User talk:Vanished user 127237

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Enjoy your stay at Wiktionary! --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 01:49, 7 June 2012 (UTC)

Welcome

One of our administrations, Metaknowledge noticed you have been adding Bashkir content over the past few months and suggested I say hello.

I am glad to learn about Bashkortostan and the Bashkir language. Unfortunately, I do not read Cyrillic letters, so I must do that so I can read your entries!

I would like to repeat Lo Ximiendo's request to add a Babel box to your user page. The code for your Babel box should look something like this:

{{Babel|ba|en|ru-4}}

• "ba" means "native speaker of Bashkir."
• "en" means "native speaker of English."
• "ru-4" means "almost native speaker of Russian."

If you have any questions, you can ask here or click "community portal" at the left to find our discussion rooms.

I hope you will keep adding Bashkir words and thank you for making Wiktionary better! --BB12 (talk) 08:42, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi BB12,

I've added a Babel box to my page.

I'm spending my time mostly on the Russian Wiktionary, adding Bashkir word pages there. I thought it could be a good idea to add Bashkir stuff more actively on enWikt too.

Currently, there are some 600+ pages on the RusWikt. Do you think there might be any way to automatically create enWict pages, using the RuWikt entries as a basis? Would be great if I could talk to somebody in your community about deteals, like creating inflection templates.

Cheers, Borovi4ok (talk) 08:55, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Great, thank you! The Bashkir template does not work correctly, so I looked at it. I think if you can edit Category:User_ba-N to include the following, but with translations to Bashkir, it should work. ("Category" and "User" should be left in English.)

{{User lang|ba|This user is a '''[[:Category:User ba-N|native]]''' speaker of '''[[:Category:User ba|башҡорт теле]]'''.}}<noinclude> {{documentation}} </noinclude>

If you are interested, we also need Template:User ba-1, Template:User ba-2, Template:User ba-3 and Template:User ba-4. :: The English versions are:

1. This user is able to contribute with a basic level of English.
2. This user is able to contribute with an intermediate level of English.
3. This user is able to contribute with an advanced level of English.
4. This user speaks English at a near-native level.

I will ask Metaknowledge to respond here about automatically creating pages and templates. --BB12 (talk) 09:54, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi! I'll be your friendly technical helper for today. To answer your two questions: Extracting content from other Wiktionaries is not an easy thing, because to be a fully automated process, it needs to be done by bot. That requires more programming knowledge than I have. Do you know any programming languages, and if so, which ones? There is a second option for extracting data. I can build a template that transforms ru.wikt formatting into en.wikt formatting. However, it will require you to copy-paste manually from ru.wikt to en.wikt, and you will have to type in the definition in English. That would be pretty fast, but you need to be sure that you would make good use of it before I build it, because that would take a lot of work. As for inflection templates, I have a lot of experience with them. All you need to do is verify that w:Bashkir language#Grammar is correct and I'll build a template that can cover all those nouns. If there are nouns that aren't covered there, please explain their declension here. Thanks --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 15:17, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

(By the way, I just met a guy from Уфа (yes, I know Cyrillic), but he didn't know any Bashkir. Ah well.) --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 15:19, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi Μετάknowledge! Thanks for your help!

I don't know any programming languages, so let's go with the second option.

Yes, I'm sure I will make good use of the template that would transform ru.wikt formatting into en.wikt formatting once you make it.

I have just checked w:Bashkir language#Grammar. The declension data there is correct, but incomplete. For simple (1-word) nouns, there are 16 declension types in Bashkir. I have actually found that some of them are already here in en.wikt.I will continue the discussion of Bashkir declension below, under a separate header. Borovi4ok (talk) 10:16, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Declension of Bashkir nouns

Again, there are 16 types in Bashkir. For now, I will stick to the declension codes I've used in ru.wikt.

Declensions 1a-1d apply to nouns with stems ending in vowels.

• 1a. Noun stems ending in -а, -ы. Already exists in en.wikt, see ҡала.
• 1b. Noun stems ending in -ә, -е. Already exists in en.wikt, see бүҙәнә.
• 1c. Noun stems ending in -о. Already exists in en.wikt, see опто.
• 1d. Noun stems ending in -ө. Haven't found in en.wikt. Needed e.g. in төлкө. An example declension available at ru.wikt at [1]

Before we continue, please tell if this format of discussion is confortable. Regards, Borovi4ok (talk) 10:34, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

This is great. I'll add 1d to {{ba-noun-v}}. Please explain the rest (you don't need to number them, since they'll be input by the last letter anyway). --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:37, 17 August 2012 (UTC)

Great! Here is more:

• Noun stems ending in -ай, -ау, -аҙ, -ар, -ый, -ыу, -ыҙ, -ыр, -уй, -уҙ, -ур, -яй, -яу, -яҙ, -яр, -оу have the declension as in [2]
• Noun stems ending in -әй, -әү, -әҙ, -әр, -эй, -эү, -эҙ, -эр, -үй, -үҙ, -үр, -ей, -еү, -еҙ, -ер, -өү have the declension as in [3]
• Noun stems ending in -ой, -оҙ, -ор have the declension as in [4]
• Noun stems ending in -өй, -өҙ, -өр have the declension as in [5].

There is problem with nouns in -ир: they may follow either the declension of -ай etc, or -әй etc. This depends on the vowel in the penultimate syllable. Please advise whether this can be done automatically. If so, I will give the details.

