Talk:once an Eagle, always an Eagle

From Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to navigation Jump to search

RFV discussion: November 2017–January 2018[edit]

The following information has failed Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Failure to be verified means that insufficient eligible citations of this usage have been found, and the entry therefore does not meet Wiktionary inclusion criteria at the present time. We have archived here the disputed information, the verification discussion, and any documentation gathered so far, pending further evidence.
Do not re-add this information to the article without also submitting proof that it meets Wiktionary's criteria for inclusion.

Rfv-sense.

I can't imagine any figurative scenario where someone would refer to someone as an Eagle Scout if they're not one. This has been added several times, but I think it's untrue that the phrase can have this meaning. PseudoSkull (talk) 17:05, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It seems no odder than "a leopard cannot change its spots", where we call someone a leopard who isn't one. I found two likely cites and have added those; any more? Equinox ◑ 18:45, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Isn't this a snowclone? It certainly seems less inclusion-worthy than the proverb once a king, always a king, but once a knight is enough.

@ User:Equinox Now I think I understand. So, Eagle capitalized only refers to an Eagle Scout, the highest rank in Boy Scouts of America. The eagle, on the other hand, is the bird. So, if there is a figurative use of once an eagle, always an eagle, we should move it to there. I had thought that the adder of this entry was referring to a figurative use of the term for "Eagle Scout", as if Eagle Scout is the noun for comparison, but the confused editor actually meant the noun for comparison to be just eagle. PseudoSkull (talk) 21:10, 30 November 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A bit rude to delete the cites I found for you. Anyone closing this discussion, please check the entry history to decide. Equinox ◑ 07:06, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]
@ User:Equinox Sorry about the way that came across. I will make up for it by creating a new entry with the citations you gave. (edit: see once an eagle, always an eagle) PseudoSkull (talk) 09:25, 1 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

RFV-failed. Kiwima (talk) 21:35, 1 January 2018 (UTC)[reply]

RFD discussion: June 2020–June 2021[edit]

The following information has failed Wiktionary's deletion process (permalink).

It should not be re-entered without careful consideration.

Definition given: "(Scouting) Once someone has attained the Eagle Scout rank, their possession of the rank should not be referred to in the past tense, regardless of age, and an Eagle Scout cannot ever be stripped of their rank." Really this is just a (rather specific) snowclone form of something that should ideally be at Appendix:Snowclones/once a(n) X, always a(n) X, if it should be on the dictionary at all (because even the snowclone itself seems to me to be SOP, but perhaps that can be a discussion after that entry is created).

For example purposes I'll use the usernames of Erutuon and Surjection; hopefully they don't mind. There's no particular reason for picking them. I just picked randomly off the top of my head...

If Erutuon, an active contributor to Wiktionary, had left Wiktionary starting today, Erutuon might one day by mere coincidence meet one of their former Wiktionary buddies, Surjection, IRL or on some other website, 21 years later in 2041. During the conversation with Surjection, Erutuon states "Ah, pfft, who are you kidding? I'm not a Wiktionarian anymore. I haven't been online there for over two decades!" Surjection might say "Hey, once a Wiktionarian, always a Wiktionarian." And this form is completely usable (although I doubt we could attest the "Wiktionarian" form, especially in durably archived sources). It means exactly the same thing, just in a different context; no matter how long Erutuon would be gone, they will always be considered a community member at Wiktionary. PseudoSkull (talk) 00:58, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Update: It looks like Appendix:Snowclones/once a X, always a X exists after all, which I didn't realize before. That's even more of a compelling reason to delete. PseudoSkull (talk) 01:24, 29 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Surely it's "an X" not "a X". Asking the real questions. Equinox ◑ 20:58, 30 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Yeaaah, delete per nom. - -sche (discuss) 00:55, 1 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per nom. --Uisleach (talk) 21:02, 3 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I find the Snowclone appendix rather impractical. Better represent each snowclone in the mainspace in its highest-frequency instantiation and redirect some other high-frequency instantiations to it. What are some very common instantiations of "once a X, always a X"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:13, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I would support either moving snowclones (back) into mainspace, or at least creating soft redirects in mainspace from high-frequency instantiations to the relevant appendix, to make the content more findable/searchable. It could be confusing for readers who input something like "night is the new day" to wind up on a very different entry like "orange is the new black", where the definition would presumably focus on those colours, and not night or day (perhaps some other X is the new Y phrase is in fact most common, but my point is that users will be redirected from values of X and Y very different from the ones the lemma entry defines, if we're picking an actual phrase instead of using placeholders) so it might be better to redirect users either to the existing "X is the new Y" appendix, or to a mainspace entry that used placeholders like that ("X is the new Y"). - -sche (discuss) 16:58, 4 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
A mainspace entry X is the new Y to which high-freq instantiations hard-redirect seems quite palatable to me, as a proposal, and it would address the objection that hard redirect to the representing instantiation could be confusing. And having a soft redirect of the form, say "An instantiation of snowclone represented at night is the new day" should also be considered for instantiations with relatively high frequency; then we can also provide quotations in the instantiation entry. The hard or soft redirects should only be created for high-frequency instantiations; creating them for all attested instantiations would defy the objective of creating a compact representation of what is one thing, a snowclone pattern. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:56, 8 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep once an Eagle, always an Eagle in some form, possibly as a soft redirect to Appendix:Snowclones/once a X, always a X. Other proposals are above. Are all the deletions of snowclone instances in keeping with WT:CFI? --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:44, 9 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete/move to the snowclones appendix. PUC – 13:07, 15 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete, a use of a snowclone. J3133 (talk) 18:07, 4 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:13, 12 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The phrase "once a...always a" probably has potential Purplebackpack89 14:54, 12 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Once an editor, always an editor. Facts707 (talk) 02:48, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Deleted. bd2412 T 02:02, 3 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:once_an_Eagle,_always_an_Eagle&oldid=62705302"