User talk:Atelaes/2008a

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Archived discussions for 2006 and 2007.


Welcome back[edit]

Welcome back. We've missed you! --EncycloPetey 23:17, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

I just haven't put in all of January's words yet. Other coming WOTDs for January include epenthesis, peripatetic, impecunious, redolent, bastion, prehensile, autological, jeremiad, dichotomous, and vignette. I've been busy as well, and don't like to set up the WOTD templates until the definitions for the coming words have been polished up. --EncycloPetey 23:29, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Two special requests: (1) Could you clean up the etymology (and AGr. pages) for comedy? It's not in the current format, and there are issues in dealing with AGr. formatting where I'm not yet confident. (2) Could you recommend a common Modern Greek word that descends from a similar (but not identical) Ancient Greek word, wherewe have entries for both words? I'm thinking of drafting a section for Wiktionary:About Ancient Greek that parallels some of the work I did recently for Wiktionary:About Latin. Specifically, putting in a section about formatting etymologies from Ancient Greek words. The two point above will allow me to write the draft, after which point you can look it over and correct/supplement my draft. I'm keen to get this done while you're available, and while the idea is still fresh in my mind. We have so many English words that come from Ancient Greek that such a section will be very useful to have written. I only did the Latin equivalent two weeks ago, as a result of helping a new Hungarian contributor. --EncycloPetey 02:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)


re User talk:Saltmarsh#nenikekamen I take your (possibly) correctly made point! I cannot remember what was going through my mind when I created the article (perhaps as - an admittedly much less common - parallel with Eureka!)- I have dug myself in further by putting in the (more common) alternative spelling. Google books has instances - mostly I think musical and often titles - and ordinary Google has about 1000 for each. I guess someone may come across some of these instances and wish to look up the meaning. If you still think that it should be RFDed please do that. —SaltmarshTalk 07:25, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Hello there![edit]

Hello there, long time away due to family growth. I will, thanks. Unorthografair 10:20, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. You are not nitpicky at all; you just help a newbie to improve! I'll work on the new template and the romanisation format. And hey, sorry to keep harassing you about format too! Unorthografair 08:35, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

Welcome back![edit]

:-) —RuakhTALK 03:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


You deleted this entry, but, if I am not wrong, it was a valid one. Could you reconsider it ? --flyax 15:06, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for restoring the entry. Yes, it is the contracted form of ἰάομαι. I also found ἄλβος in a Byzantine chronography and added the quote to the entry. I have also found Ἄλβος as a proper noun in Plutarchus. It seems to me that it is a transliteration in Greek of the Latin word albus. --flyax 20:11, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Cuneiform fonts[edit]

Hi! ISO 15924 code for Cuneiform is Xsux, therefore I've created Template:Xsux to be used in {infl}, {t} etc. with sc= parameter, and listed the Fonts it supports on Template talk:Xsux. I've installed all three of them. I suggest you do the same, and see which one behaves the best with your combination of browser/OS, executing wikicode like this one:

  • 𒈾𒀜𒋫
  • 𒈾𒀜𒋫
  • 𒈾𒀜𒋫

I don't know whether modern OSes automatically choose the font that displays "something" instead of question marks and similar weird output, instead of strictly loading them as they are listed inside Template:Xsux. If the latter is the case, feel free to rearange them in the code of Template:Xsux, or add support for any other Unicode Cuneiform font you use/find on the Internet. --Ivan Štambuk 21:38, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


Sorry. My finger habits got the better of me. I've been using the Greek entries for sources of Greek script for some English etymology. In such English entries the AGr template is normal. When I inserted the term template my habits took over. Thanks for catching it. DCDuring 22:46, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I do[edit]

have an account with that name on Wikipedia, but don't remember making any edit about "snoobed". It also would have been at Wikt, anyway. I created this one. -Ionas Freeman ((burn!) 01:18, 23 January 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for the changes to polyspaston. I've never used the tones before - but I'll tell you if I need anything checking. Harris Morgan 11:08, 26 January 2008 (UTC).

Category Christian mythology[edit]

Hi Thanks for the quick action. The POV question was why I didn't just delete it as you have done, although I was sorely tempted. I just wanted to clear up that there could be a case for the category, if there were enough entries (which there aren't) such as the Holy Grail. This is NOT Biblical and is pure mythology. But the rest are entries which anyone might come across in a copy of the Bible, and so are NOT myths, unless one is pushing POV. Cheers -- Algrif 22:17, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

I would have no intention of pursuing a hot topic like this in public, for the very same reasons. However, I think you missed the point, that the only texts where Holy Grail would occur are non-Biblical, and so it really is mythical from any standpoint. Jesus, on the other hand is someone who you will find mentioned in the Bible, and so a Bible category is more correct, whether you believe or not. But I think we are pretty much in agreement on this. Cheers. -- Algrif 22:39, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

IPA for English r[edit]

Sorry to bother you. The text to this vote has been modified. Please reaffirm your support here or by resigning. DAVilla 17:24, 27 January 2008 (UTC)


Concerning your proposed L4, would this go immediately under pronunciation (i.e. before POS) or after POS with the rest of the L4's. Atelaes 19:13, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

See the vote. It specifically says "for the Pronunciation section" in the first sentence (which is intended to summarize the proposal). --EncycloPetey 19:15, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, could you help with the gloss of συν on w:Synonym? It could be improved and I'm in a discussion with another user about it. --EncycloPetey 19:17, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Old Persian[edit]

Hi, I've created {{Xpeo}} for sc= parameter of {t}, {infl} etc. to be used for Old Persian Cuneiform script. That's the official ISO 15924 name. The Hitite/Luwian/Akkadian/Sumerian cuneiform uses different Unicode range than Old Persian Cuneiform, and some fonts support only one of those, so it would be best to separate them... The {{Cuneiform}} I originally created is still used in shitload of entries that should have it replaced with {{Xsux}} (that's also official ISO 15924 name, mimicking ISO code for Sumerian - "sux", I can't wait to make {{sux-noun}} ^_^).

BTW, good job for Old Persian, I was also looking to add some important entries that ended up in Slavic languages, like for "god" (baga-) and "paradise" (raay-), since Slavs had intensive contacts with Iranian tribes :) --Ivan Štambuk 19:41, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Appendix:List of Greek words with English derivatives[edit]


You should add this to the list of ancient greek verbs. This means to/I prepare.


This verb meaning to see should also be included because it is fairly common.


Hey there. Thank you for the invite to the conversation. I hope that this issue will be resolved soon. --Dijan 23:30, 3 February 2008 (UTC)


Nice looking ety. I am interested in learning a little more about how etymologists do their job. I am curious as to what resources, preferably convenient ones, one would use to determine whether a word like ME "typographye" should be treated as coming from Latin directly vs. being imported from OF or MF. DCDuring TALK 22:47, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

I have four sources which I synthesize from. OED online, online etymology dictionary, Dictionary of Etymology by Robert Barnhart, and An Etymological Dictionary of Modern English by Ernest Weekley. For a more in-depth look at the grc section of the etymology, I also consult my two LSJ's, my BDAG, and Beekes, which can be found here. Hope that helps. Atelaes 22:55, 6 February 2008 (UTC)
Very helpful again. Thanks. DCDuring TALK 23:25, 6 February 2008 (UTC)


Hi, I forgot to tell you that I had added my personal (though extreme) preference to this. My idea is that all boxes (certainly the smaller ones) should look something like that, but with different coloured headings per languages. Maybe we need to get our designs to meet in the middle somewhere though... Yours Conrad.Irwin 00:07, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

What conjectural etymology?[edit]

What are you accusing me of? Give me an example. DCDuring TALK 18:19, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Please don't use a public forum to accuse me of something. I have abided by your suggestions AFAIK. DCDuring TALK 18:25, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It was not an accusation, but a request. You said:

  • "Putting in some etymology (even conjectural) beyond that might be useful if illuminating cognates in other modern languages are not obvious. DCDuring TALK 11:57, 7 February 2008 (UTC)"

..and I responded with:

  • "And please DCDuring, no conjecturing. If you can't find an etymology (or a certain part of an etymology) in a respected reference, leave it blank. We don't do original research here. I realize it's frustrating to have a less than perfect etymology, but we're going to have those from time to time, because some words are simply mysterious. Atelaes 18:11, 7 February 2008 (UTC)"

