User talk:Atelaes/2010, 2011

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Archived discussions for 2006, 2007, 2008a, 2008b, and 2009.

You're alive![edit]

Spring break? Mine is next week, and I hope to have a hard copy of the Vulgate by then. (Wikisource has it, but their version is error-ridden.) --EncycloPetey 01:56, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Well, this is a bit embarrassing, but I'm not actually in school at the moment. I took some time off to rebuild my sanity and finances. I just have a week off work. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Not embarrassing at all. Still glad to have you around. --EncycloPetey 04:15, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

Are you still planning on importing LSJ to Wiktionary? --Vahagn Petrosyan 11:09, 31 March 2010 (UTC)

I am, which is ultimately what is responsible for my continued absence. My programming skills were basically nil when I started, and I'm realizing that such an undertaking requires more than beginner skills in more than one language. So, I am immersing myself in a number of tasks and educational pursuits in order to get myself up to snuff. While I wish I could give an estimate as to when we might see results, in good conscience I cannot. However, I have decided that coding entries by hand, one at a time, when they are already readily accessible in digital format of some kind, is a very poor use of my time. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:50, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Certainly understandable. I didn't start powering through Latin verbs at all until I had the help of a bot. It seemed like wasted time otherwise. If you still have the time and desire to work on entries, then why not look for those sorts of entries not in LSJ, and which therefore could not ever be created by importing the LSJ contents? I'm thinking of items like -ικός (-ikós), since LSJ do not include entries for formative suffixes, but these suffixes have cognates and descendants in other languages (like Latin -icus). Working on those sorts of entries would give Wiktionary a supplementary content that even owners of LSJ would find useful. --EncycloPetey 15:48, 3 April 2010 (UTC)


Could you help? Century 1911 contains, in one of its etymologies, the Ancient Greek term "ἐγκέφαλος" in the sense "brain". But I cannot find the term in Liddell and Scott. Is it a real Ancient Greek term? --Dan Polansky 15:18, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

Ok, ἐγκέφαλος (enképhalos) is all set. The reason you couldn't find it is because is jammed into the preceding entry (see [1]). -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:45, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Thank you; that did not occur to me. I have now found "ἐγκέφαλος" in[2]. It seems that Greek (el) Wikisource also hosts Ancient Greek texts, and can be used as an Ancient Greek corpus. --Dan Polansky 22:37, 9 April 2010 (UTC)

ἕν οἶδα ὅτι οὐδὲν οἶδα[edit]

Since it'll soon be gone, what do you say to adding that sentence as a citation to the entries of its various component words?  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 15:52, 15 April 2010 (UTC)

Sorry I never responded to this. Truth be told, I really don't have any interest in manual editing right now. But, I hope you'll appreciated why if my current project comes to fruition. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:54, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
That's no problem; I just thought it was worth mentioning, given our greater-than-usual lack of supporting quotations for Ancient Greek terms. What is this current project of yours, may I ask?  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 22:52, 4 May 2010 (UTC)


Hi, I found the word φυσιογνωμονία while researching the etymology of physiognomonie. Could you please add a transliteration and check if it needs any macrons or symbols on it --Rising Sun talk? contributions 09:47, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Done. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:52, 28 April 2010 (UTC)


Unfortunately, I only noticed the discussion you had with EncycloPetey after I had created the entry. Do you have any further thoughts on this? The citation I provided should attest it, and there was another one as well if the current one isn't any good; however, I'm not sure whether it has a figurative sense in the quote. Caladon 13:25, 28 April 2010 (UTC)

Huh, it took me awhile to find the convo (my memory's going with old age). Truth be told, I don't really do Latin. I mean, it's sexy and all, but Ancient Greek keeps me well enough occupied on its own. I suggest you run it by EP (perhaps with a link to the convo, he's even older than me). I wonder if you might get an earful. Sorry. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 13:41, 28 April 2010 (UTC)
Nevertheless, thank you for your response. I'll just leave it for now, since I don't want to draw his attention to anything more for a while, after my last series of questions. Caladon 14:46, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


I couldn't resist from trying to help you with /pronunciationCustomization.js. We have a helper function for all the DOm creation boilerplate:

  temp = document.createElement('input');
  temp.setAttribute('type', 'radio');
  temp.setAttribute('name', 'pronunciation');
  temp.setAttribute('value', 'IPA');
  temp.setAttribute('onClick', 'setCookie("PronunciationPrefs", "IPA"');


  var temp = newNode('input', {
             type: 'radio', 
             name: 'pronunciation', 
             value: 'IPA', 
             onclick: 'setCookie("PronunciationPrefs", "IPA");'

Which I hope you agree is a little easier on the fingers and the eyes. Conrad.Irwin 20:48, 1 May 2010 (UTC)

(You can also create nodes with nodes or text inside them - it deals with escaping text - so for a link inside a bold):

var temp = newNode('b', newNode('a', {href: '/wiki/IPA'}, "IPA");
Now he tells me. Well, I don't have the ambition to rewrite it just yet. If the experiment works and there's community support for widespread use on the project, then I'll certainly rewrite it in the cleaner fashion. I do appreciate the advice, though. I'm new at this and can use all I can get. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:53, 1 May 2010 (UTC)
You're under no obligation to (indeed I should have done that to navframes already and then you'd have known for the last project :p). Hope the prototype goes well. Conrad.Irwin 20:58, 1 May 2010 (UTC)


Hi Atelaes. I know you said above that you don't have much time for manual editing right now, but could you add entries for τρίπους (trípous) and its nominative plural form please? I'm sure you can guess the reason for the request…  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 22:54, 4 May 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, actually this'll give me a chance to dust off my code and try out a few things. I'll get on it. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:12, 4 May 2010 (UTC)
Danke schön. So, is the nom. pl. τρίποδες (trípodes) or something else?  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 00:13, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
That's the masculine/feminine nominative plural, yes. Not sure about the neuter. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:16, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
OK. Well, since the nominal derivation is from the masculine substantive, does that mean that this assertion is correct?  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 01:41, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I think it is. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:46, 5 May 2010 (UTC)
Great! Thanks for all your help. :-)  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 01:51, 5 May 2010 (UTC)


Lochos is used as "file" in ancient military texts. Aelian uses it (5th ch) and Asclepiodotus too (2nd ch.). GK1973 10:21, 6 May 2010 (UTC)

Hi! I posted the relevant texts in my talk page. Take a look and then see if you can put back my edit. Cheers! GK1973 23:46, 9 May 2010 (UTC)


Could you help? I have just created ναρκόω "to benumb", which is found in LSJ and some other dictionaries, but seems not attestable using Google search. There is also the form ναρκῶ, which is actually attestable in Google search, but not found in LSJ. What do you think should be done with the two entries? --Dan Polansky 07:23, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

ναρκόω is the correct location for the entry to be at. ναρκῶ is a contracted form, which should eventually be an inflection of entry. There's a great deal of very real Ancient Greek words which Google does not find. I'm not really quite sure why, but I've learned to not let it bother me, and I suggest you do the same. I think everything is peachy as it currently stands. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 07:29, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Thank you. Is it then correct that ναρκοῦν is a present active infinitive of ναρκόω? The form ναρκοῦν is found in Century 1911, but not really in Google. --Dan Polansky 07:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Yep. Looking at the LSJ's entry, and they only have two quotes (one is present middle/passive, and the other a participle of some sort), which may well be the only surviving ones. So, it's not terribly surprising that you're not finding these forms; they may not be attested. That's sort of the trick with a dead language, especially one so ancient. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 08:04, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
So if I create ναρκοῦν, will it be deleted as unattested? Or will it be kept on the ground that the whole word including all inflected forms is attested? Sorry for so many questions. --Dan Polansky 08:28, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
No problem; I'm happy to answer them. ναρκοῦν should not be created, but ναρκόω should (well, it should be kept anyway), even if neither is attested. My thinking on this is not absolutely concrete, but I think that the lemma form should exist (regardless of whether it's attested), and all of its attested inflections, only its attested inflections. People might argue that ναρκόω should not exist if it's not attested....and I could definitely see their point. However we need a lemma entry, an anchor onto which to add all the pertinent info about the word as a whole (i.e. all the inflections, viewed collectively). We also need a predictable place to throw incoming links, like those coming from narcotic, and we need to have an entry there because that's where most people are going to look for it. It's, admittedly, kind of a kludge, but it's the only reasonable one I can come up with (and it's standard dictionary practice). -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 08:48, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
That sounds reasonable. What I wonder about is whether ναρκοῦν could be created at least as a redirect or as "unattested form of ...", or something of the sort, for the case that someone searches for "ναρκοῦν", as has happened to me. Some dictionaries are using "ναρκοῦν" as a lemma form. When I consult such a dictionary and then go to Wiktionary, I would like Wiktionary to get me to "ναρκόω". Maybe the presence of "ναρκοῦν" in an inflection table in "ναρκόω" would suffice for that. --Dan Polansky 09:42, 8 May 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm...that's a good point. My immediate thought is that a redirect would be most appropriate......except in cases where there's overlap in modern Greek, in which case an "unattested form of" would probably be best. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 10:49, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


  1. Would the concept behind {{quote-hide}} (or, better yet, the code) work for all the material under a heading (any or all levels)?
  2. In principle, could sections be hidden/open by default based on express registered user preferences or information garnered from IP address or user/device language default.

