User talk:Haplology

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Disappearing Talk page? And Q about furigana[edit]

It seems all your Talk page are belong to the Inivisible Man?  :)

That aside, I was wondering if you have any ideas for tweaking how furigana are generated. In most cases, the kanji term with the furigana is only one or two characters, and that works pretty well. However, longer kanji strings wind up with the furigana all bunched in the middle, in a way where it's impossible to tell which furigana belong to which kanji. Not much problem for you or me, at our points along the curve of learning Japanese, but it's probably not as useful to learners. See えた#Synonyms for one such example.

(Incidentally, maybe that etym etc. belongs on the kanji entry...)


‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:21, 24 February 2014 (UTC)

About the attention tag in [edit]

I'm afraid that it's a kanji, as ja:〆 suggests. --kc_kennylau (talk) 10:01, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

  • Ya, this is one of the odder kokuji that still gets counted as a kanji, even though it's so abbreviated it looks more like a punctuation mark. The "simplified" form of shows up in Breen's online Kanjidic lookup at (I can't link directly to the entry, but you can paste in the character on that page). There's also a good bit more detail here at the entry itself -- we might want to amend the entry to more clearly encourage users to click through to for more information. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 22:29, 28 February 2014 (UTC)

Readings that are very irregular[edit]

I'm wondering how best to handle extremely irregular readings, particularly those cases where the reading really has nothing phonetically whatsoever to do with the characters. Case in point: 紅毛#Etymology_2, which used to be read as Oranda. As it currently stands, the おらんだ reading winds up assigned to one kanji or the other, or the editor must arbitrarily split the kana up between the two kanji. However, none of the kana in the reading belong specifically to either kanji, and only belong to the entire term as an integral whole.

Perhaps it would be possible to add a param to {{ja-kanjitab}} to place the reading below the separate boxes for the kanji, and either in a separate box, or in the same box as the “Irregular” text?

TIA, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:45, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

  • Anatoli has since removed the reading, which I'm generally okay with, at least until this can be fixed. But so you can see what it looked like, have a look at the older version. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:24, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry for not advising anyone :). It just looked weird. BTW, I've also changed 木乃伊 for "Irregular" and not sure if ミイラ/みいら should be romanised as "mīra" or "miira", since it's not clear if the second "i" belongs to the second kanji (mi-i-ra) or the word should not be broken up at all, like 紅毛#Etymology_2. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:52, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
  • No worries.  :) FWIW, I think mīra with the long "i" is the way to go -- since the kanji and the reading have nothing to do with each other, there are no morpheme boundaries, and since the reading comes out of a foreign language, again there are no morpheme boundaries.  :) I suspect the long "i" happened in Japanese to approximate the strong stress of the first syllable in the source language (apparently either Portuguese or Dutch, or both), much like the long "u" in コンピュータ approximates the stress on the "u" in English computer. Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 23:18, 20 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I agree. What happened to Haplology? He has been away for quite some time now. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:03, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
  • I have no idea what Haplology has been up to. I know I go through periods of wiki-burnout, and then there are also various offline concerns that can put Wiktionary further down one's personal priority list. Hopefully he's busy living well and getting lots done, and we'll see him again in the not-too-distant future.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 00:14, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

answer to everything at once[edit]

I read the complaints and corrections above, and basically everyone, please use your own judgement and fix whatever needs to be fixed. I really don't care about any of it anymore, nor wish to engage in any of this site's discussions, nor wish to discuss anything, absolutely anything, if it can possibly be avoided. I'm sorry if I broke anything. Forgive me for leaving the task of fixing it to others. The whole kanji readings thing was probably a bad idea, as was using furigana, as was pretty much every idea I've had, but I leave it up to whoever as to what to do with it. Delete it all if you want.