(both quotes edited for relevance). Although, in fairness, there is this. All of our etymologies must be sourced. Atelaes 04:37, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Should we then be removing all the unattested (*-marked) forms from existing etymologies? Our reference sources have plenty of them. I have noted the controversy about PIE, which my remark must have reminded you of. You seem not to trust me to be careful about these things, which upset me - though you have little reason to trust me. I ask you questions so that I can do a better job. I expect to make mistakes, but my ety editing is confined to formatting changes (templates, correct lemma, inflected form of ancestor term close to next descendants spelling), inserting morphological etys for recently (Victorian and later) manufactured words, and removing clearly erroneous etys, replacing them with etys based on at least 2 sources. I wish that I had access to references in some of the intermediate languages like ON, OF, MF, OHG, et al. to verify and expand with a gloss the intermediate steps. Thank you for clarifying the source of the remark that bothered me. I am sensitive to my WT reputation. DCDuring TALK 12:09, 8 February 2008 (UTC) I look again on the statements, I wonder if I misinterpreted something here. When you said, "Putting in some etymology (even conjectural)", I interpreted conjectural as "we can make a conjecture." If this is correct, then I stand by my statement that we should not include conjectures. However, if you meant "we can see what our references are conjecturing", then I have made a mistake, for which I apologize. Ultimately, all etymologies are conjectural. The key difference is that conjectures in other sources are generally made by teams of people with PhD's in historical linguistics, whereas, conjectures made here would be made by amateurs, such as myself. I am willing to trust the former, but not the latter. So, allow me to rephrase my statement. Any etymological information which can be found in a respected source is, in my opinion, usually suitable for Wiktionary (including proto langs, such as PIE). I guess when I saw the etymology for bunkum, I assumed that you had simply guessed, and written it down, instead of looking to established sources. Again, if I was mistaken on this, I apologize. In general, I think that you do a good job with etymologies, but if you were doing them in any other way than basing them off of established resources, I felt that needed to stop. If every etymology you've ever written was sourced, then this whole discussion is moot, and I apologize for the confusion. Atelaes 20:35, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
As to bunkum, as I recollect, in a forum discussion I responded to a challenge about [-um] being used by suggesting a couple of words for folks to look up - without having looked them up myself even in WT. When I looked at it I recollected it from my having visiting Asheville. I didn't edit that ety at all. I now try to make sure that I always have a couple of tabs open to Wiktionary and to other on-line sources (Perseus and online ety dict.) so I am less tempted to make such suggestions - even in the forums - without checking them. The only OR I have done in ety was in the recent discussion where I was pleased to confirm that there probably was reason to fully trust the completeness of the ety of topography. It happened to be something where the sources had been scanned and available online. I didn't insert anything into the ety we show. It actually helped me feel a little better about the quality of the work that is being done at the ref sources. I learned about the importance of relying on secondary sources at WP. Connel and SB copyvio admonishments have encouraged me to be a little less tightly bound to any one reference source, which is why I am looking for some additional (cheap) references and to finally put my hands on my old LSJ.
As I had said, I am a little touchy about my reputation here. I am a newbie, though, and do blunder from time to time (at least not with bots!). I try to clean up my messes. DCDuring TALK 20:53, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Rest assured that I think you do a good job of cleaning up your messes, I would not have voted for you if I didn't think so (and rest assured that your etymologies are a great deal better than my initial ones were, c.f. plutocracy). However, I also believe that the best way for people to improve is for others to point out when they think the person has made a mistake, so that they can fix it. Atelaes 21:03, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
After this little chat, feel free to be direct on my talk page. end of. DCDuring TALK 22:43, 8 February 2008 (UTC)


With a little help from another, I translated some Ancient Greek words at citations:demonym. Would you mind checking for accuracy, please?—msh210 23:17, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Everything looks good to me. Atelaes 04:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)
Thanks!—msh210 15:38, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

OE dictionaries[edit]

Do you know if there are any good public domain Old English dictionaries out there? A user from wikisource is attempting to expand their repertoire of lexicons. Additionally, a few of us are working on a way to write wikt entries from them (much faster than by hand). We've already got a digital copy of Lewis and Short, and if we can get a decent OCR, we may be able to do LSJ as well. Atelaes 09:11, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

There's Bosworth & Toller. It's a bit outdated now though, that's why I think Wiktionary is so valuable. Widsith 10:17, 9 February 2008 (UTC)
I listed some free stuff here. Lots of free stuff for Germanic languages on that site. --Ivan Štambuk 13:51, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

re: buck naked[edit]

Reverting the addition of the usage notes I can accept. My own edit summary included some skepticism over its appropriateness (though I have seen many other entries here where selected examples of usage were considered a good thing). Pruning might have been a better answer than wholesale purging but as I said, I didn't feel qualified to choose between them when I made the edit.

Your reversion of the alternate etymologies, however, confuses me. I can find no source confirming the original allegation of origin. The alternate theories seem no less plausible on their face. When origins can not be confirmed, it is normal in Wiktionary to include the known theories and to present them as objectively as possible. Calling that "trivia" does not seem to be in keeping with what I know of Wiktionary's standards. Rossami 13:50, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: Welcome[edit]

Hello Thank you for the welcome, and also for the tip regarding my first edits, I'll keep that in mind :)

Michae2109 13:58, 9 February 2008 (UTC)

Long etymologies[edit]

As you may have noticed, I am very concerned about the amount of space taken by items that appear above the definitions. Although etymologies rarely are offenders, rarely taking up as much space as pronunciations, there may be entries where there is a long etymology. The notorious example is serendipity, but we may get ambitious with citations and etymologies of different senses. How do you think such a thing should be handled? Would the {{rel-top|}} family of templates work? I view this as a practice case, like alternative spellings (resolvable by placing the alternatives on a horizontal, rather than a vertical, list). The more important spsce consumers are the ToC and Pronunciation. ToC would require a more technical solution if folks come to agree with my assessment of the usable-content-on-first-screen issue. A solution that worked for the few long etymologies might work for Pronunciation. DCDuring TALK 19:20, 9 February 2008 (UTC)


How do you transwiki something? Connell66 08:34, 11 February 2008 (UTC)


Thank you for your advice. But how and where can I mention that given synonym is used wider than the word itself? Alessandro 14:48, 12 February 2008 (UTC)


As is, I don't think I'm familiar enough with the policies of WT; besides, I hardly use my admin powers at WP anymore, even though I really should. In all likelihood the only thing I'd do with admin powers would be editing some templates and clean up after myself. Circeus 03:34, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

My L2 errors[edit]

Thanks for the heads up. I do review my contributions occasionally to see what gets changed, but I don't go back too far. Funny, I though autoformat automatically fixed that particular typo I've been generating. Thank you for fixing them. RJFJR 02:38, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Could you please explain more fully?[edit]

Could you please explain more fully this reversion? Geo Swan 02:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Responded on my talk page.
Cheers! Geo Swan 02:48, 15 February 2008 (UTC)


thanks for the definition, someone sent that as the title ofan e-mail. I will assume it is viral and delete it. —This unsigned comment was added by TRKritzer (talkcontribs) at 20:28, 14 February 2008.

Glad to be of service. Atelaes 02:39, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Latin robot[edit]

I'll probably lay off those inflections then. It will be a very exciting day (when/if) such a bot arrives. Harris Morgan 23:50, 15 February 2008 (UTC).

Invalid L2[edit]

There's no need to make edits like this [1], since the page is re-generated from scratch each time from the latest dump. --EncycloPetey 00:04, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

PIE etymologies[edit]

I'd really like to have some standard form for PIE etymologies, including how the PIE root is added. There are some proto-language pages around (most notably for proto-Slavic, IIRC). If there is a standard format for those, then I'd try my hand at doing a few and write up the basics for WT:ALA. But I'd like some sort of standard pattern to follow. --EncycloPetey 00:17, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

...and I'd be asking in the IRC except that (once again) it isn't working for me at all and I can't log into it. --EncycloPetey 00:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)
Tried it. Safari cannot open the connection. --EncycloPetey 00:25, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

What does that mean[edit]

What deos that mean i can get confused a lot.~~~~God Loves & You 00:54, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Greek conjugation[edit]

Hi Atelaes, I'm interested in making a bot to add conjugated Ancient Greek verb forms. What is the most common group of verbs, which all have similar conjugation? And do they have a conjugation template here in Wiktionary. I figure it shouldn't be much harder to write the code for non-Roman script, although there seems to be a lot more available forms than in other languages. Thanks in advance, --Keene 09:58, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Keene, to be honest, I would skip Ancient Greek. There are so many complications to doing Ancient Greek verbs that I think it would really be best for someone to take that on as a full time project, not a side one. Here's why. First, Ancient Greek verbs do not go on a single template, at least not very well. A while back Medellia made a template Template:grc-conj-έω, to cover the full conjugation of φιλέω. However, as far as we could tell, it only inflects φιλέω, and nothing else. I imagine a few other verbs probably follow an identical pattern; we simply don't have have entries for any of them just yet. Ancient Greek verbs have up to ten principle parts (which {{grc-verb}} lists on the inflection line), and these different parts follow different sets of rules independently of each other. If we used single templates for them, we'd have to write a hundred of them. So, what I've been doing is writing a template for each tense, which, at most, incorporates two principle parts. Additionally, some words have different forms in different periods or dialects, see μένω for example. This word actually brings up two additional important points. First, I don't have an Ionic grammar, nor an Epic one. I'm assuming they follow the same pattern, but don't know that for sure. While I do plan on finding out, the simple fact is that Ancient Greek conjugation is not completely up and running yet (I'll probably be done with Attic conjugation within the week, everything else will take longer). If you like, you can see my progress at Category:Ancient Greek conjugation templates. A third issue is one of attestation. The unique property of a dead language is that it is defined by corpus sample. Ancient Greek verbs have a LOT of forms, but for many verbs, only a few of these forms have been attested (especially for some of the dialectical forms). My plan is to, eventually, when I learn how to program myself, create a conjugation bot which will search through databases of Ancient Greek literature and only write the inflected form entries for the forms that we actually have examples of in Greek writing (and include cites for all of them, proving their existence). So, yeah, I think that about covers it. While I appreciate your desire to expand Ancient Greek, and very much believe in your overall goal of writing inflected forms, I just don't think Ancient Greek is ready for such a project yet. Atelaes 19:19, 16 February 2008 (UTC)


It is certainly postclassical. Does that go in a usage note or in a Template:context? Harris Morgan 11:32, 16 February 2008 (UTC).


How would I make an infinitive page? Like this?

  {{infl|la|verb form|head=lalala}}
  # {{inflection of|lalala#Latin|lalala|present|active|infinitive}}

That's how I made tangere but there are a variety of different ways that I have seen. Harris Morgan 22:21, 21 February 2008 (UTC).

