User talk:Dan Polansky

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Removing off-topic images

In diff, I removed an image of George Orwell from newspeak entry. The image does not help show what newspeak is at the slightest. Not any marginally related image should be used. Similarly, Pythagorean theorem should not have an image of Pythagoras, but it can have File:Pythagoras-proof-anim.svg. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:54, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Support --Daniel Carrero (talk) 14:13, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

• In diff, I removed an image of theologian Saint Jerome from avoid like the plague entry. The rationale is similar to the one above: the image adds nothing to understanding the phrase, and is only marginally relevant. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:27, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

  A couple of days ago I was thinking about removing the image from another WOTD page, down but not out. The entry presents idiomatic meaning of the phrase, while the picture shows somebody who seems literally down AND out. What do you think about it? --Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:51, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

  Thank you. In diff, I removed the image from down but not out. However, having done that, I think it is more of a borderline case since at least, the image does show someone who s down but not out. Still, I would argue that the "not out" is not obvious from the image, and that the image, instead of adding clarity, itself needs clarifying. In any case, I find the caption of the image very bad, far removed from the objective of serving the uses cases of a dictionary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:59, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Support. It might be more useful to engage in actual dialogue with @Sgconlaw about this. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 21:57, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Yes, better than doing it behind his back. DP has a "thing" about this subject, I notice. DonnanZ (talk) 22:10, 23 February 2018 (UTC)

Frankly, I do not see what the big problem is, particularly if the image is of someone or something which is linked to the origin of the entry such as St. Jerome or Pythagoras. I also think that readers may be interested in knowing more about an image rather than less. What is the point of, say, having a photograph of a lake with the caption "A lake", rather than something like "Lake Superior is the largest of the Great Lakes in North America"? We all learn something more from a caption along the latter lines than the former. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:45, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I am irritated to see irrelevant clutter. I am irritated to see an image that is only marginally relevant, an image for an image, as it were, one that gives the impression that it enables someone to check a checkbox in some checklist or something.

I expect images to inform me about the referent or give a better idea of meaning. The point is in the image, not in its caption. Readers should not be informed about images; rather, images should inform the readers about the words. Images are not the thing described in the dictionary; they are the description, or in their case, depiction. The things described are the lexicographic entities, such as word meanings.

The following image caption that was in avoid like the plague irritates me:

"Sv. Hieronim (Saint Jerome, 1725–1735) by Giuseppe Antonio Petrini, from the collection of the National Gallery of Slovenia in Ljubljana, Slovenia. The term avoid like the plague is believed to originate from similar phrases in Latin used by Jerome in his letters."

I don't care about Giuseppe Antonio Petrin or National Gallery of Slovenia; that has nothing to do with the word or phrase. I find the links to 1) Giuseppe Antonio Petrini and 2) National Gallery of Slovenia to Wikipedia entirely inappropriate and a distraction. It looks like some kind of association game: let's make a chain of associations between entities where we quickly veer off to what is a tangent at best. Let's start with any physical object (a chair, a mountain, an apple), and let's show a painting showing that object. That now enables us to talk about things that have nothing to do with the object, like the author of the painting or the photograph showing the object, and the place in which the painting or photograph is shown. We end up with captions that, regardless of the kind of the physical object, talk of things that have nothing to do with the physical object per se but rather are attributes of its representation. I made a mention of captions in March 2017 at User_talk:Sgconlaw#Long_image_captions.

If the reader is interested to know more about the image, in a dictionary, they are in the wrong place since the dictionary informs about words, not images. The reader can learn more about the image by clicking on the image and navigating to Commons, a project hosting images as its core objects, in which detailed information about the image can naturally be hosted. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:38, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I agree with Dan Polansky. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 09:42, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I sympathise with SGConlaw. He puts a lot of effort into WOTD, and finding an appropriate image for any entry can be quite a challenge, let alone for avoid like the plague, bearing in mind that we are limited to what is available on Wikimedia Commons. Images tend to make an entry more interesting. DonnanZ (talk) 10:57, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. — SGconlaw (talk) 02:55, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, for many kinds of entries, finding an appropriate image is a challenge, or is impossible. We should not aim at having at least one image in every entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:03, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Support Relevant images are very helpful and a way to set us apart from traditional print. Irrelevant ones are clutter. Equinox ◑ 23:43, 25 February 2018 (UTC)

Conditional Support. It seems a lot of the entries with only marginally relevant images are WOTD entries. WOTD itself arguably has marginal relevance to the actual project, as do these images. So, I wonder if one of two things can happen:

1. The image in question would only stay up on the day that the entry was WOTD.
2. Perhaps the image can show up in the WOTD form itself on the main page.

