But even so, I wonder what grounds there are for such a pronoun. But hypothetically, its accusative would actually be *pā́m, because of a sound rule known as w:Stang's law. The same is also seen in Template:termx whose accusative is *dyḗm, and indeed in Template:termx, whose accusative is also *sḗm (the nominative has a long vowel and loses its -s because of a similar sound rule, w:Szemerényi's law).
Can you name any descendants for those roots (besides the Germanic ones for *newd-, I know about those) that support their existence? (Also, *rei- would be written *rey- by our standards, and *nā- is likely *neh₂-)
Actually, "*rey" is a shortened form of "*rek" ("to pole up"), which has the descendants by an o-grade in Germanic:
- Old English: "roccian"
- Middle English: "rokken"
- English: "rock"
- Middle English: "rokken"
- Old High German: "ruccan"
- German: "rücken"
- Old English: "roccian"
The descendants of "*neh₂": (with the typical change of e to a in Indo-Iranian languages)
- Sanskrit: "नाथ" (natha) ("help")
The root "*newd" has no other descendants than the Germanic.
The descendants of "*dʰer": "http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/d%CA%B0er- (I've added some to it). Probably this is the most valuable of these.
o-grade in Germanic actually becomes a-grade (we still call it o-grade though), because of the change o>a in Germanic; Proto-Germanic didn't even have a short o. Short u (and in descendants also o) always goes back to a syllabic (zero grade) form of w, l, r, m or n: u stays u, and l̥, r̥, m̥, n̥ become ul, ur, um, un in Germanic. So the o-grade that you mentioned on the page for Template:termx is wrong, and it seems that the Germanic forms that were originally listed (before you removed them) were actually correct. Aside from that, there is no ə in PIE, it is just a way to indicate the sound of a laryngeal between consonants (which we write with the laryngeal letter on Wiktionary). But I don't see why it would appear in some of the verb forms. Personally I wonder what source you have for the verb forms. Does that source specifically mention that the root's present aspect had athematic root inflection?
In any case, a root that is ancestral to 'rock' would have to contain one of those sounds in it somewhere. Since there is no l, r, m, n in the Germanic words, the conclusion is that it must have contained w. By w:Kluge's law this must go back to either rewk/ḱ-, rewg/ǵ- or rewgʰ/ǵʰ-. M. Philippa's etymology dictionary for Dutch suggests h₃ruk-néh₂- from the root h₃rewk- "to dig up, to pull out". She mentions the following cognates: Latijn runcāre (“to weed”), Ancient Greek ὀρύσσω (orússō, “to dig”), Sanskrit लुञ्चति (luñcati, “to pluck”), Latvian rũķēt (“to root, to dig”).
One note: you say that the change from e to a is typical of Indo-Iranian. While this is true, it does not apply in this particular case. Already in PIE, e was pronounced as a when it was next to h₂, and e was pronounced as o next to h₃ (but we still write e in both cases). So the vowel change in this particular word is actually much older and has nothing to do with the Indo-Iranian change.
But I also think that a-sounds were always welcome for to descend into Indo-Iranian languages. A good example that for is:
- Persian: ژاله (zhala) ("hail")
Notes: Change of "g" to "s" (typical for Persian), change of first "e" to "a" (typical for Indo-Iranian).
The descendants by the o-grade I didn't remove, but enhance since I added the Proto-Germanic verb to it. Also, there was no Middle High German verb "tamen", but "tarnen". The term "tarni" was correct but already in Old High German "tarnan" existed, so I replaced it that with. I think my edit in the Germanic descendants on "*dʰer" was good, also since I added the forms of the zero-grade and other descendants.
By the way, so as example Icelandic "drottning" is by the zero-grade, thus: "*dʰr̥" descended "*dur" and so contraction "*dru".
But can Danish "dreng" then have descended of "dʰer"? By the short e-grade and then contraction?
The where I found "dʰer" doesn't thematize the root's inflection directly, but if the second root is that one, I assumed it as the athematic form.
I don't think we can use "*rey" since it has no descendants. And what does this Kluge's law mean?
For the sentences for the language boxes in Proto-Indo-European I suggest that we need the masculine and feminine suffixes for to form a noun of "*dʰer".
