User talk:Dan Polansky/2015

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Making simplified Chinese soft-redirect to traditional Chinese[edit]

Hi Dan. You have a vote running [1] but the outcome of it will be of no importance since it has already been implemented in many entries [2]. I will therefore suggest that you close the vote. Kinamand (talk) 07:53, 7 January 2015 (UTC)

As for Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2014-12/Making simplified Chinese soft-redirect to traditional Chinese, I have no intention to prematurely close the vote. It is possible to undo non-consensual changes made before and during the vote if the vote fails. If you support the proposal of the vote, you can vote support now to bolster the proposal. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:55, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
As for "There is no point for a vote when no Chinese-language editor opposes the proposal. The vote is a means for a bunch of utter standers-by to dictate what chores others should do." diff: I do not subscribe to the thesis that the only editors who can have a say about Chinese-language entries are those who contribute to them. And I do not see anyone in the vote "dictating" others to do something, chores or otherwise; the opposers in the vote require that status quo is not changed, and therefore that no action is taken in certain regards. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:02, 7 January 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the answer. I have now cast my vote. Kinamand (talk) 09:23, 8 January 2015 (UTC)


Sorry fot the revert (Wiktionary:Votes/2014-09/Renaming rhyme pages). I wasn't aware of it. I don't know what happened. Lmaltier (talk) 20:03, 8 January 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks for the info. When I saw it, I thought it was just an unintentional mistake, so no hard feelings. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:54, 9 January 2015 (UTC)


Do you know how to code a German noun as uncountable? I'm at sea. Purplebackpack89 21:29, 9 January 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Category:German uncountable nouns has examples, e.g. Schnee. However, I don't like how every sense in Schnee is marked uncountable on every definition line; that should not be done, IMHO, and it was not there in this revision, which had this:


# {{weather|lang=de}} [[snow]]

--Dan Polansky (talk) 09:11, 10 January 2015 (UTC)

OK. It is different for a proper noun? TBH, the German proper noun template should make ALL German proper nouns uncountable. The word I'm working on is Sezessionskrieg. It should not have a genetive or plural; I believe its gender to be male because the root word Krieg is also male. Purplebackpack89 15:55, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
For gender, you can check Duden, which I added to Sezessionskrieg. Proper nouns do have genitives. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:59, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
I guess I don't know what a genitive is. What's a genitive? Purplebackpack89 16:00, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
W:Genitive case#German. Duden shows genitive ("Genitiv"). google books:"Sezessionskrieges" and google books:"Sezessionskriegs" shows examples of use of the two possible genitives. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:09, 10 January 2015 (UTC)
I have updated the entry; I hope you all don't mind. According to the Duden and German Wiktionary, it also means any war of secession and is countable in that form. —JohnC5 (Talk | contribs) 01:28, 11 January 2015 (UTC)
Cool beans. Purplebackpack89 05:50, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

Czech iteratives or frequentatives[edit]

I have entered stávat tentatively as "iterative". User:Diligent also mentioned the term "frequentative" in connection with "iterative", on my talk page. fr:stávat says "Itératif ou duratif de stát"; en.wikt durative says "(linguistics) Of or pertaining to the aspect of a verb that expresses continuing action; continuative"; thus, continuative is another candidate term. de:stávat says "iteratives Verb".

Another use of "stávat" other than iterative ("to se stává") is the "used to" use, meaning "it did, but does not more". "stával tam dům" => it does not stand there any more. It may be that past forms of iteratives are generally used as used-to-forms when in the past form.

Some Czech sources use the Czech word iterativum:

  • "Ale ne kazdé sloveso -iti má k sobě iterativum -ívati, ..." -- Jan Gebauer, 1896
  • "Sloveso nosit jako iterativum ke slovesu nést (a dokonavému zanést) je v tomto pojetí jiné sloveso (má jiny s-glyf) nez členité sloveso nosit, ..." -- Jarmila Panevová, ‎Eva Benešová, 1971
  • "Když tedy se užívá termínu iterativum v jazycích, které de facto nemají príznaková iterativa, nevadí to tak velice jako u nás, kde tuto kategorii máme, ale termínu pro ni vhodného uzíváme pro slovesa zcela jiná, pro jisty morfologicky druh ..." -- František Kopečný, 1962

One feature of "stávat" is that both the iterative and the base form "stát" are imperfective. Iteratives can probably be also formed from perfectives, so "kupovat" is probably also an iterative, while "koupit" is perfective.

Similar cases:

  • být --> bývat
  • mít --> mívat
  • stát --> stávat
  • brát --> brávat
  • dělat --> dělávat
  • spát --> spávat
  • znát --> znávat: attested in the form "znával"
  • bydlet or bydlit --> bydlívat
  • snít --> snívat
  • koupit --> kupovat: but koupit is perfective
  • mluvit --> mluvívat

--Dan Polansky (talk) 10:35, 17 January 2015 (UTC)

An example of PSJC treatment: chodívati is entered as "ned. opět. k choditi." SSJC choditi contains "nás. chodívati, chodívávati". My guess is that these mean "nedokonavý opětovný tvar k choditi" and "násobný tvar k choditi". --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:03, 10 January 2016 (UTC)


Why did you undo my edit here? Fool can mean "jester", and the synonyms for "fool" associated with that definition are different than the ones for the definition that applies to low mental capacity. Purplebackpack89 02:12, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Each Wikisaurus page is for a sense or a synonym cluster, not for a word. The word chosen to represent the sense is an accident. The cluster for jester can be hosted on Wikisaurus:jester; it does not need to occupy the same page as Wikisaurus:fool. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:26, 19 January 2015 (UTC)

Náprava Wikislovníka[edit]


založil jsem iniciativu k nápravě českého Wikislovníka. Uvědomil jsem si, že je třeba to změnit. Správci tam nerespektují pravidla a pronásledují nepohodlné editory. To na wikiprojekt nepatří. Pokud budeš mít chuť, jsi vítán. Každá ruka dobrá.Juandev (talk) 08:34, 11 February 2015 (UTC)

Let's draft a vote for CFI translation criteria[edit]

In order to avoid the occasional misrepresentation of bizarre foreign terms that require multi-word English translations, I think we should draft a vote that would specify limitations on when arguably SOP terms should be allowed for the purpose of collecting targets for multiple foreign single-word translations. I agree with the standards you have generally suggested in discussions. bd2412 T 13:48, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

I am thinking of something like this:
A translation target is an English multi-word term that is useful for hosting translations. Some attested non-idiomatic translation targets should be included despite being non-idiomatic and some excluded, but there is no agreement on precise, all-encompassing rules for deciding which are which. Therefore, the following is tentative. A translation that is a closed compound such as German Autoschlüssel should not support inclusion of an English term as a translation target, in this case "car key". By contrast, a single-word non-compound such as German Anglistik should be considered to support inclusion of its most usually used English translation, in this case English studies. The existence of a rare English term such as Anglistics should not detract from its synonym such as English studies being included as a translation target. Diminutives should not support inclusion of an English term as a translation target. Sentence-like terms such as xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓ ("he had had in his possession a bunchberry plant") should not support a term as a translation terget. How many qualifying translations are needed to justify the inclusion of a translation target is left undecided.
I want to emphasize that I do not feel confident about drafting a rigid code. I want the discussion to be rather open, and people encouraged to think about what is inclusion-worthy and why. I was also thinking about an entirely minimalist version, but that would not meet your interest in having closed compounds explicitly discarded:
A translation target is an English multi-word term that is useful for hosting translations. Some attested non-idiomatic translation targets should be included despite being non-idiomatic and some excluded, but there is no agreement on precise, all-encompassing rules for deciding which are which.
--Dan Polansky (talk) 14:32, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
I would rather have some narrow language permitting the inclusion of arguably non-idiomatic terms as translation targets than no language at all, and routine CFI-based arguments for the exclusion of such terms. bd2412 T 18:44, 28 February 2015 (UTC)
So what is the wording that you propose? --Dan Polansky (talk) 12:39, 1 March 2015 (UTC)
I would require that there be at least two languages using space-delineated writing systems where the term exists as a single word (which would make the translation table for cross-referencing from one language to another), and that the proposed English term or phrase must itself be verifiable as being used as a common collocation independently of translations of the non-English terms. bd2412 T 03:07, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

Here is a next version, intending to address your concerns. It is rather long, but it probably has to be given it contains actual substance.