We're halfway done with simple nouns. I will explain more a bit later.Borovi4ok (talk) 11:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

We have a problem. There are more than 100 Bashkir nouns here, but they all use a template system that is not making sense to me, and which has no documentation. My hope is that after learning all the Bashkir declensions, I will recognize them in the templates and figure out how to merge them. Also, about the -ир nouns, there are limitations on string manipulation that don't allow the code to "figure it out", so you'll need to type an extra parameter for them. That parameter should probably be just an а or a ә. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 14:43, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

Please keep me posted about how it goes. Tell me if I can be of any help in making the Bashkir declensions work automatically.

Here is the last bit of the declension types:

• Noun stems ending in -ым, -ын, -ың, -ыл, -ам, -ан, -аң, -ал, -ум, -ун, -уң, -ул, -юм, -юн, -юң, -юл, -ям, -ян, -яң, -ял have the declension as in [6].
• Noun stems ending in -ем, -ен, -ең, -ел, -эм, -эн, -эң, -эл, -әм, -ән, -әң, -әл, have the declension as in [7].
• Noun stems ending in -им, -ин, -иң, -ил normally belong to the latter declension type, but there are a few exceptions, depending with the penultimate vowel. Looks like we need to introduce an extra parameter for this case too.
• Noun stems ending in -ом, -он, -оң, -ол have the declension as in [8].
• Noun stems ending in -өм, -өн, -өң, -өл have the declension as in [9].

• Noun stems ending in -ыҡ, -ыт, -ыш, -ып, -ыс, -ыҫ, -ыф, -аҡ, -ат, -аш, -ап, -ас, -аҫ, -аф, -яҡ, -ят, -яш, -яп, -яс, -яҫ, -яф, -уҡ, -ут, -уш, -уп, -ус, -уҫ, -уф, -арт, -ырт, have the declension as in [10]
• Noun stems ending in -эк, -эт, -эш, -эп, -эс, -эҫ, -эф, -ек, -ет, -еш, -еп, -ес, -еҫ, -еф, -әк, -әт, -әш, -әп, -әс, -әҫ, -әф, -үҡ, -үт, -үш, -үп, -үс, -үҫ, -үф, -әрт, -үрт, have the declension as in [11]
• Noun stems ending in -ик, -иҡ, -ит, -иш, -ип, -ис, -иҫ, -иф normally belong to the latter declension type, but there are a few exceptions, depending with the penultimate vowel. An extra parameter needed.
• Noun stems ending in -ош, -оҡ, -от, -оп, -ос, -оҫ, -оф, -орт have the declension as in [12].
• Noun stems ending in -өш, -өк, -өт, -өп, -өс, -өҫ, -өф, -өрт have the declension as in [13].

Last but not least, there are cases when the noun stem is not the same as the nominative case.Borovi4ok (talk) 11:19, 30 August 2012 (UTC)

As far as I know, {{ba-noun-v}} and {{ba-noun-c}} now cover most (if not all) of those stems. Could you please test them out at WT:Sandbox and make sure they are correct? (Click on the links for explanations on how to use them.) If you find any nouns that these templates do not cover, or cover incorrectly, please tell me. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Metaknowledge, thanks a lot,

{{ba-noun-v}} works fine. However, {{ba-noun-c}} displays only the nominative form in all fields, no endings. Am I doing anything wrong?

Also, we need to be able to inflect words that are in singularia tantum, like дөгө (no plural forms exist). Borovi4ok (talk) 14:43, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Metaknowledge,

are you in this discussion? Borovi4ok (talk) 07:51, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Oh, sorry about that. Well, here are your updates on what I've done.
Firstly, try {{ba-noun-c}} again (but click on the link, because the instructions are different now). I think it's fine now.
Secondly, I created {{ba-noun-c-sing}} and {{ba-noun-v-sing}} for singularia tanta. Please test them and tell me if they work correctly.
Thirdly, I can still create the ru.wikt→en.wikt formatting converter, but I did some research into it and it looks like it won't be very easy to input (you'll have to manually type in the vertical pipe ( | ) a lot for it to work). I can still make it, but I'm starting to think it might be faster for you to just copy-paste and modify it as is. If you think that ru.wikt formatting is way too different from ours for that to be very easy for you, then I can still create it. What do you think? --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 02:59, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Metaknowledge,

Sorry I've been away traveling for a while.

I'll write you when I've looked at the new declension templates.

At this moment, I don't think that ru.wikt→en.wikt converter would be a very practical tool. I'll create the English articles manually.

Meanwhile, can you please have a look at тәҙрә and see if it looks right? I need one complete article, so I can use it as a master.

Please have a special look at the "Etymology" section. I will need categories for Bashkir words derived from:

• Proto-Turkic;
• Arabic;
• Persian;
• Russian;
• Mongolian;
• Chinese;
• Turkish.

Here ([14]) is the ru.wikt page "Bashkir words derived from other languages". Borovi4ok (talk) 10:32, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

For the most part, [[тәҙрә]] is excellent. However, please see these changes that Ruakh made: [15]. I will make your categories right away, if they don't exist already. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:11, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

аҡса

Whoops, thanks for fixing that! —Ruakh_TALK 14:50, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

Ҡазаҡстан

Folks, this article needs to be renamed into Ҡаҙағстан. Here is its counterpart at ru.wikt: [16] Thanx, Borovi4ok (talk) 12:52, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

There is a dropdown tab just to the left of the search bar that allows you to move it yourself. Just remember to go back to the old page title and replace the content with {{d}} so an administrator notices that it needs to be deleted. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 23:04, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Thanx! Borovi4ok (talk) 13:28, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Template:ba-noun-v-sing

Metaknowledge,

This template doesn't work right for дөгө. The dative should be: дөгөгә.

