User talk:Mnemosientje/2017

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ps.Brabantianitake? 15:23, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Not sure it's really dialectal, it's used in both Holland and Brabant in my experience, and probably elsewhere in the Low Countries too. Etymologiebank mentions no dialects specifically. — Kleio (t · c) 17:15, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

hav'ueva,ta!(inevarealyno~frequencyoutsideofmyarea(Boom,it=basicalyEDUCATEDGUESES(no=optimal,ino,ard2findsources tho..a.we=almorXPOSED2ea.othr>convergence,noalwaysbad!:) 18:49, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Having slight difficulties trying to interpret this longer message... forming less compact/contracted sentences may not be a bad idea for readability? — Kleio (t · c) 19:12, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

prob=endstagemuisarm;if utelme wotu'dntPARSi'lXPANDdadbitho;)

ps.ta4tryintho,apreciated! 21:28, 3 January 2017 (UTC)
Sorry to hear that :( The part after tho.. did not make a great deal of sense to me, though I think I'm getting the gist of it now. — Kleio (t · c) 18:42, 8 January 2017 (UTC)



orDIFB-Nl,nosur..@lingo bingo dingo213.49.48.43 10:51, 20 January 2017 (UTC)

Place names[edit]

I hope you don't mind me messaging you to say that voting is open on Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2017-01/Policy on place names. John Cross (talk) 11:24, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

@John Cross: I have already voted :p But thanks for the heads up! — Kleio (t · c) 11:25, 21 January 2017 (UTC)



ps.yCAPD.I?(isupozdwas"clio.. 15:44, 21 January 2017 (UTC)
Ah, I wasn't aware you'd been blocked. I suppose there were reasons for that, though, and I can't really help you on that front. I couldn't parse .. fe'dosoinSN/BRABsetin .. btw. Also, Wiktionary links are case sensitive, so User talk:Lingo bingo dingo is not Lingo Bingo Dingo's userpage; User talk:Lingo Bingo Dingo is.
Anyway, for any future contribs, note that we generally try to keep headword lines of entries a bit minimal, so your inclusion of non-ABN diminutives there is what may have annoyed @CodeCat. Because as far as I know, there's nothing against dialectal forms on Wiktionary -- provided, of course, that they can be attested with a dialectal spelling according to Wiktionary's rules for attestation (this is an important point). Perhaps, if you want to include a dialectal diminutive in -ke or -ken (there does not seem to be a standard for Southern diminutive endings; probably best to go with whichever is attested in permanently recorded media), it could be added as an alt form on the ABN diminutive's entry?
(Also, when adding dialectal usage examples, it's helpful to add a translation: non-natives looking up the word aren't going to be able to parse that level of informal, non-standard speech easily!)
My name is with an uppercase i because the proper Latin transcription (with a lowercase L) of Κλειώ had already been registered by some other user. This workaround works well enough for me. — Kleio (t · c) 16:16, 21 January 2017 (UTC)


fe'dosoinSN/BRABsetin-fe.woulddo so inSTanded.NED(snSETTING

dim1,2(-ie fe)etc.cansolvdad(buticantdo'mal,,evnmorsow/myarms(nwealchozourmainareaofeditin,rite?+igenrlyonlydosoinENTRYZicreat..(+kepinmindBRAB=mainlySPOKN(thoforaWHERppl.rite~theytalk'elps!:)(itùdb.grea2device(our)spellinrulz4brab(isearchd4it+foundzilch:(+wt=INcomplet,nonlyw/DIM..(personaly,isayONNEKEfe(i'drathrDROPDEDthansayin"hondje(unlesi/NL)thoimprepared2telANY1"



I'd be ok with dialectal diminutives if the standard one were listed too. Listing only the dialectal one gives the impression that it's the only one and thus standard. —CodeCat 16:30, 21 January 2017 (UTC)


r | prev) 19:13, 21 January 2017‎ Leftmostcat (talk | contribs)‎ m . . (282 bytes) (-19)‎ . . (Reverted edits by +ta4xplainin!grateflhug:) 21:48, 21 January 2017 (UTC)