A translation target is a common English multi-word term or collocation that is useful for hosting translations. Some attested non-idiomatic translation targets should be included despite being non-idiomatic and some excluded, but there is no agreement on precise, all-encompassing rules for deciding which are which. Therefore, the following criteria for inclusion of attested non-idiomatic translation targets are tentative:

  • The attested English term has to be common; rare terms don't qualify.
  • The existence of a rare single-word English synonym of the considered English term does not disqualify the considered English term. For instance, the existence of Anglistics, which is rare, does not disqualify English studies.
  • A translation that is a closed compound does not qualify to support the English term. For instance, German Autoschlüssel does not qualify to support the English "car key".
  • A translation that consists of multiple words and is a word-for-word translation of the English term does not qualify to support the English term.
  • A translation into a language that does not use spaces to separate words does not qualify to support the English term.
  • A sentence-like translation such as xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓ ("he had had in his possession a bunchberry plant") does not qualify to support the English term.
  • A translation that is a diminutive does not qualify to support the English term.
  • At the very least, two qualifying translations must support the English term. Editor judgment can require a higher number, on a case-by-case basis.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 08:03, 14 March 2015 (UTC)

  • I don't think it's even necessary to mention the "sentence-like translation". I would instead say that a phrase or sentence that only ever appears as a translation of the term does not qualify. Or, the first term could be qualified by such a condition. bd2412 T 01:27, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
    • That's an excellent point: google books:"he had had in his possession a bunchberry plant" is probably not even attested in use as an English term (mentions can be found), let alone being common English term, and the 1st bullet already requires the English phrase to be common. So it appears that the "sentence-like translation" bullet point may be omitted without replacement, unless there is a real risk that there are common sentence-like English phrases that would be includable because of languages like Bella Coola (xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓ ). Even if and after such risk becomes tangible, voters can knock off such putative translation targets on one-off basis, because of the tentativeness built into the regulation; and if that becomes too onerous, CFI can be later amended with the bullet point or the alternative you proposed. I have inserted the word "attested" into the 1st bullet point to drive the attestation-required point home more strongly, although attestation is already mentioned before the list of bullet points. I have striken the discussed bullet point to indicate what the current draft is. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:39, 16 March 2015 (UTC)
      • I generally agree, although I would still like some language indicating that the phrase has to exist in English independent of efforts to translate the foreign phrase. For example, most instances of "Celtic studies" in English are not explaining some foreign-language term. bd2412 T 13:50, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
        • What would be an example of an English term that is attested in use, and at the same time relates to or depends on efforts to translate a foreign phrase? --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:33, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
          • Actually, I can't think of one offhand. This is really directed at the "had in his possession a bunchberry plant" thing. The only time that phrase ever comes up in English is when translating the other phrase. I imagine some things in Appendix:Terms considered difficult or impossible to translate into English might have comparable translation-only counterpart phrases. bd2412 T 19:21, 17 March 2015 (UTC)
            • In the absence of an actual example, I would keep the text as simple as possible and therefore as is. I would only add complexity based on actuals, not on hypotheticals. Again, we can still vote down one-off troubling examples after they get discovered, and we can amend the text later after the real trouble gets discovered.

              I have a general note on the prospective vote. Votes are tricky. The longer we keep on explaining why this is a good thing in RFD, the more people get exposed to that explanation, become familiar with it, and will be more likely to support the proposal. Therefore, I feel there should really be no hurry with having a vote. The vote can easily end up in no consensus for a variety of reasons, one being that votes usually last only a month while RFDs sit in RFD page longer, and that multiple people have their mind so set against translation targets that they are ready to bring forward the fallacious example of xłp̓x̣ʷłtłpłłskʷc̓. I probably won't convince you, since the point of your present effort is to have a vote and have RFD follow CFI rather than making exceptions. Nonetheless, I present the previous for your consideration.

              On one another note, we should probably carefully draft a rationale, in the same careful way in which we draft the proposal itself. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:30, 18 March 2015 (UTC)

              • I'm actually not in a terrible rush. bd2412 T 17:54, 20 March 2015 (UTC)
  • @User:BD2412: I have inserted a new item above: A translation that consists of multiple words and is a word-for-word translation of the English term does not qualify to support the English term. What do you think? --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:27, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
  • I support that. I thought there was already something to that effect in the draft, but I see there is not. At this point, I would group the "does not qualify" statements like this:
  • A translation does not qualify to support the English term if it is:
    • a closed compound or a diminutive; for instance, German Autoschlüssel does not qualify to support the English "car key", and Spanish mecedorcito does not qualify to support the English "small rocking chair";
    • a multi-word phrase that is a word-for-word translation of the English term; or
    • a phrase in a language that does not use spaces to separate words.
  • How about that? bd2412 T 13:56, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

@User:BD2412: Looks like an improvement, but I would like to keep closed compound and diminutive separate, since these really are quite different cases to me. Yeah, I also thought we had this covered, but it somehow was not there. Next draft based on the above with diminutives separated out; I have also moved the "rare single-word English synonym" item to the very bottom since the newly resulting 2nd item seems more central, and I replaced "for instance" with a colon (that should do):

A translation target is a common English multi-word term or collocation that is useful for hosting translations. Some attested non-idiomatic translation targets should be included despite being non-idiomatic and some excluded, but there is no agreement on precise, all-encompassing rules for deciding which are which. Therefore, the following criteria for inclusion of attested non-idiomatic translation targets are tentative:

  • The attested English term has to be common; rare terms don't qualify.
  • A translation does not qualify to support the English term if it is:
    • a closed compound: German Autoschlüssel does not qualify to support the English "car key"; or
    • a diminutive: Spanish mecedorcito does not qualify to support the English "small rocking chair"; or
    • a multi-word phrase that is a word-for-word translation of the English term; or
    • a phrase in a language that does not use spaces to separate words.
  • At the very least, two qualifying translations must support the English term. Editor judgment can require a higher number, on a case-by-case basis.
  • The existence of a rare single-word English synonym of the considered English term does not disqualify the considered English term: the existence of Anglistics, which is rare, does not disqualify English studies.

Any comments? --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:54, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I would remove the first "non-idiomatic" from "Some attested non-idiomatic translation targets should be included despite being non-idiomatic"; otherwise, I think that it is very good as it is. bd2412 T 15:32, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Sure, removed by striking it out. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:40, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
What's the point? CFI isn't binding anyway. It's optional. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:47, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

@User:BD2412: What about a rationale, to be posted on the talk page of the vote? Here is a draft:


Translation target entries have the following benefits, shown on the examples of German and Czech but pertaining to non-English languages in general:

  • Make English-to-German translation convenient: if you want to know how to translate English studies to German, it is most convenient to go to an ordinary entry and find your translation where you expect it to be. It is much less convenient to have to use the search function for "English studies"[3], which finds the following list of items as per the search result page: English studies, Anglicist, studies, anglistika, Anglistik, haplography, English, англистика, Holodomor, anglistica, computative, omnisexual, ...
  • Enable Czech-to-German traversal via the English hub or the middleman: anglistikaEnglish studiesAnglistik; ditto for any two non-English languages. This naturally works for kočkacatKatze.
  • Answer the following question via a page with a familiar format: what are all single-word translations into various languages of the term "English studies"?

As for the choice of languages above, that can change; Czech is a minor language, and it could be of value to use Spanish instead, for its widespread use in the U.S. -Dan Polansky (talk) 15:51, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

I would think that the rationale would be to make translation convenient for any English phrase that tends to be a single word in other languages, no matter what those languages are. bd2412 T 16:34, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
@User:BD2412: That's correct, but we have to show some examples. I am not explicit about these being mere examples, also examples of languages, but we still need to show and exemplify, not merely describe. I made an insertion at the beginning ("shown on the examples of German and Czech ..."); does it help a bit? --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:41, 6 April 2015 (UTC)
Yes - before it looked like the rationale was focused on specific languages. This makes it clear that these are only examples. bd2412 T 17:56, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Hlasování na cs[edit]

Upozorňuji na hlasování na cs.Juandev (talk) 19:59, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Thank you for the notification, requested by me. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:32, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

Your reverts of sophy[edit]

Please read what I actually did (diff) that you reverted. In my opinion, you only looked at the sophy page.

