User talk:Mahagaja/Archive 15

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to: navigation, search
This is an archive page that has been kept for historical purposes. The conversations on this page are no longer live.

*bʰ- roots

I'm skeptical of this. Could you check them out? @DerRudymeister, where are you getting these? The vowel *a in PIE is very rare. —JohnC5 16:26, 3 January 2017 (UTC)

Some of them are very obviously not roots either, so they should be removed. —CodeCat 16:30, 3 January 2017 (UTC)


This edit was odd enough that I thought I'd get a second opinion. Cleasby-Vigfusson has something else altogether. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:59, 4 January 2017 (UTC)

But the word in CV is a different word; it says it's a hapax meaning "oats". It is true that in early loanwords, Irish replaces Latin p with c because /p/ wasn't a native sound in Primitive Irish, so porphura > corcur/corcair is certainly plausible. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:05, 4 January 2017 (UTC)
@Aɴɢʀ: So sorry - I did not want to intervene in this discussion - but the old Irish form is much more likely to have been used in the Celtic era, and borrowed from the Ancient Greek, due to the proximity of races, rather than from Latin. Andrew H. Gray 12:07, 26 January 2017 (UTC)Andrew talk


@Angr: Thank you for the important grammar correction. Sorry for my recent edit details as I did not wish to interfere with your edits in any way; but the reason for the change to the semi-colon was because wudu is from its older form wiodu - a rare form, that was not only from the P.I.E. root, but also from the P.C. root that you presented. However the parallel form to "wiodu", that is widu is Germanic from the P.G. root, and was much more extensively used. The number of hybrid etymologies in English is so few; but my part is to increase accuracy of etymologies in Wiktionary, by minimal changes. Just because I do not adjust certain etymologies does not mean that they are justifiably correct, not only from my side but from that of others. Andrew H. Gray 12:19, 26 January 2017 (UTC)Andrew talk

Please help

Please help this page if you could. Sorry, but I dont know how to send message on this site. Propatriamori (talk) 12:08, 30 January 2017 (UTC)

by dint of

As a native, do you know whether this expression has a negative valoration of the result of the action (as thanks to has a positive perspective and because of is neutral). Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 10:08, 1 February 2017 (UTC)

@Sobreira: I wouldn't have thought so, no. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:12, 1 February 2017 (UTC)
I have used this phrase many times, and it is not negative. If anything, it is positive. —JohnC5 15:54, 1 February 2017 (UTC)


Could you please clean up the etymology here? Werdna Yrneh Yarg has been warned about his absurd etymological editing before, and I see he is returning to making edits in etymology sections. A blocking will be in order if he engages in the same behaviour again. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:54, 3 February 2017 (UTC)

Burmese Babel?

Hi Angr, sorry for taking your time, but just quickly: I see that you have been doing things on Myanmar (Burmese) on Wiktionary, yet you haven't got the language on your user page. Just noticed. Have you also been to Myanmar? – AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 09:06, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

No, I've never been there. And I don't have the Babel box on my user page because I don't speak it at all. I'm interested in it from a theoretical point of view, but I can't even say hello, goodbye, and thank you in it! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:09, 5 February 2017 (UTC)


Hiya, how do you spell in Burmese "yì-zà"? I'm having trouble with the Burmese input and can't find it in Sealang or Google. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:26, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Also, calling @Wyang. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:28, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
It is ရည်းစား (rany:ca:). I will create this entry. Wyang (talk) 06:32, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks a bunch! The tones marks in the Pocket dictionary are almost reversed to Okell! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:39, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
@Atitarev: The Periplus Pocket Burmese Dictionary ISBN 978-0-7946-0573-5? Their tone marks are almost the same as Okell: acute (´) for creaky and grave (`) for high; low is unmarked. The only difference in tone marking is that Periplus uses q for checked where Okell uses ʔ. What's reversed is Okell and Periplus with respect to IPA, where ´ stands for high and ` stands for low. So where Okell and Periplus write , IPA writes /zá/; and where Okell and Periplus write za (e.g. ဇာ (ja, lace)), IPA writes /zà/; and where Okell and Periplus write , IPA writes /za̰/. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:38, 17 February 2017 (UTC)
Yes, that's the one! Thanks for the useful info. Sorry, I checked it on the train on my iPhone. Yes, it's Okell & Periplus vs IPA confusion. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:15, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Burmese country names with နိုင်ငံ

@Wyang Hi,

I suggest to lemmatise Burmese country names with နိုင်ငံ (nuingngam) to those without it, and turns entries like အိန္ဒိယနိုင်ငံ (indi.ya.nuingngam) to hard redirects. Similar to how Thai, Lao and Khmer lack the word "country" (which is a prefix with these languages). Cf. Thai อินเดีย (in-diia).