Check which plural? You're going to have to use a more clear writing style to get through to some of the other people here by the way, and start listing the ABN diminutives first, because some people seem to be getting a bit annoyed. Not a big problem for me personally, but I don't think this is going to really work in the long run, considering that there's a lot of people editing this place, and there are some rules as to which forms are given precedence. NB this, and Metaknowledge's reply to you on Chuck Entz' talk page. It's a bit of a nasty situation because as I understand it, you can't exactly fix your strain injury, but this doesn't really work for most people. — Kleio (t · c) 15:24, 22 January 2017 (UTC)


asiwrote2lbbd earlier2day:ixpct@LEASTolerans(inougothat;)4myEXISTNS/RITIN,w/sumluk@leastSUMppl'ltrybit'ardr(asunLBD,wiktik,robiSWE(convertd"1s,great,givz'ope,it=posibl!!:)aprciated!)asicant(ugothat,ino<decntcomunityzdoso2,~75%editrsher'vstilsumway2go..:(

ifCODCATwantsSNinther,thenSHEnedz2doso(nW/OtakinoutOTHRlcts!)(ornedi'oldherABLBODIED'ANDZ4dad??DUTCHincludzBRAB(i'dprefrd'mSEPRAT,a.4reasns sen2day,butyea)andtakinitout'mounts2VANDALISM(ofwichIstandedlygetblamed,virtuofmyRSI)ifsuch/herbehaviorgozUNchekd,lilwondrfe.BRAB/SNLinfo=fewnfarinbetwen,logicalconsekwensofsuchactns,ultimatlyINDULGDbyDUM(75%,@v.leastinmatrzdisability,buthey,uzd2b95%,SUMprogresmade!)comunity(nthenigetblokd4calinASPADASPAD,uh <niliteralyslept~this(i'dPREMIGRAIN,no'elpdbyusualCODCATHEATR.ANTIXsai:((

ps(jusawlite:|:PLstud4-ease,sory4confusn(asidinoticeDUBLMEANINther.. 21:23, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

He requested a check for kopvalling ("pl" was "please" here), where a second, Belgian diminutive form got deleted by Leftmostcat. I undid that reversal. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:37, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/January[edit]

Why have you undid my revision? Basically, what he did is typed a bit of nonsense and added some links. This is definitely vandalism and it is complete nonsense. Secondly, this same user keeps vandalising the beer parlour. I don't want to go into an edit war but I still think it is vandalism. Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:32, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

It's not nonsense. This user has trouble typing, and yes his posts can be difficult to understand, but it is possible to make sense out of them. --WikiTiki89 20:43, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
I can fully understand that. In my opinion, if the user has trouble with English, s/he should be contributing in the Wiktionary of his own language but I did find it hard to understand. Pkbwcgs (talk) 20:47, 23 January 2017 (UTC)
Nobody said the user has difficulties with English. As has again been said here by Tiki and by others in the BP discussion, the user has a disability which prevents them from typing easily, so they use a shorthand. — Kleio (t · c) 20:56, 23 January 2017 (UTC)


vriendinneke(ok4lief;)=V.comninBRAB(buti=nogona adtilthingz'vcleardup abit(nobenefit2dic.ofkors, i'dsay4igoTUF2unhardetc..


1@datimei/part igues(nodifrnt inBROADRSOCIETY(itry2RAISE AWARNEStho,butuf,menofames,sofindurway2mediaetc..),it=astrugl,idowotican,nuppl's'elp=SOpreciiated,leme telu!hug+2wiktik!(ino it=posibl(c litetc,NEW-OLDmacau)butcanb.realtuf,sota!! 22:07, 23 January 2017 (UTC)

Personally I think the best solution would be to somehow make at least part of every comment more easily parsable, so you don't look like a vandal at first sight. If I were in your shoes, I'd start by registering an account and editing my signature to include a little [why do I abbreviate my words?] message or the like, linking that to a subpage of my userpage explaining the issue. Another point is using the right / consistent indentation when replying, it makes it look more organised and thought-out. And, though I know it's difficult, possibly include more spaces, and fewer difficult-to-interpret or overlapping abbreviations, but I really have no idea how you type and I don't know what's realistically achievable...
Your situation, which I do sympathise with and I wish people were slightly more patient with, is complicated by the fact that people on volunteer-built projects like these often can't be arsed to put a lot of time into understanding things like this. (The fact we're discussing dialectal Dutch which most people here know nothing about doesn't help either..) And on first sight, the posts do look like gibberish, so, instead of assuming an extraordinary situation as is the case here, they assume it's vandalism as this sort of long string of characters generally would be. It is especially because of this that I think it'd help a lot if there were some parts of fully-written text, like the signature suggestion and also elsewhere if possible, in each comment -- especially those made in places where editors are not familiar with you. Registering an account could also have the added benefit of getting people who patrol anonymous edits at RecentChanges off your ass, and allow people to check your user page (where you can inform people about the situation) if they're wondering what on earth you're on about.
As for CodeCat.. I can't really blame her too much, I respect her too much for the contributions she's made here even if I have a different attitude towards your edits. I think she's not very patient with edits that don't really follow the rules of how we do entries here (eg at vriendinneke), and she seems to prefer to just plain revert edits adding incorrectly formatted info than amending them into usable content where the edit does include a kernel of value. This may seem abrasive, but honestly, if you spend a lot of time patrolling edits here eventually it becomes difficult to be arsed to clean up after every edit, and many editors share this attitude; we're just volunteers using our free time after all. Still, as I mentioned earlier, in your case given the whole muisarm thing I think some patience would be reasonable. — Kleio (t · c) 02:29, 24 January 2017 (UTC)


