User talk:Baron de Saint-Rémy

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Hello, and welcome to Wiktionary. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk (discussion) and vote pages using four tildes, like this: ~~~~, which automatically produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the beer parlour or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Robert Ullmann 20:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


We had been using "Romany" as the standard language name. I agee that Romani is better (and is the name used in IS 639).

You might want to edit Category:Romany with a note to that effect? Robert Ullmann 20:28, 17 October 2006 (UTC)


Is that a variant spelling, or a mistake? Robert Ullmann 22:44, 21 October 2006 (UTC)

It was a mistake, without g is the correct.
Okay, I'll delete the redirect. Thanks. Robert Ullmann 22:59, 21 October 2006 (UTC)


If an entry needs to be removed, please do not blank it! Tag it with {{delete|(reason)}} so it can actually be deleted. (and leave the text there so it is easier to see what is going on) Robert Ullmann 13:08, 31 March 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! So we need to fix tjej? Robert Ullmann 14:38, 31 March 2007 (UTC)
Yes, please.
Likewise fire links to yag. You can follow the What links here in the toolbox to the left. Robert Ullmann 14:46, 31 March 2007 (UTC)


Hello, I was looking at some of our more.....shall we say esoteric languages, and your two Gaulish entries came up. Apparently SIL now divides Gaulish into a number of subcategories (see the Wikipedia article). I was wondering if you might know which division these words would fall into. Thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:05, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Hello, first of all, I'm sorry for this belated answer - I haven't log on in ages, thus I couldn't hear about your message -, but unfortunately I can't help you, because Gaulish is not at all related to my speciality (nor my field of interest). Baron de Saint-Rémy 00:04, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Archaic template and Synonyms[edit]

Hi Máté, glad to see you are adding Hungarian entries. For the archaic entries, please use the archaic template as in retirál instead of the category. Also, the Synonyms section is usually Level 4 (====Synonyms====), although this will be fixed by a bot when the entry is saved. Thanks. --Panda10 00:28, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your informations, in the future, I will act in this way. Baron de Saint-Rémy 11:27, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Etymology templates[edit]

I've fixed your entries (see [1])- you had put Hungarian words into the main Category:German derivations. This only includes English words with a German origin. Using the etyl template I added the 'hu' parameter, putting them into the correct categories. Thanks. Nadando 19:06, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

And BTW Máté, see my modification here on how can you include the meaning gloss with {{term}}, and on how to properly use {{etyl}}; the 2nd parameter should always be the ISO code of language section you are editing (except for ==English==, in which case it is omitted). Cheers! --Ivan Štambuk 21:49, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


Hi Máté, these archaic words were entered a longer time ago without etymology: dzsehennem, hérosz. If you know them, please add. Thanks. --Panda10 13:23, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. Baron de Saint-Rémy 16:20, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
Great. Thanks. There is another one: csehenem. It does have an etymology and it says it's an alternative spelling of dzsehennem. Is that correct? --Panda10 19:28, 7 June 2008 (UTC)
It is possible, that csehenem is a dialectical variation of dzsehennem, inasmuch as the dzs [dʒ] sound can turn into cs [tʃ] in dialetical language (see dzsida -> csida (dialetical), "spear"). But I can neither confirm nor confute its correctness, or existance of the word csehenem. It might be worth to discuss with the author of that page.
Dijan says he can't remember where he got the word, it might be an old pronunciation from the 1800s. Please see the conversation on the two talk pages: User_talk:Dijan#csehenem and User_talk:Panda10#csehenem. There are a few more words with multiple meanings but only one etymology, the other is missing. These are not archaic words, if you feel like working with them, here they are: tűz, ég, íz, ősz, szín, nyár. The Index:Hungarian might be a good place to browse for words, as well, if you are interested. Thanks. --Panda10 19:53, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I will check up these words later on. Baron de Saint-Rémy 21:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks so much for taking care of these!! --Panda10 21:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
You're welcome. Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:54, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


The plural should be rények, not rényok. Would you agree? --Panda10 22:24, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yes of course. It was a typo. Thanks for warning, I fixed it.


In the ety section, is (“‘pslam’”) correctly spelled? Shouldn't it be psalm? --Panda10 21:57, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

Gosh, another typo ... Baron de Saint-Rémy 22:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)


This word was entered by an anon user. I'm not sure if this is correct. Would you mind taking a look at it? Thanks. --Panda10 22:22, 12 June 2008 (UTC)

No, I wouldn't. I never heard about this word, I found it in a manual though ("Foreign words and expressions"), But it gives a slightly different meaning.
I searched in MEK (, in content, not in titles, and found several instances in Jókai's works, but the meaning is more like tündér, I think. What is the meaning you've found? --Panda10 23:02, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Oh, I think I have the same dictionary, as you. I've found it. It's tündér or the soul of the dead bride. --Panda10 23:04, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Here is what I've found on the Hungarian Wikipedia: "Az erdőben villik, szerelemtől meghalt lányok lelkei élnek, akik ha áruló férfira bukkannak az erdőben halálra táncoltatják." Found in the article about Puccini's opera "Le Villi", (Lidércek). --Panda10 23:15, 12 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I was writing the same, but when I finished, you've already written it.


