Talk:辺

Heta

@Eirikr Anata is from a contraction of an(ok)ata. Wrong etymon. Chuterix (talk) 19:36, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Every source I just checked parses anata, sonata, konata as three elements, with the ta as a directional morpheme. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:52, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eirikr: Parsing marks (eg. CV-CV (e.g. 羽 (hane, “feather”))) ≠ compound of CV + CV, unless there's strong evidence (there is many for hane, but not much for (C)Vnata). If there is actually a *-ta 'way, direction', then it would have been more productive (下 (shita, shimo, “below”), can I put you into this discussion?). Even if there was a *-ta, then there would be rapid (probably actually correct) etymologies that it is a truncation of 方 (kata, “way, direction”).

Again, anata, sonata, konata etymology theory lists (C)V-no-kata:

Anata: (1) アノカタの約〔名語記・日本釈名・和訓栞〕。

Sonata: ソノカタ（其方）の約〔大言海〕。

Konata: (1)コノカタの約〔名語記・類聚名物考・大言海〕。

And western linguists support this theory:

The proximal demonstrative pronoun kǝnata ‘here,’ ‘this side’ originated as a result of a contraction of the modifier form kǝnǝ of the proximal demonstrative pronoun kǝ/kǝre- and the word kata ‘side,’ ‘direction.’

—Vovin, Alexander (2020), A Descriptive and Comparative Grammar of Western Old Japanese (p. 273-274)

Konata, sonata, kanata are thought to have arisen from reductions of ko-no kata 'this side', etc.; [...]

—Frellesvig, Bjarke (2010, A History of the Japanese Language (p. 247)

Chuterix (talk) 22:31, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

And with heta, it might seem compelling, but I don't know if this is a truncation of *he-kata as well. There is also 出雲 (Izumo < *idu-kumo). Chuterix (talk) 22:47, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

• Again, anata, sonata, konata etymology theory lists (C)V-no-kata:

Where are you sourcing this?

While the Kotobank NKD entry does not include any etym information, the version here at Sakura Paris includes more of what I recall from my (now-no-longer-easily-accessible) electronic NKD version, explicitly calling out the た as a directional or locational element:

• (「へ」は「へ(辺)」、「た」は「かなた」などの「た」で、方向を意味するものか。「はた(端)」の「た」とも同じ)

‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:27, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

• Where are you sourcing this?

I literally gave so many etymological theories. Maybe my grammar was bad; if this is the case, I should have reparsed it:

"Again there are various etymologies deriving anata, sonata, konata, from (a/so/ko)-no kata:"

Anyways, I believe the NKD2 removal of most etymologies (they disappeared from both the full 2nd edition and the concise edition), because they were too speculative and/or they can be denied. For instance, 胸 (mune, “breast”) is called to be a cognate with 棟 (mune, “roof ridge”), but the pitch accent can rule out the etymology, or at least they're doublets. The pitch accent for both senses in Modern Tokyo are both 2, but the mune 'chest' is HL in Heian Kyoto but mune 'roof ridge' is HH in Heian Kyoto. Chuterix (talk) 23:49, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Re: where are you sourcing this, you give what appears to be copy-pasted content, but you don't say where from. If the square brackets are your sources, I find it troublesome that the most recent might be from the 1930s (the Daigenkai). A lot has changed since then.

Setting aside the parsing of konata etc., are you of the opinion that the -ta element in konata etc. is different from the -ta element in heta? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:59, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

The copy-pasted etymology theory content in Japanese text were from the NKD2. Also yes, I do believe that the -nata terms are of different origin, particularly from -no kata. Chuterix (talk) 00:03, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

You said:

"I do believe that the -nata terms are of different origin, particularly from -no kata."

By this, to be perfectly clear, do you mean that, in your view, the -ta in heta cannot be from kata?

Also, do you view the -ta in heta as the same element as in hata (“edge”)? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 21:15, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

@Eirikr

• By this, to be perfectly clear, do you mean that, in your view, the -ta in heta cannot be from kata?

I mean, regularly it cannot derive from kata. Since there are terms like 袴 (hakama, “trousers”) I don't think a contractino of *pekata > (*pekta) > peta is natural. There are no etymology theory deriving peta from *pe-kata.

• Also, do you view the -ta in heta as the same element as in hata (“edge”)?

