Talk:偏旁

Needs etymology

Needs etymology. 71.66.97.228 22:44, 31 May 2011 (UTC)

Needs etymology! 71.66.97.228 03:03, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Template:rfe. —suzukaze (t・c) 07:25, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

Template:rfe! —suzukaze (t・c) 07:26, 24 September 2015 (UTC)

偏旁 definition

Here's a part of the definition for 偏旁 as in 现代汉语词典第7版 p997 (I copy-pasted this portion from 百度百科):

偏旁 在汉字形体中常常出现的某些组成部分。 如:“位、住、俭、停”中的“亻”,“国、固、圈、围”中的“囗”,“偏、翩、篇、匾”中的“扁”,都是偏旁

The point is, 扁 is a phonetic component and not a semantic component, but it is considered a 偏旁 along with 单人旁. Therefore, I believe that 偏旁 does not mean 'radical' in the way you described it when you created that page in January 2011. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 15:02, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

I see what you mean. I've misunderstood it my whole life then. Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 19:21, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

Thanks for your quick response. Your lifetime of experience with the word is obviously important. The fact that the "radical" definition lasted for nearly eight years with no change means some people must agree with that definition. I too kind of believe that 偏旁 may refer exclusively to radical in some contexts; I think I have been taught both the "radical" and "component" definitions for 偏旁. I am going to try to find out what some of the other users think about this issue. @Dokurrat, Justinrleung, Wyang, Suzukaze-c, Tooironic, KevinUp Any thoughts? Jianbian: "泛指漢字合體字的上下左右任一部分 例 江字的右偏旁是個「工」字。" [1] --Geographyinitiative (talk) 23:07, 26 December 2018 (UTC)

radical is probably better translated as 部首. I had always thought 部首 and 偏旁 were the same. It's a good thing you raised this. Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 00:09, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

In my experience, native speakers tend to conflate the two, while foreigners usually learn them as different things. Both senses could probably be attested, so why not include both? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:27, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

部首 = component used for indexing of Chinese characters in dictionaries whereas 偏旁 = any component of a Chinese character. So, any 部首 can also be a 偏旁 but a 偏旁 may or may not be a 部首. KevinUp (talk) 05:29, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

@Jamesjiao, KevinUp, Tooironic I asked around, and there are A LOT of people who think that 偏旁 is the basically the same as 部首. I made changes to the page accordingly; let me know what you think! --Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:31, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I proposed a change at WikiBooks related to this issue: [2] --Geographyinitiative (talk) 11:20, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I prefer the previous edit by Jamesjiao with the following definition: "(linguistics) component (of a Chinese character)". As mentioned in my comment above, any 部首 can also be a 偏旁 but a 偏旁 may or may not be a 部首. I would consider 部首 as a hyponym, rather than a synonym of 偏旁. See also https://baike.baidu.com/item/偏旁部首#联系区别 KevinUp (talk) 14:48, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp Thanks for your reply. I 100% agree that, in the formal definition of 偏旁, 部首 is a hyponym of 偏旁, yeah. Earlier this morning, I would have agreed with your opinion too- I thought we should get rid of the 'radical' definition on the 偏旁 page. For about the past 2 years, I have been operating according to the 'component' definition for 偏旁 and not the 'radical' definition. But the problem is is that most Chinese people and Chinese language learners think that 偏旁 absolutely does not refer to the part of the character on the right hand side of the character or on the bottom half of the character. I admit that this is undoubtedly an error in their understanding of the concept of a 偏旁. In effect, this way of thinking means that 部首 and 偏旁 are identical. But what I came to feel later on today was that, at some point, the widespread misunderstanding of a concept becomes a new definition- a new colloquial understanding- of that concept. That's why I re-added the "radical" definition that Jamesjiao added in 2011 and had removed today after I contacted him: I was persuaded by the weight of my personal experience that there are an absolutely overwhelming number of people that think 偏旁 means 'radical'. 百度百科 has this sentence: "“偏旁部首”常常连在一起说，于是有些教师就认为“偏旁”和“部首”是一回事，这是一种误解。偏旁和部首，虽然有某些联系，却是两个不同的概念。" [3]. I feel that the reason that they have to write this sentence on Baidu Baike is that the level of confusion about the difference between the concepts of Pianpang and Bushou has reached a kind of tipping point where everyone is using the wrong definition as if it is the right definition. The WikiBook page above has the sentence "'偏旁，又称部首，是合体字的结构单位。" This proves that there are some people out there who hua ge denghao between pianpang and bushou. In my experience, adherents of this wrong definition for pianpang will adamantly tell you that the right-hand side of a character is by no means to be referred to as a 偏旁. Note that when you ask them what the right-hand side is, they usually have no answer, but that's not important- what matters is, there is a widespread, cross-cultural, colloquial misunderstanding of the concept of 偏旁 that was reflected in Jamesjiao's original post from 2011, and I would like to find a way to accommodate both the "correct" definition and this "colloquial" definition in Wiktionary. If you don't agree and feel like the "radical" definition needs to be totally removed, I'm okay with that too really- I just think that we have a good opportunity to tell our readers what 99% of non-wenzixue-scholars really mean when they use the term 偏旁. Sorry if I was rude to Jamesjiao earlier by half-reverting his edit. If you have read this far into my post, then thanks a lot, you're amazing. Again, I am okay with removing the 'radical' definition, but I suggest not doing it. --Geographyinitiative (talk) 16:37, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

I think we can just list 部首 as a hyponym of 偏旁. The main difference between the two concepts is that a complex character can have many 偏旁 but usually only one 部首. Template:biang is a good example to explain the difference between the two terms. I think the addition of the colloquial definition would further confuse our readers. Usage notes might be better, e.g. Not to be confused with 部首 (bùshǒu), which refers to a specific 偏旁 (component) used for the indexing of characters in Chinese dictionaries. KevinUp (talk) 19:41, 27 December 2018 (UTC)

@KevinUp I agree that a usage note could just as easily handle this problem, and I would not oppose you making that kind of change. I like what you wrote for the usage note, but I might change it to read "Often confused with 部首 (bùshǒu), which refers to a specific 偏旁 (component) used for the indexing of characters in Chinese dictionaries." (I changed your "Not to be confused with" to "Often confused with".) --Geographyinitiative (talk) 05:01, 28 December 2018 (UTC)

@Geographyinitiative: The usage notes added recently looks good to me. Thank you for clarifying the difference between 偏旁 (piānpáng), 部首 (bùshǒu) and 部件 (bùjiàn). @Jamesjiao Can this conversation be moved to Talk:偏旁 for future reference? KevinUp (talk) 05:53, 28 December 2018 (UTC)