Wiktionary talk:IPA pronunciation key
- 1 Seeing IPA symbols correctly
- 2 Width of table
- 3 Need jpegs of symbols
- 4 Should include interlanguage links
- 5 some sounds I don't know the spelling for
- 6 missing minimal contrastive pair
- 7 Separate languages
- 8 Mistakes in Dutch examples
- 9 Excellent resource... and recommended changes
- 10 Mistakes in greek examples
- 11 gray cells
- 12 Suggestions
- 13 RFD discussion
Seeing IPA symbols correctly
Can anyone give any help with the settings, or whatever, one has to adjust in order to see the IPA symbols correctly on screen? TIA.
- The symbols are represented correctly on my browser. You need to make sure that your browser is set to reed Unicode (UTF-8). If that doesn't work you need to download the character set. Eclecticology 05:30, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
Width of table
The width of this table needs to be reduced. The primary purpose of this article is to illustrate the use of IPA for the understanding of the English speaker. That makes it sensible to show all English IPA usages that exist. The presence of other languages here should serve that purpose, especially to illustrate sounds that do not exist in English, or are not phonemic in English. The full representation of other languages here should be limited to languages that will significantly contribute to that goal. Most Spanish sounds are easily reproduced by English speakers, so that language does not need full representation to merely illustrate the few problem sounds. Arabic and Hindi, however, present interesting phonetic challenges and should probably be extensively illustrated. In addition to English I would show maybe six columns devoted to specific languages and a wider final column for illustrations in other languages.
Eventually there should be separate pages to illustrate the IPA representations of each language, and how it compares to English sounds. That belongs on some other pages, not here. Eclecticology 05:30, 20 Oct 2003 (UTC)
- Strictly speaking, Spanish and English don't share any consonant sounds, and as a native English speaker, I think it's a bit challenging to pronounce the Spanish v (β). However, for the purposes of an English-language dictionary, I would agree with you. – [[User:Mxn|Minh Nguyễn (talk, blog)]] 02:18, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
- Precisely because Spanish has different consonant sounds from English, it is important to keep Spanish. One major obstacle English speakers face in learning Spanish is the failure to pay attention to these differences. The purpose of the I in IPA is to represent correctly these differences. I recommend deleting other languages containing only sounds already covered. I recommend adding languages with sounds not in English or Spanish and expanding the table vertically to included all their phonemes, languages like Korean, Arabic, Amharic and Georgian. Howard McCay (talk) 20:59, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
Need jpegs of symbols
Can we have jpegs of the symbols so I can make sure my browser and fonts are set correctly? Maybe on a seperate table. --Gbleem 04:40, 25 Mar 2004 (UTC)
I suggest include the interlanguage links. This is, instead of [[él]], use [[:es:él|él]]. We could use a floating yellow tag, to indicate "Spanish/Español" ( in native wiktionary version - english wiktionary - and native word language version - spanish wiktionary-). --Anon
- Some users writes [[él]] ([[:es:él|-]]) to get both a link to the native wiktionary and to the English. By the way, I suppose you talk about the translations tables? And I don't really get the point of the "floating yellow flag" - what would it be used for? \Mike 10:29, 21 Jul 2004 (UTC)
some sounds I don't know the spelling for
Please, can someone mention how do you represent the marked sounds in the words below. This is mostly necessary to describe some Romanian words, though I believe others might need it too.
This is how I would spell them in IPA:
- For constantza I would write [kənˈstæntsə]. [tz] does not occur in English (maybe it does in Romanian). (I won't argue about the 2nd vowel, but it's traditionally transcribed as æ except when transcribing dialect)
- The sound of 'h' in horse is in fact [h] but the 'orse' should be [ɔɹs] (at least for en-us). In en-gb it would be [ɔːs]. ɚ is generally used for the vowel at the end of butter. Nohat 19:40, 4 Oct 2004 (UTC)
missing minimal contrastive pair
There's a missing contrastive phoneme for english amongst the vowels: the shorter æ versus the longer æː. In British and Australian English, at least, these are contrasted in contractions of the names Madolin and Gladys ("Mad", "Glad") against the adjectives for angry and happy ("mad", "glad"). Is this worth adding an extra row for?
It would be much more helpful to readers to figure out pronunciations if we kept separate pages for every language. Cramming so much information together in table form has major limitations in that there's no room make the transcriptions phonemic, which is the best solution in most cases. There would be plenty of room to explain the summarize the most important allophones and dialectal variations as well as clearing up how prosodic features such as tone and word accents should be transcribed.
Karmosin 11:17, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
- The problem is what to call such pages. Other Wiktionaries go with things such as "en.word" or "de:word" but here we don't want to force people to remember a bunch of language codes.
- In the future we hope for a way to show only the languages each user is interested in. But so far we're still too small in the scheme of Wikipedia to be able to ask the developers to implement such things for us.
- In the meantime, others may tell you to have faith for the much prophecied day that "ultimate wiktionary" appears and solves every problem. — Hippietrail 16:59, 6 February 2006 (UTC)
- I'm starting to lose faith in the Ultimate Wiktionary, especially in the concept emerging from nothing. It makes more sense to start from what we have, assessing the varied formats in all Wiktionaries. As to the languages that have en.x and de.x pages (or colon, etc.) what does the page x itself look like? Davilla 12:49, 9 February 2006 (UTC)
- I don't really know what you're referring to by the "xx.word"-things, but the problem certainly seem less complicated to me. All we need is a main pronunciation guide page for linking to individual pronunciation guides. Perhaps this one or maybe something along the lines of Wiktionary Appendix:Pronunciation. Then you just attach a link to the correct language page next to the IPA (or other) transcriptions in the articles. Naming seems to me like the least of our problems.
