Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2016-01/Pronunciation

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Pronunciation[edit]

Voting on: Editing WT:EL#Pronunciation.

See diff.

Current text:

Pronunciation
Main article: Wiktionary:Pronunciation

A typical pronunciation section may look like the following example based on the word portmanteau: 

* {{a|RP}} {{IPA|/pɔːtˈmæn.təʊ/|lang=en}}
* {{a|US}} {{enPR|pôrtmă'ntō}}, {{IPA|/pɔɹtˈmæntoʊ/|lang=en}}; {{enPR|pô'rtmăntōʹ}}, {{IPA|/ˌpɔɹtmænˈtoʊ/|lang=en}}
* {{audio|en-us-portmanteau-1.ogg|Audio 1 (US)|lang=en}}
* {{audio|en-us-portmanteau-2.ogg|Audio 2 (US)|lang=en}}

The region or accent [(UK), (US), (General Australian), et al.] is first if there is regional variation, followed by the pronunciation system (such as enPR[1] or IPA), a colon, then the pronunciation. (See Wiktionary:Pronunciation key for an outline of these two systems.) The phonetic transcriptions are normally placed between diagonal strokes. Use an established system of pronunciation transcription, such as IPA.

Ideally, every entry should have a pronunciation section, and perhaps a sound sample to accompany it. However, pronunciations vary widely between dialects, and non-linguists often have trouble writing down pronunciations properly.

For audio pronunciations, upload the Ogg file to Commons and link here using Template:audio.

Homophones (subsection)

List any homophones of the word in alphabetical order, wikifying each one. For example, the Pronunciation section of the English word right contains the line 

* {{homophones|rite|wright|write|lang=en}}

which results in

which are the English words that sound identical to right.

If a word is a homophone in a particular dialect, it may be added provided the dialect is referred to (for example, rider is a homophone of writer[2] in accents with flapping, and beater is a homophone of beta in non-rhotic accents). Examples (for beater and right, respectively):

The following must not be added to the homophones section:

  • Words that are “nearly” homophones or rhymes (for example, for right, the words white or light);
  • Words that are homophones if they are mispronounced in some way (e.g. for miss, the word myth when pronounced with a lisp);
  • Words from other languages (which are unlikely to be true homophones anyway).

(Note that the term used here is homophone; the term homonym used by some is ambiguous as it can mean either “homophone” or “homograph”.)

Rhymes (subsection)

Add a link to the page in the “Rhymes” namespace that lists the rhymes for the word. So, for example, on the entry for hat, add the line 

* {{rhymes|æt|lang=en}}

to the code. This displays as

To see the usage instructions for {{rhymes}}, see Template:rhymes/documentation.[2]

Do not list the rhymes themselves in the main namespace.[3]

References
  1. ^ previously called AHD, but renamed per 2007-02/Renaming AHD and 2007-02/Renaming AHD (run-off)
  2. ↑ 2.0 2.1 Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-08/Minor policy page changes
  3. ^ Wiktionary:Votes/2012-01/Modify WT:ELE rhymes section

Proposed text:

Note: The example word is carrot for illustrative purposes only, and shall be replaced by the word that is chosen in the informal poll Wiktionary talk:Votes/pl-2016-01/Pronunciation#Poll: example word.

Pronunciation
Main article: Wiktionary:Pronunciation

Ideally, every entry should have a pronunciation section, with the phonetic transcription and usually including an audio file. Note that pronunciations may vary widely between dialects, and non-linguists often have trouble writing down pronunciations properly.[1]

A typical pronunciation section may look like the following (simplified) example based on the word carrot:

Code: 

* {{a|GA}} {{IPA|/ˈkæɹət/|/ˈkɛɹət/|lang=en}}
* {{a|RP}} {{IPA|/ˈkæɹət/|lang=en}}
* {{audio|en-us-carrot.ogg|Audio (US)|lang=en}}
* {{rhymes|æɹət|lang=en}}
* {{homophones|caret|karat|carat|lang=en}}
* {{hyphenation|car|rot|lang=en}}

Result:

Notes:

  • The region or accent [(General American), (Received Pronunciation), (General Australian), et al.] is first if there is regional variation, followed by the pronunciation system (such as enPR[2] or IPA), a colon, then the pronunciation. (See Wiktionary:Pronunciation key for an outline of these two systems.) The phonetic transcriptions are normally placed between diagonal strokes. Use an established system of pronunciation transcription, such as IPA.
  • For audio pronunciations, upload the Ogg file to Commons and link here using Template:audio.
  • Rhymes are listed in the "Rhymes" namespace; do not list rhymes in the main namespace. Instead, in each entry, add a link to the respective rhymes page. See {{rhymes}} for usage instructions.
  • Homophones are words in the same language that have the same sound. (Avoid using the ambiguous term homonym, as it can mean either homophone or homograph.) Don't add: 1) words that are “nearly” homophones or rhymes (for example, for right, the words white or light); 2) words that are homophones if they are mispronounced in some way (e.g. for miss, the word myth when pronounced with a lisp); 3) words from other languages (which are unlikely to be true homophones anyway). Homophones should be listed in alphabetical order using the {{homophones}} template. If a word is a homophone in a particular dialect, it may be added provided the dialect is referred to (for example, rider is a homophone of writer in accents with flapping, and beater is a homophone of beta in non-rhotic accents).
  • Use the template {{hyphenation}} for hyphenations.
References
  1. ^ Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2016-01/Pronunciation
  2. ^ previously called AHD, but renamed per 2007-02/Renaming AHD and 2007-02/Renaming AHD (run-off)

