User talk:Sarri.greek/2021

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Sarri.greek ♫

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Emiliokyriakakis

@Sarri.greek Καλησπέρα, ζητάω συγνώμη για το πρόβλημα που δημιούργησα, έχοντας άγνοια του τι ακριβώς μπορώ και πρέπει να κάνω μέσα στο wiki. Σκοπός μου ήταν να δω πως δουλεύει, πως μπορώ να κάνω εγγραφές, για να προχωρήσω προσθέτοντας διάφορα στοιχεία πελατών μου και όχι για να “διαφημίσω το όνομά μου” όπως αναφέρετε. Θα ήθελα την βοήθειά σας, να με κατευθύνεται στο τι πρέπει να διαβάσω και ν’ ακολουθήσω, έτσι ώστε να μπορέσω να λειτουργήσω σωστά και χωρίς προβλήματα. Ευχαριστώ, εκ των προτέρων για την βοήθειά σας, αναγνωριστικό φραγής #7707.[User:Emiliokyriakakis]

2021

Happy New Year

@Sarri.greek — Κι εσύ! — Saltmarsh. 07:22, 1 January 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh Yes! Happy new year -as happy as possible, anyway- I forgot that we spoke before the new year arrived. So, Happy New Year to all of you! I am taking a small break, but I will resume edits soon. For the moment I mainly revert bad edits at el.wikt... that sort of thing. Thanks! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:54, 17 January 2021 (UTC)

ppp ξαποσταίνω

Hello @Sarri.greek, please can you help. We have ppp = ξαποστασμένος (ξαποσταμένος), whereas Mpampi, Jiordanidou, et al only have the 2nd form. Is this a grammatical nicety or a mistake? Athens was in the news here last week, but only for snow! Has theUK hijacked all the Covid vaccine? - have many come to Greece? Meanwhile, glad to see you, hope all is well. Best wishes — Saltmarsh. 07:03, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

Yes, @Saltmarsh, snow was great, but created problems -some people had no electricity for many days-. Vaccines were handled badly, i think, from EU. At the moment, th 65+ are vaccinated. I guess, you had been too. I am waiting for my turn... but it will take some time.

Participles: I write what I find at the above mentioned sources +DSMG. Without having studied the matter, my first thoughts would be: The 1st -ασμένος, (I found only one at google) would imply a hypothetical passive^{no passive for this verb} aorist *ξαποστάστηκα from *στάστηκα which does not occur, while the form ..-στάμενος without [s] does for -αινω verbs from ἵστημι, the troublemaker irregular verb!!!

At the moment, i am checking 16.000 ipa changes at el.wikt... Attt last, we are swithing to /e/ and /o/ for IPA. Sooo much work to be done, and no volunteers for it... ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:19, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Yes - we've both been vaccinated - and it is warming up here, w:crocuses are flowering. With reference to "Sooo much work to be done…" the OXford English dictionary was started in the 1850/60s and they had only published G in 1900. — Saltmarsh. 07:40, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

zed

@Sarri.greek I have to go with the flow, although it's in my nature to do the opposite. Shakespeare said somewhere or other "Thou whoreson zed! Thou unnecessary letter!" But the university presses, the Times and Mr Trump's lot insist on -ize, although most other Britons prefer -ise. Apparently we have the Greek -ίζω to thank for the former! Καλό μήνα Μάρτιο! — Saltmarsh. 07:13, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

a! @Saltmarsh, about the spelling 'categorize'.. (frankly, I am totally confused with 'Oxford' spelling which is british and british -ise, which is british too...) Why not try to find a neuter solution. Emmmmmm ... How about: category=! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:19, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Most English people (and probably Scots, Welsh and Irish) will use -ise, but publishers will often have a house rule that -ize should be used and authors overruled. The -ise spelling may be a lost cause to, we shall see! — Saltmarsh. 19:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh. I am rethinking. All this happens because of e,g, cats with stem-markers

like Category:Greek consonant-stem verbs in -n- as in Category:Greek 1st conjugation groups.

The Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/el categorised the stems as seen in the appendix notes. I made the parameter |category=Category:{category|} but if the title ever changes, that will be a problem. We need a stem-consonant marker parameter, to be safe. Also, Category:Greek irregular verbs may apply as extra anywhere e.g. βγαίνω is irregular, also with -n ending consonant.

