User talk:Hirabutor

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Again, welcome! --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:48, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Nshanyan[edit]

I note, that you use Nshanyan's website for etymologies a lot. It is obligatory to cite the sources like this. --Vahag (talk) 18:12, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll catch up on it. --Hirabutor (talk) 18:30, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Chuvash[edit]

You do not need to provide transliteration for Chuvash, as it is transliterated automatically per WT:CV TR. If you prefer another transliteration scheme for Chuvash, you can edit the table here. --Vahag (talk) 19:31, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Also, please note the following formatting issues. If you do not understand something, please let me know. --Vahag (talk) 19:35, 23 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding Vahag :) --Hirabutor (talk) 11:33, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

{{also}}[edit]

You are using the {{also}} template incorrectly. Its purpose is to link to pages with minor spelling variations, not cognates. For example robe links to Robe, robé and røbe. — Ungoliant (Falai) 08:39, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

You are also using {{term}} incorrectly, among other things. See these corrections. — Ungoliant (Falai) 08:42, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks for reminding ;) --Hirabutor (talk) 22:51, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Proto-Altaic[edit]

Hi there. That protolangauge/language family is kind of controversial, so it's better to tone down derivations from such reconstructions, and always provide references in form of books or papers. References should be provided in ===References=== section using templates, which should specify work name and page number so that others can verify that you didn't made up your reconstructions. Data on the Tower of Babel website is taken from books anyway :) For the wording, I'd suggest possibly form Proto-Altaic *X, with cognates such as Y, Z or something similar. Cheers. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 04:45, 10 November 2013 (UTC)

Thank you for reminding :) I'll fix the Proto-Altaic sections with "possibly". Do we also have templates for "Tower of Babel" sources? --Hirabutor (talk) 11:31, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
See this edit for the usage of {{etym}} with tut parameter (which stand for Proto-Altaic), the new template {{R:tut-pro:SDM}} (which I misspelled SDB originally) which references Starostin-Dybo-Mudrak's dictionary whose data is imported at the ToB web site, and the usage of {{term}} to link Proto-Altaic reconstructions, as well as to link individual entries, even for those provided only in transcriptions (see Mongolian and Korean). You could also create individual pages for Proto-Turkic or Proto-Altaic reconstructions so that this data becomes available to all the languages whose etymology sections link to them. For page numbers (the page= parameter for the reference template) I used the PDF version. There is also an additional but optional vol= for volume number but I doubt you have the paper edition :P --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 16:16, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • My changes have stirred some controversy, and got the abovementioned edit ultimately reverted - perhaps you could join the discussion as well? The whole notion of having long-range etymologies is apparently being challenged. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 18:32, 10 November 2013 (UTC)
  • I started a vote on Proto-Altaic which you'll be interested in. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 07:49, 19 November 2013 (UTC)

Proper use of {{etyl}}[edit]

When you copy parts of etymologies to new pages, please make sure to fix the etyl templates. {{etyl}} takes two language codes as parameters: the first is the source language, and the second is the destination language. The second parameter should always be either the language code of the entry itself, or "-". That's because the etyl template doesn't just give the name of the language, it also adds the page to a category- unless you specifically tell it not to, by making "-" the second parameter. The name of the category is created automatically from the language codes in the template in the format "[[Category:" + <language name from the second code> + " terms derived from" + <language name from the first code>]].

That's fine when the language of the first language code is an actual source of the term and the language of the second language code matches that of the entry. In a Turkish entry, it's definitely a good idea to use {{etyl|tr|otk}}{{etyl|otk|tr}} in the etymology if the term is inherited from Old Turkic: that will put the entry into [[Category:Turkish terms derived from Old Turkic]]. If you're listing cognates, though, you don't want that second parameter. For instance, {{etyl|xng|mn}} will add the page to the as-yet-nonexistent [[Category:Mongolian terms derived from Middle Mongolian]]. Instead, you should use {{etyl|xng|-}}, which will just produce "Middle Mongolian" without a category. Until the entries were fixed, [[Category:Mongolian terms derived from Middle Mongolian]] contained pretty much all of the Turkish terms where you mentioned Middle Mongolian. Please be more careful. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 07:56, 13 November 2013 (UTC)

Using {{term}}[edit]

Please note this change to your etymology section. You are linking all the terms to "otk", which is not what you intended to do. The parameter "otk" should appear as "lang=otk", and the English translation should be inculded as the third parameter.

