User talk:Barmar/2009

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Felice anno nuovo! (time for an archive)

My bilingual dictionary says that passatoia means heavy-duty carpet for the stairs or a hall - but I can't find confirmation online. Any ideas? SemperBlotto 11:04, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Auguri di un 2009 felice anche a te! :-)

Passatoia: I've found carpet runner, stair carpet and also runner. With regards to passaverdura I don't know if it is also a Mouli grater; I've never seen a thing like that. The most similar tools that come to my mind are w:it:Schiacciapatate and spremiaglio, but they have different uses. --Barmar 13:27, 1 January 2009 (UTC)


Hi there. I can't quite figure out what sort of person this is. Does cozzalone mean the same thing? SemperBlotto 11:00, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

  • I've never heard cozzalone (dialectal?), but I have found this [1] discussion that lists as possible candidates: chav, naff boy, pikey, jerk and others. I'm sure you can find the right term or terms there. :-) --Barmar 13:58, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Thanks - chav fits the definition spot on.

And next . . . autodefinire / autodefinirsi - many hits, not in any dictionary (I shall look in that forum). SemperBlotto 14:46, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Hmmm autodefinirsi is define oneself (as) and maybe also self-define (as). I don't think autodefinire exists because you can only self-define yourself not someone else. An example? Bruce Springsteen defines himself as a story-teller. BS si autodefinisce un cantastorie. (We were editing antigovernative at the same time) --Barmar 15:00, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
    • OK - should I just add the reflexive form (the overwhelming majority of hits)? SemperBlotto 15:18, 3 January 2009 (UTC)
      • IMHO yes. --Barmar 15:20, 3 January 2009 (UTC)


See User:Robert Ullmann/Italiano SemperBlotto 15:58, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Wow, this is really a great source of missing terms!!! A question about it: the lists are full of obvious misspellings and typos. Can I delete them without commenting each of them? --Barmar 08:36, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I think that Robert would rather that you added a comment. There is a "stopper" file for persistant bad entries.
      The s/w (as of today) will not re-list words listed in the last 10 days. Many are from features that are updated weekly, or stories that simply stay on the section page for a few days. To make this work, it is important not to delete from the lists, just use strikethrough (as you've done at least once already ;-):
; <s>[[word]]</s> : ...
that way the word will still be seen as listed. The stops list can be used for things that just keep showing up over a longer period. Robert Ullmann 12:01, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
  • What about debbo - is this a form of devo? It's not in my grammar book - but gets very many hits. SemperBlotto 11:31, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
    • I've fixed debbo. Ok, I'll continue adding comments, then. --Barmar 11:37, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Note if you add comments or whatever after the : in the ; : syntax it looks better, given the : in the date in the signature string. You might as well just replace the citation with the comment? Or just strike it w/o bothering with the comment (;-).
I am adding Corriere della Sera. Robert Ullmann 16:15, 5 January 2009 (UTC)
Added (quite easily, only a few specific things needed) test run results, will be incorporated tomorrow. Seems quite good, thank you. Robert Ullmann 18:48, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Note again that if you add a comment before the : when striking, the : in your signature time messes up the format thus.

The number of new words is decreasing, it was flooded by adding Corriere; as we get to ten days past that, the daily number should be reasonable. Robert Ullmann 15:29, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


Not in any dictionary. Is it a panel of experts who discuss the day's football matches? SemperBlotto 11:49, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

No, it's an area of the stadium. See [2]. "Preferisco una moviola a bordocampo che cento moviole per tutta la settimana, e mille sospetti e insinuazioni" means that the journalist is in favour of 'moviola'=slow motion (but I don't know if you use this term in a sport context) performed during the match (in the stadium, in the bordocampo area) in order to dissipate any doubts about referees' decisions. I hope this makes sense in English (-: --Barmar 13:12, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
sideline "I'd like to see video replay on the sideline one hundred times a week, (and/instead of?) thousands of suspicions and insinuations." (and? not sure what the dependent clause is trying to add, is he suggesting there should be thousands of potential cases?) But in any case the word is sideline. Robert Ullmann 13:36, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Your translation is quite nonsense (like mine ;-) but it's basically a call for video cameras to be introduced during football matches. --Barmar 13:47, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I've found the word: it's instant replay w:Instant replay = moviola in campo or replay istantaneo when used by referees --Barmar 14:00, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
OK - I'll make it sideline or touchline. Note - w:it:Tutto il calcio minuto per minuto has "Massimo Barchiesi (conduttore di Zona Cesarini, bordocampista per anticipi e posticipi)" - presumably a person who reports from the sideline. SemperBlotto 14:28, 8 January 2009 (UTC)
I've never heard bordocampista, but I'm not a big footy fan (I definitely prefer cycle racing to it). Probably it's a neologism/protologism that however has about 500 Google results. More properly it is a person who reports from the stadium (actually from a well-heated VIP area, not from a cold sideline ;-). --Barmar 08:12, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


This seems to be both a form of carro armato and a type of rubber sole for shoes that grips the ground. So how is it being used in "La Liga arriva in finale con un passo da carrarmato"? A powerful shot (as from a tank), or one that hugs the ground? SemperBlotto 14:41, 8 January 2009 (UTC)