I do still find these images entertaining, but it is indeed true that entertainment is not the overall purpose of a dictionary. I guess usefulness is priority 1, while entertainment is priority 2. So, being priority 2, the images should only stay under conditions similar to those mentioned above IMO if at all. PseudoSkull (talk) 02:17, 26 February 2018 (UTC)

• Removed image from baksheesh: diff. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:52, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
• Homeric: diff. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:58, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
• sprachbund: diff. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:47, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
• kakistocracy: diff. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 19:02, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
• bahuvrihi: diff. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I wonder what you would think of the relevance of the image at 𐤉𐤓𐤅𐤔𐤋𐤉𐤌. It is not an illustration of the meaning, but of an attestation. I personally think this is a good use of images. --WikiTiki89 19:54, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

@WikiTiki: I think it's fine. It's lexicographical. It's like an attestinq quotation, just that instead of encoded text (ASCII or Unicode), you have an image. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:50, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

I agree. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:16, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

That kind of thing does seem to make more sense for ancient languages though (where cites in "normal text" might be harder to find). Equinox ◑ 18:19, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

Excessive image captions

barbeau

I touched on the subject of excessive image captions in #Removing off-topic images, where it did not really belong. Put briefly, readers should not be provided information about images; rather, the images should provide information about word referents. If the reader is interested to know more about the image, in a dictionary, they are in the wrong place, and should click on the image to go to Commons instead.

barbeau shows my idea of a fine caption. It says "barbeau". The caption could also be empty, but it looks a bit odd since there is an empty space intended for the caption. Still, the empty caption could just need some getting used to, and could be fine as well. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:40, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Duden:Mops[1] has an image with no caption. What's not to like. Maybe a little frame would make it look neater. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:24, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

With barbeau there's little more to add. In other cases I think it is helpful to give some explanation. I won't point out any examples for fear of tampering. DonnanZ (talk) 11:30, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

Clicking on an image to find more info doesn't always help. Sometimes an image can be used to illustrate more than one word, if both subjects appear in the same image. DonnanZ (talk) 11:49, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

That's an argument to use a caption that disambiguates when that is required, not an argument to have a caption that gives you the author and the gallery of a painting showing the referent. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:54, 24 February 2018 (UTC)

I added now a third image of barbeau without any caption, and also without any space intended for a caption. Does it look good? --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:30, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. That looks excellent, especially since the image has a white background. It may look a little worse for someone who tweaks their CSS to have a dark background. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:38, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

You're welcome. FWIW, I support adding frameless images like that 3rd barbeau in entries when applicable. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:49, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

There is now Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2018/April#Image captions and descriptions of the representing objects such as paintings. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:53, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Gloss

Hi, just to explain my attitude to the gloss template. Compare e. g. the Czech entry on Ceres without and with the template:

1. (Roman mythology, feminine) Ceres (Roman goddess of agriculture; equivalent to the Greek goddess Demeter.)

Here you can see that the most important thing, the link to the English entry, is drowned between two pairs of brackets. In my opinion the following solution looks better:

1. (Roman mythology, feminine) Ceres, Roman goddess of agriculture; equivalent to the Greek goddess Demeter.

I do not think it is confusing or less comprehensive to the reader. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 09:25, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

The current conventional format in Czech entries is easier for the eye to scan, IMHO:

1. (Roman mythology, feminine) Ceres (Roman goddess of agriculture; equivalent to the Greek goddess Demeter)

It typographically separates the line into two parts: 1) a list of candidate translations, 2) a disambiguating gloss. I find it preferrable, but it is probably a matter of taste. The gloss does not contain links. The format invites the reader to click on "Ceres" and nowhere else, which I find to be a benefit; it is in Ceres where the most relevant other information can be found, including other senses that can confound the reader of a translation that uses "Ceres".

