User talk:Thryduulf/archive 1

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Great Job with Bakerloo! I like how you also linked it to wikipedia. Pupster21 same account on Wikipedia.11/30/06 6:33 PM


I think that the train units should be at Pacer rather than at pacer. SemperBlotto 13:50, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

permanent way[edit]

You don't need the explicit category "rail transportation" if you have the context tag for it -- see permanent way. Cynewulf 14:38, 15 May 2007 (UTC)


Wiki-thanks.png Just saying hello, and nice to see you here. :-) Dmcdevit·t 02:11, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah, I seem to alternate between the projects at random. Wiktionary can be an oasis; the closest I get to politics here is arguing about proper noun inclusion. Feel free to stick around, and ask me any questions you have. Dmcdevit·t 02:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Related terms[edit]


You seem to have a misapprehension about the "Related terms" header. We use it for terms that are related etymologically; for example, metal, medal, and mettle are all related terms, as are price, prize, and praise, but newsgroup and usenet are not. Does that make sense?

(All this sort of information is laid out in detail at Wiktionary:Entry layout explained, if you're interested.)

RuakhTALK 05:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

P.S. No one seems to have given you the stock welcome message, which has a lot of useful information; if you like, you can check it out at Template:welcome. :-) —RuakhTALK 05:23, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Translations to be checked[edit]

Hi, Thryduulf! When you make ttbc-lists, it would be nice if you created the translation tables at the same time. Hekaheka 09:15, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Entry: Intercrural - corrections[edit]

Thanks for fixing the formatting on my (first) wiki-entry. I think I unfixed it, in error, I think we were both working on it at the same time. However - I didn't think Anatomy was needed as a catagory or, if it was, I wanted it after English and Adjectives and the same applies for the Latin catagory as it only applies the etymology and too many words could be said to be Latin derivations for it to make a useful catagory. Do you how to get my catagories in order of relevance and/or do you know anyone who can check my IPA pron.? Also my first attempt. I intend to get more involved and sorry for re-correcting your work, I thought it was some kind of auto-correction at the time. Ta.--Kylemew 21:20, 29 June 2007 (UTC)


Thanks man, that was helpful and I'll try to remember to sign in future. Wiktionary is a fantastic project and, along with other wikis, has rekindled my faith in the human race. Thought you might be interested to know that the entire OED online is available free for the next 48 hours - something to do with a BBC program I thnk - and again from the 6th July. Its massive and great fun. Let other people know too if you think they'd dig it, it normally costs a fortune. its here. If that doesn't work use this--Kylemew 21:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC) Ta



I just thought I'd let you know about Wiktionary:Quotations, which explains how we format quotations here. Thanks for your help with verifying glad rags (among other entries). :-)

RuakhTALK 19:09, 2 July 2007 (UTC)


Hi, I see you've been a Wikipedia admin for two years. Would you feel comfortable holding the admin handles here already? If still ongoing, your transition to this project has been fairly painless, but I thought I'd check with you anyways, just to get an opinion before charging ahead. DAVilla 19:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Well I see you haven't been white-listed yet, which is a new process by the way, so I'll take that as the first step. DAVilla 20:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)
Okay, I've nominated you; please accept. DAVilla 13:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Possessive forms exclusion WT:VOTE rewritten and restarted[edit]

I have rewritten and restarted the vote, having attempted to reword the proposal to address the issues that people have raised. You may want to reread the proposal and reconsider your vote. † Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 20:06, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Per your notice on another talk page[edit]

This user is blocked an wouldn't be able to respond to your notice. DAVilla 17:45, 11 July 2007 (UTC)

re: template:en-noun and regular possessive forms of modern English nouns[edit]

I do not understand very of English, therefore I will not go to vote. Debtor for the invitation. Luan 18:29, 14 July 2007 (UTC)

Welsh mutations[edit]

I have been thinking that the header should be Mutation by analogy to Inflection/Conjugation/Declension, rather than "Mutations". Indeed the table heading says "Mutation". What do you think? Robert Ullmann 14:43, 15 July 2007 (UTC)