I just spoke to EncycloPetey (he is formatting infinitives differently). There aren't many to go now anyway. Thanks for the help, Harris Morgan 00:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC).

Defination of the word Haluha :)[edit]

..with all respect Atelaes, but I cant believe you want me to think "Haluha" means "Forget" thats waaay out :)

I might think theres something old or wrong with that Tentum you refered to, because.. when I type this in Google : Define Haluha then it comes out with a suggestion: Did you mean Define Aloha? (and that it self should somehow convince you)

Theres a link here that I like maybe you would accept me to use a similar one in here:

I hope we can come to some sort of agreement that the word Haluha is often used as in a happy greeting, something I think a lot people really would understand and accept as a defination.

I can understand the way it was written by me in first place, it could relate to protologisms, but I thought people would adjust it if they were reading it like that.

Anyway thanks for letting me know.. and please if you can accept the above then let me try add it again - thanks :)

--Haluha 03:44, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

Entries with non-standard headers[edit]


Could you please help me a little bit... One of the users added a plenty of words in the Northern dialect of the Crimean Tatar language. I want to give a correspondence in the standard written Crimean Tatar for each of these words, as I have already done here. But a bot marked the page as an "Entry with non-standard header". So I have a question: how and where should I place literary correspondence for dialectal words? Alessandro 09:33, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

How about this format? --EncycloPetey 09:43, 23 February 2008 (UTC)


Why did you revert a perfectly legitimate interwiki? nl:Gebruiker:Jcwf 20:39, 23 February 2008 (UTC)

March WOTD[edit]

I haven't put them in yet, but here is the tentative list for March. --EncycloPetey 05:25, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I understand about the dates, but I haven't set dates or an order yet; I'll be doing that today. I'd have done it earlier, but had serious job stress this week. --EncycloPetey 16:51, 29 February 2008 (UTC)
And thanks for setting up March 2; I've been having battery problems with my computer and had to spend most of today offline. I seem to be having a string of bad luck this week. --EncycloPetey 04:12, 2 March 2008 (UTC)
The coming words scheduled are Mar 5 - viscous; 6 - dumbledore; 7 - malfunction; 8 - flagrant. --EncycloPetey 23:14, 2 March 2008 (UTC)


Hi, Atelaes. Why is it that sometimes, Wiktionary users get blocked when they did nothing wrong?Kitty53 19:43, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, alright. If you insist. Truthfully, the block made me mad, and I had suffered more than enough grief over the block, that's all.Kitty53 20:03, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


Looked mostly alright (as a lot of it was lifted from L&S anyway). I just added templates, macrons etc. Harris Morgan 18:17, 3 March 2008 (UTC).

ISO templates[edit]

Please do not link these templates to Wikipedia. Robert and I worked out long ago that this is a serious problem. These templates are regularly used for subst'ing, and we do not want the interwiki link to be substed into Translations sections. --EncycloPetey 04:15, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Bah, now you tell me. I'll fix the ones I've created. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:16, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
You happy now?! sheesh, alway bitching at me :) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:27, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


I would ask our Norwegian edits (we have several). The distinction is one that I don't fully understand (it's complicated), so I've usually left it for the Norwegian editors to sort out. --EncycloPetey 05:01, 4 March 2008 (UTC)


Hello, I was going through User:Robert Ullmann/L2/invalid and I noticed a bunch of entries with the L2 Tamazight. A preliminary investigation reveals that you are the primary editor for a number of these entries, and I was wondering what your thoughts on the matter are. It seems to like we should do one of two things: Probably the best option is to simply rename these entries as Berber, as this seems to be the more common name, preferred by Wikipedia and SIL. Otherwise, we could change {{ber}} to Tamazight. However, the issue is complicated a bit by the fact that, while 639-2 simply has ber, 639-3 has tzm, tjo, and tia. So, if you know which division of Berber these words belong to, we should create the language templates for them, and change the L2's accordingly. However, it appears that the language division is a currently a matter of contention, so........ Your thoughts? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 19:11, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Hiya, the problem (as I understand it) is this. "Tamazight" is the name often used now for the whole continuum of Berber languages (code ber), but it's also the name of a specific dialect spoken in Morocco (code tzm). The sources I used for the entries here were from books I bought in Morocco, and frankly I was not entirely sure in which sense they are using the term "Tamazight". It seems likely to me though that the Morocco Tamazight dialect was the basis for them, because that's being used as a standard when it's taught in Moroccan schools etc. I hope this is some help... Widsith 10:50, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. Well, tzm does indeed seem appropriate for what you've entered, and SIL titles this language as "Central Atlas Tamazight," which would seem to alleviate some of the confusion between this particular language and the Berber languages/Tamazight in general. So, I've created {{tzm}}. Please take a look, and if it is acceptable to you, I'll go through all the entries currently labeled "Tamazight" and change them to "Central Atlas Tamazight." -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)
Glad to see this one finally being sorted out. I hadn't noticed they were all from Widsith or I'd have asked him about the problem long ago. --EncycloPetey 02:23, 5 March 2008 (UTC)


It's a pidgin derived from Kalaallisut. Kralit is thought to be the source of Kalaallit. --Ptcamn 10:26, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Dharuk and Durga are different languages, as are Wembawemba and Wambaya. ISO is extremely deficient when it comes to Australian languages (because Ethnologue's focus is on living languages, and most Australian languages are extinct).
I don't have any info on Tz'utujil unfortunately, but I think it might be better to treat them as a single Tz'utujil language, despite SIL's tendency towards splitting. --Ptcamn 07:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)


Both changes are OK. Canadian French follows English rules but, elsewhere, here are normal rules:

  • a normal space before ? ! :
  • a small space before ;
  • no space before . ,
  • a space before ( and after ), but no space after ( and before )

You understood my comment well (I'm sure you know much more French that you want to admit). Please, change the page ASAP (before Robert Ullmann finds it!). Lmaltier 20:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

citizen of a state[edit]

I really must insist that this entry be deleted. The sense that the contributor is trying to put forward is a hoax. Cheers! bd2412 T 17:52, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


I have just made flagro. I can't do anything P.I.E-related so I can do nothing more than list the cognates in L&S for the etymology - three of which are Ancient Greek (phlegô, phlegethô, phlox). Please could you add them in (I can't say where accents would go). Harris Morgan 01:58, 8 March 2008 (UTC).

No - that's perfect. Thank you very much! Harris Morgan 11:48, 8 March 2008 (UTC).

So, Atelaes, can you add the PIE etymology for albus? I don't have good up-to-date PIE references and would really like this one done. The entry for albus is intended to serve as one of the Model Pages for Latin entries, and having one of those model pages with a PIE etymology set up correctly would really help. If you could also do amō, that'd be great as well. --EncycloPetey 15:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Again, I've set it up as I would like it. Anything I've removed you can reinsert without contestation. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:44, 8 March 2008 (UTC)
The etymology for albus is just what I was hoping for. Thanks! --EncycloPetey 03:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


I just added a column for the use of {{etyl}} to the table of etymology templates. I was wondered if you'd check to see if things look right. If there's a language with a code that's not listed, please fill it in. I wasn't sure whether or not to use the collective/macro- language codes, so I left them red-linked. Also I put a dagger next to two I wasn't sure about (language of table is a bit more specific than the available language code). Thanks for any help. --Bequw¢τ 21:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Most "macro"-languages shouldn't be used, but there are some that should (like Arabic). I'm sure that leaves it clear as mud. --EncycloPetey 03:18, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: Greek organic chemistry[edit]

Hey, I'd certainly love to help, though I suppose my knowledge of (modern) Greek organic chemistry terms is quite limited unfortunately. For instance, I really don't know what fluorochlorohydrocarbon is, whereas benzene or methane are a little less difficult. Anyway, I'll see what I can do for you, though I hope you don't have too high expectations. :) AndyPandy 04:03, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

On a side, I also get confused as to whether I should reply on my Talk page, or the topic initiator's talk page and as such, I seem to have replied on both just in case. The answer is still quite a mystery to me. AndyPandy 04:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)


You are very welcome. I discovered that Google has been so kind to scan in the entire Weiland dictionary (1802-1811), the first attempt to write a comprehensive modern Dutch dictionary. As it is since long in the public domain we might as well use it!. Jcwf 23:29, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Category:Tbot entries (Norwegian)[edit]

Hi there! I just came to see this category! Just wondered, can I start to check and fix the entries and then remove the tags, or is this being checked in any other way? Norwegian is my mother tounge, so I should be able to see whether it's ok or not. --EivindJ 07:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I was just wondering about the same thing. (: Michae2109 10:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Re: Template:polytonic[edit]

I removed the list of fonts because it is specified in MediaWiki:Common.css - this has two effects, firstly IE6 is using (now I check) a slightly different list of fonts DejaVu Sans, Athena, Gentium, Palatino Linotype, Arial Unicode MS, Lucida Sans Unicode, Lucida Grande, Code2000; instead of the old Template:polytonic fonts. For more modern browsers, it should iirc automagically choose the system default font for polytonic. This change also allows user customisation, and so it is possible to edit your Special:Mypage/Monobook.css to include .polytonic{ font-family: My favourite font, SecondFavourite; }, which was not doable before. For me the new default is much nicer than the font that was being forced upon me - but I can see that this could happen the other way around. Maybe it is the kind of thing that needs a wider audience, though if we were going to set a default font that should be done in the CSS file and not inline as previously. I hope I'm not too confused trying to explain this. Yours Conrad.Irwin 11:23, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

You might need to force refresh the page to get the latest CSS. If it still looks wrong, then it should be addressed. As for not being able to override the old way in user CSS, this isn't entirely true since !important could be used in the user CSS rule (but this is certainly a hack). Mike Dillon 23:04, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
Thanks Mike, but cirwin managed to set me straight on this. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:18, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