It is questionable whether "(Roman mythology, feminine)" should be there at all, but that is a slightly different discussion. There should ideally be no links in "(Roman mythology, feminine)", but someone changed it a long time ago without a discussion AFAIK, and I do not have the energy to fight it.

That said, by my lights, you have the right to use the format that you prefer, in the new entries that you create.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 09:35, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Lojban

Lojban is a constructed language whose development began in 1987 and the first "baseline" was completed in 1997, per WP. Its iso code is jbo. It has peculiar parts of speech: brivla, cmavo, gismu, lujvo, and rafsi, reflected in Wiktionary categories such as Category:Lojban brivla. There is Wiktionary:About Lojban. Current WT:CFI requires 3 independent quotations in use for attestation since Lojban is listed in Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion/Well documented languages. Category:Lojban lemmas has 2,185 entries. Wikipedia written in Lojban has 1,207 articles.

Votes:

• Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-12/Banning Lojban entries
• Wiktionary:Votes/2018-02/Moving Lojban entries to the Appendix - has well-crafted rationale

Some links:

• What Is Lojban?, edited by Nick Nicholas and John Cowan, 2003, lojban.org
• W:Lojban

--Dan Polansky (talk) 11:02, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Copyright and lexicographical data

Meta:Wikilegal/Lexicographical Data, created on 17. 2. 2018, is a pretty interesting write-up on the subject. In particular, "There can be a copyright on the definitions of words as long as they are creative", but also, "Most lexicographical data is factual in nature and, therefore, cannot be copyrighted as a standalone work." --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:05, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Inclusion of theorems

Tauberian theorem is now at WT:RFDE, which will be archived at Talk:Tauberian theorem.

We have Pythagorean theorem. Pythagorean theorem is not a sum of parts; you cannot know which theorem it is just from "Pythagorean" and "theorem". Pythagorean theorem is in Merriam-Webster[2], AHD[3] and oxforddictionaries.com[4].

Category:English eponyms contains many similar items of the form (person-name-adj) (class name), including Abelian algebra.

A counterargument could be like this: You cannot know what food items are part of "Chinese cuisine" just from "Chinese" and "cuisine", and therefore, following an argument similar in form, you would have to include Chinese cuisine. My response would be that "Pythagorean theorem" is a result of naming or christening whereas "Chinese cuisine" is not.

A related discussion is at Talk:Pauli exclusion principle, where I posted "Other entries for laws, principles, conjectures and theorems: Bragg's law, Kepler's laws, Metcalfe's law [...]".

--Dan Polansky (talk) 19:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Czech syllable counter

Here is my Czech syllable counter that I use for rhyme pages. It is a heuristic, and it sometimes determines the wrong number of syllables. I feel it is better than nothing; doing it manually would be horribly slow. It is written in Excel VBA. Feel free to reuse; all talk page content is obviously licensed by the same license as mainspace: CC-BY-SA.

Private Function SyllableCount(vString As String)
  Set ForeignKeySheet = Sheets("SyllableCount")
  Set FoundCell = ForeignKeySheet.Columns(1).Find(vString, LookAt:=xlWhole)
  If Not FoundCell Is Nothing Then
    SyllableCount = FoundCell.Offset(0, 1)
    Exit Function
  End If
  SyllableCount = NumberOfVowels(vString)
End Function

Private Function NumberOfVowels(vString As String)

  Dim LCaseString As String
  Dim Char As String
  Dim CharBefore As String
  Dim CharAfter As String
  
