Module talk:mnp-pron

Issues with the syllable uǒng

@Wyang, Justinrleung The syllable uong (as in uǒng-hua̿) is causing an error in the template {{zh-pron}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:59, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo: I think it should be uǒ̤ng (with two dots under the o). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:07, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Status Report Needed

@Justinrleung What's the status report for the module?

I would like to add the module to the Chinese version of {{zh-pron}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 23:00, 12 September 2018 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo: I haven't tested it thoroughly, but so far it's good (as long as the input is correct). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:28, 13 September 2018 (UTC)

sṳ̄

@Justinrleung: Hi. Should "sṳ̄" in 樹／树 produce /sy⁴⁴/ (middle rising and falling tone), rather than /sy⁵⁵/ (high level tone)? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:17, 15 December 2019 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Different sources give slightly different tone values. Don't be caught up with the actual pitch levels, but worry about the contour relative to other tones. 44 and 55 are both referring to the high level tone. (44 is not rising and falling - I'm not sure how you got that.) BTW, I would really advise you to be cautious with Min Bei pronunciations since KCR doesn't have a one-to-one correspondence with modern pronunciation. I think we should one day standardize the IPA between the pronunciation tables and our pronunciation modules. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:02, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks. I'll have more questions - re "dialectal data" and our modules mismatches. Re: 44 is not rising and falling - I'm not sure how you got that. is from Kienning_Colloquial_Romanized#Tones, which has tone value 44 as "陽去Middle rising and falling tone". I only have the tone value "44" and macron diacritic to go by. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 00:28, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

@Atitarev: That on the Wikipedia page looks messed up. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 00:36, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks, so the diacritics should work as follows (using "a" as a base) (circumflex and double overline merged into one third tone:

1. ["á"] = 1 = "⁵⁴" 陰平／阴平 (yīnpíng) - dark departing tone (acute)
2. ["â"] = 3 = "³³" 陽平／阳平 (yángpíng) - light level tone - merged into dark departing tone now (circumflex)
3. ["ǎ"] = 2 = "²¹" 上 (shàng) - rising tone (caron)
4. ["a̿"] = 3 = "³³" 陰去／阴去 (yīnqù) - dark departing tone (double overline)
5. ["ā"] = 4 = "⁵⁵" 陽去／阳去 (yángqù) - light departing tone (macron)
6. ["ă"] = 5 = "²⁴" 陰入／阴入 (yīnrù) - dark checked tone (breve)
7. ["à"] = 6 = "⁴²" 陽入／阳入 (yángrù) - light checked tone (grave)

Please check if I got this right. I used our own (Wiktionary) tone definitions. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 09:49, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

@Atitarev: That looks right to me. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:48, 16 December 2019 (UTC)

Merged tones and diff

@Justinrleung Hi. Could you please clarify the difference between "chiô̤" vs "chio̤̿" (both /t͡sʰiɔ³³/)? I see they are merged but I can only get the resulting pronunciation from MFCCD, which shows "陰去33", hence I used the circumflex (in Module:mnp-pron: ["̂"] = 3, 陽平 (circumflex)). Not sure about the historical or the standard KCR. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:42, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: It's best not to deal with cases of the 33 tone if you're not sure. There are some ways to "guess" using tone correspondences with Min Dong/Min Nan (not fool-proof, but usually correct):

• Min Bei ˆ 陽平 = Min Dong ` 陽平 = Min Nan ˆ 陽平
• Min Bei ̿ 陰去 = Min Dong ´ 陰去 = Min Nan ` 陰去

The best way to verify is to check with the Kienning Bible, but it's probably hard for you to find the word in a sea of unknown. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:48, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I got it now, thanks! --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:49, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: If the Kienning Bible has both Kienning and Chinese characters (line by line), it's helpful, even if I couldn't understand. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 05:50, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: It's only romanized, so it's probably not helpful to you. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 05:53, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Yes, it would be harder and I’m not actively learning any of the dialects. I wonder if dialect speakers are even able to read long texts in all those romanisations out there. :::: The module has the right information, I should have used 陰去, 陽平 to get the correct romanisation, even without comparisons with Min Dong. —Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:37, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: MFCCD doesn't distinguish 陰去 and 陽平, though. Both are called 陰去 because they've been merged. In cases where it should be 陽平, it would still tell you that it's 陰去. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:42, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Thanks for the correction and the information. I will seek confirmation for the merged tones but will attempt to check against Min Dong tones. It's a pity that Kienning Bible doesn't seem to be digitised. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:07, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Yeah, it is a pity. I wonder if it could be digitized through Wikisource. Maybe @Suzukaze-c may know something about this. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:57, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

s:mul:Category:Mâing-bă̤-ngṳ̌~ —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 23:00, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: Thanks! Do you know if there's a pdf of it that we could upload and perhaps start digitizing (like what we're doing with those Teochew dictionaries)? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:04, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

s:mul:Se̿ng-géng has a link to images. I could hack together a PDF. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 23:06, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: Yeah, I've been working with the FHL site, but it'd definitely be easier to work with a digitized version. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 23:13, 3 March 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: File:新約全書建寧府個土腔羅馬字.pdf —Suzukaze-c (talk) 04:40, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

@Suzukaze-c: Thanks for uploading it! — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 06:25, 13 August 2020 (UTC)

What is the correct Kienning romanisation for the vernacular Min Bei reading of 停?

@Justinrleung 停 (tíng) in Min Bei is pronounced /xaiŋ³³/ (vernacular reading) but it's a merged tone, so Kienning romanisation could be either "hâing" or "ha̿ing", not sure which one is right. Can't compare with Min Dong in this case. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:21, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

@Atitarev: I can't be sure because I can't find this in the Kienning Bible (yet). It's likely unrelated to 停 anyway - 汉语方言字汇 doesn't list it, and 建甌方言詞典 writes it as 閒 (from what I can tell). — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:54, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: OK, let's leave "hâing". --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:56, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

Tones

Hi, can anyone help? I'm having a hard time typing the romanization with tone marks, especially for vowels like o̤ or ṳ. Please teach me. Thanks! --Mar vin kaiser (talk) 07:24, 2 April 2020 (UTC)

@Mar vin kaiser: There are different ways. One method is to use a tool (a text editor), which supports Unicode and can separates or combine diacritics, e.g. http://www.unipad.org/main/. With this text editors, you can view or decompose and compose characters. E.g. you can copy both symbols from Module:mnp-pron into the editor window: ["o̤ng"] + ["̌"] (caron) to make "ǒ̤ng" or ["e̤ng"] + ["̿"] (double overline) to make "e̤̿ng". You can also decompose symbols with the right-click menu. Check your edits with User:Justinrleung, he might give you more guidance. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:39, 2 April 2020 (UTC)