  • The revert with your summary "keep only one reference section or else the page becomes even more untidy or harder to overview" is not inline with the WT:MOS and, more importantly, you replaced my corrected live links to the OED entries with the previously broken links. Why? How can your broken links be better than my live links...
  • The revert with your summary "Restore 17 December 2014‎: the removal of quotations was unjustified since it left some senses without quotations" did not take into account any of changes done in the entry Sophy.
I changed Etymology 2 to an alternate of Sophy, which is the lemma (that had its own OED entry referenced on the sophy page) and listed Soffi, Sofi, Sophi, Sophie as alternate forms on that page. I moved the shared content to that page, i.e. Sophy, which is well referenced and cited on a citation page.
  • You stripped {{senseid}}s for no apparent reason – I added them for a reason.
  • You reverted the pronuciation in Etymology 2 which I removed – as it is an alternate capitalization of Sophy
  • You reverted the definition I wrote for Etymology 2 – do you really think that:
Alternative spelling of Sophy (in the senses of “a Persian monarch” and “a personage”).
is a better and more accurate definition than:
Alternative letter-case form of Sophy (title of a Safavid dynasty shah):
which I changed it to?

BoBoMisiu (talk) 19:12, 28 March 2015 (UTC)

Multiple of your edits in sophy may need to be reinstated, including addition of sense id and correction of the references, and also some others. Above all, quotations that use capitalization "sophy" should stay at sophy and not be moved to another page; they attest the use of lowercase. As for placement of references, again, the page is hard to overlook already as is; you are right that WT:ELE seems to stipulate placement of external links and references as you made it but it is not the most common practice AFAIK, and it is a poor practice, IMHO. One problem is that your edits looks suspect; in diff, the edit summary is "Nested updated OED online references" but the edit also changed Etymology 5. Or diff says "added senseids to link from Middle English sophie; moved some quotes to citations page" but does more, including changing "alternative spelling of" definition. Reviewing these sorts of edits is hard. It is easier to revert and then see what can be salvaged, even if the revert goes overboard.
What I now see at Sophy having been added by you (this revision, I did not revert it) makes me rather uneasy, especially the long list of references immediately below the etymology in Etymology 2. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:44, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
  1. " [] your edits in sophy may need to be reinstated, [] "
    —They should be, I will manually revert all your reverts on that page.
  2. " [] quotations that use capitalization "sophy" should stay at sophy and not be moved to another page; they attest the use of lowercase."
    —So, in other words, all that I forgot to place in sophy was {{seeCites}}Citations:sophy, where I moved some of the lower case quotes, which BTW were nicked along with all the quotes from OED in the first place.
  3. "As for placement of references, [] IMHO.
    —I agree with you, I think the references for etymologies should be collapsed beneath the etymology even if there is only a single reference. But, standards in place do not describe using a collapsable wrapper.
  4. One problem is that your edits looks suspect; []
    —But you never checked or contacted me to defend my actions. My summaries seemed acceptable to me.
  5. "Reviewing [] is hard. It is easier to revert and then see what can be salvaged, [] "
    —You didn't know what the contribution was. That type of revert is realistically going to chase new contributors away from wiktionary, yours is not the first time that happened to me although I had taken the time to read and understand the documentation. I have a gut feeling it's a system wide problem. Other new editors will, seeing a revert that replaces their updated live links with dead links, will certainly mumble WTF. A post on my user talk page would clarify all of your confusion with little effort on your part.
  6. "What I now see at Sophy having been added by you [] makes me rather uneasy, especially the long list of references [] "
    —Why do references make you "rather uneasy"? They provide attestation, they are not about usage. My very first contribution was reverted because an administrator also did not like the way I document what I did, I am experienced enough to see that it was also more about how my edit looked rather than about the content, in other words, conflating the style with the content, although I followed the available documentation. Lack of references make me feel uneasy because I have no way to verify what is correct but may look questionable to me, after all, not knowing about something would be the reason for looking up an entry.
BoBoMisiu (talk) 22:45, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
Your placement of References section in Sophy is uncustumary (important); it does not meet WT:ELE either (less important). --Dan Polansky (talk) 23:26, 28 March 2015 (UTC)
"Etymologies should be referenced if possible, ideally by footnotes within the “Etymology” section" Wiktionary:Etymology#ReferencesBoBoMisiu (talk) 00:13, 29 March 2015 (UTC), modified 03:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
See apology on User talk:BoBoMisiu for placing references in etymology section. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 03:47, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
I think you have misunderstood Wiktionary:Etymology#References; the footnotes technique that the section mentioned before I removed the section is one of <ref></ref> and <references/>, where <ref></ref> is placed directly after the sourced etymological statement while the references themselves are placed at the end of the entry; see e.g. klokan#Czech. Nonetheless, I removed the section References from Wiktionary:Etymology to prevent further misunderstanding. While referencing etymologies is not wrong, it is not very customary in the English Wiktionary and is not necessary IMHO, especially if the edit that changes etymology indicates the sources on which the change is based in the edit summary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:15, 29 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I did misunderstand. I thought it was odd to do that way. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 00:34, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Your reverts of Nosema[edit]

You wrote in the edit summary, "remove references from the definition: we do not reference definitions, instead seeking attestation of actual use per WT:ATTEST". Please note that these are taxonomic categories, it is inappropriate not to reference these kinds of categories since they are authoritative groupings. To show usage of an authoritative taxonomic category is like showing the usage of any other type of authority file. I can't believe referencing where the authority defines the organizing system, the standard of relationships between things, is incorrect — usage does not define this type of thing. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

If you don't believe me that we do not reference definitions, you can ask e.g. DCDuring, or check our Appendix:English dictionary-only terms, whose content is perfectly referenced albeit not really in use and therefore absent from the mainspace. Or you can look around to see how many referenced definitions you find in the English Wiktionary. Let me point out the idea of common practice to you: if you look around, you will find how we actually do things here. Looking around is much safer than reading draft policies written by all sorts of would-be editors. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:18, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
You misunderstand what is being referenced. A citations page provides the quotes for wiktionary attestation, the references provide real world attestation about the structure of the knowledge not the use of the term. For example, if I find a quote, about something which is authoritatively categorized as a beaver, that describes a beaver as a kind of palm tree, that quote is about how the term is used — it would be nonsensical to claim that such a quote has anything to do with the categorization of the actual beaver. I did not use the references for definitions but for structure. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 21:27, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
My position is clear: we don't reference definitions. Consider asking someone else, e.g. DCDuring. Note that, in Nosema, I have been reverted by ‎Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV, a user noted for unexplained reverts (such as this one, check the edit summary) and for harassing me. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:36, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
Here’s the explanation:
  • Your edit caused a load of error messages to appear in the entry;
  • Your claim that we don’t reference definitions is absolute bullshit.
Ungoliant (falai) 21:55, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
My point is, again, that I am not referencing the definition that the references point to. I am providing the user with the context to decide which definition to use. There are two senses, each with different authority, by removing the references the user has much less information about which definition to chose. The references are not to definitions but to authority files in the same way that an ISBN or a Dewey number or a VIAF number, they are identifications within particular structures not about usage. I can, of course, place two or three words from each of those sources into quote marks... but that would be terms without context and therefore nonsensical. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 22:00, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
The explanation was directed at Dan Polansky. Your edits are appreciated, BoBoMisiu. — Ungoliant (falai) 22:02, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
As for "Your claim that we don’t reference definitions is absolute bullshit", the kind reader will easily verify that it is the absolutely overwhelming practice of the English Wiktionary not to reference definitions; the practice is to provide attesting quotations. Provision of attesting quotations is not referencing; adding a <ref> tag after a definition that leads to a dictionary is referencing, and something the English Wiktionary verifiably in general does not do. I direct the reader to WT:RFV page, and see how requests for verification are handled there; the reader will see that such requests are handled by provision of attesting quotations, and that references to dictionaries or other authoritative sources making claims about definitions are not provided there. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:54, 3 April 2015 (UTC)

Your reverts of Sophy[edit]

You wrote in the edit summary, "remove references from the definition: we do not reference definitions, instead seeking attestation of actual use per WT:ATTEST". Please note that Citations:Sophy exists for attestation. There are two senses to the word, the references proved a link to which definition is found in which source. There are also other senses to the word which have not yet been added. The references are not for WT:ATTEST which is clearly made on Citations:Sophy. —BoBoMisiu (talk) 22:51, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

Your block cs.wikt[edit]