Máté, I've found a few instances where the etymology was added but the header was missing. See zsonglőr, zsiráf‎, zsold, zsúr. I corrected them. To avoid missing headers, I usually work with a simple text file on my PC that contains empty models of entries and I just copy it to the new entry and fill it in with the specifics. This way I don't forget required headers and the syntax will be correct, as well. And by the way, thanks for taking care of the four requested Hungarian translations. Good work. --Panda10 19:47, 13 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeh, I was thinking to create templates to fix this issue (for good). Anyway, thanks for your corrections Panda10, and the nice words. Baron de Saint-Rémy 20:04, 13 June 2008 (UTC)


Is -más a valid suffix? The only words I could think of are állomás, hallomás, látomás, tudomás, vallomás, if they belong in this group at all. Are there more? Is there a front vowel version? --Panda10 13:58, 14 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the interesting information. I created entries for the suffix and for the words áldomás, hallomás, látomás, tudomás. How about állomás and vallomás? Do they belong to this series? They fit the pattern. --Panda10 18:32, 14 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes, they do. Baron de Saint-Rémy 18:53, 14 June 2008 (UTC)


Is -lal a real suffix? Do you know more words with this suffix? Unfortunately, the hu-suffix template can take only the base word and the ending suffix at this point. As you probably noticed, it also puts the word into a category. --Panda10 13:01, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is real. And yes, I noticed the suffix template's "deficiency", I suppose it wasn't really designed for agglutinative languages, like Hungarian. Back to the subjcet, it can act as causative and frequentative suffix as well. For example: fájlal, foglal, hizlal; and some for the front vowel version: érlel, észlel, kérlel, színlel.
Thanks for the examples and the explanation. The hu-suffix template is very new. I created it a few days ago because I thought it would be useful to add words into suffix categories automatically, saving the additional work of typing in the category. Looking at a list of words using the same suffix could be used for many different ways. If you have ideas for improvement, please don't hesitate to let me know. I also would like to add options for a linking vowel and a cagory other than the default "Hungarian words suffixed with...". When a word contains multiple suffixes, I indicated only the last suffix. For example barátságosság = barátságos + -ság, then barátságos = barátság + -os, finally barátság = barát + -ság. Is this an incorrect practice? Would you rather divide each word into their multiple suffixes each time? --Panda10 13:40, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I thought out what you said, and I think your practice is correct, though it produces more work, but inasmuch as every segment has its own meaning, it's ok. Fagylalt is an exception, beacuse fagylal doesn't make any sence - at least to me. Perhaps in these cases, we should keep the root + suffix + suffx (and so on) method. What do you think? Baron de Saint-Rémy 14:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
I don't see how it creates more work to list only the last suffix at any one entry. Can you explain? The word fagylal is no longer used, but it can be still found in older publications and dictionaries. See here for example [2]. It means fagyaszt. If you prefer to list all elements and suffixes in the same entry, that will be fine, in that case just don't use hu-suffix. --Panda10 14:31, 15 June 2008 (UTC)
Never mind. On more work, I meant making entries for each word (like one for fagylal), but I realised it would be necessary anyway.
I changed it to {{hu-suffix|fagylal|t}}
Thanks. It looks better to me. I can create the entry for fagylal. I will try to find a quotation to illustrate it. --Panda10 15:02, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Oops, I had to change something in your message above. Sorry. Normally it is not an acceptable practice to change someone else's notes. When you use a template name in a message, put temp| in it, otherwise, the page (the talk page) will be linked to the template and in the case of hu-suffix, it actually added it to the Hungarian words suffixed with -t category. --Panda10 15:06, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

It's ok, thanks. Baron de Saint-Rémy 15:13, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Compound words[edit]

I've noticed that you use the term template for compound words. It's correct, I just wanted to say that for two-part words it may be a little easier to use the compound template. See my changes in állkapocs. If you use the term template, please add the lang=hu parameter (term|Hungarian|English|lang=hu, the English translation is optional). Thanks. --Panda10 15:00, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, it will be useful. I usually leave the lang=hu parameter from term templates, will those words appear in English categories?
The term template does not put the entry in any category. If you add lang=hu, when the user clicks on the term, it will take him to the Hungarian section of the term. --Panda10 15:23, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

ovális and olíva[edit]

