Talk:bad

Baddest

the page mentions the slang form of bad. it should also mention "baddest", as in "i'm the baddest mutha***** out here". just a sugestion--Jaysscholar 23:50, 2 November 2005 (UTC)

 Done Someone added this at some point under etymology 2. Equinox 12:51, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Missing definition

The colloquial adverb use of "bad" as in "I want it bad" is missing in this page. Since I do not know under which etymology it goes, I'd rather let an expert do it. 66.130.154.54 04:28, 9 October 2008 (UTC)

 Done Your sentence is using bad as slang for badly, which we have a note about. I've added another sense for the adjective ("severe", "urgent") to go with this. Equinox 12:50, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

Etymology

Earlier etymology is logical (except for the dubious Proto-Indo-European origin[3]), compared with the alternative unconnected in meaning. There is no evidence of a connection between the initially presented meaning and that of these Norse alternatives, that may be from pre-Indo-European √ ĀBhADh[3]. Was in the Guiness Book of Records, as the oldest written attestation in English; but whether it is simply related to Old High German PAD[6] that was probably borrowed from Celtic[3] (as that lexeme also means 'bath'); or Iberian[4], with its ancient Spanish remote connections[7], I am not convinced by that statement. Not to be linked with Welsh BUDR[1], from root of Latin PUTER[5]; nor is it connected with German BÖSE[1], from another root altogether. Per the December 2014 request, the Oxford Dictionary and Professor Skeat's bear out the BǢDAN[4], (to defile) although phonologically incorrect, as the oldest attested meaning. There is no connection with Gaelic bochd (poor) that is cognate with Old Cornish BOGHESEK (poor) from an entirely different root.

Alternative etymology suggests Celtic(3) *BADOS, although that could have been borrowed into Celtic from a substrate form[4], ultimately akin the Spanish forms[4], although this is completely unattested; but because there are no French cognates for these Spanish forms, they are less likely to be of Celtic origin, since Celtic had far more hold in France than in Spain (except for part of the north coast there). However, some of the French forms could be from the above Proto-Celtic, if it were not from a substrate form.. Andrew H. Gray 13:06, 4 February 2019 (UTC) Andrew (talk)

[0] means 'Absolutely not; [1] means 'Exceedingly unlikely'; [2] means 'Very dubious'; [3] means 'Questionable'; [4] means 'Possible'; [5] means 'Probable'; [6] means 'Likely'; [7] means 'Most Likely' or *Unattested; [8] means 'Attested'; [9] means 'Obvious' - only used for close matches within the same language or dialect, at linkable periods. √ means original or earliest root.
Andrew H. Gray 20:56, 4 November 2015 (UTC) Andrew (talk)

The Guinness Book of Records' assertion does not make sense since there cannot be "oldest English word(s)" (only "oldest written attestation" could make sense in such a case). 86.69.154.9 17:58, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

What about this etymology linking it to Lithuanian bads and Sanskrit badha? Zezen (talk) 13:14, 29 January 2016 (UTC)

Copying an answer from my Talk page (Thanks!):

@Zezen (talk) Regarding the Lithuanian lexeme for "hunger", the connection there with English BAD is quite dubious; nor is there any connection with the Sanskrit form that links much more semantically with the Norse forms; although ultimately from the stock root ABhAdh (mentioned in the Talk Page of bad). Not every SINGLE word present in English is of Proto-Indo-European origin. Andrew H. Gray 14:04, 12 February 2016 (UTC)Andrew

Several problems (assuming our etymologies are correct):

1. That's Etymology 1 at bædan, which is unrelated to the etymology under consideration, Etymology 1 of this entry- which is possibly related to Etymology 2 at bædan. Etymology 1 at baedan is distantly related to Etymology 3 of this entry, but that's an archaic inflected form of a relatively uncommon verb, not the very common adjective.
2. bads is Latvian, not Lithuanian
3. bads is from PIE *bʰodʰ-/*bʰedʰ-, while Etymology 1 at bædan is from *bʰeydʰ-- two completely different roots.
4. The same is true of बाधा (bādhā)

In other words: that's the wrong etymology, it doesn't link to the non-Lithuanian bads, nor to the Sanskrit बाधा (bādhā)- every part of your question is wrong. The fact that you didn't notice any of these fatal errors when you posted that question shows why you shouldn't be editing etymologies until you learn to pay attention to details. Chuck Entz (talk) 17:57, 13 February 2016 (UTC)

Thank you for the answer, Chuck Entz.

Re 3: Do you mean that बाधा (bādhā) comes from *bʰodʰ- too, then?

Re "4": Questions are right (they may be inane or inept, granted), while the answers may be wrong.