This template doesn't work right for кәбеҫтә. The dative should be: кәбеҫтәгә.

Also, please correct the "usage" section for this template, namely the part: " This template is only for nouns ending in a consonant when they are in the absolute that only exist in the singular. It takes two arguments, which are just the final vowel, one in each argument".

As I understand, it should read: " This template is only for nouns ending in a vowel when they are in the absolute that only exist in the singular. It takes one argument, which is just the final vowel".

Cheers, Borovi4ok (talk) 14:49, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

I fixed the documentation (it was a copy-paste error, I think). Just so you know, you could have done it yourself, by clicking [edit]. I'm not sure why those pages are getting faulty datives, but try them now with a second argument (like {{ba-noun-v-sing|ә|1}}) and see if it works. (But if that breaks something else, tell me.) --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:00, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Metaknowledge,

Adding a second argument doesn't help :( The dative is still faulty.

BTW, there's the same problem with Австралия. Borovi4ok (talk) 14:00, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Same problem in Төркиә: dative is shown as identical to absolute, in black type. Borovi4ok (talk) 14:00, 9 October 2012 (UTC)

Template:ba-noun-c

Metaknowledge,

this template doesn't work properly for дуҫ. Please see the required declenion at [17].

this template doesn't work properly for күҙ. Please see the required declenion at [18].

this template doesn't work properly for сүл. Please see the required declenion at [19].

this template doesn't work properly for ҡанун.

Thanks,Borovi4ok (talk) 15:25, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi, Borovi4ok. I'm glad to see things are progressing, though it's too bad about some of the template problems. MK told me he's super busy at the moment and it might take him longer than usual to respond to issues on Wiktionary. I'm sure he'll take a look at these templates as soon as he gets a chance :) --BB12 (talk) 16:28, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi BB12,

thanks for telling. Hope MK is back soon. Meanwhile, I'll coninue inserting declension templates into the Bashkir articles. There are not so many left. Borovi4ok (talk) 14:20, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

Can you please get me a link to the correct declension of ҡанун (or just tell me which forms are wrong and what they should be)? --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:06, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Hi Metaknowledge,

The declension of ҡанун is available here: [20].

For now, I see absolute sing. form in all fields. Borovi4ok (talk) 12:12, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

ҫупайҙы

This entry is a very loxalized dialect term - just checked in the Bashkir Dialects database. The standard (and the most widespread) term is һупайҙы.

I most probably know where this term comes from (Bashkir Wikipedia [21] - there it is stated as one of the numerous local terms), and I don't think we need to keep this entry in this project. Borovi4ok (talk) 15:09, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

What we usually do with that kind of entry around here is to replace the definition line with {{alternative form of|һупайҙы|lang=ba}}. Then you can add a section called ===Alternatives forms=== at the very top of the entry at һупайҙы and put in that section * [[ҫупайҙы]] {{qualifier|dialectal}}. If you can mark exactly what dialect says ҫупайҙы, that's even better. --Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 00:03, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Template:ba-noun-c-sing

Hi Metaknowledge, I've just discovered this template doesn't work right for кукуруз. Probably, I didn't tell you from the start that this template also has to handle nouns ending in -з.

Could you please modify the template so this word can be declined? The declension has to be as in [22]. Regards, Borovi4ok (talk) 15:25, 15 October 2012 (UTC)

мышар

What language is "sty"? DTLHS (talk) 01:13, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Making a three-letter judgement via the Edit button, I presume that's for the Mansi language, perhaps? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 01:47, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

Sorry guys,

that was meant to be "Siberian Tatar". Looks like no universal code exists for it. Borovi4ok (talk) 07:51, 8 October 2013 (UTC)

ice cream, majlis

Привет,

Добавь, пожалуйста переводы на башкирский и другие из Category:Translation requests (Bashkir) --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:24, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Обрати внимание на мое исправление перевода на уйгурский @doll. :) --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:29, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Добрый день, Анатолий, спасибо за фидбэк.

Напомню, что уйгурский официально имеет две системы письма - на арабской основе и кириллицей. В этой связи, не считаю лучшей идеей удалять для уйг. слова кириллическое написание и оставлять один лишь арабский спеллинг.

1:Искренне ваш, Borovi4ok (talk) 08:28, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Спасибо. Трудно подтвердить "қочақ", тем более, что должно быть "қорчақ". Я добавил перевод на кириллице:

* Uyghur: {{t|ug|قورچاق|sc=Cyrl}}
*: Cyrillic: {{t|ug|қорчақ|tr=qorchak|sc=Cyrl}}

Вы так и не ответили на мою просьбу выше :). --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:14, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Анатолий,

Как вы понимаете, я опираюсь на те словари, которые у меня есть.

"қочақ" вместо ожидаемого "қорчақ" - это не ошибка, а закономерное для уйгурского явление. Загляните в другие словари - и, возможно, сможете "подтвердить".

Вашу просьбу я принял к сведению. Этот список я видел. Borovi4ok (talk) 12:47, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Словари, где встречается "қочақ" не вызывают доверия, и подтвердить его использование невозможно в Google books. Если у вас есть надежный источник, добавьте альтернативную форму. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 20:43, 14 April 2014 (UTC)

Анатолий, я уже понял, что что-либо вам доказать практически невозможно - вы в любом случае всё знаете лучше.

Буду очень благодарен, если мы с вами сможем поменьше пересекаться в данном проекте.