You are correct about *dʰr̥- becoming *dur-, but this is rather a problem as there isn't really any reason that it would become *dru-. On the other hand, even Germanic itself has some words that are obviously related to *druhtinaz, most importantly the verb *dreuganan "to serve". So the noun most likely goes back to *dʰrugʰ-ten-os or something similar, from the zero grade of the root *dʰrewgʰ- that the verb also derives from. The verb must derive from such a root, because it is a strong verb; Germanic strong verbs, bar a few exceptions, always derive from PIE verb roots.
There are similar problems with Old Norse drengr. It presumably derives from Germanic *drangiz or *drangijaz, so it would have to derive from an o-grade form of a root, which could be reconstructed as *dʰrengʰ-. Again, there is no reason to assume that *dor- (o-grade of *der-) would become *dro-. The only possibility for a relationship with *der- that I can think of is that *drangi(ja)z actually derives from the zero grade of the root, extended with a suffix: *dr-ongʰ- or the like. But the ablaut and accent relationships of such a noun don't seem to fit what is known about PIE, in particular the appearance of the o-grade. Then again I am not an Indo-European linguist so I don't know for sure, but it does seem like a rather shaky etymology. Deriving it from a root *dʰrengʰ- is far more straightforward and plausible.
Kluge's law is explained in the link I gave you. It explains the origins of Germanic geminated voiceless plosives, -pp-, -tt-, -kk- as resulting from a single plosive followed by -n- which then contracted. The Germanic ancestor of 'rock' is *rukkōnan, which contains such a geminated plosive, and using Kluge's law it can be related to the other words I listed without problems.
One last note... there are a few cases where -ur- is replaced with -ru-, but those cases are all analogical and were 'reverted' based on related words. The most prominent example is the verb Template:termx, which derives from a hypothetical root *bʰreg- (that does not have any certain cognates outside Germanic, so it could be a later coinage). The three grades would have been *bʰreg- (present), *bʰrog- (perfect singular), *bʰr̥g- (perfect nonsingular), which in Germanic would have become *brek-, *brak-, *burk-. It's obvious that the zero grade is anomalous here, since the vowel and consonant have been swapped. Presumably Germanic speakers would have realised the same, and may have metathesised the consonant and the vowel so that they matched the order they have in the other two grades. So this kind of change does happen, but it only happens based on analogy with related words. It doesn't happen 'out of the blue'.
I found out that "dʰre" is another form of "dʰer"; []. Can the "g" be added in Proto-Germanic just so? The sonorant change doesn't apply on "dʰre", thus: e-grade: dʰre → dre → dren → dren zero-grade: dʰr → dur → dru
I assume that "dru" could have existed, since words meaning "king" and "queen" descended from it.
Kluge's law is meaning, that German "rücken" is not "rücknen" and English "rock" is not "rockn". It is meaning that in Proto-Germanic plosive words have the "n", but in the Germanic languages it has been contracted.
Roots can't end in vowels, so *dʰre- is not a root. There is something called 'root extension' where a consonant (not a vowel!) is added onto another root, but I don't really know how that works.
Which words meaning king and queen descend from it?
Kluge's law describes a sound change that occurred in the history of Germanic. It is not convincingly accepted by linguists but there is still some evidence that seems hard to ignore. The change meant that a sequence of any PIE plosive (voiceless, voiced or aspirated) followed by n was converted into a geminate (double) voiceless plosive. For 'rock', the sequence of events according to Kluge's law could be roughly as follows: h₃ruknéh₂- > ruknā- > (by Kluge's law) rukkā- > rukkō- (infinitive *rukkōną).
In Icelandic "drottin" ("king"), "drottning" ("queen") and "drott" ("people"). It is actually complicated on whether these words descended from "*dʰer".
I recognized so that Kluge's law places a vowel between the plosive and the nasal infix in Proto-Germanic.
I summarize the correct spelling: ə = h₂ a = h₂e u = w
To form a noun from "*dʰer", are there substantivation suffixes that we can use?
Like I said, the root of *druhtinaz in Germanic is the verb *dreuganan, and this must have been a root at some point because it is a strong verbs. Strong verbs are always descended from 'primary' underived verbs in PIE, whereas weak verbs are secondary/derived verbs (and some of them were originally strong). So this means that an Indo-European root *dʰrewgʰ- almost certainly is the ancestor of this verb, implying that *dʰer- cannot be the ancestor.
Kluge's law has nothing to do with vowels or with the nasal infix. It affects only sequences of a plosive followed by -n-. Please don't confuse a nasal infix with a nasal suffix. The nasal infix was special; it occurred only in some verbs as a way to form the present stem, and was not used anywhere else in the entire language.
