User talk:Vahagn Petrosyan

Your problem

What is your problem with վարական. It is an Armenian word. Stop reverting information that benefits your nation, bureaucrat! --Pilotmucks (talk) 23:59, 4 December 2021 (UTC)

It obviously isn't. Add three citations at Citations:վարական to prove it passes WT:CFI. I will give you candy if you can find just one. Vahag (talk) 00:07, 5 December 2021 (UTC)

Urnayr - Ուռնայր

Probably not related to mainstream etymology, but I didn't find anyone to discuss with. As you know, w:Urnayr is regarded as a king of Caucasian Albania, however, his name is pretty unique and doesn't really mean a thing in Aghwan (at least according to the existing data). It came to my attention that his name in Armenian is written as Ուռնայր, considering ուռն (uṙn) means hammer and այր (ayr) means man, what do you think, could it be an epithet like Hammer Man or entirely Armenian name? --Cavidaga (talk) 11:47, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

@Cavidaga: It is transparently an Armenian formation "Hammer Man", as you suspected and as is already known in Armenology. There are other names formed similarly from այր (ayr). But because it is not attested as the name of other persons, we may be dealing with a nickname of that specific king. I made Ուռնայր (Uṙnayr). Vahag (talk) 21:03, 18 December 2021 (UTC)

Sorry

Vahagn - I'm really sorry for editing in areas I don't know about. I won't do this again. Prahlad balaji (talk) 18:11, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

Hi Prahlad. No problem. Vahag (talk) 18:55, 20 December 2021 (UTC)

How we will see unregistered users

Hi!

You get this message because you are an admin on a Wikimedia wiki.

When someone edits a Wikimedia wiki without being logged in today, we show their IP address. As you may already know, we will not be able to do this in the future. This is a decision by the Wikimedia Foundation Legal department, because norms and regulations for privacy online have changed.

Instead of the IP we will show a masked identity. You as an admin will still be able to access the IP. There will also be a new user right for those who need to see the full IPs of unregistered users to fight vandalism, harassment and spam without being admins. Patrollers will also see part of the IP even without this user right. We are also working on better tools to help.

If you have not seen it before, you can read more on Meta. If you want to make sure you don’t miss technical changes on the Wikimedia wikis, you can subscribe to the weekly technical newsletter.

We have two suggested ways this identity could work. We would appreciate your feedback on which way you think would work best for you and your wiki, now and in the future. You can let us know on the talk page. You can write in your language. The suggestions were posted in October and we will decide after 17 January.

Thank you. /Johan (WMF)

18:14, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

etymology

why did you revert my edit only to repeat it yourself? Ffffrr (talk) 09:45, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

I didn't repeat the part where you replaced {{der}} with {{inh}}. You are not competent to distinguish {{inh}}, {{bor}} and {{learned borrowing}} for Armenian. Please do not do {{der}} and {{etyl}} replacement for Armenian. Vahag (talk) 10:04, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Veroy - վերոյ

Hi, I was wondering if the name of C. Albanian catholicos Viro is related to վերոյ (veroy) as with meaning 'exalted person' or 'aloft man' or is it more likely a form of 𐭅𐭓𐭅𐭃 (wrwd)? --Cavidaga (talk) 13:38, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

@Cavidaga: you made a nice Wikipedia article. I hope the link to Wiktionary will not be removed like it was done in Urnayr. As for the name of the catholicos, it is certainly from Iranian. See now Վիրոյ (Viroy). Vahag (talk) 23:04, 19 January 2022 (UTC)

"սորկա"

Hello there.

I removed two edits on the English and Hindi pages of the word "sugar," on which some editor was claiming that "sugar" is cognate AND synonymous to "Old Armenian սորկա." (See https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=शर्करा&oldid=64417039 and https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=sugar&oldid=64417038)

Are these edits indeed false, or exists there a Grabar word սորկա or another ancient cognate to the modern word sugar? Indeed, "սորկա" would be a close reconstruction of PIE *ḱorkeh₂ (“gravel, boulder”). --Սեաւ Պարտէզ (talk) 00:52, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

No such word exists. How did you find it? Vahag (talk) 15:11, 20 January 2022 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, some user included those words. I included the edit summaries of the inclusion, and the editor is https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Special:Contributions/217.76.14.101, some IP from Yerevan. — This unsigned comment was added by Սեաւ Պարտէզ (talk • contribs).

You see, I hunt ghost words like Van Helsing hunts vampires. And you have been caught adding a ghost word. It is strange a newbie like you would know the place where this other ghost word was buried. Whatever your deal is, know that I keep my wooden stake, garlic and holy water nearby. --Vahag (talk) 18:08, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

Can you say that in English? I only want to know whether սորկա is a real word or not. I do not care about ghost hunting, I care about linguistics--Սեաւ Պարտէզ (talk) 22:23, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

It is not a real word. Vahag (talk) 22:25, 21 January 2022 (UTC)

khorovats

Hey! Could you please make an entry for the Armenian dish khorovats? It looks to me just barbecued meat, but an etymology would be useful... thanks! Br00pVain (talk) 10:20, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

@Br00pVain: Hi Wonderfool. We have խորոված (xorovac). I am not sure the English term is attestable. Google Books results are in italics. Vahag (talk) 16:48, 27 January 2022 (UTC)

Armenian terms borrowed from Ottoman Turkish

Are the Armenian redlinks you add as borrowings from Ottoman Turkish still in use, or did they mostly die out with the anti-Armenian violence, genocide, and Turkification of the 1880s-1930s? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:46, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

I add those mainly from {{R:hy:Ačaṙean:1902}} which deals mostly with the Constantinople dialect. I don't know the current situation of that dialect. User:Pompyxmori is from Polis, he can answer. User:Hovsepig can answer for Standard Western Armenian. Standard Eastern Armenian has been purified, and barely a couple of dozen Turkish borrowings survive. Many Turkish borrowings still exist in Eastern Armenian dialects and colloquial Eastern Armenian, though I don't list those anymore under your Ottoman Turkish entries, as according to the scheme devised by Allahverdi Verdizade we treat the Turkish as spoken after 1500 in Eastern Armenia, Shirvan and Iran as something called "Azerbaijani" (code az). Vahag (talk) 17:44, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

So based on what I know from linguists in Istanbul, the dialect that Adjarian spoke is extinct. The Istanbul Armenians shifted to speaking Standard Western in the mid-20th century. What remains from Adjarian's lect is some common terms that survived into colloquial Western as spoken by people in Istanbul and the diaspora (Lebanon, Syria, etc), such as this word. Hovsepig (talk) 17:51, 11 February 2022 (UTC)

The word "some" underestimates the number of lexical items, it is a sizable lexicon. Phonologically, the dialect is extinct. However, your question is in regards to the lexical content of the dialect. Some phonological features from Ottoman Turkish have remained, that are non-existent in modern Turkish, both exhibited in consonants and in vowels, while the phonological features of the Istanbul-Armenian dialect, commonly referred to as Ramgoren (Ռամկօրէն), used famously by the fishermen in the neighborhood of Kumkapı, even after the Republic era of 1923. Just to note: I am not from Bolis, I'm an Armenian-American, who has acquired Western Armenian (with the Lect "Turkish-Armenian") in the household (As a hobbyist, I'm a creative writer in Western Armenian) (talk) 02:04, 12 February 2022 (UTC)

Edits

Ok I won’t edit it I suppose, we’ll have to wait for something with expertise in Georgian and Old Georgian literature. Ffffrr (talk) 22:36, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. Vahag (talk) 22:55, 18 February 2022 (UTC)

ccs-zan

Why can't I do labels for ccs-zan? For example m+ doesn't work and I can't do text in descs, which is sometimes useful for example in cases like Proto-Georgian-Zan *ṭq̇aw-, where you could do the Zan archetype in desctree instead of Reconstruction notes კვარია (talk) 10:48, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

{{m}} and {{desc}} take only language codes as arguments, whereas "ccs-zan" is a family code, not a language code (e.g. "ira" is the family code for Iranian languages, "ira-pro" is the language code for Proto-Iranian). We can create a language code "ccs-zan-pro" for "Proto-Zan", the hypothetical ancestor of Laz and Mingrelian, like in this tree. Do you want it? Vahag (talk) 10:58, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

I see, but this would create a whole sub-section for it right? Along with categories like "reconstructions" etc.? That might look silly considering I just wanted labeling for when I was editing Proto pages. Basically Proto-Zan would always remain empty in that case. So I'm not sure :D კვარია (talk) 11:09, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Yes, that would create a fully-fledged language with the possibility of reconstructions in it. I didn't create "ccs-zan-pro" when I was making the Kartvelian proto-codes, because I have not encountered Proto-Zan reconstructions. If you don't want the code, the labelling in reconstruction pages has to be done manually. Vahag (talk) 11:31, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

Kiria has Zan reconstructions, or rather I should say, he tries to provides the forms closest to the original. Though I have to say he's a little bit Mingrelian-centric. Also Zan archetypes are sometimes mentioned by Klimov, Fahnrich, Chukhua, but yes usually Proto-Zan is glossed over because their forms are usually self-evident. It's ok, I guess I'll do it manually if need be კვარია (talk) 11:36, 17 March 2022 (UTC)

bezule

More food for you - this time it is bezule. What's the Armenian for this??? Also, if you can, a definition would be useful Notusbutthem (talk) 23:23, 15 April 2022 (UTC)

Hello Wonderfool. I get it that everything east of England is the same Orient for you, but this is an Indian dish, and we have not heard about it in Armenia. Vahag (talk) 08:49, 16 April 2022 (UTC)

Obviously

Obviously, but in the name of laziness a little bit of "clipping" was done. But alright, be it your way. Just one more reason for me to bug you to do my bidding. I'll just have you create Pontic Greek for me. ;) კვარია (talk) 11:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Well, we need to put the best Pontic library this side of the Aegean to use. You can type {{desc|pnt|}} or {{bor|lzz|pnt|}} to summon me (the page will appear in Category:Pontic Greek term requests). Vahag (talk) 11:54, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Having you fix my laziness/screw ups... now I feel like your employer. :) კვარია (talk) 12:31, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