(hmm, dislike having conversations in two places ;-) changed the AF control table to change it routinely to Mutation. Robert Ullmann 20:59, 15 July 2007 (UTC)
You started using Mutation in a few cases before I had fixed the table, and AF "corrected" them ... ;-) I put them back. Robert Ullmann 11:57, 16 July 2007 (UTC)
See User Talk:AutoFormat and User:Robert Ullmann/Welsh Mutations ;-) Robert Ullmann 13:28, 23 July 2007 (UTC)

smell the barn[edit]

Hello Thryduulf -- I noticed that you inserted {{en-verb}} and expanded this expression to show all the inflections. I had done the same thing when I originally created this entry on June 14, but then along came Connel MacKenzie who promptly removed the inflections and told me that this is not done with expressions like this (see here). Personally, I prefer the inflections in, although I recognize that the top line can get a bit cluttered. -- 13:44, 20 July 2007 (UTC)

smelt a noun[edit]

Hi man. Following up on your stuff on catagories, I went to smelt where you have entered the metal melting definition as a verb and a noun. I cannot see how it is a noun and I will change this if you agree. I left a note on the word's talk page too. Like your thoughts on recatagorisation by the way. Cheers. --Kylemew 11:53, 25 July 2007 (UTC)



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Again, welcome!

I’m really surprised that noöne had done that yet. Thryduulf, please direct me to the various Welsh templates that are used in this Wiktionary — I’m going to need them tomorrow and I really ought to get ‛round to learning to use them. † Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 01:14, 2 August 2007 (UTC)


Congratulations, you are now in control of an extra selection of buttons. Please add your information to the list at WT:A and don't hesitate to ask any of the veteran sysops if you have any questions about how to proceed. I recommend reading such pages as Help:Sysop_tools and WT:BLOCK as you begin. Dvortygirl 04:02, 6 August 2007 (UTC)


Hey there, I was just wondering what was up with your recent edits to Wiktionary:Whitelist? Do you need instructions for how to edit User:Connel MacKenzie/patrolled.js? —RuakhTALK 21:31, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

It's really not so bad; the whitelist is within a user JavaScript, but you don't need to modify actual code. Just visit User:Connel MacKenzie/patrolled.js, click the "edit" link, scroll down to the whitelist (if you have a decent browser, you can do this by hitting Ctrl+F and searching for function wiktWhiteListed(), and add or remove the relevant user by adding a comma followed by the username in the right place in alphabetical order. (N.B. The comma is essential.) Replace any spaces in the username with underscores. For IP addresses, use the IP address as the username. The only tricky thing is if the username has weird characters in it, in which case the simplest thing is to actually visit the user page and copy the right part of the URI. If nothing else, keep in mind that enough admins are watching that page that you can't make a long-lived mistake. Go ahead, give it a try! :-)   —RuakhTALK 21:44, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
I agree with Ruakh: please give it a try. I don't share the opinion that "it's not so bad" though.  :-)   It is messy, messy code you have to scroll past to get to the whiletlists. --Connel MacKenzie 21:55, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
Well I've given it a go. As I don't read JavaScript, the code could be as messy as the aftermath of a tornado or as clean and sparkling as a mountain stream and I wouldn't know the difference! Thryduulf 21:59, 11 August 2007 (UTC)
It looks perfect. :-)   —RuakhTALK 22:05, 11 August 2007 (UTC)

Vote restarted[edit]

Per your vote on Wiktionary:Votes/2007-06/Level of basic headings, there was an error in option 5 that has been corrected, and a new option was added under it with subsequent renumbering. DAVilla 13:31, 16 August 2007 (UTC)

I.e INVALIDATED. Make a new page and start again. Modifying it COMPLETELY invalidates it.