--Great work! DCDuring TALK 12:10, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

I'll start with #2, as it's simpler. The answer is yes. Basically any javascript code can be enabled/disabled/modified based on cookies (WT:PREFS) or login (Special:Preferences). Navbars (the JS behind translation bars and most others) already has a preference built in which allows users to have everything open by default. As for #1.... In principle, almost anything is possible, but not necessarily easy. I don't know what your understanding of javascript and html is, so I truly apologize if the following comes off as didactic. The basic idea behind all the hiding scripts we currently have is to find an html element, and set its "display" parameter to "none". As far as I can tell, nested headers on Wiktionary do not equal nested elements in the resulting html. So, it's not as if you tell the code to hide the html element of, say, a L3 header, and expect the header, its content, and any nested L4's and their content to go away. Only the header would disappear. Any of its content and nested headers would remain. Now, if you're a talented coder, you could probably teach the script what Wiktionary html looks like, and tell it to look for a bunch of different elements which are nested on Wiktionary, but aren't nested in the html, and hide them all. But, that would be tricky. However, I'm more than happy to try stuff out. So, if you give me a page and say, "I want this, this, and this to disappear, toggled by a button placed here, I'd be quite willing to give it an attempt. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:02, 8 May 2010 (UTC)


Don't try to block my IP, i will use an another...

Wasting time[edit]

I've seen you "having a conversation" (=if I were doing it, I would call it "wasting time") with "someone" about Serbo-Croatian. For what my opinions are worth - Norwegian Nynorsk and Bokmal are different enough to treat in separate sections (whether we do or not). The Scandinavian languages (sv, da, no (nb/nn)) are certainly different enough in spelling, grammar, and pronunciation to treat under separate sections. Trying to compare the Scandinavian languages to "Serbian", "Croatian", "Bosnian" and "Montenegrin" (because every Montenegrin I have spoken to calls the "language" they speak Montenegrin) is completely and utterly fucking moronic. That's all the pot-stirring I'm going to do...for the moment. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 03:50, 13 May 2010 (UTC) ideas are fucking moronic and my conversations are a waste of time. In the past I would have taken that as good-natured snarkiness. However, the Opiaterein I've seen over the past few months precludes such a thing. I may disagree with a lot of what Robert's saying, but at least he's enough of a grownup to be civil about it. How about you just stay off my talk page until you've had a nap or something. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:07, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry how that came across. Not how it came out necessarily, I really don't think that it's possible to compare the Scandinavian languages to the SouthSlavic ones without seeming like you're missing some information. The differences between the former are significant, where the ones between the latter are pretty superficial.
I wasn't trying to say that your conversations are a waste of time - just those with Robert about Serbocroatian. The only arguments he has are those about SIL and genocide... and "grownups" don't call wiktionary votes genocides or crimes against humanity, neither do they recruit all their friends to manipulate the outcomes of said votes. The whole time he victimized himself, going on about how Ivan was abusing him... it's easy to see why - this person who has no deeper understanding of what's going on is trying to manipulate the whole process.
Robert rant aside... I do apologize for making it seem like I was talking about you specifically. It can be hard to express distinctly separate thoughts in one paragraph and keep them from seeming to be all interconnected. I didn't mean to be calling you or your personal ideas moronic, I just wanted to express that anyone who actually speaks any of the languages involved and doesn't have some bias would probably not give these comparisons a second thought. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 12:43, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I realize the differences between the Scandinavian languages are of greater intensity than those of SC. However, I remain convinced that a Scandinavian merger proposal would not be ridiculous, even if not necessarily a good idea. My primary point with that statement was to illustrate the steps which Ivan took in preparation for the SC merger. I also remain convinced that a conversation with Robert about SC isn't necessarily a waste of time. He remains the primary opponent of the SC merger proposal, and any consensus which could be reached with him would be beneficial to the project. I realize now that I lack the skill, self restraint, and impartiality to productively engage in that conversation, so it will likely not continue, but it is still a thing worth being attempted by my betters. I do appreciate (and accept) your apology and change of tone, but the thing is, any derogatory comments about me (whether they were there or not) was not what principally offended me. What offended me was that I was trying to have a very tricky and important conversation, and you and Ivan just felt the irresistible urge to chime in with jocular nastiness. While I believe your apology to be sincere, I also think it highly unlikely that any of you three will start engaging the issue with anything resembling civility, and thus the apology is moot. I think I am done with my misguided attempts to steer the conversation towards something resembling consensus. I wish I could wash my hands of it, but it is a stain on our community, one which I suspect will linger for some time. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 14:35, 13 May 2010 (UTC)
My civility mainly cracks when certain people I can't deal with are involved. If the person on the other side of the screen is willing to consider linguistic facts and not worry about political nonsense, there's nothing keeping me from being civil. Ullmann's only knowledge about SC is that there are four regional names for it. I don't think his motives are driven by desire to push wiktionary in the right direction... I don't see him being swayed by logic on this matter. That's why I was saying I thought it was a waste of time. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 18:01, 13 May 2010 (UTC)

Your block of Sven70[edit]

You blocked him for "Abusive behaviour" for a disability. You see, he has w:en:Repetitive Strain Injury. He uses a form of shorthand which can be hard to understand. Please see this for more info. --Bsadowski1 08:16, 16 May 2010 (UTC)

Yes, we've already had at least one 'pedia admin come to us about this, and are well aware of the circumstances. I suggest reading this for an explanation of the reblock. Thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 08:19, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
During my interaction with this user I became aware of his ability to write full-fledged and completely comprehensible sentences (see here and Talk:slordig, this was the case one year ago). Regargless of his short-hand which raises some ponderations while being read, the user has never resorted to it in his main space edits (see here) and you yourself gave him a helping hand in shaping the article slordig which he started. Henceforth, he has been able to contribute accurately and reliably in the main space with Chinese and Dutch edits and translations (not that I am familiar with these two languages, but no conversant user has raised any objections about his edits in them, to my ken). The bunch of e-mails which Conrad.Irwin forwarded to me contains harsh words and a block must perhaps have been inevitable, but I strongly contest its infinite duration (the first block lasts 3 days, but the second infinitely). Even if we disregard the human side of his case, the need for some attentive attitude towards him because of his RSI, based on his helpful entries in the main space I am convinced that Sven could turn out a helpful and prolific contributor, if we somehow discourage him from engaging in discussions (in order to præclude altercations). SemperBlotto has already unblocked Sven with the summary let's see, i. e. we should really ascertain whether he could be helpful here, a wish he professes according to Perohanych on his wikipedia talk page and I advocate a second chance for him as well. Please consider those sensible and promising edis: [3], [4], [5], [6], [7]. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 09:18, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
To begin with Semper unblocked him because he was asked to, and Semper hates getting into arguments. And, if you'll notice, he did so with reservations, and, I believe (though this can't be reasonably extracted from the raw text), against his better judgement. My recollection is that the user is a drama queen, who uses even the slightest lack of patience with his disability to go on long rants. We have other users with disabilities, such as User:Neskaya (with whom I believe you've had some first hand contact, Bogorm), who take a rather more pleasant approach. Neskaya has certain needs, which often require other users to adjust in some way. But, from what I've seen, they generally make very polite and humble requests. This user, on the other hand, is very quick to make rather vitriolic demands, and accuses users who do not immediately bend over backwards of being horrible bigots. The user is not being blocked for writing in shorthand, but rather for being rude, abusive, and generally wasting everyone's time without contributing all that much. In the BP convo which I previously linked to, Ruakh made it quite clear what a reasonable standard for unblocking would be, and I tend to agree with him. Should this happen, I will be more than happy to review the situation. Until then, I remain convinced of my stance, strengthened by the fact that many of our most reasonable-minded and respected admins concur. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 09:33, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't see how having a disability is a green light for abusive behavior. Mglovesfun (talk) 09:35, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
(@Atelaes) I do not contest the harshness of his words, I myself have observed in the e-mails forwarded by Conrad, neither do I contest the first three-days block. What embarrasses me is blocking a user valuable in main space edits for a duration of inifinite even if he is vitriolic. With regard to this, I suggested dissuading the user from engaging in discussions. His language in discussions may be harsh, but his edits are æqually accurate and promising. Can't we just summon on a separate page our administrators and see what the rest of them have to say as well? Similarly to the WP Community_bans_and_restrictions policy. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 09:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
(@Mglovesfun) I have never claimed that he is allowed to hit out at users, but that an infinite duration of the block is not justified.The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 09:50, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
I don't think his mainspace edits were all that exciting, mostly because half his edits were non-mainspace. We have had our admins discuss the the BP, and I followed the clear consensus reached there. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:49, 16 May 2010 (UTC)
1) half his edits were non-mainspace - this is not true or at best roughly rounded off. Here is the distribution of Sven's edits according to which 61% of his edits were in the mainspace (and are valuable edits, never quæstioned to my ken). I myself have a lower percentage.
2) clear consensus reached there - Here Conrad.Irwin says he does not mind giving Sven a second chance, and this is my position as well (consensus is with regard to this out of the quæstion). The difference between us two in this case is that Conrad has received incivil, harsh e-mails from Sven, whereas I have not, neither have you. Thus Conrad's generosity towards Sven shown by not opposing his second chance surpasses mine advocacy of Sven's intention to continue his work here. Sven was unblocked on 13 May, has made some valuable main space entries and the only edit of his outside the main space is this section in BP, where he suggests amending the User nl-4 template, which is an unambiguous proof that his edits have become as harmless as constructive, and that was the purpose of the second chance. But whether the unyielding harshness of Sven's repeated block surpasses Sven's verbal harshness from his discussions is a subjective quæstion, to which your and mine answer appear to be fairly dissimilar, even though you initially quæstioned the præsence of intimidation in his activity.The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 20:49, 17 May 2010 (UTC)
Oohh...that's a nice edit counter. I hadn't seen that before. In any case, the productivity issue is largely tangential; it's about behaviour. Sending abusive emails to folks is not something we tolerate. If the user had made any indication that he realized this, then I might reassess the issue. However, if you read his meta request, you'll see that he hasn't. He acts as though all of Wiktionary is some big conspiracy out to get him. I'm sorry, but I stand by my decision. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:58, 18 May 2010 (UTC)