akount:ifCOM.CONSENSUS1ofmy2OLDER1s'db.REACTIVATED(oRENAMED"svenrsi,asSUMpplb4'dexactlycauturdrift,signatur,istiltypdin(theninTWstil)mycvetc(buthentherwerepplhuobjectdgenst"ursign.b-in2longetc.sai(user@Chuck Entzmiteb.agudstartinpoint(ortransferin

oldinfo2newakount?alfinew/me! owityp:ifistayw/inmyfunctional reserve,(wich=limited!myMOBILLITY=k,ijuscantoverduit(lastdayz=realyonedg4m..a.indentatnetc.almounts2MORtypin,that=prob(ivalredytryd2putsumorspacesin(sotxtkeps on1screnw/outscrolin<itrywotican,=jusLIMITED


losumofwotitypd(uh)thruFFcrash+oldpcNOelp(nowtypsMORSLOWLYthanme,uh(soprufreadinearimposiblnow(asicantc.wheritplacesdaCURSOR5UNLESIwaitaLONGtime+reklikinvain(POIZN4myarmsdad!..-ta4alurefets! 10:20, 24 January 2017 (UTC)


I don't think the diminutive has any other meaning not covered by the regular noun;SUR if it did, that info would have to be listed on the main, not the diminutive entry, I think.<eh,uMIStypd(countrintuitivdad.. 09:46, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I did write that at like 3am, insomnia clouding my mind :) I meant that the diminutive has no unexpected second meaning (besides the regular meaning of a diminutive), and if it did, it would probably be listed on the main entry in most cases. Given that the diminutive refers uses directly back to the main entry that's not so weird imo — Kleio (t · c) 12:48, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

dad=samemeaninalriteafaicanc,butc.bolleke<ow'd udothat(bol=ntrealyusd4it..(thothey'd,i'd!(ixpectedREVERS,c?<DIMspesifikinfo@dim,rest@mainword62.235.178.189 14:01, 24 January 2017 (UTC)

I've thought about it some more.. with diminutives, if they have a meaning so radically divergent from the meaning of the parent word, I think you'll probably want to put the info on the diminutive entry yes. As has been done at bolleke (I cleaned it up a little) — Kleio (t · c) 01:58, 26 January 2017 (UTC)


felfre2vluk!:)(iputitheir as4pinginLBD=longr2typ(butopted4th=waynow:) 08:46, 25 January 2017 (UTC)

Lotsa stuff there, I had a look at some of it, though LBD has already addressed most of it. — Kleio (t · c) 18:54, 25 January 2017 (UTC)


for your RFV/RFD attention. Damn Sisyphean task but some of us appreciate it :) Equinox 02:15, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

It's not my favourite part of Wiktionary either but hey, it's on my watchlist and I'm an insomniac and a serial procrastinator, so might as well :p — Kleio (t · c) 02:17, 26 January 2017 (UTC)

Re Special:Diff/42079270[edit]

Byzantine Greek (gkm) is, I believe, an etymology-only language. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 20:49, 27 January 2017 (UTC)

@I'm so meta even this acronym -- ah, I wasn't aware there was a meaningful difference between dialects and etymology-only languages, thought they were handled by the same modules. — Kleio (t · c) 17:43, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
I'm pretty clueless about the module structure, but AFAIK, dialects are handled by these modules and are used for {{alter}}, whereas etymology-only languages are listed at Wiktionary:List of languages/special#Etymology-only languages and are used in etymology sections and derivation categories, but are not allowed as level-two headers. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 07:55, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

gothRUNZnodisplayonmyFF:([edit] 16:49, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

