Talk:старославянский язык

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Deletion discussion[edit]

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Language-related entries

Im sure theyre SoPs.



--Dixtosa. 14:39, 17 September 2012 (UTC)

In Russian, ethnicity adjective + the word язык (jazýk) are the standard and a more common way to refer to a language (except for language that don't use adjectives, e.g. санскрит, иврит, эсперанто (Sanscrit, Hebrew, Esperanto) etc. Phrases like "speak a language" don't count, an adverb is used in this case - говорить по-английски/по-русски - to speak English/Russian. русский (rússkij) is an abbreviation (somewhat colloquial) of русский язык (rússkij jazýk), just like nominative (noun) is an abbreviation of nominative case. A Russian textbook would be titled "учебник русского языка", not just "учебник русского". This is a grammatical explanation of how it works in Russian. Even though the pattern is common and predictable, I don't see the need to delete these entries. русский (rússkij) (noun, language name) is flagged as colloquial. That's what it is, really. A correct, formal translation of English (noun, language name) is английский язык (anglíjskij jazýk), not simply английский (anglíjskij). Many languages work similarly. See also Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion#tadžikų kalba about Lithuanian. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 22:48, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
In that case there's some clean-up to do. I checked the translations we have for northwestern neighbours of Russian (Norwegian, Finnish, Swedish, Estonian, Latvian, Lithuanian). Only in the case of Lithuanian there's the word язык in the current Russian translation of the name of the language. --Hekaheka (talk) 23:36, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, I know. Polish translations (far from always consistent either) have been a little bit more consistent and they more often add język (e.g. język polski) in front of the language name (if it's based on the adjective). As I said, this pattern is quite predictable - adjective + язык (jazyk), so there was no immediate need to create entries for each language name, so just a blue linked adjective was often used as a translation - a quick solution. It's a bit awkward too. A translation of Finnish (language) - финский (ru) m (fínskij) links to an existing adjective, so one can see the declension. "финский язык m (fínskij jazýk)" doesn't exist. If it were, one perhaps would need to add declension manually. "финский (fínskij) язык m (jazýk)" looks ugly, "финский (finskij) язык (jazyk) (fínskij jazýk) m" looks better but doesn't link to ru:wiki. There's no perfect solution here. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:59, 17 September 2012 (UTC)
Ukrainian and Belarusian translations are another prove that these are abbreviations. Unlike other Slavic languages, Ukrainian and Belarusian word for language is feminine - мова (móva), so all language names are feminine in Ukrainian and Belarusian as well - "українська мова" (uk), "беларуская мова" (be). The abbreviated translations e.g. "українська" (uk), "беларуская" (be) are not lemma forms, lemma forms (adjectives) are "український" (uk), "беларускі" (be). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:17, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
Firstofall, we arent talking about declension and other Slavic languages. secondofall, our main goal is not to blue all the reds (red not Red xD). thirdofall, I(we) don't doubt aforementioned words being abbreviations (the same thing happens in Georgian). But, to the best of my knowledge, predictable (note that this prediction is different from the prediction that goodly would exist because of good and -ly in that, the former is a (unwritten) grammatical rule, that has no exceptions) words are bound to be deleted. Foourth of all, we wouldn't make an entry just because it a more proper translation--Dixtosa. 15:34, 18 September 2012 (UTC)
There's no rule to delete predictable forms. The word past tense is also quite predictable from its component words, it's still a word, very concrete and a more correct form than just "past", which can mean other things apart from the "grammatical past tense". русский язык (russkij jazyk) can be understood from its components as well but it's still a more proper word for "Russian" (language) and a more correct and formal translation. I believe the same applies to ქართული ენა (kartuli ena), even though the shortened ქართული (kartuli) is also acceptable (you are better to judge what's more frequent and formal in the sense of Georgian (language)) but I won't insist on keeping this if you're so eagre to delete it. The Russian Wiktionary may not have entries for full language names, since Russians don't need to be taught how to form a language name but it's educational here and the right thing to do. I have personally added many Russian translations of language names using just adjectives, I explained my reasons above. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Here's what I think: the translations sections should list a two-word translation like "русский язык" and the adjective русский would need to have a definition like "relating to the Russian people, language, or culture". Because in Russian, languages don't have "names" (except for a few like санскрит, иврит, эсперанто) but they are just phrases indicating the language of some people or culture. --WikiTiki89 (talk) 06:15, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
Yes, it's one of the options, as I said, there's no perfect solution. Another option would be русский (rússkij) (язы́к). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:07, 19 September 2012 (UTC)
I still think that русский язык is SOP as it is simply referring to the "language of the Russians". --WikiTiki89 (talk) 06:28, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
I have already answered this. It seems a matter of preferences among Wiktionarians on what to consider SoP and what not. Is "mammary gland" a sum of parts? ru:wiki has also an entry "молочная железа". What about all grammar case names? nominative case, etc.? Shall we start breaking up Chinese or Japanese language names - 俄文 (Éwén) or ロシア語 (Roshiago) because in English "Russian language" wold be considered a sum of parts? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:46, 20 September 2012 (UTC)
I would actually agree that mammary gland, молочная железа, and nominative case are all SOP. But right now we are only talking about Russian and only about language names. The word русский is an independent adjective and the word язык is an independent noun. Putting them together gives you nothing more than you would expect of any other adjective and any other noun. Russian happens to not have "names" for language but just phrases that are used to refer to them. The phrase русский язык is no different from ирландские танцы and говорить по-русски is no different from танцевать по-ирландски. There is nothing special about language-name phrases that we should include them as entries. The difference between "Russian has many French words." and "В русском языке есть много французских слов." is that in English, Russian is a language name, so the word language is unnecessary, while in Russian русский is just an adjective and so the word язык is required (unless it is known that you are talking about languages). --WikiTiki89 (talk) 07:56, 20 September 2012 (UTC)

Kept. bd2412 T 12:43, 8 August 2013 (UTC)