Entries for countries could use usage examples, e.g.

အိန္ဒိယနိုင်ငံindi.ya.nuingngamIndia (country)

. It would reduce the number of entries required, even if Burmese uses country names with နိုင်ငံ. What do you guys think? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:20, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

I support this. Wyang (talk) 10:10, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
I support it too. Likewise, I'd omit မြစ် (mrac) from river names and မြို့ (mrui.) from city names. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:28, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
There are also language names. We need to move entries like ပြင်သစ်စကား to entries like ပြင်သစ်. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 14:08, 18 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, that's true. Especially since every language has at least three names: Xစကား for the spoken language, Xစာ for the written language, and Xဘာသာ as a cover term for both. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:14, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

Burmese words which become voiced due to being after ɴ or a vowel

Hi Angr, what kind of words usually undergo this phenomenon? — AWESOME meeos * (chōmtī hao /t͡ɕoːm˩˧.tiː˩˧ haw˦˥/) 20:20, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

It happens to all sorts of enclitics: postverbal particles, classifiers, postpositions, etc. It also happens in compounds, but not predictably. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:27, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

A few new Burmese entries


Also @Wyang. Guys, do you mind quality-checking a few Burmese entries I made recently, mainly for the pronunciation and transliterations?

နာမ်, အစိုးရ, ပြည်သူပြည်သား, ကြိယာ (Wyang suggested a respelling, probably OK), အစိုးရ, အာကာသ, ထွန်စက်, သမ္မတနိုင်ငံ, ဖက်ရှင်, ကုမ္ပဏီ, အသံထွက်, သမ္မတ, ဓာတ်ဆီ. No rush! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:01, 25 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for checking! More words: အကျဉ်းထောင်, လက်ဖက်ရည်, အင်တာနက်. Shall I just add {{attention|my|pls check pronunciation}} to the new words? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:50, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Yeah, that's probably a good idea. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:12, 26 February 2017 (UTC)
Thanks for fixing some entries! There are some new to check in the category, sorry. For some reason voicing didn't work on သေခြင်း. @Wyang. I'm getting a little bit better but thanks for your help with Burmese, guys! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:53, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
@Atitarev:. Fixed. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:51, 2 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks you, that was silly of me - I did it on the train on iPhone again. I meant there's more new entries to check in Category:Burmese terms needing attention. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:03, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Acute proctocephaly at Sanskrit entry

Among the plethora of module errors triggered by the addition of Module:parameters to Module:script utilities#lang_t is a real lulu at Sanskrit घृत (ghṛta). It has बभ्रवे नु सवतवसे ऽरुणाय दिविस्प्र्शे along with its "transliteration": {{lang|und|sc=Latinx|tvaṃ no vāyaveṣāmapūrvyaḥ somānāṃ prathamaḥ pītimarhasi sutānāṃ pītimarhasi|uto vihutmatīnāṃ viśāṃ vavarjuṣīṇām}}.

Granted, it's been 30 years since I took Sanskrit, but I can't see how either of those two parameters (the template can't handle both) could possible match the Devanagari, and the Devanagari doesn't seem to go with the rest of the quote. It was added in this diff by Ivan Štambuk right after he created the entry, so I can only conclude that it was a copypaste error.