Hi, I saw you were blocked on Czech Wiktionary for two weeks (!!). This is the biggest bullshit I've seen there so far. (Note to passers-by: Dan Polansky reverted an important policy change that was performed without any discussions about it whatsoever.) Well, is there something we can do about it? --Auvajs (talk) 02:45, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Don't worry about it. There is plentiful evidence in the Czech Wiktionary that is damning for the blocking admin and the small oligarchy ruling the place with a very unwiki iron fist. Their non-consensual wholesale removal of all images from the Czech Wiktionary is on record. Let us see for how long these people can escape just consequences of their unjust actions. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:39, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
There is one thing you can do. As many people as possible need to restore my changes at cs:Wikislovník:Formát hesla. If you don't do that, the oligarchy will use the fact that you did not edit the page as "evidence of consensus", disregarding the disagreement in the discussion; this is what they are doing right now in reference to that non-consensual edit from 2012. Ideally, your edits should have a meaningful English edit summary so that the whole thing is easy to understand and follow for admins across the world. As a community, you must produce verifiable evidence of resistance to the oligarchy. --Dan Polansky (talk) 06:55, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
Well, if I reverted it back they'd probably block me too. I was already blocked for using the expression "chroničtí mazači" (chronic deleters) - despite the fact there is a user who routinely uses much harsher expressions - but she's a part of this oligarchy so she can do anything, you know. But back to the images - yes there was absolutely no consensus of removing them and they repeatedly stated that a consensus is needed to remove a consensus. But even if we are obviously right, we can't do anything. From what I've heard stewards don't remove admin rights if there is no consensus on the site for it. So if an admin blocks out all his opponents or makes them leave he can stay there literally for ever. It's sad but this is how Wikimedia projects run. There is no other solution how to change cs.wikt except bring more supporting people and vote them out. Leaving the project as a sign of protest leads nowhere - admins from other sites can't interfere. Only stewards could interfere but in this situation they'd probably say this is a inner wiki conflict and the wiki must solve it on its own. They have some policy to not interfere in inner wiki conflicts. --Auvajs (talk) 08:08, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
You must revert back at least once at cs:Wikislovník:Formát hesla to my revision and thereby risk being blocked for it. There is no other way. You must not be intimidated. These admins now claim that because no one reverted the non-consensual 2012 edit, there actually was consensus. That is outrageous: because people were nice and civil and limited their actions to discussion pages, their opposition is now being disregarded. You must not repeat the error that the opposers made in 2012. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:14, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
I'm not intimidated but I can guess that it will lead nowhere. --Auvajs (talk) 08:28, 4 April 2015 (UTC)
You have to take risks. Political actions have very uncertain outcomes. Nonetheless, the more opposers produce objectively verifiable evidence of opposition directly in cs:Wikislovník:Formát hesla, the more difficult it is going to be for the junta to claim that there was actually consensus for wholesale removal of images. Thus, other opposers of the wholesale removal of images from the Czech Wiktionary must follow my example and your example, and edit cs:Wikislovník:Formát hesla to restore my revision. You can think of it as an analogue of a vote: no endless discussions which are too long to read and contain volumes of irrelevant arguments why images are actually harmful in a dictionary. Each editor who edits cs:Wikislovník:Formát hesla to restore my revision is in effect casting a vote. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:02, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

Ref Trolling (cs.wikt)[edit]

Just out of curiosity: how would en.wikt community react to this kind of trolling? --Auvajs (talk) 08:16, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

Adding "doplňte zdroj" (citation needed, RFV) to what is, per WT:CFI, attested by "clearly widespread use" should be reverted. Ideally, the reverting should be done not by a single person but rather, each additional revert should be done by another person. The reverts should not be mere reverts but should have clear, civil edit summaries; the word "troll" should not appear in the edit summaries. Given the suspicion of systematic improper administration of the project, the reverting edit summary could be in English but it is more polite to the community for it to be in Czech; I used English since I am confident the project is improperly administered. The use of the word "trolling" should better be limited: while it is true that user Dubicko/Lenka64 engages in disruptive behavior, not each disruptive behavior is trolling.
Prospective edit summaries:
  • "Odstranit požadavek na ověření zřejmého"
  • "Remove request for verification of obvious meaning that is in widespread use"
  • "cs: Odstranit požadavek na ověření zřejmého; en: remove request for verification of obvious meaning that is in widespread use"
    This is both in Czech and English, so should be polite enough to the local community.
If user Dubicko/Lenka64 continues to revert, the next step is to post to their talk page. The user probably won't respond in a helpful way, but it does not matter: it is of advantage to produce objective verifiable evidence that you have tried to resolve the issue by talking to the user. Each person who supports the request to the user should add their post to the thread in the talk page, to produce objective verifiable evidence that the originator of the thread on the talk page is not a lone voice. During all that, it is essential, even if hard, to remain civil. It is of great value to avoid speculation about motives of user Dubicko/Lenka64. When referring to the user, it is of value to always use the combination Dubicko/Lenka64 rather than using Dubicko alone, to provide cross-reference. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:36, 5 April 2015 (UTC)

desysop @ cs.wikt[edit]

Hi, have a look at this: cs:Wikislovník:Hlasování/Zbavení práv správce uživatele Milda. Since there are other inactive users voting I invite you to cast a vote as well (after your block expires). User:Milda is one of the reasons cs.wikt has such a bad community. --Auvajs (talk) 00:49, 14 April 2015 (UTC)

Lemming heuristic[edit]

The lemming heuristic (AKA lemming test, lemming principle and lemmings heuristic) states that a putative sum-of-parts entry nominated to RFD can be kept for the reason that it is present in certain kind of dictionaries. The heuristic was, AFAIR, proposed by DCDuring years ago and used in RFD over the years on an informal basis by multiple people. It was discussed in Beer parlour in Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2014/January#Proposal: Use Lemming principle to speed RfDs, where it received a broad support with some opposition. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:29, 18 April 2015 (UTC)

I added Babel template[edit]

Pretty much the only language I'm fluent in is English. I started trying to learn Irish and French on Rosetta Stone and have had some very limited success so far, but not enough to be able to do anything with them on my babel template yet.--PaulBustion88 (talk) 10:35, 1 May 2015 (UTC) Is the reason that you asked me to add a template about which languages I knew because you didn't like the foreign language entries I created, and should I nominate those for deletion also? An example of one I created is Impireacht na Breataine. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 22:49, 4 May 2015 (UTC)


Phrasebook is a contentious issue. Vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2012-12/Removing phrasebook had no consensus.

Criteria for inclusion for phrasebook:

  • WT:CFI#Idiomaticity states that phrasebook entries are "very common expressions that are considered useful to non-native speakers". The quoted part suggests the following inclusion criteria: a phrasebook entry has to be (1) very common, and (2) useful to non-native speakers.
  • Template {{phrasebook}} mentions three criteria that a prospective phrasebook entry must meet: usefulness, simplicity and commonness. That is similar to the above, adding the criterion of simplicity.
  • Appearance of the phrase in published phrasebooks is a criterion proposed in Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-10/Phrasebook CFI, which failed; the opposers deemed the criterion too stringent.

I argue why phrasebook entries can be useful at User talk:Dan Polansky/2013#Usefulness of phrasebook.

There is Wiktionary:Phrasebook, linking to votes and discussions.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 11:08, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

Your agenda.[edit]

Each time you post on my talk page I get the impression that you have an agenda, and that it is to get me banned. And that you are trying to get me to talk to use my words against me, like a police officer does. I will not write sentences like the one you mentioned anymore, but do not post on my talk page anymore. There are other editors who can post if there are problems. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 13:58, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

CodeCat apparently agrees with you since they blocked me for 7 days for "Intimidating behavior/harassment" for my posts on your talk page. I believe my posts to your talk page are entirely legitimate and justified. I also believe that you should be blocked from the English Wiktionary, and that you should go away and find another place to troll. In Wikipedia, they know better how to deal with you: they have blocked you. CodeCat should be desysopped but I won't hold my breath. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:41, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I did troll in the past. But I don't think I'm doing that here. I put a few funny sample sentences in, but I have taken them all down now. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 14:44, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