About Latin entries[edit]

Thank you for your reminding! 13:21, 19 May 2010 (UTC)

Ancient Greek translations[edit]

Please see. Is this current format? If not, could you inform the editor and add suitable text to WT:AGRC to cover Ancient Greek translation format / sorting? --EncycloPetey 05:13, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

I don't think so. I'll have to double-check. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 09:02, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for butting in, but I think the best format is this:
*Greek: {{t|el|άρτος|tr=artos|m}}
**Ancient Greek: {{t|grc|ἄρτος|tr=artos|m}}
It is important that we nest Ancient Greek under Greek, because not many users will look for grc under “A”; they'll look for “G”, IMO. --Vahagn Petrosyan 12:50, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
You can both take a look at the comment I left on Eipnvn's page (such a cool use of characters in that name; very easy for me to read, much more difficult to type). Personally, I suspect that folks interested in Ancient Greek translations (all three of them) are probably rather evenly divided between looking in the A's and looking in the G's. This works out well, as our entries are similarly equally divided (hopefully everyone's looking at the right half). I'd like to see a meta-policy on how languages are sorted in general, so we can get some consistency. Ultimately, I think the issue's somewhat moot, as I strongly suspect that the vast majority of users looking at translations are consistently looking for a single language. Maybe tomorrow I'll try writing some new JS that will give them a way to tell Wiktionary what that language is, so it can simply be shown in the header. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 13:07, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
Mea culpa perhaps - I have been moving (not systematically, but those which I come across) examples like άρτος above so that they appear under "A" and not a sub head under "G". If pressed I would think this the best policy - but I take the point made that lots of people assume that "Greek" is the ancient variety.
I have thought occasionally that its a pity that the two (there are surely more) have to be separated - lots of language books say that Greek is one language (under continuous development!) —Saltmarshαπάντηση 14:59, 21 May 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure what we decided, but I remember a rather lengthy discussion some time ago. I thought the outcome was to organize languages in translations section mostly the same way that we do for language sections. That is, Old English is to go under "O", West Frisian under "W", Ancient Greek under "A", etc. However, that discussion was some time ago and I cannot be certain that I correctly remember its outcome. --EncycloPetey 01:43, 22 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, target translations are live. See User:Atelaes/Customization/Translations. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:11, 23 May 2010 (UTC)


You know, you really are a beacon of good sense.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 22:52, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Well thanks. I certainly try for that.....even if I sometimes fail. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:56, 23 May 2010 (UTC)
Heck, I wouldn't call that a failure of judgment. FWIW, I would never have come up with the idea of vote weighting by number of contributions had you not posted that; as a consequence of SemperBlotto's comments and suggestions, my proposal coalesced into what I presented in the Beer parlour. I'm just saying that your ability to maintain a cool head whilst still trying to address the issues that have arisen is an admirable trait.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 23:03, 23 May 2010 (UTC)

Etiquette of posting emails[edit]

Your response to a discussion at User:Bogorm has been very useful to me, including the link; thanks! I take from it that in most circumstances it is against etiquette to forward emails without a permission from the sender. Ruakh pointed out that posting things on-wiki implies releasing them under a CC-license, another issue to consider. What remains unclear to me is how forwarding emails off-wiki escapes breaking this etiquette. It seems to also break this etiquetee, although it at least avoids publishing emails on-wiki. Any input is appreciated. --Dan Polansky 13:38, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Truth be told, I don't think that forwarding emails does entirely escape that break of etiquette, but simply minimizes it....a lot. If you forward the email, one person, whom you ostensibly trust, gets to read the email. Posting it on wiki allows anyone and everyone to read it, forever, as the wiki is a public forum which is archived, used in other projects (such as Ninja Words) etc. In practice it really only means a few more people read it, as, if we're being serious, not that many people are really reading our Beer Parlour (or other discussion pages). But, at the very least, it's controlled. No one knows exactly who is going to read a posted email. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:46, 24 May 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Beer parlour#New and improved hideable quotes[edit]

Just a note to let you know that I've responded to your comments. If you have nothing more to say, that's ok; I just wanted to make sure you were aware. BP threads are so easy to lose track of. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:39, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

I'd noticed, thanks. I'll respond soon, and then post a note to your talk page to let you know that I have.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 01:41, 20 May 2010 (UTC)
I've responded.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 12:58, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. I'll try to address it reasonably soon. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 13:06, 26 May 2010 (UTC)
So, I've finally responded, even though I rather doubt my comments are going to be worth the wait..... Sorry it took so long. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 15:21, 9 June 2010 (UTC)
Don't worry about it; I've no right to complain, given the frequent delays in my responses. I've replied, FYI.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 17:13, 9 June 2010 (UTC)


Thanks. Didn't realise that. Ƿidsiþ 12:41, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

No problem. I still feel just a little impudent correcting your etymologies; though, not enough to prevent me from doing so, obviously. ;-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:45, 27 May 2010 (UTC)


You have new messages Hello, Atelaes. You have new messages at Keyboard mouse's talk page.
You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{talkback}} template.

--Keyboard mouse (talk) 19:14, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Hideable quotes bug[edit]

The "Show all quotations" button doesn't switch to "Hide all quotations" on the first click, it needs to be click again for it to switch, and then again for it to re-hide the quotes. Likewise, it doesn't switch from "Hide all quotations" to "Show all quotations" on the first click, it also needs to be clicked again. (I'm using Chrome 5 in case it's relevant, I didn't check other browsers.) --Yair rand (talk) 21:44, 31 May 2010 (UTC)

Damn, I thought I had that fixed. I'll take a look and see what I can figure out. Thanks for letting me know. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:53, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I think I've got it fixed. Try refreshing your cache and let me know what you get. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:14, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Fixed, thanks. --Yair rand (talk) 22:25, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Where is this button? I don't see either "show all quotations" or "hide all quotations" anywhere. If it matters at all, I'm using iExplorer.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 22:58, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
The button should be the last option in the "toolbox", on the left side of the screen, above the interwikis and below the logo. May I ask what version of IE you're using? Unfortunately, I don't have easy access to any versions of IE, so I'm going to have to rely on what you can tell me. Maybe I'll see if I can get it installed on my computer. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:20, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Yup, that's exactly where I was looking, yet it's nowhere to be seen. I'm using IE version 8.0.7600.16385 (ridiculously long number, I know).  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 23:28, 31 May 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I managed to get IE6 installed, and it's not displaying the 'show all' either, so I'll try and figure out why. Sweet Jesus, IE is borked on Linux. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I think I may have found something. Doremítzwr, could I ask a favor? Could you go to help, and then copy the following text, paste it into your url bar, and let me know what message it gives you?