Thanks for adding hyphenation and IPA to the new entries! Two comments. 1. For ovális, I would hyphenate it as ová-lis. 2. I think, oliva is spelled with a long í, please see olívaolaj. When you take the words from the Hungarian requests, please make sure you verify the spelling and meaning. I have no idea how those words were entered. I've found misspellings there. Thanks. --Panda10 18:12, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I'm going to fix that hyphenation. About oliva/olívaolaj, I couldn't find it written in any geniue source, I checked my spelling-book too, but it doesn't mention it. On the internet, it is written both ways, thus I can't decide are they alternatives, or olivabogyó is a common misspelling. Could you confirm it is written with long í? Thanks. Baron de Saint-Rémy 18:45, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
You're right, there are mixed results. I've even searched Google Books, again with mixed output. The Hungarian Wikipedia spells it with a long í (doesn't mean anything, I've seen misspellings there), my Országh Hungarian-English dictionary spells it with a long í - is that considered an authentic resource nowadays? I don't know how else to verify which one is a misspelling. --Panda10 19:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
So Országh speels it with long í. According to this information, I renamed the entry. Thanks for your help. Baron de Saint-Rémy 19:32, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
No problem. I wonder if we should create an entry with short i saying it's a common misspelling of olíva. See bicigli for the syntax. Misspelling pages should not contain wikilinks to exclude these pages from the total page count. --Panda10 20:07, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
I found a long collection of misspellings on a blog, that mentions oliva as a misspelling, I wasn't sure about it, but I think it wouldn't be wrong if we create an entry concerning this. Another thing is, by renaming the entry, I also changed the pronounciation to long í, is this faitful to the way as it pronounced? Baron de Saint-Rémy 21:02, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
It sounds long to me when I pronounce it. I corrected the hyphenation, though: olí-va-bo-gyó, not ol-íva-bo-gyó. There is a Hungarian article about hyphenation here [3]. Have you ever thought about recording words and uploading the audio? --Panda10 21:26, 16 June 2008 (UTC)
Before I started adding hyphenations, I had a look at that page on Wikipédia, looking for a particular rule that stands for the actual word I was typing, but I have to tell, without avail. The natural spelling for me would be o-li-va-bo-gyó, o-vá-lis etc., but this method appears to be wrong as well, or not recommended according to that page, if that so, then where is the key, I can't see it? Anyway, have I ever though about recording words? To be honest, no, I've never, and I'm neither planning to do, it's a good idea though.
O-lí-va-bo-gyó and o-vá-lis are the syllables. Hyphenation is how a word appears in printed text when there is not enough room in one line. It is very close to syllabification with a few restrictions. For example, if the starting and ending syllable is a single vowel, it will not be hyphenated because it does not look good in printed text. So instead of o-lí-va, it's olí-va. If the word is a compound, the separation will be at the natural meaning. For example, szív-ütés, not szí-vü-tés. If a consonant is long, it will be doubled when separated (hosz-szú), etc. Hope this helps. --Panda10 11:45, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, I think I got it now. Baron de Saint-Rémy 12:18, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
My compound example was not clear I think. See jegy-zet-fü-zet. Thanks. --Panda10 12:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)
I made my decision to not struggle with hyphenation any longer. I leave it to somebody else. Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:02, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
No problem at all. I'm just glad you are willing to contribute. Thanks for all your work and cooperation. I really appreciate it, especially the etymology. --Panda10 13:12, 18 June 2008 (UTC)
Don't mention it! Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:18, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Re: kanyar, hajadon[edit]

As far as formatting, I looked at them, they seem fine to me, I made minor changes in kanyar. I usually add ety only for compound and suffixed words, I don't have the expertise to add more information in that area. I assume hajadon is not listed in your ety dictionary. I've also noticed that you've added plural entries, it's great, but that can be done by a bot sometime in the future. I think we should spend our time with adding new lemma entries and cleaning up existing ones, adding etymology, etc. The number of Hungarian words is still relatively low. --Panda10 13:26, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. All right, I will spend more with those words in the Hungarian index. Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:35, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
I've found these references in Google books about hajadon. [4], [5] --Panda10 11:26, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. Baron de Saint-Rémy 15:07, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


Is ünnep really derived from így? --Panda10 18:11, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Ah, never mind. I've read the ety at ünnep. Interesting stuff. Thanks.--Panda10 18:13, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
But still. I think Derived terms is used for grammatical derivations, not etymological. --Panda10 18:14, 19 June 2008 (UTC)
Derived terms removed. Baron de Saint-Rémy 18:25, 19 June 2008 (UTC)


Hi Mate,

[6] - are you sure about this? My etymological dictionary of Croatian says that this Slavic word was borrowed from Hungarian, in which in turn entered from modern Greek. Don't tell me that Hungarian etymological dictionary say that it entered Hungarian from Slavic ^_^ --Ivan Štambuk 19:41, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Then you gonna laugh, because mine says it's borrowed from Croatian. Baron de Saint-Rémy 19:49, 20 June 2008 (UTC)
Fun, fun. OK, I'm gonna put for Slavic that it was possibly influenced/mediated via Hungarian, but that Greek is the ultimate source. --Ivan Štambuk 19:55, 20 June 2008 (UTC)


I think the plural of gyapjú is gyapjak if it refers to sheep, but gyapjúk if it refers to the actual textil made from it. What do you think? --Panda10 14:53, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