Thryduulf, if you could vote (again) on the original text fo L4 sequence? Sorry about this. Robert Ullmann 23:54, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

out of bounds[edit]

It's been a few days of dormancy at Wiktionary:Tea room#out_of_bounds_.28noun.29 so I thought I'd let you know I've now commented there. I'm not checking this your talk page for a response.—msh210 01:18, 17 August 2007 (UTC)

ought to[edit]

Hi. I see you took out the link from ought to ought to. I was following your tea room suggestion:- Remember to link to ought to from ought as well if you do it though. How ought I (to) do this correctly, please? ;-) -- Algrif 17:23, 19 August 2007 (UTC)

I didn't intend to do that! I only intended to correct the heading level from L3 to L4 in response to the AutoFormat edit, and didn't notice that wasn't all I'd done until I saw your message. Anyway, I have reinstated it now, thanks for the heads up. Thryduulf 22:24, 19 August 2007 (UTC)
np :-) -- Algrif 09:44, 20 August 2007 (UTC)


Over in BP you wrote:

They aren't a Wiktionorian (or even a Wikimedian), but I do have a friend who is fluent in British Sign Language (BSL), which can be very different to ASL (e.g. the letters of the alphabet signs use two hands in BSL, but just one in ASL AIUI). I might be able to get some video of her that she'd be happy to release under the GFDL and/or similar, but I can't promise anything. Thryduulf 09:04, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

Any luck?—msh210 17:06, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Not yet, and its not looking promising in the short term - not least as the only video camera I have access to is kaput. :( Thryduulf 18:32, 6 September 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism in progress[edit]

Hi Thryduulf. Please block User:SpongeBob for vandalism (unless Ruakh’s got there already). Thanks. † Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 21:06, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

No matter. Looks like Ruakh dealt with it. † Raifʻhār Doremítzwr 21:15, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

For information only that I found on the web[edit]

This is really a Wikipedia issue, but it relates to Cardiff Arms Park and whether the Millennium Stadium should have been merged or not....the end result is fine, I agree the two articles should be separate, but I found this site on the web clearly under the logo of the Millennium Stadium it says "Cardiff Arms Park"...anyway it is FYI only89.240.66.194 22:20, 19 September 2007 (UTC)

Hi from a contemporary[edit]

Hi - just added myself to here and noticed we're contemporaries. Poetlister, 17:07 GMT, 25 September 2007



I don't suppose you could take a look at Talk:personage? Let me know if this should be handled differently.

RuakhTALK 04:37, 28 October 2007 (UTC)


An edit like this [1] is backwards. The {{a}} template should come at the front of the line to identify all the pronunciations on the line. If it is placed at the end, people won't notice it. --EncycloPetey 15:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Cheers for that. I've seen it done both ways, but I'll make sure I put it at the front from now on. As there are lots of entries out there with it at the end of the line, I'll edit any that I come accross when editing the page otherwise, but I'll not go on a hunt for them. It might be something that AutoFormat can handle when it visits a page though. Thryduulf 16:36, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
Also, is there a specific place the {{qualifier}} should appear and/or a set order for {{IPA}}, {{SAMPA}} and {{enPR}} renderings? Thryduulf 16:43, 5 March 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand about your {{qualifier}} question; could you elaborate a bit? As for enPR, IPA, etc., I put them in alphabetical order and that's how it usually seems to be done. So, enPR comes first (when it's there at all), followed by IPA, then SAMPA. --EncycloPetey 00:50, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
re: {{qualifier}}, should this be at the start of the line or the end? i.e.
{{a|UK}} {{qualifier|verb}} /blah/
or {{a|UK}} /blah {{qualifier|verb}}? Thryduulf 01:03, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
Neither. If there are multiple pronunciations, and these depend upon the part of speech, then there should be more than one Pronunciation section. See predicate for an example of how I handle these situations. --EncycloPetey 03:05, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Rhymes octopus[edit]

Rhymes in English are not based solely on the last syllable. The rhyme includes everything from the vowel of the primary stress syllable. So, octopus is inlikely to have rhymes, since it it stressed on the first syllable. See Rhymes:English for more information. --EncycloPetey 03:04, 7 March 2008 (UTC)


I noted that you had visited Wikispecies. I'd love to figure out how to get some meaningful cooperation with them for tighter linkage with Wiktionary to mutual content- and traffic-building benefit. DCDuring TALK 19:22, 10 March 2008 (UTC)


Following is the material that illiminated the meaning of the word for me:

Writers very often mystify matters by using words that are not intelligible to their readers. Some with the air of classical knowledge will tell us that "hwyl" is an "afflatus;" and -i good many readers win ask, "What is an afflatus?" They may as wea aver that "hwyl" is a kind of atmospheric disturbauce caused by windmills. It Is mere rhetorical enthusiasm. It is a nautical metaphor. "Hwyl" is a "sail;" and when the Welsh say that a man is In a good "hwyl," they mean that he is moving along or enjoying himself immensely, navigating gloriously on a sea of good feeling. When a man enters into a discussion of a subject enthusiastically, he is said to be "sailing" into it, which is exactly the Welsh idea of "hwyl." It is somewhat akin to spread-eagleism in politics. The Welsh word "hwyl" Is used generally in a good and, par excellence, In a religious sense. There is, however, one peculiar characteristic of mis hwyl which is especially Welsh. This is the peculiar cadences of the Welsh preacher when he is on the high sea of inspiration, when in a grand breeze and with all sails spread, he moves majestically to the goal of his sermon.
b.g.c. has a couple of other illuminating hits on "hwyl". DCDuring TALK 04:01, 24 March 2008 (UTC)


So, that's what it's called! Thanks, --EncycloPetey 01:37, 25 March 2008 (UTC)


Please take a look at Category:Ancient Greek nouns, and click on λ. This is why I have refrained from categorizing it. Would you be willing to revert? I realize that we generally want each and every entry categorized, but certainly exceptions could be made. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:43, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I see what you mean and have undone the categorisation. I know the sort order can be changed, which might enable us to fudge the categorisation by filing it so it is not going to disturb other words (perhaps by making it alphabetically last or something), but is there a better way than this? Thryduulf 04:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Many thanks. And yes, sorting it with something that places it at the end is not a bad idea. I'm not quite sure how that would be accomplished. I suppose a lot of other non-Latin scripts come after the Greek characters; I'll have to think about that. Another solution I've been considering is moving it to an even further truncated title. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
Oh, and I don't know if anyone here would be capable of doing an audio for any Ancient Greek word. I certainly can't produce the requisite phonemes, and I've never quite figured out how to properly do tonal accents. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:45, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
My comment was intended in a tongue-in-cheek manner, but I'll bear in mind about Ancient Greek audio pronunciations being unlikely as it wasn't something I was aware of. Thryduulf 04:10, 26 March 2008 (UTC)
I sort of figured this was the case, but wasn't sure, so I thought I'd at least make a note on it. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:23, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Dirigist and its English cognates[edit]

Thanks for your improvement of the dirigist entry and getting the {rfap} squared away. Would you please look at the related terms list on dirigisme also? I have made minor contributions to the dirigisme and dirigist entries, but there is one other related term that I have not done so but needs attention: dirigiste. I've never seen the singular form in my reading, but that doesn't mean it isn't used with that spelling. As you saw in the dirigist entry, I did supply the quotation with the example of plural usage dirigistes as part of an entry that you modified to a singular form in the dirigist entry. As you can tell, I know very little about parts of speech and dictionaries but I do run into interesting words from time to time in the social science literature and try to help Wiktionary with additions of examples. Cheers, N2e 12:59, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Thryduulf for your quick response and help! N2e 23:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Mutation headers[edit]

Hmmm... having a separate "Mutation" header sounds like a good idea, but it should be level 3 rather than level 4 since the mutations don't depend on the part of speech. In other words, where a noun and a verb are homographs, their mutations are homographs too. Angr 17:17, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Well... I have difficulty keeping my temper when talking to him, so we'll just keep it at level 4. Angr 17:37, 6 April 2008 (UTC)
It's just not a big enough deal to me. If the bot changes Mutation headers to level 4, so be it. I don't care enough either to try to talk to him or to bring it up at the beer parlor. Angr 17:55, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

head and -head and head-[edit]

I would have thought that railhead and others using head as a suffix would be shown as derived from the suffix -head. There seem to be more than 20 entries like that. I don't think that the terms that are hyphenated or with separate words would be shown that way. I suppose that a term like headquarters ought to be shown as derived from a prefix head-, but I'm not so sure about that. -head and -hood have some relationship. -head is also missing a sense, IMO. OTOH, there are plenty of cases where words are combined without it seeming appropriate to call either of the combining words either a prefix or a suffix. Before I go further with this I'd like at least one other person's PoV. DCDuring TALK 15:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