If it gives the result I'm expecting, then we should be able to fix this. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

It shows up "DIV". (Using the exact same version of IE as Doremítzwr) --Yair rand (talk) 00:39, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Ditto: just DIV. What does that mean?  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 00:41, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
It means that Microsoft is doing things their own way again, the rest of the world be damned. More specifically, it means that IE is not treating line breaks in the HTML source code as nodes (every other browser does), which means that my JS was trying to place the 'toggle all' somewhere that IE didn't think existed. I'll have a workaround up in a few minutes. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:51, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I might have it now. Try refreshing your cache ([ctrl] + refresh) and let me know what happens. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:11, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Works now. --Yair rand (talk) 01:57, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Sweet. Let me know (either of you, or anyone else) if you run into any more problems. Thanks both for your help. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:07, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Sorry to do this to you, but it's not working for me. I've cleared my cache 'n' all, but that's made no difference.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 11:47, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I've just checked it with Firefox, and it works OK in that browser.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 11:50, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm...ok, then try going to help again and putting this code into the url bar and let me know what you get:
-Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 11:53, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
This time: UL.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 11:59, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Well, what the hell? It should work! Could you try [ctrl]+refresh one more time, just to be sure? Watch for a yellow exclamation icon at the bottom left corner. If you get one, click it and let me know what it says. If nothing happens this time, I may have to consult with folks more capable than I. Truth be told, I'm still a novice programmer, and I can't think of anything else to try. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:17, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't know what happened in the time I was away, but in that time the "Show all quotations" button has appeared. It looks like everything's just fine. :-)  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 16:32, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
BTW, should I expect a response in Wiktionary:Beer parlour#New and improved hideable quotes?  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 16:34, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
Good. Yes, I do intend to respond; sorry it's taken so long. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:25, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
No need to apologise; there's no rush. I know you're busy, and I was just ensuring you didn't forget.  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 11:26, 2 June 2010 (UTC)


Could you help again? What sort of form is μνᾶσθαι in relation to μνάομαι? It seems not to be active present infinitive[8]. --Dan Polansky 18:18, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

It's the present middle/passive infinitive. A little background: μνάομαι is deponent, so it's dictionary forms are going to be middle/passive (if you need more detail than that, just ask). -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:31, 1 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you. To be frank, I am unsure about how to enter μνᾶσθαι. Should it be as follows? Is there already a model entry that I can follow?

==Ancient Greek==

{{infl|grc|verb form}}

# {{inflection of|μνάομαι||Present middle/passive infinitive|lang=grc}}

--Dan Polansky 04:11, 2 June 2010 (UTC)

I would use a more segmented format, which is more easily read by machines, but otherwise, yeah.
# {{inflection of|μνάομαι||present|middle/passive|infinitive|lang=grc}}
-Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:47, 3 June 2010 (UTC)

Targeted translations error[edit]

When a language with nested translations is the target, the nested translation gets displayed, overlapping with the first translation (see water with Spanish as the target). Nadando 19:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Hmmm.....that's tricky. I'll get to work on it. Thanks for letting me know. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:19, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
Fixed....I hope. Try it out and let me know if there are further problems. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:36, 14 June 2010 (UTC)

Targeted translations and the phrasebook[edit]

Would it be possible to use your targeted translation script to include translations in phrasebook appendices? The way I see it working is, the translations are stored in a template which can be transcluded on pages like Appendix:Spanish phrasebook/Religion. The modification would be that we wouldn't want the entire table, just the Spanish translations. Nadando 22:01, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Let me make sure I understand what you're saying here. You're suggesting that we have a central repository of translations, perhaps at I'm a Christian, I'm a Muslim, etc., and then the Spanish translations (and only the Spanish translations) are pulled from those and shown at Appendix:Spanish phrasebook/Religion? If so, my script couldn't do something like that. A JS script might be able to pull that off, but it'd have to be a far more advanced one than mine (and, indeed, a far more advanced one than I could probably muster at this point). Quite frankly, I don't think JS would be the best approach in this situation, as you'd have quite the load time every time someone viewed that appendix. It would probably be better to have a lurking bot which scans phrasebook entries and lifts quotes from them and places them in the appropriate appendix. If I totally misunderstood what you were asking, I firstly apologise, and secondly request that you restate it. Oh, and I am working on your previously noted targeted translations bug as we speak. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:11, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
All I really meant was displaying the translation table as a single line of text, and hiding the rest of the translations. Forget the part about pulling translations from other pages. Nadando 22:30, 12 June 2010 (UTC)
Ah, I see. Yes, I suppose it could. Probably the simplest way would be to pull out the translation (as it already does), place it above or below the translation table (instead of in the header, as it currently does), and then hide the entire translation table. I don't suspect that it would be too terrible hard. The only other thing I can think of is to have the script figure out how to discern between phrasebook appendices and all else. Perhaps it could just look at the entry title..... -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:43, 12 June 2010 (UTC)

Hideable quotes[edit]

Whatever coding is being used appears to be buggy. Quotes keep disapeearing for me, and I have never wanted this option. It is very irritating to have the quotes collapsed for me when I am trying to examine and edit quotes. This happened a few days ago, then cleared up, and now it's happening again. There is no checkbox in my WT:PREFS to allow me to show the quotes. Please help!

How do I get the quotes to remain uncollapsed (at all times) for me? --EncycloPetey 16:39, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Click "Show quotations" in the sidebar. --Yair rand (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2010 (UTC)
Well....[insert colorful colloquialism]. When / where was this going to be announced? --EncycloPetey 18:09, 18 June 2010 (UTC)


Yes, the genus name is always capitalized, but drosophila is also now an English word for a member of that genus, much as aster is a flower in genus Aster. Some scientific names come to be used as common nous, and drosophila (lower case) is easily cited as a noun in English. --EncycloPetey 02:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose you're right. Sorry I didn't think of that. By the way, did you hear that Drosophila melanogaster (sp?) might get moved to a new genus as a result of some new genetic studies? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:57, 21 June 2010 (UTC)
Wouldn't be the first time that sort of this has happened. In fact geraniums are not in the genus Geranium, but in genus Pelargonium. It gets even worse when working with Latin, since not infrequently the modern scientific genus name has a totally different meaning from its Classical Latin root. --EncycloPetey 00:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Diego Grez Bot[edit]

Hi Atelaes! Tomorrow (well, today, it's 00:10 here in Chile) I'll correct the bot code, and I'll do a few more test edits. Sorry for the inconveniences and cheers! --Diego Grez 04:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Ok, I've unblocked the bot. I'd very much appreciate it if you would note exactly what changes you've made once you're done. I should note that we've had misbehaving bots wreak havoc here, and are the slightest bit paranoid about possible repeats. I suggest that you code carefully and test thoroughly, lest you run the risk of having the bot status removed. My Python skills are amateurish at best, but I'm happy to lend a hand in any way I can, as I suspect our more experienced programmers might also be. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 13:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)
To be precise, I was looking at the documentation of the script, and there is a way to run it without breaking anything. It's's -same function, or -wiktionary. I'm gonna test it, could you please unblock the bot? Thanks. --Diego Grez 21:28, 5 July 2010 (UTC)

I was asked by Diego to unblock the bot. Obviously, I told him I'd have to check with you. Since you're around, you can do it yourself. I hereby wash my hands of this.  :-) ​—msh210 (talk) 01:46, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Done. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:03, 7 July 2010 (UTC)

Customized pronunciation[edit]

I was wondering if you think that User:Atelaes/Customization/Pronunciation is stable enough to move into Common.js? If so, that would allow us to clean up the wiki text for pronunciations. Where we had IPA and non-IPA text we could remove the non-IPA (on site when equivalent, with an expert when different). Where we only have non-IPA we could convert to IPA(sometimes automatically, sometimes manually). Does this sound reasonable? --Bequw τ 21:04, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