We have been fixing your laziness for 2000 years now. All culture and hard work in the region is from Armenians. See the article I referenced here. Vahag (talk) 12:46, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

I thank God every day that he created Armeno-Abkhazo-Ossetians who tought us *literally* everything! :p კვარია (talk) 12:56, 26 April 2022 (UTC)

Script used for Mariupol Greek

Hi! :-) I noticed you made this revert on water/translations, changing a Mariupol Greek entry from Cyrillic to Greek script. However, while Greek in Greece is usually written in the Greek script, Mariupol Greek has used the Cyrillic script since the 1960s, meaning that, while your revert would've been justified if it were for Standard Greek, it isn't justified for Mariupol Greek, whose entries should be in Cyrillic. Whoop whoop pull up ^{Bitching Betty ⚧️ Averted crashes} 06:57, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I will reply at the Beer Parlour. Vahag (talk) 16:14, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Comment

Perhaps, so as to encourage greater numbers of Armenian contributors to this project, it would be more salient to encourage them and reach out to them rather than commenting nothing other than ‘bad gloss’, (even though I concede I had made a few errors on that entry). Or would you prefer Armenian wiktionary to stay as the Vahagn Petrosyan project? There seems to be virtually no one else editing it, so why not be encouraging of my efforts? Mikeo34 (talk) 21:28, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mikeo34: I am glad that you are interested in Armenian and I am always happy to teach you about formatting, but I cannot teach you Armenian. As a non-native speaker, you make grave errors in definitions (e.g. նեղել, խեռ) and pronunciations (e.g. դաշտանադադար). Please always check your definitions against {{R:hy:ŽHLBB}} and pronunciations against {{R:hy:HUB}}. And please add {{attention|hy|needs checking}} to the entries you create so I can check them. Vahag (talk) 22:18, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

@Mikeo34: Please. Armenian section of the English Wiktionary is the Vahagn Petrosyan project. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 05:16, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Thanks for the resources, I’ll check them out. I didn’t ask you to teach me Armenian or formatting. Remember that wikis are open-source and all editors are on an equal footing. Please don’t creep into the passive-aggressive elitism that is seen all too often on these kinds of websites. Mikeo34 (talk) 06:44, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

We are on an equal footing, but that does not mean you are free to add manifestly incorrect content (I am not talking about formatting or accidental mistakes). As Alaverdi says, the Armenian section is de facto my project but that is not my fault. Newcomers either get bored or are discouraged by my demand to edit correctly (again, not about formatting which is indeed very tricky). I am sorry, but this demand will not change. Armenian is not an orphan's head on which learners can practice their shearing skills. Vahag (talk) 08:29, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

The correct and full idiom is "...is not an orphan's head on which the butcher learns the trade of a barber" Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 15:13, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

There is no butcher in the Armenian version. Vahag (talk) 15:21, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

"Hər bir qəssabın bərbərlik öyrəndiyi bir yetimin başı olmuşuq."[1] - these are the words of a great leader of the permanent revolution. EDIT: I confused the words of the great leader with some reactionary, sorry. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 15:26, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

That quote from the editor of Hraparak is the only one I could find with a butcher. Not common. Vahag (talk) 15:36, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

You seem to be a glass-half empty kind of guy. Most of my entries were correct and you chose to ignore this. I'm not asking for a sticker for correct entries, but if you are going to chide me for mistakes, it seems only fair that my correct entries be acknowledged. I also added three of the most common modern words (սենց, տենց, նենց) which will be useful to learners of modern Armenian. I was amazed these weren't on here already. So your work here is fantastic and far, far better than mine will ever be, but just like the rest of us you are a mere layman and not perfect. You may be the de-facto project lead, but you have absolutely zero jurisdiction over other editors and as such, perhaps you should stick to suggestions rather than demands. Mikeo34 (talk) 08:43, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I feel like I'm stuck in Groundhog Day... Let's see if your contributions improve. Happy editing. Vahag (talk) 09:13, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, and let's see if your conduct improves. A quick perusal of your wider Wiktionary footprint shows that this is not the first time you have tried to come down with an iron fist on other Armenian editors for very trivial matters. It's a shame as your work here is awesome and has helped a lot of people, myself included. Mikeo34 (talk) 09:19, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

I know by experience that for minor languages on Wiktionary it's either iron fist and quality or no fist and no quality. Just look at Albanian. This stayed for 9 years without anyone noticing. Vahag (talk) 09:26, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

բանամ

Thanks for the refinement. The main thing is that together we manage to add a little order, isn't it? Edward Divanyan (talk) 18:02, 24 June 2022 (UTC)

We do. Like Batman and Robin. Vahag (talk) 12:28, 25 June 2022 (UTC)

Corrections

Ah, thank you for correcting me! I was just going off what the Armenian wiki said, and I'm studying Armenian, so no Google Translate here, I promise. But obviously a native speaker would know better, so thank you again. Spacestationtrustfund (talk) 19:32, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Spacestationtrustfund: no problem. But you shouldn't trust Armenian wiki. Vahag (talk) 19:35, 3 July 2022 (UTC)

@Spacestationtrustfund: Also, what's wrong with boosting the Armenian language's presence at the French edition of Wiktionary? --Apisite (talk) 10:05, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Was that intended to be for me? I don't have an issue with the idea, but I don't see why you'd mention it here. Spacestationtrustfund (talk) 11:09, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

ռ vs. ղ

Hi Mr. Petrosyan, do you know any minimal pairs in Armenian between the letters ռ and ղ? I'd like to find any two Armenian words that differ only for the sounds /r/ and /ʁ/. Thank you in advance. 79.30.179.108 18:36, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Hello Mr. IP. Those are very different phonemes. I don't know why you would want minimal pairs of them, but here are some off the top of my head: տառ (taṙ) vs տաղ (taġ); բառ (baṙ) vs բաղ (baġ); բեռ (beṙ) vs բեղ (beġ); մեռա (meṙa) vs մեղա (meġa); առա (aṙa) vs աղա (aġa); ուռի (uṙi) vs ուղի (uġi). Vahag (talk) 18:50, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Thank you very much for your answer! I am Mr. IP from before XD. I asked this question because I found it interesting how both sounds are present in many European languages but they do not contrasts there, i.e. they're felt to be different realizations of the same sound. In Armenian instead they do contrast and it's a nice example for exaplaining the difference between phonemes and allophones. I had been scouring the internet for minimal pairs like these in other languages with the same contrast like Classical Arabic and Nivkh, but I hadn't found anything so far, so thank you again for your help! Etelai (talk) 19:33, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

The Europeans have developed a collective speech impediment. I don't know how could the trill be confused with that ghey guttural sound. When speaking French or German, I always say [r], even though in Armenian we do have a [ʁ]. Vahag (talk) 19:44, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

Surname suffixes

[[Category:Georgian words suffixed with -შვილი]] vs [[Category:Georgian surnames ending with -შვილი]] is really annoying, especially once you start adding [[Category:Georgian surnames ending with -ჭკორი]] when the said surnames aren't always necessarily formed within Georgian. I'm looking for inspiration on Wiktionary, but I'm struggling to think of other languages where surname endings are based on regions. კვარია (talk) 11:08, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

It's not clear what you are asking. If you want an infrastructure for organizing surnames by ending, I don't think one exists on Wiktionary. You can create custom categories on the model of Category:Russian surnames by inflection type (e.g. Category:Georgian surnames by ending); the code is kept at Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lang-specific/ru.

If you want to organize the surnames by language origin, you can do this. Vahag (talk) 12:18, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

No, that's not what a want because it's still a Georgian surname and it shouldn't be relevant that it was formed within Mingrelian language rather than Georgian language. There are also edgecases like double suffixation or Mingrelian/Svan terms suffixed with Georgian suffixes rather than Mingrelian/Svan equivalents. I'm not sure what I'm asking/I want either. Alright, no need to rush. I'll form an opinion on this eventually after editing this topic. კვარია (talk) 13:03, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

طهماسب

Hi Vahag, A colleague in Wikipedia inquired about the etymology of طهماسب, but I couldn't find mich about it. It looks a bit tricky since the Avestan tumaspa suggests the Persian tahm "strong" is a later "corrected" form. I hope you have access to Asatrian's recent book. --Z 08:21, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Hi @ZxxZxxZ. I added the etymology from my resources. Which Asatrian book are you referring to? Vahag (talk) 20:14, 26 August 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, looks great as always. I'll notify the guy in WP. I meant the Etymological Dictionary of Persian by Garnik Asatrian. I never had access to it unfortunately, but I guess it must be very handy. --Z 04:55, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

That dictionary was never published. Vahag (talk) 09:17, 1 September 2022 (UTC)

Oh, that's a bad news. --Z 06:32, 9 September 2022 (UTC)

абазакӏ (abazaḳ) vs авазакӏ (avazaḳ)

Hello, while you pointed to common Aghwan etymology from 𐔰𐔱𐔰𐔵𐔰𐕄 (abazaḳ) for these Udi words, I don't think they are from same sources. According to my field research, абазакӏ (abazaḳ) is in Vartashen and авазакӏ (avazaḳ) is in Nizh dialects. While it is reasonable to assume Aghwan etymology for Vartashen variant, I don't think Nizh variant should be traced to it. ավազակ (avazak) is more appropiate for Nizh. What do you think? Cavidaga (talk) 12:42, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

@Cavidaga: according to the literature which I have now cited at абазакӏ (abazaḳ), the development of b to v in Nizh is regular, therefore you do not need to separate the words. By the way, I do not think Aghwan 𐔰𐔱𐔰𐔵𐔰𐕄 (abazaḳ) is from Armenian. It is rather independently borrowed from the Iranian source of աւազակ (awazak). A b ~ w alternation is common in Iranian and is seen for example in the reflexes of آبزن (âbzan). Vahag (talk) 16:35, 4 September 2022 (UTC)

I have considered an Iranian source too, but I guess there is no written attestations for it. Cavidaga (talk) 08:35, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

That is a typical situation. Middle Iranian languages are not well-attested. Vahag (talk) 12:54, 5 September 2022 (UTC)