Искренне ваш, Borovi4ok (talk) 11:50, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Мне очень жаль, что я вызвал у вас такую реакцию. Поверьте, я ничего не делал, чтобы кому-то насолить или тем более доказать, что я знаю больше вас. Пересекаться может быть и придется, я оставляю за собой право редактировать везде, где это может быть уместно и правильно, даже, если вы тоже участвуете в редактировании той же статьи. Просто у меня широкий круг интересов в лингвистике, возможно неорганизованный. Избегать я столкновения с вами не собираюсь, даже если я вам так неприятен. Всего доброго. Можете не отвечать. --Anatoli ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:35, 16 April 2014 (UTC)

Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/marḱ-

No consensus about the 'Altaic/Asiatic' etymology. Would you care to leave a comment to the discussion at WT:ES? Thanks. Hirabutor (talk) 20:54, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Hi Hirabutor, thanx for your invitation.

I don't feel I'm qualified to have a say in this discussion. Sorry. Borovi4ok (talk) 08:19, 22 May 2015 (UTC)

хоҙай

Borovi4ok, здравствуйте! Вы допустили ошибку - вместо хакасского "худай" у Вас "худай" из языка Касуа :) И добавьте,пожалуйста, шорское "қудай",если хотите.

--Санат (talk) 08:42, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

Санат, салам,

ескертуiңiз үшін рахмет, дұрыстап, толықтырып қойдым.

келесіде сондай қателерні өзіңіз түзетсеңiз керемет болады )

Borovi4ok (talk) 11:08, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

• Borovi4ok, başqurtşa söylep bilsem, birdemeni aytar edim;) Tek qana qazaqşa, tek qana hardcore!! ^^
• Санат, как вы думаете, на каком языке я вам написал? Borovi4ok (talk) 07:47, 27 May 2015 (UTC)
• Borovi4ok, я знаю казахский!! Вот дословный перевод, уж извините,если неправильно: if i could speak Bashkir, i would say something(in Bashkir). Я говорю лишь по-казахски, но хотел бы ответить ради приличия на вашем родном языке.

--Санат (talk) 11:00, 27 May 2015 (UTC)

• • Ok, now I see what you meant to say.
  • Never mind dude, just relax )
  • Кста, ты где живёшь, бро? Borovi4ok (talk) 12:00, 28 May 2015 (UTC)
• Не буду :) Вообще, Жанаозен и Полтава. В загранице не был. Знаю, что здесь нет большой и явной необходимости в присутствии в статьях таблиц склонения для шорского, каракалпакского, казахского и прочих младописьменных, неразвитых и непрестижных языков. Но всё же, кто-то ведь взялся за казахский и хакасский. Так что это просто обидно. Знания о правилах присутствуют,но языковой барьер не позволяет мне сделать шаблон самому. Также ничего не знаю в самом редактировании шаблонов. Хотел просто скопировать с хакасского, но побоялся, что ошибусь. Вот, тот шаблон, на который я положил глаз. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Template:kjh-decl-noun Вижу результаты вашей работы - каждое существительное башкирского всегда со склонением. Т.е. прошу помощи в составлении шаблонов. Вся информация находится на моей странице обсуждения в русском Викисловаре https://ru.wiktionary.org/wiki/%D0%9E%D0%B1%D1%81%D1%83%D0%B6%D0%B4%D0%B5%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%B5_%D1%83%D1%87%D0%B0%D1%81%D1%82%D0%BD%D0%B8%D0%BA%D0%B0:Naa_cher Тамошний админ мне очень помог в составлении. Я не ставлю цель - внедрить готовый шаблон в тело статьи каждого существительного, хотя их количество на данный момент мало, а просто хочу, чтобы сам шаблон с правилами существовал именно в этой языковой версии.

--Санат (talk) 16:25, 28 May 2015 (UTC)

• Давай может в скайпе переговорим, или где удобно? Skype: borovi44ok Borovi4ok (talk) 07:44, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

template help

Hi. On Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2015/December#template help, Dixtosa asks you to write the documentation for the Bashkir noun declension and verb conjugation templates first (you said that you can provide all the details for noun declension, etc.), so that everybody can see what is needed. Then link the page to Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2015/December#template help. —Stephen ^(Talk) 01:30, 7 December 2015 (UTC)

English - Bashkir dictionary

Hello, is there a good online English-Bashkir dictionary that I can use? I have been creating some basic Turkish verbs and want to include cognates however I couldnt find a reliable source that I can add Bashkir verbs, I can find some sources but they lack cryllic and infinitive form, I saw you active on Bashkir topics and just wanted to ask. Peace.--Anylai (talk) 23:14, 25 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Anylai,

I am not aware of such an online resource that you could readily use.

Let me first ask, how many verbs would like to put together? If not too many, then I may simply put up the list for you. Otherwise, I will think further. Borovi4ok (talk) 08:44, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

I guessed that, I can sometimes find Kyrgyz and Uzbek verbs thanks to wiktionary but that is all. I just counted that I have created around 50 pages for verbs, also tried to improve some that I did not create. I made a list from my mind with no specific order and there are about 75 verbs more to be added, all mono-disyllabic and have at least Old Turkic etymology. It is definitely a lot to deal with, I just wanted to know if there was a dictionary, sad to learn there is not. If you can help me, I have made a list and in the list I have 35 verbs with Bashkir cognates, I only need Bashkir transliteration and simple meanings, because I am not sure if they exactly mean the same thing. Thanks for your help! --Anylai (talk) 23:09, 26 February 2016 (UTC)

Hi Anylai,

Sorry I've been away for the weekend.