It's in the rules to preserve talk pages, and commenting one out is almost as bad, so sorry and if anybody is interested in the older part, it's still there, just commented out. Haplogy () 01:27, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry to see you leaving if you decided to leave. You've made great contributions to Japanese entries, modules and templates. They are definitely going to be used, including furigana and kanji reading templates, your ideas are also reused with Korean. Not sure whose comments you refer to but if you refer to any of my own "complaints", they are really requests for a fix, not complaints! I would have fixed them myself, if I could. :) Please reconsider. I don't know who or what has upset you. I am also sure that @Eirikr:, @Wyang: also appreciate your work. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:56, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
I am not sure exactly what happened either, but you've helped me a lot with my Japanese edits and I will always remember that. If things get too hot here, take a wiki break and come back after a while. I do that sometimes! JamesjiaoTC 02:02, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks guys. I want to resume editing but I don't want to be involved in any kinds of discussions or development, and I've lost all motivation to do that stuff. If an entry isn't right or if another editor is making poor edits, I won't worry about it so much. I don't want to do any admin actions except for spam or obvious vandalism. Also @Anatoli I'm sorry for being rude here diff, I thought that another editor had done your edit, and I meant to be rude to that person instead. That other editor has a very patronizing habit of editing my code without saying anything or even waiting for me to finish editing, and I meant to be rude to that person, which would have also been inappropriate I admit. @James thanks, I appreciate your help too. Taking a break next time it gets to be too stressful is probably a good idea. Haplogy () 02:28, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
I haven't seen any rudeness or other problem in that edit. Are you sure it's the right one? No need to answer, if you don't feel like. Anyway, I don't remember you ever offending me, you have been quite responsive to request, so forget it. It's a pity you disabled e-mail contacts. Anyway, I'm on Facebook and Linkedin. It would be great if you left a way to contact you. I promise I won't annoy you. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:38, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Glad to hear that no offense was caused. That was the right edit. I'm not currently on FB but I'll be working on here, just not on anything controversial. Haplogy () 03:08, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Saw your username show up on my watchlist and wandered over to welcome you back. I know I've made an ass of myself in the past when I let things get too hot under my collar, and after reading the above, I hope my own wrong moves didn't contribute to your apparent sense of malaise. I'm glad you're back, and I look forward to your contributions. (But at the same time, no pressure.  :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 04:03, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Great to see you back - I love your complete overhaul of Japanese templates. Not exactly sure what you meant above, but perhaps relevantly, the comment in Module:ko-translit might give you a good laugh... :) Wyang (talk) 08:50, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
@Eirikr Thanks for the welcome. There's nothing to apologize for. On the contrary. It's not you, it's just everything in general I guess. The negative aspects are too much to deal with right now--deleting things, reverting things, reformatting things, making highly noticeable mistakes, and disagreeing with people and being disagreed with. Messages are kind of stressful, even if they are positive. Unfortunately those come with the territory, which is why I want to give up on the high-profile stuff and do things that are low-key and uncontroversial.
@Wyang, thanks, but I should be the one thanking you for your code, because I was only able to write the Japanese templates because of the excellent code that you wrote in Module:ja for romanizing, converting between kana scripts, etc. That was the hard work, and making ja-headword just required copying en-headword and plugging your code into that. Great work with ja-pron BTW, I want to use that asap. Thanks also for ja-new.
In the comment above, the "other editor" I was annoyed by wasn't you. Probably shouldn't have mentioned it at all. I appreciate any coding help I can get, and it was no big deal anyway. But that was a funny comment at the top of ko-translit. Clean and efficient code is possible to understand even without very descriptive variable names, but I'm afraid that some of my code is hard to understand even with long variable names and copious comments... Haplogy () 13:54, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, if you ask me, your code was clear in intent and quite a pleasure to read; at least the code I worked with. My changes were mostly cosmetic: performance improvements, stylistic fixes, code deduplication, and I might have added a "local" keyword in a few places. No reason to commit 切腹 over it.
Also, if you have concerns about how I do things, feel free to yell at me in obscene language at my talk page or wherever else. (Would be nice to also include what prompted you to do that, though.) And yes, maybe I should have given you some time to work on the module before jumping in to fix things. Keφr 17:11, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
@Kephir: I admit I was overreacting. There were moments of frustration and confusion at edit conflicts, but mostly I was glad for the help. At that particular time when I snapped at Anatoli when I meant to snap at you, I was well on burned out and stressed out for various reasons. It's no big deal. I'm still new to Lua so I appreciate all past and any future help with it, especially for modules invoked by tens of thousands of pages. Haplogy () 14:41, 24 April 2014 (UTC)


I'm surprised that you seem to think people have been upset with you. I don't do much with Japanese, but everything you've added to our coverage seems to me to be a huge, even revolutionary improvement. Anything new inevitably requires some adjustment and debugging to make it work, but the comments I've seen have been pretty much all to the effect of "this is great, but there's a problem with this minor detail."