Yes, but Kluge's law placed a vowel between the plosive and the nasal suffix.
So because "*dreuganan" is an irregular verb it did not descend from "*dʰer", but it descended from "*dʰrewgʰ".
Can we find some nominalization suffixes for "*dʰer" ("to support")?
No it didn't place a vowel there, where did you get that from?
- dreuganan is not an irregular verb, it's a class 2 strong verb like many others. Strong verbs always derive from verb roots. Some strong verbs have suffixes, but there is no suffix -ewgʰ- in Indo-European, so it's clear that this verb was not suffixed. Therefore, the Germanic root must have also been an Indo-European root in origin.
I just call irregular verbs what you call strong verbs.
I've created the category: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Category:User_ine-pro .
Hmm...what don't you propose on the templates?
Do you know what suffixes in Proto-Indo-European used that for:
- Adjective → Adverb
- Adjective → Noun
- Adjective → Verb
- Noun → Adjective
- Noun → Verb
- Verb → Adjective
- Verb → Noun
By the way, I saw an entry in Proto-Indo-European which contains some Anatolian descendants. Shouldn't we find a way to display the Lycian script and how do I request in entries? And same to Tocharian?
There were several suffixes for each of those in use, just like in English. I don't know any specific ones, and it is hard to reconstruct their meaning because the meaning and usage of suffixes can often change. Even if you compare English and Dutch (two closely related languages) you'll notice that where English uses the suffix -ness, Dutch prefers -heid, even though both languages have the 'other' suffix as well: English -hood, Dutch -nis.
There are some things that I know about PIE word derivation, mainly because it is similar in later languages. Adjectives could be used alone, without any noun. This still happens in German too, like 'ich möge den großen nicht'. In PIE this was even easier because nouns and adjectives were inflected the same. Sometimes, such 'substantivised' adjectives could become nouns. There are some linguists who believe that PIE, in earlier times, did not even have a real difference between nouns and adjectives, but that they formed a single common word class.
To convert nouns or adjectives into adverbs, specific cases were often used instead of suffixes. This still happened in Latin. A well-known example is how the suffix -mente was formed in the Romance languages. In Latin, there was no instrumental case, but the ablative case was used with an instrumental meaning (so it was an ablative-instrumental case). The noun mēns (“mind”) was feminine, and its ablative form was mente (“from a mind, with a mind”). The ablative could be combined with an adjective like rapidus (“quick”), used in the feminine ablative form rapidā; the result was rapidā mente meaning "with a quick mind" or "quick-mindedly". This kind of phrase became very widespread as the Romance languages evolved, and this particular example still exists: Italian rapidamente, French rapidement.
There are also some examples in English of an 'instrumental' (if you can call it that) being used with a noun to create an adverb: with haste means more or less the same as hastily. Other cases were also used to create adverbs. In the Germanic languages, the genitive case was particularly popular, and resulted in words like German einerseits, ebenfalls, mindestens and so on.
I don't really know anything about the Lycian script. You would have to ask in the Grease Pit.
Last edit: 01:05, 26 January 2016
Yes, in German you can substantivate adjectives easily into nouns, also the present participle! Also with the gerund form of verbs!
But a note to your text, "mögen" is also present irregular, "möge" is the subjunctive 1 first person singular of "mögen", so you need an additional phrase like "Er sagt, dass ich den großen möge" or you say the present indicative first person singular "mag".
The word "mögen" is a modal verb, other modal verbs in German are:
In German there are determinative compoundings (a way to make new words in German) with a genitive, but when making new words in German, the genitive is optional.
Meaningly: the meal's table.
Here is a Lycian font, but you have to register to download it, anyways the download is free. But the Lycian font is also in the unicode, so we can use it.
So I suppose to try to display the Lycian terms in Template:termx, cuz I don't have to register there because I already can display it.
Last edit: 03:10, 26 January 2016
Sorry, I meant possibly [[Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/péwh2|*péwh2]]. I noticed HeliosX tends to use a ton of *a's, of which I am very skeptical. In certain cases, you can see his reasoning; [[Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/péwh2|*péwh2]], for example, seems to reflect Latin paucus (“few”), and *ad seems to reflect the Latin preposition. Nevertheless, if you're going to take the Latin term and apply what you know of sound rules to guess a PIE form, I would imagine you would guess something like *pewkos, *pewḱos, or even *pewkʷos, the latter by the boukolos rule, with a root *pewk-/pewḱ-/pewkʷ-.