  • "Con un passo da carrarmato" means heavy on one's feet (I mean the antonym of light on one's feet) and in this case unstoppable, unbeatable, very strong so that is very likely the team will win the finale. --Barmar 08:21, 9 January 2009 (UTC)


This is just a guess. Please correct if needed. SemperBlotto 10:01, 11 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Buongiorno. I've added a meaning; the rest is fine. --Barmar 06:35, 12 January 2009 (UTC)


There seems to be a distinction between this and ecclesiastico - but I can't find an English equivalent. SemperBlotto 09:19, 12 January 2009 (UTC) (p.s. I have added a request for extremis#Latin)

RU lists[edit]

I've finally done as much as I can with the Italian words of 6th January! Should I do the English loan-words, or move on to the the next day's Italian? I am going through your list of combined forms slowly, doing sets having the same structure (for speed). I am also busy in the real world. My other hobby is genealogy (mostly of my own surname) and the English 1911 census has just come online so there are lots of people to find (it has my dad as a two-year-old baby (no picture!)). Cheers Jeff SemperBlotto 12:44, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

  • English loan-words: ok for me moving them (they're soooooooo many! Italians love so much English-sounding words that even invent them!). Ciaociao --Barmar 12:50, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
  • I'd think the Italian would be much more interesting; just pick another day (;-). Someone looking up the English will at least find a closely related definition. But I must ask: what is the genealogical source of the surname Blotto? (;-) Robert Ullmann 12:57, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
    • Blotto does not seem to be a surname (zero people with that name registered with the NHS in the UK). See, however, blotto. SemperBlotto 15:34, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
      • In Italian we would say brillo or sbronzo or more formally ubriaco (in Tuscan briaco), hence SempreBrillo would be a perfect translation for SemperBlotto 8:-) --Barmar 15:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)


mass murderer or serial killer? SemperBlotto 17:41, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

  • None of them. It is one who has killed more than one person. --Barmar 18:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)


Hi there. In the conjugation table, you have many forms duplicated. Did you mean something else? SemperBlotto 11:54, 19 January 2009 (UTC)

Ops! darn copy&pastes! :-O --Barmar 12:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)


Lots of hits for forms of this verb, but not in my dictionaries. I suppose it must mean the same as candidarsi? SemperBlotto 11:47, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

No, there's a slight difference. autocandidarsi means that the person presenting himself as a candidate took the decision on his own initiative (has nominated himself). candidarsi instead means that he has probably accepted 'di candidarsi' on request of his political party or someone else. I hope it is clear. Ah, this verb is reflexive-only. --Barmar 15:06, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
It looks like it translates reasonably well simply as "to apply (for a post)" - google gives lots of sentences like "Per autocandidarsi recarsi personalmente presso la sede unica del Centro per l'Impiego di Imola Via Boccaccio" or "Per autocandidarsi inviare Curriculum Vitae a (email address)." - and yes, it seems to be overwhelmingly reflexive. SemperBlotto 15:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
I didn't know that meaning of autocandidarsi and your translation looks fine for it. But it also means to present oneself as a candidate on one's own initiative (see ie google results like these "nel PD invece ogni sostenitore può anche autocandidarsi e, se gode della stima di altri sostenitori, essere eletto nei diversi etc etc" "Primarie sarde: Calvisi litiga coi vertici della Quercia. Soru si autocandida. " "Anche perché nessuno (Cofferati incluso) sarebbe stato disposto ad autocandidarsi alla guida di un’eventuale struttura del partito per il Settentrione. ". There's also a derived term: autocandidatura. Buona giornata. --Barmar 08:16, 21 January 2009 (UTC)


I think this is only used in the term a quattr'occhi - but is that an adjective or adverb? SemperBlotto 11:57, 26 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Adverb --Barmar 13:22, 26 January 2009 (UTC)


How would you define this? As the superlative of an adverb - or as a simple adverb derived from a superlative adjective? SemperBlotto 10:30, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

  • Oh my... it sounds awful! By the way IMHO is the superlative of an adverb. 'notte --Barmar 21:32, 27 January 2009 (UTC)


Thanks for the tip, however, I find it very fun and helpful to the community to do this for you, so you don't have to wait for the bot to do it for you ;). Cheers, Razorflame 15:48, 20 February 2009 (UTC)

bevace and bibace[edit]

Are these synonyms for bibulo? SemperBlotto 08:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

  • I have never heard none of them, but according to DeMauro they are synonyms. [3] [4] [5] --Barmar 10:53, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Ash Wednesday[edit]

I can't make up my mind if it is mercoledì delle Ceneri, mercoledì delle ceneri or Mercoledì delle Ceneri. SemperBlotto 22:42, 24 February 2009 (UTC)

Buongiorno. Uhm... well... good question. In Italian capitalizing is mostly a matter of opinion. According to wikipedia it is Mercoledì delle Ceneri, so I'd go with it, but probably also the others are correct (and there's Mercoledì delle ceneri as well ;-). --Barmar 07:10, 25 February 2009 (UTC)