So could we also add a i= and a |consonant= too? Maybe at Template:el-conjug-subcat? Or it can be done at each template when needed at Category:Greek verb inflection-table templates (new)

{{#if:{{{i|}}}<!-- irregular cat added as extra with i=1 or i=yes, ...
	<!--|{{#switch:{{{i|}}}<!--
		-->|i|irr|irreg|irregular=[[Category:Greek irregular verbs]]<!--
		-->|#default=<!--
	-->}}<!--
-->}}<!--
-->{{#if:{{{category|}}}|[[Category:{{{category|}}}]]<!-- free 
else
-->|{{#if:{{{consonant|}}}|[[Category:Greek consonant-stem verbs in -{{{consonant|}}}-]]<!-- as in Category:Greek consonant-stem verbs in -n-
	else
-->|....
....
-->}} }}<!-- close |consonant= close |category=
... etc if there is more

They modulists have not done anything for 2nd conjugation, which is much more complicated, and i think only A1 A2 B C and Combinations are enough categproes. For the moment. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 11:15, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Do you really need my comment on this - it would take I while for me to get to grips with what you are asking! — Saltmarsh. 19:07, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, the auto cat created super groups, and we need to link to them. That's all. Some cats, or individual verbs will go under them e.g. Category:Greek consonant-stem verbs in -n-

I was thinking of an addition to Template:el-conjug-subcat ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:17, 1 March 2021 (UTC)

ιός

• Thanks @Sarri.greek for setting me straight with "creme de la creme" - I did come across that somehwere and thought I was misinterpreting the Greek! Often they are one and the same thing!
• Sorry to question your words at [[1]] :) Babiniotis doesn't mention venom etc, but in my pocket Maria Mandala the first gloss for ιός mentions "το δηλητήριο που χύνουν μερικά ζώα όταν δαγκάνουν ή κεντρίζουν". ιός and φιδιού do get some hits on Google, although I have insufficent courage to interpret what is found. Is Mandala out of date? — Saltmarsh. 15:24, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh. She is a respected lexicographer. See her explanation? It is a specific poison, the one mentioned in ancient greek. She explains compounds like ιοβόλος (poison-emitting) which is used only for snakes. Also. Most dictionaries explain the ancient sense (without being very clear about which greek.phase they are talking about) It is very useful in order to understand the newer sense. I do not have the particular dictionary, and do not know if there is a sign for A, M N (ancient mediaeval new). yes, One could say «ο ιός αυτού του φιδιού» using its ancient sense. But, truly, if you ask any doctor what ιός is, it is always virus and never poison, unless we are quoting Hippocratic mediacal texts, or mediaeval. The 'mentioning' of ancient words as in their initial senses in modern texts is very frequent, but that does not mean that the word/sense has entered the lexicon of the modern language. I would take it away -not to confuse readers- I would rather place it at Etymology section. Also, I think there is a little note next to the related term ιοβόλος ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 15:37, 11 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Thanks, my pocket edition is quite chunky but still has little space for notes or explanation. If it has been used since 1453 should that gloss be marked as obsolete - else should it be remmoved? — Saltmarsh. 06:40, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, I do not know this dictionary and how Mandala uses Etymology abbreviations. But perhaps, it was her opinion. To explain what it really means. In katharevousa, probably it would be valid too. I have similar problems very often with senses differring in various dict. (I only have 3 dictionaries; only one is old and huge). Not to mention an encyclo sitting at the corridor, where the lemma Churchill ends with: He is minister of Navy Affairs... :) :) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:58, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek If your enclopaedia is Britannica that sounds like the 11th (or thereabouts) edition which I think was considered to be the "Gold Standard". Any way my little Mandala has little other than a definition occasionally and I don't think any etymologies. If "ιός as venom" has been used since 1453 I gues we should have it but labelled a obsolete — or else that glos should be deleted. — Saltmarsh. 14:18, 12 March 2021 (UTC)

παραέδωσα

@Sarri.greek Good to hear from you. Is this idiomatic? Can we talk about it? I only get:

• Σου παραέδωσα θάρρος!
  • You give (me) too much courage!
• Γίνε πιο ευγενικός!
  • Βecome politer!

— Saltmarsh. 06:49, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh Thanks! I didn't know how to translate it. The colour of the phrase would be: I allowed too much... free hand to you (here courage means: insolence, you have transcended the limits. I thought there might be some idiomatic phrase for it. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:47, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Hmmm… I cannot think of any idiom - I should have used more word to get the sense.