I actually suggested that you be unblocked, even though I resented what you posted on my talk page. I've taken down some of the funny sentences I wrote, and I'll look through all my edit history and take down anything that could possibly be interpreted as a joke. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 14:52, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
If you look at my editing history here the vast majority of it is serious, there are only a few things that are jokes here, and they're in the sample sentences. And I've taken all of the ones I remember down, I'll look through my edit history and try to take the rest down if there are any I do not remember. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 15:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Hello. I took down these sentences, diff, diff, diff, diff. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 15:16, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Thank you, PaulBustion88, for requesting my unblock in diff. Please use {{diff}} when you want to refer to diffs, to make the text ligible. The above bare URLs that you have posted are less than nice. --Dan Polansky (talk) 15:53, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I have replaced the bare URLs above with uses of diff template. Please revert me if you disagree since editing other editor's posts is generally discouraged; I do it only to make the text much more ligible, and without changing the substance of your post. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:02, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
You recommended I be blocked for trolling based on this sentence, diff, but actually even though it is kind of a joke, its based on something one of my friends said to me, it is how people use the word "fuck", to express irritation, which is what is being done in that sentence. I've taken down all sentences I wrote that were like that one though. So, do you still feel that I should be blocked from English wiktionary? --PaulBustion88 (talk) 16:09, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I've managed to edit simple English wiktionary without being disruptive at all, . If you look through all those edits, there have been complaints about what I wrote being slightly to complex, but none about my being disruptive. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 16:12, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
You're still posting way too much and way too fast. Calm down. Work out what you want to say first, then make a single short post about it. Equinox 16:13, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
  • I don't know how to explain that "Every day its Mormonism this, Mormonism that, what the fuck, you talk about it every day" is a sentence that you should not add to dictionary entry "fuck". Whatever the merits of Mormonism, it does not need to be associated in this frivolous manner with the word "fuck". Have to asked your highschool teacher what they think of these sort of sentences? --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I dropped out of high school in 2003, so that would be impossible. Anyway, I took all my sentences of that nature down, so its kind of irrelevant at this point. And I nominated the dumb entry I wrote, restitutive fantasy, for deletion, do you have any complaints about edits I made that are currently still parts of the articles, as opposed to ones that have already been deleted? --PaulBustion88 (talk) 16:27, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I don't know; I would have to make a thorough review, which I am disinclined to do. You do realize you are making use of my time and my attention, a scarce resource? You do realize that, recently, you have posted multiple long blocks of text to talk pages of multiple other editors, making use of their time and attention, scarce resource? Do you realize that, so far, you have shown to have close to nothing to offer in exchange as per your mainspace and user talk space editing history? --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:39, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
First of all, you do realize you contacted me first, and multiple times, not just once. Second of all, a slightly different question, do you still think I should be blocked, or have you changed your mind? That's my last question. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 16:46, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I contacted you first, after seeing loads of bad mainspace editing and volumes of irrelevant or marginally relevant texts posted to other editor's talk pages: you've been wasting editor scarce resources before I contacted you. Seeing how the "nice" methods used by other editors to deal with you led to virtually no results, I used one of the most efficacious methods discovered to date (although the results of the clinical trials are still pending): I posted to the user talk page of the user who makes dubious edits. While efficacious, the method is not safe, at least not for the administering physician who is not an admin. As for whether you should be blocked: probably not immediately, but if further adding of questionable example sentences and such continues, I recommend issuance of a series of short blocks. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:01, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I've not been writing any questionable sentences lately or any jokes. So I've improved. And I'm never going to make jokes here again. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 02:21, 7 May 2015 (UTC)
Equinox seems to agree with you that I should not be editing here, and I reluctantly concluded he's right. So I'm not going to edit the site after now. I guess you should be happy. This is my last edit. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 03:41, 7 May 2015 (UTC)

Anglo-Egyptian Sudan deletion[edit]

Hello Mr. Polansky. I agree with some of your criticisms of my editing. I think some of the entries I created were dumb. One of them was Anglo-Egyptian Sudan. The reason I think that entry was dumb is because it really just means the sum of its parts, it was the Sudan when it was a colony ruled jointly by the Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland (later Great Britain and Northern Ireland) and Egypt. What else would Anglo + Egyptian + Sudan mean? I nominated it for deletion, would you support my nomination of that and restitutive fantasy for deletion? --PaulBustion88 (talk) 04:17, 4 May 2015 (UTC)

Dr. Paul Bustion[edit]

I know you're going to get on my case about this, so I'm answering the question before you ask it. Dr.PaulBustion is a different user from me. I asked my dad if he wanted to create an account to edit English wiktionary and simple English wiktionary and he did. He edited the articles about neurology on both sites because he's a neurologist, but he's a different person from me, not a sock monkey or whatever multiple user accounts are called. He's my dad. I think he's only made edits to those two articles on neurology, the one here and the one on simple English wiktionary. --PaulBustion88 (talk) 05:42, 5 May 2015 (UTC)


Hello. You might want to take a look at it. --Dixtosa (talk) 17:19, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Let someone else figure out whether what I originally posted to the talk page of template:cs-suff and was moved to Template:cs-suff/documentation should still carry my signature. --Dan Polansky (talk) 09:25, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

"especifically" is probably misspelled.[edit]

   My title for this message is taken from the top of the #4 US-Google hit for the word. The #1 hit is from Merriam-Webster, listing a "new word", seemingly explaining it as a portmanteau word, but contributed by someone who offered their name but no title or affiliation with the name. The #2 is a partial match to the entry for the Catalan word "especific", in en:Wikt, and other en:WP and en:Wikt hits are on a talk page and in descriptions of other words' specific domains, respectively -- by contributors who i think in each case were a non-native English-speaker. #5 is the personal name of a 'net-graphical paper-doll on a choose-from-this-list-of-languages page. I haven't checked OED, but i'm pretty sure English use of the word is somewhere on the range between super-peculiar and bizarre. I admire the many non-native speakers of English whose English is far better than my only even-marginally-usable second language, but IMO this term should be thot of as a trap.
--Jerzyt 08:55, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

Thanks; I fixed the two occurrences that I found: diff, diff. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:42, 11 May 2015 (UTC)

I saw that you requested that I be allowed my talk page access back, thanks[edit]

I saw that you requested that I be allowed my talk page access back,[4], thank you. I wrote an unblock request on my other account, and I stated on it that I would not argue with people if they do not agree with my changes if I'm allowed back. Could you ask an administrator to look at it? Also right before I was blocked I had stopped insisting on my viewpoint in a variety of areas, I had dropped my argument that the rape definition should include the traditional definition, the one I had with Equinox, I had dropped my argument that the pedophilia definition should be restricted to adults who want to sexually molest small children and had accepted the broader definition being included in the entry, I had dropped my argument that the term British Isles was obsolete, I had dropped my insistence on the terms "mostly or only" in sexual attraction related articles instead of "primarily or exclusively". So I had moderated my stances in a number of ways. And I stopped writing trollish sentences after you criticized me for it, and I deleted all of my trollish sentences. What prompted Equinox to say I should be banned was this sentence,[5], that sample sentence did not change the value of the entry, man molests works just as well as woman molests. Also notice I learned how to abbreviate links, so I've improved in another respect. --PaulBustion87 (talk) 09:54, 12 May 2015 (UTC)

I don't have anything to add. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:27, 16 May 2015 (UTC)
[6], On Simple English wiktionary, I didn't make jokes at all, except for one sample sentence I wrote, and it still worked as a sentence, and I went with the flow when I was corrected. I've also edited wikinews so far without making any jokes at all or being disruptive at all, [7].PaulBustion87 (talk) 11:08, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Kephir, again[edit]

He's up to his old tricks. I commented on his talk page and he deleted the comment as vandalism. I then commented that I considered his deletion rationale inappropriate; knowing him, he'll (inaccurately and in complete bad faith). I am seriously considering pulling the trigger on the request for de-sysop. Purplebackpack89 13:49, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

And, yes, he indeed deleted the talk page thread, then blocked me for six months without talk page access. The block lasted a grand total of five minutes. Initiate! Purplebackpack89 13:59, 20 May 2015 (UTC)
Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2015-05/User:Kephir for de-sysop, FWIW. I didn't transfer your preliminary support, so you'll have to re-sign on. Purplebackpack89 14:13, 20 May 2015 (UTC)

I saw that you advocated I be blocked again.[edit]

Hello. I see that you have advocated my being blocked again. Before, you wrote this, "As for whether you should be blocked: probably not immediately, but if further adding of questionable example sentences and such continues, I recommend issuance of a series of short blocks." So are you now advocating I be permanently blocked from the site again, or are you advocating a series of short blocks again? I'm not trolling anymore, so what's the problem? I also appeased my critics such as Equinox and did everything they asked me to do. Equinox criticized me for focusing on correct use of words instead of common, and I've dropped that position. He criticized me for insisting that rape could only be a man's sexual attack on a woman, not the other way around, and I dropped that position, [8], adding the point to the rape entry explicitly that it could be either sex, "but today applying to any sex act forced by either sex upon another person."-sche [9] tweaked my wording, but left it in the entry, so it also wasn't a terrible edit. Equinox also criticized me for insisting on using the medical definition of pedophilia "[10] So are we defining things in terms of what they mean in practice, or in terms of what PaulBustion88 says they mean according to the medical establishment? jus checkin. Equinox 23:59, 27 April 2015 (UTC)" , limiting it to sexual attraction to prepubescent children instead of using the popular definition of adult sexual attraction to children under some arbitrary chronological age like 15 years or 18 years, and I accepted Equinox's viewpoint and removed the medical definition from the entry, [11]. So that shows I've become more reasonable in my editing. PaulBustion87 (talk) 18:57, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