By the way, I imagine myself fairly familiar with PIE, but looking back on the thread, you seem to have much more knowledge about it than I do. So forgive me if I make errors.
Assuming that there is some kind of form *páw-s then *pā́m would indeed be the accusative form of that. But I don't know of any evidence for those forms. I am skeptical about a's too, but I don't know enough about Latin to explain why it has so many a's in forms such as this. In Germanic, Indo-Iranian and Balto-Slavic all a's could plausibly come from o, so it is never that much of an issue there. Germanic indicates *powos or *pawos, although plausibly it could also reflect *pogwhos or *pagwhos since Germanic often changed gwh to w. *pHgwhos is also a possibility, going by Germanic alone.
Last edit: 03:11, 26 January 2016
So, is that *gwh a representation of *gʷʰ ? Or is it *gwH? Most Latin words containing a's for which I know the PIE etymologies derive them from *e or [[Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/h1|*h1]] (confer quattuor < *kʷetwóres (“four”) and pater < [[Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ph1tḗr|*ph1tḗr]]), so perhaps a more consistent reconstruction would be approximately [[Reconstruction:Proto-Indo-European/ph1wgʷʰos|*ph1wgʷʰos]]. But then how would it be used to function as an adverb? Would that involve the instrumental case?
I meant *gʷʰ yes. Sorry, the liquidthreads thing doesn't have the special character tools at the bottom like other pages have. "quattuor" is kind of interesting. Does e change to a because of some regular sound change? The combination -wgʷʰ- isn't possible though, because in PIE labiovelars were delabialized next to w (or u), so it would have become -wgʰ- already, which in turn does not account for the Germanic form (it would have become *faugaz). It doesn't account for the Latin form either, which would have been *paugus I think. I think the root probably ended in -w-, and the -c- found in Latin must be a later extension, because Germanic does not have it.
Last edit: 03:11, 26 January 2016
Oh, my liquidthreads box has the toolbar at the top. I'm not sure why the *-e- occasionally changes to Latin -a-. I'm pretty sure that it isn't a regular sound change for all *e's in certain positions. I didn't know that the boukolos rule which you're describing occurred in PIE proper, I thought it was an isogloss in some of the branches. I'm liking the idea of an Italic extension, but it's still interesting that both Germanic and Italic came up with velar extensions.
I apologize, from what you said, Germanic probably did not extend the root like Italic or Latin did, but I mistakenly assumed that that bit about *gʷʰ was certain in this case. Anyway, assuming a PIE form *ph1wos (accent?), would this likely carry the function of an adverb?
Probably not because -s is the nominative singular ending. Adverbs are not nominals so they would not have such an ending.
Oh, that's right. I'm not very familiar with PIE adverb(ial)s. Can you inform me of what you know of them? Am I correct in saying that the instrumental case of nominals can be used to function like an adverb?
Last edit: 21:54, 28 May 2014
I've noticed that, in terms of the Proto-Indo-European demonstratives, only the masculine and feminine nominative singular forms begin with *s (*só and *séh2, respectively) and that all other forms begin with *t (e.g. the corresponding accusatives *tóm and *téh2m). Could these forms have possibly derived from earlier **stó and **stéh2, which came from original *t- forms via s-mobile?
I doubt it, but I am not an Indo-European linguist so I can't really say more. I do know that a form like *stó would not have lost its s-, and so it really just shifts the problem rather than solve it: if those two forms had *s- why didn't the other forms, and if all of them had *s- why did those two forms keep it while the others lost it? I think the more likely explanation is suppletion, which isn't an uncommon thing with pronouns. The modern Slavic pronouns for example have exactly the same kind of suppletion, with derivatives of *onъ in the nominative but descendants of *jь in all the other cases. This suppletion didn't exist in early Proto-Slavic but developed during the late Common Slavic period, and is still attested in an incomplete way in OCS, so we know it was an innovation and not an archaism. And presumably if this could happen in Slavic 1500 years ago, it could happen to PIE 5000 years ago too.
I was thinking that the two forms with *s would have triggered s-mobile because of their frequency. Alternatively, the original onset could have been *st-, and then only the forms which most frequently occurred at the beginning of the sentence (thereby having no legatamente preceding *-s) preserved this fricative onset, while the rest became deleted (similar to *h1es-si > *h1esi). However, this is just my guess. Also, I don't think I fully understand suppletion. Could you explain how it affects pronouns?