ვაზი and ვენაჴი

You state in the Old Georgian entry for ვაზი that ვენაჴი was replaced by the former. That is not accurate: the modern word ვენახი is ubiquitous in modern Georgian colloquial and literary languages and dialects. I really have no idea who would have thought ვენაჴი was 'replaced'. I actually speak Georgian and can confirm this is so, but if you have doubts you should consult any Georgian speaker or do a simple Google search, where you will find hundreds of thousands of hits for ვენახი, indeed more than for ვაზი.Trwier (talk) 12:47, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

It was replaced in the primary sense "vine". ვენახი (venaxi) is now confined to the later extended sense "vineyard". Vahag (talk) 12:51, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Linguists don't use the word 'replace' in this sense. The word 'replaced' is used by linguists to refer to actual lexical replacement, to the loss of one lexical item and a new one added in its place, not to a shift in meaning. For example, 'dog' did not replace 'hound' in English; the latter shifted meaning but was not replaced. This is an analogous situation in Georgian. Trwier (talk) 12:56, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Klimov uses замена (zamena), Gamkrelidze/Ivanov use "displaced". You can amend the wording at ვაზი (vazi) if you don't like it. Vahag (talk) 13:07, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Professional Kartvelologists don't primarily rely on Klimov's work: it has many factual errors of various kinds and he doesn't always seem to understand the mechanisms of Kartvelian sound-correspondences or Lautgesetze. The best reference work is Fähnrich & Sarjveladze or Fähnrich's later German edition. Trwier (talk) 13:26, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

User:კვარია is our main historical Kartvelian editor. He uses all of those sources, including Klimov. Vahag (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

With all due respect, I know many of these Kartvelologists personally: Kevin Tuite, Alice Harris, Tamaz Gamkrelidze (of dear memory), Howard Aronson, Jost Gippert, George Hewitt, Karina Vamling, etc. etc. I myself am one, having been taught by several of these. Actual professionals in the field know which works are truly reliable and which are not. And Klimov's work has real acknowledged flaws. If you doubt me you should contact them. Trwier (talk) 14:00, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

We are aware of the flaws. We use all sources critically. Vahag (talk) 14:08, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

@Trwier: I understand you are upset about the edit history of ჭაჭა; for my part, I meant no harm and simply called you "that guy" because I had no clue who you were. I apologize for the tacky comment I made later about "noting buckets", however it really wasn't about you but about Starostin-Nikolayev. I don't care whether they're classified as one language family or two seperate ones, I simply wish for more rigorous reconstructions for languages of North Caucasus rather than Moscow-school long range reconstructions with all of its ad-hoc sound-correspondences.

Regarding ვაზი and ვენაჴი: a case of imprecise wording which you now fixed. For future references, completely removing the sentence rather than rewording it only made it look like the edit was made in bad faith and we had too many issues with that already with people defacing pages whenever they see "Armenian" or "Persian" on Georgian pages.

As for Klimov, we neither take him as gospel nor rely on him as our only/primary source. We try to balance all sources. კვარია (talk) 19:40, 16 September 2022 (UTC)

Why this rollback?

I was trying to find the etymology of every word in the Armenian national anthem, it took me a while for the word փողփողի, which is not defined and/or explained in the wiktionary. I thought I could at least make the correct link between փողփողի and փայլ to help future inquisitive reader. [2] Nucleos (talk) 11:41, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

@Nucleos: that's an inflected form of փողփողել (pʻoġpʻoġel), already listed in the derived terms. We list only lemmas there. Vahag (talk) 12:05, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Oh i see. Thank you. Nucleos (talk) 12:40, 19 October 2022 (UTC)

Albanian "samar"

If you want to leave Arabic out, fine by me. But Arabic words often find their way through Ottoman Turkish in Albanian and other Balkan languages. ShockedSkater (talk) 11:16, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Ok, but in this case the word is not Arabic. I'm not even sure Greek σαμάρι (samári) exists in Arabic. Vahag (talk) 11:34, 10 November 2022 (UTC)

Lakhsha

May I know what was your reason to delete the Lakhsha page without any consideration to discuss it first? Now I can't even remember what was all the words connected to that term anymore, would you please let the contributor aware first about what's wrong before deleting? I need your explanation. Also, if you don't mind please return the page as before. (Dawikie (talk) 15:36, 15 November 2022 (UTC))

@Dawikie: I was going to drop you a message. You used some online recipe to reconstruct an Old Persian term and its descendants, all wrong. You have no idea how historical linguistics work. Please do not contribute to etymologies and unfamiliar languages. This is a serious project. Vahag (talk) 15:50, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Well no one playing around here, I do it seriously as well. The "noodle stew from Indonesia and Malaysia" description for Laksa is such a strong statement; which contains logical fallacy. Laksa didn't originated from both Indonesia and Malaysia, it is Persian origin. And the terms in languages of former Persian states indicates the historical links. One thing that you should be highlight is about the accuracy of information, the word "Laksa" traced its origin in Persia and English got it from Persian as well, all the word for "noodles" in Indo-European and Indo-Iranian are exactly the same. So how tf you could end up with the non-sense derived from Malay? the word absorbed in English first rather than it is to Malay, so you are the one who doing some non-sense shit rn. You are familiar with Armenian right? the term Լապշա in your language is linked to the Persian as well, if anything Armenia would be much more deserving to be "the origin of Laksa" because it was former Persian territory. Try to be logical and "be serious" as you said. Also, if you wanna be constructive, try not to blocking someone that might be have more knowledge and information than you did. (Laksa Origin is Persia (talk) 16:06, 15 November 2022 (UTC))

I see. So you're either Irman's sockpuppet or not Wiktionary material anyway. I have permanently blocked you. Vahag (talk) 16:25, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

NKVD has spoken. Next! Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 18:58, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

Лес рубят — щепки летят. NKVD is fair. I have only driven away bad faith users and the incurably cretinous. Frankly, this website is too tolerant. It took seven years to block User:Rajkiandris. Who is going to clean up that mess? Vahag (talk) 19:55, 15 November 2022 (UTC)

An Armenian name

In an Ottoman newspaper from 1914 I see an ad for "دوقتور یروانت خلاجیان". Apparently an Armenian doctor. For the surname, I find Kalajian in modern English. What is "یروانت"? Similar to Yerevan, the city name, but for the extra 't'. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 00:39, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

@Vox Sciurorum: Երվանդ (Ervand). Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 01:28, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Right, the name is Yervand, like that of the Turkologist Ervand Sevortyan. The surname is Խալաճյան (Xalačyan) which is probably from قالایجی (kalaycı), but I wonder why is it not spelled etymologically قالایجیان. Armenian surnames are usually adapted to Turkish spelling when written in that language: Նշանյան (Nšanyan) becomes Nişanyan, Քերեսթեճյան (Kʻerestʻečyan) becomes Keresteciyan. Vahag (talk) 12:41, 28 November 2022 (UTC)

Turkish Wikipedia mentions a Yervant Sırmakeşhanlıyan whose name is spelled in Armenian Երուանդ (Eruand). Yervant is a better match for the Ottoman transliteration یروانت. If Wiktionary is to be trusted դ would be t rather than d in the Western dialect. Vox Sciurorum (talk)

It is Western Armenian [jɛɾˈvɑntʰ] as shown in Երվանդ (Ervand). The transliteration is d because it is based on the Old Armenian and Eastern Armenian pronunciation. --Vahag (talk) 16:16, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

հաւան and երկեւան

i was browsing atjarrean and happened to find the entry for ԵՐԿԵՒԱՆ. he explains it as *երկիհաւան, with the same process that made երկերիւր < *երկիհարիւր. it's on page 61–62 if you're interested. 72.111.31.229 05:20, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

@72.111.31.229, you're right, I'm sorry. Please create an account. We are distrustful of IPs. Vahag (talk) 09:42, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Regarding your question in the ա̈ page

@Vahagn Petrosyan I got the Agulis dialect example from this video reading of Tumanyan's «Շունն ու Կատուն» in the Agulis dialect EpeBah (talk) 21:30, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

The video has գի՛դա̈ս, the print edition has գիտամ, you have գի՛դա̈. I have replaced it with a more secure example. Vahag (talk) 21:58, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

Alright, thanks! EpeBah (talk) 00:16, 30 November 2022 (UTC)

այս vs սա

the difference between these two needs to be distinguished, as այս et al. are used as adjectives whereas սա et al. as pronouns in the standard language. how should այս et al.'s entries be labeled in their parts of speech? with "adjective" or "demonstrative"? or perhaps "determiner"? RagingPichu (talk) 21:27, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@RagingPichu: I am notoriously bad with parts of speech. Frankly, I understand only the noun and the verb. Do whatever you think is right. The headers can only be chosen from the list at Wiktionary:Entry_layout#Part_of_speech. Vahag (talk) 21:44, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

will do. thank you for linking to this very useful list RagingPichu (talk) 21:46, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

@RagingPichu, regarding the usage note at էնի (ēni): it is in fact very commonly used for humans, maybe slightly derogatorily. As in, էնի շատ խորամանկ մարդ ա (ēni šat xoramank mard a). Vahag (talk) 21:53, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

this is true, it slipped my mind. it's definitely not as rude as using էսի or, god forbid, էտի. i'll make the necessary edit. RagingPichu (talk) 22:04, 1 December 2022 (UTC)

Laz transcription

Should we create a Laz transcription document with corresponding Laz Latin alphabet letters instead of Georgian Latinization? 