You can send me your list, I will be happy to do the Bashkir part for you.

Can we met up on Skype? My account there is borovi44ok. Borovi4ok (talk) 14:59, 29 February 2016 (UTC)

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Stress in Bashkir

Hey! I just discovered how wonderful your language is while exploring through Wiktionary. So I had a closer look at your language on Wikipedia. But to no avail, I could not find anything about how the rules of stress work for the phonology of your language. Do you have any ideas? Thanks in advance, your language is much more fascinating than English or Russian! — AWESOME meeos ！ * ([nʲɪ‿bʲɪ.spɐˈko.ɪtʲ]) 01:06, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Hi, thanx for asking.

Generally, the stress falls on the last syllable in Bashkir. However, it may fall on other syllables in certain contexts, like in poetry, in songs, or in emphatic speech. This does not affect the sense.

Some grammatical morphemes do not take the stress and keep in to the preceding syllable (e.g. the negation affix -ma/-mä in verbs). This may result in the stress falling on any syllable in a verb form, including the first syllable.

Next, question words (e.g. ҡайҙа, нимә, нисек) normally take the stress on the first syllable.

Last but not least, there are some special cases like [23].

That's it in a nutshell. Borovi4ok (talk) 08:58, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

бүҙәнә and Middle Mongol

Hey, I'm reverting your reversion, since Middle Mongol was in fact written in Arabic script.
In particular, this word is found in the Istanbul Vocabulary and the Leiden Vocabulary (see here) as noted by Nugteren, and sadly I can't get the exact spelling so I left the transcription.
I would have put in Uyghur script, but since the word doesn't appear in Tumurtogoo all attestations are classical rather than Middle Mongol.

Whoops, Thanks for this! It feels really good to know there is someone in the project who is more competent than I am ) I appreciate your help, and would be happy if you checked my etymologies when you can.Borovi4ok (talk) 08:45, 2 November 2017 (UTC) Borovi4ok (talk) 08:45, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

No problem, and thank you for kind words, I'm just an enthusiast amateur myself. Crom daba (talk) 11:22, 2 November 2017 (UTC)

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Bashkir phonology and loanwords from Russian

Hi. I am hoping you can help me solve a linguistic conundrum. I am curious whether you know the reason why some Bashkir loanwords from Russian (һалам (halam), һалдат (haldat), Һамар (Hamar))) have /h/ for Russian /s/, but others (социаль (sotsialʹ), секунд (sekund)) have an /s/ in Bashkir. It seems to me that Bashkir /s/ is a native phoneme, so I don’t understand why some of the loanwords have /h/ instead. – Krun (talk) 11:55, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Hi!

1. The s>h development is regular for Bashkir, as long as native Turkic words are concerned. (Details apply though, the reality is in fact more complicated)

2. The same applies to Russian loanwords which entered Bashkir in oral form and did so long enough so they have had their chance to "get adapted".

3. The Russian loanwords which entered in 20th century via written language generally retain their Russian spelling and do not undergo much phonetic change, so they are pronounced "as in Russian".

4. As for Samara, the Russian city name came from a river name, which (most probably) comes from Turkic languages, so Һамар (Hamar) for Bashkir is a regular Turkic place name, see line item 1.

5. Yes, /s/ is a native phoneme to Bashkir, but it historically developed from /č/ [t͡ɕ]. Hence, see Силәбе (Siləbe) vs. Челябинск (Čeljabinsk).

Hope this helps, Borovi4ok (talk) 14:49, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

Thanks a lot! That explains things very well. Always nice to learn something new. – Krun (talk) 12:23, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Bashkir verbs

Hey, I've noticed that you colossal Bashkir output doesn't include verbs, do you need help making a conjugation template? Crom daba (talk) 14:41, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for asking. That's true, I've been holding back verbs till the moment I have a verb template available. Can you help with that? Borovi4ok (talk) 14:51, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Sure, it doesn't sound too difficult. Crom daba (talk) 19:23, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Thanks, would be awesome.

I need some time before I can start. Will write you then. Cheers! Borovi4ok (talk) 07:50, 28 November 2018 (UTC)

аҙған

Could you create an entry for аҙған (aźğan)? I came across that word at the word ғашиҡ (ğaşiq). Happy Winter Solstice and Yule. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 01:00, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

Hi Lo,

done. It's been a bit of a challenge, from the lexicography standpoint :) Certain problems still remain; if you can improve, would be just awesome. Borovi4ok (talk) 10:09, 19 December 2018 (UTC)

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Cognate lists

are generally removed if there is a source word which has a descendant list. That’s why I created قَلَعِيّ (qalaʕiyy), see Talk:قالای. You mostly park Turkic cognates of Turkic words also when there is no Proto-Turkic created, which is okay and great – until the Proto-Turkic is created. Fay Freak (talk) 12:08, 21 October 2019 (UTC) @Fay Freak, is there some type of community agreement on this "general" practice? Borovi4ok (talk) 12:36, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@Borovi4ok Yes. I am not the only one who does this. You can ask others. Fay Freak (talk) 12:37, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@Borovi4ok, I am asking you. Can you please show me if there is such an agreement? If not, can you please let my cognate lists alone? Borovi4ok (talk) 12:38, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@Borovi4ok I can, but you demand to see it, so you can search for it yourself, and for someone who distrusts my statements regardless of evidence I won’t profer evidence anyway. The agreement is there but unwritten, you only find it if you do not refuse to see it. Better you defend listing random cognates on Bashkir entries when the cognates are a click away. Until then there is no reason not to remove the cognate lists. Fay Freak (talk) 12:49, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@Fay Freak: 1) What are your sources for OAT, and where is the source for attestation of the term qalay in it? 2) Is there any particular reason you believe Chechen term comes from Azerbaijani? (It is not unlikely, I'm just wondering whether someone ever explicitly stated it.) Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 13:59, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

@Allahverdi Verdizade Rarely I have anything on Old Anatolian Turkish, sometimes I find a word in the edition of an older text, in transliteration or an Ottoman word explicitly mentioned as being so in Old Anatolian Turkish. I of course only add when I have no doubt about the spelling.