The thing is rail head is not using head in any of the senses listed in -head but in the sense of "the top (uppermost part) of something" [[[head]], noun sense 5]. I'm not certain that we have the sense defined at head that either sense of railhead uses; the second sense is possibly related to the "source of a river" but there doesn't seem to be a general "the end of something" sense? Thryduulf 16:15, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

-head is incomplete. At the very least it needs something that refers to head and incorporates those senses by reference. head also reamins incomplete despite the considerable progress. It is a good example of some of the hardest words, the really old common ones, with layers of figurative usage in many contexts. MW3 and Collegiate both have a sense: "both ends of something with indistinguishable ends", using "drum head" and "bridge head" as examples. Would that fit? How about -head as in bulkhead or even beachhead? Or "head" as in cape? I think I like the source-of-a-river sense for railhead because railroads have often been built from ports, following rivercourses, with branches often terminating in rather remote places (jerk-water towns!) at higher elevations. DCDuring TALK 16:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
holy-moly. I just found my first outright error in MW3. The define bulkhead line erroneously to be the line beyond which a pier could not project. That is pierhead line. I just confirmed that bulkhead line is the line for solid fill. Their def. of pierhead is correct, by the way. DCDuring TALK 16:51, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I think railhead, in the sense of a goods loading point, is could well be related to beachhead, at least in terms of the sense of -head being used. Unfortunately I'm the best part of 200 miles away from my dead-tree reference books until Monday so I can't see what they say unfortunately.
If this is the case, should we split railhead into separate etymology sections? Thryduulf 18:26, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
I don't think that "both ends of something with indistinguishable ends" applies to any of the rail transport senses, as in all cases it is very easy to distinguish ends. Thryduulf 18:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)
At least you are not 200 miles from an internet connection. I was thinking of equivalent terminuses. Hmm, gee, err, well I guess I don't like the idea of creating separate etymologies when the etys are so close, though I have done so in cases not quite this similar. As I think about it, I'm less and less sure that it is very productive to call head a suffix as it is arguably, well, if not the head morpheme of the words in question, then at least co-equal with "rail". I may need to get good linguistics and lexicography dictionaries and a good grammar, if not Huddleston, then Quirk, to help me with this kind of question. DCDuring TALK 21:20, 9 April 2008 (UTC)


Are you yourself some kind of "railhead" (head sense 41, extension of 40)? In my youth I was greatly interested in trains and still occasionally amuse myself as with w:NYW&B and on visits to Colorado. DCDuring TALK 00:50, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Suffixes - Thanks![edit]

Thank you for changing those Uzbek suffixes for me. I try to be more careful with format from now on!

Winged eel 05:06, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, one more thing. Right now, when I look at the category Category:Uzbek nominal affixes, all of the entries are stored under "-" instead of which letter they begin with. Is this how it is supposed to be, or should they be reorganized by the first letter in the entry? I would just like to clarify before I add any more entries. Thank you.

Thanks again! I will redo the listings now. Winged eel 09:42, 12 April 2008 (UTC)


I don't even remember writing that comment, but thank you for adding the photo. I'm sure I know why I wrote it, though. I used to be a drum major in my youth and parade announcers would often take it upon themselves to know more than the comment cards and announce me as a "drum majorette" or "majorette". I have nothing against majorettes, of course, but it's not what I did.

AF and rfc-tsort[edit]

Hi, thanks for looking at these!

I've added code to AF to handle (some, most?) of the cases of checktrans followed by trans-top or top, so we don't have to fix these manually.

I've also removed the bar on ()'s in language names; they shouldn't be there, but do not affect the ability to sort. They are better caught by the list at User:Robert Ullmann/Trans languages (which, note, is seriously out of date because we don't have a current dump). When starting from that list, one can work through all of a particular problem case systematically.

Thanks for highlighting any oddities. Robert Ullmann 14:16, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't bother with the Trans lang list until we get a new dump. Robert Ullmann 15:06, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

Mismatched wikisyntax[edit]

The program is in the process of rechecking vs the "live" wiki; there is a lot that has changed in the last 45 days, and I've just fixed some bugs. So it is going to rewrite the report presently. If we want sections to strike, I'll have to add it into the code; else they'll keep going away ...