No, unfortunately we're not at a point where we can do that yet. First of all, I still have to build the enPR functionality (which is nearly completed). Also, I think the thing needs to get a bit more community feedback before we start removing things. Paring it all down to just IPA is a pretty big change, and we really need to make sure the whole community's on board. I'll try and work on it soon, and then get some more feedback. Sorry. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:32, 24 June 2010 (UTC)
Thinking about this, we may never be able to completely remove SAMPA. Javascript doesn't work on my old windows mobile device, nor does it have UTF-8 support so much of the IPA and some enPR is invisible to me, so I can only see the SAMPA (hence you'll see the odd edit of mine only adding SAMPA). I'm sure that I can't be the only one to use a non-UTF-8, non-Javascript device to view Wiktionary. Thryduulf (talk) 00:49, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Hmmm...didn't think of that. I suppose the very devices which most need SAMPA are the ones most likely to have issues with JS. I suppose a server-side decision (i.e. a PHP extension) could resolve this, but that seems like a whole lot of work for rather little gain (and it's well beyond my capabilities at the moment). I maintain that having multiple pronunciation schemes hard-coded into entries is not an ideal situation, but perhaps we'll have to be more creative in solving it. Then again, I sometimes worry that restricting ourselves to web technologies that every outdated computer can handle kind of limits us to making a second-rate site. Thryduulf, have you seen all the cool new Android devices? ;-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:21, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Also, in light of this, I think I'll renege on my commitment to work on the script a bit more. Quite frankly, the primary utility of it was that it would allow us to pare down our pronunciation sections, and if it doesn't do that, I think it more trouble than it's worth. Truth be told, I've got some more interesting ideas that I'd like to try out. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:42, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't think we should worry too much about browsers that have no support for JS or UTF. The degradation is graceful and IE mobile browsers look to be only 0.05% of Wikimedia usage. Removing non-IPA transcriptions would also eliminate the possibility of having representations being out of sync with each other. If you do intend to drop the development, Atelaes, would you mind letting me know what you were to do, and I'll see if I can do it myself. --Bequw τ 02:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
It isn't only IE mobile devices that have this issue, but overall they probably are small. Howe significant a number they are I don't know. A simple solution (if possible, I have no idea) would be to display both IPA and SAMPA to browsers that can't handle js. As for Android devices, yes I'd like one but can't justify the expense at the moment. Thryduulf (talk) 08:37, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


Bug: If you click a link to a section (on the same page), click the tab to go back to the first section, and then click the link again, it doesn't work. --Yair rand (talk) 04:57, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

I just changed the code a few minutes ago. It should work now. Try refreshing your cache. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:59, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
If I hadn't refreshed the cache, not even the first link would have worked, would it? :) I saw your post in the GP and that's why I started clicking every available button in the first place. Try it, the tab doesn't switch so long as the URL doesn't change, as in my example. --Yair rand (talk) 05:04, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Seems fixed, although with the downside of turning all the tabs purple. --Yair rand (talk) 05:10, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, sorry about that. I have forked code for Vector vs anything else, and only changed the Vector. As you've discovered, it's been fixed for everything else now. The tabs are now actual links instead of javascript functions, so they will change appearance once visited. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:13, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Hm, it would probably be better if they were made to look always unvisited; visited links don't look so good, especially in the context of tabs where everything always looks unvisited. Also, you might want to change the style of the line under the tabs in vector skin so that they look blue like other vector tabs bars, rather than grey. Also, when clicking on one of the tabs while it's already selected scrolls the page down to below the tabs (at least in monobook, I didn't check with vector). --Yair rand (talk) 05:21, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Excellent points on colors. Those should be easy fixes. As for scrolling down too far, that is a bit more perplexing. On my browser (Linux FF) it works just fine, it's pulled down so that the L2 header (and consequently the language tabs) is at the top. However, my roommate's browser (OS X Safari) suffers from the same problem yours does, and I am at a loss as to why this would be. I'll do my best to figure it out. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:38, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
One more thing: When viewing a page's history, the tabs all link to 404's. --Yair rand (talk) 07:11, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I don't suppose you know what color I'm supposed to be changing the H2 to is, do you? It seems to be bordering every important element on the page, and yet nothing seems to have a border property at all. Very frustrating. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 07:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
I'm not positive, but it seems to be pulled off (#A7D7F9). --Yair rand (talk) 07:31, 28 June 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I think you're right. It looks correct, and it would explain the lack of borders. Thanks. Language tabs now work in page revision and preview modes. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 10:19, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

TabbedLanguages ToC[edit]

Just wanted to say that I really like the feature (I reposted in the GP about the snag I found). I don't much care, but if people want the option of have the ToC as well, is it possible to wrap each of the L2 parts of the ToC list and hide/show them with the rest of the content? --Bequw τ 18:19, 29 June 2010 (UTC)

It is possible (or at least I very strongly suspect so), and I'm working on that feature. Thanks for the comment and the bug. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:26, 30 June 2010 (UTC)

TabbedLanguages Categories[edit]

One thing that I've thought would be great is to show categories closer to the correct language entry. Originally I thought of using JS to to make a category bar at the end of each entry and moving up from the page footer the categories that I could be sure would go with the above sections. A rough heuristic is to move up any category beginning with a language code or name (exception), and leave at the bottom ones I was unsure about. This idea, however, might fit better with your format. You could hide all categories that you would be sure wouldn't go with the current language section, and leave visible the questionable ones. --Bequw τ 21:15, 1 July 2010 (UTC)

I briefly toyed with the idea of sorting the cats, but it is really complicated. Category:French derivations is another exception. Ultimately, order is the best indicator, but even that's tricky. I'll add it to my might bug list, and might revisit it at some point, but it's low on my priority list. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:08, 1 July 2010 (UTC)
Don't forget Category:Latin script characters. All entries contain a POS category which includes the name of the language (I think), so the categories in a language section would go "X derivations" (optional), "[language name which matches header] [nouns/plurals/other pos]", and then all other categories until the next derivations cat or next lang's pos cat go under the same header. --Yair rand (talk) 21:41, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I had thought of Latin characters. However, thus far 'characters' and 'derivations' are the only cats I've thought of which don't necessarily reside within the language which is the first word of their name. Let me know if you think of any others. I don't think that category order within a language section is reliable enough to operate off of; too many entries without etymologies, etc. I was thinking of having the JS go through the cats, one by one. If there is an English section, it would put every cat found in the English section until it found the first entry which started with '<SIL code>:' or '<full language name>'. After that, it would operate just like it would operate on any entry without an English section, i.e. checking the aforementioned SIL-colon or language name and putting the cats in the appropriate containers. I'm thinking it would be order dependent, so that if it found a cat without a language name or SIL code on an entry with no English section, or found a French category after it was done Galician, it would break. However, I'm thinking "break" in this context would simply mean putting the cat in a general container, to be shown for all language sections, and noted as a sort failure. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:53, 5 July 2010 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand what you mean, but this is the kind of method I was thinking of... --Yair rand (talk) 03:44, 6 July 2010 (UTC)
That code looks pretty good. I strongly suspect it'll have to be added to, but overall concept looks solid. I'll give it a go after I get the Chrome Vector wrapping issue sorted. Thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:01, 6 July 2010 (UTC)


Hi, what programming languages are you familiar with. I have already created a bot in Java (I also speak PHP) and I can maybe provide a small virtual server with root access for you, so you can run the bot from there. I'm really interested in having these identifiers (as you probably already figured out), so you can count on me, if there is work to do... SebastianHellmann 16:40, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, before I forget, I'm working on this: NLP2RDF and I'm currently working on a problem similar to the creation of glosses. Based on first sentences of about 200 Wikipedia articles (i.e. definitions), I'm trying to normalize things (so things fall together that belong together): All syntactic parts, lemmatized and determiners filtered out, ordered by length. Although the task of creating good glosses is AI-complete, I might be able to add some punch in addition to regex. The only problem is maybe that it was w:Not_Invented_Here and might not get accepted by the community SebastianHellmann 17:29, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I should caution that I'm an amateur at best when it comes to programming, in any language. My strongest language is Python, but I do have a little experience in Java. However, I suspect the bot would be a lot easier if written in Python, as there is already a Python bot framework built specifically for interacting with Wikimedia sites. Perhaps I'll nudge one of our folks who writes bots from time to time, and see if they'd be willing to give me their code, so I have something to build off of. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
You should choose as you feel comfortable. The bot framework seems quite well developed, so yes, why not. Autoformat seems to use it also. I could start to make (or find) a list of all English articles from the dump, which can be used for the first run. SebastianHellmann 05:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)
Out of curiosity, what is the extra punch? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:13, 8 July 2010 (UTC)
In case the community, decides to create some form of glosses automatically at the beginning, some software will have to produce them. I'm not sure how good the regex will be, but it will be working on the string not the content. I could provide a REST-webservice that takes a definition and returns e.g. the head of the first verb phrase with all determiners and adjectives removed or e.g. the two most relevant terms according to w:tf-idf. This would be some extra punch. Integration would be easy, over a http request. SebastianHellmann 05:40, 9 July 2010 (UTC)


ok, your script works and I could include it, I just had to remove </span> from {{senseid}}

