:::: I share some of Heka's concerns, especially taking into account various sockpuppets of formerly blocked uses enjoying the hide-and-seek game and challenging our rules hospitable to anons. When they get blocked for bypassing the blocks, they cry about censorship. I don't know what tools admins may have when they are outnumbered by careless or even hostile editors but I would suggest we need something to bulk-undo edits of editors identified as unreliable, especially if they have been warned several times or are known to be sockpuppets of formerly blocked users. We already have [[Special:Nuke]], we need something to mass undo edits by user name/IP. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 13:31, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
:::: I share some of Heka's concerns, especially taking into account various sockpuppets of formerly blocked uses enjoying the hide-and-seek game and challenging our rules hospitable to anons. When they get blocked for bypassing the blocks, they cry about censorship. I don't know what tools admins may have when they are outnumbered by careless or even hostile editors but I would suggest we need something to bulk-undo edits of editors identified as unreliable, especially if they have been warned several times or are known to be sockpuppets of formerly blocked users. We already have [[Special:Nuke]], we need something to mass undo edits by user name/IP. --[[User:Atitarev|Anatoli T.]] <sup>([[User talk:Atitarev|обсудить]]</sup>/<sup>[[Special:Contributions/Atitarev|вклад]])</sup> 13:31, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
::::: But since I come with a different IP each time and most often you don’t detect my edits (and when you do I afterwards re-edit them to your despair): tough luck.
: While I am surprised that Heka is not an admin, they are a patroller and rollbacker, so they have the relevant tools to help. It might be the case that abuse filters could be made to flag entries specific to Finnish etymologies for further review. - [[User:TheDaveRoss|<span class="mysig">TheDaveRoss</span>]] 14:54, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
: While I am surprised that Heka is not an admin, they are a patroller and rollbacker, so they have the relevant tools to help. It might be the case that abuse filters could be made to flag entries specific to Finnish etymologies for further review. - [[User:TheDaveRoss|<span class="mysig">TheDaveRoss</span>]] 14:54, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Image captions and descriptions of the representing objects such as paintings
An editor (@Sgconlaw) likes to place into image captions descriptions of representing objects such as paintings, engravings and the like. Like, he said "An engraving from a 16th-century treatise by Levinus Hulsius" in an image at triangulation before I removed that. In that entry, we now have a to-and-fro.
I oppose this practice. I oppose having a description of the representing object (painting, engraving) even in the note created via <ref>. Such a description can be found on Commons. Wiktionary is a dictionary and its images and captions should help learn about the referents, or in some cases about character strokes. Wiktionary should not contain any marginally relevant tidbits only because they could be interesting. Since, there is no tight relation between the referent and the representing object; anything can be on a painting, and the painting can be in any gallery in the world. It is random noise.
I oppose Dan's unnecessariy rigid approach. The information is useful to the reader, and placing it in a footnote is an acceptable compromise between having it in the caption itself and not having it at all. — SGconlaw (talk) 09:28, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Useful to the reader" is not enough; "partains to dictionary" or "befits a dictionary" is required. Like, the possible cures of pneumonia could be useful to the reader, but have no place in a dictionary. And strictly speaking, these tidbits are not useful in the sense in which a knife or a fridge are useful (and definitions, if you are a translator); it just fuels idle curiosity. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:44, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wiktionary is not a print dictionary; space is not an issue. We are also not talking about reams of information that something like "cures of pneumonia" might entail. I maintain that providing some source information that places an image in context is useful to the reader. And what is wrong with "idle curiosity"? One of the beauties of the Wikipedia project is the serendipity of discovering something else interesting while you are looking for one thing. In any case, I remain guided by any clearly established consensus on the issue. — SGconlaw (talk) 10:06, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't agree: "engraving from a 16th-century treatise" is valuable contextual information. This information is conveniently in one place, I don't have to click through to Commons, wait for the page to load and then scroll through the page to find that information. Also think of a situation where the page is read in an offline reader (e.g. Kiwix), without access to Commons. – Jberkel12:02, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To me, the main point is that knowing it's an "engraving from a 16th-century treatise" is lexicographically irrelevant. I just want our entries to "get to the point", which is offering lexicographical information. I want as much of that as possible, and in that sense do I agree that "space is not an issue"; but I don't want anything else.