That's true. Thanks. Baron de Saint-Rémy 15:41, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

gyapjas mammut[edit]

Can you double check the spelling? I think it's mammut (double m). --Panda10 15:06, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The correct spelling is with single m. According to "The Rules of Hungarian Orthography": mamut, mamutja, mamutagyar, mamutvállalat. Baron de Saint-Rémy 15:25, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I've found examples for both spellings in Google books, but mammut and its derivatives return more hits. Maybe they are both correct. --Panda10 16:09, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
I've found some referencies stating that until 1984 it was spelled as mammut, but when the Akadémia refeshed its orthography book (in 1984) - and I guess the whole Hungarian orthography itself -, mamut became the valid or current spelling. Interestingly, I have two forgein words dictionary, an older one published in 1984, and a newer edition from 2005, and they spell the word different ways - the older as mammut as it was expected. Another example on this analogue is konkurrencia -> konkurencia. So, mammut was correct once for sure, but I can't tell is it acceptable, "archaism", or incorrect nowdays. For example if I would write czukor instead of cukor. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 17:15, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
This is very good information, I wonder if it should be entered somewhere, either in mamut or mammut if you decide to create one with the old spelling (and now misspelling) to explain the situation. On the other hand, I would not create an entry for czukor. :) Thanks for the research. --Panda10 17:37, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
No problem, I think I was a bit forced too, otherwise I wouldn't be able to defend my statement. Anyway, I don't think that I will ever create one for mammut, I didn't expect that gyapjas mamut will be an issue either. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 18:23, 22 June 2008 (UTC)
In the etymology of mamut, I've entered the older spelling. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 08:30, 24 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks! --Panda10 10:42, 24 June 2008 (UTC)

magas sarkú[edit]

I see this as one word a lot instead of two. Is it two words in your spelling dictionary? --Panda10 20:15, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

My dictionary doesn't mention it. It may be that when it's written in two words, that reffers to the shoe's attribute, when written as one, that's the name. Isn't it? --Baron de Saint-Rémy 21:14, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Although, in those English-Hungarian dictionaries where high heels was given, the translation was magas sarkú. [7] --Baron de Saint-Rémy 21:30, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
Yes. Let's leave it as is. I've found this [8] comment on a Hungarian wikipedia talk page. Search for magassarkú, it's somewhere in the middle of the page. --Panda10 22:38, 25 June 2008 (UTC)
I've read it. Thanks for the research. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 09:18, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


I'd like to identify the parts in this word. I think it's a compound of éh + ínség, and the second part is a suffixed word ín+ség. But I'm not 100% sure. I've found this: [9]. Can you help? Thanks. --Panda10 15:35, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

What I found is ínség is really a suffixed form of the obsolate word, ín - "slave", and probably, it already fell into disuse in the Old Hungarian era. Thus ínség originally meant "servility", later on the sense turned into today's living meaning. The root can be found only in ínség. I hope this can help. For the éh + ínség connection, I also think it's a compound of these words. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 16:37, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Oops, servitude, not servility. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 16:40, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for looking into this. The information is very helpful. --Panda10 17:53, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Would you add the second ety to ín? Thanks. --Panda10 18:00, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Done. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 18:17, 29 June 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for your help. --Panda10 18:43, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Hungarian prepositions[edit]

My understanding is that the Hungarian language does not have prepositions. mellé is a postposition and should be in Category:Hungarian postpositions. I'm not sure about kontra, it is listed as a noun in my dictionary. What was your source for the preposition? --Panda10 23:48, 11 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course, mellé is obviously not a preposition - and I was wondering why was it there? My sources list only those senses of kontra, that are nouns (like the type of brake on a bicycle), and I've listed these in its entry under the Noun section. But it is also used in compositions, meaning "against" (e.g. XY. kontra YZ.), and I think in this case, it works as preposition, but that sense doesn't mentioned in my sources. I've looked for this meaning in other languages, and it is listed as preposition. Thus, I've listed kontra's this sense as a preposition too. Even though that other languages list it as prepostition, it may be a wrong approximation. So I can't say my source was geniue. Does your dictionary mention this sense as a noun too?
I'm looking forward to your answer. Thanks. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 10:21, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
About mellé: Tbot created the entry as a preposition because the English original is a preposition. When I reviewed it, I did not change it, only removed the tbot log entry. The postposition header is not standard in Wiktionary, and I was trying to determine what else could be used. But I did not find anything appropriate. I simply forgot to go back and correct it. If you notice something similar in the future, please let me know.
About kontra: I don't have any paper sources for this, but according to this online source, it's an adverb: [10]. Search for kontra on the page. --Panda10 12:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I've requested to delete the category. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 14:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Revising the declension templates[edit]