And then there are one or two people who aren't happy with you because they're idiots and you're not (you might enjoy this priceless bit of criticism left on Ruakh's talk page last year by our favorite IP). On the whole, what you've done for Wiktionary has been noting short of remarkable, and it's all been good, as far as I can tell. Your time and your priorities are your own, but holding back because you think nobody appreciates your efforts would be your only real mistake. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:16, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Ha-ha. That comment was made by a GRAMMER Nazi. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 14:31, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Lol. It makes me so mad when people spell grammar with an e. It has always been my aim at least to be helpful and improve the dictionary as much as I can, which is admittedly a very limited area. I was sorely in need a of a wikibreak and burned out. I became irritable toward the end and I hope I didn't cause any offense to anyone. Haplogy () 05:46, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
No worries on my part.  :)   I know what you mean about burnout though, I've been there myself. And reading around, it sounds like it happens to a lot of us at some point or other, even cyclically every so often. Glad to have you back! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 18:33, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
True that. Humans were never meant to communicate over online forums, or humans never evolved to communicate over online forums, in whichever case. I hope my departure and return hasn't injected any drama into any future discussions over anything. Honestly, it's okay. In particular, I had serious doubts about how to proceed with kanji read-as subcategories, and limited them in the code to joyo kanji, except for the non-joyo kanji for whom I had already created categories. As I said before, if anybody else wants to do something different with that, it's fine. I've run out of good ideas in that area. Over time it seemed like the two pressures,
  1. to categorize where it's helpful and informative and
  2. to avoid over-categorization and empty or single-member categories
tended to reach a balance-point at joyo kanji vs. non-joyo kanji. On an intuitive level, a literate Japanese speaker, native or non-native, should be able to recall the readings of joyo kanji, but need not be expected to know the readings of less common kanji. Therefore I rewrote the code to sub-categorize by reading only for joyo kanji, with exceptions for the non-joyo kanji categories which I already made, and already regretted making.
I have a little more confidence about using furigana, because furigana is essentially part of Japanese and you can see it everywhere in Japan. Firefox does not support furigana without a plugin and my install of Windows 7 does not display the fonts well in Chrome, but I feel confident in saying that whatever technical problems exist are entirely on the shoulders of the software makers. Furigana is presented using HTML tags which have been a core part of HTML for a long time--fonts and sizes etc. are up to the clients, unless overridden with CSS--and furigana itself is an essential part of Japanese. We need not apologize or feel nervous about presenting any aspect of Japanese, with or without technical issues. Aside from technical issues, I feel confident about presenting furigana to all readers; a flaw in furigana is a flaw in Japanese itself (no disrespect meant), but there are flaws in any natural language. It's good enough for kids learning in Japan, and nobody learns better than they. Pardon me for the long spiel. I admit that I have been aggressive with forcing furigana in the past, but from now on I will try not to interfere with the contributions of other editors, and if they choose not to use furigana I'll try to let it go. Haplogy () 14:24, 24 April 2014 (UTC)


I was all ready to create Category:Japanese terms spelled with 代 read as か from Special:WantedCategories when I noticed that it had a bluelink to 代わり. How could お代わり be the only entry in the category if there was another entry identical in spelling and romanization to the part after the first syllable? It would seem that this entry and all the entries starting with "代わ-" disagree on the romanization of (and the readings section of seems to have trouble making up its mind, too). It looks like the overlap between and the following kana is being omitted, with disagreement as to whether the omitted syllables are coming from the kanji or the kana. Under the circumstances, I don't feel comfortable creating the above category or the Category:Japanese terms spelled with 代 read as かわ from the 代わり entry, and, since I know absolutely nothing about this, I thought I would bring it to your attention. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:46, 27 April 2014 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: The reading of the kanji depends on the reading of the kanji itself. So the 代 in お代わり is か, and the 代 in 代わり is also か. I'll change the kanjibox of 代わり accordingly. --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:03, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Which okurigana to include is not set in stone. So 代わり could also validly be spelled 代り, or even . Microsoft's and Apple's Japanese IMEs both even offer these as conversion candidates.
I'm not sure if that means we should have categories for "代 read as か" + "代 read as かわ" + "代 read as かわり"... but we probably should, really, even if there isn't much in them. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:59, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
I agree with Eirikr. Various okurigana forms made me wondering about this too, especially about kanji-tab setting - kun'yomi or irregular, if 代 is read as かわり. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:04, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I haven't checked this particular one but is always the case when okurigana is dropped - like a non-suru verb's endings? In this case, our entries spells out a big list of kun'yomi but would, e.g. かえり be a valid kun'yomi for 換? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:27, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
  • Depends on the particular character and reading. As a general rule, okurigana are not omitted (or are omitted less frequently) if that makes the reading ambiguous.
Specific to , this kaeru is an ichidan verb, so it would never conjugate kaerukaeri.  :)   That said, kae is a valid kun'yomi for this character.
For instead, where the verb kaeru is a godan verb and does conjugate kaerukaeri, yes, kaeri is a valid kun'yomi. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:42, 28 April 2014 (UTC)
That happens if you try to follow several topics at a time, LOL. Sorry. Yes, sure, I agree with you. I was trying to find a godan verb where such kun'yomi was missing @Wiktionary :) I'm sure I've seen some. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:52, 28 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for not replying, everyone. I didn't mean to ignore anyone. I'm not sure I understand the question, but apparently everyone else did and I guess it got resolved. The whole kanji readings business works really well with Chinese readings, i.e. on'yomi, but kun'yomi is infuriatingly vague and inconsistent. Probably because (99% of) kanji come form China, and kanji were forced onto native Japanese words like a square peg into a round hole. When there are multiple forms of the same term differing in okurigana, I would recommend adding readings to kanjitab to the lemma page only, and omitting readings on alternative forms. I hope I haven't created an intractable mess with all of this. Haplogy () 15:32, 6 May 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, I agree. Re: "kanji were forced onto native Japanese words like a square peg into a round hole". Well, as a result, Japanese has the most ridiculous, unpredictable and one of the most difficult to learn writing system. That made it very popular and interesting, though. :)
Don't worry for not replying for too long.
I have a request for you. Only if you feel like doing this again. You helped me add accelerated Pinyin creation. Now the structure of Chinese entries is changing and wee need to add it. Please let me know if you want to have a go. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:33, 7 May 2014 (UTC)