Kindly ignore text below

Hi, I somehow do not manage to include your script User:Atelaes/highlightSense.js I added it to User:SebastianHellmann/vector.js . The worst thing is that I also cannot find any documentation... Did I do everything right? I also refreshed the browser cache (also closed and opened it) and then I went to User:ChristianMeyer/TestBoat#English-water_craft or User:ChristianMeyer/TestBoat#English-cyclohexane Could you give me hint, what I'm doing wrong here? Thanks SebastianHellmann 06:50, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

It looks like msh210 has reverted your edit to {{senseid}}. He's pointed out some serious problems with its original incarnation (without the ending span tag), and I think we should leave the end tag in. I'll need to update my script to highlight the id's parent node instead of the node itself, but that should be pretty easy. Unfortunately, circumstances prevent me from doing so today, but I should be able to get it done within the next couple days. If you bug msh210 or Yair, it's possible that one of them might do it sooner. If you can figure it out, please feel free to do it yourself (no idea what your JS background is). -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:32, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

prop. gen.[edit]

Do you know this abbrevition (example)? I think the 'gen.' is genitive, but what's the 'prop'? --Bequw τ 20:05, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

I've removed some prop. pp. as well. I also have no idea what it means. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:07, 15 July 2010 (UTC)
Not really sure. Perhaps "proper"? In that case τέλεος is the genitive singular of τέλος. It's the original, uncontracted form, so proper sort of kind of makes sense there..... On a side note, the word doesn't come from the genitive at all, it comes from the root, which is τελεο-, but I suppose that's another matter. Sorry I couldn't be of more help here. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:21, 16 July 2010 (UTC)


You said 'let me know if you have any questions' in 2008, so I'm asking. :) that might be a bit late but...I've always wanted to know this: is OR allowed in Wiktionary? Thanks, Kayau 09:12, 16 July 2010 (UTC)

Sorry about the late response. I'm having a little difficulty understanding your question. We do have OR, which appears to be the programming operator. I considered you might also be talking about Oriya, a language of India, which has the code "or", which is certainly allowed here. If it's not one of those two, could you please clarify what you're asking? Thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:54, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
(I think Kayau might be referring to Original Research.) --Yair rand (talk) 03:24, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
Ah, good call. I didn't think of that. Kayau, if you are, in fact, referring to original research, the question is somewhat tricky. Ultimately, it must be admitted that we do, to an extent, allow original research here, as opposed to Wikipedia, which basically doesn't, but it really depends on the context. If you could clarify exactly what kind of OR you're talking about, I could give a better answer. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:28, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
Sorry for not writing it in full; I thought you would understand as the abbreviation is commonly used in WP and WB. What I'd like to know is the general aspects of original research. What sort of original research is allowed, then? What sort is not allowed? Thanks Kayau 11:40, 18 July 2010 (UTC)
Generally, definitions are allowed to be original research. We pull quotes from sources, and then attempt to extract a word's meaning from those quotes. Also, things like synonyms, translations, and the like are allowed to be OR. Etymological information is generally not permitted to be OR, but must follow an established source. However, in all things, we like to at least check our info against that of our competitors. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:15, 18 July 2010 (UTC)


There appears to be a problem with the script: There is no way for it to work when a sense is linked to from within the page without the page being reloaded. Perhaps it could be made to work like something along these lines?


--Yair rand (talk) 04:08, 2 August 2010 (UTC)

I've never used the "target" modifier in CSS, but assuming it does what I think it does, I suspect that would probably work. However, as you may have noticed, my attention has been stolen by another project as of late. I very strongly intend to resume my Wiktionary work in time (probably a month or so), but for the time-being I won't be working on any of my scripts. However, please feel quite free to modify any of them yourself. Sorry. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:02, 2 August 2010 (UTC)


Hi Atelaes. Is μισανδρία (misandría) an Ancient Greek, a Modern Greek, or a some-other-form-of-Greek word? The OED's etymology section for misandry, n. states: "< miso- comb. form + ancient Greek ἀνδρ-, ἀνήρ man (see andro- comb. form) + -y suffix³, after misogyny n. Compare Greek μισανδρία, in scholia (medieval Greek or earlier) on Euripides Andromache 228." That sounds to me as if the word is first attested in Byzantine Greek, but I'm not entirely confident of my interpretation. Byzantine Greek is treated under Ancient Greek on the English Wiktionary, isn't it? What do you know of this word?  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 14:11, 22 August 2010 (UTC)

I agree with your interpretation that the word is first attested in Byzantine Greek, which is indeed covered under "Ancient Greek" here on Wiktionary. My sources don't state much of anything beyond what you've got here. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks. Noted. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 09:45, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Update Sense IDs[edit]

Hi, what do you think are the next steps? Is there a discussion going on? Shall I do some coding or test something? SebastianHellmann 20:02, 24 August 2010 (UTC)

See above, Atelaes won't be back until about a month from August 2. There's no discussion about senseids going on right now. I'm pretty sure the next step is building the code for a bot that can find/generate senseids for all/almost all definitions and apply the templates. --Yair rand (talk) 06:41, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Indeed, Yair is correct on all counts. The next steps would be to tweak the template code, write the bot code to install all the identifiers, and then engage the community about the whole thing. I suspect the third part will easily be the more demanding. As of yet, other projects continue to take my time and energy, but I do hope to return to Wiktionary eventually. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:23, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
I might have a master student who is an expert in javascript and other languages. He still has to decide, if he wants to have this topic (Wiktionary2RDF) as his final thesis. But if he accepts, he can do some of the coding and fine tuning. Maybe you and Yair can give him some tips and requirements. Do you have any objections? The script at User:Atelaes/highlightSense.js seems to be missing though. 11:38, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
It looks like Yair has rendered it unnecessary with some clever CSS. If you've got a good coder, their efforts would probably be best spent on the id tagging bot (easiest in Python, but possible in probably any language). As I said before, however, the greatest hurdle is probably getting community consensus for the whole thing. Be forewarned that any efforts towards this project could be wasted if the community doesn't like the idea. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:20, 17 September 2010 (UTC)
Sounds like the chicken and the egg. Somebody has just to start making a prototype, i.e. a template, a way to highlight it (where can I find Yairs version??). Then we have something solid to show to people and we can start making a specification what the ids should look like and then code the bot. I met a whole group of people who are like-minded (Amgine and Bina and 15 others), if you pm me (hellmann at, I can add you to the mailing list (if you are interested). SebastianHellmann 07:55, 17 September 2010 (UTC)

Attention to Hý[edit]

Hello. You tagged as needing attention. I don't know what in particular you tagged it for, as you did not fill out the "reason" line or make a talk page section. I made some general improvements, anything I could see missing, hoping I got it anyway. LokiClock 02:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

The edits you've made are more than sufficient. In truth, the entry simply looked questionable, especially the definition, which I found nonsensical until you expanded it (I was thinking the direction "down" and was utterly confused :-)), and I wanted someone with some knowledge of Old Norse to check it over. Thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:19, 14 September 2010 (UTC)
Sure thing, and I felt the same way about the "down." LokiClock 22:17, 1 October 2010 (UTC)


Hello! Could you please take a look at the declension table? The vocative is Δήμητερ but there must be a better way to put it in. --flyax 20:12, 13 September 2010 (UTC)

I've modified the entry to use one of the standard templates. Nearly all the inflection templates utilize a suite of optional parameters which can be used to override any individual form. The name of the parameter is simply the first two letters of each word in that form, so nominative plural is "NP", and vocative singular is "VS". As far as I can tell, it produces identical results to your manual version, save vowel marks, which it has added. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:17, 14 September 2010 (UTC)


Hello Atelaes. Is δωδεκαρχία (dōdekarkhía) attested in Ancient Greek or in a later variety of Greek prior to 1662? Wiktionary:Beer parlour#"Synchronic" and "diachronic" etymologies explains why I ask. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 18:43, 19 September 2010 (UTC) LSJ mentions δωδεκάρχης, but gives no cites, and does not mention δωδεκαρχία at all. You may want to ask Flyax, as his resources are rather more comprehensive than mine. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:55, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Done. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 09:57, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


Hi. All nouns in Special:WhatLinksHere/Template:grc-decl-3rd-N-dn-prx have a problem in the dative plural (e.g γραμμάσι instead of the correct γράμμασι). I tried to fix the template but it's so complicated I've got frustrated. Could you please do something? --flyax 22:10, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. It might take a few minutes for the job queue to get through all of them, but I suspect they should be fixed within an hour at most, if not significantly less (I've never really understood the pacing on template inclusion updates). -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 11:58, 23 September 2010 (UTC)
Thank you! --flyax 12:39, 23 September 2010 (UTC)