Ciao. Ho chiesto a SemperBlotto se mi poteva benvenutare, ma egli mi disse che non capiva tanto bene l'italiano. Allora mi puoi benvenutare you? Grazie. --Ivocamp96 16:04, 28 February 2009 (UTC) Grazie. A proposito di Benvenutare: Certo che è un verbo. Sai come siamo fatti noi italiani (se tu lo fossi e/o lo sei), ci inventiamo di quelle cavolate che non stanno nè in cielo nè in terra xD --Ivocamp96 18:33, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

questo poi no. è una bella cosa. nessuno oltre di Francia e della nossa vecchia amica l'Unione Sovieticha tiene un'academia per la lingua. La lingua è cosa viva.
I'll take the chance to thank you, Barmar, and SemperBlotto for the Italian portion of Wiktionary. your translations have never failed me. --VKokielov 15:52, 19 September 2009 (UTC)


I'm not sure how to translate this. It seems to be something like a yob, or more likely a group of yobs (as it is feminine). SemperBlotto

  • I've found some definitions online: it is a group of boys 'maleducato, turbolento, chiassoso etc'. If 'yobs' fits this definition, a 'group of yobs' is fine. A question for you now. I'm searching for a decent translation of 'lustrarsi gli occhi' or 'lustrarsi la vista', an idiomatic verb. I'll try to explain. Literally it means 'to have one's eyes polished (?)'. It is when that there is something that makes your one's shine, typically a great football action or some beautiful girls for a man or jewels/designer clothes/shoes/etc for a woman. Any ideas? --Barmar 17:26, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
  • Such things "make one's eyes sparkle". SemperBlotto 19:52, 4 March 2009 (UTC)
    • Thanks.. so what lustrarsi gli occhi would be? To get one's eyes sparkled?? (I doesn't sound good). I.e. "Mi sono lustrata gli occhi a vedere tutti quei bei gioielli, diamanti, pietre preziose.." --Barmar 07:01, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
      • What about "My eyes sparkled to see (or "when I saw") all those beautiful jewels, diamonds, precious stones." SemperBlotto 08:29, 5 March 2009 (UTC)
        • I've tried with something different, please check lustrarsi gli occhi. Buona giornata (here rain, rain, rain, rain etc) --Barmar 15:48, 5 March 2009 (UTC)


According to De Mauro this is a collection of maxims (unless I'm translating it wrongly). But in the quote in User:Robert Ullmann/Italiano/27 February 2009 it seems to be something entirely different. ? SemperBlotto 11:58, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Yes, but it is something not too much different. According to w:it:Ufficio del Massimario a massimario is (also) a person who prepares collections of maxims (or maybe better collections of abstracts) of the sentences of the Italian Court of Cassation. Buona giornata. --Barmar 15:44, 10 March 2009 (UTC)


Recently requested. I can't figure it out. SemperBlotto 20:02, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Yep.. it's clearly a form of obiettivizzare and I've seen that there is also an obiettivizzazione, but its meaning is a mystery for me as well. Sorry. --Barmar 06:32, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

conditional tense => mood[edit]

I have had an email (from a native Italian) complaining that we describe the conditional as a tense rather than a mood. I think he is probably correct. I have changed the text of the definition of entries added by the bot (see sballottolerei as an example). I shall also change the layout of the conjugation tables if you agree. This is a bit fiddly and also causes a mini-outage of the wiki software (as the templates are used in so very many places). Let me know if you agree. Cheers. SemperBlotto 11:59, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

  • Buongiorno. As I said, I am not much into grammar.. BTW according to Wikipedia w:it:Verbo conditional is not the only mood we have. There are also: indicative, sujunctive, imperative, infinite, participle and gerund :-Oooo, see [6] here for an English version of it. So sballottolo would be: First-person singular indicative mood present tense of sballottolare. Oh my, it is a LOT of work fixing all templates and irregular verbs! --Barmar 06:24, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
    • OK. I'll change our conjugation templates (some time). Don't bother to change anything else - we have better things to do with our time! SemperBlotto 08:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
      • I've changed the template for -ciare (e.g. mangiare), using a different colour for the conditional. I also moved the stuff about compound tenses to a single sentence at the top (we are not a grammar textbook). If that looks OK to you, I'll do the others. SemperBlotto 15:41, 21 March 2009 (UTC)
        • IMHO it is OK. Buona domenica. --Barmar 08:09, 22 March 2009 (UTC)

I looked at all the other templates and found all sorts of irregularities in them. Then I had a thought - why don't I create a master template (say {{it-conj}}) that would have all the pretty formatting but no content. Then each of the other templates could call it, passing a list of parameters for the various verb forms. This would have two advantages . . . 1) They would all look the same, and we could more easily make global changes in formatting if needed 2) We could use templates for ALL verbs, not just the regular ones. For instance, if only the past participle is irregular we could code {{it-conj-ere|something|avere|pastpp=whatever}} . What do you think? It would take a bit of thought and research, and I would have to give it plenty of testing before I implemented it. SemperBlotto 11:15, 22 March 2009 (UTC)


