Module talk:ja-see

See also: Module talk:ja-see/old

re: い

Conflicted feelings. I don't entirely like the merging of etymology sections (although it is consistent with the pre-{{ja-see}} status quo and with {{ja-see-kango}}). 03:51, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

(I still would prefer lemmatizing at the kana form. Maybe that's why. —Suzukaze-c◇◇ 04:12, 20 March 2020 (UTC)) --Nyarukoseijin (talk) 05:26, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Maybe {{subst:ja-see|井|亥|堰|居|寝|胆|猪|藺|五|五十|斎|汝|e=5}} →

===Etymology 5===

====Noun====
{{ja-noun|hhira=ゐ}}

# {{ja-def|井}} [[well]] {{q|water source}}

====Proper noun====
{{ja-pos|proper}}

# {{ja-def|井}} {{surname|ja}}

===Etymology 6===

====Proper noun====
{{ja-pos|proper|hhira=ゐ}}

# {{ja-def|亥}} the {{w|Pig (zodiac)|Boar}}, the twelfth of the twelve {{w|Earthly Branches}}

...

--Nyarukoseijin (talk) 05:26, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

Preprocess

@Nyarukoseijin Is it possible to avoid preprocess() header templates under a different title? This may help reduce the risk of triggering lua errors. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 04:10, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

@Huhu9001: It should be possible by copying the relevant logic from Module:ja-headword to Module:ja-see. But it will make maintenance harder. I wonder if it is possible to have a "lite" mode of Module:ja-headword to generate the output in a machine-readable format (e.g. Lua tables) rather than a human-readable format (HTML output). --Nyarukoseijin (talk) 05:26, 20 March 2020 (UTC)

@Nyarukoseijin: I don't think a lua table version would help. It may make the parsing easier but won't stop errors from happening, since even a "lite" version can not avoid dealing with the title. I think the best way is to manually add a "pagename|=" parameter. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 02:44, 26 March 2020 (UTC)

@Huhu9001: Sorry, I misunderstood your first post. I found only one case in which |pagename= is needed: when redirecting kanji to kana (e.g. 貴方 → あなた, the headword templates on the kana entry may contain no kana, but when you expand it from the kanji entry you must add one. Both the old and the new versions of {{ja-see}} handle that. Is there any more such cases?

If you dislike such workaround hacks, the best way is to adopt the Chinese entry layout: make no-argument calls like "{{ja-noun}}", "{{ja-verb}}", etc. always work (producing the title in boldface only). --Nyarukoseijin (talk) 03:29, 4 April 2020 (UTC)

@Nyarukoseijin: A recent example is 合い縁奇縁. If you remove the |head= parameter in page 合縁奇縁, an invisible error will occur in page 合い縁奇縁. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 06:41, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

@Huhu9001: Headword templates should not contain such % signs in the first place. Such information can be deduced from the kanjitab on the same entry, so why the extra effort? --Nyarukoseijin (talk) 08:12, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Hahaha, yes, very funny. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 20:09, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Wording and layout problems

There are a couple problems with how {{ja-see}} outputs the footer material, the text starting with "(This term,...".

If the template doesn't fetch any content and "the following term is uncreated", then the footer appears in a straightforward and problem-free manner. Examples from な as of 2021-06-01:

For pronunciation and definitions of な – see 無. (This term, な, is an alternative spelling of the above terms.)

If the template does fetch content, the footer appears a bit wonky.

For pronunciation and definitions of な – see the following entry.

【汝】J [pronoun] (archaic, obsolete) second-person singular pronoun: you, thou Alternative spelling 己

(This term, な, is an alternative spelling of the above term. For a list of all kanji read as な, not just those used in Japanese terms, see Category:Japanese kanji read as な.)

• The parenthetical comment starts on the line that is normal-sized, and ends on the following line that is smaller. This looks weird.
• "Japanese kanji", by definition, are Japanese. Any kanji read with a kana pronunciation is also Japanese. The linked category doesn't include anything from Chinese, or Korean, or any other language. Consequently, the text "not just those used in Japanese terms" seems very wrong here.

Could someone with Lua proficiency have a look into fixing these issues? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:43, 1 June 2021 (UTC)

I deleted the "not just those used in Japanese terms" part. If you want to change it further, it is located at mod:ja-see#L-469. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 11:23, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

kyujitai

@H2NCH2COOH {{ja-gv}}? —Suzukaze-c (talk) 05:15, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for informing me about its existence! I edited the documentation of {{ja-see}} and added links to this template so that no one will be confused about it anymore. --H₂NCH₂COOH (Talk) 05:28, 6 July 2021 (UTC)

ja-see from katakana spellings not working?

