User talk:Fay Freak

Welcome

Hello, welcome to Wiktionary, and thank you for your contributions so far.

If you are unfamiliar with wiki-editing, take a look at Help:How to edit a page. It is a concise list of technical guidelines to the wiki format we use here: how to, for example, make text boldfaced or create hyperlinks. Feel free to practice in the sandbox. If you would like a slower introduction we have a short tutorial.

These links may help you familiarize yourself with Wiktionary:

• Entry layout (EL) is a detailed policy on Wiktionary's page formatting; all entries must conform to it. The easiest way to start off is to copy the contents of an existing same-language entry, and then adapt it to fit the entry you are creating.
• Check out Language considerations to find out more about how to edit for a particular language.
• Our Criteria for Inclusion (CFI) defines exactly which words can be added to Wiktionary; the most important part is that Wiktionary only accepts words that have been in somewhat widespread use over the course of at least a year, and citations that demonstrate usage can be asked for when there is doubt.
• If you already have some experience with editing our sister project Wikipedia, then you may find our guide for Wikipedia users useful.
• If you have any questions, bring them to Wiktionary:Information desk or ask me on my talk page.
• Whenever commenting on any discussion page, please sign your posts with four tildes (~~~~) which automatically produces your username and timestamp.
• You are encouraged to add a BabelBox to your userpage to indicate your self-assessed knowledge of languages.

Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! PseudoSkull (talk) 05:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

It's good to see you back. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 03:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Welcome back, Pal. Per utramque cavernam 17:38, 12 July 2018 (UTC)

Welcome back! —Aryaman^{A (मुझसे बात करें • योगदान)} 21:30, 14 July 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, welcome back! (Sorry about my accidental rollback; I’ve reverted myself.) — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 11:19, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes, welcome. --Vahag (talk) 16:38, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

طاووس

Any sources that discuss the etymology? It's obviously related to the Greek and Hebrew forms, but I can't tell which way the borrowings went. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 16:07, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@Metaknowledge Better ask @Profes.I., he apparently has better sources and perhaps he can say more about ταώς (taṓs). I don’t know what sources I miss, but I think he is from the Chicago Oriental Institute. Hey Profes.I., don’t forget to watch Category:Requests for expansion of etymologies in Arabic entries so we can write etymology stubs. Fay Freak (talk) 17:22, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Its a rather convoluted debate so I will just outline some facts to consider:

• The earliest concrete references in Greek to the bird are found post-Persian conflict; Aristotle calls it a 'Persian Bird', Aristophanes uses them also despairingly as symbols of gaudy-dressed ambassadors, a jab perhaps also at the colorful foreign Persians.

• τᾰών (taṓn), another word being glossed as 'peacock' was used prior, appearing even in Homer and Hesiod mean something like fair-dressed, beautifully adorned, birds in a general way for their colorful feathers, not inherently referring to a peacock. This gives it a potential to possibly not be a foreign loan, but rather derived from a precursor word that was then reapplied to a peacock in later times. ([1])

• The Akkadian attestation of peacock is 𒀭𒄩𒉌𒄷 (Ha-ia), suggested to be named after the sound it makes, connected and written as the god linked to guarding the storehouses, keeping food supplies, perhaps the 'eyes' of its plumage linking it to a 'watcher' like in the Greek mythology. There is however a loanword from Sumerian 𒀉𒍗𒍑𒄷 (ti-uš, tius, tiuz, “a bird”) {[2]}, the general conception seems to be sudden in appearance, initially unseen, to swoop or come out of seemingly nowhere, to come upon quickly, to rush or dart, hence the speculated identity of an eagle or vulture. Perhaps instead a reference to the peacocks sudden opening of its plumage, being dazzling or darting up.

• There is a Semitic root likely derived from the Sumerian loan found in the Hebrew and Aramaic verb טוּשׂ (ṭus, ṭūs, “to fly, to rush, to dart, to swoop”) {[3][4]} and in the Arabic ط س س (ṭ-s-s) meaning to strike suddenly, to smite, to be struck blind, to be blinded or to lose ones ability to think; hence the connection again to being dazzled; likewise Lane and others like J.G. Hava mention ط ش ش (ṭ-š-š) having the meaning of weakness in sight, to be faint.

Needless to say its very interesting and without definitive direction; the Greek could have borrowed the term from Akkadian through the Persian cultural bridging or perhaps from earlier borrowed constellation traditions; there however is a missing Persian term that would ease the mystery.