- Karmosin 08:29, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
- Sorry, I misunderstood. Somehow I thought you were saying we should only have one language per page for all normal entries. Now that I see what you're really talking about I agree with you. — Hippietrail 23:10, 8 February 2006 (UTC)
Mistakes in Dutch examples
I noticed several mistakes in the Dutch examples, so if you don't mind I'm going ahead and edit them... Yngwin 11:36, 19 July 2006 (UTC)
Excellent resource... and recommended changes
First, I must say this is an excellent resource. Yes, it is a bit wide, but I’d rather have it be too wide than not at all. I think this would work very well as an Excel spreadsheet where you could freeze the top row while you scroll down so you can still see the language names. Also you could hide columns you don’t need.
Second, recommended changes:
Add Australian English.
Add rhotic vowels (please) – tar, tare, a tear, turn, tour.
- In Spanish the diphthong in seis is not /e (Alt-618 or little capital i)/ but /ei/. Let me tell you, it makes a big difference when you want to say peine (comb) and you pronounce it like English, and the next thing you know, people think you just asked to use someone’s penis!
- Spanish: Need to add /au/ as in “auto.” The ʊ (handlebar "u" or Alt-650) sound doesn’t exist in Spanish.
- Swedish ɛ (Alt-603) and ɜ (Alt-604): These are both given for the pronunciation of häll. If they’re both correct, I recommend including a footnote 4.
- What’s this: ɤ as in Vietnamese “xương”? It looks like a short upside-down black AIDS ribbon. I thought it was the sound for g in Spanish algo, but I guess that's a tall upside-down black AIDS ribbon. By the way, I vote for more mouse-over names.
- The ɣ (sound for g) as in Spanish “algo” is only pronounced this way in certain countries.
- What about adding ɹ (Alt-633 or upside-down r), which is how Rs are pronounced in English? They’re definitely not the same as the r in Spanish.
Wishful thinking: I wish someone would acknowledge the widespread pronunciation of “dr” (as in "dry") which is not d+r but like j in "jump" + an English r or /ʤr/(Alt 676 + r/). And also “tr” as in “try” in English and “tres” in Costa Rica and Chile. They're not pronounced /tr/ but as a ch + r /ʧr/ (Alt 679 + r). Food for thought. DBlomgren 01:18, 24 October 2006 (UTC)
- I acknowledge that widespread pronunciation. However, it is not /ʧr/ with phonemic slashes, it is IPA(key): [ʧɹ] with phonetic brackets.
- I think that some of these can be taken out, Arabic should go from the vowels section because it only has three vowels, some of which aren't even on this list. I'm not sure if Catalan is different enough from Italian or notable enough to include (why not Lingala or Swahili?). We've also got to face the fact that nobody's going to touch Ukrainian.
- The list does a poor job of indicating which sounds are phonemes and which are contextual allophones. I think that it ought to be limited to just phonemes unless the status as only an allophone is somewhat dubious (like with german ch or Russian ы)
- I'm not so hot on the ordering, which seems pretty nonsensical to me. It doesn't have to be alphabetical, heck Spanish and Japanese could go together. Æµ§œš¹ IPA: [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 19:49, 20 December 2006 (UTC)
Mistakes in greek examples
I noticed some mistakes in the greek examples, so if you don't mind I'm going ahead and edit them... --Lou 22:20, 5 March 2007 (UTC)
I thought a nice idea would be to gray out cells that a language doesn't have so that it's more obvious what needs to be filled. I started it out but I don't know all the details for many of these languages. Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 02:18, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Knowing all I know about phonologies of multiple languages, I only see the tables in this page continuing to expand until they are not only ridiculously wide and tall, but even more sparse than they are now, and that much more difficult to browse due to sheer size of dimensions. I think this page should just cover general IPA descriptions (like with the IPA standard reference charts), and provide a list of links to other pages of pronunciation keys for individual languages. It is conceivable, however, that that because this is the English multilingual Wiktionary, the English IPA guide (including British, Irish, American, Canadian, Australian, etc. articulations) can be provided here, or at least linked to near the top. - Gilgamesh 11:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
- Yes, there are too many languages right now and there's no criterion for exclusion. How should we change this? Æµ§œš¹ [aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi] 21:17, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
- Most of the pages linked here. Omniglot actually helped me memorize the finer nuances of IPA through providing examples for language phonologies I already knew. I am of course not saying that we copy Omniglot's data. It just provides a useful model of inspiration for demonstrating pronunciations of spelling in different languages. A giant monolithic table (without clear criteria for inclusion or exclusion) will inevitably grow too big and without getting any less sparse. Instead of making each language a table column, it would be better to dedicate separate tables for each language. See Wiktionary:About Greek/Pronunciation for an example in development. - Gilgamesh 04:09, 26 November 2007 (UTC)
- That would certainly seem like a more efficient use of Wiktionary's inherent resources. - Gilgamesh 19:13, 29 November 2007 (UTC)