You mean the Gothic alphabet used for our Gothic entries, or actual runes, such as the ones we use for Proto-Norse (Elder Futhark)? There is a page with info on Gothic alphabet fonts, info on runes is here. — Kleio (t · c) 17:40, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

r-wotu'vbendoinofLOTSrecently(soFORMRigues?(i=suchBANaUSE.. 20:42, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, that's Gothic, I've been working on that language for the past 10 months or so; probably >90% of my contributions on Wiktionary have been to Gothic entries. You want the Gothic alphabet for that (there's only a few known Gothic inscriptions that use runes), so the first one I linked in my previous reply. Couldn't really parse BANaUSE here btw. — Kleio (t · c) 20:53, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Banause<=nl2ithout(vd?butREDlinkd..<orEN(sbFOKDadentryofmineup(idun~doinDEntryztho,butfoundadsuch aGLARINmis:|(sai=boorishpesn;)<bitCHEKYdad,chukl(<<myCAPLOKswitchdof,sory81.11.219.200 23:51, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


so/-ta:o(iheard-tri-sinslil<b-nldifrens?<butno/H(ididwensmalr>asumdFONETKuh81.11.219.200 21:41, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

Some unclarity here too: are you asking about the schwa I removed, do Belgians pronounce it with /ə/ in the second syllable? The only pronunciation (Belgian) I could find was in this video, which actually places the stress on the second syllable (which seemed wrong to me, but perhaps it is pronounced that way elsewhere?) and also has the /a:/. — Kleio (t · c) 21:46, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

canwemail(myeditgotFILTRDevnsoiwas carfl..<isentit2lbd,praps hecan4wedorso81.11.219.200 22:20, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

I can't guarantee I would reply to emails more than comments here, as I'm simply quite busy at the moment (sometimes I procrastinate by editing this place a couple of hours, but currently somewhat less often). Would emailing allow you to communicate more easily somehow? — Kleio (t · c) 16:20, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

noconcernzw/u,2contrary!=jusumtaimzmyRPLYZdungethruFILTER(apndw/lbd,sohe alowdme2thensentBLOKDCMNT/mail,c?(ixhaustmyslf ifiedit~recently,uguyzvENERGY,great!:) 18:03, 4 February 2017 (UTC)


=a.~canister<k-=DE?jerrycan<misesNLidsay(weuzit)then)orbig(5l.nso)flask: 23:49, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

askdFAMILY:a.bigcylindrikcontainr4lego,candyetc81.11.219.200 17:10, 3 February 2017 (UTC)
Wait, a jerrycan for lego and candy? I've only ever heard of those being used for liquids (especially water, milk, juice or fuel) personally. Or are you talking about bidon? A google suggested that's a kind of fancy water bottle used by cyclists, but perhaps it has multiple meanings too. I've added a Dutch part to the jerrycan entry by the way, feel free to add to it. — Kleio (t · c) 16:32, 4 February 2017 (UTC)


bidon4lego,yp(evnmyFAMwasnt2surãl othrmeaningzithoutof(a.~clothzbasket,wastebinetc(imiteb.rong.. 18:13, 4 February 2017 (UTC)


ta4tr.elp!-d-=fr.hebTge igues(yea,ow2adsai-wholesentenceIPA?(morgengav'sconcerns,ipingd

limes<aha;therwasALTETY@nlwp ithout
naam betrekking op de afwatering van het Duivense en Westervoortse broekland (-mers) via de beek Lee (Ly-) op de Rijn.<2.optnther(ijustuk1,et-dume..
btwLiemers (dialect), het Nederfrankisch-Nedersaksische dialect van de gelijknamige streek<'dth=falundrDUTCHifadedcontnt? 17:28, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
Well, the name Liemers is definitely the Dutch name for that dialect (as well), so I added it as a Dutch word. The dialect itself appears to be considered a dialect of Dutch, though of course it's always a bit vague where one draws the line (it seems to be in a grey area between Dutch dialects and Low Saxon - Nedersaksische - dialects). — Kleio (t · c) 18:05, 4 February 2017 (UTC)


sotheyDOgontop??(ilongdidso,butCCconsistently'corected'thatbyputin itlast:| 18:29, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Ohhh, I just noticed Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2016-09/Placement of "Alternative forms" 2 (weaker proposal). Yeah, it could go where CodeCat put them as well, but the other position is apparently also OK. — Kleio (t · c) 18:32, 4 February 2017 (UTC)
On an entry like mof, probably better to place them under the relevant etymology section, because afaik moef is not an alt-form of the senses of mof that are listed under the first etymology. — Kleio (t · c) 18:39, 4 February 2017 (UTC)


TA4ipa!(ENhasLOTSmisin,no1sprioritytsems:/(for me1.ardw/andz+2.iofngo2WT4enpron,uh(i=realdum,ah! 19:45, 4 February 2017 (UTC)


dW-VELUWSb.removdasLOWSAX?i'dntdoENTRYthertho..(wot chekin1s edits=gud4(sumtaimzARD2cFRMTchangesfr.PREV(nwentiredñow.. 23:00, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