  'Determine the first approximation by counting a, e, i, o, etc.,
  'and by counting r or l between two consonants
  Result = 0
  LCaseString = LCase(vString)
  For Idx = 1 To Len(LCaseString)
    Char = Mid(LCaseString, Idx, 1)
    If IsVowel(Char) Then
      Result = Result + 1
    ElseIf Idx > 1 And Idx < Len(LCaseString) And _
      (Char = "r" Or Char = "l") Then
      If Not IsVowel(Mid(LCaseString, Idx - 1, 1)) And _
         Not IsVowel(Mid(LCaseString, Idx + 1, 1)) Then
        'r or l between two consonants, as in tržnice or mlžit
        Result = Result + 1
      End If
    End If
  Next
  ' Adjust the number by diphthongs (au, eu, ou): treat sometimes as one vowel.
  ' Ou
  OuPosition = InStr(LCaseString, "ou")
  If OuPosition = 1 Or OuPosition = (Len(LCaseString) - 1) Then
    Result = Result - 1 'Treat ou as one syllable; assume only one "ou" occurence, which is wrong
    ' dlouhou - counterexample to one "ou"
  ElseIf OuPosition > 0 Then
    CharBefore = Mid(LCaseString, OuPosition - 1, 1)
    CharAfter = Mid(LCaseString, OuPosition + 2, 1)
    If CharBefore = "d" And _
       CharAfter = "č" Then
      'Leave the result alone; example: doučit
    ElseIf CharBefore = "p" And _
       (CharAfter = "č" Or CharAfter = "ž" Or CharAfter = "k" Or _
        Mid(LCaseString, OuPosition + 2, 2) = "sm") Then
      'Leave the result alone; examples: poučit, použít, poukaz, pousmát (vs poustevník)
    Else
      Result = Result - 1
    End If
  End If
  'Au
  AuPosition = InStr(LCaseString, "au")
  If AuPosition = 1 Or AuPosition = (Len(LCaseString) - 1) Then
    Result = Result - 1 'Treat au as one syllable; assume only one "au" occurence, which is wrong
  ElseIf AuPosition > 0 Then
    CharBefore = Mid(LCaseString, AuPosition - 1, 1)
    CharAfter = Mid(LCaseString, AuPosition + 2, 1)
    If CharBefore = "n" And _
       (CharAfter = "č" Or CharAfter = "k") Then
      'Leave the result alone; examples: naučit, nauka
    ElseIf CharBefore = "z" And _
       (CharAfter = "č" Or CharAfter = "v") Then
      'Leave the result alone; examples: zaučit, zaučovat, zauvažovat
      'Reason for char after constraint: zautomatizovat
    Else
      Result = Result - 1
    End If
  End If
  'Eu
  'No adjustment. E.g. pneumatika seems to have 4 syllables, and neuróza 4 syllables.
  NumberOfVowels = Result 'Return
End Function

Private Function IsVowel(vString As String) As Boolean
  char = vString
  If char = "a" Or char = "e" Or char = "i" Or _
     char = "o" Or char = "u" Or char = "y" Or _
     char = "á" Or char = "é" Or char = "ě" Or _
     char = "í" Or char = "ó" Or char = "ú" Or _
     char = "ů" Or char = "ý" Then
    IsVowel = True
  Else
    IsVowel = False
  End If
End Function

--Dan Polansky (talk) 17:21, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

As is apparent from the above code, what causes trouble are the diphthongs (au, eu, ou). The number of syllables is the number of vowels or things that act as vowels. Things acting as vowels include certain occurrences of r and l; that seems to be handled well. Disphthongs also act as vowels, but only when they are really diphthongs. Like, we have nauka vs. mouka; nauka is na-uka, 3 syllables, while mouka has 2 syllables. For diphthongs, the script has to resort to unreliable heuristics. Words containing merely apparent diphthongs include doučit (vs. doufat, doutnat, doupě, doušek), nauka, naučit (vs. Nautilus), poučit, poupravit, použít, poukaz, poukázat, pousmát (vs. pouhý, poupě, pouze), zaučit, zaučovat, zauvažovat. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:28, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Code updated, especially for treatment of au after z. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:26, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Happy Easter

I wish to you and all users of Wiktionary Happy Easter.

