Talk:sun

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got this off wikipedia, not sure if its correct: "

  • The sun is a Japanese length unit, around 3,03 cm."--Commander Keane 09:12, 8 September 2005 (UTC)
  • That’s correct, There are ten bu to a Japanese sun ( = 3.03 cm), ten sun to a shaku ( = 30.3 cm, 12"), six shaku to a ken ( = 6'), 60 ken to a chō ( = 119 yards), and 36 chō to a ri ( = 2.44 miles). —Stephen 09:59, 8 September 2005 (UTC)

Gender[edit]

Though perhaps too easy, here at least the gender must be mentioned.

Sunrise or sunset[edit]

"Man may work from sun to sun" [1] among scads of similar sources. Collect (talk) 00:39, 7 August 2012 (UTC)

English-Arabic Translation[edit]

I thought it should be noted that in the list of translations from the English for "the star around which the Earth revolves," it gives شمس as an Arabic Translation and again شمس as an Egyptian Arabic translation, in different fonts. While as far as I know these translations are not incorrect (I can read Arabic but cannot yet speak it beyond a very basic vocabulary), should not the Egyptian Arabic translation be removed if it is the same as MSA (Modern Standard Arabic)?
Qanada Ever (talk) 22:59, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

No, it's fine to leave it. The romanisation may differ even if the word itself does not. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:00, 14 August 2013 (UTC)

RFV discussion: July–October 2012[edit]

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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for verification (permalink).

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.


Rfv-sense: Sunrise or sunset. Although they cite a dictionary for this, I'm skeptical. I can see how a phrase like "get up before the sun" could be interpreted that way, but I don't buy it (unless there's a similar sense at chicken to cover "get up before the chickens"). Chuck Entz (talk) 05:45, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't buy it either. I would prefer to delete the sense. (Isn't "get up before the sun" just a sort of synecdoche?). Dbfirs 19:31, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Adage: "Man may work from sun to sun/ But woman's work is never done." Valid usage. Collect (talk) 00:34, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Even supposing this is really a valid cite, we need three- in durably-archived sources. I have my doubts about this one: it looks more like something compressed to fit the format of this particular couplet, not something of general use in actual speech or writing. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:10, 7 August 2012 (UTC)
Here they are: [2] Book title, [3] book of poetry title, [4] another book, [5] adage noted in book on culture, [6] usage for a record album, [7] usage in New York Times, [8] ditto, [9] ditto (any need to show the scores of NYT usages of the phrase? ). In short - well-known and exceedingly obvious usage of the term, so will someone consider the verification done? Cheers. Collect (talk) 01:31, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, you've certain cited the phrase from sun to sun, which probably deserves an entry, although quite a few of your cites are mentions, not uses. Anything that isn't that exact phrase, or a direct play on it? Chuck Entz (talk) 11:02, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Let's see -- hundreds of uses for the term. Yet insufficient? Yet "squaroid" survives with zero usages or nearly so? Um -- ok here goes ... Collins: 7. poetic a year or a day, Merriam-Webster: 4. the rising or setting of the sun <from sun to sun> , etc. for all the major published dictionaries. Is a dozen dictionaries sufficient (including the OED etc.)? Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:13, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
We don't need hundreds of uses, and we don't need any dictionaries at all; we just need three durably archived uses. The problem is, you've only presented uses of from sun to sun, which raises the possibility that this sense doesn't exist outside of that phrase. (Like how the existence of hot potato does not demonstrate a distinct sense of potato.) —RuakhTALK 13:21, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Try the OED for other uses. It gives cites for each meaning, but is copyrighted. I fail to see why the definition which is widely accepted in every other dictionary fails here, and why words which have zero usage get accepted here <g>. If this is how Wiktionary "works" then at least add "from sun to sun" in the "sun" definition list as a dead minimum, as it is exceedingly widely used. Tennyson And sun by sun the happy days, etc. Cheers. Collect (talk) 13:41, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
(after edit conflict) Oddly enough, no one has brought squaroid to rfv. You're welcome to do so. We add the template {{rfv}} for whole entries that need to be verified or deleted and {{rfv-sense}} if it's just a part of the entry. If you think there's something inherently wrong with it so that it should be deleted whether it's used or not (for instance, it's the sum of parts already covered by definitions of the parts), add {{rfd}}, or {{delete}} for cases where it's so obviously in violation of CFI that an admin is likely to agree that it should be deleted without going through any process. If the item in question isn't an entry, but something like an appendix, or template, or category, then use {{rfdo}}. For all of these, the box that's generated has a "+" link that you can click to start a new section in the appropriate page, and you can explain the reason you nominated it. Of course, you will need people to agree with you and vote to delete for the deletion pages, so I would recommend that you try to be a bit more diplomatic- and, in case you're wondering, smug, condescending pseudo-cheerfulness is not being diplomatic. Remember, this is a community, and things only happen through consensus. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:12, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
Interestingly, this b.g.c. hit for "from sun till sun" seems to take to "sun" mean only "sunset", not "sunrise". —RuakhTALK 13:24, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
There are a few phrase that seem to use sun in the senses under discussion. "From sun until/to sun", "between/twixt/betwixt sun and sun". I've tried to find more at have sought the meaning of sun as the object of prepositions like "to/until/at/before/after" in likely collocations with "open|close|right|back|just", unsuccessfully.
Should we consider the small number of phrases as set and make entries for each? Or follow the lemmings? As this has become more an RfD than and RfV, I vote for following the lemmings and keeping this sense. DCDuring TALK 16:11, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

"At first sun" is found in [10], [11], [12] etc. pretty much ad infinitum - thus not just "sun to sun" at all, alas. How many similar cites are needed for allowing the meaning as stated in the first place? Cheers. Collect (talk) 17:45, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I read that as more like "first sunlight/light". It is hard to make sense of the use of "first" otherwise. *"At first dawn/sunrise/sunset"? DCDuring TALK 19:42, 8 August 2012 (UTC)
As opposed to "at the start of the day" which is far more in line with the definition being questioned? On what basis? We do not even proffer a definition of "sun" as "sunlight" in any sources, AFAICT. And the meaning at issue precisely fits the quote. Collect (talk) 00:24, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Every day, I kill myself trying to find citations that unambiguously demonstrate particular meanings-in-use of words. Do you think that this sense should be exempt from the need for lack of ambiguity? It is very easy to get over-committed to a particular term or definition. It is not always easy to find empirical support for one's beliefs.
It is a common requirement of a definition that it be substitutable in place of the term being defined. If sun meant "dawn" in the phrase at first sun, then at first dawn should make sense. But what is dawn the first of? If I substitute "light", then at first light makes sense to me as it would mean the "first light of day". Both at first light, at first daylight. and at first light of day can be found, the first very abundantly, at Google Books.
To my surprise, at first dawn can be found, with reasonable abundance.
Thus, we have laboriously demonstrated that the lexicographers at the other leading dictionaries do not have more relaxed attestation standards than we do, that this sense of sun exists outside of set phrases, and that we should keep it once we have actually put the least ambiguous citations in the entry. Good persistence, Collect. DCDuring TALK 01:05, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
I have added five citations, using four different phrases, three using ""sun in both of the senses. DCDuring TALK 02:55, 9 August 2012 (UTC)
Passed. - -sche (discuss) 09:48, 13 October 2012 (UTC)