1.[edit]<intrestin( arren moede=redarresame81.11.219.200 22:25, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


I wanted to ask about this word because you reverted my edit. This is because the user has added a red link so I thought it shouldn't be there. I can see that you have now made it into a definition and put back the red link. Pkbwcgs (talk) 19:30, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, SemperBlotto created the entry, so now the link makes sense. — Kleio (t · c) 19:32, 6 February 2017 (UTC)


Hi Kleio, please add Babel (or at lease use the categories for it), so that people of similar language skill can find you. This is taken really seriously, and people need to have a Babel to tell what languages they speak. – AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 11:52, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

People can read my profile, does anyone actually dig through those Babel user categories? They're full of inactive editors. Anyway, I suppose I'll add some categories when I have time for it and am not on my phone. I dislike the Babel template itself though, so I'll pass on that one. — Kleio (t · c) 11:57, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, do something like User:Msh210 does. He doesn't have a Babelbox, yet he still can be found to to his categories – AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 12:00, 12 February 2017 (UTC)
@Awesomemeeos, KIeio: Yes, I sometimes use those user categories; for example, I used Category:User lt to track down a Lithuanian speaker who could tell me what pagrindinė forma (principal part) meant (although it was Metaknowledge who ended up telling me). I too have found the detritus of inactive users' accounts in those categories annoying; would a Beer-parlour proposal to remove from those categories any editor inactive for one year or longer find favour with you two? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 08:10, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@I'm so meta even this acronym: Yes. That would be great. But still, move the inactive user's categories to a different section, just for my sake XD — AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 08:18, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
I suppose that would require some sort of fiddling with the Babel template, unless you just want to remove the template from the user pages of inactive users - which seems a bit invasive. But if there is some agreeable way to achieve this I'm all for it. — Kleio (t · c) 10:48, 27 February 2017 (UTC)
@Awesomemeeos, KIeio: What I intend to suggest is adding a parameter (|inactive=, |nocat=, or something like that) to {{Babel}} which, when called, would remove that user page from any of the subcategories of Category:User coders, Category:User languages, and Category:User scripts. My hope is that adding the code to call that parameter is an automatable task, in which case a bot could take care of it. Does that sound good to you two? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:26, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
I see no real downsides to that, and wouldn't object. — Kleio (t · c) 00:37, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
@KIeio, Awesomemeeos: Cool. I've started the discussion at Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2017/April#Removing inactive editors from Category:User coders, Category:User languages, and Category:User scripts. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:02, 10 April 2017 (UTC)


I saw that you've been removing some of Verbo's example sentences. Nice job! Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 15:52, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Heh, I had to clean out his large crop of English spanking sentences some time ago. Fortunately, they were easy to find because he always (bizarrely) used the word "knave" for a naughty boy. Equinox 15:56, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
He seems to have been literally (ie etymologically) translating the Dutch word 'knaap', a dated term meaning 'lad' which pedos seem to be somewhat fond of. Verbo's example sentences remind me of Reve's homoerotic prose, especially with all the talk of physical punishment, although afaik Reve wasn't a kiddy-diddler. — Kleio (t · c) 18:41, 20 March 2017 (UTC)
It looks like he was indeed a bit of a Reve redivivus. Maybe 'The Knave' even included a self-insertion somewhere of him humping a donkey (in the butt of course), though perhaps he preferred a dog. Those observations about his unusual prose were helpful in tracking down a few more of his examples by the way. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:52, 21 March 2017 (UTC)
We should have given him a good OTK spanking. Equinox 03:56, 19 November 2017 (UTC)

Gothic attestations: aihum and aigum[edit]

Hello again,

I was browsing the romanizations category of Gothic and decided to try the page aihum. I searched the Wulfilas bible for it and it turns out to be 1st person plural of aigan 'to have'. Fair enough. I looked at aihum and it's also 'we have!'

There are two attested words for "we have" - aigum and aihum. Is there a difference? How do I say aihum is also attested?


--Secondhand Work (talk) 10:51, 23 March 2017 (UTC)