There may be a possibility. But there's no source to actually prove it, AFAIK. The etymology theories from the NKD2 read:

語源説
(1)ヘト（辺処）の転か〔大言海〕。
(2)ハタ（端）の義〔雅言考・嬉遊笑覧・和訓栞・国語の語根とその分類＝大島正健〕。
(3)ベツク（辺付）の義〔名言通〕。

As for 端 (hata, “edge”):

語源説
(1)ヘタの転〔大言海〕。
(2)ホカツラ（外列）の反〔名語記〕。
(3)端と端とが当たるとハタと音がするところから〔日本語源＝賀茂百樹〕。
(4)ハタ（端処）の義〔国語溯原＝大矢透〕。
(5)ハト（間所）の義〔言元梯〕。

I mean etymology theory 4 of hata may be plausible if it comes from earlier *pato2, due to Arisaka's law (Regardless, there is debate here at WT about whether it was type A to1 or type B to2). I mean, IIRC 処 (ko, affix of place) was said there's a possibility that this derives from an earlier type A ko1, and one tries to prove this with 都 (miyako, “capital”) and others. A footnote in Vovin (2020) A Descriptive and Comparative Grammar of Western Old Japanese (p. 268-269), while he is discussing OJ ここ (ko2ko2, “here”):

It is possible that *kǝ ‘place’ in kǝkǝ ‘here’ and sǝkǝ ‘there’ is a result of progressive vowel assimilation, cf. -ko ‘place’ with kō-rui vowel /o/ in miya-ko ‘capital (lit.: palace-place),’ where the conditions for such progressive assimilation are not present; as well as -ka ‘place’ in ar-i-ka ‘place to be’ and sum-i-ka ‘place to live,’ where -ka can be a truncation of *-kau (> -ko).

Chuterix (talk) 21:58, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

Re: elision, that tends to happen with the first mora of the latter element in a compound. Hakama is apparently from haka- + ma, so no elision. If the -ta in heta and hata is from kata, the kata would be the latter element, and thus potentially subject to contraction / elision, just as Frellesvig, Vovin, etc. posit for [ko / so / a / do]-na-ta.

Revisiting X-na-ta, I see that sonata and sono kata overlap, with sonata attested since the mid-900s and sonokata from Genji in around 1000. If sonata were derived from sono kata, I'd expect to see sonokata attested earlier. Apparently kanata is attested since 883, and anata since 905, while ano kata does not appear in text [until 1603 in the Nippo Jisho. The textual evidence is confusing.

The possibility also arises that kata itself (specifically the "way" sense, anyway) might be k[a/o] (location) + -ta (direction). Hmm. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 23:43, 19 March 2024 (UTC)

There is an attestation 是方爾 (KO₂NO₂ KATA ni, “in this way”, both ONCOJ and the University of Virginia text have this interpretation) in MYS.13.3299a and a completely phonographic variant 己乃加多爾 (ko₂no₂ kata ni) in the alternative version of poem 3299.

Meanwhile, there's just one attestation of KO₂NATA/KANATA in the Man'yoshu in poem 1192, 此方彼方二 (KO₂NATA SONATA ni, “in here and there”). It probably resembles a recent innovation just around the historical record of Japanese. Chuterix (talk) 01:15, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Agreed about ko₂no₂ kata ni, from context this must be "in this way".

For the UVA version of the MYS, I cannot find any instances at all of [こそあか]なた, aside from two case of あなた as part of the longer string あなたづたづし, in books 2 and 15. (Not looking for どなた since that didn't exist yet; and for that matter, あなた might not appear until the early 900s.)

For MYS 7.1192, I'm finding this text in the UVA version:

[原文]白栲尓 丹保布信土之 山川尓 吾馬難 家戀良下

[訓読]白栲ににほふ真土の山川に我が馬なづむ家恋ふらしも

[仮名],しろたへに,にほふまつちの,やまがはに,あがうまなづむ,いへこふらしも

From what I can find, the 此方彼方二 phrase appears instead in MYS 9.1809:

[原文]葦屋之 菟名負處女之 八年兒之 片生之時従 小放尓 髪多久麻弖尓 並居 家尓毛不所見 虚木綿乃 牢而座在者 見而師香跡 <悒>憤時之 垣廬成 人之誂時 智<弩><壮>士 宇奈比<壮>士乃 廬八燎 須酒師競 相結婚 為家類時者 焼大刀乃 手頴押祢利 白檀弓 <靫>取負而 入水 火尓毛将入跡 立向 競時尓 吾妹子之 母尓語久 倭<文>手纒 賎吾之故 大夫之 荒争見者 雖生 應合有哉 <宍>串呂 黄泉尓将待跡 隠沼乃 下延置而 打歎 妹之去者 血沼<壮>士 其夜夢見 取次寸 追去祁礼婆 後有 菟原<壮>士伊 仰天 Ｓ於良妣 ひ地 牙喫建怒而 如己男尓 負而者不有跡 懸佩之 小劔取佩 冬ふ蕷都良 尋去祁礼婆 親族共 射歸集 永代尓 標将為跡 遐代尓 語将継常 處女墓 中尓造置 <壮>士墓 此方彼方二 造置有 故縁聞而 雖不知 新喪之如毛 哭泣鶴鴨

[訓読]葦屋の 菟原娘子の 八年子の 片生ひの時ゆ 小放りに 髪たくまでに 並び居る 家にも見えず 虚木綿の 隠りて居れば 見てしかと いぶせむ時の 垣ほなす 人の問ふ時 茅渟壮士 菟原壮士の 伏屋焚き すすし競ひ 相よばひ しける時は 焼太刀の 手かみ押しねり 白真弓 靫取り負ひて 水に入り 火にも入らむと 立ち向ひ 競ひし時に 我妹子が 母に語らく しつたまき いやしき我が故 ますらをの 争ふ見れば 生けりとも 逢ふべくあれや ししくしろ 黄泉に待たむと 隠り沼の 下延へ置きて うち嘆き 妹が去ぬれば 茅渟壮士 その夜夢に見 とり続き 追ひ行きければ 後れたる 菟原壮士い 天仰ぎ 叫びおらび 地を踏み きかみたけびて もころ男に 負けてはあらじと 懸け佩きの 小太刀取り佩き ところづら 尋め行きければ 親族どち い行き集ひ 長き代に 標にせむと 遠き代に 語り継がむと 娘子墓 中に造り置き 壮士墓 このもかのもに 造り置ける 故縁聞きて 知らねども 新裳のごとも 哭泣きつるかも

[仮名],あしのやの,うなひをとめの,やとせこの,かたおひのときゆ,をばなりに,かみたくまでに,ならびをる,いへにもみえず,うつゆふの,こもりてをれば,みてしかと,いぶせむときの,かきほなす,ひとのとふとき,ちぬをとこ,うなひをとこの,ふせやたき,すすしきほひ,あひよばひ,しけるときは,やきたちの,たかみおしねり,しらまゆみ,ゆきとりおひて,みづにいり,ひにもいらむと,たちむかひ,きほひしときに,わぎもこが,ははにかたらく,しつたまき,いやしきわがゆゑ,ますらをの,あらそふみれば,いけりとも,あふべくあれや,ししくしろ,よみにまたむと,こもりぬの,したはへおきて,うちなげき,いもがいぬれば,ちぬをとこ,そのよいめにみ,とりつづき,おひゆきければ,おくれたる,うなひをとこい,あめあふぎ,さけびおらび,つちをふみ,きかみたけびて,もころをに,まけてはあらじと,かけはきの,をだちとりはき,ところづら,とめゆきければ,うがらどち,いゆきつどひ,ながきよに,しるしにせむと,とほきよに,かたりつがむと,をとめはか,なかにつくりおき,をとこはか,このもかのもに,つくりおける,ゆゑよしききて,しらねども,にひものごとも,ねなきつるかも

See also the Weblio entries for このも and かのも (Sakura Paris appears to be down for me at the moment).

While the このも and かのも readings are unexpected for me (I'd never encountered these two words before), they do appear to fit the context, as best I can follow it in a quick look-through (limited time right now, haven't gone through the whole poem yet).

I note also that 此方彼方二 could not include any そなた reading: 彼方 would have to be かなた, as the そ morpheme in OJP would have been spelled either phonetically or using the 其 kanji. Consequently, any source giving a reading of そなた for 彼方 in this poem must be either mistaken, or taking liberties with the original text. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)