Mike Dillon has pointed out that this template (in addition to just being plain ugly :p) uses "Palatino Linotype Bold", is there a deliberate reason for this or is it fine to set the font to the same one used by {{polytonic}}? Conrad.Irwin 09:27, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

March 2008[edit]

Please do not delete content from pages, as you did here. It is considered vandalism. Please join in on the discussion in my talk page. Sesshomaru 03:12, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I still do not understand the reason for the punitive blocking. You claim that there is a policy which says "one -pedia link". Might I ask where it is? If it exists, why hasn't Nadando or anyone else informed me? And I would like to see my concern answered. Sesshomaru 05:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
Here's the thread. Can I at least make an edit to batman? It will be similar to what I did to superman. And yes, I'm asking you because I'm afraid of getting another ban for being bold. Thoughts? Sesshomaru 05:46, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


See e.g. 𐌷𐌰𐌹𐍂𐍄𐍉 (hairtō) or 𐤀𐤋𐤌𐤕 (ʾlmt) for it's example use. What do you think about the idea? Since ~99.99% users doesn't have appropriate fonts installed for these obscure languages (plus they don't want to mess around with Uniscribe), it might be nice to present an alternative display with images. --Ivan Štambuk 14:10, 13 March 2008 (UTC)


Good borning (sorry, I hab a cold). Hab you checked the edymology for bourgeois? The upcumbing words are contraption, vaunt, poignant. --EncycloPetey 16:49, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

bourgeois has been checked, but needs a rechecking (see User talk:Ivan Štambuk#ἀπό), but it looks like its correct. Contraption is done, but I have not yet gotten to vaunt or poignant. Btw, Tamazight is done as well. Hope you feel better. :-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 16:56, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Latin verb template help[edit]

That's not where I need help. The template I'm asking about is the inflection line template. --EncycloPetey 20:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)
No link to the grc verb inflection template? :( --EncycloPetey 21:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)


Thought I'd ask you about this edit to the etymology. Sounds plausible, but is it based in fact? --EncycloPetey 19:21, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Strangely enough it is correct, although the forms of the words might need some tweaking (I think the second word is modern, not ancient). I'll see what I can do. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 19:23, 15 March 2008 (UTC)
Apparently I did not look at the edit closely enough the first time. The anon's edits were bunk. The entry has been fixed. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 19:35, 15 March 2008 (UTC)


So, I assume you'll be adding those names to the Whitelist then? Approval does not always mean the names were added (and I can never remember where to add them myself). --EncycloPetey 23:06, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

They were all there. Panda10 had been on there for some time. The rest I didn't check when they were added, simply that they were added. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:12, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
So why am I still having to patrol Panda10's edits? --EncycloPetey 23:42, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Ditto for Nadando. --EncycloPetey 23:43, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
To be honest, I don't know exactly how the whole process works. It may be that you need to refresh your cache at User:Connel MacKenzie/patrolled.js. It might be that it takes some time for the system to mark the edits, or it might even be that the whitelisted users are only auto-marked by admins carrying "Rat Patrol". I don't know. I'll ask around on IRC and see if I can't get a better answer for you. Additionally, Nadando's been offered an admin nod twice now, and if they weren't so damned stubborn we wouldn't have to worry about their edits one way or the other.  :-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Ok, it looks like all admins who have the patrolling enhancements checked off on WT:PREF should auto-mark whitelisted users. However, it happens when you pull up RC, so you won't see those edits as marked unless you reload the page. Does this make sense of things? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:52, 16 March 2008 (UTC)
Maybe. :P --EncycloPetey 23:57, 16 March 2008 (UTC)


Who you callin lazy? I've been at work since 7... what have you done this morning? :P Torgo 19:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)


WOTD list change: labellum was dropped in favor of lorem ipsum, based on recent activity. --EncycloPetey 03:02, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Bah, and I thought I was done for the month. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:04, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
Well, I've done a bit with lorem ipsum, but I think it could be improved if someone who knew Latin *cough*EP*cough* could tell us a bit about the words. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:30, 18 March 2008 (UTC)
You mean, in addition to the information in the *ahem* linked Wikipedia article? It is a fragment of dolorem ipsum, which means "pain itself" (acc.). --EncycloPetey 04:00, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Yet more language sorting[edit]

1. I don't think so. 2. Yes, they should. The lack of an ISO code doesn't mean a language is not "valid" (whatever that means). --Ptcamn 14:26, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


May I ask the motivation on reverting Conrad? Ultimately, I really don't understand how the whole things works, so I'm just an observer on this whole show, but he claims that there are a number of advantages to his changes, and I've learned to trust him. You should at least let him know that you reverted him and why. If this is the result of a discussion that I'm not seeing, then feel free to ignore me, and I apologize for wasting your time. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 19:12, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

I was trying something out, I noticed since his last changes that the style of text formatted with the aforementioned template had changed somewhat. However my wife decided to pull me off the old PC before finishing my test! I'm back now, 3 Singha beers later! I'll revert my changes and see if there is a change.--Williamsayers79 21:19, 22 March 2008 (UTC)
It does appear that the purposeful differences in the style of text formatted with template {{polytonic}} and {{Grek}} have changed since Conrad made his changes. I've reverted my changes now - this was only supposed to be a quick change BTW. I'll give him a quick message on his talk page.--Williamsayers79 21:22, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

cc: Message to Conrad[edit]

{{polytonic}} and {{Grek}}[edit]

Hello Conrad, I recently did a little check of the changes to these templates since your last edits. It appears that any noticeable differences between text formatted with these templates has now disappeared. I believed that the differences were purposeful because Ancient Greek and Modern Greek are written in slightly different fonts. I'm no expert of Greek or Ancient Greek but just wanted to make sure why the changes were made.--Williamsayers79 21:26, 22 March 2008 (UTC)


I have had a request to forward you an OTRS ticket, can you hop on IRC and give me an email to forward to? - [The]DaveRoss 15:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I got atglenn to forward it. Thanks for being gone five minutes after you requested my presence. :P Do you want any response to this issue, or did you simply want to make me aware of the complaint? I'm a little suspicious of the claim of, "I was just minding my own business, and I got blocked by the vicious admin." The user wasn't blocked until after I posted the note on his talk page, I reverted his edits, and then he reverted my revert. If you want to put me up for public scolding, I'll understand. I might just be catching up to Connel. :) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:01, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Code "fy"[edit]

When ISO coded the other two Frisian languages (stq and frr), they assigned fry=fy. They did not redefine fy as a macrolanguage, just added the other two which were needed. So "fy" is still "West Frisian". (I think you assumed that fy was redefined? But it wasn't.) Robert Ullmann 13:20, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I guess I assumed that the original two letter code covered the whole thing, with the newer three letter codes being more specific, as is so often the case. Sorry about that. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:03, 25 March 2008 (UTC)
You are forgiven. But do note that none of the 2 letter codes has been re-defined as a macrolanguage or a group, that is some of the 639-2 3-letter codes. Even "zh", which was defined for "Standard Written Chinese", is still Mandarin; the problem was the omission of the other languages grouped under "Chinese" in English ... likewise, if the -1 process had been allowed to code Norwegian normally, no would have been coded for "Norwegian" (meaning Bokmål) and nno would have been added in -3, with nor added as exactly equal to no. The "fy" case shows this process in action: the primary language was coded in -1, with the other languages added in later in -3 (-2 was a stopgap, that did several things badly). But the insistent Nynorsk proponents pooched the process, demanding that nn be coded, but also that nb be coded as != no. The IETF and, later, WMF using rfc:3066 et seq, used the codes to do the right (intended standard) thing: no for Norwegian, assumed to be Bokmål, and then adding nno (or nn, since it exists) for Nynorsk. Which we could have and should have just kept doing. Likewise the zh.wikt is Mandarin, and Min Nan is zh-min-nan (following the IETF, even though we now have the -3 "nan", which should have been used) Robert Ullmann 18:28, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


Just a heads up that I've replied on my talk page. Thryduulf 04:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)


Hi, thanks for the pointers. I have some transliteration stuff from Webster's Third, would that be alright to start with? I appreciate the notification, are there any other important things I should know? Thanks. :-) KeilanaParlez 04:05, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

I just attempted to transliterate the Greek roots of Amphiuma, would you mind taking a look? If I've done it wrong, I'll just add templates to the rest and leave it to the experienced people. :) Thanks. KeilanaParlez 04:17, 28 March 2008 (UTC)
So I should move the etymology section to a L2 "Translingual" section? I looked at the templates, that's much easier than typing it out. I don't understand Greek accents, are there rules about them? It is a bit overwhelming, but I really appreciate your help. Best, KeilanaParlez 04:44, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

April WOTD[edit]

I've selected the April WOTDs. These are (in order): snipe hunt, stick in the mud, wax, apiary, retroflex, Dutch wife, matrilocal, prorogue, omphaloskepsis (or omphaloskeptic, I haven't decided which), agley, etc. The rest are listed on User talk:Dvortygirl#April WOTD. --EncycloPetey 02:04, 31 March 2008 (UTC)


Hi Atelaes,

Thanks for checking over my edits and the comments!

Any thoughts on proper umbrella terms for various word formation categories (instead of neologisms)? What I wanted to distinguish was cases where roots can be traced back a ways, versus various compounds and other formations.

Presumably there should be some category for "Regular formations" (additions of affixes, compounds, etc.); should there be an umbrella category for irregular formations like blends, idioms, coinages, etc.?

