Talk:two-spirit

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RFV discussion[edit]

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Native American mixed gender. Someone has deposited a vast amount of research not well formatted. I think that the substantial cleanup effort requires that the definitions be correct and attestable before the translation-table clean up begins. DCDuring TALK 12:05, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Uhm, unfortunately, having been involved in published research on this topic, it's essentially undefinable in English which assumes dichotomous sex and gender. I would propose, but solely based on research among 'aboriginal north american peoples' (itself a disputed concept) three primary definitions in common parlance:
  1. Non-heterosexual people, sexual minorities, especially of Aboriginal North American ethnicity.
  2. Non-western gender identified; a person whose dichotomous genetic sex is not the same as the person's gender role or presentation. Especially a person of Aboriginal North American ethnicity.
  3. (queer jargon) Any queer person, especially one embracing a "Native American"-influenced spirituality.
- Amgine/talk 03:25, 2 September 2009 (UTC)

RFV failed, both senses removed and replaced with {{substub}}. —RuakhTALK 15:44, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Etymology discussion[edit]

Removed etymology because it is unsubstantiated and suspect for grammatical reasons(see detailed reasons at talk section of Wikipedia article on "two spirit").

the "etymology" of this thing is that it has been touted as a politically correct shibboleth since ca. 1993. This is a cultural thing. In the USA, interest groups only feel they are given due attention if everyone is forced to tiptoe around them and emphatically embraces their preferred terminology du jour. "This attempt at rebranding recalls the shifts from homosexual to gay to queer to GLBT." A descriptive dictionary will report this kind of US-specific proscriptivism, but it will not either endorse or reject it.
personally, I feel that "two-spirit" is much more disingenious than the mere "LGBT" or "queer" because it is an attempt to simulate a Sapir-Whorfian "indigenous cultural viewpoint" expressed in vocabulary by means of made-up vocabulary. The PC people in the US are very fond of doing this, see "never again the burning times" in radical pagan feminism, which simulates a "genocide survivor" trauma expressed in culture-specific vocabulary. Exactly the same thing is going on in Maafa, again simulating "genocide survivor" vocabulary, shamelessly imitating the real term Shoah. To my mind, this is despicable linguistic fraud. The real crime of cultural chauvinism is perpetrated by the people using such fraudulent mimicry terminology.
But I can detach myself from this personal opinion sufficiently to just report the facts. Which are that this is a terminlogical fashion which arose in certain subcultures in the USA in the 1990s. --Dbachmann (talk) 12:11, 4 April 2012 (UTC)

Translations[edit]

Per RFC, these have been moved out of the entry until they can be checked and formatted. (Note how badly they are formatted, and how many do not use canonical language names.)

Moved out of the main entry to here by: - -sche (discuss) 19:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Word unknown but known to exist[edit]

  • The Wiyot must have had a word for this, because per Native Americans (ISBN 0874368367) "female berdaches played an important role in Wiyot ceremonialism", and per Handbook of North American Indians: California (1978, ISBN 0160045746) "Male berdaches were present in Wiyot society". Sabine Lang adds the further detail that Wiyot two-spirits were excluded from the sweat-house, even during ceremonies; they hunted and could wear either men's clothing or women's clothing. But none of these books give the terms used to denote such people. - -sche (discuss) 07:15, 23 June 2015 (UTC)

Specific two-spirit figures[edit]

These were listed as translations of "two-spirit", but are in fact the names of specific two-spirit people:

  • Blackfoot: Saahkómaapi'aakííkoan ("Boy-girl", another name of the female-bodied "Running Eagle") (Southern Peigan dialect)
  • Alutiiq: Tyakutyik (q.v.)
  • Nuxálk / Bella Coola: Sx̣ints (Sxints, Sx̭ınts, Sx’ǐnts) (q.v.)
  • Winnebago: Dedjáŋgtcowiŋga ("Blue lake woman", name of a particular ?male-bodied? two-spirit)
  • Yuman (Yuma, Kumeyaay/Diegueño (Tipai, Kamia), etc): Warharmi (g.v.)