As for my future tinkering with etymologies, I have just created Appendix:Proto-Slavic/buditi - do you like it? Edit at will. I plan to continue to do so, for Wiktionary's sake, to join the PIE dots, and I welcome your input and collaboration there, too.Zezen (talk) 00:44, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

I'm not qualified to critique Proto-Slavic etymologies- I know my limits. The problem with your plan is that you've repeatedly shown yourself to be quite capable of getting things massively, horribly wrong. Even if you're %90 right, the potential for damage by that other %10 means that the people who are knowledgeable enough to spot your mistakes have to spend time checking your work that they could have spent on much more reliable work of their own. As for your question re 3: I said "assuming our etymologies are correct". Off the top of my head, the consonants look like they could be compatible with that assumption, if w:Grassman's law has removed the aspiration from the first consonant, but I don't know where the long vowels come from- I haven't done much with Sanskrit in a long, long time. Re your observation on 4: no, as I demonstrated above, your questions are fatally flawed, which makes the likelihood of wrong answers very high. Given your lack of caution, I hope no one gives you the opportunity to perform brain surgery or nuclear-reactor design any time soon. Chuck Entz (talk) 03:42, 15 February 2016 (UTC)

Re. Etymology for "bad":

I'd just like to point you all to the Persian word بد (bd) meaning bad, evil, ill, icky, unfavorable, amiss, blighted, dreadful, mean, shocking... (I've just taken the translations the Google translator spat out). This word is used in the same way in Urdu / Hindi (both India, where my father comes from). As Persian is also an Indo-Germanic (Arian) language, I would presume that the words bad / بد have the same origin. And another tip for the scientists / researchers among you: I once saw a documentary on European Christian history - in this documentary one of the historians interviewed mentioned that during a certain period in Christian history (Early Middle Ages) the Church strictly forbade taking a bath, calling it an "evil custom" from pre-Christian times (especially since men and women at the time used to take baths together). I know from Muslim history, that Muslims used to consider European Christians dirty because (for religious reasons) they never took a bath. So it may well be that the etymology given under "bath" may not be quite correct, but rather be connected to the fact, that the original word "bad" meaning evil became interchangeable with taking a bath ("don't do it, its bad/evil").

JMAkhtar 2016-12-15 15:00 Thu (UTC)

The resemblance of the Persian and English words is found in many linguistics textbooks as the prime example of a coincidental false cognate. If it had been inherited by both from the same Proto-Indo-European word, there would be considerable difference between the two. Chuck Entz (talk) 15:07, 15 December 2016 (UTC)

Amusing. So if the pronunciation of a word hardly changed over the centuries, then it is considered to be a "coincidental false cognate"? So then there are really many coincidental false cognates between the European (Indo-European/Arian) and Persian (Indo-European/Arian) languages: مادر (madr)= mother (German: Mutter), پدر (padr) = father (German: Vater), برادر (bradr) = brother (German: Bruder), دختر (dukhtr) = daughter (German: Tochter), just to name a few :) [JMAkhtar 2017-01-04 19:18 Wed (UTC)]

@[JMAkhtar 2017-01-04 19:18 Wed (UTC)] Whilst I appreciate your logic, Chuck Entz is a very highly qualified etymologist and linguist who understands the subject fluently and is aware of the changes that would have taken place. Regards. Andrew H. Gray 19:49, 9 January 2017 (UTC)Andrew (talk)

But the origin of English bad is obscure (it can only be traced back to c. 1300 as Middle English badde). Can we really be sure, then, that there is no connection at all and the resemblance is entirely coincidental? Can't the English word be a borrowing from Persian? --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:19, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

The evidence is weighted towards it only being assimilated in writing by that time, but is likely to have been used in speech long before then. After all, there was no printing available then; and if no one had to write the word, it could only have existed vocally, if not borrowed, as suggested that it might have been. I am not carried by its origin as bæddel for 'hermaphrodite' either. There is certainly no connection with Gaelic bochd (poor) that answers to Cornish boghosek (poor). All I actually know apart from my early edits above is that bad was hypothetically documented as the longest surviving word (before its gradations) in the English language; but that is very dubious. Care is required in citing any remote connection with Spanish badea (related to 'insipidity'), 'badomia' (nonsence) and badulaque; but, in any case, there is no direct connection between these lexemes and Welsh baedd (wild boar) and baeddu (to beat, buffet, soil) - (probably from the noun). There would have to be a real link with bædan (to defile) and of non-P.I.E. origin for an Iberian or dialectual Javanese origin, to link with the Guiness Book of Records' assumption. Kind regards. Andrew H. Gray 16:34, 28 July 2017 (UTC)Andrew

I think we are missing the obvious answer to the origin of bad which is from the substrate welsh word of bwdr meaning rotten and pronounced bood. We know the pre saxon language was Welsh/British so I am unsure how this has been missed. 81.141.113.16 20:56, 3 November 2018 (UTC)