ეველის შკუნი ჰანინეფეშა ავრუფალეფე მულუტეს; ჰუს აჲინა ვარ-მულუნ

evelis şǩuni haninepeşa avrupalepe muluṭes; hus ayina var-mulun

(please add an English translation of this usage example)

so that both example sentences and heads would be both in the Laz Georgian alphabet and the Laz Latin alphabet. Gubazes (talk) 19:38, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

I was sceptical about the Laz Latin alphabet, but having collected Laz books and followed Laz social media I can see that it is actually widely used by the Laz themselves who try to resist assimilation. We should feature it more prominently to make our entries more useful for the Laz and to attract more native editors. But if we replace the standard Caucasological transliteration with the Latin alphabet, comparing the various Kartvelian forms from the etymological point of view will be more difficult. For my purposes, keeping the Laz national consciousness alive is more important so I agree with the switch. But we should also convince @კვარია. Vahag (talk) 20:32, 5 December 2022 (UTC)

Not sure why you'd have to 'convince' me, it's about Laz and the Laz should decide. Also considering that Mkhedruli is being used for Laz, which probably isn't familiar to most Laz in Turkey (read, majority of Laz), using Georgian transliteration module as well seems overkill. And anyhow, that module is overused; it shouldn't be used for Bats as well for instance. კვარია (talk) 09:19, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Well, you're the main editor doing historical Kartvelology. With the new system Laz will stick out among the cognates like a sore thumb. It's a good thing you don't have OCD.

I will make a table like Wiktionary:UDI TR with all the various Latin Laz systems in my books. We need to choose one of them as the standard. Vahag (talk) 13:58, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I don't pay attention to transliteration in Kartvelian. კვარია (talk) 16:37, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

If we will use a standard, I think we should use Fahri Lazoğlu and Wolfgang Feurstein's alphabet. which all the dictionaries use a derivative of. Goishi uses 3 instead of ʒ because it's easier to type, and for ejectives, use " ' " rather than " ̌ ". z* is used for /dz/ because it doesn't fits with the theme of " ̌ " for ejectives. Bucaklişi appears to do something similar, but instead of z* they appear to use ż. For IPA, there are some problems. The best source I've found so far for Laz phonology is from Goishi. He explains as follows:

/i/ : The dorsum of the tongue attaches to the middle palate and anterior palate. The lips do not open much; they are not rounded at all

/e/ : The tongue ridge rises more or less toward the middle. The lips do not open much; they are not rounded at all.

/a/ : The tongue remains completely horizontal. Lips open. The jaws don't have to be wide open, but it makes the pronunciation clearer.

/o/ : The posterior part of the back of the tongue rises more or less towards the posterior palate. The lips are rounded.

/u/ : The posterior part of the back of the tongue approaches the posterior palate. The lips are rounded.

From my experience, especially with preverbs, usually a, o, and u trigger the same change in the preverb. That's why I'm thinking a is a back vowel rather than a central one. For e and o, I'm still not sure if they are mid or mid-low. for r, for which Goishi claims it to be an approximant while Bucaklişi claims it's a tap.

One thing that I can't understand is why Marr uses უ̂ (û) for w, which doesn't exist as an independent phoneme but is an allophone of v. Kartvelian etymological dictionaries like to add glottal stops, which Laz doesn't have in its phoneme inventory. Gubazes (talk) 21:03, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

I too don't see the point of უ̂ (û) which is sometimes used in Mingrelian dictionaries; some words I'd only say with a /w/ (i.e., ხვარხვი (xvarxvi)), but eh... We can just use ვ (v). კვარია (talk) 06:48, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Regarding Laz pronunciation: listening to Laz videos I think your i, e, a, o, u, for example here, are exactly the same as our ի (i), ե (e), ա (a), ո (o), ու (u), which in IPA is probably [i], [e̞], [ɑ], [o̞], [u]. Your r is sometimes [ɾ], sometimes [ɹ]: the same variation is seen in Armenian and Turkish. @Hovsepig may agree to run experiments with Laz audios on Bucaklishi's Instagram page that I linked to determine the exact values. Vahag (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

I can also get you possibly in touch with people who are more into Laz-based linguistics, because I don't know nothing :D Hovsepig (talk) 16:37, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Not knowing anything about Laz has never stopped me from contributing to Laz linguistics :D

Gubazes, don't worry about exact IPA too much. You can create an automatic pronunciation generator like Module:hy-pronunciation. The exact values in it can be corrected later if needed. You can also record Laz words at www.lingualibre.org, which will then be automatically uploaded to Wiktionary by User:DerbethBot. Vahag (talk) 16:57, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

For context for me, what is the main issue though? It seems Wikipedia has at least one possible IPA inventory. It seems Laz is quite under-described, so the PHOIBLE database of IPA inventories reports that different studies report different inventories. And it seems that there are Laz IPA transcriptions on Wiktionary. Is the issue that you guys want to make an automated transcription thingie, like how Armenian has hy-pron? Hovsepig (talk) 17:10, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

It started with Talk:მკორიდა. Now Gubazes wants to know the exact IPA inventory of Laz so he can add correct broad and narrow pronunciations to our Laz entries, either by hand or a module. I think your link to the PHOIBLE solves his problem. Vahag (talk) 17:29, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

Ah, so the main issue with PHOIBLE is that PHOIBLE itself doesn't do the brunt work of arguing for what's the real or best transcription for languages. It simply focuses on collecting pre-existing publications that argue or use some phonemic inventory. So if you look at the link, there's like 6 different possible IPA inventories of Laz (accrued from different sources). This suggests that Laz has a lot of dialectal variation, or that work on Laz is still rather young, thus making it hard to have concrete 100% categorical results. For example, the Wikipedia page has /ɑ/, but the PHOIBLE results have /a/. But, if you guys actually do hear /ɑ/, then I would go with your judgment -- sometimes you find a linguistic article just use /a/ instead of /ɑ/ because it's easier to type (and they don't care about phoneticie things). It doesn't seem like the sources listed in Phoible actually focused on Laz phonetics in particular, but were more like general overviews. One strategy would also be to check the Laz references in this. In general, I would trust your ears a lot because you guys are actually focusing on accurately transcribing what you hear, rather than just write a basic description of the language. Hovsepig (talk) 17:57, 7 December 2022 (UTC)

We can continue at Wiktionary talk:Laz transliteration. --Vahag (talk) 15:07, 11 December 2022 (UTC)

Some squirrel names

An English translation of a Russian paper documenting the local names of the squirrel species Sciurus anomalus has a list of common names: "tritina, tria, tsikvi, tsiku, abkhidkha, kovkasi, skyur, mkrosh, garmzysychan". [3] The squirrel lives in Georgia and Armenia, around the coast of Turkey to Lebanon, and in the mountains of Kurdistan and southwestern Iran. Do you recognize any of these words in any of the regional languages? "Garmzysychan" looks like it has a Turkish suffix. "Abkhidkha" might originally have been more like "abhidha" if the Russian transliteration used "х" to represent /h/. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 15:38, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Stealing the reply from Vahagn, since I was on this page anyway. @Vox Sciurorum: Kartvelian: Georgian თრითინა (tritina), თრია (tria), ციყვი (ciq̇vi), Mingrelian ცოჸუ (coʾu). Armenian: kovkasi skyur, mkrosh. Abkhaz абхидха (abxidxa); гармзы сычан (garmzy syčan) (Kurdish?). Original text: https://imgur.com/a/Bd60HwH კვარია (talk) 16:36, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. I doubt I could have found the original Russian. I know the alphabet but not the language. "Курды по р. Тертеру" means "Kurds in Tartar district [of Azerbaijan]"? According to Wikipedia very few Kurds are found there in recent times. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:34, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

Tartar (river) in Artsakh. The ancestors of many modern "Azerbaijanis" are forcibly assimilated Kurds, including the ancestors of Borat Aliyev, their hereditary dictator. Vahag (talk) 17:54, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Apsaros1921: can you verify if this Abkhaz абхидха (abxidxa) exists? კვარია (talk) 19:02, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

The source of that form is Radde 1899. Could be a distortion of Abkhaz ахәыԥшқа (axʷəpŝka), ах'әыԥшқа (ax̣ʷəpŝka). Vahag (talk) 19:39, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

The squirrel may live in Armenia, but I haven't met one yet. Where all the squirrels at?

These are from Огнев 1940. The Armenian names are the unattestable literary invention Կովկասի սկյուռ (Kovkasi skyuṙ) and the northern dialectal մկռոշ (mkṙoš) which the Armenian sources define as "a kind of red rat that lives on trees"; thanks to Ognev we now know the right species. The last one is the Muslim qırmızı siçan (literally “red mouse”). Vahag (talk) 17:31, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

The squirrels in Armenia live in the mountains in the north, so one would expect a northern dialectal word. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:39, 6 December 2022 (UTC)

@Vox Sciurorum, I understand you are a squirrel specialist. Are there any squirell species apart from Sciurus anomalus living in the Armenian highlands? Vahag (talk) 21:39, 28 January 2023 (UTC)

I noted this discussion and worked on much-needed substantial expansion of the entry for Sciurus. Sciurus vulgaris has a population in the Caucasus western Georgia and adjoining Turkey and Russia that may extend to be in the Armenian highlands, but probably not in great numbers. DCDuring (talk) 00:19, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. Then Armenian dialectal names must usually refer to the Sciurus anomalus. Vahag (talk) 11:56, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Sciurus vulgaris is a recent immigrant and would not have been the origin of the Armenian word. However, I doubt ordinary people would distinguish the two species. They are both small and reddish. Words meaning "the one species of squirrel that lives here" are likely to be generalized. I have a book on the mammals of China. The authors invent names for all the different squirrels, but to a normal Chinese speaker the tree squirrels are all 松鼠 (sōngshǔ, literally “pine tree rat”), originally used for Sciurus vulgaris. English squirrel was originally only Sciurus vulgaris and is commonly applied to several species in North America. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 10:22, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I wonder if we should define dialectal words for "the one species of squirrel that lives here" that were never generalized (because the dialect died out) as simply "squirrel" or "the one species of squirrel". The same applies to ancient languages. Vahag (talk) 10:56, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I think "squirrel" is a good translation in a case like this where you don't know the word except from a dictionary. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 21:49, 9 February 2023 (UTC)

The ears of the two species are conspicuously different. DCDuring (talk) 17:26, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

թողոն

Is estate (“the collective property and liabilities of someone, especially a deceased person”) the word you are looking for? The definition makes it unclear whether the meaning is "all the deceased person's worldly goods" (estate) or only what he left behind at my place when he died (no common word for this). In legal language estates can be very small. In common language estates are valuable. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:47, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

I'm not looking for any word. It's Allahverdi as an IP looking for an English equivalent of a deceased person's physical belongings (not in a legal sense) such as clothing, a watch or a pen. But looking closer at the attestations of թողոն (tʻoġon), it is not limited to physical goods and is used for example for the capital and land stolen from deceased Armenians by Turks under Islamic law, for which estate is a good equivalent. Vahag (talk) 19:25, 18 December 2022 (UTC)

oops

sorry about the TAO parameter, i had no idea it was deprecated. i changed a ton of pages to do it, because i thought it looked more convenient. now, regarding this itself, would it be possible to enlist a bit of some sort to mass-move such tagged words to "Alternative forms", like how every word with եւ was moved to be և for whatever reason? if this isn't conveniently possible, i'll just change it simply whenever i encounter it. RagingPichu (talk) 09:49, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

bot, not bit. RagingPichu (talk) 09:57, 23 December 2022 (UTC)

@RagingPichu, I changed my mind about deprecating TAO=. Template {{desctree}} nowadays automatically picks up these spelling if they are in the ===Alternative forms=== section, like in հալաւ (halaw). I do not want to see these spellings in the descendants section. Please continue moving the TAO spellings to the headword line. PS. "vowend=on" is now unnecessary, don't use it. Vahag (talk) 10:49, 24 December 2022 (UTC)

Angł

Hi Vahag, long time no see. I hope you are well.