Additionally, it should be stated the whole connection தோகை (tōkai, “plumage, peacock”) is actually for another Hebrew term תוכי (túki, “parrot, peacock”) which developed semantically later from commentaries on verse 1 Kings 10:22 ([5]}; the reconstructed meaning found in many modern translation is that of baboon or monkey. --Profes.I. (talk)

ترس

You inserted {{taxlink}} in this entry, for which I thank you.

However, you did not insert the rank of the taxonomic name, "species" in this case. If you are going to verify the entry, please insert the rank.

Within {{taxlink}} you inserted "ver=180716". In this case I'd rather you hadn't. I check each new taxonomic name to see that whether is spelled correctly, whether there is a taxonomic name that supersedes it, and whether the rank of the name is correct. I don't expect others to do all that, as it can be time-consuming and has some idiosyncracies. OTOH, if you find that there is a Wikispecies entry for the taxon or that the Wikipedia article uses the taxonomic name, feel free to insert "ver=YYMMDD".

The most important thing from my perspective is that {{taxlink}} be used, because I track new entries that use it. DCDuring (talk) 17:47, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

@DCDuring Oh! I actually deliberated about if I should use it because if one uses the two-word form Genus species it is usually understood as species, so I thought that I have to write |2=species only when I use a species name alone. Fay Freak (talk) 17:57, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

For a general-purpose dictionary we can't assume that the user knows much more than a bare-minimum English vocabulary, certainly not much about taxonomy, however obvious it is after just a few encounters with taxa. The second parameter does not display; it categorizes and, sometimes in the case of one-part names, it disambiguates. Anyway, I'm happy that you use {{taxlink}}. There are certainly many taxonomic names that are worth entering into Wiktionary, especially the ones for macroflora and macrofauna, disease agents, newly discovered species, items of bizarre appearance, or unusual names, etc. DCDuring (talk) 21:03, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

What does |i= in diff mean? I don’t find a documentation. @DCDuring Fay Freak (talk) 21:00, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, it should be in the documentation. It puts the displayed parameter in italics. That is relevant for genus and species names and various other subgeneric taxa and for all virus taxa. The display is not as precise as the display used in {{taxlink}}, but is good for almost all cases and not too bad for the others. DCDuring (talk) 23:13, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I have no idea how to get it into all the places it would have to be, especially since I don't know the scope of the modules that implement the italicization. I don't know how to find the relevant author of whatever the module might be. See User Talk:Rua. DCDuring (talk) 23:27, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

{{projectlink}} probably should contain more documentation. I see only convoluted links, too. Fay Freak (talk) 23:31, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

It does not seem to be much promising to ask Rua for documentation, or? I think you have noticed she is avoiding this site for months now, or no? Well umm, she apparently left because she did things that she could not made be understood. Really sad. Fay Freak (talk) 23:49, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I've never had much luck. Some others did.

For the matter at hand, I'll jury-rig some documentation. In any event, you know what it means. DCDuring (talk) 00:11, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

@DCDuring {{desc}} should get |i=, right? For botanical terms descending as from لُوف (lūf), isatis or whatever. Fay Freak (talk) 20:50, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I disagree with this suggestion. --Victar (talk) 21:05, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I put italics to names of genera that are 'Translingual' descendants of terms. If {{desc}} doesn't do it and {{taxlink}} would be redundant, then I would bypass {{desc}} and use wikitext italics with {{l|mul}}. The point is that genus names are prescribed to appear in italics and most users follow the prescription. IOW, yes. DCDuring (talk) 23:16, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

Ok, the case seems clear to me, @Rua, Erutuon. No exceptions to taxonomic names being in italics. I guess the function needs to be generalized to catch {{cog}} at least too, for once Beta vulgaris var. cicla is created we won’t link correctly from свёкла (svjókla), for example. (putting double ASCII apostrophes inside does not work.) Actually to every template adding a language name in front, because double ASCII apostrophes inside does not work and outside the template even the langname is capitalized. Theoretically also to other templates where the language name is not there, i.e. {{l}} and {{m}} the |i= is needed, because a module recognizes what parts need to be capitalized (not the part ”var.” and the like) if I guess right, it is just that we do not use them necessarily for Translingual but use normal Wiki links. I don’t think I am completely abusing Descendants and Etymology sections by mentioning taxonomical terms? It is just that linguists miss the whole field of taxonomical names as a research topic. Module:etymology/templates and {{desc}} need to be protected by the way. Fay Freak (talk) 23:39, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@DCDuring, can you point me to a discussion where "most users" agreed to this convention of italicizing genus names in descendants list? --Victar (talk) 23:47, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@Victar It is botanists’ convention. We adhere to it like we adhere to Unicode’s standards. Some things we cannot decide. Good that we do not need to think about everything but there are people like the Unicode Consortium or doing biological classification. Division of labour. Fay Freak (talk) 23:49, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