Gender and plural combination seem to be unusual. Can you confirm please. SemperBlotto 07:45, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

No, it is invariable [7], I mean m and inv. Buona pasqua, carissimo :-) --Barmar 10:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)
That makes sense - but that final "ventola" confuses even Italians (see following Google hits).
"due turboventola" 182
"due turboventole" 179
"due turboventoli" 0

SemperBlotto 21:39, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

And what about adding turboventola/e feminine near to turboventola m/inv? Seemingly both of them are correct. --Barmar 07:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)


According to De Mauro, this is a grammatical concordance. But all the Google hits seem to be about footwear or the plastics industry? (I found it in w:it:Polietilene espanso) SemperBlotto 13:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)

Hi there. I've done some googling and lamination [8] seems to be an option for this meaning. --Barmar 06:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)


How do you form the feminine and plurals? (adjective & noun) - is it e.g. marxisti-leninisti?

Ditto plural for marxismo-leninismo SemperBlotto 16:15, 22 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Yes, marxisti-leninisti, marxiste-leniniste & marxismi-leninismi. --Barmar 06:32, 23 April 2009 (UTC)


Ciao. Siccome son diventato anch'io un whitelister (io lo chiamo così l'autopatroller), posso benvenutare gli utenti? --Ivocamp96 18:13, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

  • Ciao, francamente non lo so, dovresti chiedere ad un amministratore. --Barmar 06:10, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Italian papers[edit]

I ran it again, but it is picking up parts of words for no reason I can see. Will try to figure it out. (I hadn't changed anything!) French seems to have worked okay ... Robert Ullmann 12:55, 28 April 2009 (UTC)


Are you aware of Category:Tbot entries (Italian)? I try to check it about once a month. Also Category:Translations to be checked (Italian) has over a thousand entries - and most of them take some time to check multiple meanings - every so often I have a go, but the list just gets longer and longer! You might like to have a quick look some time, but don't let this stop you adding words from your medical dictionary. SemperBlotto 10:21, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

p.s. I suppose, for completeness, I should have mentioned Category:Translation requests (Italian) - just in case you have nothing else to do SemperBlotto 14:59, 16 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Hi there. Yes, I'm aware of all these things, but I always forget to check them! More seriously, I was thinking to start adding translations as a main activity some day. Regarding those Tbot entries, I'm not sure that chiudere a chiave = to lock (see [9] nor that pi greco = pi. The missing translation of sleep (see Transl requests) is cispa but it has not a figurative meaning, so I don't know how to add it. --Barmar 13:46, 17 May 2009 (UTC)


Is this just the same as "si tratta" - do I translate it as "it is"? SemperBlotto 15:53, 22 May 2009 (UTC)

  • Yes, but also it is about or it is a question/matter (of). --Barmar 16:16, 22 May 2009 (UTC)
    • I've made an attempt at a definition - you might be able to provide better example sentences. SemperBlotto 21:30, 22 May 2009 (UTC)


Is this a "clicking knife"? (My father was a clicker (second definition)) SemperBlotto 10:54, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Hey! But.. it's incredible! My father has been a clicker too! :-O Yes, clicking knife seems appropriate. --Barmar 13:17, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

dentari, dentarii[edit]

This can't be deleted until all the links to it are corrected. --EncycloPetey 16:14, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Hi there. I can't see any link to dentarii [[10]]. dentari it is correct and must not be deleted. --Barmar 16:18, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

responabile etc[edit]

responabile and responabilità seem very common. Are they just spelling errors? SemperBlotto 07:35, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Yes they're common misspellings. --Barmar 19:36, 19 June 2009 (UTC)

Prepositions forms[edit]

OK. Generate one manually in the style of your choosing, and I'll see what I can do. p.s. The latest ones that you added all lacked an ==Italian== header. p.p.s See the entries for senza intenzione etc. at Wiktionary:Requests for deletion. SemperBlotto 07:41, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

  • OK - See per conto di - if that one's OK, I'll do others. SemperBlotto 08:15, 22 June 2009 (UTC)
  • Italian contractions: Feel free to correct any that are wrong, or need improving.

-fare verbs[edit]

Just so we don't get a repeat of my previous error. Could you have a look at User:SemperBlotto/sandboxit. They are taken from De Mauro, and some of them are obsolete or rare. SemperBlotto 08:12, 28 June 2009 (UTC)

  • Wait a while - I can see that some are in the wrong group. . . . . SemperBlotto 08:14, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Ok tomorrow probably, let me know when you've finished. Buona domenica. --Barmar 08:17, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
  • OK - now fixed. Also, I have created {{it-conj-fare}} so that we don't have to create big tables manually. See artefare as an example. SemperBlotto 10:55, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Should I add -fo as another alternative for the 1st person singular present tense? SemperBlotto 11:05, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
    • Third person singular present -fa or -fà (or is it sometimes one and sometimes the other?) SemperBlotto 11:43, 28 June 2009 (UTC)
      • Hummmh.. well.. I've done some googling and here's what I have found. -fo is only used for disfare, soddisfare e liquefare (more irregular than the others), see [11]. third-person-singular present: of fare is fa not fà; of compound verbs is -fà see [12]; for soddisfare, disfare and liquefare instead because both -fa and -fà are correct. Now I'm going to check your list. --Barmar 07:35, 29 June 2009 (UTC)



could you perhaps tell me what ancora vita is supposed to mean? It's literal translation doesn't really make much sense to me. Thanks :) User:Mallerd (Zeg et es meisje) 10:00, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Hi, ancora in vita means still alive but ancora vita alone is completely unintelligible. Could you please give me the entire phrase? --Barmar 10:09, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Okay, it's from a song here are the lyrics: link. User:Mallerd (Zeg et es meisje) 10:15, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Ah, it makes sense now! :-)