I figure I can just re-run it every day or two if people are working on it, and the fixes will be reflected. Robert Ullmann 16:34, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to be tripping over edits; I was still fixing a lot of stuff; I've put the headers in, and will run it again. From that point, it should be okay if you and others section edit and strike things, while the program is run to update the whole thing once in a while. Thanks, Robert Ullmann 17:21, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
Okay, good now. Robert Ullmann 19:03, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the quick pronunciation help![edit]

raison d'etre has been a difficult word for me to pronounce for years (I don't have need to use it much, and generally sound foolish when I do). But YOU solved it in under 30 minutes after my request. I've practiced it 30 times now and think I've got it. THANKS! N2e 03:00, 4 May 2008 (UTC)


If you're not too busy, I'd like to you check out Connel MacKenzie and see if he still fits the administrative bill. After all those personal attacks (thanks for defending me, btw), I doubt he is as fit to be an administrator. Just look at some of the cases on Wikipedia; admins have been blocked immediately for not following NPA. However, User:Ruakh insists that "it's not going to happen" and "he does more good than harm", so I figured a review would be necessary. :) Teh Rote 20:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Some links to previous concerns with Connel, please also see his contributions, user pages, his bots and their contributions, without which Wiktionary would be a long way from where it is now. Wiktionary:Votes/2008-02/Reprimand of User:Connel MacKenzie - Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/January_06#Complaint_against_Connel - Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/January_06#A_further_complaint.2C_unrelated_to_the_one_above.2C_against_Connel - Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/2007/August#How_I_intend_to_treat_User:Connel_MacKenzie_in_future - WT:RFD#User:Richardb/Monitoring Overzealous Admin - Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/2008/February#Lack_of_.7B.7Bunblock.7D.7D_or_other_recourse. Also his talk page. Conrad.Irwin 20:23, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Photo Rights[edit]

I work for a book publisher and I'd like to discuss photo rights offline. I can be reached at carol(dot)harrison(at)keyporter(dot)com.

Greek etymologies[edit]

I've noticed that you've been doing some nice cleanup with etymologies. One thing to keep in mind that nearly all English words from "Greek" are from Ancient Greek (grc), with only a very small handful from Greek (el). When you see {{Gk.}}, for example, you can quite safely switch it to {{etyl|grc|en}}. This distinction eludes most (probably because few etymological dictionaries makes such a distinction, nor need to, simply saying "Modern Greek" when it comes up). However, on a multilingual dictionary such as ours, I think it an important distinction to make. Many thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:00, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Input appreciated[edit]

If you are now able to, it would be much appreciated if you could comment here. Thanks for your time so far, Knepflerle 11:29, 25 July 2008 (UTC)


Hi Thryduulf,

Thanks for adding a pronunciation to [[catenary]], but I'm confused: does British English allow a schwa to be stressed like that? Because American English certainly doesn't, and I didn't think British English did, either.

23:03, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Hi there[edit]

Yes, there is a Wikipedia policy against it, but due to alternate situations, it is not dissallowed here (currently). I would have subst'd it, except when I did that before, it took up about four lines of text, so I was in fact told to subst it. There is also an administrator here doing the same thing, so hopefully it isn't that bad. ;) --nwspel tork kontribz 15:03, 31 July 2008 (UTC)


Thought you might be interested. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:42, 5 August 2008 (UTC)


-Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:14, 11 August 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for the effort on this. So, to oversimplify, it is the transfer from the following to. Glad I noticed the possibility. A question is whether the explanation and "t" pronunciation should be at used to (which certainly would need it) and unused to (not sure it merits a separate entry). If the explanation belongs at unused, it should also be at used. Also b.g.c. shows nearly 200 raw hits for useta, which is certainly good eye-dialect representation of the speech I grew up with and usually hear in NYC. If you agree, I'd be willing to do the work, which you could improve at your leisure. DCDuring TALK 17:22, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Manual etymon language template reformatting[edit]

First of all, let me say thanks for all the work you've done with this project. However, a thought: The standard etymon language templates are far too numerous to be done by hand, we really need a bot on this one. The community reaction seems to be positive enough, so I think it'll happen in time. However, there are templates, such as {{IE.}} and {{Ger.}}, which must be switched to {{proto}} instead of {{etyl}}. These cannot be switched by bot. I wonder if your extensive manual labor might be better served with them. Bear in mind that it is just a thought, I have absolutely no problem getting the transition to etyl done sooner than later. If the con-langs aren't your cup of tea, I'll bother you no further. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:30, 17 August 2008 (UTC)


According to the etymology you added, this is an English word. You need to use {{etyl | la | de}}. --EncycloPetey 17:44, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation sections[edit]

Thank you very much for excellent starting points. Digging into these has been an issue.