Is it that "your words have given me enough courage, to tell you that you should be more polite"

I'm afraid the "old grey cells" («μικρά γκρίζα κύτταρα» - is that used in Greek) are dying of too fast, remembering the right word (and the names of people) becomes more difficult!. — Saltmarsh. 08:00, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, mine neither... :) I thought this is a Poirot phrase... Thanks anyway! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:03, 18 March 2021 (UTC)

Mixed gender nouns in -έας

Good morning @Sarri.greek, hoping all is well with you.
I have duplicated {{el-nM-εας-εις-1}} giving {{el-nM-εας-εις-1b}}. Would I be correct in thinking that feminine singulars in "-έως" are restricted to those with Ancient derivation? Bikipedia doesn't always seem to show this (viz. el:αερομεταφορέας. Or have these old forms crept over into some neologisms? — Saltmarsh. 07:12, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Good morning @Saltmarsh! Yes, I'm fine! All modern -έας derive from ancient ending -εύς (gen. -έως). The fminines too, which are identical: o συγγραφέας, η συγγραφέας. Modern genitive: -έα, plus, for ancient or quasi ancient words +the ancien variant -έως. For example a very modern word like αερομεταφορέας, βιντεοπροβολέας (I think it is a videoprojector), one would not choose to use the -έως genitive. Your example βασιλέας is a direct variant of the βασιλεύς, so, I would not choose it as catchword. αερομεταφορέας is a better word, still, some people use -έως for it too. Examples at el.wikt.Appendix-έας ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:23, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Ο! @Saltmarsh i need to recheck the whole Cateogry at el.wikt. I have chosen a wrong catchword too. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 07:50, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Category 'αμφορέας'@el.witk: most of them are +έως. Only some VERY modern appliances and gadgets would not take a second -έως genitive. I will check the words, and review here too. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:23, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Ευχαριστώ πολύ @Sarri.greek - I'll wait for your final recommendations for the catchwords. Is the footnote OK? — Saltmarsh. 19:24, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh I have corrected things at el.wikt, Thaaaank you!. Now they are masc. 'αμφορέας' Category and mixed gender 'συγγραφέας' Category . ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 19:33, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Το πρωί! — Saltmarsh. 19:35, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Politonic technicality

Merci @Sarri.greek my Φύλακας άγγελος! I have set about rewriting (new) About Greek yet again - and the original (from 2007) is too long and probably not much help! Up until now I have cut and pasted politonic diacritics - Windows help implies when choosing a Greek keyboard in Windows that "politonic" should be choice. Maybe the Windows version sold in Greece has this facility, but mine doesn't —and when all is considered I will probably never need to type a lot of politonic. But how do you accomplish it? — Saltmarsh. 14:21, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh I have no such keyboard either! -too complicated- I copypaste! See edit tool at bottom of page -when editing- 'Greek' has all the polytonic symbols. Or, I open a tabwindow with something like el:Παράρτημα:Γραμματοσειρές (ελληνικά), for which you, my dear mentor, have been the inspiration with your nice appendices. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:32, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh PS but i can write whatever you need, do not bother with it! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 14:37, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Merci bien! @Sarri.greek Mercifully I don't need to use polytonic (I thought there was something not quite right about politonic !) very often, I have a poly-alphabet amongst my files with enlarged characters - very difficult to see the difference at normal size.

F's friend in Salonica was due to have her first vaccination last week - unfortunately she developed shingles (έρπης-ζωστήρας) and it couldn't be done - have you had yours yet! — Saltmarsh. 16:49, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, oh dear! she was unlucky. Our age-platform opens next week, and I guess, the waiting list is large, so i expect it will take some time until I am vaccinated. Thanks for your concern! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 16:58, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Entries from an anon

Hello, I noticed earlier that an anon has been adding Greek words without using a headword template. Perhaps you can inform them as to how they should use those templates? They're also adding the entries to Category:Kaliarda, which has no explanation as to what it means...User: The Ice Mage ^{talk to meh} 19:46, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Oh! dear me! I just saw this message. Sorry @The Ice Mage but this /2021 page does not alert me automatically, and I have been busy elsewhere.