And frankly, I think our attentions are already solicited enough by ten thousands different things that we don't need more of that; I find it actually refreshing to have a single-minded environment, focused on one thing only: words. I don't want more occasions for idle curiosity and serendipity. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 12:22, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As for serendipity, all these definitions alone provide for it: you may have wanted one sense of triangulation, but get a multitude of definitions instead; and then you have derived terms and related terms to explore further if you are in an explorative mood. Or click on a category to get more items. All lexicographical. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:03, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Dan. I think the information is best included under "References," not in the caption, where the sole purpose of the picture is to illustrate a definition. I don't care who took the photo, or painted the picture, or carved the statue, I just care about the lexicographical information. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 19:32, 1 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Me too. The caption should be as simple as possible and lexicographically focused. The caption currently on that entry ("People determining the width of a river by triangulation (sense 1)") is ideal, although I would like to get rid of the non-lexicographic information altogether, not even placing it in a footnote. People can click through to the file description page if they want to know more about the picture itself. This, that and the other (talk) 03:32, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with SGconlaw and Jberkel. I don't see why images should be 100% about lexicographical information without adding any other information. The added information provides useful and interesting context and takes up so little space that it hardly distracts or obscures anything lexicographical. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 03:40, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Images should be 100% lexicographical because Wiktionary should be 100% lexicographical. From Wiktionary:Criteria_for_inclusion#Wiktionary_is_not_an_encyclopedia: "Care should be taken so that entries do not become encyclopedic in nature; if this happens, such content should be moved to Wikipedia, but the dictionary entry itself should be kept. ¶ Wiktionary articles are about words, not about people or places. Articles about the specific places and people belong in Wikipedia."
I don't think the WT:CFI is very apt in this context. It is clearly talking about Wiktionary entries that essentially become Wikipedia articles. The issue at hand is whether it is appropriate to provide some sourcing information for images used in entries in a "References" section. Plus, browser settings vary from user to user; on my browser the same caption is nowhere near even half the height of the image. I also do not see why definitions wrapping to another line is an issue. The text remains entirely readable, and we have other forms of content such as example boxes that also cause line wrapping. — SGconlaw (talk) 10:56, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Definition line wrapping is acceptable when caused by lexicographical content; it is annoying when caused by non-lexicographical random tidbits added to make the entry more artificially "interesting", to people who do not find lexicographical information interesting enough. The CFI passage may not have been intended for image captions but rather for definitions, but that does not change the impact and significance of its wording, which is: let Wiktionary show lexicographical content, and none other. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:25, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see why longer image captions should be considered a problem, I have done this myself on occasion. In fact captions can be used to supplement the definition, and I don't see why DP is picking on Sgconlaw in particular. It seems to be DP's pet hate. DonnanZ (talk) 12:01, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've called Sgconlaw into the discussion via a ping since almost all instances of the problem that I have seen were from him, and I found it only fair for him to join the discussion. Captions should not supplement definitions; if definitions are incomplete, they should be expanded. Moving encyclopedic content from definitions to captions is still in violation of WT:CFI as formulated. Moreover, encyclopedic content about the referent is still more worthwhile than telling us the author of a painting. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:07, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't care for the extras, which remind me of what you find on a museum exhibit. I would rather not have them, but if we are going to include them, make them into alt text that shows only when you hover over the image. Does the standard image markup have a parameter for this, or do we need to have a template that provides the option? I know it can be done in html, but that would clutter up the wikitext and make it less accessible to those who don't know html. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:18, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Re: "space is not an issue". Screen space often is an issue. (Download time can be an issue, though long captions don't have a material effect.) If the problem is screen space we could resort to show/hide bars to have it both ways: Lexicographical content in the bar, non-lexicographical content hidden by default.
Definitions are not the sole kind of lexicographical content which an image (or sound, etc) can support: I use images that provide some support for the semantic etymology of a term. The first image at Godiva will serve to illustrate why Godiva quadricolor has the specific epithet it does and, less clearly, why the genus name. DCDuring (talk) 15:07, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I was thinking the other day the ability to show or hide captions would be a good idea, with "hide" as the default setting. Would that please everybody, DP even? DonnanZ (talk) 17:32, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Equinox: Would it be more confusing than having the encyclopedic caption? or just more confusing than a caption with only lexicographic information? DCDuring (talk) 18:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Here I'm talking about any caption versus none at all, not about the specific content. It's a matter of distinguishing senses. Equinox◑22:23, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A major benefit of hypertext over earlier forms of text is the ability to follow hyperlinks to learn more about something. These are optional side routes. I might see a pic and think "I wonder who took that photograph for Mediawiki", or "I wonder which year that oil painting was done in", but those are diversions; they are what clicking and linking are for. We should not put that lexicographically irrelevant info directly into the entry. Equinox◑22:24, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Why are header levels the way they are?