Note that I am running the update on the report page every day or so; I know that is it satisfying to be able to reduce the page, and not have it constantly reloaded, but for now I am changing things rapidly. It will get more stable. Robert Ullmann 02:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Another note: it says the total is 8000+, but there are still classes of "problems" that should be excluded, the number will come down. Robert Ullmann 12:05, 28 August 2008 (UTC)

Having added a small number of rules to AF, and excluding those. the total now is 2441, and a goodly number of those will go with several more obvious rules. Robert Ullmann 17:33, 28 August 2008 (UTC)
Don't bother with the simple tables for now; I'm going to see what I can pattern-match, and then we can sort what is left. I was doing this earlier, but was interrupted (taking a sister to hospital; all is fine now :-), but now it is 4AM here. Will run a bit of semi-automation later today. Robert Ullmann 00:47, 30 August 2008 (UTC)
I've sorted out some dozens of tables where I could make a pattern for more than 1. Done for now; so I'll stop updating the exception report every hour ;-) Those that are left need personal attention. Robert Ullmann 18:20, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Dotted etymology templates[edit]

I know that you were replacing lots of old etymology templates with their generic {{etyl}} counterparts (thank you by the way). When you listed them on Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Others#Dotted_etymology_templates you didn't show the code you were using. I just editted that section to show the proper codes to use. Could you go back and make sure that's what you were using? Thanks. Cheers. --Bequw¢τ 06:39, 29 August 2008 (UTC)

Regular English verbs ending in e[edit]

Thank you for the note about using the short forms of the en-verb template. The problem is, I haven't figured out what I need to type to use the short form so I just use the long form. Also, I figure programs going through the XML dumps will be able to find strings if I spell them out better than if I use the short forms. I don't see a problem with the verbose method so I just use that. RJFJR 18:45, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

Garage pronunciation[edit]

I actually did mean to enter the <ɒ> for garage, but I'm not really certain that's the right way to do it.

I'm not certain to what degree this differs from the typical US <ɑ>, or to what extent we should be expressing the phonetic differences between US and Canadian vowels in a phonemic pronunciation placed between slashes /.../. The Canadian Oxford Dictionary uses the same <ɒ> for this pronunciation—their scheme is not perfectly standard, and their key includes a cat, ɑ arm, ɒ hot.

Any advice? Michael Z. 2008-08-30 23:30 z


The US pronunciation of the adjective seems to be shown the same as the US pronunciation for the noun. I've never heard them pronounced the same. Who does US pronunciations? DCDuring TALK 02:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

Mismatched wikisyntax[edit]

I noticed that Mitteleuropa is listed as having mismatched parentheses, but the problem is not correctable. The "mismatch" is in a quotation that uses "1)" as part of a numbering scheme. Do you know whether there is a way to keep such instances from being marked as problems every time a check for such things is run? --EncycloPetey 19:38, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Thanks, but those doesn't apply to this case. I'll ask Robert directly. The links you provided are still likely to be useful in future, though. --EncycloPetey 20:56, 4 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK Chapter[edit]

A plan is in the works to found a new UK chapter of the Wikimedia Foundation, and we are currently gathering support from the community. If you are interesting in being part of this new UK chapter as a member, a board member or as someone with a general interest in the chapter, please head over to m:Wikimedia UK v2.0 and let us know. We welcome help in making finishing touches to the plans. An election will be held shortly for the initial board, who will oversee the process of founding the company and accepting membership applications. They will then call an AGM to formally elect a new board, which will take the chapter forward, starting to raise funds and generally supporting the Wikimedia community in the UK. Thanks for your time. AndrewRT 22:31, 8 September 2008 (UTC)


Are you sure about the UK pronunciation? The ash character represents the vowel sound in cat. --EncycloPetey 19:07, 11 September 2008 (UTC)