Hey, and thanks for reminding me of that verb. It's a case of Grammatischer Wechsel, whereby the root alternates between aih- and aig-. It's not very consistent though apparently, as you found out. It seems 𐌰𐌹𐌷𐌿𐌼 (aihum) (and 𐌰𐌹𐌷𐌿𐌸 (aihuþ), which I just came across as well) are unexpected forms; one would expect the form with the -g- root there, but apparently that's not a hard rule? I'd treat it as any other non-lemma form and just link it up via the proper templates to the main entry at 𐌰𐌹𐌲𐌰𐌽 (aigan). For an example you can see how I handled the variant spelling 𐌲𐍂𐌴𐌹𐍄𐌹𐌸 (greitiþ), although in the case of 𐌰𐌹𐌷𐌿𐌸 (aihuþ) the expected -g- stem equivalent cannot be listed as an alternative form because it is not attested. I've added a note above the conjugation table at the main entry informing readers of these variant forms (which are not in the inflection table), but I'll leave creating 𐌰𐌹𐌷𐌿𐌼 (aihum) and 𐌰𐌹𐌷𐌿𐌸 (aihuþ) to you. — Kleio (t · c) 15:55, 23 March 2017 (UTC)
P.S. when you don't know an etymology as with 𐍆𐌹𐌾𐌰𐌽 (fijan), try to use the template {{rfe|got}} so it can be found via Category:Gothic entries needing etymology. You can also often find clues to the etymology by looking at the relevant WhatLinksHere page, or having a look at Köbler's dictionary (which includes English glosses, too. Note that it also includes a lot of unattested words, so not everything that's in Köbler should be here). — Kleio (t · c) 15:57, 23 March 2017 (UTC)


I'm afraid it's merely a mention, but the word also appears here, page 77, line 25. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:21, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

How interesting, I thought the one in the Adespota was the only one from antiquity. A mention, I think, suffices for ancient words or words in a poorly documented language (in fact inclusion in a reliable dictionary I think is already enough), and I might add it soon. I still want to somehow find the one LSJ quotes, though, since it's most likely an actual use (since it's a comic fragment). — Kleio (t · c) 18:54, 4 April 2017 (UTC)
I've found the word in the 1970 edition of Meineke, vol. 4, page 680, fragment 311b, but it looks like basically the same text as the one from the Onomasticon to me. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Huh, maybe that really is the one attestation then..? In that case, it's not going to be interesting enough to quote in its entirety, since the context of the Onomastikon attestation is not very exciting. — Kleio (t · c) 16:48, 10 April 2017 (UTC)
Have you checked Poetae Comici Graeci, volume VIII ("Adespota")? --Barytonesis (talk) 21:13, 16 October 2017 (UTC)


Actually, this doesn't do anything. See mw:Manual:Echo for the technical details on why that is. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:58, 10 April 2017 (UTC)

Oh gee lol, now I feel a bit silly. Thanks for the heads up! — Kleio (t · c) 01:02, 10 April 2017 (UTC)


Hi, Kleio. I was wondering why you removed Old English Wikiwordbōc from Wiktionary, and Gothic 𐍅𐌹𐌺𐌹𐍀𐌰𐌹𐌳𐌾𐌰 from Wikipedia. I thought maybe the Old English Wiktionary and the Gothic Wikipedia had been closed, but I still find them at Wikiwordbōc and 𐍅𐌹𐌺𐌹𐍀𐌰𐌹𐌳𐌾𐌰. Granted, they are not abuzz with activity, but they're still there. —Stephen (Talk) 01:33, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

@Stephen G. Brown: Because they are dead languages and those terms clearly do not exist in their respective corpora, so surely they shouldn't be in a translation table? Unless we are to count these Wikis as attestations, but given that they're basically just modern conlang experiments, I wouldn't want to go that far. — Kleio (t · c) 01:46, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Those terms don't exist in any language except as the recently coined names of their respective Wiktionaries and Wikipedias. The main reason we have them is so people can more easily find those Wiktionaries and Wikipedias. I'm sure a lot of our editors would like to remove all links to and mentions of Old English and Gothic, but there might also be other editors who, like me, support keeping the names of any Wikipedia or Wiktionary in those languages that have them. Surely it would require a vote to delete them. —Stephen (Talk) 02:03, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
Actually, it's standard practice not to have links in translation tables unless they could potentially (or do) lead to entries. These entries can't be created because of lack of attestation, so we shouldn't have the translations. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:10, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
If that is the case, then most of the other languages need to be verified as well. It is unlikely that these two words are used anywhere but here, and scholars of most of the languages would probably consider these words as something closer to brand names rather than real words. If we are no longer going to keep these words just because we use them for all the Wiktionaries and Wikipedias, to make it easier to find them and pronounce them, then it may well be that only the English is attested. —Stephen (Talk) 09:00, 11 April 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) I agree. We shouldn't be using a translation table for this: what good is a redlink to a non-existent English Wiktionary entry in finding other wikis? There was already a link in the Wikipedia entry to Meta's list of Wikipedias, and I just added a link to their list of Wiktionaries in the Wiktionary entry. Users can follow those links to find lists of all the Wiktionaries and Wikipedias- not just the ones contributors feel inclined to add translations for. As for removing "links to and mentions of Old English and Gothic", no one is suggesting we get rid of our Gothic and Old English entries- just a few redlinks in a couple of translation tables. Chuck Entz (talk) 09:13, 11 April 2017 (UTC)