Why are we not using L1 headers at all and why are etymology/pronunciation/POS all L3 instead of POS and one of the others being nested within the third? So why isn't L1 language, L2 pronunciation and etymology/POS L3 or even POS nested as L4 beneath etymology? Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 11:32, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If I understand this correctly an L1 header like =Norwegian Nynorsk= would be far too big, I tried it. ==Norwegian Nynorsk== is more acceptable. DonnanZ (talk) 11:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A more general question about headers: Why are always sized by level? I can understand why the sizing makes some sense from the top of an L2 section. But, IMO. headings appearing after the main lexical content like "References", "Further reading", "Anagrams", etc. don't merit L3 heading size. In addition, "Alternative forms", "Pronunciation", and, to a lesser extent, "Etymology" don't merit the font size we use. Couldn't the structuring function sometimes served by "Etymology" (and less often "Pronunciation") be supported by some means other than heading size? DCDuring (talk) 14:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Page titles are already L1 headers. Many pages don't even have etymologies or pronunciations which would mean we are putting everything under a blank "Etymology" header- consider the millions of inflected entries. Furthermore you should think about how multiple etymologies will interact with multiple pronunciations. DTLHS (talk) 18:20, 2 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, page titles. I would assume multiple etymologies will interact with multiple pronunciations the same way as now: One of them comes on top, then the rest gets sorted in below it, then the next one comes on top... Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 09:31, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The interaction of Etymology and Pronunciation headers was a long-standing issue between User:EncycloPetey ("EP") and the late Robert Ullmann. EP's concern was, for the Latin entries he was interested in, sometimes it made more sense (for him, at least) for PoSes to be organized first by pronunciation, then by etymology. As a result Latin entries were excluded from the operation of one of Ullmann's bots that attempted to ensure that ELE header rules were followed. EP never came up with a counterproposal to the ELE approach that gives Etymology priority. DCDuring (talk) 12:41, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Because we could never come up with an alternative to Etymology-first structure, see an entry like palma#Latin for a simply-complicated page where the interaction of Etymology and Pronunciation creates issues. Two etymologies, each of which have two pronunciations, where the pronunciations are tied to specific inflected forms. This same situation of two different pronunciations of the same spelling, tied to the same etymology, but applied only to specific inflected forms occurs in nearly every regular Latin verb, as well as the ablative endings of nouns (and adjectives) as evinced by palma. So, because Etymology has priority, we have to use two different Pronunciation sections under each Etymology section. --EncycloPetey (talk) 14:38, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Etymology doesn't get priority when a certain bot places Alternative forms above it, which is why I am beginning to treat Alternative forms as L4. That way the bot leaves them alone. DonnanZ (talk) 23:29, 3 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I always held the view that pronunciation should per default be the first header by which things are sorted after spelling unless there is strong reason to do otherwise, which can be argued for briseadh, effectively making it a case-by-case issue. Of course this is a problem for consistency. and while as an editor I understand why it is done the way it is, as a user I think that the pronunciation section of briseadh is an monstrosity. Why are the verbal pronunciations put above the noun and not above the verb? Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 00:10, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Korn: The way I see it, the Pronunciation section of briseadh applies to the entire Irish entry and not just to the POS following it. Would you prefer it if it looked like this? I can see a case could be made for it, but it also seems a bit like overkill. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk12:08, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wow, I thought I'd consider this overkill too, but now that I see it, yes, yes I would prefer if it looked like this. A lot less scrolling around in the page at the cost of some redundancy. Definitely the user experience I prefer. Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 12:16, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
An incredible issue of Actualités just fall on Wiktionary with two articles about words, some words about Wiki Indaba, an tremendous dictionary that will change the world, stats and news as usual.