Little I know about Chechen, but the Northeast Caucasian terms looked like from Azerbaijani, particularly considering the [ɡ], which is after all the closest greater Turkic language there; but I can not further sort whether one is borrowed directly from Azerbaijani or from another Northeast Caucasian language; the list on قَلَعِيّ (qalaʕiyy) is rough (theoretically the Northeast Caucasian languages can have the term from OAT, but Northeast Caucasian is hardly attested for the Middle Ages so it is impossible to know, and like the term has been reinforced by Azerbaijani even if not borrowed the first time from it). Else you can resort the descendants at قَلَعِيّ (qalaʕiyy). Of course for that great number of languages I cannot source but still the list must be done, and statements in scholarly “sources” deriving X from Y are often wrong anyway and based on the same considerations that we make.

As I wasn’t sure which of the possible spellings is applicable for the OAT descendant of قَلَعِيّ (qalaʕiyy) I left it a request, as also for Chagatai. The reasons why I assumed it has passed into Old Anatolian Turkish is that for one thing it was there in the Codex Cumanicus, so probably also in Old Anatolian Turkish, for another that the Ottoman spelling does not preserve the Arabic spelling so it looks like a vulgar instead of a literary loan of later educated times (which literary loans rather start in the 15th century), and most importantly that this word had died out in Arabic in the beginning of Ottoman Turkish, if you set it at 1500 (one uses exclusively قَصْدِير (qaṣdīr) for centuries). The mentions of this term in Arabic cite even older occurences. The word clearly has spread in Turkic in the Middle Ages. Fay Freak (talk) 19:27, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

So, in other words, you were just guessing. Thanks for clarifying! Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 20:09, 21 October 2019 (UTC)

Tatar lemmas

Hi, currently we have an unacceptable situation with Tatar where i.a. senses belonging to the same lemma get split between Cyrillic and Latin spellings, see карсак (qarsaq) and qarsaq. I see only one way of reducing the amount of mess in Tatar lemmas - moving all semantic-pragmatic and contextual parts to one of the scripts, whereas the other script will only have {{spelling of|tt|Latin|карсак}}. I propose the Cyrillic script for that purpose. What do you think? Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 13:35, 10 November 2020 (UTC)

Hi, I fully agree. I support that Cyrillic should be the main script for Tatar - it is the only official and widely used one today.

Unfortunately, there is lots of mess in the Tatar lemmas ( Wish someone came around who could contribute to Tatar.Borovi4ok (talk) 17:51, 12 November 2020 (UTC)

Learning Bashkir

Сәләм! I noticed that you are dedicated to creating Bashkir entries here and since I would like to learn Bashkir, could you perhaps point me to a good basic level textbook? Via Russian is possible, but if you know of any English-Bashkir method, that would be even better. Рәхмәт! 2001:1C02:1901:ED00:E018:3F74:7308:4846 09:12, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Hi 2001:1C02:1901:ED00:E018:3F74:7308:4846! Thank you for your interest. Bashkir is a rather small language, and textbooks are pretty thin on the earth. The one that i can recommend you right away is Bashkir Manual by Nicholas Poppe. You should be able to find it easily on the web, otherwise drop me a note. Tell me how you like it. Borovi4ok (talk) 18:10, 11 May 2021 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing up Bashkir Manual. It gives a conjugation of verbs, also how to correctly use suffixes (I don't know how the template will look like for verbs). Also, do you happen to know a Bashkir translation of the Old Testament? You gave an example of Genesis 9:21, as well as 11:5 (The Tower of Babel in Bashkir can be found on Omniglot). Another thing, it's good that Minecraft Java Edition is now playable in Bashkir. Lexikhan310 (talk) 23:31, 21 October 2021 (UTC)

һауыт

Башкир, ну и зачем ты снес добавление в этимологию? Мы татары из Башкирии говорим сауыт, мы не относимся к казакам (сауыт) или казанским татарам (савыт). Словари татарского это как правило казанский, наш говор отличается в некоторых словах, ближе к башкирскому или казакскому. 178.47.114.212 01:44, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Сәләм, якташ!

Я создал страницу для татарского слова савыт, можешь туда внести свои правки. Borovi4ok (talk) 09:21, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Нет ли в планах добавить слово абҙар/аҙбар, татар уже было добавлено абзар/abzar, это сарай для баранов (у нас). Возможно это слово происходит от амбар, прочитанное по-другому? И еще вопрос, в башкирском есть слово йәнет "ответ", оно не имеет значения "объяснять, растолковать"? 178.47.114.212 18:09, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

аҙбар добавил, попробую копнуть этимологию. йәнет "ответ" первый раз слышу, и словари не знают такого. Borovi4ok (talk) 18:55, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

йәнет есть в словаре сайта glosbe, кто-то видимо добавил. У нас в разговорной речи есть похожее слово со значением "объяснить", не связано с аңлатыу, возможно это значит "заиметь ответ от кого-то", типа "я знаю ответ". В казанском словаре такого слова не нашел. 178.47.114.212 19:12, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Относитесь критичнее к онлайн-ресурсам. Если кто-то онлайн придумал слово, это не означает, что оно существует в реальном языке.

