Reconstruction talk:Proto-Indo-European/mḗh₁n̥s

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[edit]

Chinese (wàng < OC *maŋs, maŋ, "full moon") looks like a descendant too. Wyang (talk) 02:31, 13 February 2013 (UTC)

This is Proto-Indo-European, not Proto-Sino-Tibetan. —CodeCat 03:05, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
I know. Loanwords are also called "descendants" here, eg. *sneygʷʰ-, *sū-, *dʰwer-, craticula. Wyang (talk) 03:12, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
Ok, but how do you know it's a loanword and not a false cognate? —CodeCat 03:14, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
That's why I posted this on the talk page and said "it looks like ...". Wyang (talk) 03:16, 13 February 2013 (UTC)
@Wyang: In Old Chinese, didn't mean "moon", though, unlike , but "to view from a distance"; compare 望月. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:18, 27 August 2017 (UTC)
@Florian Blaschke: (variant of modern ) also meant "full moon" (as a phase of the moon).
Shiming: "望: the name for a full moon" (望,月滿之名也).
Shuowen Jiezi: "朢: When the Moon is in its full phase, it 'looks' at the (full) Sun from a distance; this is akin to the official having an audience with and looking at the ruler from afar." (朢,月滿與日相望,以朝君也。)
Note: This is attempting to explain the composition of the character - (official) + (Moon) + (ruler), and why a word meaning "full moon; view from a distance" is written as such.
Wyang (talk) 02:41, 28 August 2017 (UTC)
@Wyang: But as far as I can tell, the meaning "to look at from a distance" is primary, while "full moon" appears to be a secondary development (and was given an extra character without it demonstrably being a phonetically or etymologically separate word) – is also given with only the first, verb meaning in Baxter–Sagart's list. The existence of variants with and without the *-s suffix is also typical of Old Chinese verbs. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 18:42, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── @Florian Blaschke: It's great that you have an interest in this interesting word. :) The relationship between the two senses of "to look at from a distance" and "full moon" is debated in the literature. Both and can refer to both meanings, with being the more archaic form (without a phonetic part), which gradually became when one of its components was replaced by a phonetic part (OC *maŋ) to make the pronunciation more apparent. In the bronze inscriptions, it is used to primarily mean “full moon”, and the sense “to look at from a distance” was rarely attested. van Auken (2002) discussed the etymology of this word in detail in her article The Etymonic Determinatives of wanq (, ); her conclusion was:

Even if the dual role of secondary elements is more widespread than commonly recognized, the case of wanq < *mjang(s) 朢 -望 is nevertheless a curious one, occurring as it did in an unusual junction of polygraphy and polysemy: two graphs were used interchangeably to stand for two etymologically unrelated words, and of the four constituent elements present in these two graphs, three (and perhaps all four, if we accept Boodberg's arguments) bore a semantic and phonetic relationship to one of the words the graph represented.

Wyang (talk) 21:58, 28 August 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang: So you think the Old Chinese word for "full moon" might be a loanword from Indo-European (Indo-Iranian or Tocharian)? I admit that sounds possible (especially in view of Avestan 𐬨𐬂𐬢𐬵 (måŋh, month, moon), 𐬨𐬂𐬢𐬵𐬀 (måŋha, moon), and also Tocharian A mañ (moon, month)); there are other cases like , < OC *mit, that have been interpreted as Indo-European loans. --Florian Blaschke (talk) 14:16, 31 August 2017 (UTC)
Yes, potentially. Wyang (talk) 23:35, 31 August 2017 (UTC)

Lengthened grade[edit]

What evidence is there, exactly, that *mḗh₁n̥s had a lengthened nominative/accusative stem? I can see that happening perhaps in the nominative singular, due to the contraction of the two *s, but based on the descendants presented there appears to be nothing suggesting an original long vowel independent of the following laryngeal. In that case, why not reconstruct it like this?

Nominative singular - *mḗh₁n̥s (<*méh₁n̥ss)
Vocative singular - *méh₁n̥s
Accusative singular - *méh₁n̥sm̥
Genitive singular - *méh₁n̥sos or perhaps *m̥h₁n̥sés
Dghmonwiskos (talk) 20:43, 13 September 2017 (UTC)