The British Library Digitised Manuscripts.[edit]

I came across a link to this (via this), and thought it might interest you. —RuakhTALK 00:26, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

It does indeed interest me. Thanks for the link. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:07, 28 September 2010 (UTC)

heptamerede ← … ← *ἑπταμερηδ-?[edit]

Hi Atelaes. You might have noticed my request that entries for διμερής (dimerḗs, bipartite), πολυμερής (polumerḗs, multipartite”, “manifold), and τριμερής (trimerḗs, tripartite) be created. They are compounds that feature the combining form (-μερής) of μέρος (méros, part), according to the OED. I have three pertaining questions, and would be most grateful if you could provide me with answers to them. Firstly, are those requested terms' stems διμερηδ- (dimerēd-), πολυμερηδ- (polumerēd-), and τριμερηδ- (trimerēd-), respectively? Secondly, does the analogous term *ἑπταμερής (heptamerḗs, septempartite) exist in Ancient Greek? And thirdly, would it be reasonable to assert that heptamerede represents an etymon — actual or hypothetical — of the form *ἑπταμερηδ- (heptamerēd-)? Any help you can provide would be gladly received. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 11:14, 24 January 2011 (UTC)

Raifʻhār, may I begin by asking a rather tangential question? Would you be in any way offended by me addressing you with a version of your name sans diacritics? Admittedly, I don't actually type your name all that often, even when we're having an intense one on one discussion, but it does come up, and the only way I can correctly spell your name is to copy and paste from your signature. While this doesn't take all that long to do, it does rather break up my rhythm. On the other hand, names are a funny thing. My name in real life (Jesse) switches genders when the final 'e' is replaced with an 'i', and people tend to always spell it with that 'i', to my great chagrin. Consequently, I can sympathize with people who are particular about how their names are spelled. So, I would much prefer an honest answer to an accommodating one.
As to your question. Unfortunately, I am in the process of changing residences at the moment, and so lack the time, motivation, and mental clarity to investigate. Oh, and all my books are in boxes :). However, all should be settled in under a week, and I will make a point of researching it very shortly thereafter. One (and sadly, the only) thing I can tell you right off the top of my head is that your hypothesis is reasonable (dependent, of course, upon the word actually existing). There is a regular transformation of sorts which adds a -δη to the end of words ending in -ης, so a *ἑπταμερηδης could be created from a *ἑπταμερής. I don't recall quite what the -δη means, but I almost think it's analogous to the -er in baker, fisher, etc., i.e. a vocation creation suffix, one who does something. When I check on the existence of the words in question, I will try and find some examples of that transformation. As for the requested entries.....I am still of the impression that writing entries by hand is simply too inefficient. Sadly, my plans for automatic bot importation of the LSJ have been derailed, for the time-being at least. However, I have started work on a javascript (i.e. built into the browser) entry creation wizard. My vision is along the lines of Yair rand's newentrywiz, but distinctly more involved and with a lot of automation. Then again, perhaps I'll just do a few the old fashioned way. It is kind of a soothing exercise. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 13:51, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Call me “Raif”; pretty much everyone IRL does. You can easily enter ‘í’ using the key combination Alt Gr + i, which means that typing “Doremítzwr” shouldn't break up your rhythm too much. Is that OK? If Alt Gr + i doesn't work for you that way, feel free to write “Doremitzwr”, sans the acute accent; it happens too often for it to bother me, anyway.
Thanks for your feedback re my specific questions. The analysis of heptamerede ← *ἑπταμερηδης as an agent noun formed from ἑπτά (heptá, seven) + -μερής (-merḗs, part) + -δη (-dē, -er) is consistent with an erroneous but recurrent Spanish translation lo que divide en siete partes (that which divides into seven parts) which I've seen in a number of English–Spanish dictionaries, three nineteenth-century English dictionaries' erroneous definitions (“that which divides into seven parts”, “[a] div[i]der int[o] sev[e]n p[a]rts”), and an English–Welsh dictionary's two otherwise-unattested calques (seithranor and seithranydd = seith- (seven) + ran (part) + -or, -ydd (-er)).
Don't worry about the three entries I requested at WT:RE:grc; they're not very important for me. The creation of an entry (or entries) for *ἑπταμερής (heptamerḗs) &c. would be more useful for my purposes (just because of the link with heptamerede), but my main concern was with getting an answer to my questions so that I could make sure that that English entry's etymology section is as accurate and informative as possible.
You might've noticed that I spend most of my editing time doing high-quality (as opposed to high-quantity) work, as is the case with balanephagous and heptamerede — the former isn't listed in any other dictionary (that I know of), whereas the latter has involved the correction of supposed authorities that make lazy argumenta ad etymologiam. You're probably right that your time ATM is better spent on automatically importing the LSJ, but in the long run, there can be no substitute for manual grunt-work. That's how I justify it to myself, anyway; and it must be said, it is often rather rewarding. :-) Thanks again. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 15:12, 24 January 2011 (UTC)
Ok, I've created ἑπταμερής, which does in fact exist. Having reread your initial post, I realized that I didn't answer your fundamental question, except perhaps incidentally. The stem of ἑπταμερής, and others like it, is not ἑπταμερήδ-, but rather it is ἑπταμερεσ-. The final sigma drops, and then the ending vowels of the stem play with the beginning vowels of the inflection, and do some crazy things. Of particular oddity is the fact that the noun and adjective of the same stem inflect differently, a fact which I have yet to hear an explanation for. There are some interesting and perhaps helpful notes in the inflection table of μέρος. I could not find any ης -> ηδης examples. It's possible that they exist, and we simply don't have any on Wiktionary. It's also entirely possible that I was quite mistaken that the paradigm even exists at all. Most of the words ending in δης/δής did so as a result of having εἶδος as an etymon. So, it's possible that heptamerede's etymology is ἑπτά + μέρος + εἶδος. Anywho, I'm sorry that I couldn't find you a more definitive answer. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:54, 3 February 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for getting back to me. I've not the time to give a full response now. I have a question: When was the existence of ἑπταμερής first known? Or rather, when would it most likely to have been first known to the editors of the NED (OED, 1ˢᵗ ed.)? I ask, because the OED (2ⁿᵈ ed.)'s entry states that the etymology of heptamerous is hepta- + μέρος + -ous, and that entry is unchanged from the NED's entry (see page 226). I'm wondering whether the etymology is better presented as ἑπταμερής + -ous… Thanks again. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 21:47, 8 February 2011 (UTC)
If the the OED says it's from hepta- + μέρος + -ous, then it probably is. I think we can do nothing but assume they've known it all along. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:46, 9 February 2011 (UTC)
Well, I've given the etymology for heptamerous as hepta- + -merous, because the entry for -merous in the OED (draft revision for the 3ʳᵈ ed., June 2010) gives that suffix's etymology as "< French -mère and its etymon ancient Greek -μερής having (a specified number of) parts, sharing (see -MERE comb. form) + -OUS suffix", which is pretty much equivalent to saying μέρος + -ous. Looking again at that entry, it later on in the etymology section says "[a form] in…hepta-…probably originate[s] in English (although [it has an analogue] in Greek)", so that settles it as you suggested; I'll add ἑπταμερής, introduced by "compare".
Would it be accurate to call -μερ- the contracted stem of -μερής, given what the entry for μέρος says? As for heptamerede, does εἶδος form agent nouns? None of its senses seem compatible. What rôle does it play in the words of which it is an etymon?
Thanks again. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 01:32, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
I don't think it'd be accurate to call -μερ- anything. Granted, it's the only bit that's consistent after all the contractions are done, and so someone who doesn't understand what's going on might be tempted to cite it as something meaningful, but μερεσ- is the root, and I there really isn't such a thing as a contracted root. εἶδος as a combining form is rather analagous to -ish. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:52, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
I'm trying to work out how best to explain -merous. It's not true that it's formed from Ancient Greek -μερεσ- + English -ous (which would render *-meresous). The OED is silent on the issue of exact formation, just saying (essentially) "French -mère and/or Ancient Greek -μερής + English -ous"; however, that can't be taken as the whole story, because it results in different forms for the suffix depending on the etymon (viz. *-mèr(e)ous and *-merêsous). In a way I can't quite express, -merous is well-formed on the root of -μερής; I just want to explain how — any ideas?
-Ish forms adjectives, so if εἶδος is truly analogous with it, I very much doubt that it is a part of heptamerede's derivation. In full, the chain (which is given with an ellipsis as this section's title), as I understand it, is: English heptameredeFrench heptaméridehepta- (← Ancient Greek ἑπτά, perhaps with one or more Latin or other intermediary) + mérideAncient Greek ? ← -μερής (comb. form of μέρος) + ? — however, I might just have been in looking in the wrong place (i.e., Ancient Greek), and the -ede / -ide element might be an element from some other language (perhaps French or Latin), though it is doubtful that the spelling of heptamerede would have been regularised from the French heptaméride whilst that uniquely French element (-ide) was retained. I'll ask Martin whether he knows anything about (hepta)méride. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 18:31, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