I am planning to make a change in the declension template parameters. Since the plural is in the name of the template, it will be hard coded, so it will not have to be provided. The hu-decl-k templates were done days ago. I'll start with hu-decl-ök now and will also update all nouns using the template. I will leave a message here again when it's done. I am also planning to add an optional parameter for the -ul/-ül case ending. It is not used as widely, but sometimes it should be there. --Panda10 13:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for informing me. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
The template changes are completed, please use the new parameter order. I am in the process of cleaning up the nouns that use the old parameter order. Thanks. --Panda10 18:25, 13 July 2008 (UTC)


Are you sure about the spelling? Isn't it dzsihád? --Panda10 18:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

In my sources (Dictionary of Forgein Words and Experssions; Idegenszó-tár) it is spelled as dzsihad. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 19:45, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
My dictionary was published in 1989 and spells it dzsihad, as well, but everywhere else it's dzsihád which must be the new spelling. See this book titled published in 2003: [11]. Maybe we should create both and mark dzsihad as alternative spelling, and keep dzsihád as the main entry. What do you think? --Panda10 20:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, I agree with it. My books have confused me when I was making the entry - first time I started with dzsihád, but changed my mind. Either of them is a bit outdated (it's published in 1984), the another was published in 2006, but not by Akadémia Kiadó, thus I left the English entry untouched, thinking maybe I will get to know more on this mess later. I suppose the alternative should not be categorized, right? --Baron de Saint-Rémy 21:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
This is done. Both entry exist, with dzsihad as the secondary entry. A new category is created for alternative spellings. --Panda10 22:07, 13 July 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 22:09, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

-ít verbs[edit]

We could use hu-verb for the -ít verbs, as well, but there is already another system for that. See alapít. Should we stop using hu-suffix in the ety for -ít verbs and start using hu-verb? --Panda10 18:11, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

I think using hu-verb for -ít verbs would be better. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 18:18, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
Ok, so the new direction is adding hu-verb and removing the etymology section with hu-suffix, right? --Panda10 18:22, 19 July 2008 (UTC)
That's right. As I have seen, there isn't so much -ít verb using hu-suffix yet, so the switch won't take long. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 18:28, 19 July 2008 (UTC)


It seems that the declension template does not work well with words ending in double consonants. The standard parameter setup will not work, and the one you added seems to work well except in one form: körömlakkként. Does it spelled with 3 k's? Or should there be a dash? Panda10 12:10, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Oh, I haven't checked every declension. The rule in this case is to separate elements with dash. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 12:36, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

rhodoszi Kolosszus[edit]

I've found different spellings for this and I'm not sure which one is correct. The Hungarian Wikipedia's article is titled Rodoszi Kolosszus, but the reference that they provide at the end of the article spells it Rhodoszi kolosszus. Are both words capitalized or just one (and which one), and what is the official spelling of Rhodosz (Rodosz, Ródosz, Rhodosz)? --Panda10 13:18, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

It has taken me a while to get some information on this Rhodosz/Rodosz question. About the internet we can say that the Rodosz spelling is more common, but that's all what I could find, not even a page that explains what is the offical spelling of Rhodes, the classical with Rh or the Hungarian like. I've looked into my books in the hope that I will find evidences. According to my historical atlas, on those maps that are representing the Ancient Greece, the island's name was Rhodosz, on the rest, where Rhodes was ever mentioned, it was spellt as Ródosz. I've also looked into a guidebook on Greece. The equally called island and city have their own entries, when it talks about the history of the island, the book calls it Rhodosz (the Ródosz variant is mentioned only as it's modern Greek name). In the next entry, the book starts to guide the reader, tells where should (s)he go, what is worth to see etc. the city's name is just Ródosz, and at the begining of the entry, it says: "the city of Ródosz was built on the ruins of ancient Rhodosz".
I was making the entries of Rhodosz and rhodoszi Kolosszus after a book on the seven Wonders of world, and the thought of it is spelled as Rhodosz, because that's how I learned before. My opininion is that the Hungarian Wikipedia fails at that point where it calls the statue Rodoszi Kolosszus, in the light of what I've found, it should be differentiated from the present's city. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 19:40, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
I spent some time with research, too. The results are mixed, just like for you. For example, this webpage lists two books, and there are two different spellings on the same page: [12]. We can leave "rhodoszi" as is, but what about the capitalization? I would prefer either small letters for both words or capital for both words. By the way, if you go back to the Hungarian Wikipedia article, the talk page contains the discussion of the authors about the same. --Panda10 21:14, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Both variations look acceptable for me, too, but after all it's a proper name, I would prefer both words written capital more. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 22:32, 27 July 2008 (UTC)
Capital letters sounds good. Would you make the change? Thanks. --Panda10 22:34, 28 July 2008 (UTC)
Yes, I will. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 22:47, 28 July 2008 (UTC)


