Talk:who shot John

Used to shut down long, involved excuses and blame game

Gunny DD Barton Ret. Here. First time I heard the phrase was in the Corps circa 1970's. Used to shut down an involved smoke and mirrors explanation of an event or more simply, the excuses and blame game for the event transpiring. You may now resume your regularly scheduled editing.

The idiom "who shot John" has nothing to do with Judge Judy, it's an old Texarkana expression. I've heard that expression since 1948, Judge Judy wasn't even a teenager then. It can mean "don't give me a rambling explanation", or "you look like somebody who needs an excuse for looking so bad". One example - a father says to child, "I want to know what happened, and leave out the who shot John." Or a dad tells his teenage daughter who has on too much inexpertly applied makeup and ripped jeans, "Don't go outside looking like who shot John." In both senses it means bullshit. Another example, "I got the whole who shot John already." Meaning, I have been overly informed ad nauseam about the situation. That the truth and no who shot John.

Deleted the etymology. DAVilla 02:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

RFV

This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process.

Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.

---

Anyone besides Judge Judy and fans? --Connel MacKenzie 05:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

I think I’ve heard this phrase all my life (or at least the last 50 years of it). —Stephen 05:35, 15 April 2007 (UTC)

Now cited, -ish. The cites don't actually seem to agree with the given etymology and sense. —Ruakh_TALK 18:20, 22 April 2007 (UTC)

RFV passed. DAVilla 02:36, 1 May 2007 (UTC)

I am just curious to know why this entry has not been corrected. I am over 55 years of age and my parents have used the term "lookin' like who shot john" for as long as I've been in the world. (Prior to 1979 as indicated here. I anticipate this entry will be deleted (and that's fine), I just wish to call it to the editors' attention that the wiktionary definitions here need to be corrected or at least include an asterisk as to the true origins of the phrase, even if that be unknown. My great grandmother (who just died at the ripe old age of 109.5) always said it. I think it's of southern origin because while I've almost always heard black people say it, I've heard some white folks down south use it. When I've heard it - "Girl you look like who shot John!" that meant we looked a mess, dishelved. clothes dirty or hair messy. I heard it most when I woke up in the morning with bed hair or after coming inside from playing outside. — This comment was unsigned.

I don't doubt what you say. But we didn't come across usage in the sense you mention when we were finding quotes for the definition we have. When someone has the chance, they may look for usage in books (probably fictional dialog) and insert a definition. DCDuring TALK 23:16, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

I have found evidence of the expression going back to 1917, where it is used without explanation or reference to anything specific. If I had to make a bet, I would be on a US origin and identify "John" as w:John Wilkes Booth. Citations:who shot John has the highlights of the evidence. The negative evidence is the absence of any similar indication of one particular "John". It could have no specific reference, of course, John just being a very common name.

See also the citations page for quotes of "like who shot John". DCDuring TALK 16:29, 3 April 2010 (UTC)

Here's an interesting one:

Cheers! bd2412 T 03:23, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Yup. I had noticed that when working on the entry, but was more motivated to work on what I did. That's also an interesting use of peg#Noun. DCDuring TALK 11:35, 27 April 2010 (UTC)

Indeed it is. I think it is almost a random noun insertion. bd2412 T 20:56, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Apparently it really is a UK term. It is in multiple other dictionaries. DCDuring TALK 21:36, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

I am an old timer, "Who shot John" only refers to two things: 1) hooch. It can be homemade or store-bought. 2) gossip.

In colloquial parlance every one above is correct. The closest defn is what ppl these days call pot, "shit." It's not offensive. "I'm gonna buy some shit," does not refer to anything but pot. Hooch is and always will be home-made alcohol, although some ppl say they're going out to buy some hooch, which is just whiskey.

US usage: Virginia

From the 1940’s in rural Virginia, I have heard and used he term, “who shot John,” all of my life, usually in the general form, “That’s just a bunch of who shot John,” or, “Don’t give me all that who shot John.” The term’s definition on the Etymology page, “A long and involved explanation; a thing of which an explanation would be long and involved,” does not fully comport with any usage I heard growing up, which usage would more aptly be defined as “An answer or explanation so filled with copious, rambling details that it never addresses the actual issue.” I do not recall its ever being used in reference to a “thing” or object, though that may be only regional. As to etymology, I strongly suspect that the roots of this usage are in the probably apocryphal, but perhaps actual query, “Who shot John?” the response to which begged the question. If the expression has Southern origins, it is unlikely to have any derivation from who shot John Wilkes Booth, because that question would have been phrased, “Who shot Booth,” and, frankly, most Southerners of that era could not have cared less. — This comment was unsigned.

• [Copied from WT:Feedback]. DCDuring TALK 23:45, 20 October 2010 (UTC)

I grew up in Washington DC in the 1960s with many older relatives in rural Virginia. The meaning above is also the only one I have ever known.

"A bunch of who shot John" is a long rambling story that doesn't seem to have a point. But one part of the definition is missing: it is used by a person as a stalling tactic to avoid answering a more important/difficult/embarrassing question at hand.