Thank you, thank you for this note. The anon uses a good source, I 'll chek the lemmata and add some explantion for Kaliarda. I am very grateful for your note, and I am sorry that my answer is so late. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 11:45, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek No problem, and thanks for your contributions. :) User: The Ice Mage ^{talk to meh} 11:49, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

οικονομάω

Here's hoping all is well with you @Sarri.greek. I don't see any problems with #2.2 — but #2.3, I'm not sure that we have term in English or I can't think of one (the little grey cells). Is the sense: "economies have enabled us to 'add to' a product" eg (1) printing the book will cost less, so we can add those appendices; (2) the cost of engines has dropped, so we can include a sun roof in that model? — Saltmarsh. 05:25, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Good morning @Saltmarsh. All is fine here, thank you. Yes, your examples are good. (sense 2.3 is quite rare). You know that normally I do not do definitions and translations, especially in expressions like that. My english is not that good. Rossyxan is an expert because he is bilingual. Helllooo Ross! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 05:30, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek: I've reworded it slighly but perhaps @Rossyxan can improve it. — Saltmarsh. 05:50, 7 May 2021 (UTC)

Administrator

@Sarri.greek — I have long intended to ask you if you would like to be nominated as an Admin. I've put it off an number of times because you are very conscientious and might feel you have been lumbered (=overburdened). Having said that I take part in practically no housekeeping duties - so please say!! — Saltmarsh. 11:24, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, my mentor and teacher! you honour me very much thinking of it. This student is very flattered! But Greek has you and does not need another admin. Also, I cannot possibly be an admin in english.wikt because my English is not good enough: you see that I never do definitions and I avoid translations in general. The only technical thing that I cannot do at the moment is delete pages, which is ok, because they can always be deleted by you or somebody else.

At el.wikt, things are very difficult, tooo many corrections of old deprecated pages etc. Here, the Mod.Greek section looks perfect, because you have been taking care of it all these years.

Thank you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 11:32, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I'm only sorry that my presence on el.wikt is not greater :-( — Saltmarsh. 11:38, 12 May 2021 (UTC)

άπελπις

Καλημέρα @Sarri.greek Ι always have a problem interpreting the abbrev declensions shown in dcitionaries! Does a Greek person know instinctively how to fill the gaps? Would you be able to help? Template:el-decl-adj-irreg Ευχαριστώ — Saltmarsh. 05:43, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh Hello. no! a greek persond would not know who to infeclt, and most people would not know the word at all. (I added the corrections). This declension is in the pattern of ancient εὔελπις 3rd declenion and katharevousa switched it in its opposite by adding α- privative. el:ἄπελπις. Masc=Fem. Vocative repeats nominative - some simplifiation of acc.plural and singular of εὔελπις. And this is the reason that modern.greek grammars like Holton's do not teach it and omit vocatives in similar situations. The truth is, that in such nouns we exit modern greek. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:00, 25 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks @Sarri.greek: — I think I might have guessed correctly, it almost folows the Katharevousa el:ἄπελπις shown in Βικι. — Saltmarsh. 05:59, 26 May 2021 (UTC)

άπεφθος

@Sarri.greek I'm afraid it's me, may I bother you again! This word seems in most sources to follow

• Mpampi/Kriara giving "pure/genuine" (mostly for metals) and declines ος/η/ο.
• But my pocket Maria Mandala gives "ο βρασμένος" (declining ος/ος/ον) and then says "currently" = "pure" eg άπεφθος χρυσός.

Do I interpret this correctly as: current usage = pure/purified, declining ος/η/ο. Dated usage = boiled (?) declining ος/ος/ον. The only way I can make "boiled" mean "purified" would be "boiled water" (or perhaps "distilled") — Saltmarsh. 06:24, 31 May 2021 (UTC).

«Καλή βδομάδα» @Saltmarsh! What a nice word. Yes, the pure/genuine translation is correct. You should never look at Kriaras, because it is strictly mediaeval greek. Now, Mandala, -the word 'currently- apparently, gives ancient senses too, as a help for understanding the word. I remember our discussion about ιός. The ancient literal sense is 'boil down, purify by boiling' (see LSJ) the verb ἀφέψω αφ-ἕψω, ἑφθός (hephthós, “boiled”). The modern άπεφθος-η-ο sense, is 'purified' (the boiling part is not necessarily inferred) and it is used for gold («άπεφθος χρυσός»), gold sovereigns or other metals Georgakas-άπεφθος has this nice phrase by the late essayist Marios Ploritis «το άπεφθο μέταλλο της φιλίας - the άπεφθο (pure) metal of our friendship» ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 13:07, 31 May 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ — an interesting lesson as well!! And "καλό καλοκαίρι" to you (that seems like a ταυτολογία), οι γαλαζοπαπαδίτσες are about fledge in a nestbox outside my window. After a cold wet May we may be looking forward to a "flaming" June. The English - as usual - talking about the weather. — Saltmarsh. 05:18, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh! you are amazing. I did not know el:w:Γαλαζοπαπαδίτσα... Happy summer to all of you! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 05:22, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I have seen great tits (w:el:καλόγερος - what a lot of meanings) in Greece, actually on Crete, but not blue tits. — Saltmarsh. 05:33, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