@Suzukaze-c, you seem to be most up-to-date on the inner workings of this module. Could you have a look at トウモロコシ and 玉蜀黍#Japanese and see why {{ja-see}} at トウモロコシ isn't displaying as expected? {{ja-noun}} at 玉蜀黍#Japanese includes the katakana spelling, and that used to suffice, but something has clearly changed...

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:32, 5 November 2021 (UTC)

まんぐわ

This is the modern hiragana spelling of 馬鍬(まんぐわ) (manguwa) as well as the historical hiragana spelling of 馬鍬(まんが) (manga). {{ja-see}} is unable to display this information clearly. Rdoegcd (talk) 15:47, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

@Rdoegcd: From what I can find, 馬鍬 is pronounced maguwa as the "standard" kun'yomi, with manga deriving from maguwa as a sound shift. My local copies of Kōjien, Daijirin, and Shinmeikai edition 5 don't list any terms at all with a manguwa reading, suggesting that this might be obsolete, or dialect.

Over at Kotobank, the Nihon Kokugo Daijiten does list this, but with no detail other than just referring the reader to the manga pronunciation. They'll sometimes do this for obsolete readings, things that are historically attestable but no longer in use.

Daijisen on that same Kotobank page also lists manguwa, but their notation is a little difficult to understand; I think they mean that manguwa does appear in modern usage? Hard to suss out.

⇒ At any rate -- getting to the crux of the issue and the behavior of {{ja-see}}, I did some quick test edits to see better what's going on:

For pronunciation and definitions of まんぐわ – see the following entry.

【馬鍬(まんが)】 [noun] Alternative form of 馬鍬 (maguwa) - test まんが 【馬鍬】 [noun] Alternative form of 馬鍬 (maguwa) - test まんぐわ

(This term, まんぐわ, is a historical hiragana spelling of the above terms.)

So it looks like {{ja-see}} is catching both the hhira and the regular default hiragana arguments, which we want -- and then putting both entry summaries into the same "historical hiragana spelling" table, which we don't want, since only one of these is a historical spelling, and the other is a modern spelling.

I'm no good at Lua, however, so I must ask someone else to handle any updates to the module part.

@Fish bowl, any chance you might be able to help? If not, could you ping someone else who could? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:29, 28 July 2022 (UTC)

I made a fix to this. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 11:23, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

linking to the third persons without hyphens

The terms "first-person", "second-person", and "third-person" should link to first person, second person, and third person, without hyphens, like this: [[third person|third-person]], while keeping the hyphens in the visible link description. The last two hyphenated forms have been deleted, so they result in redirects (or red links, once these redirects are deleted), and the first hyphenated term links to a slightly different sense. The grammar sense is available at the hyphenless forms. I noticed it in 吾 (Etymologies 2 and 3) but of course it may be present elsewhere. (Etymology 1 in the same entry should also be formatted like that, the term "first-person" with a hyphen as an adjective in the visible link description and without the hyphen in the actual reference; the same way for "second-person".) I couldn't find where this data item could be corrected. Adam78 (talk) 09:31, 16 February 2023 (UTC)

@Adam78: The problem you described seems to come from あれ#Etymology_4 and あ#Etymology_4, unrelated to this module. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 01:44, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

Thank you! Now I can't see any problem anymore. Adam78 (talk) 09:21, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

mixed hiragana-katakana

Category:Japanese redlinks/ja-see has new "The following entry is uncreated" entries — アイヌご, いんキャ, etc. @Huhu9001 —Fish bowl (talk) 09:01, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

@Fish bowl: Do you think t:ja-see should categorize them as "a kana form", "a mixed kana form" or "an alternative form"? -- Huhu9001 (talk) 14:01, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Neutral; but I don't think "mixed kana form" is a meaningful description anyway. —Fish bowl (talk) 23:55, 3 June 2023 (UTC)

Alright then I will make them "an alternative form"s. They look really strange. -- Huhu9001 (talk) 01:18, 4 June 2023 (UTC)

Kanji grades

Can someone change how the kanji grades are displayed? I was looking at the entry for 奴 and thought there was some kind of error when I saw an H after め. Now I see that it stands for hyougai kanji, but it's not immediately clear that one can hover over the letter/number to check what it represents. I was thinking maybe a small question mark as a superscript or a dotted line could work, similar to how Wikipedia displays the template for "circa". Masatami (talk) 15:14, 20 April 2024 (UTC)

Request to Update Module for New Parameter

@Theknightwho Could you please update this module to accommodate the newly added hist parameters in Module:Jpan-headword? Thank you! --TongcyDai (talk) 02:41, 24 April 2024 (UTC)