Ok, now I understand. So, do you think there were two Pre-Indo-European demonstratives *só/séh2/sód and *tó/téh2/tód that came to form a single paradigm?
I don't know. *só is kind of odd to begin with because it doesn't have the normal animate nominative ending -s. Some other pronouns also lack it. It's likely that it is a very old word, maybe a holdover from a time before the nominative case existed in its later form. But what the language was like at that stage is anyone's guess.
That's another point; I often wonder where inflectional languages get their inflections, and I tend to convince myself that they developed from more ancient, agglutinative languages. For example, it could be that, in Pre-Indo-European, *só and the nominative ending *-s both contained the morpheme *-s- (e.g. in Ubykh (agglutinative) the same morpheme indicates the first person singular).
I think that the case endings were formed at different times, but the nominative and accusative are probably very old. There is a hypothesis called the Nostratic theory, which doesn't really have much support among linguists, that suggests that the Indo-European and Uralic nominatives are cognate, since they both end in -m.
There are also some possibilities for internal reconstruction, though. It is often suggested that the accusative plural ending -ns was formed from the singular -m with an additional plural ending -s, in which -ms was assimilated to -ns. The ablative ending -ead is thought to have been formed from the thematic vowel -e followed by an adverbial particle *ad (modern English at). Other case endings may have similar explanations, but the more "basic" cases seem harder to explain.
Finnish has a very rich set of endings but some of them are clearly related:
- partitive -(t)a
- essive -na
- inessive -ssa
- elative -sta
- adessive -lla
- ablative -lta
It is generally believed that the latter four were formed from an infix -s- or -l- of some origin, suffixed by the old partitive and essive cases, which originally were ablative and locative in meaning: -s-na > -ssa, -s-ta, -l-na > -lla, -l-ta.
(Did you mean: "that suggests that the Indo-European and Uralic accusatives are cognate, since they both end in -m."?)
Yep, I've heard all about macro-language-family theories, though I don't believe nearly any of them are true. My personal favorite (the one I find most interesting) is Dené-Caucasian, combining Basque, Sino-Tibetan, Dené-Yenisian, and many others. As for Nostratic/Eurasiatic, I believe that the following language families were for a time in very close contact, even when grammatical elements were forming:
- Proto-Pontic/Proto-Northwest Caucasian,
- Proto-Caspic/Proto-Northeast Caucasian,
- Proto-Lyndian, and
However, I believe that none of them are genetically or fundamentally derived from a single proto-language. I have heard of, and I do follow, the internal reconstructions you mention, both in Finnish and in PIE.
Hi again (sorry for bothering you so much), Can you give me some examples of third-person singular neuter pronouns in some Germanic languages (preferably more ancient ones)? Thanks,
Yes, but I forgot to add "personal" to my classification. It seems that *iz is the only one out of those widely used as an "animate" or "personal" pronoun. Is this correct?
The personal pronouns have four sources. West Germanic used *iz and *hiz, Gothic used *iz, while Old Norse used a combination of *sa/þ- and *hanaz which is unattested anywhere else.
Ok, so if you had to guess (or if you know), what would be the hypothetical reflexes of the masculine declension of *iz into Old English (and then to Modern English)?
Well if *hiz became hē, then presumably *iz would have developed into just ē?
I was thinking the same thing, but I thought that if such forms existed side by side then they would develop phonological changes to better distinguish them than the sole presence of the *h would have.
Either that or one or the other would have fallen out of use. Which is... well, what happened. :P
Unfortunately, yes :)
But as for the former, do you know what that process is called? I'm having trouble thinking of known examples.
I'm not sure if I know of any examples. When two words fall together and can no longer reliably distinguished, then either that single word takes on the meaning of both, or the old meaning is retained and new word is used to cover the gap. I'm not aware of a name for instances where another word was changed to make it less similar to another.
Can you give me an example of when a new word is used to cover the gap?
I see. So, if a phonological change happened to **ē to make it dissimilar, could you guess what it potentially would become?
Phonetic changes almost never take such considerations into account. They are kind of at a lower, more basic level, and are not normally affected by the meanings of words. It does sometimes happen, though, that when sound changes make certain words too similar, a language borrows an alternative form from another dialect or even another language. they was borrowed from Old Norse in that way, to replace the original word which had become too similar to he.