So, there was a mountainous village called Anglon (spelled as Angł in Iranica) by Procopius of Caesarea, the site of a major battle, which he said was about 120 stades from "Doubios"[4] (he means Dvin). English-language sources identify the place with Ankes/Angegh/Angel, Dsakhgodn Canton, w:Ayrarat Province, where a few rude locals expelled our sincere Magi. Anglon was the site of the w:Battle of Anglon where the Emperor's invading armies got their asses kicked, so it is quite imperative to know where it was. (contained jokes)

I couldn't find much more in English-language sources, so I wonder if there is a source or gazetteer or something like that in Armenian, where we can find out where Ankes was? There is a more famous fortified ancient city called Angł, in the district "w:Angeghtun", which should be probably distinguished. --Z 11:14, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

One of my sources actually has a map in it, where "Anglon" is located somewhere around here, but the source and its map provides no details. I found a town called Argel nearby in Google Map, which actually features a precipitous rock as described by Procopius. I wonder if we just found it? Though Armenia is full of rocks I guess. But if that's the case, maybe the word Anglon is not related to angł, but argel. --Z 11:50, 30 December 2022 (UTC)

References

@ZxxZxxZ: it would have been nice if you could settle your differences with the empire somewhere outside of Armenia :)

Armenian gazetteers unanimously identify Procopius's Anglon with Old Armenian Անգղ (Angł) located near the headwaters of Aratsani in central Armenia. I believe it is located much further than 120 stades from Dvin, but no one seems to be bothered by the discrepancy. If you would like to challenge the traditional identification, Արգել (Argel), apparently from արգել (argel), is not a good choice due to the form and the recentness of the village. --Vahag (talk) 18:55, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

Actually Armenia and Georgia themselves were part of the problem as they left the deep-rooted Sasanian Zoroastrianism™️ in favor of some new-fashioned Roman faith (still joking)

Thank you for the findings. Yes I guess they thought it is 120 km lol. Still better than nothing as there are major oriental cities like the early Arsacid cities that the scholars have embarassingly little or no idea about their location. Thankfully ancient and medieval Armenia are relatively well documented.

I forgot to add that, I think the map was incorrect. As I understood Procopius' address, which is a quite strange way of describing a location, Anglon was not north of Dvin, as Petersen depicted in his book. I will notify the author, and present the entry to him as well. --Z 21:18, 31 December 2022 (UTC)

No one really left anything :) My name is Zoroastrian, and we still celebrate Vardavar.

You can show him Hewsen's map, sector E4 with Angł (Anglōn). Vahag (talk) 09:38, 1 January 2023 (UTC)

գինի reversion

Could you clarify your reasoning for reverting my change to the etymology section? The text removed was speculative, unsourced, and even then the etymology of one word doesn't seem like the right place to speculate on the etymology of another language. —Leftmostcat (talk) 02:16, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

@Leftmostcat, did you bother to click on *ɣwino- and read the sources there? The etymology is the place where we talk about the ancestor of a given entry; information about a borrowing from that ancestor does very much belong in the etymology section. Vahag (talk) 13:05, 2 January 2023 (UTC)

Another Armenian name

Ad in İkdam, January 1 1906: صوباجی: اوخانس پاپاسیان. Surname appears to be Papasian or Papasyan in English depending on the whim of the transliterator. What is the first name? His shop was on eski zabtiye street in Istanbul. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 20:06, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

Is it a variant of Armenian Հովհաննես (Hovhannes) and Old Armenian Յովհաննէս (Yovhannēs)? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 20:13, 4 January 2023 (UTC)

@Vox Sciurorum: you're right, it is Օհանես Փափազյան (Ōhanes Pʻapʻazyan), the latter probably spelled with an -س- (-s-) due to the etymology from پاپاس (papas). Vahag (talk) 08:59, 5 January 2023 (UTC)

Word for 'friday' in Aghwan

As you already know, previously 𐕒𐕡𐕙𐔱𐔰𐔸 (urbat) was attested as the Aghwan word for Friday, but professor Jost Gippert contacted me, saying the previous reading is no longer tenable and now the correct reading is 𐕗𐔰𐕙𐔰𐕚𐕄𐔴 (ṗarasḳe) or 𐕗𐔰𐕙𐔰𐕚𐕄𐔼 (ṗarasḳi) (last letter is still hard to read). But it will be on the next edition of palimpsests, which should be released towards the end of year. Does Wiktionary allow sources like "to be published"? Cavidaga (talk) 13:29, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

@Cavidaga: I can move 𐕒𐕡𐕙𐔱𐔰𐔸 (urbat) to 𐕗𐔰𐕙𐔰𐕚𐕄𐔴 (ṗarasḳe) or 𐕗𐔰𐕙𐔰𐕚𐕄𐔼 (ṗarasḳi) based on the personal communication to you. Did Gippert say if he derives Udi пӏараскӏи (ṗarasḳi) from it? Vahag (talk) 15:32, 20 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes he constructed the way as Ancient Greek > Old Georgian > Aghwan > Udi. Apparently there are other new words on their way, which I will add as soon as I get the book. Cavidaga (talk) 11:19, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

It would be cool if the native names for Aghwank and Armenia were found among the new words. Vahag (talk) 13:59, 21 January 2023 (UTC)

Sadly, there are no new attestments like that. However, we have new words like 𐔰𐕚𐕗𐔰𐕙𐔴𐔵 (asṗarez) and 𐔱𐔼𐕜𐕒𐕡𐔰𐕎 (biṭuan), which I will add soon. Cavidaga (talk) 09:46, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

New Armenian words in en.wiktionary

Hi! I would like to add some Armenian words in the English Wiktionary but I have no skills in Armenian. Would you mind if I write them here in this discussion and let you add the articles? I am not lazy at all but, as I said, I know (almost) nothing about Armenian and would like to avoid useless mistakes and reverts. Fofofe (talk) 12:51, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Fofofe. Thank you for asking first and for interest in Armenian. If you know (almost) nothing about Armenian, then it will be difficult for you to contribute to the Armenian section of Wiktionary. It is best to leave it to the native speakers. Unfortunately, I am too busy with real-world work to help you. Vahag (talk) 13:09, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Thank you for your answer. No problem. I will try to find a native speaker who has time then. Fofofe (talk) 13:27, 29 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi! I found one who revises my entries prior to submission.

But of course, I will add {{attention|hy|to be checked by a native speaker}} to any new entry. I notice that I would rather delete "Declension" and "Etymology" sections rather than leaving them empty. Fofofe (talk) 17:46, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Like this? հյուրասենյակ Fofofe (talk) 17:52, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi. Yes, do it like that. Vahag (talk) 19:34, 6 February 2023 (UTC)

Hi! Thanks. Fofofe (talk) 18:54, 7 February 2023 (UTC)

Two more Armenian names

In 1889 one could buy a miracle hair growth cream دولشیان اجزاخانه‌سنده – at Dolashian's(?) pharmacy in the Beyazit neighborhood of Istanbul. In later years there was a دوقتور صوجیان who could treat all sorts of social diseases. Something like Sodjian. I am surprised that I don't find social disease on Wiktionary. It is an old euphemism for STD. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:47, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

These Armenian wizards were Dolashian and Sudjian. See Դոլաշյան (Dolašyan) and Սուջյան (Suǰyan). --Vahag (talk) 21:03, 10 February 2023 (UTC)

ბერძენი

Providing no argumentation whatsoever, you designate philologist Elguja Khintibidze as an unreliable source and determine his proposal to be "unserious". You are not an authority on this matter, and one of the scholarly proposals such as the one put forward by Khintibidze has the right to be presented alongside other theories on the page explaining etymology of ბერძენი. AncapOgre (talk) 00:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@AncapOgre, the "scholarly" source you refer to posits a totemic root br meaning "wolf" which is found in the names, ბერძენი (berʒeni), Πελασγοί (Pelasgoí), Վիրք (Virkʻ), Iberia, Britain, France, Persia, Parthia, Phrygia, German, Kurdistan, Greek, Frankfurt, Berlin etc. If you don't see how stupid this is, I suggest you keep away from Wiktionary. You cannot contribute positively. Vahag (talk) 09:10, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Once again - you are not an authority of any kind on this matter. You do not have the right to censor scholars with actual credentials. AncapOgre (talk) 16:27, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes we do. Crackpots are not to be given equal coverage compared to actually trustworthy sources. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 17:23, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

The author's hypothesis regarding the totemic root is completely irrelevant as the actual propoosed etymological explanation stands fully on its own merit, through no other mechanism but simple - and accepted - sound shifts. The author's theory essentially boils down to the suggestion that the voicing of *p*, rhotacism causing *l* to turn into *r*, and a sound shift *sg*->*s*/*z*->*dz* caused the *pelasg* root to eventually sound like *berdz* in Georgian, and that later this *berdz* gave way to Berdzen- stem in modern Georgian.