English to Greek

How do you say “Nico’s Supplies” in Greek? —(((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 23:12, 3 June 2021 (UTC)

Hello, @Romanophile, sorry for delayed answer. I am not sure of the kind of shop Nico has... supplies of goods? This would be προμήθεια in plurals: προμήθειες. Also, abstrcat noun for 'supplying' = εφοδιασμός, but it would not be suitable for a shop's name if it sells e.g. car spare parts. Here are some examples from eur.lex mainly. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 04:12, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

So if Nico sells brooms, ladders, and other janitorial equipment, would he call his shop Προμήθειες Νίκου? —(((Romanophile))) ♞ (contributions) 20:22, 6 June 2021 (UTC)

July is going !

Best wishes @Sarri.greek - a chance for an advanced "Happy August"!
Please may I ask you about « είδα κι απόειδα »

• Βικι seems to say « I achieve something with patient endeavour »
• whereas my el-en dictionary say « I lost my patience » or « having no alternative »
  

I fail to see that these translations have anything in common!!

— Saltmarsh. 08:25, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Hello, boss! @Saltmarsh, Ι apologise for my absence from en.witk for so long... Ι have some difficult verbs to do, and I need to sit down and to them.

Your dictionary is correct, and the Βικι is wrong: one of my many tasks is to lemmatise all expressions.

απο- here, is an intensifier. The meaning is: I looked carefully at the situation, (είδα-βλέπω)), and I rechecked once again realising and despairing because there is nothing more to do...(απόειδα, but not the sense of αποβλέπω).

So, it is not exactly 'lost my patience' but 'lost any hope of doing anything better about it. I have to content myself with what I have, and not seek any better solution. It needs an ux. Ι shall try one.

Hope you are having a nice summer. Your ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:55, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

The Papyros Dictionary says: βεβαιώθηκα και απογοητεύθηκα = I assured myself, and was disappointed. +from DSMG.. after many unsuccesful efforts. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ |

Apologies are never necessary @Sarri.greek :) — all is well!!

We have a last been able to see the g-kids again and next month we have a week in Wales with them (neighbouring cottages, lets hope it doesn't rain — do you remember hearing about the frequency of rain in Wales ? In my bit of eastern England we only get a bit more than Athens (50cm compared with 40mm, in west Wales is over a metre).

With reference to your gloss — I am not sure about "assured"

• I am assured and disappointed after many unsuccessful efforts.
• After many unsuccessful efforts I am resigned to the situation

Where "resigned" means being "disappointed and accepting"

— Saltmarsh. 10:30, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh! Long heatwave here! Wales better! Please change my english Thaaank you ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 10:47, 31 July 2021 (UTC)

Ο Αύγουστος είναι εδώ!

Hi @Sarri.greek - please look at ρολόι • - is it OK? I have created {{el-n-gen-ff}} (I should probably have thought of it before), it is intended to make it easier for nouns like ρολόι. Entry if free-form, anything wanted in the out put - including links - should be put in the argument. Thanks once again for any help which you can give! — Saltmarsh. 11:38, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, heatwave, plus fires, here. Your template is perfect. Very few words get the 'obsolete' sequence -i think, found in some old books or words in literature. Checking -the numbers may increase, of course- el:Appendix for τσάι& ρολόι I see 26/32 words for γιού and only 4 at the ιού Κατηgory. O! I should also add there the source for these forms: because I cannot remember at the moment, in which text or which dictionary they were found. So, you could rename the τσάι category to Category:Greek nouns declining like 'τσάι' (only with -γιού) and keep the ρολόι Category for both sequences: I should do the same: combine the two variants! Thank you for the nice idea. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 12:27, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

αποβορβόρωση

Thanks @Sarri.greek - I shouldn't have used the word turpitude in that definition - one of the only "wrong doings" that academics could be sacked for was "gross moral turpitude"!

My only question is can the term be applied figuratively ie (after the English Civil War) theatres were closed - being viewed as immoral. Thanks so much — Saltmarsh. 05:37, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, I am sorry, I could not understand the definitions of turpitude either.