Nbarth (email) (talk) 23:36, 6 April 2008 (UTC)


C'mon! You don't like that one? :) I decided to just make it work since it was there. I don't have a problem with it going away.

What's slightly weirder is what to do with Category:grc:Greek mythology. My first inclination for parent categories of Category:Greek mythology would be to have Category:Mythology and Category:Ancient Greece (which is a child of Category:Greece). However, it gets weird when you have things like Category:grc:Ancient Greece and Category:grc:Greece. Category:grc:Greece is what makes sense from the perspective of the ancients (as much as anything makes sense since "Greece" wasn't a country back then). However, the topic of the topic categories really shouldn't change depending on which language the words are coming from, so from that perspective Category:grc:Ancient Greece makes more sense. If you have Category:grc:Ancient Greece, the question becomes whether it should have an empty Category:grc:Greece to match the parentage of the other "Ancient Greece" categories...

For now, I just left the parents of Category:Greek mythology alone since there's not really any precedent for dealing with this sort of thing. Mike Dillon 05:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually I found it quite hilarious. To be honest, I think it should probably stay, but as a maintenance category, like Category:Ancient Greek words requiring attention. It's already alerted me to one entry which needs to be cleaned up/deleted/burned at the stake/something. As for the Greece/Ancient Greece thing......that's a tough one. But, I wonder what sorts of things would go in either any language. In any case, that's a topic I feel no guilt in brushing under the rug to be dealt with another day. :-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:04, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Recent Deletion[edit]

Is there anyway I can create the entry while citing it? I must admit, I didn't figure this kind of thing wasn't allowed. SynergeticMaggot 07:08, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you. SynergeticMaggot 07:12, 8 April 2008 (UTC)


I knew there was nothing on this strange tongue and would rather not mess up categories. I did create two new ones on subah. Please check Jcwf 00:58, 14 April 2008 (UTC)


Thanks, It's really frustrating when someone goes and blocks me from making edits when I've done nothing but contribute good material here for a long time now. Thanks for reinstating the sense at smart aleck. Language Lover 22:11, 20 April 2008 (UTC)


Yes, I know. This month I've been adding three or four at a time, usually a day before the uploaded ones "run out". Between the various acitivities and obligations I have, I just haven't had the energy or a block of time to verify, cleanup, etc. a whole month's worth of WOTD. I made plans to upload the next three or so either this evening or tomorrow morning. --EncycloPetey 01:20, 21 April 2008 (UTC)


This will be WOTD on Friday, and needs a decent AGr. etymology. Could you help? --EncycloPetey 23:49, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

Done. I apologize for my lack of assistance with the WotD's lately. Once school gets out (mid May) I should be a bit more useful. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:43, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Hello Atelaes[edit]

Thanks for the welcome. I'll check those articles out, and you're right about linking to other words, and I just changed it around a bit to link to a few relevant and similar words.

I'll be trying to improve upon words which branch off from dictator, either in similarity or by root (e.g., dictator is form dictatorship).


Hmm, a username consisting of a single kasra (combining mark)? Creative, but hard to see and type ... Doesn't show in history, etc at all. Robert Ullmann 05:31, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Odd indeed. However, I see it just fine, no matter where it shows up. However, from conversations I've had, I get the impression that I'm one of a select few who can see these combining marks in isolation. If they shape up to be a good editor, we might want to try and persuade them to get a name change. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:34, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
I see it when it is really isolated, but when it follows some things, it just disappears. And what it looks like depends on font (mostly looking like any of _ or , or . ) hmm: ِ aِ doesn't appear if it is the only thing in an anchor, pretty sure that if it can't be combined, it is treated as WS in some way. Yes, you be good to encourage a different name ;-) Robert Ullmann 05:54, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Help out newbie[edit]

Atelaes, can you lend a hand to a wiktionary newbie (but long time wikipedian)? Bottom line is that there was just a HUGE edit war and extensive mediation over there over the pronunciation of "chaps" as referring to the leather garment and the "sh" versus the "ch" pronunciation. One of the parties kept insisting that the whole pronuciation and etymology discussion belonged in Wiktionary, not wiipedia. Anyway, the upshot is that I did that copy and paste under my IP and you reverted it, which is fine because I don't know what I'm doing, but I could use some help here, as we did a ton of research on this, (We have a couple dozen sources noted in a sandbox list) and as apparently some of our work belongs in wiktionary (at least, according to one user) well, what do we do now to source the pronunciation and such? Help! Montanabw 20:00, 25 April 2008 (UTC)


I should look more carefully at some of this - my colloquial greek is bad. (1) My modern Greek-Eng dictionaries do not give it (2) In my Kriaras it only seems to be a prefix and listed separately only as part of a phrase (3)However Google(el) gives 66k occurences! and (4) Πύλη does give a brief def - anyway I have gone back and corrected things. I am still not happy about the translation/nuance but is there enough time! —SaltmarshTalk 07:38, 27 April 2008 (UTC)


I've read somewhere that Mycenaean is not an ancestor of any later Ancient Greek dialect (or is it?), so it would be kind of wrong to list later forms in it's ====Descendants==== section. Also, AGr. dialects seem to have quite different reflexes of the same PIE form, and it would be great if every form ("spelling") had a note which dialect (or period) is it attested into. Paper dictionaries seem to pay attention to these kind of things, so maybe we should too. As would old Latins say: varietas delectat ^_^ So something like:

  • Ancient Greek:
    • Attic:
    • Doric:
    • Lesbian:
    • Koine:

etc. What do you think? --Ivan Štambuk 00:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

First of all, you are quite right about Mycenaean (take a look at Wiktionary talk:About Ancient Greek#Linear scripts for a bit of dicussion on this topic). Basically, Mycenaean is very similar to Old Church Slavonic (at least as you presented it to Dijan recently). Mycenaean is a very old form of Greek, but most scholars do not believe that it was an ancestor to all (any?) of them. As for the dialect issue, there are two things at stake, the lemma and the inflections (and clearly the line between the two is not very distinct). Generally what I've been doing is writing one lemma entry (generally the most common one), and then noting alternatives with their dialects under the alt spellings header (usually not taking the time to write them). As for the various inflections, the different dialects often are reasonably consistent, if they have the same lemma, however that is certainly not always the case. In some cases, if their are only a few exceptions, I might note them, but more often than not, I'm not. So....the inflections that you're seeing are generally the Attic/Koine ones. Sadly, I don't really have resources for Ionic, Doric, Aeolic, etc, so I'm not really in a position to do much in that area right now. I do intend to get some material on these this summer, but for the time-being grc is limited to Attic/Koine. However, in fairness, this is easily the most important paradigm, as most folks looking up grc words are doing so for Biblical or Platonic/Aristotelian translation. Additionally, Koine is what ended up becoming el, so it works nicely for etymological purposes as well. As for figuring out which words are attested in which dialects.....that's a bit messy. Most grc dictionaries don't put too much effort into expounding this. I do plan on writing a quote bot this summer, so search through grc corpora and citing forms and such. Once that gets running, we might be able to do more in this area, but I think for the stated earlier.....we're somewhat limited to how we've doing things so far. However, when I have the information, I'll try to be more careful to note dialectical differences. Did that rant cover what you were asking about? Please feel free to restate your case slower and in smaller words if I missed anything.  :-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:04, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Yes, thank you very much ^_^ There's a lot of room for later refinements, and sometimes the most interesting material is the one preserved in non-mainstream dialects. The most common form would suffice for now. --Ivan Štambuk 13:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

May WOTD[edit]

I've put a chronological list at User talk:Dvortygirl#May WOTD. --EncycloPetey 00:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

I'll try to get some work done on them, but don't expect too much. Finals week is rapidly approaching. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)


Happy now? [2] --EncycloPetey 03:41, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Tis a thing of beauty. You should be very proud of yourself. Just.....a few dozen thousand to go and you're all set.  :-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:59, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
Also, I think that it might be better to leave out the second one (the one which only appears in compounds). A bit of introductory research reveals that those "derived terms" might not be compounds, but regular words in their own right. The fact that they share oleo is simply coincidence (well, probably not pure coincidence, it's probably a result of Latin sound change rules, and perhaps some were modeled on others). I'll look into it more fully later. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:07, 30 April 2008 (UTC)
It's an unusual situation, to be sure, but the unattested word does get an entry in L&S, so it's probably worth having something here, at least to say it's unattested as an independent word and to link the derivations. --EncycloPetey 13:10, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

It's means its[edit]

I've considered your comments in "peruse". Working from what was said by you and by Coruscater, I might infer that there would be no objection to changing the Wiktionary entries for "it's" and "its", so that they are synonymous.

The situations are nearly identical. "Peruse" does not mean skim, but its used that way, and can easily be understood by an English speaker. Equally, text, when reading "its", but meaning "it's" can easily be understood (as shown in the last sentence). 07:54, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Libyan Arabic and other varaieties[edit]

Thanks for your post. While I agree with you that regional varieties should go under the standard Arabic entry whenever possible, I am afraid this strategy won't do for a good deal of regional varieties. Many words exist only in the vernaculars. For example the entry بيباص ,which I added recently exists only in Libyan Arabic. Anyway, I will coordinate with Stephen G. Brown.--Hakeem.gadi 07:31, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

strange friends[edit]

That's weird but thanks for taking care of it. ArielGlenn 14:48, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Be my guest[edit]

Feel free to modify my subpage. I'm a noob here, obviously, it's helpful. There's less potential for "touchiness" with that than with the article in many ways.

