Talk:befriend

RFV

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Rfv-sense "To act as a friend to". Never heard it used that way. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 10:42, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Very hard to tell whether cites are referring to this sense or the more common one. I think this is an example:

"Yet you befriend him?"

"Befriend? That is not the word. I spend my mother's money on him for her sake. One saves him at least from public disgrace. But he games away all he gets, and continues to live in the way you know."

but in general it would be hard to tell from a snippet of text which sense is meant. That said, the definition is from 1913 Webster, which doesn't have the modern definition at all, and the only citation they give is probably another example of "acting as a friend" rather than "becoming a friend". Smurrayinchester (talk) 14:30, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Older dictionaries have a sense which I have paraphrased as "To favor". This wording is not limited to persons. I have taken all the citations from Johnson's Dictionary to attest the sense. One is ambiguous. I will try to provide the citation details that Johnson omitted.

Is the other, inceptive sense limited to people? It seems so to me, but I'm not sure. DCDuring TALK 15:13, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

We have a parallel discussion here - Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup#befriend. Is the first sense a synonym for make friends (1)? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:55, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Cited the "act as a friend to" sense, I think. DCDuring TALK 15:08, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Nice work! RFV-passed. - -sche (discuss) 06:23, 24 October 2012 (UTC)

RFC

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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The definition "to make a friend of" is not clear to me and I can see that many translations reflect this confusion. Is it "make friends" (with somebody) or "make someone to be your/somebody else's friend"? BTW, make friends's both senses seem to mean the same thing. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 06:21, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

I changed it to "To become a friend of". Is that clearer? --WikiTiki89 (talk) 10:41, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, that looks better but let's see where Wiktionary:Requests_for_verification#befriend goes. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 22:53, 18 September 2012 (UTC)

This seems a little complicated to me. In modern terms friendship is a mutual relationship between people: "We are friends". So befriend should mean "To enter into friendship with; to make friends with", which at least is consistent with mutuality, depending on our definition of friendship and friend. This would be the first sense, AFAICT

Formerly, it seems that being a friend to someone was more one-sided. It seems to have meant "To show favor to" and was not so limited to people. "Fortune was a friend to me." For this sense, it is not really possible to "become friends". But there must be usage that is not inceptive, but does involve the mutual relationship, which is the RfVed sense.

OED anyone? DCDuring TALK 00:51, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

As long as the first sense is the same as "make friends" (ie. become friends, mutually), I'm clear on this. All the translations seem to match "make friends" now, which is good. The previous definition was "to make a friend of" wasn't very clear to me (maybe because of my English), even though I understand the expression "make friends". Does it also mean "to make somebody a friend of someone" (e.g. the teacher befriended John with the new boy - made John a friend of the new boy) - not in a mutual sense? --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 01:30, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

The first sense is definitely the most common sense in current usage. Befriend implies that the subject is taking a more active role than the object in building the mutual relationship. It does not exclude the possibility of manipulation and deceit. A subsense is probably "to win the trust of", which suggests the manipulation potential.

The latter sense that you suggest, for A to connect B and C in friendship, is not in any current English I know. If it is found, I'd suspect an improper translation. A could introduce B and C to each other. In a romantic context, A could set B and C up or set B up with C. DCDuring TALK 01:59, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I'm happy with my request (first sense) but the second sense wasn't tagged by me. Will standardise, fix and add translations later on, or export and {{trans-see}} to make friends. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:14, 19 September 2012 (UTC)

The problem right now is that the definition of make friends with is "to befriend", so it is useless to include make friends with as the definition of befriend. It should instead be listed as a synonym. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 06:39, 19 September 2012 (UTC)