I understand that, I'm aware of the practice. I'm specifically talking about how descendants of a word are treated in a descendants lists. --Victar (talk) 23:54, 30 August 2018 (UTC)

@Victar I have intimated it already. “It is just that linguists miss the whole field of taxonomical names as a research topic.” People here are not likely to care, but those who deal with taxonomy … just a little thought for you: If you go to Wikispecies and ask everyone how we should treat taxonomic names also in these cases, what will they very likely answer? I claim, and I doubt you will tend to disagree, they will say unanimously: “Just make it italicized always, guys!” I. e. if we include those names at all. Fay Freak (talk) 00:04, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

That's you're argument, that we should ask what the guys at Wikispecies think? The descendants section section has to do with etymology, and etymologists, by in large, don't care about italicizing genus names. Those are the people I care for the opinions of and will base my practices upon. --Victar (talk) 00:11, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

At Wikispecies, Wikipedia, and Wikicommons they are careful to properly format taxonomic names. If etymologists don't care, then the appearance of italics in taxonomic descendants shouldn't matter to them. DCDuring (talk) 00:19, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Yes, he gainsays himself already. “The” etymologists don’t even care about “genus names”, taxonomical names that is to say, as I said, hence they do not have the issue in mind, i. e. they do not mind.

@Victar: Can you point me to a discussion where users disagree to have taxonomical names in etymology sections? If we have them, we will format them as it beseems. You evidently do not care about them at all anyway. Also it’s very autistic not to look outside the editors of en.Wiktionary (necessarily you retreat to such argumentation, as you are too smart not to see that they will disrespect it). What will the world think of us if we won’t italicize taxonomic names with regularity? Something that will harm the en.Wiktionary brand, corroborating the notion that this project is all a joke like Wikipedia is, the editors pointing to interna instead of common sense or scientific practices and winning with it. You still haven’t said a single reason, not to speak one of a weight that unsettles, why you don’t want that italicization. Fay Freak (talk) 00:30, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

@DCDuring: By "do not care", I mean blatantly disregard said conventions. --Victar (talk) 01:00, 31 August 2018 (UTC)

Arabic word for ‘epilepsy’

Is there a form صرعة (ṣarʿa) beside صَرْع (ṣarʕ) meaning ‘epilepsy’? I need to account for Turkish sara and Armenian սարա (sara, “epilepsy”). --Vahag (talk) 11:04, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Vahag: صَرْعَة (ṣarʕa) is, apparently, an instance of epilepsy, the (single) time of epilepsy. The ending ـة (tāʾ marbūṭa) has, among other things, a singulative meaning. The term also means craze, fashion, vogue. [6] and [7]--Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 11:46, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, Anatoli and Fay Freak. --Vahag (talk) 13:28, 23 July 2018 (UTC)

Aramaic

Hi. Can you create Aramaic pālaḥ? It is a noun means "servant", if I'm not mistaken.--Calak (talk) 18:49, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

@Calak Already there: פלחא /‎ ܦܠܚܐ. Here on Wiktionary it can be observed that the Aramaic nouns are in the emphatic state (= Arabic determinate state) and thus bear an aleph. Fay Freak (talk) 19:00, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, I add Kurdish descendants.--Calak (talk) 19:27, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Fay Freak

I loathe your current name. I can't even take it seriously. Please stop changing your username all the time. --Victar (talk) 17:43, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

@Victar These are two legit English words fam. And according to the usual Germanic naming patterns, the latter part equaling German frech, i. q. keen, sprightly. Fay Freak (talk) 18:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

You've actually made me hate your name more, "fam". --Victar (talk) 20:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Nice name...--Calak (talk) 18:44, 28 August 2018 (UTC)

Calak, there might be something wrong with your Google Translate settings from English. --Victar (talk) 21:02, 28 August 2018 (UTC)