Anyway, go for it! Alastair Haines 03:28, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it is extremely important that we have a source (other than your good self) that says virgo as intacta was redundant at some point. Perhaps I'm speaking as an encyclopedist here. I need a source that says latest attestation in sense of sexually intact is so and so in such and such. It's a very common word, there's a lot of data, someone must have covered this. Can I dare you? You give me a date after which I will not be able to find virgo in this sence in the primary sources. Prima facie, I find it difficult to imagine the word in this sense has ever gone out of usage, certainly not after theotokos debates. Virgin as adequate description of the mother of Jesus, especially with the perpetual virginity doctrine, is going to have heavily influenced usage, I would imagine.
In the absence of such a source, I'm afraid I have to take L&S word that the primary meaning of virgo is the literal meaning they mark as such and list first, backed by citations. That is not what the entry said when I looked at it today, nor what you are proposing. Sorry to be so stubborn, but it just doesn't fit with the evidence of Old French or Middle English either. Alastair Haines 03:58, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm not quite following you. "Virgo" as "intacta"? As far as I can tell, "intacta" means intact, untouched, virgin. It would seem to me that we've got all those covered. If you're specifically talking about sexually intact, that's exactly what "virgin" means. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:08, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
Regarding Hebrew. I monitor my Wikipedia page (same name as here -- my real name). Messages there are much more likely to get answered. Also, at 'pedia I'm on the fringe of a group that would likely have some Hebraicists, but has many MH speakers who could be fast and motivated but corrupt entries inadvertently. As a long term project though, I may be willing to knock up entries for all words in the Song of Songs.
I'm more comfortable with Koine but, like Latin, there are many people capable in the language. I'm slowly picking up Sumerian and Old Babylonian (and a little Egyptian), but for obvious typographical reasons, these are hard to document at Wiki.
With the issues to hand, I'm extremely keen to learn Wiktionary mark-up, lexicography is cool and I want in. Re virgo, yes, I concur, virgo intacta is resumptive, emphatic or whatever, but probably also disambiguation, given wide currency of synechdotal use (and perhaps, we might imagine, "courtesy" uses virgo, since social expectation and reality never coincide do they).
I'll be logging in here from time to time, now I know there is some life to be found! Best Alastair Haines 08:37, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
PS λάλει ἐμοί is so much friendlier than talk. :) Alastair Haines 08:46, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for the help. Evrik 18:45, 2 May 2008 (UTC)


Hey Atelaes, how much would it really annoy you if I removed the "" from {{grc-ipa}}? Although I dislike the appearance it gives intensely, as you are the one who is more likely to see them I'd listen to your opinion. Conrad.Irwin 19:12, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

κοινά and χόρτος[edit]

I saw your message and your entries for κοινά and χόρτος. It seems to me more likely to assume that what Hesychius is referring to is a place, a communal piece of land where herders grazed their animals. Of course this is nothing more than an assumption. --flyax 21:19, 3 May 2008 (UTC)


It was necessary to move ἀήρ from Greek to Ancient Greek, I have searched/failed to find a good example of Ancient Greek in a translations section. Are we now putting it at the top, amongst the As, or below with Greek but indented along with a separate indent for 'Modern'. I am not sure of the current guidance, please can you help. cheers —Saltmarshαπάντηση 14:43, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

  • Greek: (word)
    • Ancient Greek: (word)

is probably best, we don't use "Modern Greek" as a language name; both of these lines use a standard name. And AF will sort them properly (:-) Robert Ullmann 14:46, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

To be honest, while I had originally agreed to the ordering that Robert proposes, I'm becoming more convinced that Ancient Greek should actually go with the A's. Interestingly enough, Autoformat allowed it to stay with the A's, as you had originally placed it. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 16:52, 6 May 2008 (UTC)
I agree - I think the other languages which follow Robert's suggestion are one language two alphabets (Serbian) or 2 dialects(Apache) - Whereas Old English is to be found amongst the Os. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 04:49, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Apologies not required[edit]

Not to worry. I expect to make mistakes and to find them in others. That's part of the fallibilist creed. The only really bad mistake is excessive stubborness. DCDuring TALK 20:03, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

heads up[edit]

You're being talked about at Talk:못하다. Conrad.Irwin 00:54, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I had already noticed, but thanks for the heads up (and the response). I guess I didn't really have anything to say, as I figured my actions would speak for themselves to most editors. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:57, 8 May 2008 (UTC)

Latin cleanup[edit]

Sometimes the definition is unintentionally funny. See what I found at panem. It makes for an interesting mental picture. --EncycloPetey 02:21, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't stand for accusations from a refined grain product such as yourself! -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:23, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

In case you missed it, Mutante now has the odd scripts sorted into proper pages like the other languages. [3]  :-) --EncycloPetey 21:23, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the tip. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:11, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the compliment[edit]

Hi, Atelaes,

Thanks for your nice words here. In case you're curious, they's a she. :-D (Truth is, I've been admiring your work for a while, and this seemed like a decent excuse to come say hi.)

Winter (Username:Snakesteuben 02:37, 11 May 2008 (UTC))

It's a pleasure to finally be formally introduced. Truth be told, your entry to en wikt was quite fortuitous, as the fy issue was a rather large one which I was at a loss as to how to solve. I hope you'll stick around for awhile, as West Frisian is such a close relative to English, that its expansion can only be beneficial for our English entries and their etymologies (not to mention the intrinsic merit of the language itself), similarly to Ancient Greek (which has its own merits, but is additionally useful for an English dictionary). -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:10, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Trouble with boilerplating[edit]

Thanks for pointing that out - I shall have to check back! —Saltmarshαπάντηση 06:57, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

attention and CJKV entries[edit]

Would be good to put (e.g.) {ja-attention} on any entry you're adding {infl} to. Robert Ullmann 18:46, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, don't worry about existing ones; someday we will get a new XML dump and I will run and again ;-) Robert Ullmann 18:49, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Well, you know what I was thinking? I was thinking we should add a function to {{infl}}, so that it drops any word from a certain language which uses it into "Category:XXXX words using infl" or something. That way, every language which has their own set of POS templates (like ja, en, grc, etc.) can go through and give their entries a proper cleanup. And if someone comes along with a serious passion for...say....Assamese, and decided to create a bunch of POS templates specific for Assamese, they could add as to the list and they'd all just pop up. What do you think? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:56, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I've been thinking along those lines. The issue is that "they" thoroughly broke #ifexist, by adding the referring page to the links table (not desired behavior, nor the way it used to work). The explanation was that that pages could be updated if the target is created (deleted). But that doesn't happen. Arrgh! (E.g. they will not "just pop up".) So we have the worst of both. As you say, we could always add it to a (presumably hidden) cat. But lots of languages and POS within languages never will need it. (I was also thinking of maybe #ifexist:Template:(lang)-(POS) or some such; same problem.) I am thinking about it ... BTW: I haven't been on IRC because the ISP did some s/w change; I can now consistently crash their proxy by the simple expedient of launching chatzilla ;-) Robert Ullmann 19:19, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
No worries, I haven't been on much myself, as I end up wasting too much time that should be spent doing schoolwork. Could we not simply do it manually? Such as, if 1=en|ja|grc, [[:Category {{{1}}} words using infl]]? That way, we can control which languages have this service done for them and which don't. As you say, some languages don't have their own language specific POS templates (although, I hope that, eventually, they all will). Also, some languages simply don't have anyone who is willing to clean them up at the moment, and so creating such a category would be futile. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:05, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Ancient Greek attention[edit]

Do you think I might be abusing {{attention|grc}} by using it on every entry that lacks pronunciation/inflection templates (i.e. every single one I copy/paste from project Perseus ^_^)? I have a long list of Greek words to add in my notes, and there are much worse formatted entries out there that need attention.. --Ivan Štambuk 22:24, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

No, that sounds fine by me (you may or may not have noticed, but I'm kind of a spaz and want every grc entry formatted to my specifications :-)). When you say there are entries in more need of attention, are you referring to the verbs? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:26, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Also, if there's a word you want cleaned up especially quickly (as I get the feeling that attention category is going to get larger), feel free to drop a note on my talk page or on the grc requested articles page. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:33, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
I'm referring to everything, nouns/adjectives/verbs...especially in the cases like δεικνύω (deiknúō) when I get confused ^_^ There are cases just like this in Sanskrit: the same verbal root can take multiple conjugation classes (e.g. thematic and athematic, apparently the distinction between those was not so distinct in PIE); I usually lemmatize on the form most dictionary cite..
Also translating the verb meanings in the definition lines into 1st person singular..I sometimes forget, sorry. So I'll continue to use {{attention}} and leave you to handle all the glorious details..--Ivan Štambuk 22:44, 13 May 2008 (UTC)
Sounds good. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:45, 13 May 2008 (UTC)


Hi Atelaes. I like definitions to be as succinct as possible too. Unfortunately the international (and internationally-accepted) body governing the nomenclature of cultivated plants has ultimate authority in these matters and also has a formal definition for cultivar derived by progressive discussion over 40 years within the international taxonomic community. I work in this business and although the previous definition was short and succinct it was also inaccurate. If Wikipedia overrides the officially accepted international definition then the "system is not working". Granitethighs 22:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)


Why not a løvely trip to Sweden this year? --EncycloPetey 04:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC) Mynd you, møøse bites Kan be pretti nasti.