Not a single proposed sound change is either impossible or unnatural for Georgian language. Furthermore, the old Georgian texts which use terms such as Berdzl and Berdzul in contexts where modern Georgian would use Berdz**n**ul(i) further display that the *n* consonant was not always considered as part of the stem of the word, which is how it would have been if the Pelasgoi hypothesis is true. Such usage of the word "Berdzulai" is even kept in certain dialects to this day. Even more than that, the presence of surnames with the Bers- or Berz- roots (Bersenadze, Bersanadze, Berseladze, Berzenia (Gali-Ochamchire Mingrel last name)), as well as the Mingrelian dialectical pronunciation of the word Berdzen as Berzen, also corresponds with the framework provided by Khintibidze.

So yes, this scholarly theory has more than enough evidence to be presented as one of the theories. It is certainly more academic and verifiable in nature than the utterly unfounded claim that Berdzeni is derived from Brdzeni, which is nothing more than a folk etymology.--AncapOgre (talk) 17:27, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

@Surjection Furthermore, it is quite disappointing how I am accused of edit warring when - even if @Vahagn Petrosyan is correct - all I did was reinstate information that was removed without argumentation or discussion. AncapOgre (talk) 17:35, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Give me other examples of p > b, sg > dz and loss of -a- in Georgian. Do you realize the only thing Πελασγοί (Pelasgoí) and ბერძენი (berʒeni) have in common is the sound -e-? Vahag (talk) 19:39, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

p>b

Latin Patronus resulted in both "პატრონი" (Patroni) and "ბატონი" (Batoni) in Georgian.

"sg" is a very atypical consonant cluster to find within the stem of a word, in Georgian it almost only occurs when -gan suffix is appended to words in genitive case (with its case suffix -is). It's that, or an occasiona loanword. I can, however, provide you with s>z and z>dz sound shifts.

s>z:

"ანგელოზი" (Angelozi) is derived from Greek ἄγγελος (Aŋgelos). In the parts of Chronicles of Kartli written by Juansheri, spellings with both "s" and "z" are used.

Not a full replacement, but a dialectal shift of s>z, which happened to occur in "sg" position and resulted in "zg", can be seen in Volume I of History of Gori, in which Eldar Mamistvalishvili, along with other things, compiled and discussed many documents and deeds from Gori. The text of the documents is provided without change, and one can see the use of "იმიზგან" (Imizgan) as opposed to standard "იმისგან" (Imisgan), in two separate deeds. Pages 186 and 396 in this document. Note - the text is encoded with latin characters and is case-sensitive, so to be able to find words via ctrl+f function you'll have to type the words as "imizgan" and "imisgan".

Another instance of s>z shift (which has not fully replaced the pronunciation with "s") occured specifically in a loanword with "s" in a "sg" position. I am talking about the calque loanword of სგუშონი/სგუშონკა (Sgushoni/Sgushonka) from Russian сгущёнка and the tendency to pronounce it as ზგუშონი/ზგუშონკა (Zgushoni/Zgushonka), but this is a relatively modern (Soviet-era) loanword in itself and is absent from literature.

z>dz:

Several old sources spell the word for "cow" in Georgian as "ზროხა" (Zrokha), whereas in modern Georgian it's "ძროხა" (Dzrokha). This text from 11th century contains several mentions of it.

სიტყვის კონა, The first Georgian dictionary written in the 17th century, also spells the word that way. You can see it in the digital dictionary provided by the Parliamentary Library here, or you can check this scanned version of 1941 print - page 159 of the document.

I haven't read syncope in Georgian so I cannot think of an example of a-dropping off the top of my head, but if that's what it takes to engage in good-faith conversation about this topic, and if that will be the thing that will convince you, I am ready to seek out examples for you.

But even with that in mind, plausible sound shifts are not the same as popular sound shifts. ტ->თ and ფ->ბ are not very common shifts in Georgian, but they both occured in the Georgian word for "warm": ტფილი>თბილი. AncapOgre (talk) 15:07, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

These are late, irrelevant changes. In any case you did not account for the -ძ- (-ʒ-) and the loss of -a-. All we have are two somewhat similar segments ber- and pel- in two ethnonyms, but such accidental similarities can be found infinitely. I recommend you to read this article about this kind of amateur linguistics. Vahag (talk) 07:44, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Ok, so @AncapOgre. Let's start. The changes you gave are all mostly possible: p>b in foreign words, s>z and z>dz are all possible in their own environments because of assimilation and dissimilation which happens a lot in Georgian as far as sound changes go, this can be seen in ტფილი > თბილი where ტ and ფ worked their 'charms' on each other. Medial forms of this word also exist in modern dialects, I for one say თფილი. Anyways, the problem with the analysis you have is two things, in my opinion at least although I am no linguist: the loss of 'g' from the 'dz' before it, and the change l > r, which is very hard to explain in that position (although r > l and l > n does happen). So yeah... at best it's a weird sound change combination and in addition doesn't seem to explain the -en- Georgian got at the end. -Solarkoid (talk) 07:54, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

Oh, I forgot to mention. Syncope happens in the last vowel of the root (mostly -a- in a CVC construction, less likely CVCV like in kveq'ana). This syncope example would be too weird, imo... -Solarkoid (talk) 08:01, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@Solarkoid I would like to begin with responding to the syncope. I believe the example you are giving displays syncope during declension, of which there are many examples in fact. But I do not think that would be the relevant example here, as one would have to find an example of -a- drop in a word within the nominal case itself. That is to say, the drop of the vowel from the stem altogether. Which is what occured in the word ბლარჯი (Blardji) when it was borrowed from Armenian Balardj.

Yes, no full example of sg->dz was provided, but I challenge anyone to provide me with 1 example of t'p'->tb (ტფ->თბ) other than the one in the word თბილი, or the words derived from that very stem.

With regards to -en-, the question I'd like to ask before even making that attempt to explain its presence is - is it even necessary to do that? ბერძლ-მეტყუელი in Conversion of Kartli, ბერძულ in Chronicles of Kartli, ბერძულაი found in Gurian dialect, ბერძული in the 11th century text, clearly show us that ბერძ alone was treated as a stem in Old Georgian and even Middle Georgian. Meaning that whether Berdz- was derived from Pelasg- or from another source, -en- was appended later on anyway. So why try to tie that suffix to the theory that focuses on the potential Pelasg -> Berdz connection?

@Vahagn Petrosyan Can you elaborate regarding the comment you made about me not accounting for -ძ-? I did provide an example of ზ->ძ shift, did I not? If you want something older, then I can point toward Fähnrich & Sardjveladze's reconstruction of Proto-Kartvelian q̇wiz₁- from which they believe Georgian ღვიძლი (ɣviʒli) is descended from. And now, I have also demonstrated -a- drop from the middle of the stem in a borrowed term.

Also, these aren't similar segments in two random and unrelated ethnonyms. Pelasgians are accepted to have been the indigenous population of the Aegean, the very region that the Greeks came to settle, and were recognized as their predecessors by many Ancient Greek writers. This isn't malarkey-talk, there's a very strong and direct relationship between Pelasgians and Greeks.

If someone connected the Summerian concept of deep waters which they called Abzu, later known as Apsu, and was also referred to as Engur, to the Abkhazian people based on Apsua/Abaza similarity, as well as the river Enguri/Ingur, yes that would be building a theory on nothing more than accidental similarities. That's because Sumerians and Akkadians had nothing to do with Abkhaz people. Pelasgians and Greeks are historically connected I'm afraid. AncapOgre (talk) 09:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

@AncapOgre, we have humored you enough. I am not interested in convincing you. The Pelasgian theory is not going to be added to the etymology section. Vahag (talk) 12:12, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

In short, once I satisfied your request and demonstrated examples of all the sound shifts you asked me to, you have decided to just engage in full-blown denial. Very objective and scientific of you. AncapOgre (talk) 13:27, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

I saw from your reply that you do not understand how historical sound laws operate. It is not worthwhile to continue the discussion. And we haven't even touched upon the route of transmission: how would Georgian tribes even know about the Pelasgians? Vahag (talk) 14:42, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

"The same way they knew about Greeks" should suffice, given they lived in the same exact place. AncapOgre (talk) 20:37, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

They knew about the Greeks because the Greeks settled in colonies in Pontus and Colchis, and later the Byzantines conquered Georgia and were the centre of civilization for Georgians. Pelasgians were in the Balkan peninsula. There is no way the Georgians would have developed a unique ethnonym for this faraway people and then transferred it to Greeks. Or do you subscribe to this fake theory about "Ibero-Caucasian"–Pelasgian relations? Vahag (talk) 08:30, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

I subscribe to the theory that an etymological explanation put forward by an academician that bases itself on sound shifts each of which is documented in the language should not be censored by jumped-up powerusers on Wikipedia because they don't like it. AncapOgre (talk) 11:51, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

You are on Wiktionary, not Wikipedia. Vahag (talk) 12:07, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

I'm glad we got to the point where nitpicking over minor details regarding wiki projects is all you can do, it was the expected conclusion of your baseless rhetoric. AncapOgre (talk) 20:26, 1 April 2023 (UTC)

@Vahagn Petrosyan "add a link to this garbage in Further reading otherwise buT muH SoUrCe Wikipedians will keep readding it to the main section" - This is the language you use on wiktionary, and you have the gall to tell others they ought to stay off the webiste. Shame on you, and on all those that tolerate your vandalism. AncapOgre (talk) 13:34, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

If you string together enough unrelated sound changes you can get all kinds of fun things, like ghoti for fish. That doesn't mean you should do that in real etymologies. No one would ever have arrived at this result if they weren't trying to tell a cool story. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:19, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

That is a very nice retort, with the exception that Ghoti has no meaning and no actual ties to Fish other than sounding the same way, and even that is only if you apply one of the many potential pronunciations to it.