Похоже на творчество выпускника турецкого лицея, по подобию yanıt. Borovi4ok (talk) 19:21, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

Да вероятно это то самое слово, у нас есть "йәнету" - "объяснять" (не знаю написание, возьму с башк), "син миңә йәнет" - "ты мне объясни" (дай ответ), "син миңә йәнетасеңме?" - "ты мне объяснишь?" (будь добр). 178.47.12.151 20:19, 1 August 2021 (UTC)

По поводу слова мөйөш "угол", у нас тоже есть в разговорной речи такое слово, например "мөйөшка баланы куярга" - "поставить ребенка в угол" (плохо себя вёл). Можно еще добавить ногайский вариант "муьйис". Нет ли в планах добавить башкирский в гугл переводчик? Популярный ресурс как никак. 178.47.12.151 17:17, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

У меня таких планов нет. Borovi4ok (talk) 20:09, 3 August 2021 (UTC)

Я добавил инфу к күкәй, у нас такое же слово вместо йомырка, а еще оно есть в удмуртском. Это случайно не из удмуртского было взято? 188.19.56.13 21:30, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Еще есть слова: быйма, у нас это "пима"; бесәй будет "песәй", "песәкей". Пима и песәй указаны у сев-зап башкир в статье gorobzor.ru. 188.19.56.13 00:11, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

А вот и слово угол нашлось, записано как мөеш в словарях. 188.19.56.13 02:25, 5 August 2021 (UTC)

А почему для слова атыу не добавлено значение "цвести" (цветы цветут)? В разговорной речи есть же такое значение. Например в башк словаре 1996 есть пример "сэскэ атып килэ - начинает цвести", за 1958 прямым значение написано "сэскэ атыу - цвести, зацветать, расцветать". 178.46.48.164 14:50, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Конечно есть такое значение. Пока что руки не дошли.Borovi4ok (talk) 15:21, 12 August 2021 (UTC)

Касаемо слова һулаҡай, откуда уверенность что оно из монгольского? Оно ведь образовано из һул - левый → левша, по такому же принципу что и в славян, англ. Левша тот кто пользуется левой рукой. А вот монгольское левый будет зүүн, значит это в монгольском заимствование из тюркского. Что подтверждается и научными исследованиями, не тюркский из монгольского, а наоборот. Если бы монголы понимали принцип словообразования взятых слов, то не использовали солгой в значении левый, что можно найти в словаре Пюрбеева, 2001г. Это как левша использовать в значении левый, левшавая рука (левая рука), левшавая политика (левая политика), по-дурацки ведь звучит. 188.17.40.190 10:11, 18 August 2021 (UTC)

Я добавил источники в һулаҡай. Спорить с вами я не буду. Можете скачать ЭСТЯ и почитать.Borovi4ok (talk) 11:25, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Эта версия про заимств из монг лишь предположение, перечисленная из других авторов. В словаре Бурдукова 1935г, монгол слова записаны латиницей и там для левый указано лишь zyyn, а левша solgoi, solgoiçi (суффикс -чи). А использование слова левша в знач левый, можно считать просто неграмотностью. Например, в чувашском сулахай значит левый/левша, даже не стали заморачиваться с различием. Что-то типа русского "гонка" для обозначения машины, "это машина гонка" (это гоночная машина) - что проскакивает в разг речи. Влияние монгольского можно проследить у тех народов, кто соседствует с ними, напр. тувинцы, алтайцы. А выводить все тюркские слова из монгол попахивает каким-то кретинизмом (ололо монголы всех захватили). 188.17.40.190 20:40, 19 August 2021 (UTC)

Уважаемый аноним, для начала научитесь подбирать выражения. Borovi4ok (talk) 08:48, 20 August 2021 (UTC)

Ну и насчет слова "правша", в книгах не нашлось такого. В электр.словаре есть уңаҡай, уң + -ҡай, тот же принцип что и для левши. Будет ли такое корректно? У казаков есть оңқай, оң + -қай. 178.47.5.59 12:37, 23 August 2021 (UTC)

уңаҡай/оңқай образовано по аналогии с һулаҡай / солақай. Это видно по тому, что оно гораздо менее употребительно. Borovi4ok (talk) 07:41, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Интересно, что в монгольских словарях найти слово правша не получилось. Еще такой вопрос, есть слово нәрсә - что. В башкирском такое слово нашлось в более современных словарях, видимо диалект. Оно есть у восточных башкир, язык которых официальный, или это у западных? 178.47.5.59 15:19, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Заглянул в диалектологические словари. В говорах восточного диалекта башкирского есть нәрҫә "что". Это слово есть еще в некоторых других тюркских языках.

