User talk:SwordofStorms
Latest comment: 8 months ago by DCDuring in topic Context labels
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Context labels
[edit]Hi, be aware that a context label usually indicates restricted usage: you might add "Louisiana" or "New York City" to an entry if it is only used or understood in these regions. See Wiktionary:Context labels. Jberkel 08:19, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
- But don't misuse them just to indicate where the defined object comes from. If a Lane cake is truly only called "Lane cake" in the South US, what would it be called elsewhere in the world? Equinox ◑ 20:04, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- It's not found in the rest of the world, hence my adding. The edits I'm making are largely to expand/pad out the library of US regionalisms. There were many other dishes that are only regionally available before I started editing here that were given such context labels. "Cincinnati chili" had a "Cincinnati" context label, "hushpuppy" had a "Southern US" context label, etc. Each of the food items I've added, as far as I'm aware, only exist in the regions I described. Someone from outside the South would likely simply refer to a hushpuppy as 'deep fried corn meal' when encountering it for the first time. Also I've been cross-referencing to Wikipedia for literally every entry I've made. SwordofStorms (talk) 20:14, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree. An English speaker from the USA, Canada, Trinidad, Jamaica or elsewhere who comes to Scotland and encounters haggis will call it haggis. They might have to be taught the word but it's still haggis. The referent being exotic is very different from something being a local, different word for an everyday thing (e.g. "sidewalk" vs "pavement"). Equinox ◑ 20:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Okay well then you don't disagree with me, you disagree with the precedent set by entries before me. I've just made things consistent. SwordofStorms (talk) 20:39, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- Is there? I thought it was said that "lb|xx|PLACENAME" was only to be used if a term is used in PLACENAME only. (You could add a category like en:Southern US to place the terms whose referents only exist in the Southern US, as well.) CitationsFreak (talk) 21:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Yes that's exactly what I'm doing, adding terms whose referents only exist regionally. SwordofStorms (talk) 21:28, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Is there? I thought it was said that "lb|xx|PLACENAME" was only to be used if a term is used in PLACENAME only. (You could add a category like en:Southern US to place the terms whose referents only exist in the Southern US, as well.) CitationsFreak (talk) 21:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Okay well then you don't disagree with me, you disagree with the precedent set by entries before me. I've just made things consistent. SwordofStorms (talk) 20:39, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- I disagree. An English speaker from the USA, Canada, Trinidad, Jamaica or elsewhere who comes to Scotland and encounters haggis will call it haggis. They might have to be taught the word but it's still haggis. The referent being exotic is very different from something being a local, different word for an everyday thing (e.g. "sidewalk" vs "pavement"). Equinox ◑ 20:37, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
- The Eiffel Tower only exists in Paris but that doesn't make it "Eiffel Tower" Parisian French. Equinox ◑ 21:30, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SwordofStorms, I see where you're coming from, in thinking "It's not found in the rest of the world", but that's not correct and it is not how labels are used (despite your claims above). Compare Wenksville: few if any people outside Pennsylvania ever discuss the place, but that doesn't mean the placename is specific to (Pennsylvania) dialect; anyone speaking any dialect would call the place that if discussing it. You need to distinguish between when a term is regional and when the referent is discussed elsewhere it is called by other terms (like toboggan for a particular kind of hat), vs when the referent itself is just not much discussed outside of a particular place, but when it is discussed (anywhere) it is by the given term. I sympathize that this is not always an easy distinction to make, but you need to make the distinction, and add labels only when the term (not the referent) is regional; if you are not sure about a particular word, you should ask for input in e.g. the WT:Tea Room. (Please join Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2024/February#Glossing_entries_based_on_where_the_referent_is_found.) PS, cheesesteak is made and sold all over the US, so nothing about it is restricted, neither the term nor even the referent. - -sche (discuss) 21:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- People do think of cheesesteak as a regional dish (Philadelphia, not just any part of Pennsylvania). A better example is Waldorf salad. People make, eat and talk about Waldorf salads all over the US, at the very least, and a lot of them don't know anything about any connection to New York. That's just part of the history of the recipe- something to mention in the etymology or in an encyclopedia article. There are all kinds of foods that came from a specific place, but we don't want them in the regional categories for those places- French fries don't belong in Category:French English (especially since they didn't come from France). Chuck Entz (talk) 22:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- As I've said, there were a multitude of entries with labels in this vain well before I started editing. I'm sorry if these were in themselves mistakes but I can tell you there were dozens of entries labeled this way. Feel free do undo any mistakes you think I've made, I would hope that people would do that, I'm no oracle. It's not everything I've done though I've also added countless non-cuisine related lexical items to the American English category. SwordofStorms (talk) 23:37, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- Okay well then I hope you enjoy removing the "Southern US" context label from 'sweet tea,' the "South Africa" context label from 'bunny chow,' the "British/New Zealand" context label from 'bangers and mash' and all other such entries. SwordofStorms (talk) 23:26, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- What is your source of regional usage information? DCDuring (talk) 15:27, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
- People do think of cheesesteak as a regional dish (Philadelphia, not just any part of Pennsylvania). A better example is Waldorf salad. People make, eat and talk about Waldorf salads all over the US, at the very least, and a lot of them don't know anything about any connection to New York. That's just part of the history of the recipe- something to mention in the etymology or in an encyclopedia article. There are all kinds of foods that came from a specific place, but we don't want them in the regional categories for those places- French fries don't belong in Category:French English (especially since they didn't come from France). Chuck Entz (talk) 22:36, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
- SwordofStorms, I see where you're coming from, in thinking "It's not found in the rest of the world", but that's not correct and it is not how labels are used (despite your claims above). Compare Wenksville: few if any people outside Pennsylvania ever discuss the place, but that doesn't mean the placename is specific to (Pennsylvania) dialect; anyone speaking any dialect would call the place that if discussing it. You need to distinguish between when a term is regional and when the referent is discussed elsewhere it is called by other terms (like toboggan for a particular kind of hat), vs when the referent itself is just not much discussed outside of a particular place, but when it is discussed (anywhere) it is by the given term. I sympathize that this is not always an easy distinction to make, but you need to make the distinction, and add labels only when the term (not the referent) is regional; if you are not sure about a particular word, you should ask for input in e.g. the WT:Tea Room. (Please join Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2024/February#Glossing_entries_based_on_where_the_referent_is_found.) PS, cheesesteak is made and sold all over the US, so nothing about it is restricted, neither the term nor even the referent. - -sche (discuss) 21:56, 17 February 2024 (UTC)