I am not sure in which context this term is used as an adjectival noun with the meaning "heavily wounded; dying". Could you please share your thoughts? Did you perhaps mean to explain 大事 in 大事に至らない in [1]? If so, I would parse it as a noun in that context. Whym (talk) 14:18, 24 May 2014 (UTC)

@Whym: Sorry for the late reply. I've occupied elsewhere. Yes, I think you're right. I don't know where I got the idea that it mean "heavily wounded". I can't remember if that was my idea or if I just copied another user's text from another entry or something like that. Feel free to correct it if you want, thanks --Haplogy () 01:45, 12 October 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for your reply. Looking into this again, I have found what looks like a citation to support the sense - いと大事にはあらねど、起き臥し悩みたまふを in 落窪物語 (10th century) via 日本国語大辞典. I'm not too sure because I'm that confident in parsing old/middle Japanese, though. I have left a note at Talk:大事 and I'd appreciate if you could revisit and help with this. Take care. Whym (talk) 03:44, 14 November 2014 (UTC)
Interesting. I'd like to help but I am very unfamiliar with anything other than modern Japanese, but Eirikr knows more about older Japanese, so I hereby pass the baton to him: @Eirikr: "ping!" (imagine a ping sound) --Haplogy () 07:39, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
  • Here's the full def:

4 (形動)普通の状態ではなく、困ったりてこずったりする物事やそのさま。 ①困難なこと。手ごわいこと。*平家‐五「修行といふはいか程の大事やらん」②危険なこと。生死にかかわる一大事。*浄・近江源氏先陣館‐六「頼家公御大事とならんとき」③命にかかわるほど、病気や傷が重いこと。危篤。重傷。*落窪‐三「いと大事にはあらねど、起き臥しなやみ給ふを」④不都合なこと。いけないこと。さしさわり。→だいじない。*伎・傾情吾嬬鑑‐序幕「お武家方の前へ袴も着ずに、こんな形で出るもをかしいものだ。大事あるまいか」

Sub-senses ② and ③ are quite similar. Rough breakdown of the quote in ③:

 (いと) (ito, most) 大事 (だいじ) (daiji, grave) (ni, particle: adverb) (ha, particle: contrastive wa) あらねど (aranedo, although not) 、 () () (okifushi, getting up and down; waking and sleeping, especially fitful)  (なや) (nayami, suffering)  (たま) (tamafu, subject honorific) (o, particle: indicating admiration or impressiveness)

Although it wasn't the gravest [illness / situation], [he / she] truly suffered fitful nights and days unable to sleep.

Hope that helps! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:01, 19 November 2014 (UTC)
Really helpful, thanks a lot. I have edited the entry to add quotations including your translation. Please feel free to improve the entry, when you have time. Whym (talk) 11:46, 23 November 2014 (UTC)

右上, 右下, 左上, 左下[edit]

I noticed you created 右下 in 2012, and I created the rest today. They are compounds in Japanese, but how about the English translations? We don’t have an entry for bottom right, but isn’t it fixed enough at least to have a translation table? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:47, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

いる vs. 居る[edit]

See Talk:いる. While I'm not qualified to judge the merits, as far as edit history goes, he's actually got a point (a first?): the detailed content at 居る was copypasted from いる, not the other way around. That's why the usage note at 居る says いる is the main entry. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:05, 2 November 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure what the question or objection is about, but in any case I don't mind if another editor wants to rewrite the entries to their satisfaction. --Haplogy () 01:50, 3 November 2014 (UTC)