This template has been deprecated in favour of {{proto}}. I had listed it at Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Others#Proto Etymon Templates, and was about to delete it when I saw that a couple of new entries (tőr, háj) were using it (I had previously reformatted all the entries which used it). If you disagree with its deletion, please comment at the deletion request, otherwise, it would be appreciated if you could start using {{proto}}. If you have any questions (or would like a quick tutorial on how to use it, it is just a bit complicated), please feel free to ask me. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:19, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Oh, that explains why has the hu:Finno-Ugric category suddenly become empty. Anyway, I have no objection to deletion, I'll use it from now on. Thanks for reminding me of this. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 09:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)


I am trying to find out how to enter this word in Wiktionary. As an independent word or as a prefix used only in other words such as étolaj. If you have any information, please let me know. Thanks. --Panda10 20:53, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Originally, ét was a dialectical word meaning "food" or "eating". It entered to the standard language in the era of neologism, and has mostly been used to create compounds. So, according to my dictionary, it's a noun. That's all what I could find. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 09:53, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
This is good information. Thanks. --Panda10 11:03, 3 September 2008 (UTC)
You're welcome. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 18:07, 3 September 2008 (UTC)


It seems that the two etymologies are the same. Should we list the two senses under one ety to make it simpler? --Panda10 23:56, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it would be good. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 23:58, 27 September 2008 (UTC)


Do you know if the following etymology for délibáb is correct: déli+bába (boszorkány)? Thanks. --Panda10 13:01, 5 October 2008 (UTC) I've found this description in Hungarian: [13]. --Panda10 13:59, 5 October 2008 (UTC)

Yes, déli+bába etymology seems to be correct. Though, according to my dictionary, bába's meaning in this case is illusion, phenomenon. It mentions some dialectical compounds like bábaszarka ("fake magpie"), bábaszilva ("inedible plum") --Baron de Saint-Rémy 15:48, 5 October 2008 (UTC)
It's interesting that your book says bába means illusion in this expression. Especially, because there is an expression used in fairy tailes, "vasorrú bába", that would indicate a witch. Is it possible that bába has three meanings: midwife, witch and illusion? Thanks for adding déli - are you sure in délibáb it means 'southern' and not 'noon'? --Panda10 09:29, 6 October 2008 (UTC)
Indeed, bába has three meanings and the origin of the midwife, witch meanings are well defined. The 'illusion' meaning was mentioned only at the délibáb entry, but the book doesn't define where do this meaning come from or what is the connection between this and the primary midwife meanings. According to the book, déli in délibáb means both 'southern' and 'midday'. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:10, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Accelerated creation of plurals[edit]

Conrad created an accelerated way to create plurals and comparatives (hu-noun and hu-adj was changed). Go to WT:PREFS and tick "Make red-links to some form-ofs fill out entries automatically." (plus the top check box "Use the preferences set on this page" if you've never used this before). The red links will turn to light green and it will take two clicks to create a plural. --Panda10 17:39, 9 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, this will be very handy. Thanks. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 21:16, 9 November 2008 (UTC)


You created template:ancestral, so I thought you might want to know it's been nominated for deletion at Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others#Template:ancestral.—msh210 21:48, 1 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. -Baron de Saint-Rémy 10:18, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Template updates[edit]

FYI: I modified the inflection templates to handle words ending in double consonants, e.g. sakk, lakk, tett. According to the Hungarian spelling rules, sakkal is correct, sakkkal is not and this is what the old template did. From now on, the double consonants have to be provided after the first vertical bar. I corrected all existing words that used a previous technique where we left the first parameter blank: {toll||at} was changed to {to|ll|at}. --Panda10 12:38, 27 December 2008 (UTC)

That's great. Thanks. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:46, 27 December 2008 (UTC)


Hi Máté, do you have a source for the -ike/-ika diminutive suffix pair? I couldn't find any. Is -ikó the third member of this series: házikó, ládikó? Thanks. --Panda10 23:03, 23 January 2009 (UTC)

Hi, I used my etymology dictionary as source. The book mentions this pair of diminutive suffixes separately as a compound of -i and -ka/-ke. The -ikó/-ikő pair is similiar, made of -i and -kó/-kő diminutive suffixes. The front vowel form is demonstrable only in the name Enikő. The book doesn't mention that there would be relation between -ika/-ike and -ikó/-ikő nor between -ka/-ke and -kó/-kő suffixes, although I think this doesn't exclude the chance that they are related.
The etymology of füstike was given as füst + -ike. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:52, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Ok, that's good information. Could you add the Reference section with the etymology dictionary when you have a chance? I will add the Hungarian section to -ika. Thanks. --Panda10 16:23, 24 January 2009 (UTC)
Reference added. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 17:13, 24 January 2009 (UTC)


Would you double check the etymology? I finally got the Etimológiai szótár by Gábor Zaicz which I am really happy about, but it will take time to learn how to translate and enter ety's correctly. Thanks. --Panda10 19:03, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to hear that. So, I've checked and made some minor corrections in the etymology (changed the en parameter to hu in etyl template for Latin, and changed the order for better understanding). If you have any questions please feel free to ask. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 01:22, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. Did you use another dictionary to determine the order? I think the Zaicz dictionary is more for the average reader than for linguists, but I'm hoping that it's still reliable. The last sentence says: "Ezek a jelentések a németből kerültek nyelvünkbe" - so I thought that the German would come first, then the Latin. Obviously, incorrectly. --Panda10 01:44, 1 February 2009 (UTC)
I used the same dictionary. Chronologically it was correct, but the German>Latin order would idicate the word itself was borrowed directly from German. I used the same


