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Cognates and Proto form[edit]

Ugh. I hate so say this, but I think I agree with Drago's edits. That is, we don't list cognates that way, do we? Another point being the Proto stuff (that I object to frequently.) I'm not sure the last change made here was quite correct. --Connel MacKenzie T C 14:15, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

I don't know how we list cognates, but this was an outright deletion, not a formatting issue. The undecided policy aside, warring between the addition and deletion of content is not the way to resolve it. On the other hand I don't acutally know Drago's reasoning either. The fact that these edits were uncommented weighs in more than anything. Davilla 15:17, 5 June 2006 (UTC)
That much, I can certainly agree with. --Connel MacKenzie T C 15:21, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

Following copied from User talk:Drago. --Davilla 16:35, 5 June 2006 (UTC)

My reasons were: (1) As a general rule, Greek and Sanskrit should not be in Latin script.
(2) Chuvash is a Turkic language: explanation is missing why would a Turkic language use
an Indo-European word for 'sun'. (Wheel > Sun relationship semantically also questionable.).
Linguistically the only way is through Tocharian, but no indication was made here. So
Chuvash - as it is now - should IMHO be deleted as pure speculation. Drago
BTW, it should read "Cognates" ... (this was a correction and no insult atall. I took the right to cancel a fierce and unfair /personal/ attack)HJJHolm (talk) 16:26, 19 June 2017 (UTC)
It was clearly a typo. As you surely can see, he spells it correctly in his comment. Your comment is childish, rude, and not constructive, and it has no place in a project such as this. —Stephen (Talk) 11:34, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

"Eagle" wheel[edit]

Doesn't wheel also refer to when an object, such as an eagle, aeronautically spins or turns around? "The eagle wheeled high above the lonely forest". Or when someone turns? "Fred wheeled around to look at me". Neither of these definitions are here. Should I add them? -- 00:42, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, please add those senses. --Connel MacKenzie 00:52, 7 August 2006 (UTC)


German cognate[edit]

Does anyone know a German cognate of "wheel"? I mean "wheel" is sure not the only word where I can't find a German cognate. But other words at least have a cognate in Old or Middle High German or dialects which are spoken until today. Furthermore it is interesting that this word survived in Dutch (Wiel), but it seems that it didn't survive in other German dialects. How would the form look in German? "Wehl"? --User:Teutschvölkischer, 10:25, 29. Heuert/Juli 2011 (MEZ)

Am not sure whether the Dutch form has survived - it appears as borrowed, to me. The West Frisian form[1] is way out, compared with all the other forms. I regard the Danish hjul[6] as a cognate, however. Real responsible care is required in fabricating Proto-Indo-European roots, but most, including that in the main entry, are logical. The only other P.I.E. root I have come across is QEL[6] (to drive), [Skeat]; probably from √ G2LG2L[5]; ultimately > Spanish OLA (wave)[4]. The original sense seems to be 'roll'.

Compare also Welsh CHWEILIO[6] (to turn), et cetera. The Ancient Greek[1], Albanian[2] and Sanscrit[3] citations all wander away from the root.

[0] means 'Absolutely not; [1] means 'Exceedingly unlikely'; [2] means 'Very dubious'; [3] means 'Questionable'; [4] means 'Possible'; [5] means 'Probable'; [6] means 'Likely'; [7] means 'Most Likely' or *Unattested; [8] means 'Attested'; [9] means 'Obvious' - only used for close matches within the same language or dialect, at linkable periods. √ means original or earliest root.  Symbol '2' stands for attributive 'a' missing in ancient spelling where only consonants were written.

Andrew H. Gray 21:58, 9 October 2015 (UTC) Andrew (talk)

Every specialist in German studies knows that the "Deutsches Wörterbuch" is the most reliable source for such questions. It is online available since 2002 as Thus, to answer the question, in modern high German the word is only preserved in combinations. In addition, there are a few toponyms like the City "Wiel". HJJHolm (talk) 08:14, 23 April 2017 (UTC)
The closest related word in German, as far as I can tell, is "Hals" meaning neck - that on which the head turns, as on a wheel - cf. Lithuanian "kaklas", Estonian "kael", Finnish "kaula" and of course Swedish and Norwegian "hals" - there's quite an extensive discussion of this here: 16:40, 24 January 2016 (UTC)
For any connection between the Germanic words you mention and those of an entirely different language family, namely Uralian, they would have to have been handed down, and their subtle change of meaning take place over millennia. Otherwise there is no evidence, I am afraid, of any connection with wheel; and certainly the Old English form is not derived from any of those Germanic forms. It may have been handed down by its use among servants, slaves, et cetera, from earlier usage, but assimilated into Anglo-Saxon. Andrew H. Gray 16:41, 25 January 2016 (UTC) Andrew (talk)

Welsh dymchwel and chweilio cannot possibly be related to this word, as chw- only comes from PIE sw-. PIE becomes p in Welsh (b under soft mutation, e.g. as the second member of a compound). —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:21, 27 April 2017 (UTC)

That is an important fact for P.I.E. sound change rules. The question is whether the Welsh form is from the same stock; and even if it quite likely is, there is still a chance of hybridity between the oldest English form and that of Welsh. I would have thought that possible influence from ancient morphology would have really been included in the degree syllabus; although it was only recently that one has been confirmed in this fact. Andrew H. Gray 17:11, 27 April 2017 (UTC)Andrew (talk)

Hi, imposter. The Deutsches Wörterbuch is not, or at the very least not necessarily, the best source for such questions, as it is a dictionary of modern German. The older parts (i.e. first letters in the alphabet) are also very much outdated. In this case (w-), of course, we're dealing with a later volume. But when we look for a "German cognate", we preferably want an Old High German or at least a Middle High German one. Therefore we have to consider dictionaries of these languages. For MHG, Lexer is online. The great and all-embracing Althochdeutsches Wörterbuch is also online. It will be the best tool once it's completed. That may take a while, but there are of course other Old High German dictionaries in print. Kolmiel (talk) 19:43, 2 May 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the update. And you may be snappy, however try to avoid personal insults. Simply give your sources, as you do here. Thanks. HJJHolm (talk) 16:00, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what's questionable about the Sanskrit, PIE *l > R is very common. —Aryaman (मुझसे बात करो) 04:06, 27 June 2017 (UTC)

"Germanistik "ġ"[edit]

"Germanistik +ġ" is not a usual sign in Germanistic literature, and thus undefined. It is known from Armenian or Semitic transliterations. Thus use signs that are common in the standard literature or produce a link! HJJHolm (talk) 08:06, 23 April 2017 (UTC)

What are you even talking about? Kolmiel (talk) 19:46, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I don't know what he's talking about, but in Germanic literature, ġ is for example used for the the palatal g (/j/) of Old English. --WikiTiki89 19:49, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
I guess he's talking about the ġ in Old English hwēoġol. --WikiTiki89 19:51, 2 May 2017 (UTC)
We should give the references, and everybody is well-informed. E.g., ME Huld (2000: 103) in his monography "Reinventing the wheel" writes "the archaic /Corpus Glossary/ preserved /hweohol/ with the medial glottal spirant." Moreover, on p 104 he traces this form back to PIE *kʷekʷlóm. Has someone arguments against or in favor of this?