I'll try to translate it, then (although not literally):
l'alba già <-it's dawn already
milioni che si svegliano <-millions of people wake up
ancora qui <- here again
vola via
un canto in mezzo agli alberi <- a singing/song (of birds, probably) between the trees is flying away immagini <- images
e ancora vita è <- and life still goes on
--Barmar 14:01, 6 July 2009 (UTC)

Thanks a lot Barbara :) have a nice day User:Mallerd (Zeg et es meisje) 14:08, 6 July 2009 (UTC)


Is the plural correct. There are plenty of Googles for rocche. SemperBlotto 10:38, 12 July 2009 (UTC)

  • No, it was wrong. I've fixed it. --Barmar 05:19, 13 July 2009 (UTC)

Compound forms of reflexive verbs.[edit]

Aagh! I think that I have been adding these wrongly. See capacitarmene as an example. It is defined as compound of capacitare and mene - shouldn't it be capacitarmi and ne? (I noticed that tene was red-linked then noticed that things like mene didn't have Italian definitions, or were just nouns etc. SemperBlotto 09:03, 22 July 2009 (UTC)

  • Uhmmmm well.. I'm sure that mene tene sene melo telo celo etc. do not exist as pronouns (glielo, glieli.. gliene are the only exception). Regarding capacitarmene, you're probably right = capacitarmi + ne. But saying that is = to capacitarsi + me + ne is basically the same, not? Anyway it's official: I do hate Italian compound forms! :-). --Barmar 12:33, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
  • So - should I change them e.g. from "-are + mene" to "-arsi + me + ne" or to "-armi + ne" (I wouldn't want to do it all yet again!). (I'm going to generate a list of verbs affected) SemperBlotto 12:44, 22 July 2009 (UTC)
    • -are is wrong, because they are reflexive verbs. IMHO both the others are correct but -armi + ne = 2 clicks before reaching the main verb capacitarsi (capacitarmene -> capacitarmi ->capacitarsi), so I would choose capacitarsi + me + ne. --Barmar 13:06, 22 July 2009 (UTC)


Could you look at this please. User:Renato.wikilex doesn't like it. SemperBlotto 14:41, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

  • The noun also refers to people not only to animals. In this case it is considered derogatory or jocular according to De Mauro, more derogatory than jocular in my experience. Ciao from terribly hot Italy. --Barmar 21:40, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

rfd needing attention[edit]

  • Here. In French, you can say "with assurance" instead of "assuredly" because the latter sounds awkward (assurément, does exist, mind you). Mglovesfun (talk) 12:39, 30 July 2009 (UTC)
    • I have answered in the other thread. Thank you. --Barmar 21:07, 30 July 2009 (UTC)


Could you have a quick look at insalata tricolore and insalata caprese please (and make any corrections). SemperBlotto 06:58, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

  • Buondì. IMHO insalata tricolore should be deleted because there is not a typical insalata like this. Tricolore could mean everything that is green, white, red (like our flag): arugula/green beans/lettuce/whatever + mozzarella/pasta/another white cheese of your choice + tomato/tomato sauce/radish and so on. We also have an 'insalata di pasta tricolore': pesto + mix of cheeses + tomato sauce (yummy). Ah, I've added an image to insalata caprese :-) --Barmar 07:13, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

Conjugation table template rewrite - early tests[edit]

Hi there. I have been thinking of doing this for a long time - and have started work on it this week.

I have created a new template that does all the fancy formatting. I have cleaned it up and removed the mentions of compound tenses, as I think that is part of Italian grammar. Following criticism from several people, I have removed the conditional from the indicative group and given it its own colour.

The idea is that new versions of the existing templates decide what words are to be included, and call the new template just to format them.