Something went wrong on this one ;) --Eivind (t) 12:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

Fixed, thanks. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 12:18, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
Thank you ... --Eivind (t) 12:26, 15 April 2009 (UTC)

biográfia and rezümé[edit]

When you have a chance, would you please check if the etymology was entered correctly? Thanks. --Panda10 15:53, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

Checked and corrected. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 16:30, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for your help. --Panda10 16:39, 3 May 2009 (UTC)
You're welcome. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 17:15, 3 May 2009 (UTC)

androgűn vs. androgün[edit]

There are more hits with ü. Do you have a reliable resource for the spelling? Thanks. --Panda10 21:21, 7 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't have any source for either spelling, I reckon that's the reason why did I spell like that. Anyway I'll correct the entry in no time. Thanks. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 10:15, 8 June 2009 (UTC)

Romani help[edit]

Hi there. Can you double-check my Romani entry for falkono please? Thanks, Razorflame 13:05, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

Checked. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 13:34, 18 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks. How did I do? I only made that definition because it was listed under the translations table and because I was going to make falkono anyways, so I decided to make the Romani entry as well because it was on the same page. Anyways, cheers, Razorflame 13:42, 18 December 2009 (UTC)

kartus and kártus[edit]

In the Hungarian Wikipedia, kartus and kártus mean two different things. Are you sure the translation your entered in cartouche is correct? If we follow the Wikipedia spelling, it should be kártus. --Panda10 13:02, 24 January 2010 (UTC) (Had to correct the Wikipedia link on the first. --Panda10 13:04, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

My main references (Idegen szavak és kifejezések szótára; Idegenszó-tár) didn't distinguish the meanings with different spelling, also those few books I have about Ancient Egypt prefer kartus spelling for the oval hieroglyph. Apparently the Hungarian Wikipeida prefer the other spelling, but I couldn't find any evidence of the a/á distinction in professional usage (etymologically kartus and kártus are just two different transliterations of cartouche). On the few ELTE related sites and documents I found on the internet, they used the foreign cartouche spelling giving 'kartus' as pronunciation [14] or simply kartus [15], [16].
According to those sources, I'm convinced that the translation I entered was correct, but I guess this doesn't exclude the correctness of kártus, because as far as I can recall, I heard that more often in spoken language, TV programmes etc. - N.B. sumer/sumér distinction. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 15:38, 24 January 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation. I have only two dictionaries that contain this word, the Idegen szavak és kifejezések szótára spells it with a, the Országh spells it with á. I searched the Hungarian pages in Google, mixed returns. I accept your reasoning, we can always mention the alternative form in the entry or the spoken form in usage notes. --Panda10 19:05, 24 January 2010 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/2010-04/Voting policy[edit]

Just letting you know of this surprisingly contentious vote. Input from more Wiktionarians such as yourself would be much appreciated. Thanks. – Krun 09:33, 22 May 2010 (UTC)

Perso-Arabic script[edit]

Hello there. If you need help or are unsure about spellings in Ottoman Turkish while using the Perso-Arabic script, please ask for help. I'm not sure how many etymologies and entries you have created using the script, but I've found a few mistakes. Like I said, if you need help let me know, but try not to create entries unless you are sure how to use the script. Thanks. --Dijan 21:59, 26 May 2010 (UTC)

Hello Dijan. My appologies for the errors I made. I can assure you that I don't intend to create more entries - especially now that I know I used wrong character coding I assume. The only entries I've created with the Ottoman Turkish script were اوطه‌لق ,ﻗﺮﺑﺎﭺ (and چزمه‌جی which you already took care of), please, have a look at these if you haven't yet. If I will use the script for etymologies again - which is unlikely considering the small number of Ottoman Turkish words in Hungarian -, I will certainly consult with you. All the etymologies I added with the script are listed here: [17] --Baron de Saint-Rémy 10:07, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Declension error on "arcszín"[edit]

There's an error on the declension on the noun "arcszín", Baron. I noticed it. Thank you, because I'm letting you know. - Lo Ximiendo 02:58, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 15:36, 26 October 2010 (UTC)

No problem, I also gave the Hungarian verb "címez" a definition that I figured out about from the French language version of that page. - Lo Ximiendo 20:47, 26 October 2010 (UTC)


Are you sure about the translation? The Hungarian meaning is "zavaros, kellemetlen helyzet". Muddle means something different. --Panda10 15:53, 24 December 2010 (UTC)