Regarding a revert[edit]

I replied. Flyer22 Reborn (talk) 06:18, 18 April 2017 (UTC)


Was that transliteration missing somehow? Where is it from? —CodeCat 18:41, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

See the creation edit summary at the Gothic-script entry. It's in the Gothic Calendar. — Kleio (t · c) 18:42, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Ahh ok. I sometimes forget there's other sources of Gothic. —CodeCat 18:44, 24 April 2017 (UTC) is really great to check for terms that haven't been imported by MewBot (just do a search for \Wterm\W) since it has a fair amount of fragments, though it's still missing some recent (2010s) discoveries like the Mangup inscriptions (9th century and from Crimea but with Wulfilan-seeming Gothic, which is really interesting) and the Gothica Bononiensia. — Kleio (t · c) 18:51, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

Long a in Gothic class 3 weak verbs[edit]

Hi! Thank you for your message on my page. I'm happy to help and my additions are useful. I didn't know if I replied to you on my page if you would get a notification so I thought I'd post this here as well. I'll watch this page so I get a notification if you reply here.

So my question, since you seem like a good person to ask: Do you have any information on the long 'a' in verbs like habān (𐌷𐌰𐌱𐌰𐌽)? I haven't been able to find anything in grammars that indicate that vowel is long. I'd love to read about it if you know of anything. Thanks! Lowena (talk) 22:09, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

It's based mainly on Don Ringe's reconstruction of Germanic. He asserts that the vowel was long. —CodeCat 22:12, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
@Rua Getting back to a very old discussion - I had a look at the relevant passage about factitive class 3 weak verbs in Ringe's PIE-to-PGmc book just now (p. 258), and he doesn't seem to mark the Gothic vowel as long; thus e.g. he writes "*armāną ‘pity’ (*‘consider poor’; Goth. arman, OHG ir-b-armēn)" (and his other Gothic example of the same category of verbs similarly lacks the macron). Based on this it seems he does not consider the Gothic vowel to have been long (unless he discusses it elsewhere that I missed?), or if he entertains the thought he is apparently too unsure of the matter to propose it at all in the relevant passage. Considering this and considering the absence of anyone else (as Lowena noted) bringing up this peculiarity of vowel length in Gothic, I am not sure we should keep marking these as long vowels in Gothic. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 07:35, 11 April 2019 (UTC)
@Lowena Looks like CodeCat addressed your question. As for your concern regarding notifications: using the {{ping}} template you can notify someone on any discussion page you like, like I just notified you using {{ping|Lowena}}. So, when replying to someone on your own talk page you can ping them there so they'll know you have replied. (I also tend to add other users' talk pages to my watchlist when I participate in a discussion there, so I can see when people reply without needing to be tagged.) — Kleio (t · c) 10:58, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

id parameter in etymology templates[edit]

You've used a parameter called "id" in some etymologies, but the name of the parameter is "pos" in these templates. Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:13, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

id serves a different function altogether: not to gloss, but to categorize when there's multiple suffixes in a language sharing one spelling, as at -ie. — Kleio (t · c) 13:19, 24 July 2017 (UTC)


Hey, thanks for adding -𐍃𐌽𐌰 (-sna). I'm wondering if a) should we moved *-asnō to *-snō and b) do we know if its descendents were productive or should we just assume a PGmc reconstruction? I can only find one OE -sn term with no other known Gmc cognates. --Victar (talk) 22:51, 26 July 2017 (UTC)

@Victar It's a bit tangled up and inconsistent atm, because if you confer *-gaz for example, you'll note that the entry doesn't have the initial vowel in the suffix (as the vowel depends entirely on the word the suffix is attached to; e.g. a-stems yield *-agaz; -ags in Gothic) in the main entry. Back when I created the entries for the Gothic reflexes of that specific suffix, I did however create them at -ags, -eigs, etc. separately, unlike in this case, where I created one main entry without the initial vowel at -sna. I suppose my decision back then makes sense considering that the reflexes of *-gaz are only ever attested with some sort of initial vowel in Gothic, whereas for the suffix -sna we find drauhsna without an initial vowel, but the net result is that the current treatment is a bit inconsistent between the two on Wiktionary.
To get to the point, I'd say it's best to have the main lemma for suffixes like this at entries without the initial vowel in the suffix, because I believe that vowel is simply dependent on the stem and not really part of the suffix. This is especially true in the case of *-asnō/-sna, where the aforementioned drauhsna is attested. (With this in mind I think I might make a main lemma entry at -𐌲𐍃 (-gs) to serve as a hub for the Gothic reflexes of *-gaz just to improve consistency with -sna.)
As for the productivity of -sna in Gothic, I'm not sure. If the relevant words were all just inherited and the suffix wasn't productive in Gothic at all, I'd have expected some cognates (e.g. 𐌰𐍂𐍈𐌰𐌶𐌽𐌰 vs. the other Germanic cognates without the suffix suggests Gothic productivity to me), but I haven't really investigated the matter in any depth so what do I know tbh, there could very well be cognates lurking out there unbeknownst to me that would suggest instances of the suffix represent Proto-Germanic inheritances instead of Gothic productivity. I can't really conclude anything for sure with my current knowledge. — Kleio (t · c) 17:16, 27 July 2017 (UTC)