Existing verb entries (for regular verbs) will remain unchanged. Tables for irregular verbs may (at our leisure) be converted to use the new templates. I have only created a substitute for the -ere template so far and have tested it with all the complications that I can think of. The templates have got temporary names just for testing - you can see some output at User:SemperBlotto/conj testing. Feel free to add other examples and try to break the templates if you have the time. Cheers. SemperBlotto 10:42, 12 August 2009 (UTC)

  • WOW g.r.e.a.t! We really needed this! :-):-) Conjugation tables of irregular verbs were an absolute mess. It looks fine although I have not checked all those verb forms individually. There are only 3 small things needing to be fixed, that I have written down in green. Ciao --Barmar 12:33, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
  • OK - I've fixed the missing comma bug (so difficult to see in all those nasty brackets and stuff) and rewritten the input for vedere. I have also made a start on using the same template for reflexive verbs (at the bottom of the test page). Does it look OK to you? i.e. only the -si forms of infinitive, gerund and participles are listed; the main entries are wikilinked without the pronoun (the blank space is where I couldn't be bothered to do lots of typing for the moment). SemperBlotto 12:54, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
    • It is ok as long as past participle entries include both verbs, reflexive and not, I mean like preoccupato. --Barmar 13:03, 12 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Yes - that's done. And I've included the reflexive pronouns in the column headings (less programming!). SemperBlotto 13:32, 12 August 2009 (UTC) p.s. Wikilinking all the terms is especially useful for the reflexive-only verbs.
        • Buongiorno. Mhhhhhhhhh... I don't like it, IMHO the previous version with the reflexive pronouns near verb forms was more clear. Is it really so much more complicated? --Barmar 05:49, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
          • Hi there again. OK - I have put the pronouns back with the verb forms (it was just laziness really!). I have implemented the new -ere template, and will do -ersi later this morning. SemperBlotto 07:27, 13 August 2009 (UTC)
  • OK - I have implemented the new system in all the conjugation templates now. At the last moment, I realised that a small modification would allow it to be used with verbs like andarsene and farcela. I have done the first one, and may heve done the second by the time you read this. All I have to do now is update the documentation (the part that programmers hate the most). (Then we can slowly replace the big tables in many irregular verbs) SemperBlotto 11:15, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Very good! :-) Let me know when you've finished. --Barmar 12:09, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I have added talk pages to each template, with a link to the talk page of the common template (that has details of how to code for irregular verbs). Could you see if the documentation is good enough to, for instance, code the table for dipendere? Let me know if you have any trouble. SemperBlotto 16:09, 14 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Buongiorno e buon Ferragosto!, although today is not a public holiday in England. I've done a minor edit on that talk page and added the new conj table to dipendere and this has been quite easy. I've also expanded dipendere and decidere and I'm afraid that this must be done sooner or later for many important verbs and terms in general. --Barmar 07:20, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Well done (hope the roads to the beach weren't too busy). I have reverted your changes to the template talk page - to reflect the actual names of the parameters used (e.g. sub123s). SemperBlotto 21:33, 15 August 2009 (UTC)
      • Ops! sorry, I hadn't understood then.. well, I'll study it again. --Barmar 06:01, 16 August 2009 (UTC)

capo- words[edit]

Hi there. Could you confirm that all these have plurals of the form "capi..." - even feminine ones? capobranco plural looks wrong (though there are some Google hits). (There is a list in my sandbox - I haven't checked all the blue links yet. (and does the terminal vowel change or stay the same?) SemperBlotto 16:08, 27 August 2009 (UTC)

  • P.s. I have just remembered that I asked the same question last year (memory is the first thing to go at my age). SemperBlotto 16:55, 27 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Buongiorno. No, I'm sorry, I cannot confirm this rule. It absolutely depends on the words. Some of them have a double plural capo-/capi-, others only capi-, others only capo-, the terminal vowel may change or not, while the feminine form is generally invariable. So for me the best thing is to always check in a dictionary (like this [13]) before creating the entry. Ah, I cannot remember you've already asked this question, but I've always been quite forgetful regardless of my age ;) --Barmar 06:18, 28 August 2009 (UTC)


We had a vote to explicitly prevent this sort of this. Tags such as {{flower}} and {{colour}} should only be used in front of terms whose usage is limited to that specialist field. I would be very surprised if rosa were limited to use by botanists and horticulturalists. Please use Categories for this, not context tags. --EncycloPetey 03:48, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

Pronouns in our conjugation templates[edit]

Hi there. Hope you had a good holiday. See Talk:gemere. What do you think? It is quite easy to change now that we have a unified template. Should we just add egli to lui/lei and to essi/esse? SemperBlotto 11:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

A Roman contributor[edit]

Could you have a look at Special:Contributions/ please - is there anything that can be made into proper entries? SemperBlotto 13:23, 28 September 2009 (UTC)


Is this reflexive only? There are quite a few Google hits for autoriparare. I'm also seeing autoripara as a noun - looks like it means "auto (motor car) repair". SemperBlotto 22:00, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

  • Yes, it's reflexive only.. sorry I forgot to add it to your feed-the-bot list (still having holiday mood :-). The noun is probably autoriparazione (I've never heard autoripara as a noun) and yes it is chiefly related to cars, while autoripararsi is generally linked to an organism, ecosystem or to a part of human or animal body. --Barmar 05:56, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

ipereccitabilità‎ ecc.[edit]

Would the etymology be better as {{prefix|iper|eccitabilità‎|lang=it}}? SemperBlotto 21:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  • Good question. According to Treccani [14] you are right. Personally I'm not sure this is correct. I mean, comodità comes from comodo, facilità from facile etc etc.. why compound -ità words must derive from the suffix they include instead of the adjective they're linked to? Are them an exception to the general rule? :-/ --Barmar 05:22, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Is my modification a good compromise? SemperBlotto 08:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)
    • Yes, it could work, although I'm not sure it is 100% etymologically correct :) --Barmar 20:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

striscie [edit]