Would you be so kind as to fix it? It would take me way too long to get up to speed enough to do it right. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 05:42, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

The translation given corresponded to more than the text provided. I've fixed it now. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 15:42, 3 March 2017 (UTC)

ဘင်္ဂလားဒေ့ရှ် and ဘလော့ဂ်


I'm having trouble with these two terms - ဘင်္ဂလားဒေ့ရှ် ( and ဘလော့ဂ် (bha.laug.), which are not in MED. Perhaps, like ယောက်ျား they need some manual handling and perhaps they should go into a tracking category, along with ယောက်ျား. Are you able to improve them? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:21, 8 March 2017 (UTC)

@Atitarev: How sure are you of these pronunciations? I feel like /bɪ̀ɴɡəládḛ/ and /bəlɔ̰/ are more likely. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:30, 10 March 2017 (UTC)
No, I am not sure at all how they are pronounced but many final consonants (non-nasal) are pronounced as glottal stops in loanwords in my observation. I just found a video where it sounds something like /bɪ̀ɴládɛʃ/ on this video at 00:16. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:55, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
It sure does sound like that; perhaps /bɪ̀ɴládɛ̰ʃ/ given the spelling. I wouldn't be surprised if speakers used full final consonants in unassimilated loanwords. Maybe ဘလော့ဂ် (bha.laug.) is thus /bəlɔ̰ɡ/. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 02:01, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Thanks, I'm OK with /bɪ̀ɴládɛ̰ʃ/ (it may not be the official or the common pronunciation, though), not sure about the "blog". User:Octahedron80 created entry ဘင်္ဂလားဒေ့ရှ် ( in the Thai Wiktionary with a phonetic in Thai. @Octahedron80, do you know how the term should be pronounced? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:40, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
I don't know either. I just take the name ဘင်္ဂလားဒေ့ရှ် from Myanmar Wikipedia. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:44, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Dialect labels in Ancient Greek inflection templates

Related to edits like this, I think it would be best not to use Ancient Greek dialect templates in {{grc-decl}}, {{grc-adecl}}, and {{grc-conj}}, since they will not be recognized by Module:grc-decl and Module:grc-conj, causing the module to instead display the Attic forms in the resulting inflection table. The best way to solve the problem of the module displaying the dialect code (for instance, epi rather than Epic in Ὀδυσσεύς), would be to fix the module. — Eru·tuon 17:10, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Actually, maybe the module sometimes recognizes the dialect templates, as in νέος (néos)? I am puzzled, because it appeared not to recognize it in Ὀδυσσεύς, since it displayed the Attic genitive Ὀδῠσσέως (Odusséōs). Oh, that was because eta was supplied as the feminine ending in νέος (néos). So it does not recognize the dialect templates. — Eru·tuon 17:14, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

OK, I won't change them anymore. I don't know how to fix the module. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:15, 11 March 2017 (UTC)
Neither do I. I have not been able to figure out how the modules work. I'm hoping @ObsequiousNewt will be able to work on it at some point. He seems to have been too busy to work on Wiktionary for a month now. — Eru·tuon 17:21, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Source for no relation between deus and θεός

You are being polemic, derogatory and ignoring the core of the issue. Please remove your last comment. Or else ... I might read up on dispute resolution. 23:33, 19 March 2017 (UTC)

Latin infinitives aren't useless

Latin infinitives aren't useless; they indicate the conjugation class much more effectively than the first person singular. mūtō might be mūtāre or mūtere; sapiō might be sapere, sapīre or sapiāre. The logic for including the infinitive is the same as the logic for including the 1st or 3rd person singular with Lithuanian infinitives, the genitive with Latin nominatives to indicate the stem, etc. Benwing2 (talk) 04:52, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

What's useless is linking to an entry that says nothing but "present active infinitive of mūtō", and the conjugation class isn't really relevant when all we're doing is listing cognates. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:17, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

အာရပ်စော်ဘွားများ ပြည်ထောင်စု - United Arab Emirates


@Wyang Would you break အာရပ်စော်ဘွားများ ပြည်ထောင်စု (arapcaubhwa:mya: pranyhtaungcu., United Arab Emirates) as:

အာရပ် (arap, Arab, Arabic, Arabian) + စော်ဘွားများ (caubhwa:mya:, emirate?) + ပြည်ထောင်စု (pranyhtaungcu., union)?