Yes, some writers may use αποβορβόρωση as its kataharevousa meaning: literally the combining words: απο- (take away) βόρβορος (the filth, the unethical, the bad things), but today is rare and εξεζητημένος ^{(elaborate+pretentious+sophisticated all 3 together)}. Usual words for 'cleanup bad things' would be εκκαθάριση κάθαρση or some periphrastic expressions. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 06:12, 1 September 2021 (UTC)

Sour grapes

@Sarri.greek — sour grapes (from Aesop's Fables: an expression of excuse about something that you want but cannot have for oe reason or another) is quite common in English. w:The Fox and the Grapes but couldn't find it in Biki. The only references in English dictionaries were "όμφαξ" and "όμφακες εισίν", neither appear very common on Google. Do you have a more common phrase in MODERN Greek? — Saltmarsh^🢃 19:47, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

Hello, boss!! @Saltmarsh, we say it either in the original ὄμφακές εἰσιν (όμφακες εισί(ν)) < ὄμφαξ f (ómphax) = αγουρίδα f (agourída) = unripe grape,

or with a mod.greek proverb, a brief summary of the story: "όσα δε φτάνει η αλεπού τα κάνει κρεμαστάρια" : all that the fox cannot reach, she calls 'unripe grapes' +literally: she makes them fruit hang-to-ripe (όσος, δεν, φτάνω, αλεπού κάνω κρεμαστάρι (kremastári) is a Demotic word for κρεμάω hang fruits to make them ripe.) My greetings to all the family! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 20:07, 16 October 2021 (UTC) + @Saltmarsh forgot the literal trans.

Thanks for finding that @Sarri.greek, I must remember "Βικιθήκη" in future. I hope that you are well and keeping your spirits up! We are both well- but my grandson in Surrey brought COVID home from school so all four of them caught it. Needless to say he was right as rain a couple of days later his sister recovered similarly, but M&D both had coughs, headaches and temperature for a week or ten days. We hope that they don'y get any μακροπρόθεσμα symptoms. — Saltmarsh^🢃 05:55, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

Ω! I am glad everything went smoothly. @Saltmarsh. The situation is difficult for families with children, or with young people who have to work in crowded places. We, older ones, have the luxury of keeping safe. I do not contact people anymore apart from a strict number of 2-3 friends, who are even more careful than me. Food is brought by internet orders once a month, we are vaccinated, so there is hardly any chance we get it.

Going to el.wikt to do some patrolling, and I'm coming back to my verbs!! Need to make a template for -άμαι verbs like κοιμάμαι. I was thinking of calling it 2nd.conj-C (since it is neither of class A or B-ούμαι) ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:34, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

άπολις

Greetings! I was going to create άπολις and it raised some queries:

1. main translations:

• stateless, "without nationality", homeless (person)
• cityless (country, region)

Βικι has more but I wonder how important they are.

2. after guidance a stab at the inflection:

 άπολις         άπολις        άπολι
 απόλιδος       απόλιδος      απόλιδος
 άπολι/άπολιν   άπολι/άπολιν  άπολι
 άπολι         άπολι         άπολι
 απόλιδες          απόλιδες          απόλιδα
 απολίδων/απόλιδων απολίδων/απόλιδων απολίδων/απόλιδων
 απόλιδες          απόλιδες/απόλιδας απόλιδα
 απόλιδες          απόλιδες          απόλιδα

Is this ancient or modern! Many thanks — Saltmarsh^🢃 08:08, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

ooops @Sarri.greek — I forgot to ping you — Χρόνια πολλά! — Saltmarsh^🢃 07:36, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

ω! thank you , thank you (howww did youfind out!). This is ancient. Your decl table looks fine, there are options/flactuations at masc.voc. = άπολι(ς) / i do not know about the neu, i do not know if it existed.., I have to come back to you (need to make the ancient table first). I checked at AncienGr.Nouns3rdDecl here, but there is no example ἄπολις or ἄπατρις & the similar. (I have to add your second genitive.pl is el:άπατρις). Frankly, for such anicent declensions, we tend to give only infectional forms as in the anciuent declension. or make one manual table in the page. Because truly, this is outside ModernGrammar, and there is no reason to duplicate to many ancient declensions with one or two changes. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 08:06, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek I had rather assumed that this was more ancient than modern — I shall have to try and retrace my steps - but it would have been somewhere on Google - never a totally reliable source! — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:10, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh nomrally it is a common gender noun (masc.fem). But I need to check, maybe there has been a neuter in later antiquity. And I shall check biblio on how the word is used in Modern. Could I answer tomorrow please. (or tonight).. to make sure I have checked all my sources. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 11:18, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek Something else - since when I started here most entries contained no sources, I followed their example - but would have been nice to do so, like so much else which you find (in Μπαμπι for example). Un fortunately their are only 24 hours in the day! — I'm off to the pub now to meet with some old comrades. — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:30, 25 November 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, nice that you are meeting people. I try to be isolated, because a friend who was vaccinated, got Covid... About ancient declensions applied in ModernGreek. (there are only a few words surviving in formal context, unfortunately from various ancient declensions, not just one.