There are at least two topics in Wiktionary that are especially vulnerable for speculation: 1) reconstructed entries and 2) etymologies. I have noted that there are anon users who show perhaps too much interest in these, adding fantastic theories about whatever, often based only on phonetic similitude between two words. This has lead me to thinking that reconstructed entries and, if technically feasible, also the etymology -sections of mainspace articles should be the domain of registered users only. It takes the time of several wise men to check the work of one fool, who can use a changing array of IP-addresses. I'd like to invite discussion about this topic. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:24, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There are ways to protect reconstructed entries, but there is no way to protect only sections of pages (without a significant overhaul in how we structure our pages anyhow). As to whether we should, I don't think so. Those who patrol pages should perhaps flag changes to etymologies in some way for further review. - TheDaveRoss12:57, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As one of those people who patrol, etymology is a bright line I avoid touching due to the likelihood of on-wiki drama. I agree it should not be separated to a sub-page or namespace (or further abuse filter abuse,) but I also disagree it should be made off-limits. Poor anon contributions are often a symptom of future good contributions, and other negative personal outcomes. - Amgine/t·e19:40, 4 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
IMO it's important that people can do stuff without signing up. I remember the 1990s Internet where you could roam free and comment here, chat there, and never give anyone a name, or have to invent YET ANOTHER stupid password. Okay, now we have to deal with a massive influx of millions of stupid children, but requiring an account is close to having a paywall; and wikis are supposed to be open. Unless we're seeing 98% bad edits from IPs I think it's a very bad step to punish them proleptically. Equinox◑02:30, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
To address Heka's comment more directly: we do have the "unpatrolled" flag on entries until someone looks at them. If anything, the problem might be that we don't have enough patrollers (whether actual admins don't bother, or we don't speak the right languages, or we don't have enough admin users). Equinox◑02:31, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Perhaps this is a Finnish-only problem, then. We have a very limited supply of admins who are capable of patrolling etymologies (I'm not admin, nor knowledgeable enough on history of words), not to even mention the reconstruction pages. To put it straight, I'm afraid that a considerable portion of our pro-fin reconstructions may be bullshit. --Hekaheka (talk) 12:43, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I share some of Heka's concerns, especially taking into account various sockpuppets of formerly blocked uses enjoying the hide-and-seek game and challenging our rules hospitable to anons. When they get blocked for bypassing the blocks, they cry about censorship. I don't know what tools admins may have when they are outnumbered by careless or even hostile editors but I would suggest we need something to bulk-undo edits of editors identified as unreliable, especially if they have been warned several times or are known to be sockpuppets of formerly blocked users. We already have Special:Nuke, we need something to mass undo edits by user name/IP. --Anatoli T.(обсудить/вклад)13:31, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
But since I come with a different IP each time and most often you don’t detect my edits (and when you do I afterwards re-edit them to your despair): tough luck.
While I am surprised that Heka is not an admin, they are a patroller and rollbacker, so they have the relevant tools to help. It might be the case that abuse filters could be made to flag entries specific to Finnish etymologies for further review. - TheDaveRoss14:54, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There has definitely been a recent influx of anons adding speculative or just plain wrong etymological info to mostly Finnish and Proto-Finnic entries, building up faster than I at least can possibly keep up with, most of which also smells like the work of one dedicated person (recent examples include 213.216.248.45, 109.240.25.153, 188.238.130.124, 188.238.169.74). I can think of a few remedies:
indeed ban anon editing of reconstructions (but this seems unlikely to have a major effect, since mainspace etymologies would remain for editing);
make sure our mainspace etymologies are sourced, and keep a close eye on (auto-flag?) any edits that remove sources or add unsourced information;
add something like Appendix:False cognates where anonymous observations on etymology are welcome (the four anons above have been adding "X is false cognate with Y" rather liberally around, even though this is usually irrelevant for the actual etymology)
But I fear that eventually we may have to abandon maintaining reliable etymologies on Wiktionary altogether, for smaller languages with fewer dedicated editors at least. Etymology is a much more academic discipline than general lexicography, that requires more background knowledge and caution. As our coverage grows, more and more knowledgeable editors are needed to keep track of all the etymological information we have already, and to prevent decay over time. Unlike casual drive-by vandals, amateur etymologists are often also quite dedicated to pushing their views.
— FWIW I am currently working in a project to establish an online repository (a closed wiki, in fact) of proper academic research on Finnish and general Uralic etymology, so I expect that the amount of time and energy that I can spend on patrolling Wiktionary's etymology coverage is not going to be increasing in the future. --Tropylium (talk) 15:11, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
April LexiSession: mining
This month is mine! Not mine as if one possessed it, but mine as in mining, exploitation of minerals. The reason behind this theme is that in the French revolutionary calendar, April was renamed Germinal, and it is also the title of a book by Emile Zola about miners. So, mines!
By the way, LexiSession in short: a collaborative transwiktionary experiment. You're invited to participate however you like and to suggest next month's topic. The idea is to look at other community improvements on the same topic to improve our own pages and learn foreign way of contributing. If you participate, please let us know here or on Meta, to keep track on the evolution of LexiSession (like Lingo Bingo Dingo did last month, thanks to him!). If you can spread the word to other Wiktionaries, you are welcome to do so. Ideally, LexiSession should be a booster for every Wiktionary on the same page, but it depend on the people, and I am still volunteer in this project, so with limited time to disseminate the message Noé10:14, 5 April 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Noé 17:04, 3 April 2018 (UTC)