Not sure about စော်ဘွားမျ, if it's one word or two: စော်ဘွား (caubhwa:, Shan chief of former times, emir?) + များ (mya:, plurality marker). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:48, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Burmese Wikipedia writes အာရပ်စော်ဘွားများပြည်ထောင်စုနိုင်ငံ as all one word. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:30, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Thanks. You can see it's also spelled "အာရပ်စော်ဘွားများ ပြည်ထောင်စု" in the top right corner with a space. In any case, if you were to make the headword or etymology, would you split စော်ဘွားမျ (caubhwa:mya.) in two words. I still don't know if it's one word or two. It's not in MED but the separate parts don't make much sense. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:48, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't know either; sorry. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:51, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Irish distinctions /l̪ˠ ~ lˠ/, /l̠ʲ ~ lʲ/; /n̪ˠ ~ nˠ/, /n̠ʲ ~ nʲ/

Good morning, when I had a look at Help:IPA for Irish, there is a distinction (which seems to be merged in most), with the letters ⟨l⟩ and ⟨n⟩. However, I'm confused when to use the dental and the alveolar stops. One clue I gained from the table is that double letters have the dental version, while I'm completely confused with when to use the alovelars. Also getting @Embryomystic's attention — AWESOME meeos * ([nʲɪ‿bʲɪ.spɐˈko.ɪtʲ]) 02:31, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

The sounds [l̪ˠ] and [l̠ʲ] are "strong" sounds while [lˠ] and [lʲ] are "weak" sounds. The distribution of the two goes back to Old Irish. The weak sounds occur in the same environments that the lenited sounds bh, dh, gh, ch, etc. occur. Lenition (I think) occurred in Primitive Irish with consonants that occurred singly between vowels, but later sound changes have often obscured the conditioning factors so that all four laterals are phonemic. Benwing2 (talk) 08:17, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@Benwing2 Thanks! Because maybe {{ga-IPA}} as well as Module:ga-pron could be created, phonetic and phonemic, for the three (maybe four) main Irish dialects: Munster, Ulster, Connacht, and possibly Aran. Have a look at Module:User:Awesomemeeos/gaeilge to see what I mean... — AWESOME meeos * ([nʲɪ‿bʲɪ.spɐˈko.ɪtʲ]) 08:54, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@Awesomemeeos: Have you looked at w:Irish phonology#Fortis and lenis sonorants? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:19, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Sorta before, but now it's 10:00 (2000) at night and my eyes are tired... I will read that more properly tomorrow :-) — AWESOME meeos * ([nʲɪ‿bʲɪ.spɐˈko.ɪtʲ]) 12:21, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Avestan writing system flukes

Hey, thanks for going through and adding Avestan script throughout the project, but I'd mention the 𐬫 (y) ~ 𐬌𐬌 (ii) and 𐬬 (v) ~ 𐬎𐬎 (uu) distinction. The former of each pair are only used word-initially and the digraphs are used word-internally. Several old transcription systems use y and v respectively for both. You can find more at Appendix:Avestan script. This is just an FYI, and thanks for the effort! —JohnC5 17:16, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