Apparently this is an error. Is it really an error? If so, we will delete it. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

De Mauro[edit]

Looks like it has gone away for good now. Can you recommend another on-line Italian dictionary? SemperBlotto 07:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

  •  :-( :-( :-( :-( no, sorry, but wait, I'll do a search now and I'll let you know. --Barmar 07:19, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
  • Try Garzanti - you have to register - then it is free (Zingarelli online is free for only 30 days). SemperBlotto 08:45, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
    • It seems to have good coverage but search results can be strange e.g. searching for "epi*" gives words beginning "epid" before all the rest! (my sandbox has the results of this search (sorted)) SemperBlotto 09:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)
  • De Mauro arrived this morning - thanks.
    • I can't figure out how to copy/paste the list of words e.g. after doing a search - it only lets you highlight one at a time.
    • It eats up CPU cycles - running near 100% most of the time, strange.
  • p.s. I opted for the complete install - so the CDROM may be removed.
  • p.p.s. I have been using dizi recently - it's a sort of wiki, but also has links to some classic texts and even a Latin/Italian dictionary. Cheers. SemperBlotto 10:58, 15 October 2009 (UTC)
        • It looks like that copy&paste doesn't work. You can search whatever you like but not to save it or better I haven't find any way to do that. --Barmar 20:52, 15 October 2009 (UTC)


Hi there. Could you check the conjugation - before I botify the verb forms. Cheers. SemperBlotto 15:27, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

  • Buongiorno. There are 2 wrong forms: 3plural subjuctive present = ristiano and 3p imperative = ristiano too. stare has some mistakes as well. 2s indicative present = stai 3p indicative present = stanno; 3p subjunctive present = stiano 3p imperative = stiano. Another thing, I could no longer find the link but I've read once that potentato in its modern meaning is just a false friend of potentate. I don't know if this is true, BTW here's some examples of use of it. It's up to you to decide whether potentate is an appropriate translation in these cases. 1) Se alla base di un potentato economico, divenuto potentato politico, si rileva la corruzione, il reato va sanzionato o no? 2) Dicono "servi" agli altri e non si rendono conto di essere loro inconsapevoli servi di un potentato mafioso ed economico delle dimensioni talmente enormi da non riuscire nemmeno ad immaginarlo 3) E ancor più eclatante e sorprendente è il fatto che una cosa simile non sia nata da qualche potentato finanziario, politico o culturale o da importanti istituzioni 4) Oggi, si tratta dell'azione, la cui rilevanza penale è da accertare, di potentati politico-economico-finanziari impegnati a ridisegnare il volto del capitalismo italiano e, per conseguenza, equilibri e rapporti fra economia e politica. --Barmar 07:08, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
    • OK - thanks - I've corrected the two conjugation tables. I've added the sense of power, meaning a powerful state or government, to potentato. SemperBlotto 07:19, 19 October 2009 (UTC)
      • Ahem.. maybe power is still the right word, but read well the examples above. It is not a powerful state or government but a powerful group of people that are important in their field (economy, culture, mafia and so on). --Barmar 07:23, 19 October 2009 (UTC)


Hi, there. Would you add Italian pronunciation to Cinzano, please? It's /tʃintsano/, right? --Vahagn Petrosyan 15:29, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

  • Hi, sorry but I can't help you. Pronunciation is a complete mystery to me, I really don't know how to write it. :-( --Barmar 15:36, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
But can you tell me if it is pronounced with Z as in "pizza" or with Z as in "zombie", i.e. like Chintsano or Chinzano? --Vahagn Petrosyan 15:39, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
z as in zombie (at least that's how I drink it - though, of course, Barbara prefers Martini). SemperBlotto 18:53, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
That's how you drink it in England. I'm interested in native Italian pronunciation of Cinzano. --Vahagn Petrosyan 20:42, 20 October 2009 (UTC)
Ah, ok. It's easier this way. We pronounce Cinzano's z like those zz in pizza. After all both include 'za', that is always pronounced the same (for SB: I prefer my home-made limoncello ;-) ). --Barmar 06:21, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Thanks, that's what I suspected. --Vahagn Petrosyan 10:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
  • I shall amend my lazy pronunciation. SemperBlotto 07:20, 21 October 2009 (UTC)
Don't, Chin-zah-no sounds much better. --Vahagn Petrosyan 10:08, 21 October 2009 (UTC)



I've just begun studying Italian and I have a question:

in my book it says you should use "di" for 'argomento' as in silvia mi ha parlato del duo viaggio but the book says also that you should use "su" for 'argomento' as in ieri ho visto un film su Malcolm X

what is the difference? Surely they aren't interchangeable? Grazie User:Mallerd (Zeg et es meisje) 12:34, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

