Talk:how many

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how many[edit]

SOP. See also my comments under [[#how_long]], just above.​—msh210℠ (talk) 10:03, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:11, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. DCDuring TALK 16:07, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep, just as above under [[#how_long]]. --Anatoli 23:26, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. We need some kind of COALMINE-like policy for multiword entries that have so many single-word translations. --Yair rand (talk) 23:52, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Phrases such as how many, how much, and how long, are idiomatic and have an important place in any language. If it were SoP, you would be able to translate it into virtually any language just by looking up the translations of the parts...but this will not work, because it is not SoP. For instance, "how many" in Spanish is not "cómo muchos". —Stephen 23:58, 29 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, conflicting senses (or interpretations) of idiomatic. Anything that can have an 'unexpected' translation can be idiomatic in that sense. FWIW CFI never tries to explain what idiomatic means, so that's a good get out clause. Mglovesfun (talk) 00:01, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Sure CFI explains what idiomatic means (for purposes of inclusion. What it means in its dictionary definition doesn't matter). It devotes an entire section to what idiomatic means: [[Wiktionary:CFI#Idiomaticity]]. The main thrust of that section is in its first sentence: "An expression is “idiomatic” if its full meaning cannot be easily derived from the meaning of its separate components."​—msh210℠ (talk) 12:24, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Strong keep. I don't agree, in general, with Stephen G. Brown's definition of SoP — even translating something as simple as "I saw it" requires knowing a great deal about the target language's grammar (word order, verb tense/aspect/mood/evidentiality/agreement/etc., noun and pronoun case/definiteness/number/gender/etc., which pronouns are droppable, etc., etc., etc.) — but how much and how many seem like no-brainers to me. —RuakhTALK 03:11, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
You haven't explained your reasons for keeping the entry, Ruakh. BTW, isn't it amazing in how many languages how much and how many are translated as single words? I just can't think of them as SoP. --Anatoli 03:24, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I said it seems like a no-brainer to me, how much more reason do you want? :-P   But yeah, one factor is probably how they're single words in the other languages I speak. (But there's more to it than that. The other languages I speak also all have single words or hyphenated compounds meaning "the day before yesterday" and "the day after tomorrow", but said still seem SOP to me. "How much" and "how many", by contrast, really feel like set phrases to me, question words almost on par with "who" and "what" and "how". Technically they can be explained as sums of parts, since much and many both accept modification by degree adverbs, and one of how's uses is as the interrogative degree adverb, but I don't think speakers think of them that way. At least, this speaker doesn't.) —RuakhTALK 22:33, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
But most speakers don't consciously think of such words at all. And students of language may be the worst ones to "introspect". Until such time as we can read exactly what actually happens inside user brains, we could use some kind of more criteria that don't involve either introspection or imagination. Many here may live to see the day when there is some actual science to determining whether there is a difference between (deprecated template usage) combien and (deprecated template usage) how many or (deprecated template usage) how much in the minds of equivalent native speakers. DCDuring TALK 23:14, 30 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I'm a big admirer of your advocacy of developing and following good criteria; but when we lack clear criteria, I have to fall back on introspection. Sorry! —RuakhTALK 02:14, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Very Strong keep. It's a pure idiomatic expression. Once again: think of the foreigners who are learning Shakespeare's language. How a Frenchman, a Spaniard, an Italian, a German, etc. could guess that the English how many means in their respective languages, combien, cuánto, quanto, wieviel? Apart from that, let me remind that these foreign words can be translated in two manners in English : with how many, but also with how much, depending on the meaning. Therefore, deleting how many would be a terrible mistake. --Actarus (Prince d'Euphor) 10:55, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
I think idiomatic […] as long as you don't speak English. Perhaps keep and add to Category:English non-idiomatic translation targets. But delete any [how + adjective]. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:53, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
At least in German, wie+viel suggests "how much" almost immediately. Equinox ◑ 21:33, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Keep I did not understand why you want to delete it Pamputt 12:19, 1 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Kept. DAVilla 07:00, 2 July 2010 (UTC)[reply]

RFV discussion: September 2018[edit]

This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

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  • Rfv-sense L3 Pronoun "unspecified amount"
  • Rfv-sense L3 Pronoun "what amount"

Anyone able to figure out how there might be a pronoun use? - Amgine/ t·e 21:06, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I have cited what I think the editor probably meant. Kiwima (talk) 23:50, 7 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Re "how many are the evils..." and "how many are those...": the citations do not appear to fit "unspecified amount". These cites are expressing "there are very many of these; they are numerous". Equinox ◑ 17:39, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Two of the three cites for the "unspecified amount" definition incorporate it in rhetorical questions, which introduces some ambiguity; one of the four cites for the "what amount" definition is also a rhetorical question.
I think both definitions are wrong: the word number (countable) should be substituted for amount (uncountable). DCDuring (talk) 21:45, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why don't you take a stab at improving the definitions? Kiwima (talk) 23:08, 8 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Does no one have any opinions on such things anymore? DCDuring (talk) 20:09, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I do get it that it's annoying for you to find a bunch of cites and then have them criticised, but as long as I think they don't match the definitions I'm going to do so. I open more RFVs than I resolve but (IMO) that's because we have a lot of bad entries that can't actually be adequately cited. I don't do it to waste people's time. Equinox ◑ 22:56, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
An I agree that the definitions are lacking. I was mostly digging up cites that illustrate use as a pronoun, as opposed to a determiner. In this particular case, I don't particularly have a better definition, and thought maybe someone else could work on producing one that matches the cites. Kiwima (talk) 23:40, 9 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The other dictionaries that have this either have what number as a def. or a non-gloss definition. Most other dictionaries have an appropriate sense at how which works no matter whether it precedes determiners, adjectives, or adjectives. I wonder how many of the translations given in the entry fit translations of all three of the usage examples I have added. DCDuring (talk) 00:24, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking maybe when you see the definition of cuanto, you would see what it shows more
Or you would understand the meaning more. — Osbri (talk) 10:36, 9 September 2018 (ET)
are you thinking of uses like "take how many you want"? I hear that kind of thing. Helenpaws (talk) 04:43, 10 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think I was thinking that or something like that

Or maybe I was thinking “how many you see” Or “you have how many”. — Osbri (talk) 19:09, 10 September 2018 (ET)

I need a little help in clarifying the examples. As I read them the first two seem wrong.
?"take how many you want"
"Take as many as you want", "Take however many you want"
  • "How many you see?"
"How many do you see?"
Is "you have how many" a question, which would be good colloquial usage, or a statement, which would be wrong? DCDuring (talk) 09:33, 11 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think “you have how many” might show a question. Maybe “how many” might have what “what” or “many” might have
Or have some meaning or function that “what” or “many” might have. What might some of you think? — Osbri (talk) 15:48, 15 September 2018 (ET)
RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 03:23, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]


RFD discussion: September 2018–June 2019[edit]

The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for deletion (permalink).

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The second sense under the Pronoun L2 seems duplicative of the determiner sense claimed to be a translation hub. DCDuring (talk) 04:19, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Do you want to remove it completely or can it be turned into a translation hub? I think the translations are the same. 83.216.80.232 05:47, 27 September 2018 (UTC)[reply]


how few[edit]

Why not add also how few ?--Backinstadiums (talk) 15:45, 20 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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