Talk:Popeye

I thought the term "popeye" might have been an existing term before it became the name of the cartoon character, as a description of an eye injured by a pop to the face, but there doesn't seem to be an entry for it as a common noun. B7T 20:44, 26 September 2009 (UTC)

The following information passed a request for deletion.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.

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Popeye

Only used in one particular cartoon universe. Pretty sure this fails CFI. Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 05:33, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

The word is used in reminiscence of the character’s oddly-shaped arms: google books:"Popeye muscle", google books:"Popeye arm", google books:"Popeye biceps". But this might be better handled by creating those entries individually. — Ungoliant ^(Falai) 05:46, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Does it fail CFI, I don't know, but it should not. Fictional characters (or fictional place names, etc.) should be subject to the same rule as other words, except that uses by the creator of the name might be excluded. And it's very easy to find uses of this word by many people. Lmaltier (talk) 09:03, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

This should pass CFI based on the number of hits for "Popeye muscles" or "Popeye squint" alone. For example:

1967, Television Magazine, Volume 24, Issue 11, page 27:

• They seem equipped to drag the building between them right down Pennsylvania Avenue, but their progress is arrested by two heroes of Popeye musculature, government men putting a check rein on willful industry.

Nov. 2006, Men's Health, Vol. 21, No. 9, page 60:

• BIGGER ARMS, FEWER EXERCISES • Auburn University researchers have found that you can blow off boring wrist curls and extensions and still build your Popeye muscles.

2006, Laura A. Jacobs, Landscape With Moving Figures: A Decade on Dance, page 44:

• The shapes were Disney animation — as if someone had loosened a screw in that machine — and the dancers looked like errant toadstools, or had Mighty Mouse chests and Popeye muscles, even Saturn rings around midriffs.

2009, Kaye Morgan, Killer Sudoku:

• Roche's jaw tightened so much, little Popeye muscles appeared in his cheeks.

1991, Anthony Bruno, Bad Luck, page 28:

• Lenny gave him the Popeye squint as he rolled off to Frank, the other bodyguard on duty, who was standing on the other side of the stage behind the Epps camp.

2000, Thomas S. Lee, Jr., The Gods Underground: Project Z, page 335:

• In the corner of his vision he could see the form of the guard, imagining the Popeye squint was examining his every move.

2003, Barbara Haynie, The Terrain of Paradise, page 248:

• Hale grinned and winked at her with an exaggerated Popeye squint he had used to tease her when she was a giggly kid.

2011, Steve Hamilton, Misery Bay: An Alex McKnight Novel, page 5:

• He was looking at the man in the pink snowmobile suit with a Popeye squint in his right eye.

Cheers! bd2412 T 15:52, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Current definition probably fails, but I'd imagine there's a common noun definition out there somewhere so that we can move the proper noun definition to the etymology. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:09, 3 February 2013 (UTC)

Agreed. Saying that it is a cartoon character really doesn't convey the meaning in the examples given. I change my proposition from deletion to modifying the definition to express the meaning given in the examples. Jamesjiao → ^{T ◊ C} 03:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

BD2412, we don't need citations to show that a proper noun can be used in attributively in English, we already know that. It would be like citing the word is in English. These citations don't show that Popeye is any different to say, David Cameron or John F. Kennedy. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:25, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I agree. But there is an important difference nonetheless: Popeye is a single word, while, linguistically, from a language dictionary (therefore not encyclopedic) point of view, David Cameron must be considered as composed of two words. Lmaltier (talk) 20:04, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

@MG: If one says that a member of the Kennedy family has Kennedy charm, that use of Kennedy should not lead to inclusion. If one says that Bill Clinton has Kennedy charm (Kennedy not having been used previously in the work), I think that would be evidence that Kennedy merited inclusion. We could decide (ie, VOTE) to exclude such things as a matter of policy, but the usage would suggest that Kennedy is part of the lexicon in a way that goes beyond reference to a specific individual or family. (I do not know whether there is any usage that would meet our standards for Kennedy). DCDuring TALK 20:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

In my opinion, Kennedy should be included only as a surname. All proper names can be used in such a way. Allusions to an individual or a family don't make new senses. Lmaltier (talk) 21:16, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

Then you feel differently about proper names only of fictional characters (since you want to keep Popeye)? That is odd. Equinox ◑ 21:20, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

No, not at all. I only consider their status of word. Confucius is a word, and is the name of an individual. Kennedy is a word (a surname). Popeye is a word (a fictional character). But John Kennedy is not a single word for us, because it cannot be studied linguistically, only John and Kennedy can be studied. And what I explain above was about includable senses. Lmaltier (talk) 21:42, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't agree. I see no difference between Kennedy in Kennedy charm and Bette Davis in Bette Davis eyes. —Angr 22:21, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

I don't see any difference either, and I would exclude both senses. But I would include Popeye or Kennedy, for their actual sense (a fictional character, and a surname). We should include all words, whatever they mean. Lmaltier (talk) 06:47, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

For a non-hypothetical case, consider [[Marilyn Monroe]]. DCDuring TALK 23:45, 5 February 2013 (UTC)

So where a fictional character has a surname, like H. R. Pufnstuf, would you want to include that? How would you define it? Equinox ◑ 11:04, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

In same cases, people can create words at will, for their own needs. These words should not be includable, except if they are used by other people (unrelated to the creator), making them elements of the language. This is why I would exclude citations from all people related to the creator of the word, at least in a few cases: company names, brand names, fictional character names, fictional placenames. About your question: a name or a surname given to a single character should be defined as this character, of course. Lmaltier (talk) 21:40, 6 February 2013 (UTC)

It is also worth noting, I think, that "Popeye" is a name/nickname in use beyond the fictional character. For example, see w:Popeye Jones and w:Popeye Doyle, along with citations such as:

1994, Eric Cummins, The Rise and Fall of California's Radical Prison Movement, page 216:

• The UPU faction, headed by Popeye Jackson, drew considerable numbers of members away from the Prisoners' Union when it split off in 1973, primarily taking with it the union's more radical convicts.

There is also a character named "Popeye" in William Faulkner's 1931 novel, Sanctuary, which was written after the fictional cartoon sailor began appearing in comic strips (in 1919), but before the first Popeye short (in 1933). The character in the novel is a demonically evil gangster, and does not appear to be a reference to the pre-existing comic strip character. Separate from the question of whether we should have an entry on the fictional cartoon sailor, it seems clear that there are a CFI-worthy number of examples to include an entry on the name/nickname (compare the RfD discussion preserved at Talk:Crouchy). However, although some of these nickname uses might derive from the fictional cartoon sailor, reference to "Popeye muscles" or a "Popeye squint" come directly from the character. bd2412 T 00:06, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Sorry, do you mean "worth nothing", or do you mean "worth noting"? —Angr 00:18, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Oops, fixed. Certainly, it is worth something. bd2412 T 01:40, 7 February 2013 (UTC)

Keep, upon further investigation. Here is another citation in print:

• 2009, ESPN, ESPN College Basketball Encyclopedia, page 99:

  FAN FAVORITE: С Popeye Jones (1988-92) Befitting his nickname, Ronald "Popeye" Jones never came up short in the effort department.

This pretty clearly indicates use of the nickname as a reference to the attributes of the cartoon sailor. Note that this source makes no mention of said sailor, and only presumes that the reader will immediately understand the significance of "Popeye" as a nickname. bd2412 T 04:44, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

kept -- Liliana • 20:08, 10 August 2013 (UTC)