Ваши воззрения на башкирскую диалектологию не соответствуют реальному состоянию дел. В башкирском три диалекта. Восточный диалект не является "официальным". Изучите на досуге. Borovi4ok (talk) 20:59, 24 August 2021 (UTC)

Да вот башкир пишет vk про свой диалект и "официальный" башкирский. Почему спрашиваю, потому что есть пересечения с этим вариантом башкирского, этот вариант ближе чем восточный башкирский. 178.47.5.59 15:05, 25 August 2021 (UTC)

Есть такие села с названием Әрнәш, что это может значить? От какого корня образовано? 90.151.202.119 05:36, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Не знаю, не знаком с вашими краями. В нашем регионе названия аулов чаще всего происходят от имён конкретных людей. Изучите историю села, загляните на ufagen.ru. Borovi4ok (talk) 07:20, 6 September 2021 (UTC)

Да суть не в истории села, есть и башкирское село с таким названием. Что это за слово, что оно значило. Мы же на сайте словаря. 90.151.203.6 03:51, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

Уважаемый собеседник, такого слова в башкирском нет. Здесь не этимологическая или топонимическая служба, разбирайтесь сами. Borovi4ok (talk) 12:54, 7 September 2021 (UTC)

В электр.словаре есть слово "ыурыҡ" - "кувшин", добавленное каким-то башкиром, видимо. Да, в бумажных словарях такое не нашлось, местечковое хождение, тем не менее. Это слово не происходит от турецкого ibrik? 178.46.55.105 08:44, 4 November 2021 (UTC)

тәңкә

Hi, please don't vandalize WT by just reverting others' edits without any justifiable cause. If you speak Russian (and judging by your nickname you do), please see the деньги page on Russian WT and it clearly states that the etymology is either Turkish (denge) or possibly Indo-European. 100% not Persian. Not replying to this subsection in 24h is reputed agreed on your behalf, therefore I will be reverting your revert. Regards, --Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 22:31, 8 November 2021 (UTC)

Hi, @Whydoesitfeelsogood! Thank you for writing here. Now that we are at this issue, let's discuss it.

1. Persian is Indo-European. This is 100%, you can check your textbooks on this.

2. Turkish is not equal to Turkic. However, Turkish is part of Turkic. (Just for clarity).

3. From your reverted edit (which was unsourced BTW), you appear to be dead certain that Bashkir тәңкә (təñkə, “silver coin”) comes from Turkish denge (“balance”). In this case, however, you need to be able to elicidate several things:

a. What is the etymological source for Turkish denge (“balance”)?

b. Are you saying all modern Turkic cognates of BA тәңкә (təñkə) (KK, KY, UZ, UG) derive from the Turkish?

c. If so, how come the historical Chagatai تەڭكە (täñkä) derives from the modern Turkish?

d. How exactly does the term for "silver coin" derive from "balance", when and why did this lexical change take place?

3. When referring to ru.wikt in this case, you are effectively referring to Vasmer's dictionary (See Vasmer#деньга). It might be OK for the purposes of Russian Etymology, but, as you see, there are more questions than answers for the purposes of Turkic Etymology. Basically, the only thing certain from the Vasmer article is that the Russian term derives from a Turkic source (which, from a Turkic perspective, is kinda obvious anyway). Everything else is only a list of assumptions and possible unsupported versions, alas, which does not add much clarity.

Also, please note that Vasmer is not pushing the Turkish denge version as aggressively as you do.

Hope this helps, nice talking to you. Borovi4ok (talk) 07:27, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Доброго, let's not overcomplicate things. Turkish "denge" has a common source with all of the aforementioned, those are all Turkic languages. Where exactly "denge" comes into Turkic from is indeed unknown, might or might not be of Persian origin. However, "denge" had another meaning which cognates with modern-day English "worth" (not in the "value" sense, but in the "equilibrium" sense). Therefore, by extension, all derivatives thereof meaning "money" in Russian and several Turkic/Altaic languages (no matter how these are pronounced, I think you'd agree that all share the same root) clearly passed through "denge" sometime during the Ottoman Empire. --Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 15:40, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

This Chinese word is the likely etymon for most senses in most Turkic langauges: 當 (ESTJa I page 193). There might also have been conflation with other roots, some of them borrowed (among them from Persian), some native, such as -tek(i) ('until/like'). See also Doerfer. In any case, a Chinese borrowing presupposes the word being borrowed very early, so linking to a reconstruction and discussing all possibilities there is warranted. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 16:01, 9 November 2021 (UTC)

Agreed. But my point was we have more proof that "деньги" and its derivatives came from Turkic than where "denge" originally came from. @Borovi4ok KK, KY, UZ, UG may derive from Turkish/Turkic, but the sense of "equally exchangeable value" bridges it directly with Russian. --Whydoesitfeelsogood (talk) 02:27, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Whydoesitfeelsogood, I am disappointed by your behavior, and will be looking into reporting it.

You are pushing your POV although you apparently do not understand much in the topic.

I do not think Turkish denge (“balance”) has anything to do with this topic. If you think otherwise, please show evidence. To me, it is a separate entity derived from a separate Proto-turkic archetype.

Your phrasing in "the sense of "equally exchangeable value" bridges it directly with Russian" does not make much sense. Russian in this context is only the lexical recipient.

Whydoesitfeelsogood, I hope you you can act more reasonable. Borovi4ok (talk) 14:33, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

болаҡ

Есть слово шишмә из персидского - родник, источник. А есть тюркское булак (бұлақ, bulaq и т.д.), но почему-то в печатных словарях башкирского такого слова не находится (плохо ищу?). Оно вышло из обихода? В татарском такое слово можно найти, например река в Казани. 188.19.160.217 21:13, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

Доброго времени суток! Спасибо за вопрос.

Такое слово в башкирском существует, оно зафиксировано, например, в Академическом словаре башк.яз., можно найти его в гидронимах ([24], [25], [26]) и в производных от них топонимах ([27]).

Другое дело, что оно, как вы верно предположили, практически вышло из обихода. Кроме шишмә, могу привести еще пару синонимов. Borovi4ok (talk) 19:30, 1 January 2022 (UTC)