Since User:PaulBustion88 is blocked, User:PaulBustion87 should be blocked as well. Your use of User:PaulBustion87 is a block evasion. It has been tolerated until now but I don't know why. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:04, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
So do you feel like I should be blocked from wiktionary forever, or do you think I should ever be allowed back as long as I don't troll or go against consensus?PaulBustion87 (talk) 19:05, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
Let's start with six months and see how that works. Cheers! bd2412 T 19:10, 21 May 2015 (UTC)
I appreciate that you (PaulB) are taking my criticisms into account, but I'm only one person. I think it would be good if you didn't focus on "stopping doing whatever anyone criticises you for, once", but on trying to get a feel for the general purpose of a dictionary (i.e. defining words, so that people not knowing what a word means can find out) and not being political or over-complex about the words, nor turning every little issue into a massive dispute that frankly nobody has got time to read. I feel as though I've said this before. And, again, I'm just one person. Equinox 23:54, 21 May 2015 (UTC)


There's a discussion on it at the moment. You should probably go to it and support it. Ironically, the person who cited the discussion has yet to comment in said discussion (and I can say that because the interaction ban has yet to be enacted; you should eventually get yourself one of those because he's going to give you that much more hell because he can't give me any). Purplebackpack89 04:56, 7 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing to Wiktionary:Grease pit/2015/June#Template:archive-top. I've commented there. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:19, 7 June 2015 (UTC)


Thanks for the idioms, Dan! Please don't forget to tag them as {{cx|idiom}} --Type56op9 (talk) 08:31, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the heads up. However, I am not very clear about when the template should be applied, so I'll leave it to someone who does think to have a clear idea. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:59, 9 June 2015 (UTC)

Wikisaurus redlinks[edit]

OK. I did some crazy search-and-replace. Specifically, I believe I got all instances of {{ws}} in English Wikisaurus pages where the 1= parameter is a redlink. I didn't get nomen vicis at Wikisaurus:noun because it was outside the {{ws}} parameter, though apparently this is rare. Also, I didn't do anything to exclude text within <!-- --> so I got doylt that is hidden in comments at Wikisaurus:pig. --Daniel 01:09, 14 June 2015 (UTC)

Let's draft a vote for CFI translation criteria 2[edit]

@bd2412: As a follow up on #Let's draft a vote for CFI translation criteria, I'd like to make the following amendment to the latest draft:

A translation target is a common English multi-word term or collocation that is useful for hosting translations. Some attested translation targets should be included despite being non-idiomatic and some excluded, but there is no agreement on precise, all-encompassing rules for deciding which are which. Therefore, the following criteria for inclusion of attested non-idiomatic translation targets are tentative:

  • The attested English term has to be common; rare terms don't qualify.
  • A translation does not qualify to support the English term if it is:
    • a closed compound that is a word-for-word translation of the English term: German Autoschlüssel does not qualify to support the English "car key"; or
    • a multi-word phrase that is a word-for-word translation of the English term; or
    • a diminutive: Spanish mecedorcito does not qualify to support the English "small rocking chair"; or
    • an augmentative: Portuguese amigão does not qualify to support the English "good friend"; or
    • a comparative or a superlative; or
    • a phrase in a language that does not use spaces to separate words.
  • At the very least, two qualifying translations must support the English term. Editor judgment can require a higher number, on a case-by-case basis.
  • The existence of a rare single-word English synonym of the considered English term does not disqualify the considered English term: the existence of Anglistics, which is rare, does not disqualify English studies.

Thus, I inserted "that is a word-for-word translation of the English term" into the item about closed compound. The rationale is that Italian autoscuola should IMHO support driving school; the fact that autoscuola is a closed compound alone does not harm as long as the term does not result from a word-for-word translation, and is thus interesting. What do you think? --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:53, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

  • I agree. Also, if we are disqualifying diminutives, we should also be disqualifying augmentatives. For example amigão should not support the English "good friend". bd2412 T 19:41, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
    • @bd2412: I added an item for augmentatives, and moved the multi-word phrase item close to the closed compound item. I fear that the set of the likes of diminutives and augmentatives is larger. The broader them encompassing both diminutives and augmentatives could be "forms produced by a very regular and productive morphological process" or the like. Anyway, I think it is good enough to leave this covered by the criteria being tentative. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:47, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
      • When we get into adjectives, many comparatives and superlatives are formed by such a process. For example, Finnish valaistuneempi and valaistunein should not support more informed and most informed. bd2412 T 20:11, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
        • @bd2412: Item added. I wonder how many are still missing. --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:21, 19 June 2015 (UTC)
          • I think that's about it. English tends to use "more" and "less" and the like where some languages modify the word. bd2412 T 22:01, 19 June 2015 (UTC)


Hello! Thank you for taking notice of my additions and cleaning them up some. For my future reference, I have a couple of questions:

  • How did you distinguish between "Hyponyms" and "Various"? I understand that anxiety and phobia, for instance, are most commonly used without intended reference to mental illness, but so is depression (wrongly); and co-dependent, delirium, dementia, hypochondria, and senility all refer to unsoundness or disorder of mind in their definitions in some way. (I've also been compiling more related words to add - psychosis being the one I can't believe I forgot at first - so this would be immediately useful to me.)
  • I looked at WT:ATTEST! I'm not sure how or where to discuss attestation of a word, though (and I'm not confident enough to try making a new page for one to discuss it on, either, just linking and categorising). With tarassis, the "conveying meaning" criterion seems to be the only questionable one; most of the sources I know of for it are wordlists, but I have found a discussion on Wordsmith which cites it (as does one of the wordlists above) to Mrs. Byrne's Dictionary, argues about whether or not she made a mistake, finds its repeated use in French, identifies a plausible derivation from Hippocrates, and finally finds a mention in a scientific etymology book from 1959, which in turn cites that the term was coined and proposed by Sanoaville de Lachèse in 1886. I've also found some mentions in technical references; texts on the history of psychology and (possibly) sociolinguistics; and a few titles of various kinds of artwork with a psychological motif. But a lot of this seems to fall somewhere between 'mention' and 'use' and I have no idea how much, if any of it, is valid.

-- Noaqiyeum (talk) 03:53, 30 June 2015 (UTC)

1) Obviously, "anxiety" is not a hyponym of "insanity": not every instance of anxiety is an instance of insanity. Similarly for phobia: people with phobias are not considered insane. 2) WT:ATTEST requires that terms are shown to be used, not merely listed in dictionaries or word lists. It does so via the phrase "conveying meaning", detailed in WT:CFI#Conveying meaning. If you think you have attesting quotations of tarassis meeting WT:ATTEST, please place them at Citations:tarassis, and we'll see how good they are. Citations:individual shows example formatting. Most of the links provided by you above are not from what is considered to be permanently recorded media. In any case, Wikisaurus is not for addition of redlinks; if you think the term exists, please add it to the mainspace rather than to Wikisaurus. --Dan Polansky (talk) 18:53, 3 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay, thanks! :) Last thing, though - you didn't say anything about co-dependent, delirium, dementia, hypochondria, and senility? -- Noaqiyeum (talk) 22:50, 21 July 2015 (UTC)


I'm pretty agnostic on Wikisaurus:thesaurus, I think it's useful but I wouldn't be upset if it were deleted. Wikisaurus:dictionary is pretty interesting I think, and has some synonyms I think a lot of people aren't aware of, so I'd rather keep that one. WurdSnatcher (talk) 13:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

I responded at User_talk:WurdSnatcher#Wikisaurus. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:49, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Gödel, Escher, Bach[edit]

Good grief. I didn't know that anyone else had read that. I still have it in a box that I haven't gotten around to opening since I moved house last year. I must get myself organised. SemperBlotto (talk) 07:28, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

I guess User:I'm so meta even this acronym read that too; his user name would be an allusion to Hofstadter. I haven't read the complete book recently, although I reread a chapter not too long ago. The book drove a couple of interesting ideas home for me. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:37, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@SemperBlotto, Dan Polansky: I do own a copy of the book, but as with most of my hundreds of books, I haven't yet got round to reading it (despite the username). I assume you'd both recommend it, yes? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 16:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)


I am currently in my computer in the process of writing a new BP discussion addressing the issues of the current version of WT:NORM which were raised in the vote's page, so that the same policy can be voted separately in the near future after any corrections are made. Thank you for asking whether I agree about expanding the current vote; for the reason I mentioned, I'd really prefer if the vote remained closed, not extended. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 07:43, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Okay; I'll reclose. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:50, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
You should especially not extend any votes given the questionable ethics of the practice. But I guess you care little about that. Keφr 07:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
There is nothing unethical about extending votes. Thank you for the link. In that discussion, I fail to find any substantiated objections to the practice of extending votes. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:04, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Furthermore, extending votes really is a long-standing practice in the English Wiktionary, e.g. in Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-05/Placenames with linguistic information 2. And here, for me, a transparent link to the discussion: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2015/July#Persistent extensions of votes. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:09, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@Dan Polansky: Thank you for your intent on reclosing the vote; I see that Kephir already did that. Here is a link to the new BP discussion I said I was writing: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2015/July#Normalization of entries 2. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 08:07, 19 July 2015 (UTC)


Hello Dan, could you check this verb. I think it is wrongly translated (implying a derivation from stín) as "cast shadow", the usage I find in Ústav pro jazyk český, give the sense of "block, be a wall between" which would link this verb to stěna.