First off, Happy Holidays! I used a 2003 Országh-Magay concise dictionary as a base for the entry, the complete entry goes like "kalamajka fn biz muddle; biz jam, fix, szép kis ~! fine kettle of fish". To be sure, I looked up some of my dictionaries and the meaning for kalamajka is mainly given as "zűrzavar, kavarodás" (I reckon muddle corresponds to this sense), and "baj, kellemetlenség". But I admit my entry is not nearly complete and requires a clear up. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 01:45, 25 December 2010 (UTC)
Thanks, Máté. Happy Holidays to you, too! And best wishes for the new year. --Panda10 12:34, 25 December 2010 (UTC)


Hi, I think this is a compound word, not a past participle. --Panda10 22:47, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

I've corrected the entry. Thanks for the notification. --Baron de Saint-Rémy 23:12, 13 January 2011 (UTC)


Hi Máté, would you mind checking this edit? Assertions of that kind (no matter which of the two) might depend on political views and native speakers should agree on which version satisfies NPOV best. -- Gauss 16:52, 19 March 2011 (UTC)


Hi, can you please check the translation of one-handed. Does félkezű meaning "having only one hand"(He's one-handed because they cut off his left hand) or "using one hand" (Szczensky made a one-handed save) --Rockpilot 18:47, 24 September 2011 (UTC)

Yes, it does mean "having only one hand". --Baron de Saint-Rémy 00:19, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

hátrakötöm a sarkad[edit]

Hi, Baron, is hátrakötöm a sarkad a good entry? And is it good to keep it? —Stephen (Talk) 06:12, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi there. Well, it's a valid, colloquial expression said to a misbehaving child. It could be rendered into English as 'I'll give you what for' (literally means: I'll tie your heels behind your back). I think it's ok to keep the entry, but it needs a little clean-up. --Baron de Saint-Rémy (talk) 08:50, 28 February 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, sounds good to me! —Stephen (Talk) 08:59, 28 February 2012 (UTC)


Hello, Baron. Have you ever thought about expanding the above entry and a few others? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 13:43, 28 November 2012 (UTC)

Hi, there. I do expand entries every now and then. I haven't particularly thought of maláta, but since you have brought it up, I expanded the entry. --Baron de Saint-Rémy (talk) 18:35, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
By the way, have you also thought of using the template {{unk.}} for words with unknown etymologies? Declension for mancs, please? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:38, 28 November 2012 (UTC)
P.s. I'm not sure about the status of that template (whether it's discontinued or not). --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 21:40, 28 November 2012 (UTC)


Hi, I was just curious where you find Old French clinche, as I've been unable to find it. Just curious, nothing urgent. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:56, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Hi there, I made the entry according to my Hungarian etymological dictionary (Gábor Zaicz, Etimológiai szótár: Magyar szavak és toldalékok eredete, 2006, ISBN 963 7094 01 6. The book I got states that "kilincs" is probably a French loanword, more closely Old French (I guess, because of the final t͡ʃ sound instead of ʃ), it brings up Modern French clench, and Old French clinche for comparison. The earliest written record of the Hungarian word is from 1405. More detailed Hungarian dictionaries (such as Loránd Benkő, A magyar nyelv történeti-etimológiai szótára, 1967-1976, ISBN 963 05 3770 2 also mention that clinche is a north, northeast word, and it entered the Hungarian language via Walloon settlers.
Here are some references I've found online: [18] [19][20] [21] [22]
--Baron de Saint-Rémy (talk) 14:59, 5 March 2013 (UTC)


Could you please comment on that question there? Thanks in advance! 10:01, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


Could you double check my updates in the etymology section? I used Zaicz's etymology dictionary, just want to make sure it's correctly translated. Thanks in advance. --Panda10 (talk) 11:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi! Some examples had to be fixed (I'll explain why), otherwise you did everything all right. It's a bit unfortunate that the Zaicz only gave the approximate phonetic values for certain words, and not transcribed them in their respective scripts (including Greek, any language that use the Arabic script, non-Slavic languages that use their version of the Cyrillic script, dialectal words, etc.) so the job falls on us to find/use the correct written forms of those words (if possible). In this particular case, the dictionary rendered the Uzbek word as "tilmåč", but in the actual Uzbek alphabet it is written as "tilmoch".
If the dictionary mentions an "Ótörök" or "Türk" word, use the Proto-Turkic template, otherwise the regular Turkish template is OK. --Baron de Saint-Rémy (talk) 21:06, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Thank you for your help! --Panda10 (talk) 21:20, 10 August 2013 (UTC)


Hi! What do Hungarian dictionaries say as to the origin of this word? Current etymology says it's from a Slavic language (added by Drago), but some other sources claim it can't be from Slavic and it's from Turkic instead. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 11:01, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It's also not listed in this awesome paper which aims to be a reference of all (possible and probable) Slavic borrowings into Hungarian. I'll be adding Hungarian etymologies from that work, so if you have time/interest feel free to check my Hungarian edits for blunders.. --Ivan Štambuk (talk) 13:52, 24 August 2013 (UTC)