Leonard Joseph Raymond (talk) 20:49, 1 April 2018 (UTC)

Outstanding policy issues

Some outstanding policy issues:

• Promote Inflection heading and deprecate Declension and Conjugation heading; support very uncertain.
• Synonym content to Thesaurus: Find out whether people want to move as much content as possible away from mainspace to Thesaurus.
• Entry name conventions for non-English Thesaurus entries: find agreement.
• Add section on Images to CFI, at first only stating what we already do and what is uncontroversial.
• Find out whether we could unify capitalization of English definitions on lowercase without final period or on capitalized first letter and final period. Lowercase without final period is online in M-W, Collins, and Macmillan. Uppercase with final period is online in Webster 1913, AHD, and oxforddictionaries.com. Seems very arbitary, a matter of taste.
• Allow Noun phrase and Verb phrase part-of-speech headings for highly inflected languages; support very uncertain; desirability also uncertain. Rationale: In highly inflected languages, part of speech is not only about the syntactic role of a term in a sentence but also about its inflection, and a noun phrase does not inflect like a noun.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 16:06, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

sound post

Hello, do you think you could please add 'sound post' as a meaning of 'duše' if you do agree that it's correct. I would really appreciate it. Thanks! Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 18:09, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

I could, but I have no source telling me "sound post" can be translated as "duše", or that "duše" sometimes means as much. What is your source? --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:12, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

I found it in SSJC, sense 6, and so I expanded duše entry. I hope they did their attestation homework. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:16, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Oh, I'm sorry, I thought you would know it but it's true that these words are a bit specialised. I don't have any source at all except the page 'sound post' here. If you feel it's potentially inaccurate then I will remove it; I can check with a Czech musician or violin maker. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 18:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

No, it's fine. The meaning is in SSJC[5]. They could have made a mistake, of course, but that would be a rare event. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:23, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Thank you. :D Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 18:28, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

older sister

I somewhat agree with this edit; the wording of {{&lit}} is confusing when there's only one definition. However, defining "older sister" by "A sibling's older sister" seems circular to me. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:59, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I think my version "(translation hub) A sibling's older sister" is perfect (no longer there). The only thing missing is a link from "translation hub" to a glossary where the idea of translation hubs is explained, probably Appendix:Glossary. The definition is either circular or trivial, sure, but that is what you expect from a translation hub. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:53, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

Czech related terms derived from Latin

What follows is a design for section Related terms for Czech words derived from Latin:

• Let us identify related term (RT) rings. Let these be grouped by a base Latin word having no apparent prefix, e.g. codex.
• Let a RT ring include terms differing in suffix but also terms differing in prefix. Thus, for kód, let us include not only kodex in the RT ring but also dekódovat and zakódovat.
• Let a RT ring also contain terms originating as compounds. Thus, let the ring for reálný contain republika = res + public. As a consequence, RT rings may overlap: a term can be member of two RT rings.
• For each RT ring, let us pick a short Czech term to host the ring, a term that is a member of that ring. Let us place the RT ring into that word's entry. Picking the host may turn challenging in some cases, but let us see. Let the choice of the term be guided by the number of syllables, then number of letters, but let an override be granted.
• Let other members of the ring point to the host via "===Related terms===(par)* See (host)". This eliminates duplication.

I created reálný and kód as central hosts of RT rings. For reálný, I originally considered reál for its being shorter. However, reál has two etymologies, which makes it a little less suitable as the central host.

The above is described for descendants from Latin, but works for those from Ancient Greek as well.

An alternative would be to create categories, like "Czech terms descended from Latin codex". Then, each member of the ring could have RT display populated from the category. On the downside, this would require that all ring members have entries already created.

Appendix:English words by Latin antecedents will be useful for RT ring identification.

For English, it would work similarly. For example, we start with Latin ambulo. We identify the RT ring, which would be, perhaps incomplete, amble, ambulance, ambulant, ambulate, ambulator, ambulatory, funambulist, perambulate, perambulation, perambulator, preamble, somnambulist, somnambulate, and somnambulistic. We note that amble is the word with the smallest number of syllables, and pick it to host the RT ring. We place the RT ring to amble and let other members of the ring point to amble.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 09:37, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Using the above design, I created RT rings for akt (ago), verš (verto), dynamo (δύναμαι), takt (tango), mód (modus), lekce (lego), pres (premo), sex (sexus) and póza (pono). When creating póza, I discovered fr:poser has a similar RT ring, in its Apparentés étymologiques: apposer, apposition, déposer, déposition, exposer, exposition, imposer, imposition, impôt, pose, posé, posément, poseur, position, repos, reposer, supposer, supposition. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:30, 24 April 2018 (UTC)