What do you want from me! I've got two finals tomorrow (and have you seen Category:Ancient Greek words needing attention lately?!?!) I haven't forgotten about categorizing. I'll get to it after this weekend. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Whoa! Sounds like test stress. Just some κωμῳδία (kōmōidía) intended. --EncycloPetey 04:26, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
I know. Just screwing with you. And you didn't even try and make an edit while my block lasted, did you? Bah, my efforts on this project are wasted. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:41, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
Aw, don't denigrate yourself like that. The way you burned through cleanup on the Yiddish and Hebrew, I assumed your semester was already over. And of course I only suggested you do Swedish because (a) I don't feel comfortable myself, and (2) I would expect and trust you to do a good job with it. There aren't many people here who can work confindently in multple languages and do a quality job of cleanup in a language they may not formally know (Stephen and Semper come to mind). --EncycloPetey 13:06, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

classical lemmata[edit]

Remember, Ancient Greek and Latin lemmata of verbs are the indicative 1st singular, not infinitive. *wags finger* -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

  • The problem is I don't usually know what the indicative 1st person singular is, since all my reference books use infinitives as lemmata. All right, I can usually work it out for Latin, but I just don't know enough Greek. So it's not so much having infinitives over 1st-person forms, as whether you'd rather have infinitives or nothing. Widsith 09:23, 16 May 2008 (UTC)
    Well, you could use the on-line searchable Liddell-Scott-Jones Lexicon of Classical Greek. --EncycloPetey 13:09, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

cultivar again[edit]

The International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants can be accessed from the International Society for Horticultural Science web site at I could cite the exact page in the definition in Wiktionary. Try Granitethighs 00:15, 16 May 2008 (UTC) Retrieved from "" Let me know what you decide. Granitethighs 23:40, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll add those template things after the POS[edit]

Well, the title says it all. Sorry for not knowing that. I should probably take a closer look at the wiki code before playing with things. Macai 07:31, 19 May 2008 (UTC)


I'm a big boy. I can take it. I don't think everything that I say will turn out to be good, true, and beautiful, just a higher percentage than anybody else. ;-}) DCDuring TALK 00:09, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm glad to hear it.  :-) -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:22, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


Hey, thanks a lot for that comment about doited, man! Macai 08:41, 20 May 2008 (UTC)


I fixed the entry. The word is indeed West Frisian. Gender is indeed neuter.

Tip: If you see a "Frisian" word that's the same as the Dutch word, you can safely assume it's West Frisian; and almost always (if not always--I can think of no counterexample) the gender will be the same as the Dutch, too. Except of course masculine or feminine will map to common gender; neuter is still neuter. The Sealterfrysk word is Bloud (they capitalise nouns like German), also neuter. (I don't know the Noardfrysk word off the top of my head but I'd recognise it. It's similar, starts with a b, and I think it ends with a dj.) Winter (Username:Snakesteuben 11:52, 20 May 2008 (UTC))


I reverted your reverting me. The least you could have done was to provide a reason for your edit. __meco 16:56, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

grc influx[edit]

209 entries inside Category:Ancient Greek words needing attention should keep you busy for some time ^_^ I may sporadically generate more, as I finish up the the redlinked Sanskrit & Latin entries from that PIE root list. --Ivan Štambuk 13:28, 21 May 2008 (UTC)

Homeric laughter[edit]

Hiya - I've included the Greek here, but probably cited it in form. You may want to have a look. (By the way, OE mirige is in now - thanks). Widsith 10:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)


Hey, thanks for all these entries. However, there is a minor issue of naming. Wikipedia uses Sranan Tongo, SIL uses the same name, and the Ethnologue uses simply Sranan. Our template, {{srn}} is currently set up to expect Sranan. Personally, I really don't care which one we use, but I think we should pick between one of the preceding two, and switch the entries to it. Your thoughts? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 08:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

I shall ask someone who has lived in Paramaribo for 6 years and is more involved with these issues. Reply will follow soon. Mallerd 09:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)
The other user has said that it's best to use Sranan Tongo. What will happen now to the Sranantongo entries? Mallerd 10:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Yucatán Maya[edit]

I would actually prefer Yucatec Maya, which is the name used on Wikipedia, but Yucatán Maya is used by SIL. --Ptcamn 00:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: Category:Articles which need Sogdian script[edit]

This is actually the first time I've heard of Sogdian being written in Syriac. As far as I know, Sogdian has its own script ultimately deriving from the Aramaic script (like Syriac) possibly via Syriac, so I don't know if Sogdian and Syriac are sister scripts or if Sogdian is the child of Syriac. I'm not too sure about the unicode characters either. There are a fair number of errors/annoyances with the Syriac unicode script to begin with (like the standard font size being two times too small, certain dots not working where they should, etc.), so I wouldn't be surprised if some Sogdian characters got mixed up in the Syriac section. I wouldn't be too hasty to merge the two categories together simply because, as of right now, the two scripts seem to be different. --334a 03:51, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Reason for my block?[edit]

Hello, this is the anon you warninglessly blocked for 1. saying that admins were made to piss people off and 2. calling one a jackass in an edit summary. Was this "trolling" for blatant vandalism or for the persistent changing of the pron definition? I also think that "Enjoy your block" would anger a troll and cause most to react angrily to the blocker. 00:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)


If you see {dat} in your travels (and you will ;-) fix it to {dative} at the same time?

I've been sick, but answered a little bit on my talk. Robert Ullmann 05:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)


Hey Atelaes, on Wikipedia I was warned for vandalism. Some guy was reverting a question of mine without explanation and when I asked for one he reverted my question without an answer. He did it one more time then I got angry and then he %$%#@ warned me for vandalism! How much power abuse can you get in a few minutes? Do you know if there is anything I can do to block this user or something for this behaviour? Mallerd 00:12, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: immature[edit]

You're welcome. And I appreciate your linking the new translation I added. I always, always ALWAYS keep forgetting to link translations I add! They always remind editors that new words are ready to be created! Right? Thank you, Atelaes!Kitty53 00:30, 31 May 2008 (UTC)


My Dearest Atelaes,

I am deeply sorry for the trouble my notion caused you and Conrad. I had no idea it would be so much trouble. I was simpley expressing my frustration about having mine and my friends words that we thought long and hard about erased in not even 3 minutes. It infurieated me, and I couldn't help myself of over reacting. Again I say I am sorry from the bottom of my heart and do hope you forgive me. And if you would be so kind as to leave me a comment back letting me know you got this apology, that would be great. —This unsigned comment was added by PapaSmerf (talkcontribs) at 19:46, 30 May 2008.


Their edits look suspiciously like a bot (that and they didn't reply)- does Autoformat reorder translations or do they all have to be rolled back? Nadando 06:57, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if AF does it or not, but I'm guessing not. I've begun rollbacking. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:58, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
Cool, I think we got 'em all. Thanks for the help. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 07:05, 1 June 2008 (UTC)
AF sorts translations (unless there is a format error, and that gets tagged) if {trans-top} is used, not otherwise. But this is about pronunciations, right? Looks bot-like, but can't be entirely? And not responsive ... very odd. Oh, and good morning! Robert Ullmann 07:38, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

June WOTD[edit]

The first 8 are in for June, and some of these have obvious Greek origins, such as Ucalegon and iota. --EncycloPetey 23:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. Wow, that was easy. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:50, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

some Ancient Greek characters[edit]

See User:Robert Ullmann/t16, 784 entries listed. Robert Ullmann 05:30, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Oofta, that's going to take me awhile. Thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:22, 2 June 2008 (UTC)


I'm confused. The 'normal' noun declensions seem to be at the side e.g. nefnifall, and in my opinion it looks neater than putting them underneath. This doesn't mean I won't put them underneath if that's the rules. Is it something you do with pronouns? And the proper name for these particular Icelandic pronouns is Honourific pronouns. Gherkinmad 20:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the information, but I'm still confused because it's only in the code that I'm putting it at the top, in the proper version it does appear on the right side next to the entry. I'm not clear on whether it's in the code or in the proper version that you can't put the table at the top. I do see the absurdity of putting the declension table before the entry, but if it's only in the code does it really matter? Gherkinmad 19:06, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Armenian Roots[edit]

Thanks for the greeting buddy. It's nice to know someone appreciates what I'm doin here. I'll definitely take a look at those roots and put in some Armenian letters for it when I can. I work full time and take classes so it may take some time, but I'll definitely try and do some work on it.

- KaraiBorinquen


I came across this term as a definition for a grc word, and we don't seem to have it. Apparently, it means a ransom paid by a murderer to the kinsman of the slain. However, I don't have enough knowledge of the term to write a decent entry, and I figured it just might be something right up your alley. If you don't feel like it, it's not a big deal, as we do have geld. Thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:53, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

We have it in the form wergeld. I'm on holiday right now, but when I get back I'll have a look at some of these alternative spellings. Widsith 12:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)


Yes, it's true that joke blocks sometimes happen, and there's nothing wrong with that, but according to the summary, it was clearly not a joke block. I was just concerned about what said "vandalism" was. Teh Rote 18:59, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

grc etymologies[edit]

Hi Atelaes,

Do you keep an eye on entries tagged with {{attention|grc}}? If so, are you O.K. with my so tagging entries for words and word-parts like -oma that have {{rfe}} and are clearly of Ancient Greek origin?

(Feel free to say no; I just don't know if that sort of task interests you at all.)

Thanks in advance!

RuakhTALK 22:38, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

The answer to both is yes; please feel free to tag any entry which involves Ancient Greek and which you think I could improve. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:51, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
One caveat to that. I have this thing about suffixes, where I believe that suffixes must be productive to have an entry. I'll have to do some further research on -oma, but expect it to be brandishing a shiny new rfd/v in the future. So, if you care about a suffix and think its productivity is suspect, you may not want me to look at it. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:05, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Thai etymologies[edit]

Thank you very much. Your previous comment on my page, apparently, had helped me a whole lot. To answer your question, it's quite hard to explain, for adjective words are rarely used in Thai. And yes, the Thai words are actually nouns. Now that you've told me, I will change happiness to joy;blithe to delight. How's that?User:Alifshinobi talk 11:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Thank you again for your help. :) --Alif 04:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Archiving & reversion[edit]

Hi Atelaes,

I’ve replied to your comments at User talk:Nbarth#Constant archiving.