  • Stíníš mi ve výhledu.
  • Část vedení mezi jiskřištěm a odporem je stíněna proti vyzařování.

nastínit on the other hand is clearly from nástin.

Co myslis? --Diligent (talk) 08:32, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

In "stíníš mi ve výhledu", "cast a shadow" obviously does not apply. I'll see if I can find time to clarify this; I am too busy with politics, unfortunately. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:36, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
PSJC, which I added to stínit, has "vrhati stín na něco něčím" as a definition, and "Utěšeně stínila skupina starých stromů v hraběcí zahradě. Jir." as a quotation. Thus, "cast a shadow" is one of the senses. There is probably a sense missing to cover your example sentence "Stíníš mi ve výhledu". I think the sense you are looking for is an extension of the "cast shadow" sense.
As for etymology of "stínit", Rejzek 2001, entry stín, links "stínit" to "stín", not "stěna". That corresponds to the first sense "cast a shadow" that demonstrably exists.
As for "nástin", my guess is that it is derived from "nastínit", just like "nástřel" is derived from "nastřelit", or "nátěr" from "natřít". --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Political parties[edit]

Inclusion of political parties was being discussed at Talk:Democratic Party in 2009 and 2011, which resulted in deletion of Democratic Party and Republican Party. A recent nomination has a discussion that will be archived at Talk:Transhumanist Party. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:43, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Having fun talking to yourself? —Keφr 08:44, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Bored expanding the dictionary? [12]. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:54, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Somewhat, but even more disappointed in the "community" managing it. For one, because it still keeps utterly dishonest individuals like you around. —Keφr 07:08, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Re: "utterly dishonest individuals": any diff? --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:14, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Template:archive-top, again[edit]

There's consensus to have it your way. How come you haven't made the change? Purplebackpack89 13:28, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Grease_pit/2015/June#Template:archive-top does not show consensus for returning the option for "rfd delete" to the template. If you believe there is consensus, please list the users that support my change and those who oppose it. Among those who oppose it, I see Kephir, CodeCat, and maybe WikiTiki89, based on the listed discussion. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:07, 8 August 2015 (UTC)
Nah, I'd put WikiTiki89 in our column. Purplebackpack89 16:39, 14 August 2015 (UTC)

Czech possessive forms acting as adjectives[edit]

It is unclear how to treat Czech possessive forms derived from nouns and acting as adjectives, such as otcův (from otec), matčin (from matka), or orlův (from orel). I would be inclined to see them as inflected forms but they (1) are subject to further inflection, and (2) they behave like adjectives in the way they inflect and combine with nouns, and inflection should not lead to a change of part of speech (noun to adjective). They seem to share these two characteristics with Latin participles (Category:Latin participles).

The creation (whether inflection or derivation) is very productive and regular.

Czech dictionaries PSJC and SSJC do not have them as lemma entries, online search shows.

The term "possessive adjective" is used for them in the following:

The English counterpart is described at W:English possessive; the term "possessive case" is sometimes used to describe the English feature.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 13:26, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

One question to be clarified is whether they should be entered as lemmata. I tend to think we need a third category that is neither lemma nor an ultimate inflected form, whatever it is called. It is for "form of" entries that themselves have "form of" entries; thus, "form of entries" that are themselves inflected. Such include the comparatives and superlatives (mladší, nejmladší) but probably also Latin participles. One key thing about these, let's say, semi-lemmata is that they should not repeat information from their base entries, IMHO. Thus, mladší should not repeat etymology and related terms from mladý, which is "From Proto-Slavic *moldъ.", but can get longer, with cognates and such; and younger should not state the etymology of young. It should not be too much to ask the reader to go from a semi-lemma to lemma for some classes of information. --Dan Polansky (talk) 13:46, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

As for repetition of etymology of the base forms in the possessive adjectives, I want to avoid it. It is like repeating of adjective etymologies in the -ly adverbs derived from them, e.g. of huge in hugely. The adverb hugely's being a lemma does not mean it has to repeat the etymology of huge. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:29, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

A BP discussion:

Updated. --Dan Polansky (talk) 14:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

I populated Category:Czech possessive adjectives, mostly with -in items rather than -ův items. -ův items still need to be added. The category now has 327 items. Many items were just plain addition of "-in" after removing "a" at the end (Martina-->Martinin), but some required a modification of the last consonant (Radka-->Radčin, Bára-->Bářin, Olga-->Olžin).
Originally, I only wanted to place the likes of "possessive of Markéta" on the definition line, but then I figured many users could be at loss at what possessive means. Thus, I also added the likes of "Markéta's, Margaret's" after a colon, based on the assumption that these are some of the renderings into English.
I added a link to KNLA whenever possible. KNLA is a database showing scans of paper cards with attesting quotations. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:22, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Czech dictionaries[edit]

Czech dictionaries include the following:

  • Thesaurus linguae Bohemicae by Rosa, 17th century
  • Vollständiges Wörterbuch der böhmischen, deutschen und lateinischen Sprache by Tomsa, 1791, 1805
  • Neues ausführliches und vollständiges Deutsch-böhmisches Nazionallexikon oder Worterbuch by Thám, 1799
  • Deutsch-böhmisches Wörterbuch by Dobrovský, 1820, 1821
  • Slovník česko-německý (Slownjk česko-německý) by Jungmann, 1835–1839
  • Ouplný Kapesní slowník čechoslowanského a německého jazyka by Konečný, 1845
  • Česko-německý slovník by Šumavský, 1851
  • Slovník česko-anglický i anglicko český by Jonáš, 1876
  • Slovník jazyka anglického i českého by Mourek, 1879, 1882
  • Česko-německý slovník zvláště grammaticko-fraseologický by Kott, 1878–1893 - online
  • Slovník staročeský by Gebauer, 1838–1907
  • Českoněmecký slovník by Herzer and Prach, 1909-1916
  • Slovník jazyka českého by Trávníček and Váša, 1934-1937, 1941, 1946
  • Příruční slovník jazyka českého, 1935-1957 - online
  • Slovník spisovného jazyka českého, 1960-1971, 1989 - online
  • Český slovník věcný a synonymický by Haller and Šmilauer, 1969–1977
  • Slovník spisovné češtiny, 1978, 1994, 2003
  • ----
  • Etymologický slovník jazyka českého by Machek, 1957
  • Český etymologický slovník by Rejzek, 2001, 2015
  • ----
  • Stručný slovník českých synonym by Mašín and Bečka, 1947
  • Slovník synonym a frazeologismů by Bečka, 1977
  • Slovník české frazeologie a idiomatiky by Čermák, 1994
  • Slovník českých synonym by Pala and Všianský , 1994
  • Malý slovník českých slangů by Hubáček, 1988
  • Šmírbuch jazyka českého by Ouředník, 1988
  • Nová slova v češtině: slovník neologizmů by Martincová, 1998, 2004
  • Slovník nespisovné češtiny by Hugo, 2009
  • Slovník cizích slov by Klimeš, 1981, ..., 1998, 2005, 2010
  • Akademický slovník cizích slov, 1995, 2005 - online
  • Tezaurus jazyka českého by Klégr, 2007
  • Slovník současné češtiny, 2011

The selection was intended to focus on monolingual dictionaries before I realized I wanted to include bilingual dictionaries that originated at the beginning of lexicography concerned with the Czech language. Useful in confirmation of publication dates was --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:05, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Thám added. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:03, 7 February 2016 (UTC)
Kott added. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:12, 28 February 2016 (UTC)
Konečný added. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:09, 16 July 2016 (UTC)
Herzer and Prach added; ASCS boldfaced and noted as online; Slovník současné češtiny added. --Dan Polansky (talk) 08:52, 20 September 2017 (UTC)