Your declension is perfect. Note: gen.pl απολίδων is ancient, απόλιδων is a modern variant. At the moment, your word is not lemmatized in Ancient Greek ἄπολις (α- = without + πόλις =city, i.e. without citystate=country). But εὔελπις has a lemma = with hope. In modern greek (DSMG dictionary), the noun εύελπις = a metonym for young cadets of the military academy.

PS A Review, just for reference: ancient nouns and their compound adjectives, surviving in Mod.Greek: They are inflected as their second combining element, as in the ancient declension. The Mod.Gre.Grammars refer to them as footnotes, or not at all. These are not irregular declensions. They are isolated declensions from ancient greek.

Specifically for the -ις, genitive -ιδος adj.compounds:

• Holton. For adjectives, I did not find anything. Greek schoolbooks: no comment for adjectives.

Some used to be common gender nouns. e.g. άπατρις (ancient ἄπατρις = masc/fem. noun) (masc.fem at Babiniotis too) without neuter.

• Similar nouns at DSMG (the dictionary does not give both genders, but i assume, they could be mf nowadays: αρνησίπατρις, εύελπις, φέρελπις, φιλόπατρις.

The only adjective DSMG dictionary gives is άπελπις (a Katharevousa word = without hope, in the pattern of the ancient antonym: εὔελπις, adjective).

Other similar ancient declensions:

• noun.fem ις-ιδος for Άρτεμις (Ἄρτεμις), Αρτέμιδος Holton. at 2.2.2.
• adjectives compounds of nouns -ις, genitive -εως
• adjectives compounds of nouns -ις, genitive -ιτος like εύχαρις (εὔχαρις), gen. ευχάριτος (stem ευ-χαριτ-) and wisely DSMG avoids decl altogether with the note used only in nominative and accusative singular. Babiniotis gives some forms.
• The paroxytone formal modern feminines nouns like the pair masc.δράστης.fem.δράστις (δρᾶστις), δράστιδος / καλλιτέχνης - καλλιτέχνις / σκηνοθέτης - σκηνοθέτις

Source: I have checked your decl at example «εύελπις» at page.451 of Vostantzoglou, Theologos. (Βοσταντζόγλου, Θεολόγος, 1895‑1984) (1967) Αναλυτικό Ορθογραφικό Λεξικό Νεοελληνικής Γλώσσας (Καθαρευούσης και Δημοτικής). [Detailed Orthographic Dictionary of Neohellenic Language (Katharevousa and Demotic)] (in Greek) Athens: n.p.

Thank you, teacher for this adjective. I have not thought of it at all, at el.wikt. You are always one step ahead!!!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 11:07, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, updating: Thank you again for brigining up this -ις -ιδος issue. I maded declensions for the masculine noun 'ρίψασπις', the common gender noun 'άπατρις', (also for the paroxytone feminine 'συνεργάτις') and for the adjective 'εύελπις' (which is also a noun). I had to split to gender-declensions, because of the presence of the article. Thank you again. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 02:13, 27 November 2021 (UTC)

Template DSMG

@Sarri.greek I seek your view on {{R:DSMG}} it refers back to the Triantafyllidis section, because of this some words are "not found":

• found → απόρριψη - Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής [Dictionary of Standard Modern Greek], 1998, by the "Triantafyllidis" Foundation.
• not found → απονωρίς - Λεξικό της κοινής νεοελληνικής [Dictionary of Standard Modern Greek], 1998, by the "Triantafyllidis" Foundation.

But we can search more widely using a combined search with this temporary test {{User:Saltmarsh/template1}}

My first thought is that we need another "combined search" template. But this would require us to test the "Triantafyllidis" template first. Are there any reasons that would prohibit replacing the current template? — Saltmarsh^🢃 11:52, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

@Saltmarsh, this multisearch is just a search.tool, it is not a Dictionary. When using the multisearch example:απορρίπτω, we get results from 3 dictionaries.