This also means that you should go back and correct all the problems you have created in the past couple of days with this error. --EncycloPetey (talk) 16:52, 14 November 2013 (UTC)

Template:R:tut-pro:SDM[edit]

Please use the template like this. --Vahag (talk) 19:47, 18 November 2013 (UTC)

direk[edit]

Hi Hirabutor, In direk#Etymology you are confusing two Turkic etymons that are not related to each other: "tree, poplar" and "base, support".

Please also check тирәк - might help. Borovi4ok (talk) 07:26, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

Ops Sorry, I'll fix it as soon as posssible. -- Hirabutor (talk) 17:27, 5 December 2013 (UTC)

ateş[edit]

Hi Hirabutor, In ateş#Etymology you have used data from the Bashkir article ут. You need to change the Old Turkic tags into Old Turkic so that this article gets automatically categorized as "Turkish terms...", not as Bashkir terms.

BTW, the actual etymology data also looks doubtful. Cheers, Borovi4ok (talk) 11:32, 24 December 2013 (UTC)

Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/tele[edit]

There are a lot of mistakes on this page; even the title is incorrect. Where did you get the information from? —CodeCat 13:43, 8 April 2014 (UTC)

These are the sources: 1, 2. - Hirabutor (talk) 16:57, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
I suspected as much... That site really isn't very reliable. First of all, they include Nostratic etymologies which are widely discredited. Secondly, they rely on very old, pre-laryngeal reconstructions (using things like "ə" which modern Indo-European linguists don't use). And thirdly, they seem to have encoding issues as well (using some strange character ɵ instead of þ for Germanic languages), which you copied straight into the entry, thereby propagating the error. —CodeCat 17:04, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Should we remove it then? or should we ask some other guys to improve the page? - Hirabutor (talk) 21:41, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
Does “Anadolu” in Nişanyan Sözlük help here? - Hirabutor (talk) 21:45, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
- Hirabutor (talk) 21:48, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
It can be improved. The existence of the root as such doesn't seem in doubt, the descendants look ok for the most part. But it should be moved to its modern laryngeal-based form, *telh₂-. —CodeCat 22:20, 9 April 2014 (UTC)
...and it seems we already have that. —CodeCat 22:21, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Yes, Hirabutor, please be very careful when taking information from http://starling.rinet.ru/. It is not very reliable. And please don't use the {{R:tut-pro:SDM}} for linking to all pages on that site. The Altaic sections are indeed based on that printed work, but not others. In this case, the Indo-European page is based on outdated Walde-Pokorny and the Nostratic page—on Illyč-Svityč and an unpublished work by Aron Dolgopolski. --Vahag (talk) 15:38, 10 April 2014 (UTC)

Proto-Altaic appendices[edit]

Hi! According to the result of the vote (Wiktionary:Votes/2013-11/Proto-Altaic), cognates are to be listed in appendices, not in mainspace entries. I've created Appendix:Proto-Altaic/mi̯àga as an example and used a template to ensure bogatyr links to it.
PS, what does "MC" mean? Middle Chinese? If so, please spell it out — wiki is not paper, so it is preferable to spell it out to avoid confusion. :) Likewise, please use words like "from", "to", "whence" instead of arrows ("<", ">"). Thanks,
- -sche (discuss) 22:53, 14 June 2014 (UTC)

Based on the entries düdük, бай and öküz, I've created Appendix:Proto-Altaic/tū́ti, Appendix:Proto-Altaic/bēǯu and Appendix:Proto-Altaic/p`ŏk`i (-ŕV) (~-e). If you could add references to those appendices documenting who suggests those reconstructions, it'd be great. Thanks, - -sche (discuss) 16:05, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Hirabutor, you would to better creating uncontroversial Proto-Turkic entries. Because something like Appendix:Proto-Altaic/mi̯àga is so uncertain, I do not feel comfortable adding descendants to it. --Vahag (talk) 19:13, 15 June 2014 (UTC)

Origins of the word "Aryan"[edit]

Hi Hirabutor. Would you care to comment at [1]? Someone doubts the origins of the word "Aryan". Joshua Jonathan (talk) 04:23, 10 September 2014 (UTC)