Regnal names[edit]

Hi there. Way back in 2010 I added George VI and waited for the shitstorm. Nothing happened. Do you think I should add more of the same (English, French etc)? SemperBlotto (talk)

To my eye, there is a stronger case for what are unequivocally single-word names, having no space. Nonetheless, CFI does not forbid George VI, AFAICS, and "George VI" is in, AHD, and Collins; even MW has that is their George entry[13]. I would go by the lemming heuristic and keep the likes of "George VI". The lemming heuristic enables us to spend less time and attention on regulation and more time and attention on expanding the dictionary. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:29, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
The closest the CFI gets to excluding "George VI" is in WT:CFI#Names_of_specific_entities where it says "No individual person should be listed as a sense in any entry whose page title includes both a given name or diminutive and a family name or patronymic." That obviously does not apply to George VI. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:30, 13 September 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that was my thinking too. It also needs a French entry, as that would have a different pronunciation ("George seess" rather than "George the sixth"). SemperBlotto (talk) 10:34, 13 September 2015 (UTC)

Talk:poached egg[edit]

You used "kept" when the template still doesn't support it lol. Of course, I want the template to support it. Purplebackpack89 13:13, 20 September 2015 (UTC)

cs.wikt again[edit]

Have a look: wikt:cs:Wikislovník:Hlasování/Zbavení práv správce uživatele Danny B.. --Auvajs (talk) 21:07, 22 September 2015 (UTC)


Chtěl bych s Vámi probrat něco soukromě. Je to možné? --Auvajs (talk) 21:11, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

I usually prefer to communicate wiki-related matters online. You can even use Czech--no problem with that--but I will use English. I have learned that it is best to keep maximum transparency; email does not give me that transparency. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:07, 4 October 2015 (UTC)
Private communication makes certain things easier. One can be more open and informal. --Auvajs (talk) 21:25, 5 October 2015 (UTC)

Conditional voting[edit]

Conditional voting has some tradition in the English Wiktionary. Some votes that have it:

Conditional voting helps avoid the excess bureaucracy of drafting another vote that has the condition built in. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:41, 13 October 2015 (UTC)


If you don't already know about Keφr's tool aWa (A Wonderfool Archiver) you should try it out. I noticed that you seem to be archiving from RFV by hand, which is slower and doesn't automatically add backlinks from other relevant pages. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:05, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Czech given names - diminutives or pet forms[edit]

We have Category:English diminutives of male given names but I am not entirely happy about the name. Taking the Czech given name Jan, Janíček is a straightforward morphological diminutive but Honza is, morphologically speaking, not a diminutive of Jan but rather a derivation of the German Hans. The term "per form" might be okay, and finds some use in the definitions in en wikt. For the terms hypocoristic and hypocorism, I have not found any uses in the definition lines of given names.

Some category searches:


Definition lines:

  • Eddie: A diminutive of Edward, Edgar, Edwin, or other male given names beginning with Ed-.
  • Ben: A shortening of the male given name Benjamin or, less often, of Benedict.
  • Nicky: A short form of the female given names Nicola and Nicole.

Definition lines with markup:

  • Scottie: # A [[diminutive]] of the male [[given name]] [[Scott]].
  • Dickie: # {{non-gloss definition|{{given name|male|diminutive=Dick}}, a short form of the male [[given name]] [[Richard]]}}.
  • Tom: # {{given name|male|diminutive=Thomas}}
  • Alfie: # {{given name|male|diminutive=Alfred}} or [[Alfonso]], also used as a formal given name.

Labels in Czech dictionaries:

  • hypok.
  • fam.
  • dom.




  • pet form:[14]: "An altered form of a name used to express affection or familiarity."
  • diminutive: Merriam-Webster[15]: "an informal form of a name", as one of the senses

Other links:

Markup and wording options:

  • Use manual definition markup, both for morphological diminutives and pet forms, or use the markup from Tom: {{given name|male|diminutive=Thomas}}. Undecided.
  • For morphological diminutives, use the word "diminutive" in the definition.
  • For forms that are not morphological diminutives, leave it undecided whether to use "pet form", "short form" or "diminutive". I am inclined to use "pet form".
  • Place category "diminutives" manually at the bottom if needed. The name is not perfect but it will have to do for the time being. Placement not needed with {{given name|male|diminutive=Thomas}}.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 14:27, 24 October 2015 (UTC)

Updated. --Dan Polansky (talk) 16:26, 24 October 2015 (UTC)


There are a couple of things about paid editing I want to examine:

  • Is a payment for trivial cleanup edits a "bribe", as has been suggested? I don't think so. To begin with, not every payment made in exchange for services is a bribe. Wiktionary editors are not acting as employess, and have no official duties to accept bribes for.
  • Can paid manual boring cleanup edits be compared to paid toilet cleaning in a volunteer organization? I think so. And I see nothing wrong with paying someone to do the cleaning rather than letting the volunteers who came to do high-level intellectual work do the cleaning.
  • Is the monetary amount transferred an assessment of worth? Not necessarily. By that standard, Richard Stallman's work on free software would be much less valuable than similar software development work that was paid for, and that cannot be the case.
  • Is it fundamental to wikis that the contributions are unpaid? I don't think so. The free-as-in-freedom vs. free-as-in-beer distinction needs to be borne in mind. One key characteristic of wikis like Wikipedia is that the results are published under a copyleft license. Whether the material under that license was produced without payment or for payment seems less significant. The reader or the reuser of that wiki material does not need to pay anything anyway.

--Dan Polansky (talk) 19:29, 6 December 2015 (UTC)

Danke für deine Aufmerksamkeit[edit]

Übersätzung in Deutsch:
  • Hallo für alle! Leider ich kann kein flüssige Englisch zu sprechen, um die Debatte hier ohne Mißverständnissen zu leisten, ...ich weiß nicht so viel Englisch, so das ich klar und eindeutig in eine solche Diskussion sich zu äußern. Um es deutlich zu sein, Ich bin kein Rassist. Ich bin ein Autodidakt, im Alter von 67 Jahre, - von Beruf Elektronikfachmann mit hervorragenden Kenntnissen in der Grammatik, ging ich mit meiner Familie von Rumänien im Jahr 1986 aus. Deutsch und Polnisch kann ich gut, weniger gut Englisch, etwas Französisch, Russisch. Das Prinzip, dass mich mobilisiert und geleitet hat von Anfang in Übersetzungen englischer Wörter und Sätze ist das, dass rumänische Sprache ist, natürlich unter Beibehaltung der Proportionen, "Englishe Sprache" auf dem Balkan. Grammatik und Morphologie der Worte gibt uns klare Beweise dieser Idee, und der Fond gemeinen Wörter lateinischen Ursprungs, es hilft auch viel um die Idee der angebliche sprachliche Ähnlichkeiten zu deuten. BAICAN XXX (talk) 00:16, 20 December 2015 (UTC)
    Answered at User_talk:BAICAN_XXX#Deutsch, the original place of this conversation.
    Bitte, wenn du antwortest, antworte in User_talk:BAICAN_XXX#Deutsch. --Dan Polansky (talk) 10:55, 20 December 2015 (UTC)

Czech rhymes and diphthongs such as ou[edit]

I started creating rhymes with dipthong ou using adorned ou̯ markup rather than the plain ou markup. I am not sure what I based it on.

I have two sources online:

This is what the two sources say or use:

  • 1. In secion 3 Vokály, there is a table in which Krčmová uses ou̯ (adorned) markup. But below the table, Krmočová states that this can be also written as ou (plain markup). Further down the article, Krčmová uses ou̯ (adorned) in examples of markup.
  • 2. The 2012 article uses the plain version ou, e.g. in kouř and vplout, and in the table below Figure 3 on page 229. I do not see the adorned markup anywhere.

For the titles of rhyming pages, I see simplicity as key. Since the simple markup is allowed as possible by one of the sources, and is the only markup used in the other source, I opt for the simple markup and will proceed to change rhyme pages accordingly. --Dan Polansky (talk) 11:25, 28 December 2015 (UTC)

I do not think this is a good idea. Short time ago (before I read this) I answered you about a similar case of tʃ x t͡ʃ and ts x t͡s on my talk page. It is possible to use the non-diacritical version, but the diacritics makes it clearer. I also prefer things simple if possible, but not on the expenses of clarity. Jan Kameníček (talk) 22:42, 2 January 2016 (UTC)