Pelasgians are the direct predecessors to Greeks in terms of living in the exact same area, and every single sound change is a fully plausible one for Georgian, so to even attempt comparing this theory to a literal joke is nothing short of being in denial. AncapOgre (talk) 20:41, 23 February 2023 (UTC)

You're the one restoring an etymology by a clearly unreliable source. If it is so plausible, surely it's also found in sources that don't say Iberia, Britain, France, Persia, Parthia, Phrygia, German, Kurdistan, Greek, Frankfurt and Berlin all come from the same word. That doesn't seem to have been your argument anyway until you were called out - before it was just "you have no authority to call this author a crackpot" when anyone who has matched a five minute introductory video on historical linguistics could point that out. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 19:33, 21 February 2023 (UTC)

Refusing to examine an etymological theory that relies on confirmed sound shifts because of author's beliefs about totemic roots is more un-scientific than the belief in totemic roots itself. Newton believed in the occult, yet we still teach calculus. AncapOgre (talk) 15:11, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

That is a completely absurd claim not grounded in reality. Source criticism is one of the pillars of scientific writing. I think we're done here if you cannot see what the issue here is. — SURJECTION ^{/ T / C / L /} 20:38, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

You are literally arguing that if a scholar says something wrong, it's okay to dismiss their other claims even if they're fully in line with what's accepted in the field. It's a shame such an un-scientific opinion is held by anyone, let alone rewarded with the administrative powers. But sure, continue with your ad-hominem attacks. AncapOgre (talk) 21:51, 22 February 2023 (UTC)

Pronunciation of the verbal sequence եի

Hi. I notice (1) {{hy-pron|չըքըսեին}} at չքսեին / (2) {{hy-pron|չըքըսեյինք}} at չքսեինք / (3) {{hy-pron|է(յ)ինք|...}} at էինք. Shouldn't the verbal sequence եի be always pronounced [ɛ'(j)i]? E.g. [t͡ʃʰəkʰəsɛˈ(j)iɾ], [t͡ʃʰəkʰəsɛˈ(j)iŋkʰ], [t͡ʃʰəkʰəsɛˈ(j)ikʰ], [t͡ʃʰəkʰəsɛˈ(j)in] and so on? Fofofe (talk) 22:49, 28 March 2023 (UTC)

It should. I now made the optional glide insertion automatic in the pronunciation module. Vahag (talk) 07:10, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

Many thanks! Fofofe (talk) 13:15, 29 March 2023 (UTC)

2 questions

Hi, I started making automatic transliteration/transcription for Armenian on pl.wikt and I have 2 questions. Source I use says that for historical reasons some proper nouns are pronounced differently, like Էջմիածին is pronounced like Echmiadzin instead of Edzhmiadzin - is it about about all toponyms or just towns/villages? Source also states that ը is not always noted but is pronounced (like in ճշմարտություն). Is there any place where you can check the actual pronunciation of the words in these cases? And is there anything else to keep in mind for transcription? I am not familiar with the language. Sławobóg (talk) 19:05, 30 March 2023 (UTC)

Hi @Sławobóg. The Armenian alphabet is not completely phonetic. Modern Armenian keeps the Old Armenian spellings but frequently adopts the pronunciation that an Old Armenian word naturally acquired in modern dialects as its standard pronunciation. In other words, modern Armenian uses historical orthography. This is by no means limited to toponyms. For example, վարձ (varj) is written as in Old Armenian but pronounced as if it were written վարց (varcʻ) because dz in that position naturally develops into tsʰ in some important dialects. Learned borrowings from Old Armenian like ձորձ (jorj) are pronounced as in Old Armenian because the words do not survive in dialects and do not influence the modern pronunciation. Yet other learned borrowings such as ուղերձ (uġerj) can be pronounced both like a learned borrowing and like a dialectal word because they are used frequently and develop the same features as natural inheritances. There are no rules on which word falls into which category. Only the native speakers know. Some orthoepic dictionaries like {{R:hy:HUB}} are supposed to show the standard pronunciation, but they are outdated, overly prescriptive and often wrong.

For [ə], some sources describe rules for schwa-insertion, but I don't believe they are accurate. Only the native speakers know and even they may disagree. For example, ձեռնպահ (jeṙnpah) is pronounced both as [d͡zɛrənˈpɑh] and [d͡zɛrnəˈpɑh]. I do not know a dictionary that shows schwas.

I hope I have discouraged you sufficiently from creating automatic transcription :) You can copy our Module:Armn-translit automatic transliteration module, which mechanically replaces letters by letters. Vahag (talk) 08:10, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

If the module is an exact copy, they can rely on terms entered or already checked by you, Vahag, right? Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:00, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev: for Module:Armn-translit no checking is needed. It is an automatic conversion tool that overrides manual input. If you mean Module:hy-pronunciation that is used in pronunciation sections, then they can rely on terms entered here on English Wiktionary. I have checked all of them. Vahag (talk) 12:19, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes, that’s what I meant. Eventually Wiktionaries will copy from each other - good and bad stuff, unfortunately. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 12:24, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

The Armenian Wiktionary too has copied our pronunciation module without understanding how it works. They don't override the output manually when needed. Vahag (talk) 12:32, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

Yea, I know it can't be fully automatic, I simply assume that this template will be used by a user who knows the language well and this template will only make it easier to do the transcription. Does the historical pronunciation apply only to the letters բ, գ, դ, ձ and ջ? If so, it can be done by using parameter. The [ə] thing is handled the same way as by the IPA module. Sławobóg (talk) 12:40, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

I haven't paid attention which letters can be pronounced differently. User:Hovsepig has a list of all entries where we have manually overridden the automatic pronunciation. Vahag (talk) 13:20, 31 March 2023 (UTC)

گاماس

@Vahagn Petrosyan Sorry for adding pronunciations other than Iranian, I wasn't aware this was only used in Teheran. Rodrigo5260 (talk) 18:12, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

It's OK. Vahag (talk) 19:38, 8 April 2023 (UTC)

Notability

Hi

I was wondering if you could help me clarify something. I am interested in adding some of the unique entries from [5]https://www.academia.edu/300609/Reconstructing_the_otherwise_unattested_Armenian_dialect_of_Ankara_from_a_17th_century_triglot_manuscript , but I'm not sure if just appearing in one manuscript alone renders them enough notability to be included here․ I'm guessing not, but I'd like to ask for your clarification. If the notability status is not met, could we, for example, add միդք, հիվանտ as dialectal versions/ regional spellings of միտք and հիվանդ respectively without creating whole new entries? As far as I am aware there aren't any other resources on this dialect, but I'll have another look.

Thank you Mikeo34 (talk) 12:51, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

Hi. That is not a notable work, it is not even published. The vote to loosen inclusion criteria for dialectal and obsolete forms did not pass. You cannot create new entries for forms found only in that manuscript. You can add its eye dialect spellings to the ===Alternative forms=== section without linking, like in նապաստակ (napastak) (right column, because the barbarous manuscript does not use dialectological notation). Vahag (talk) 15:08, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

A place called "place"?

News today has fighting on the Armenia-Azerbaijan border at a place called in English Dyg and in Russian Тх. This must be the town Wikipedia calls Tegh / Տեղ. Wiktionary says տեղ (teġ) means place. Is that a good translation of the town's name? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:33, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

It's Տեղ (Teġ). Formally identical with տեղ (teł, “place”) and likely from it, but I would like to see this etymology discussed in some source first before adding it to Wiktionary. There is no etymological dictionary for Armenian toponyms and a search for "place" in scattered articles is unrewarding as you can imagine. The form Dyg is disfigured by Turkish speech, I don't know why you encountered it in English. Vahag (talk) 19:04, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

There are two sources of Dyg in English. Several news stories today quote the defence ministry of Azerbaijan. The other is (I infer) a list of place names and coordinates that computers use to generate pages about places without human intervention. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 20:29, 11 April 2023 (UTC)

I see. These bashi-bozuks promote the distorted forms of Armenian toponyms as a way to lay claim on them. Vahag (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2023 (UTC)

Taşnak

In Armenian, is there a short form of դաշնակցություն (dašnakcʻutʻyun) from which Turkish Taşnak was borrowed? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:43, 17 April 2023 (UTC)

It is from դաշնակ (dašnak), Western Armenian pronunciation. Vahag (talk) 09:00, 18 April 2023 (UTC)

Low-quality and irrelevant?

If you deem my etymology to be low-quality, that's your right, it's merely an educated guess in the case of tsiklon, based on the word being initially coined in English and sounding similar to the German word.

However, I don't understand how it's irrelevant – as far as i know – the custom on Wiktionary is to indicate not only the borrowing, but also where the borrowing is derived from if it has the same sense in those languages. Right? I looked for example at Category:Armenian terms derived from French; I only found terms directly borrowed from French, even though many Russian borrowings are also ultimately of French origin. I'm interested on why that is? Synotia (talk) 16:56, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

The list of Russian borrowings in Armenian that happen to be ultimately of French origin is boring trivia. It's not worth to include such information when the risk of making a mistake is high: what Russian dictionaries blithely mark as "French" or "German" are in reality often from more obscure languages like Polish, Low German or Dutch or are from earlier periods of French or German or are formed within Russian as a calque from European languages. If the proper etymology of European words is not easy, the etymology of Armenian is fiendishly difficult. People who like long etymology chains do not understand how much time, effort and ability it requires to securely take the chain even one member back. That is why for Armenian I usually only give the immediate donor. The rest belongs in the linked page. Vahag (talk) 17:39, 22 April 2023 (UTC)

ՍՍԿԿ?

I saw a picture from the 1980s of what is now called the Karen Demirchyan Complex. In a plaque or banner across the top read ՓԱՌՔ ՍՍԿԿ / СЛАВА ППСС. The first word I get, "glory to". What is ՍՍԿԿ / ППСС? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:43, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

You misread ՍՄԿԿ (SMKK) and КПСС (KPSS) :) Vahag (talk) 17:26, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

I see. I wish I could have a few words with the inventor of the Armenian script. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 17:35, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Wait until you see the notrgir script. These three letters are [6], [7], [8] are three different vowels. Vahag (talk) 18:02, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Like the Chinese claim that 士 (shì) and 土 (tǔ) are different. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 18:20, 25 April 2023 (UTC)

Font-wise, I've had no end of "fun" dealing with the homography of I (capital "ai"), l (lower-case "ell"), and 1 (numeric "one"). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 18:42, 27 April 2023 (UTC)

bureği

A page was created for Laz bureği as a noun without a definition. Do you know enough about Laz to complete it? Is it a borrowing from Ottoman Turkish بورك (börek)? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 12:11, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

I am away from my Laz library. @Gubazes can check it. Vahag (talk) 12:14, 15 May 2023 (UTC)

Vincent?