Nbarth (email) (talk) 03:55, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Same as Sranantongo[edit]

Hey, I have a new issue. English Wikipedia and Wiktionary both seem to use Papiamento over Papiamentu. The {{infl}} however, classifies all words as Papiamentu. Can you fix it? Thank you Mallerd 15:15, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, Wiktionary treats the two equally, and Wikipedia, while admittedly using Papiamento for its article title, uses both terms fairly evenly. SIL uses Papamiento, but the Ethnologue uses Papiamentu. So, to be honest, I think some justification would be needed to make this switch. Do you have any? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:06, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
No, because there is none. I thought it had to be changed because of the Wikipedia titles, so no problems. Danki Mallerd 18:40, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


Could you give this word an etymology? Wikipedia gives an etymology in its article Labrys, but I don't really understand it or know how to format it. Thanks. Nadando 18:20, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:29, 24 June 2008 (UTC)


I've just received a request to change this to Papiamento, and then I noticed that it had spent much of its life in such a condition, only to be changed to Papiamentu by you. As far as I can see, both names are certainly in use, and I find no evidence that either is more common or better in any way. I was just wondering if there was some rationale behind your change. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:03, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

Both names are valid, and each also refers to one of the major dialects in the language. My research determined the language is originally a Portuguese creole, and the Dialect that sounds more like Portuguese is called Papiamentu, the Spanish-like dialect is Papiamento. Since the language is believed to be Portuguese-derived, I favored the Portuguese-related name. Further, while both names are used on the principal page at the pap WP, Papiamentu is the name used for this language on their article about writing and the alphabet [4]. --EncycloPetey 04:29, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Papiamentu is also the spelling used on Meta [5]. --EncycloPetey 05:32, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

a little help thren[edit]

I created the help me template so that users can have almost instant solution to their questions. But, if you guys dont want it, watever. Thats fine by me, but can i still mark it in my achievements log? Anyway, is there any projects, new page patrols, recent change patrols, or just patrols i can join? Because i love fighting vandalism. Talk to me,


Oh, and also, i wanted to just tell you that i love creating templates. You never know, you might see a couple of my better ones being used by other people.



I go to my preferences, and under edits it says All in order!. what does that mean?


-ώδης -ῶδες[edit]

Hello! You must have noticed my confusion about δηλητηριώδης. The problem is with the genitive plural. Well, the template is correct and my grammar textbook says that the adjectives in -ώδης, -ῶδες follow the paradigm of πλήρης which has a genitive πλήρων. However, all the examples I was able to find in TLG have -ωδῶν (εὐωδῶν, δυσωδῶν, δηλητηριωδῶν) and this is definitely the modern Greek inflection too. Any ideas? --flyax 21:23, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm away from all my materials right now, but I'll try and look into it when I get a chance. But yes, we would definitely follow texts over grammars. ;-) In any case, if those forms exist, the template should note them, even if the form which it currently notes also exists. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:49, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

You should protect this page[edit]

To protect this page, Template:ar-verb-fa3ala, would be a wise choice, simply considering the sensitivity of that template. I have looked at it, and it is very complicated. I advise that it be protected not only because of vandals but also experimenting users. Cheers,


Oh, and also. You really should consider taking a break. You have been a very good and helpful wiktionarian. Relax a little. Click the link, and just relax for a while.

Oh, and i just found something. If my help me templates werent useful, then what the hell is this? They banned my help me templates which were revolutionary, yet they allowed this?!. What the heck is going on around here???


I dont have to be an admin, but im going for it. Another 900 edits will make me eligable. Shouldnt take too long, i got 100 edits in about less than 2 days, so. But yeah, i cant wait until i become an admin. You should nominate me when i have at least 1000 edits.




Is there an award for contributing 200+ times in only 3 days? Becaus ei would need it if there was. Havent even been here 3 days yet. Wow im a fast editor.

I hath been Enlightened. Thank you.


Would you be willing to take a look at δύο, δεύτερος, and δίς and critique? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:02, 28 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a serious problem with putting the adverbial and ordinal forms on the inflection line of a cardinal number entry (and for similar use on the ordinal entry, etc.). The inflection line os for inflected forms only. Consider that in English we have two, twice, and second. Clearly the ordinal is not an inflection of either of the other two, and the grammatical function of the adverbial is completely different from either of the other two.
I've been developing an alternative approach to this, for which I finally did the coding (I already had worked out extensive design on paper). Take a look at novem to see it in action, and refer to the documentation for additional info. The header will allow linking to an appendix or glossary (if one exists), the top portion displays symbolic form of the number, and links to the previous and following numbers (or appears blank if there is no previous / following). The bottom portion links to the ordinal and adverbial, but this section collapses if that information is not used (in case it not exist in the language). And the bottom line links to the article on the appropriate WP. It doesn't have the extra support for display of non-Latin charaters (because I don't know how to do that), and I don't know whether that can be easily incorporated, but a non-Latin script version or script-specific version could be built if needed. --EncycloPetey 22:07, 28 June 2008 (UTC)
With a little additional work, I think I've got the main body of the template now accepting sc=, so the words, at least, should display correctly if there's an sc= code for the language. --EncycloPetey 04:03, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

And now I've started Appendix:Latin cardinal numerals. It fully explains the grammar of three whole numerals! :P --EncycloPetey 02:04, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and I think {{cardinalbox}} is ready for use. Although the physical appearance may yet get a tidying up, I don't expect the parameters to change anymore. --EncycloPetey 02:06, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
It should be used right after the language header, and not in the Inflection section. It's navigation to other entries, not information about how the entry inflects. --EncycloPetey 02:33, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
*sigh* You just have to make more work for me, don't you? :P First of all, the inflection line is not just for inflection. We put transliterations and gender in there, don't we? Yeah, riddle me that Mr. Smartypants. However, instead of endlessly arguing the most basic of Wiktionary formatting with you......I decided I'd just incorporate {{cardinalbox}} into {{grc-num}}. I'd have to insert another parameter/entry and I'd be set (instead of having to completely redo all the entries I've just redone). However, your template doesn't play nice with my template (see τέσσαρες (téssares)). I've filed a bug report, and if we can figure out a solution, then that'll definitely be the approach I'll use. If not, then I suppose I'll just have to go through and reformat all my bastard. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:38, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
You want to add a box on the inflection line? Try placing it before the other template, then, on the previous line... like this... --EncycloPetey 02:41, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
If you don't like the Inflection table dropping down, there are two solutions. Either tweak the Greek inflection templates the way we did for Translations tables, so that they are narrower when an image or other right-floating object is present. Or else, fill out the entry with example sentences, quotations, usage notes, etc. :) --EncycloPetey 02:43, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Ha ha, very funny. On further consideration, I've realized that many grc numerals use the full adjectival inflection box, which is full-screen, so it wouldn't work. So, I'll just have to go through all my entries and change them (cursing your name the whole time). You still haven't replied to my query about gender and transliteration. The water a bit too hot for you, huh? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:54, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
We don't usually mark gender only for nouns in Translations table entries. And besides, gender is variable in Greek numerals, isn't it? Giving the gender in the box could mislead the casual user into thinking the word has one gender. As for transliterations, I have considered it. The problem is that (1) each transliteration would need to be included, (2) the box isn't wide enough for longer entries and their transliteration. You'd get horrible wrapping issues in the box text; imaging the transliteration for a word appearing on the following line and all the way to the left size of the box. I spent some time playing around with ways to correct this, but they all turn out to be far more complicated than I'd bargained for. To make transliterations even potentially feasible would mean scrapping the current design and learning the <div> method instead of using wikitables, because I'd have to have optional table rows... well, I won't bore you with the details. It just started getting very nasty, very quickly, when I tried doing that. --EncycloPetey 03:14, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
No, no, you missed my point. I wasn't asking why cardinalbox doesn't include gender or transliteration. I was pointing out that inflection lines regularly do, even thought they aren't inflectional information, which you claimed to be the only appropriate info for the inflection line. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:18, 30 June 2008 (UTC)
Gotcha. But that information is relevant for interpreting inflections. Sorry I'm slow to respond today, but I'm learning new parser functions so that I can create an inflection template for Latin cardinal numerals. I'm going to try using #switch for the first time on my own. --EncycloPetey 03:51, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

{{cardinalbox}} addendum: I've adjusted the template so that it will display the symbol for the preceding or following numeral without requiring a link. See example #1 & #2 on the template talk page for clarification. --EncycloPetey 21:25, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Reply on my talk page please, ASAP[edit]

I am making an anti vandalism bot that notifies me every time a page is edited or created, along with the details, and asks if i want to revert the edit. I havent a clue what to save the file as (.what?), and im making it on my notepad. Then, i also have no clue what type of page to bring the file up on the wiktionary (.what?), then i wanted you to see the scripts for it before i run it, to help me check for errors. Reply on my talk page. Please help me out here, i cant download Python so i have to make it using notepad, and i just need a little help, since my mom hasnt unblocked the Python website yet nor any websites other than wiipedia that will help me with this. I need the help from a user who has made a bot. Please help ASAP, The7DeadlySins 02:49, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

And also, if you wish to view the source, its this page Please help. The7DeadlySins 03:25, 29 June 2008 (UTC)