I created mise (mitto) even though mše has fewer syllables. mise seems to better fit to komise, demise, etc. in its outward appearance and two syllables are not too many; mise has no prefix. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:17, 25 April 2018 (UTC)

I usually go back to Latin or Ancient Greek base words and stop there. But one can go deeper, to PIE, obtaining a category like Category:English terms derived from the PIE root *steh₂-, which contains both state (from La sto) and static (from ἵστημι). When we would go deeper, we would get Latin, Ancient Greek and Slavic roots (terms that gave birth to descendants) united under one umbrella, it seems; Czech verb stát would end up in the same group as Czech statický. This might lead to too large RT rings, but I don't know. The rings would disregard AGr vs. La vs. Sl origin. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:34, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

For Latin iacio, I chose objekt as the host of the RT ring. I don't like it since it contains a prefix, but I found no better candidate; there is no *jekt or *jekce in Czech, from what I found. In the RT ring, objekt has two syllables, and among those that have two syllables, it is first in alphabet. At the end of the day, it would be acceptable, while not nice, if the host were be chosen wholly arbitrarily; the basic job of hosting a RT ring so that other entries can point to it can be done by any entry. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:23, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

For Latin sisto, I chose existence. It was rather arbitary; I felt existence is more important than asistence. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:42, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

For Latin volvo, I could have chosen volt or volta, both shorter than voluta, which I ultimately chose. All three are prefixless, so far so good. What speaks for voluta is the "volu" part, present in multiple members of the ring: devoluce, evoluce, involuce, revoluce, etc. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:51, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

For Latin caput, kápo is shorter than kapitán and kapitál is earlier in alphabet. And yet, I chose kapitán; kápo has a meaning relating to nasty things, and kapitán seems in a better general esteem than kapitál. As for morphology, both kapitán and kapitál contain kapit-, common to multiple members of the ring. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:50, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

For Latin fero, I included the relace set as part of the RT ring in oferta. This was based on the notion that relatus is from refero. But some sources say that relatus is used as a past participle of refero, which could mean that, morphologically speaking, it is not really stemming from it. If so, relace would be the base of a separate RT ring. I am leaving the oferta ring for fero as is, including relace, relativní, etc., but the question may be revisited later. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:52, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Appearance of Ancient Greek reference templates

I see the following appearance in δύναμαι, except that I do not show hyperlinks:

• δύναμαι in Liddell & Scott (1940) A Greek–English Lexicon, Oxford: Clarendon Press
• δύναμαι in Liddell & Scott (1889) An Intermediate Greek–English Lexicon, New York: Harper & Brothers
• δύναμαι in Autenrieth, Georg (1891) A Homeric Dictionary for Schools and Colleges, New York: Harper and Brothers
• δύναμαι in Bailly, Anatole (1935) Le Grand Bailly: Dictionnaire grec-français, Paris: Hachette
• δύναμαι in Cunliffe, Richard J. (1924) A Lexicon of the Homeric Dialect: Expanded Edition, Norman: University of Oklahoma Press, published 1963
• δύναμαι in the Diccionario Griego–Español en línea (2006–2018)
• δύναμαι in Slater, William J. (1969) Lexicon to Pindar, Berlin: Walter de Gruyter
• G1410 in Strong’s Exhaustive Concordance to the Bible

Related: User talk:Dan Polansky/2017#External link templates and excessive detail.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 08:22, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I removed copyright sign from Diccionario Griego–Español en línea: we don't do that in general, and that is not a usual referencing practice. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:35, 28 April 2018 (UTC)

I see the following appearance of English reference templates in climate, except that I do not show hyperlinks:

• climate in Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam, 1913
• climate in The Century Dictionary, The Century Co., New York, 1911
• climate at OneLook Dictionary Search

--Dan Polansky (talk) 13:18, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

I see the following appearance of Latin reference templates in emo, except that I do not show hyperlinks:

• emo in Charlton T. Lewis and Charles Short (1879) A Latin Dictionary, Oxford: Clarendon Press
• emo in Charlton T. Lewis (1891) An Elementary Latin Dictionary, New York: Harper & Brothers
• emo in Gaffiot, Félix (1934) Dictionnaire Illustré Latin-Français, Hachette
• Carl Meissner; Henry William Auden (1894) Latin Phrase-Book‎[1], London: Macmillan and Co.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 13:20, 6 May 2018 (UTC)