Changes and rationale:

  • More compact version of the same policy. No rules were intended to be changed, they are just described in a way that takes up less space.
  • Using a bulleted list to organize the ideas. The order of ideas changes in a few places.
  • The subsections (Homophones and Rhymes) were removed. The same information was kept, albeit in the bulleted list.
  • The current text uses 4 entries as examples of multiple types of pronunciation information: portmanteau, beta, right and hat. The proposed text uses only 1 entry as an example of all the types of pronunciation information previously mentioned: carrot. Bonus: The example shows the transcription, the audio, the homophones and rhymes in order in the carrot example.
  • Added hyphenation.
  • Another step in the direction of having WT:EL completely voted.

Schedule:

  • Vote starts: 00:00, 9 February 2016 (UTC)
  • Vote ends: 23:59, 9 March 2016 (UTC)

Discussion:

Support[edit]

  1. Support --Daniel Carrero (talk) 01:55, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Support — It's an improvement, certainly. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 14:38, 22 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose[edit]

  1. Seems like no-one got in fast enough to copyedit this. Daniel Carrero, do you object to the changes I made in this diff? (If you do, or disagree with my abuse of process, you are of course free to revert them.) Even so, I feel obliged to Oppose, because the text no longer specifies how to implement the sentence "If a word is a homophone in a particular dialect, it may be added provided the dialect is referred to." - the example of how to format the context label in this scenario has been removed. This, that and the other (talk) 06:56, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I don't mind that you changed the vote. (To clarify, when he changed the vote, I was the only one who voted.) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 07:09, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  2. Oppose I'm not sure why the example word is still carrot after it clearly lost in the poll on the talk page. --WikiTiki89 16:22, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    It's because we New Englanders are not respected here on Wiktionary, as I have just seen myself earlier, with someone trying to insist that "squ-ehhr" (as opposed to "squeir") is the pronunciation for "square", and claiming that I am "in the minority" in thinking that it is not. Tharthan (talk) 16:24, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    @Wikitiki89, are you opposing the vote just because of the word carrot? Please read again the "Procedural note" in this vote and the poll introduction. The poll started only a few days ago, the word that passes should be able to replace carrot here, without the need for another formal vote. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:34, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I didn't notice that. In that case, why not delay the start of the vote? --WikiTiki89 16:40, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That could be done if people want, but I thought the example word to be a minor issue that does not actually change the regulations so I just started the vote in the scheduled date. When "Reconstruction:" pages were voted, there was a vote for the creation of a new namespace and a poll to see what exactly would be the name. Technically, the poll could go on as long as we want. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 17:21, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    In the Reconstruction vote, I made sure to specify in detail exactly where and how the name of the namespace would be used. Here it is not clear what the text of the example will be, and that should be part of the vote. --WikiTiki89 18:14, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    I replaced the procedural note by a note that makes it clearer. (diff) --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:24, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    That does help, but unless you actually create the text of the example for each possible word, I wouldn't know what I would be voting for. --WikiTiki89 20:51, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    Can't we just consider the current pronunciation section of all the current entries in the poll? But, if needed for formal voting purposes, I can create a separate page and copy all the pronunciation sections of these entries there. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:24, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
    The problem is that I might disagree with how some of the examples are currently laid out in their entries. I think the text of the example is an important part of what we are voting on, and I can't vote without knowing what it would be. Perhaps we should just omit the example section entirely from this vote and vote on it in a later vote. --WikiTiki89 21:33, 9 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  3. Oppose per Wikitiki. Carrot shouldn't be used, but several of the entries that could replace carrot need to be tweaked (e.g. the narrow transcriptions of wholly should be checked). I think it's be best to shelve this vote until we work out an example. - -sche (discuss) 04:54, 10 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  4. Oppose DCDuring TALK 13:29, 15 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  5. Oppose per Wikitiki. Tharthan (talk) 17:37, 16 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]
  6. Oppose -Xbony2 (talk) 00:18, 4 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Abstain[edit]

  1. Abstain With so many opposes, I don't care to burn my attention on this proposal. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:51, 6 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Decision[edit]

Fails 2–6. The opposers mainly expressed concern with use of the word carrot as an example, which seems to me to be a strange reason to oppose the vote. In any case, the next step would be to discuss and refine the example word (probably using a straw poll to decide on the word, then collaboratively working on the pronunciation details to meet everyone's expectations) and return to this page with a new vote. This, that and the other (talk) 01:26, 10 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

We already have a straw pool on that: Wiktionary talk:Votes/pl-2016-01/Pronunciation#Poll: example word. It seems symbol already won and should be the example word on a later vote. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 03:38, 10 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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