  • Hi. No, they're not interchangeable. Actually I'm not vrey much into Italian grammar (I just speak it :-), so you'd better ask to your teacher, but we usually say 'parlare di' (raccontare di, dire di, riferire di, etc) + argomento and not 'parlare su' + argomento. Silvia mi ha parlato del suo viaggio. Paolo parla spesso del suo cane. Luca parlava sempre di politica.. and so on. We usually use 'su' after a noun (but not always! you can also use 'di'.. it's difficult, I know). ho visto un film su Malcom X; Francesco ha scritto un libro su suo padre; Anna ha tenuto una conferenza sul cambiamento climatico. Here's an example of 'di' after a noun: Carlo ha scritto un libro di giardinaggio. I hope this helps. Ciao --Barmar 14:25, 23 October 2009 (UTC)

I thank you very much! My teacher keeps saying the Italian grammer is much easier than the Dutch grammer :P I disagree, ciao! User:Mallerd (Zeg et es meisje) 12:38, 24 October 2009 (UTC)

life class[edit]

I'm having trouble finding an Italian translation for this. SemperBlotto 11:54, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Mmmmmmmmmh... I don't think we have a two-or-tree-word term for that. If it comes to my mind I'll let you know. --Barmar 17:27, 8 November 2009 (UTC)

aderizzare aderizzazione[edit]

According to the Corriere della Sera dictionary site - these words mean "to stab" and "stabbing". But to me, they seem to mean "to adhere" and "adhesion". Thoughts? SemperBlotto

  • Well, I've done a little of search. To stab looks correct in an automotive context where aderizzare means praticare dei tagli = more or less to stab sulla superficie di un pneumatico per migliorarne l'aderenza. I've also found this term in a chemistry context.

In this case it is translated as to bond: Cilbond 48 is a fast drying one-coat bonding system capable of bonding both hot and cold cast polyurethane systems to a variety of substrates including metals, polyamides and other engineering thermoplastics. Cilbond 48 è un sistema di aderizzazione ad una mano a rapida asciugatura in grado di aderizzare sistemi poliuretanici a formatura sia a caldo che a freddo, su una grande varietà di supporti tra cui metalli, poliammidi e altri tecnopolimeri termoplastici. In this case aderizzare/aderizzazione it is translated into to dip dipping I don't know if also to adhere would be appropriate. --Barmar 07:09, 16 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Hmm - this seams to involve a meaning of stab that we haven't got. Does it mean "making a series of holes or slashes in a surface with a pointed object, so as to improve grip"? I've come across that in the building trade - where you treat a brick surface like that before adding plaster etc. SemperBlotto 08:37, 16 November 2009 (UTC)
    • After some more searching (using keys like stab tyre/tyres grip) and I'm not sure stab/stabbing is the right word in the automotive context. What about using in the aderizzare translation something like 'to produce/cut grooves in a tyre tread pattern in order to improve its grip'? Some help w:Tread --Barmar 07:31, 17 November 2009 (UTC)

palma da olio[edit]

I noticed that you added the plural form of palma da olio as palme da olio. Why isn't the plural palme da oli? Razorflame 19:01, 15 November 2009 (UTC)


Are you sure "insano" means "insane"? "sano" means "healthy" whereas "sane" means "sano di mente" so I would have thought "insano" would mean "unhealthy" not "insane".Gregcaletta 03:44, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

simil legno[edit]

I don't think this is a prefix because it's two words. Isn't it just simil + legno? Otherwise for simil-, may I suggest pseudo-? Mglovesfun (talk) 14:06, 30 November 2009 (UTC)

  • Fixed, thanks. No, pseudo- is different, we have it too. I've added It entry to the En one. --Barmar 14:21, 30 November 2009 (UTC)


Hi there. Should we add something to this suffix entry for words like badilata? I know there are quite of few of them - but don't know how to find them amongst all the very many words ending in -ata. SemperBlotto 12:41, 7 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Ciao. I'm not sure I've understood your question. BTW summing up DeMauro definition -ata means: a) blow (using something ie manata is a blow with a hand, borsata with a bag/handbag and so on) and also shot (by weapons) b) = -ful (as much as can be held by what is denoted by the noun) c) action from verbs (ie chiaccherata ->chiaccherare, mangiata->mangiare, nevicata->nevicare) or from nouns (cretinata -> cretino stupidata->stupido) d) period of time from nouns (anno-> annata giorno->giornata mattino->mattinata). I can add etymology to these words, it is quite easy to me understand their etymology, pls let me know. --Barmar 13:18, 7 December 2009 (UTC)
  • OK. I've created the category, expanded the definition of -ata, and I've added etymology sections to the examples that you gave. I'll add more as I come across them, or as I think of them. Cheers. SemperBlotto 17:51, 7 December 2009 (UTC) p.s. Several hits for bananata but it seems to be a surname - I'll try not to invent silly words.
    • Ahem, bananata is definitely NOT a valid word. --Barmar 17:00, 8 December 2009 (UTC)


If you can give us your opinion we can close the discussion. Thanks! --Diuturno 16:47, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

  • Done, pitilessly :) --Barmar 07:41, 19 December 2009 (UTC)

munuscola and other strange words[edit]

Hi there. Have a look at the bottom of my talk page and feel free to comment. SemperBlotto 08:44, 19 December 2009 (UTC)