Mag ik vragen waar u precies geschiedenis studeert of studeerde? 2001:1C02:1907:9500:E104:E13C:3281:308 16:32, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Ja hoor, dat mag. Ik studeer aan de UvA. Vanwaar de interesse? — Kleio (t · c) 15:06, 5 August 2017 (UTC)


Thank you for doing these. If you are feeling particularly generous, would you feel like working on Category:English words suffixed with -er as well? —Rua (mew) 21:10, 9 October 2017 (UTC)

Well, I definitely won't do a whole lot more today (can do about 10min more worth right now..), but at least the Dutch one I'll be finishing up one of these days. The English one's more daunting, but might do some. — Kleio (t · c) 21:13, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
I think that the current set of subcategories for English doesn't cover all use cases yet. You can just leave any cases that aren't immediately obvious. —Rua (mew) 21:16, 9 October 2017 (UTC)
There are some unclear cases where it's not certain if the noun's actually derived from a verb, and some cases where it's from a noun and I'm not certain if we aren't looking at the other noun-forming etymology of -er (from *warjaz), e.g. tennisser (tennis + er / tennissen + er?), the noted schipper, etc. -- leaving the more uncertain cases in the parent category for now. — Kleio (t · c) 19:00, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
Also currently there are a lot of words in the -er categories that could as well go in the -der category.. not sure what to do with that situation. — Kleio (t · c) 19:07, 10 October 2017 (UTC)
*warjaz is very clearly for inhabitants of a place, so it only applies to words that are clearly associated with a place. For the rest, I think they are all descendants of *-ārijaz. The original Latin -ārius was already used to attach to nouns, and this use clearly carried into Germanic as 4 of the 8 nouns in Category:Gothic words suffixed with -𐌰𐍂𐌴𐌹𐍃 are noun derivatives. I added a second sense to -er yesterday, I'm not sure if you noticed it. It should probably have its own category and sense id, but I can't think of anything at the moment. For now, I suggest keeping the agent noun category for verb derivatives only.
As for -der, this isn't a separate suffix but rather just an allomorph of the normal -er. Consider Category:Latin words prefixed with in-, which also contains various allomorphs of the prefix in-. —Rua (mew) 21:57, 10 October 2017 (UTC)


I found that says it is from Thal + Middle High German man. There is also SurnameDB if it helps (for the English Thalmann) Anglish4699 (talk) 20:36, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, Thalmann is clearly just Thal + Mann. Thälmann however has an umlaut, which confuses me. — Kleio (t · c) 20:37, 23 November 2017 (UTC)


Have you considered becoming an admin? Would you like to be nominated? Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 11:36, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Not really at the moment (but thanks for the confidence!). Perhaps next year at some point I could start considering something like that, but currently I'm just really busy with IRL stuff and I'm honestly not sure I'd be very useful as an admin. — Mnemosientje (t · c) 19:23, 11 December 2017 (UTC)


Hoping your'll forgive an off-topic note. The new name is kind of brilliant. Isomorphyc (talk) 14:51, 11 December 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! It's intended as a blend of Mnemosyne + appelsientje, but I'm not sure how many people will pick up on that :p — Mnemosientje (t · c) 19:23, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
I imagined the diminutive was a roundabout way to refer to the daughter Κλειώ, but your version is much cuter and lighter. Tot sientjes! Isomorphyc (talk) 21:18, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
Oh lol hadn't even considered it could work that way as well, but I like it! — Mnemosientje (t · c) 21:23, 11 December 2017 (UTC)
To confirm that your pun is understood, I read it as blending Mnemosyne + Appelsientje (now that I think of it, related "goudappeltje" would also work as a reference to Greek mythology, though it offers much less basis for musing). Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 12:46, 12 December 2017 (UTC)