Moved out of the main entry to here by: - -sche (discuss) 19:09, 26 November 2013 (UTC)

Itelmen[edit]

The Itelmen translation (koekchuchami) is incorrect. First, the ending -ami is a Russian noun case ending (instrumental plural). Second, Itelmen uses Cyrillic. The word is probably коекчуч. —Stephen (Talk) 04:38, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

Good catch! It seems that the reference which had koekchuchami was in error. Regarding the script, Wikipedia says Itelmen used the Latin alphabet when it was first written (in the 1930s), and switched to Cyrillic in the 1980s. Google Books has mentions of both forms (scripts). - -sche (discuss) 06:12, 15 March 2014 (UTC)

RFC discussion: November 2013[edit]

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The following discussion has been moved from Wiktionary:Requests for cleanup.

This discussion is no longer live and is left here as an archive. Please do not modify this conversation, but feel free to discuss its conclusions.


two-spirit

The translation table is in a form that is a substantial departure from our format, using many multi-part language names, unlinked translations, with non-conforming glosses and at least one out-of place comment. It has the look of a data deposit from someone's academic research project.

Someone who had good knowledge of the range of native American languages, tribes, and geography is needed to render this into our format. Alternatively, the data could be copied to the Talk page and the entry perhaps reverted to a state when it was more conformant. DCDuring TALK 15:52, 25 November 2013 (UTC)

What’s more, there is a hidden translation table with the gloss “Similar mixed-gender identities outside of North America”. — Ungoliant (Falai) 15:55, 25 November 2013 (UTC)
I think DCDuring's suggestion of moving the content to the talk page until it can be checked and formatted is best. I have moved it and will begin checking what I can. - -sche (discuss) 20:00, 25 November 2013 (UTC)


Progress report: I've checked about half of the entries, adding them back to the mainspace if they were valid and adding them to the "translations I couldn't find any evidence for" table above if they weren't. - -sche (discuss) 15:19, 5 June 2015 (UTC)

Definition change[edit]

@-sche, as I know you did some work on this entry, I wanted to make sure that a recent edit that changed the definitions somewhat come to your attention. I for one don't know whether sexual orientation ought to be part of the definition at all. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:01, 18 January 2016 (UTC)

Sexual orientation is definitely part of it in the Native communities. In some instances sexual orientation is the only way the people are "gender variant," while in other communities there are also factors in traditional ceremonial dress and ornamentation. I really am not sure what's in the books that have been written. My knowledge on this comes from traditional Two Spirits in the Dineh community, as well as ceremonial people in a handful of other Nations. CorbieVreccan (talk) 21:06, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
This article mentions that traditional Two Spirits among the Dineh may identify in contemporary terms as either a gay male or a transgender woman: "Although both Naswood and Enfield identify as nádleeh, they choose a different gender identity in English that influences their gaze and politics. Naswood identifies as a gay male, and Enfield states that she is a transgender woman. Their division in identities is a recent cultural evolution because Navajos did not make this exact kind of differentiation among nádleeh prior to contemporary times." [1] CorbieVreccan (talk) 21:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
The term refers to gender variants. It refers mostly to people who belong to defined gender categories which are either equivalent to transgender categories or else third-gender and fourth-gender, it usually also covers known cases of people who would now be considered transgender or third-gender but whose tribes did not have defined gender categories besides ones that would now be termed cis male and cis female. It doesn't refer to just any gender variance, though; for example, a cisgender, heterosexual woman who wears a suit and works as a lawyer or who works as a construction worker is unlikely to be considered a two-spirit.
As Corbie points out, there are a few tribal categories which are subsumed under the broad umbrella of "two-spirit" where "cross-dressing" (for lack of a better way of putting it) and other gender-variant actions are either optional or not part of the definition of the category at all, and the only thing "gender variant" about the category is sexuality and (/or?) social role (and the fact that the category was classified by the tribe, or possibly only by outsiders, as a gender category). However, defining the term as "homosexual, bisexual or gender-variant" is inaccurate and gives far too much prominence to sexuality, which is not a primary meaning of the term.
"Transgender or ... third-gender", despite being modern terms, are fine to using in explaining the meaning of this term, IMO (or if not, why add "homosexual", another modern term?), but Corbie is right to have highlighted that defining this term as "identifying as transgender" suggests, well, identification with the term "transgender". I'll mull over how this could be (re)worded best. The difficulty in defining this term is that it's a broad umbrella term. - -sche (discuss) 23:16, 18 January 2016 (UTC)
This is further complicated by the fact that many Indigenous people whose communities recognize them as Two Spirits see mainstream/non-Native definitions of gay, lesbian, bi and/or trans as not identical to their understanding of themselves or their roles in their cultures. It's not an exact translation. In these cases they relate more to the (also modern) term, Two Spirit (or, more traditionally, the specific term used in their culture) and not as any of the LGBT terms used by non-Natives. "Two Spirit" itself is a modern, pan-Indian term coined for intertribal organizing. It's not even clear if the term originated in the Indigenous communities, though it does bear a strong resemblance to some tribes' ideas of gender (but not others). One of the ways it tends to differ from current, non-Native ideas of trans is that biology is acknowledged, with people describing themselves as, for instance, "a male-bodied two spirit" or "a female-bodied two spirit," and neither being seen as the same as men or women. It's a different perspective, so making it understandable to a general audience is not the easiest task. CorbieVreccan (talk) 03:31, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