• 1) Modern Greek {{R:DSMG}} (Triantafyllidis dictionary, for STANDARD modern greek (Koine Neohellenic), not nonsurviving idiomatic, not nonsurviving Katharevousa).
• 2) From {{R:Georgakas}} who has done ONLY letter A, but with extrrrremely detailed and highly rare forms (he practically records everythinhg that is recorded in modern greek texts).
• 3) and the mediaeval {{R:Kriaras Med}} (el:Πρότυπο:Π:Κριαράς Μεσ) which, is done online monotonic, but should be transferred to polytonic (Mediaeval Greek or Category:Byzantine Greek in polytonic, Here in en.wikt it is studied under Ancient Greek, which is a pity. See el.wikt el:Κατηγορία:Μεσαιωνικά ελληνικά)

The απονωρίς] is _i) Georgakas, a rare script of από νωρίς = από νωρίς, and _ii) the Mediaeval ἀπονωρίς, again, a variant script of ἀπό (apó) & νωρίς (nōrís)

Ι understand that you lemmatize all Georgakas A.letter, which is very nice. In crossreference: his words not lemmatized in DSMG (for Standard) and not lemmatized in {{R:Babiniotis 2002}} (a dictionary, not just for Standard, but generally for modern era greek), are extremely rare.

The Kriaras results should NOT be added here, at ModernGreek section. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 12:16, 26 November 2021 (UTC)

Απόγευμα

@Sarri.greek Συγνώμη αν ήμουν αγενής δεν το ήθελα αναφερόμουν στην αρχική σημασία της λέξης που προστέθηκε ήδη από το 2006, αλλά λάθος μου και δεν θα επαναληφθεί. Πριν κάνω την αλλαγή ρώτησα περίπου 50 άτομα για να είμαι σίγουρος και όντως ούτε στην Ελλάδα,μ ούτε στην Κύπρο, ούτε και σε μερικά άτομα της διασποράς φαίνεται να υπάρχει διαφορά στη γνώμη ότι το απόγευμα είναι μετά από το μεσημέρι, δηλαδή για τους περισσότερους μετά τις 4 ή τις 5. Poursa0 (talk) 00:51, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

@Poursa0 no problem at all -ωπ! είμαστε στο en.wikt. My problem was with μεσημέρι, not with απόγευμα. Απόγευμα is ok. I tried -unsuccesfully- to point out that in greek the word μεση-μέρι is not meant literally (12:00). It is anything between 13:00-18:00, especially the word μεσημεράκι. :) Thank you for this note, I appreciate it. You were right also because why should i discuss μεσημέρi in an usage example for απόγευμα? Καλό μήνα ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 01:00, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

macron + acute

Hi Sarri, if you have difficulty typing multiple diacritics, you can always use {{chars}}. For example, {{subst:chars|grc|a_/}} yields ᾱ́. You can also use Greek characters inside the template, so {{subst:chars|grc|ᾱ/}} also yields ᾱ́. The diacritics can come in any order, so {{subst:chars|grc|a/_}} and {{subst:chars|grc|ά_}} give ᾱ́ too. —Mahāgaja · talk 07:29, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Thank you so much @Mahagaja. I have copypastes, but I was missing some macra. If i have more problems, I will try these chars. I have never tried them. Have a nice holiday! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 09:00, 9 December 2021 (UTC)

Αποσκληρύνω

@Sarri.greek Seasonal greetings! "The Devil finds works for idle hands" so I was just looking at "αποσκληρύνω", ¨αποσκληρυντικός" and "αποσκληρυντικό".
— απο- negates and intensifies, my el-en dictionary gives αποσκληρυντικό=water softener and αποσκληρύνω=to harden. Quick translations of Greek dictionary definitions can therefore be ambiguous! Can all three of these Greek terms have "opposite" meanings. Does water soften as it passes through a water softener and "harden" as it passes though limestone rocks (how's your chemistry/geology!).— Saltmarsh^🢃 10:36, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Yes, stem απο+σκληρ means both! Both means of verb at {{R:Babiniotis 2002}} The noun and adj. at {{R:Georgakas}} and {{R:DSMG}} for water it (obviously) means soften, but for rocks, metallas and geology, it means petrify, harden. A nice idea to search for the απο- words with both meanings!! ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 10:45, 25 December 2021 (UTC)

Οκ, I have check a little bit, the main lemma @el is the more modern form el:αποσκληραίνω. The 'harden' sense is ancient. The verbs ending in -υνω, I am sorry, i have not studied them yet. They are a bit tricky. ‑‑Sarri.greek ^♫ | 10:59, 25 December 2021 (UTC)