@JohnC5, CodeCat What's the convention for writing Avestan words transliterated with a hyphen, e.g. {{cog|ae|tr=azarǝṣant-}}? Should we include a hyphen in the Avestan native script, or only in the translit (thereby specifying manual translit), or neither? Benwing2 (talk) 17:37, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I have no idea, I've never done anything with Avestan. —CodeCat 17:43, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5 I am trying to make it easier to automatically map varying transcription systems to the correct one using {{subst:chars}}. Is it OK if I map all non-word-initial y to ii and non-word-initial v to uu (where non-word-initial means preceded by any char but a space or hyphen), or are there exceptional cases where y or v occur non-word-initially? Benwing2 (talk) 18:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
There is an ongoing similar issue to this at Wiktionary talk:About Sanskrit#Hyphens in Devanagari?. The solution provided there should be used here. —JohnC5 19:17, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@Benwing I think the convention (until now) is to have no hyphen in Avestan native script. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 22:15, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
I've always wondered if we can automatically transliterate certain alphabets into Latin, wouldn't it be possible to do the reverse from Latin transliteration? Avestan seems a perfect candidate for this. --Victar (talk) 18:08, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
We do this in the Gothic inflection tables, at least. —CodeCat 18:12, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Thanks for letting me know. I don't know Avestan at all; I was just trying to add Avestan script by means of {{chars}} and taking the existing transliterations at face value. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:08, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Also: I don't have an Avestan font and only see boxes. Can you recommend a free font that includes Avestan? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:10, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I'll check when I get home, but there are plenty of free ones. —JohnC5 19:17, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5:: I just downloaded the two at w:Help:Multilingual support#Avestan, and now I don't get boxes anymore, so I'm good! —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 19:22, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Cool! I think I just chose one at random. —JohnC5 19:32, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Unfortunately I spoke too soon. I do see the Avestan letters provided they're enclosed within a template marking the text as Avestan. In the edit box and untemplated text, I still see boxes. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:22, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@Angr: The situation you've described is still the case on my work computer, but at home, I have them visible all the time. Unfortunately, the font specification on my home computer is a byzantine nightmare, and I'm not sure how I actually achieved this outcome. —JohnC5 20:28, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5 I installed the two fonts and I see the text fine in all circumstances. Although, I have a Mac, and you might have a PC. I have heard that IE in particular has (or used to have) problems with characters that aren't templated; if you're using IE, try Firefox. Benwing2 (talk) 20:59, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
I don't use IE (I'm not a complete barbarian!). I get the boxes for untemplated text in both Firefox and Chrome on my Windows PC. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 21:27, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
(edit conflict) @Angr: I have the same problem (Chrome, Windows 10). I guess Chrome doesn't recognize Avestan text and assign correct fonts to it, if it's not marked as Avestan script in the HTML. Perhaps Avestan is too specialized to be supported. The link templates {{l}} and {{m}} and headword template {{head}} mark Avestan with, for instance, <span class="Avst" lang="ae">Avestan text</span> (using Module:script utilities), and then MediaWiki:Common.css assigns certain fonts to any HTML tags containing that class using the CSS selector .Avst. The fonts assigned include the two that you downloaded. — Eru·tuon 21:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)
Looking at my home machine, on which I use Chrome, it turns out that I have boxes in the edit window as well. I guess I just stopped noticing a while ago. —JohnC5 22:07, 3 April 2017 (UTC) also has Old Persian and other dead scripts that few fonts support. Works with Wiktionary without any setup for my machine. —Aryamanarora (मुझसे बात करो) 22:17, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Ahh, so this is why you, Angr, converted haurva to 𐬵𐬀𐬎𐬭𐬎𐬎𐬀 (hauruua) in Appendix:List of Proto-Indo-European nouns? I was puzzled by the difference in the transliteration. — Eru·tuon 01:18, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
Yes, I'm taking JohnC5's word for it that non–word-initial v should be emended to uu. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:24, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
For reference, if you look at the third and fourth full headwords in the first column on this page Kanga's dictionary, you can see the spelling 𐬵𐬀𐬎𐬭𐬎𐬎𐬀 (hauruua). Frustratingly, if you search on this transcription of the dictionary, they use haurva. This is unfortunately something for which we will need to be vigilant or else provide filters to check for instances of characters in the wrong position. —JohnC5 15:38, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
@JohnC5 Are t and also in complementary distribution, with the former never being used in word-final position and the latter only being used there? Would it be possible to write Module:typing-aids/data/ae in such a way that it recognizes the difference between word-initial and non-word-initial y and w and between word-final and non-word-final t and renders them correctly for their position? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:12, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
According to this section, if it is to be believed, it's word-final and before some obstruents. I can't remember finding examples of this, but it may well be the case. This article, however, contains other dubious statements, so I don't know what to say. I can check on this when I get home though. —JohnC5 18:20, 5 April 2017 (UTC)
So according to Martínez and de Vaans' Introduction to Avestan, appears word-finally after a vowel or r or in the Young Avestan sequence t̰b-. This sound and 𐬕 (ġ) are the only stops that may be word-final with the latter of the two standing in complementary distribution with 𐬔 (g). and ġ are thought to be unreleased. —JohnC5 00:40, 6 April 2017 (UTC)