@-sche I think it's getting there, but I really think sexuality needs to be mentioned in some way. In some communities being gay or bi (etc) is the only gender-variance involved. Gender-variant, non-heterosexual? (We gots lots of "non-"s...) CorbieVreccan (talk) 17:03, 19 January 2016 (UTC)

Hmm, can you name a tribe where two-spirits are distinguished only by sexuality? I'm having trouble recalling one, now that I think about it, though I can think of tribes (e.g. the Tewa, according to some sources) where wearing clothing associated with another sex was optional or not done, and the distinctive feature was an androgynous social role and choice of work as well as range of partners. A number of reference works by gay white men interpret two-spirits as gay based on the fact that e.g. trans-woman-like (femininely dressed, etc) people often took men as partners, but that's a questionable interpretation, and raises the question of why the cisgender men who had sex with two-spirits — as well as cisgender gay men who had sex with other cisgender gay men, and cisgender lesbian couples (as among the Tewa, where they existed alongside and distinct from two-spirits) — aren't considered two-spirits, if sexuality is sufficient to be a two spirit. The defining feature seems to be that two-spirits belong to a not-cis-male, not-cis-female gender category, rather than sexuality — they may have a certain sexuality, but cisgender people might have the same sexuality.
By the way, if anyone wondered, my logic behind putting "gender-variant, non-cisgender, or non-binary" rather than just "gender-variant" is that adhering to a socially-defined and -recognized third-gender role doesn't seem "variant" except from the point of view of a culture that only has two gender roles.
- -sche (discuss) 20:32, 19 January 2016 (UTC)
I don't know if anyone legit has written about it, but among Lakota I know, "winkte" is used for gay men, even if they are masculine males. Yet the anthropology books I've seen say it only refers to those who are gender-variant in work and dress. Two-Spirit is a modern term that largely relates to cultures with two genders. Those who have four genders may use the term Two-Spirit for the sake of intertribal/pan-Indian organizing, but the traditional people don't usually use it unless they think it's the only word someone from outside their culture will understand.
More later. Busy at the moment. CorbieVreccan (talk) 01:53, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
Aha, thanks! Yes, in the modern era some people apply winkte to gay men. It was historically a gender category, though; they did feminine work like embroidery and cooking (Mirsky 1937), beadwork and quillwork (Hassrick 1982), and crocheting (William 1986); they danced in women's dances (Williams 1986); and at least some wore clothing associated with women (Williams 1986). Looking into it, Sabine Lang (Men as Women, 2010) has something that sounds like prime usage-note material; she says two-spirit "originated under very specific historical circumstances and [...] in its original meaning, it encompasse[d] contemporary gay and lesbian Native Americans as well as people, both in the old tribal cultures and in the present, who identify themselves as being of a gender other than [cis] man or woman, such as the Navajo nadleehe, the Shoshoni tainna wa'ippe, or the Lakota winkte. In that meaning, Native American gays/lesbians of today and the alternatively gendered people of the tribal cultures are viewed as essentially identical. This view, however, is not even unanimously shared in Native American communities, especially by people who are still familiar with the traditions of gender variance in their cultures and who will often [...] view gays and lesbians as different from winkte, tainna wa'ippe, and so on." - -sche (discuss) 05:30, 20 January 2016 (UTC)
I've tweaked it a bit more. I wish we could make this more concise, but only using modern, mainstream LGBTQI+ terminology falls short (see my edit summary). It's important to remember that people who fill this ceremonial role in living cultures still exist, alongside more mainstream (non-Native) LGBT groups; terminology is still evolving, and I think we need to prioritize actual Two Spirit voices over non-Native anthropological ones. Some Two Spirit folks also participate in mainstream groups, but many others do not. CorbieVreccan (talk) 18:49, 20 January 2016 (UTC)