"Where have you been all night?" [long involved story with many extraneous details follows, not even attempting to answer the question.] "Don't give me a bunch of who shot John, just tell me where you were all night!!!" 71.232.27.147 04:51, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

The stalling sense seems to be adequately covered by our "long and involved explanation" definition, which has citations showing other (non-stalling) uses of this sense too. Equinox ◑ 04:54, 23 April 2021 (UTC)

Appalachian use of Who-Shot-John

When I was growing up in the Appalachian foothills of Southern Ohio, there were lots of bootlegging joints in the dry townships. At those venues I heard many men refer to rotgut whiskey as "Who-Shot-John", ergo: "Take a good horn o' this Who-Shot-John."

Patrick W. Crabtree, McDermott, Ohio

Hooch or "Who shot John" was my 99 year old neighbors expression for moonshine or Rock-n-Rye, both used for cold syrup. "Mark, I need some "who shot John". Gaither and Vertyl Bailey. Lotties Creek, Burnsville, NC. Sure miss those two.

Mark Norwood, Burnsville, NC

I used {{DARE needed}} to look this up and found the moonshine sense, of the others. DARE is a great source for US regional English. Libraries at higher educational institutions, cities, and affluent areas in the US tend to have it, though not always all volumes. DCDuring TALK 17:28, 29 July 2015 (UTC) DCDuring TALK 15:45, 21 October 2016 (UTC)

In Appalachia, a good man is and was one who didn't imbibe, although to 99.99% it just meant they smoked, sweated, something to cover the smell of alcohol from their better-halfs. But corn squeezins will kill you. Other names for it are "moonshine" and "white lightnin." Best to stick to the city stuff, lest you wanna find yourself wakin up in the woods or some part a town you've never seen at 3am or the residents call the cops for some man sleeping in mud. I am not joking.

You can't function correctly at all on the hard stuff. Robin Williams talked about it correctly. He said when he'd wake up, he'd ask himself, "Who shit in my pants?" It's been a while butt (pun intended) I remember.

DARE has only the "liquor, esp. illegal" sense, with their usual documentation. Their sources range from VA, sAppalachians to MO. DCDuring (talk) 15:46, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Current definition incorrect

Nothing I have come across online other than Wiktionary and sources that have clearly taken from Wiktionary word for word indicates that the definition of "who shot John" refers to a long, verbose explanation. From what I am seeing online, the proper definition for this phrase is "nonsense," or a second definition of "playing the blame game and fingerpointing." Sources are shown as follows: [1] and [2]. I have updated the definition with that in mind. 184.58.243.72 04:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

I think I agree with you. Several of the cites for the "long-winded explanation" fit much better with the "blame game" definition. I have moved those citation there.

I have so far found less evidence for the "nonsense" definition, but will keep looking. DCDuring (talk) 15:41, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

Sorry on my late reply DCDuring and I value your informed feedback. I think what you did was wisest and advisable, to sort of merge the definitions as they would seem to relate. Also, could you help me understand what qualifies as a reliable source here at Wiktionary so I can assist in finding these sources? I am a long time user of Wikipedia so I am well aware of what reliable sources are considered over there. While I have used Wiktionary on and off since about 2004, I have never been a regular user here. I haven't yet ever made an account here but I like using this dictionary for hard-to-decipher words from WIkipedia. Edit: Looks like it changed by IP address from the above. 2603:6000:A403:5800:91CD:96C9:5166:B5B1 10:15, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for noticing the problem with our definitions.

Our approach to entry validation differs significantly from WP's. We would probably be accused of OR there. In particular, it can be difficult to match citations with definitions where there are multiple and overlapping definitions,

See WT:ATTEST for our standards for evidence.

Register if you can. It helps to develop a reputation. DCDuring (talk) 10:59, 6 November 2021 (UTC)

Thanks so much likewise DCDuring. I appreciate those eye-opening notes about your policies and how they compare to Wikipedia. I will familiarize myself with your policies and read up on WT:ATTEST. I will message you at your page as soon as I create an account here just so you're aware. Thank you! 2603:6000:A403:5800:A043:FF2F:A90F:89BF 00:42, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

RFV discussion: November 2021

This entry has survived Wiktionary's verification process (permalink).

Please do not re-nominate for verification without comprehensive reasons for doing so.

---

who shot John

Rfv-sense: "Nonsense; rubbish." Recently added by an IP for reasons given on talk. It's in some other print and online slang dictionaries, and I can find some citations where people refer to "who-shot-John nonsense", but more input would be helpful in evaluating whether this is just calling a long, involved (stalling) story or blame game "nonsense", cf. the old talk page discussion of whether there's a stalling-specific sense or just the "long, involved explanation" sense which is sometimes used to stall and sometimes not.
IP also added another sense having to do with blame game, but it not only seems to exist, some of the existing citations seemed more like uses of it than of the sense they had been under, so DCDuring and I moved them.
- -sche (discuss) 15:18, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

cited Kiwima (talk) 22:33, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

RFV-passed Kiwima (talk) 20:55, 13 November 2021 (UTC)