The final vowel in British pronunciation is definately /æ/, and although I'm slightly less certain about the first vowel, there is no standard English phoneme that is closer. Thryduulf 19:12, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
Cambridge gives /vwælˈɑː/, /vwɒlˈɑː/, and /vwɑːˈlɑː/ ofr the UK. They use the "a" in father for the final vowel; they also stress the final syllable rather than the first. --EncycloPetey 19:19, 11 September 2008 (UTC)
hmm, I'll concede the stress, but my pronunciation (which is not radically different to that around me) the final vowel is short rather than the long /ɑː/ of father. The second pronunciation you give, "/vwɒlˈɑː/", sounds like what I would expect of an upper class RP speaker but definitely not of everyday modern British speech.
Cambridge tends to give RP pronunciations, rather than the more usual ones. --EncycloPetey 01:41, 12 September 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for fixing that - I was wondering what to do. --Mcginnly 16:22, 18 September 2008 (UTC)

Wikimedia UK 2.0 Voting is open :-)[edit]

A warm hello to all those signed up as guarantor members of the soon-to-be-rebooted UK chapter! Voting is now open over at meta - there's tons of information online over there, and the mailing list has been very active too. Discussion, comment (and even the inevitable technical gremlins!) are most welcome at the meta pages, otherwise please do send in your vote/s, and tell a friend about the chapter too :-) Privatemusings 22:29, 20 September 2008 (UTC)I'm not actually involved in the election workings, and am just dropping these notes in to help try and spread the word :-) I welcome any or all comment too, but 'election related' stuff really is better suited to the meta pages :-)


Is finicky really pronounced "fi-nick-ity" in U.K. English? —RuakhTALK 23:47, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

No, but the alternative form (with identical meaning) finickity is. I didn't actually realise until your message that the word was finicky. Looking at the results of quick google and bgc hits for "finickity" it appears to be colloquial, but as one source claims it as Scottish, another Australian and a third American I'd say it was pretty widespread one! Thryduulf 19:32, 21 September 2008 (UTC)


  • I have started a discussion; in fact there's been a lengthy conversation at Wiktionary talk:Pronunciation#UK pronunciations going on since January. You certainly have tradition on your side, but apart from that I am hardly alone in thinking we ought to present more accurate info. Most importantly (in my view), the distinction between [a] and [æ] is one of the prime differences between UK and US English. Also note that the OED now uses /a/ in its UK transcriptions. Ƿidsiþ 16:18, 22 September 2008 (UTC)


For some English dialects, insist is a homophone. --EncycloPetey 18:51, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

It shouldn't be that surprising, since many "en-" words are pronounced /ɪn-/. In fact a quick browse through the Cambridge Pronouncing Dictionary shows that most such words are listed in there with dual pronunciation. A prime example is enlist, which I normally hear in the US pronounced with /ɪn-/ rather than /ɛn-/. --EncycloPetey 18:59, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
Butting in, I found that MWOnline shows both, though personally I would like to hear a distinction. Also, some of the recorded pronunciations in other dictionaries are almost or completely indistinguishable to my ear. DCDuring TALK 19:07, 2 October 2008 (UTC)
I'll record audio for both right now. I need to record some audio for upcoming WOTD anyway. --EncycloPetey 19:15, 2 October 2008 (UTC)

put the pedal to the metal[edit]

Actually the pronunciation isn't fully predictable from the components. The word the has two possible pronunciations alone, depending on emphasis, which will not be obvious to a non-native speaker for this phrase. Also, the primary stress locations are not obvious when the phrase is assembled. I don't think we can rule that certain entries should not have pronunciations. --EncycloPetey 17:09, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for letting me know. I think the pronunciation I'm talking about is much more common in the US than elsewhwere, judging from the locations of the newspaper hits at News. There were no non-punning hits for "petal to the metal" (involving florists and trucks or petals coated with metal) outside the US AFAICT. DCDuring TALK 17:56, 6 October 2008 (UTC)

RE: Notes about pronunciations[edit]

Thank you very much for the explanations. I had somehow the feeling that I was inserting non-standard formatting... ;) --Actam 07:01, 17 October 2008 (UTC)