In the etymology section at pithecoid, the ει (ei) in πῐθηκοεῐδής (pithēkoeidḗs) is given as short. Is this a mistake? If not what does it mean? --WikiTiki89 15:55, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

It must be a mistake. AFAIK -ειδής (-eidḗs) just has ordinary ει. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:58, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Updating the translation adder

I would like to help update this so that it handles the autobalancing as you proposed. But it's quite a complex script and I'm not super experienced in JavaScript. Moreover, there doesn't seem to be a way to test a script, that I know of, before making it "live" for the entire site. So I'd prefer to make small piecemeal changes that can be easily tested and reverted if need be. I've created User:CodeCat/TranslationAdder.js as a copy, and made a few changes. Could you see if it still works? —CodeCat 16:12, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

@CodeCat: Sorry, I have no idea how to test that. I know nothing at all about JavaScript or any other programming language. I merely suggested that if {{col-top}} is autobalancing, {{trans-top}} should be able to be autobalancing as well; but I haven't the faintest idea how to go about making it so. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:22, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Ok, do you know who I could ask? —CodeCat 16:26, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Wikitiki89 is the one who wrote {{col-top}}; maybe he knows. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:32, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
But that's not JS. The autobalancing could be done without JS support. The problem is that by removing the hard-coded split between the two columns in translation tables, the translation editor will break. So it has to be updated to work with the new format, which is what I'm trying to do. —CodeCat 16:35, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
@CodeCat: I know less about JS than you do, but I think you could change the program to give an option of which version to use, with the default being the old version. That way you could test the new one without disrupting the old. Extra credit for making it so it functions the same as before unless you know how to activate the beta version. Chuck Entz (talk) 16:38, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
If there's a way for me to test it for me alone, that would be great. —CodeCat 16:41, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
Who wrote the translation editor? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:43, 8 April 2017 (UTC)
User:Conrad.Irwin, who isn't active anymore. —CodeCat 16:44, 8 April 2017 (UTC)


Hi Angr. The declension table you added to πᾶχυς lists πᾱ́χεων (pā́kheōn) as the genitive plural, whereas the entry's sole supporting quotation uses the genitive plural παχέων (pakhéōn). Which is right? BTW, thank you for answering all those Ancient Greek {{rfp}}s and {{rfinfl}}s recently. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 21:32, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

I have no idea. The stress pattern is generated automatically by {{grc-decl}}. Perhaps Aeolic has a different stress rule than Attic, but if so, adding |dial=aio doesn't produce it. I don't really know much about Aeolic. I know there's one dialect that has recessive accent in all words, not just verbs, but I can't remember which dialect it is now. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:16, 16 April 2017 (UTC)
Herbert Weir Smyth’s Greek Grammar for Colleges (1920), § 163.a reads:
  • Some nouns in -εως and -εων admit the acute on the antepenult. Thus, the genitive of nouns in -ις and -υς (πόλεως, πόλεων, ἄστεως), the forms of the Attic declension, as ῑ̔́λεως (289). So the Ionic genitive in -εω (πολῑ́τεω); also some compound adjectives in -ως, as δύσερως unhappy in love, ὑψίκερως lofty antlered. On ὧντινων see 186.
and § 271 operis citati reads:
  • Accent. – Final -ως of the genitive singular does not prevent the acute from standing on the antepenult (163 a). Thus πόλε-ως, πήχε-ως, ἄστε-ως. πόλε-ως retains the accent of the earlier πόλη-ος, which, by transference of quantity (34), became πόλε-ως. The accent of the gen. pl. follows that of the gen. sing.
Both of which point to πάχεων (pákheōn) being the correct form, being presumably derived from an earlier *πάχηον (pákhēon) by quantitative metathesis. But then why does the quotation have παχέων (pakhéōn)? I'm stumped. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:47, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
@Chuck Entz, Erutuon, JohnC5, ObsequiousNewt, can any of you explain this disparity? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:48, 17 April 2017 (UTC)
@I'm so meta even this acronym: It occurs to me that the genitive plural always ends in -ων; that vowel has been long ever since PIE. And Smyth says "The accent of the gen. pl. follows that of the gen. sing.", in other words, the genitive plural has that accentuation by analogy because the genitive singular does, but historically we would expect παχέων (pakhéōn) because that form has not in fact undergone QM. So maybe Aeolic fails to undergo the analogical stress shift in the genitive plural. And Quantitative metathesis says that it only happened in Attic-Ionic anyway, so if the genitive singular in Aeolic is πάχηος (as expected without QM), then there would be no reason for the genitive plural to shift its stress analogically. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:26, 18 April 2017 (UTC)
If the genitive singular in Aeolic is πάχηος, then shouldn't we expect the genitive plural to be παχήων (I'm finally starting to learn some Greek, but I'm by no means any kind of expert yet)? --WikiTiki89 22:29, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Just looked it up in Smyth (§268 D.2): The Aeolic genitive singular is πάχεος (pákheos) and genitive plural is παχέων (pakhéōn). But the only way to get {{grc-decl}} to handle that is by brute force. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:37, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
The template should have manual overrides for each form. Would be useful in cases like this. --WikiTiki89 22:41, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
It does, but it's kinds of a PITA having to list all the forms for each word separately. Kind of defeats the purpose of a template. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:45, 19 April 2017 (UTC)
Well if we plan to provide Aeolic declensions frequently, then we should add support for them. To do it once is not much of a PITA. --WikiTiki89 22:48, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Thanks for fixing this, Angr. Where did you find the information about Aeolic declension? I don't see it in § 268 of Smyth’s Greek Grammar. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:04, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