The vowel changes alone render the Welsh BWDR or BUDR as inconsistent with its true etymology, that is very difficult to trace. Andrew Andrew H. Gray 08:55, 5 November 2018 (UTC)

adverbial use

Since badly has two senses, I'd add an example of each to clarify its use as adverb encompasses both of the uses of badly --Backinstadiums (talk) 11:35, 17 July 2019 (UTC)

more badly and most badly

https://www.wordreference.com/EnglishUsage/bad#1 --Backinstadiums (talk) 12:01, 5 April 2020 (UTC)

I got in bad with their supervisor

What meaning is used in I got in bad with their supervisor? --Backinstadiums (talk) 10:26, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

to the bad

After buying the TV, he was £500 to the bad. --Backinstadiums (talk) 12:28, 18 August 2020 (UTC)

Noun (uncountable) : something that is bad

to take the bad with the good.
https://www.wordreference.com/definition/bad

--Backinstadiums (talk) 10:11, 28 August 2020 (UTC)

RFD discussion: September 2022–January 2023

The following information passed a request for deletion (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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bad

Interjection: "Used to scold a misbehaving child or pet." A lot of adjectives can be "shouted" this way; we don't have an intj at naughty, for example. Equinox ◑ 00:45, 15 September 2022 (UTC)

Delete per nom. "Interjections that are just applicable words, uttered by themselves" is a bit of a grey area, I see we have good#Interjection, but we deleted fire (because you can equally shout "bomb!" or "gun!", or "halt!" or "stop!" or "aim!"), and I'm inclined to agree with Equinox that this is just the adjective like "naughty!" or "beautiful!" or "lovely!" or "ridiculous!". - -sche (discuss) 01:25, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

I think scolding is quite a specific use (though I’d say I’m much more likely to say “bad” to a pet, whereas “naughty” seems more appropriate for a child). Theknightwho (talk) 07:45, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

You could also view it as simply an elliptical form of "you are bad" or "that is bad", as a person might mutter "...hungry, hungry...", or Vampire Willow said "bored now", omitting the subject and verb. Equinox ◑ 11:31, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

True, and there’s no change in the morphology. “What are you eating?” “Cake” is not really any different syntactically, and semantically they’re both being used in response to something. They’re just statements with obvious context. Leaning delete. Theknightwho (talk) 11:37, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@Theknightwho: The difference is that your example uses cake as a response rather than an interjection. Most people wouldn't simply yell "Cake!" unprompted, nor would others interpret such an exclamation as "I am currently eating cake". Binarystep (talk) 09:27, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

Delete Leasnam (talk) 01:42, 18 September 2022 (UTC)

Keep. The fact that it's specifically used to scold is an important bit of context, in my opinion. You wouldn't yell "Bad!" to mean "this yogurt has gone bad" (unless you were trying to be humorous, at least). Binarystep (talk) 09:29, 24 September 2022 (UTC)

You very well might. You're near the fridge and your girlfriend is handing you things to check. "This one's okay. That one's bad. Good! Bad!" etc. It's all about context. Nothing to do with this particular word "bad". Equinox ◑ 17:52, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Keep per above. Overlordnat1 (talk) 07:51, 28 September 2022 (UTC)

Delete. Interjections are a delicate area, since virtually any word can be used as an interjection in the right context. We don't need an interjection sense at "Dave" because sometimes people call out my name to get my attention. In this case I think it is essentially an elision of "bad dog" or "bad Susie" or whatever is being scolded. I am also skeptical of the argument that this can only be used to scold. - TheDaveRoss 16:29, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Delete for the reason given by the nominator. — Sgconlaw (talk) 18:03, 4 October 2022 (UTC)

Err on the side of keeping: in Czech, I cannot call "špatný" or "zlý" on a child or a dog, which would be an analog. It's not terribly useful for decoding, but it does document verbal behavior that is not guaranteed to be there from the definitions alone. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:28, 4 November 2022 (UTC)

Keep. I think the mention of naughty early in the discussion strengthens the case for keeping this word, as it shows us that there is a category of words that can be used this way, and a category that cannot. I would hope for example you would not use evil this way, even though it has essentially the same meaning. I could probably write a whole essay on why the word bad can mean what it does while being mild enough to use as an interjection aimed at small children, with naughty perhaps right by its side, while evil belongs in an entirely different category. —Soap— 19:57, 6 January 2023 (UTC)

• RFD-kept: 4 keeps and 6 deletes; all votes provided something like a rationale except for one delete, which could be therefore discounted, but the result would be the same. If German pfui is really correct, that is not an obvious translation of "bad" outside of an interjection, cementing the rationale for keeping. (WT:VPRFD). --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:58, 30 January 2023 (UTC)