[οὐρανός] ϝορσανός[edit]

Hi where do you getted this word & etymology ? Gmazdên 22:18, 26 January 2011 (UTC)

Well, I wrote that over two years ago, so I'm not entirely sure, but if I had to hazard a guess, it would be from Beekes (btw, that website is crap and doesn't work half the time). -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:05, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Ἀρκάδες Ἀζᾶνες βαλανηφάγοι, οἳ Φιγάλειαν Νάσσασθ᾽, &c. — Orac. Pyth. ap. Pausan. Arcad. c. 42.[edit]

Hi Atelaes (or would you prefer Jesse?). How would you translate Ἀρκάδες Ἀζᾶνες βαλανηφάγοι, οἳ Φιγάλειαν Νάσσασθ᾽? Also, what does "Orac. Pyth. ap. Pausan. Arcad. c. 42." refer to? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 16:52, 27 January 2011 (UTC)

Atelaes is fine. The first part is simply an appositive. 'Ἀζᾶνες' means those of 'Zan', which is apparently just another name for Arcadia, so I would simply drop it in a translation (it would be like saying 'the Americans from the US', fine in Ancient Greek, horrible in English). So, it could either be considered a full clause: 'The Arcadians are acorn-eaters', or a introductory phrase: 'The acorn-eating Arcadians.' The second part is something like, 'those who inhabit Phigalia.' So, the full thing would be, 'The acorn-eating Arcadians, who dwell in Phigalia...'. Looking at the full work, it looks like it's part of a larger introductory clause (Ancient Greek positively loves page-long sentences), so it's not really supposed to be grammatically complete. If you wanted to include 'Ἀζᾶνες' in the thing, you could say 'The Azanian Arcadians', as they've done here, but the word 'Azanian' isn't really meaningful in English (or at least not referencing the Arcadian region), so I'd just leave it myself. Then again, proper nouns are rather more flexible as to whether they 'exist' in any language or not. So, yeah. Any questions, let me know. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:32, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
Oh, great, thanks! That's a footnote to a citation I've used. If it's all the same to you, I'll use that "official" translation, rendering "Azanian Arcadians, acorn-eaters, who dwell in Phigaleia, &c.". I see that's from a work by Pausanias, which I'm guessing is the name for which the abbreviation "Pausan." stands; what about the rest of those abbreviations? Could you expand the abbreviated citation into its full form please? Lastly, could you offer any reason why Ἀρκάδες, Ἀζᾶνες, Φιγάλειαν, and Νάσσασθ᾽ all have initial majuscules, whereas βαλανηφάγοι and οἳ have initial minuscules? –Ἀρκάδες, Ἀζᾶνες, and Φιγάλειαν are all proper nouns (right?), but Νάσσασθ᾽ doesn't make the same sense… Thanks again, and any help you can give would be most appreciated. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 13:55, 10 February 2011 (UTC)
Νάσσασθ should not be capitalized, and in many of the other versions of this work that I've seen, it's not. I suggest uncapitalizing it in our cites. I'm not entirely sure what the abbreviations stand for. It's from the 'Arcadian' chapter of Pausanias' 'Description of Greece.' I can only suspect that the abbreviations are for the Latin version of that information. You might run it by EncycloPetey and see if he can guess what words could be thus abbreviated and mean that. Sorry. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί
Hello. These words belong to a Pythia's prophecy mentioned by Pausanias in Arcadia, 42 (full text here). So we could read the abbr. as Oraculum Pythiae apud ... (or something like that). --flyax 15:43, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
@ Atelaes: The original source for that footnote is this, which is why I used ϱ and ϰ in Ἀρκάδες, rather than ρ and κ. Since it's an English quotation with an Greek footnote, I don't think it would be appropriate to uncapitalise Νάσσασθ as we would for an Ancient Greek quotation. On that topic, I'm not entirely certain whether the βαλανηφάγοι in that footnote has an initial minuscule or whether it is in fact Βαλανηφάγοι, but it looks more like a minuscule beta to me; what do you reckon?
@ Flyax: Excellent. So shall I expand the footnote we have to "Ἀρκάδες Ἀζᾶνες βαλανηφάγοι, οἳ Φιγάλειαν Νάσσασθ᾽, &c. — Orac[ulum] Pyth[iæ] ap[ud] Pausan[ian] Arcad[ian] c[aput] 42." (assuming my case endings are correct) and translate it as "Azanian Arcadians, acorn-eaters, who dwell in Phigaleia, &c. — Oracle of Pythia in the writings of Pausanias in Arcadia chapter 42."?
 — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 19:59, 11 February 2011 (UTC)
I asked Caladon about this (EncycloPetey was unavailable, having not contributed here since the 15ᵗʰ of December). In the light of our discussion, I shall expand the footnote to "Ἀρκάδες Ἀζᾶνες βαλανηφάγοι, οἳ Φιγάλειαν Νάσσασθ᾽, &c. — Orac[ulum] Pyth[iæ] ap[ud] Pausan[ian de] Arcad[iâ in] c[apite] 42." and translate it as "Azanian Arcadians, acorn-eaters, who dwell in Phigaleia, &c. — Oracle of Pythia in the writings of Pausanias on Arcadia in chapter 42.". — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 10:40, 21 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Atelaes. Could you judge that beta, please? Is the word βαλανηφάγοι or Βαλανηφάγοι? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 15:10, 1 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry about that. It does look like a lowercase beta, as uppercase betas typically don't have the tail, rather they look basically identical to Latin capital B's. However, I can't shake the feeling that it looks bigger than it should for lowercase. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:56, 2 April 2011 (UTC)
Yes, its size is one of the things that made me unsure, too (the other is the fact that every other Greek word bar οἳ in that footnote is capitalised). Still, if you're leaning toward seeing it as a minuscule, I'll go with that. Thanks. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 14:06, 3 April 2011 (UTC)

Poll on formatting of etymologies[edit]

I would like to know your preference as regards the use of "<" vs "from" in the formatting of etymologies in Wiktionary, whatever that preference is. Even explicit statement of indifference would be nice. You can state your preference in the currently running poll: WT:BP#Poll: Etymology and the use of less-than symbol. I am sending you this notification, as you took part on some of the recent votes, so chances are you could be interested in the poll. The poll benefits from having as many participants as possible, to be as representative as possible. Feel free to ignore this notification. --Dan Polansky 15:24, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Help porting your quote-hiding javascript to Simple Wiktionary[edit]

Hi, Atelaes. We're looking for some help, and The Dave Ross has suggested that you might know what to do.--Brett 20:23, 1 March 2011 (UTC)

Ruakh has stepped in so no need. Thanks anyhow!--Brett 13:44, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

Vote on formatting of etymologies[edit]

There is the vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-02/Deprecating less-than symbol in etymologies, which would benefit from your participation, even if only in the role of an abstainer. Right now, the results of the vote do not quite mirror the results of the poll that has preceded the vote. There is a chance that the vote will not pass. The vote, which I thought would be a mere formality, has turned out to be a real issue. You have taken part on the poll that preceded the vote, which is why I have sent you this notification. --Dan Polansky 08:23, 10 March 2011 (UTC)

Mycenaean Greek[edit]

Thank you so much for getting the Myc Gr / LinB section started :) Damate 06:57, 2 July 2011 (UTC)

Sure thing, though I wonder if Ivan's done more than I at this point. I'm not terribly active as of late, but I use Wiktionary fairly often and so will notice comments on my talk page within a few days at most. Feel free to let me know if you need anything. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:43, 2 July 2011 (UTC)


A rare word, I was just trying to pin down the etymology. At the minute I've just put a reference to κρυπτός (kruptós), but I wonder if we can be more specific. I notice that κρυπτάδια (kruptádia) appears in Homer, where from what I can tell it means ‘secretly’. I don't know enough about Ancient Greek to understand what suffixes are involved here, and also it seems strange to borrow an adverb for a noun. Is there anything else "kruptadia" could represent, that occurs to you? Ƿidsiþ 12:14, 12 August 2011 (UTC)