Above we can see multiple reference templates that show a non-English title with no English rendering: Bailly 1935, Diccionario Griego–Español en línea, and Dictionnaire Illustré Latin-Français. I think it is fine for the languages involved, which are Romance languages; it could be less nice for e.g. Russian. Since a lot of English vocabulary stemms from Latin, the meanings of the titles from Romance languages are fairly easy to guess for a native English speaker. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:15, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Another case of no English title is this:

• labor in Ramminger, Johann (accessed 16 July 2016) Neulateinische Wortliste: Ein Wörterbuch des Lateinischen von Petrarca bis 1700‎[2], pre-publication website, 2005-2016

It is fine with me (except for the "accessed" thing) since I know German; for me, even romanized Russian is fine. I admit that it is not so user friendly to those who speak no German. A link to an appendix providing detail would handle the need. Adding an English rendering for the mainspace would make it rather long. Anyway, here's rendering of that title by Google Translate: "Neo-Latin word list: A dictionary of Latin from Petrarca to 1700". Not too shabby; Neo-Latin is New Latin, of course. --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:25, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

I see the following appearance of English reference templates in abridgement, except that I do not show hyperlinks:

• abridgment in Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary, G. & C. Merriam, 1913
• abridgment in The Century Dictionary, The Century Co., New York, 1911
• abridgment at OneLook Dictionary Search

--Dan Polansky (talk) 18:16, 8 May 2018 (UTC)

Attributive nouns

My position is that attributive positions are adjectival positions. An English item is attested as a noun if it is attested (1) in the subject position, or (2) with an indefinite article, or (3) in plural; there may be more clear tests. lumbar is an example of an adjective that seems attested predominantly or only in attributive position and is non-comparable. It seems to follow that the position or doctrine that a non-comparable item only attested in an attributive position is not shown to be an adjective is untenable. There is no ultimate adjectivity test for English, as far as I know; there are only partial tests that decide some cases one way or another, like: if it is comparable, it is an adjective.

M-W regards attributive nouns as nouns: Nouns That Look Like Adjectives, merriam-webster.com. It does admit they do some of the work adjectives do: "Attributive nouns do some of the same work that adjectives do, but that doesn't mean they're not nouns. Think of them as nouns that learned how to multitask." The source was pointed out by Per utramque cavernam; thanks.

Another M-W article is Attributive nouns in Help, merriam-webster.com. One quote is this: "While any noun may occasionally be used attributively, the label often attributive is limited to those having broad attributive use."

Another source is ATTRIBUTIVE NOUN, Concise Oxford Companion to the English Language, originally published by Oxford University Press 1998, encyclopedia.com. It says "ATTRIBUTIVE NOUN. A noun that modifies another noun: steel in steel bridge; London in London house. Nouns used in this way are sometimes said to be adjectives or to behave like adjectives".

--Dan Polansky (talk) 17:37, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

When a multi-word noun phrase is used attributively, it is often hyphenated. For hyphenated forms of nouns, e.g. geographical-area, we have {{attributive form of}}. These seem to be mostly ranked as nouns in our mainspace. The template is used not only in hyphenated form; it is used e.g. in pyjama. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:04, 1 May 2018 (UTC)

vít

Hey. Can you make an entry for vít please? It's linked from výt --Cien pies 6 (talk) 13:34, 2 May 2018 (UTC)

Not so easy. One source tells me that it means "to make a wreath", so the translation could be wreath (verb), but I am not sure. I imagine that if you have a stick and a wire, then the operation by which you turn the wire around the stick to create a coil would be "vít", but here again I am not sure enough. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:04, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

An aside: There is a test item for Czech learners, especially children, which requires them to write Víly vily věnce, given only the auditory. The hard part is the use of i vs. y. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:08, 4 May 2018 (UTC)

κλινικός

Here is a warning that I am more accustomed to giving newcomers, but apparently you need to hear it: do not create entries in languages you do not know and have not studied. —Μετάknowledge^{discuss/deeds} 17:07, 14 May 2018 (UTC)