It's in the footnote, § 268 D. The version you linked to apparently omits the footnotes; you should use the version at Perseus. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:20, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
I see it! Great, thanks. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:10, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Ancient Greek accent

I think you're mistaken about the placement of the accent in the imperative of prefixed verbs. It follows the usual rule of going as far back as possible; so with a verb such as ἐκλείπω (ekleípō), it will go on the prefix (ἔκλειπε (ékleipe), not **ἐκλείπε, which in Attic should be **ἐκλεῖπε anyway). True, it couldn't go further than the last syllable of a polysyllabic prefix, but this almost never applies anyway (ἀπόδος (apódos) would be an example). --Barytonesis (talk) 22:20, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

@Barytonesis: I double-checked Smyth and it looks like you're right, but I need to go to bed now, so making corrections will have to wait. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 22:28, 19 April 2017 (UTC)

User:Angr#For cleanup

Have you considered using the PAGESINCAT: function to make it easier for you to monitor all those categories? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:09, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

@I'm so meta even this acronym: I don't know that function. How do you use it? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:23, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Like this. :-)  — I.S.M.E.T.A. 10:13, 22 April 2017 (UTC)
Hm. I'll keep it in mind, but I think it might be more demotivating than motivating. And it wouldn't work on the last page in the list, anyway! :D —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:20, 22 April 2017 (UTC)

Old Norse transliteration

Having just noticed this change of yours, I realized that it might be useful to have a transliteration module for Old Norse that can handle Runic. I was wondering what your proposed character mapping for Runic Old Norse would be. Thanks! —JohnC5 17:52, 24 April 2017 (UTC)

I really don't know enough about it to say. I realize now that I'm not even sure my change is correct; if aʀina is attested in a late inscription written in Younger Futhark, it could have been spelled ᛅᛦᛁᚾᛅ. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:06, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
I just noticed that Module:Runr-translit has a (seeming unused) Old Norse transliteration section. We can use this if you think it is correct. —JohnC5 18:08, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Again, I don't know enough about it to say. It looks okay to me, but I really don't know anything about Younger Futhark. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 18:13, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
Younger Futharks. Do you mean short twig, long twig, Danish, Norwegian, mediaeval manuscript...?
Also, really "aʀina"? I was under the impression that the <ʀ> was used almost exclusively for the nom.sing. ending, which became "-ur" in Icelandic/Faroese, and was transliterating other phonemes in, for example, Anglo-Saxon runes? --Catsidhe (verba, facta) 23:18, 24 April 2017 (UTC)
/z/ certainly occurred word-medially in Proto-Germanic, so why not in Norse? —CodeCat 00:15, 25 April 2017 (UTC)