In 1899 a businessman from Bahçekapı named ونسان قصابیان claimed the country's oldest and most trustworthy ecza business. The surname appears the same as Kasabian. The first name resembles Vincent. Is Vincent Kasabian a plausible name in late Ottoman times? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:13, 28 May 2023 (UTC)

I found him in Armenian sources as Dr. Վէնսան Գասապեան (Vēnsan Gasapean). A plausible name for someone who fell into the Catholic heresy. Vahag (talk) 11:20, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

Thanks. In the advertisement he is merely efendi, not doktor. He invented a thermometer, shown in the ad. I wish the reproduction were clearer. 80/100 degrees (Réaumur and centrigrade scales) is labeled غلیان (galeyan, “boiling”), which makes sense. Somewhere around 45/56 is labeled اسپانیا (İspanya), which does not. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 23:54, 29 May 2023 (UTC)

You can see his thermometer with Armenian markings here. 56°C is ջերմութիւն ի Սպանիա (ǰermutʻiwn i Spania, “temperature in Spain”). 63°C is the temperature in Syria, 50°C in Senegal, 40°C in Constantinople in 1896. I guess these are the maximum reported temperatures. Vahag (talk) 07:11, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Spain never really gets that hot. I see that there were such temperature reports from the 19th century before modern rules for "official" measurements. The ad emphasizes that the thermometer for sale is Türkçe(li). From the same source one can also buy مستخصرات, which is not in dictionaries but must be a plural noun derived from the form X participle of Arabic خ ص ر (ḵ ṣ r). And maden suları, ölçülü bardak, enfes konyaklar, eski mukavva şarablar, and lastik. A very diverse shop. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

The Armenian ad for the thermometer advertises the same things. Vahag (talk) 07:04, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I appreciate the few words of French thrown out like a life preserver to a drowning man. How does the ad translate مستخصرات (in context, انكلیز و فرانسز و ایتالیان مستخصرات طبیه‌سی)? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 08:56, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

You assume I know Turkish and can read the Arabic script. Here is the text in Armenian. See if you can find the match using Google Translate:

Գասապեան դեղավաճառատան մէջ կը ծախուին հետևեալները մեծաքանակ և փոքրաքանակ, ամէն կարգի բժշկական և քիմիական դեղեր, անգլիական, ֆրանսական ու իտալական պատրաստ դեղերու, հանքային ջուրերու, ընտիր քոնեաքներու և հին ու կազդուրիչ գինիներու ամէն տեսակները․ զուտ ձկան իւղեր, լասթիքներ և բժշկական ու վիրաբուժական գործիքներու ճոխ հաւաքածոյներ, անուշահոտ ջուրեր, օճառներ, ակռայի փոշիներ և դեղարաններու յատուկ ապակեայ այլազան պիտոյք, մասնաւորապէս պատրաստուած մեծ և փոքր ընտանեկան դեղարաններ, թարմ պատուաստ, որ ամէն շաբաթ Եւրոպայէն կուգայ, միջատասպան փոշի, օթէոիլիզաթէօռ, տյաղոց սնունդ։

Vahag (talk) 14:05, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

This is the corresponding text: անգլիական, ֆրանսական ու իտալական պատրաստ դեղերու. Turkish (Arabic) müstehsirat tıbbiyesi corresponds to պատրաստ դեղերու (patrast deġeru). Vox Sciurorum (talk) 16:38, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

That means "officinal medicines". Vahag (talk) 16:46, 31 May 2023 (UTC)

I used to live next to an Armenian Catholic church. I did not realize I was supposed to condemn the members as heretics. How does one say papist in Armenian? Vox Sciurorum (talk) 12:27, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

That would be պապամոլ (papamol). Not just Catholics, but all the Chalcedonian diaphysites are heretics, including the followers of the Greek church wrongly called Eastern "Orthodox". The only truly Orthodox churches are the Armenian Apostolic Church and the other eastern miaphysite churches. I promise you as an atheist. Vahag (talk) 12:58, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

All religions are equal, but some are more equal than others. Vox Sciurorum (talk) 19:12, 30 May 2023 (UTC)

Elazığ

Why not use the circumflex? City's official name is with circumflex, as we can see on TDK. It's the same issue with Hakkari and Hakkâri, it should be the same. Moonpulsar (talk) 09:56, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

I reverted because someone deleted the English section without explanation. Do you want to move English Elazığ to Elâzığ? Vahag (talk) 10:09, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Ah, I see. I thought you reverted because of the circumflex. Sorry :D Moonpulsar (talk) 14:49, 2 June 2023 (UTC)

Life saver

Thanks dude! I did noticed that خصم and حسم are different, but you saved me with fixing sooner than me :D Thank you! Moonpulsar (talk) 19:40, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

It's OK, the Arabic script is difficult. Read Fay Freak's essay at WT:AOTA. Vahag (talk) 19:43, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Qarsherskiy

Hi Ya Ali Madadi (talk) 21:29, 14 June 2023 (UTC)

Salam aleykum. Vahag (talk) 15:21, 18 June 2023 (UTC)

ծիրանափող

Hello! What is your source for stating that ծիրանափող is a neologism to replace the turkism դուդուկ? I was under the impression that ծիրանափող is the original name. If this is the case, what is the original name of the instrument? JohnnyMardigian (talk) 12:29, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

The source is me. I am old enough to remember how that fake word appeared. If we were to draw a graph of duduk throughout my life, it'd be something like this: duduk, duduk, duduk, duduk, Jivan Gasparyan in 2000s: "Turks shall not pass, the true name of duduk is tsiranapogh", duduk, duduk, duduk. Vahag (talk) 15:26, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Is the original name of the instrument lost to time then? JohnnyMardigian (talk) 15:47, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

What makes you think it had an original name? Vahag (talk) 16:10, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Well, most sources I have seen state that the duduk has an ancient origin in the Armenian Highlands. Since the Turks only entered the region in the Middle Ages, it must have had a different name before. If the name “duduk” is indeed the original name of the instrument, that would indicate that the instrument appeared much later. JohnnyMardigian (talk) 17:46, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

I don't know anything about the history of the instrument. The sources cited at Wikipedia are not serious. It could be a relatively recent instrument borrowed from Turkics together with the name. Or it could be an ancient instrument whose name was displaced by the borrowing. I don't care, I trace only words. There is not a single attestation of the word ծիրանափող (ciranapʻoġ) before 1991. Vahag (talk) 18:16, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Alright, thank you! Do you happen to know where I could find the first attestation of the word ծիրանափող? You mentioned someone called Jivan Gasparyan earlier, is he the one that created the word? JohnnyMardigian (talk) 18:51, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

Search in books.google.com and www.eanc.net. Djivan Gasparyan is a world-famous duduk-player. He popularized the word ծիրանափող. I don't know who coined it. Vahag (talk) 19:05, 19 June 2023 (UTC)

شلجم or شلغم

Hi, I saw that you used the "شلجم (şelcem)" writing instead of "شلغم (şalğam)" on the شلجم page. May I ask why you preferred that way? Moonpulsar (talk) 17:03, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

şelcem and şalğam are doublets. Both are ultimately from Persian, but şelcem is borrowed via Arabic. We know that because Arabic has no g; it turns g into j. Vahag (talk) 17:15, 21 June 2023 (UTC)

Sorry for butting in.

Letter غ (ḡ) is both a standard and common Arabic letter with the sound /ɣ/. Arabic غ (ḡ) is close to Persian غ, which can be pronounced /ɣ/ or /ɢ/, merged with ق in modern Iranian.

Letter ج (j) is normally /d͡ʒ/ or /ʒ/ and /ɡ/ in Egyptian Arabic or in loanwords.

Both Arabic letters can be used to transliterate a foreign /ɡ/ sound. and ج (j) can also be pronounced /ɡ/ (in any region) in such words. ق (q) is also used for that purpose. Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:59, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

Since Persian غ could have been indeed rendered by Arabic غ (ḡ), we have to assume Arabic شَلْجَم‎ (šaljam) is from Middle Persian šalgam⁠, like Old Armenian շաղգամ (šałgam) and Classical Syriac ܫܠܓܡܐ (šalgamā). The regular reflex of New Persian شلغم (šalğam) is then Arabic شَلْغَم (šalḡam). Vahag (talk) 10:26, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

@Atitarev: Distribution of /ɡ/ for ⟨ج (j)⟩ in Medieval centuries is not identical to current distribution and in detail subject to difficult studies. See for example Connolly, Magdalen M (2019 February 25) “Revisiting the Question of Ğīm from the Perspective of Judaeo-Arabic”, in Journal of Semitic Studies, volume 64, number 1, →DOI, pages 155–183. Historical Persian pronunciation would sound quite foreign to modern Persian speakers with several different sound values, I just discussed with Vahagn on Talk:თალგამი, this /ɢ/ and most of these values trending from Teherani regiolects even as a recently as the late 19th century. Some information on this can be found in the third chapter of Windfuhr, Gernot Ludwig (1979) Persian Grammar. History and State of its Study (Trends in Linguistics. State-of-the-Art Reports; 12)‎^[9], Berlin: De Gruyter, →DOI, →ISBN. Also Prokosch, Erich (2015–2016) “Neupersische Lexikographie seit der Mitte des 17. Jahrhunderts”, in Wiener Zeitschrift für die Kunde des Morgenlandes (in German), volumes 105–106, pages 147–177 and 271–302 notes different transcriptions because of these trends in a centralized country.

If we are consequent, Persian شلغم (šalğam) must be a Northwestern Iranian borrowing like روغن (rowğan) was borrowed already in Middle Persian times as is made explicit on its Proto-Iranian page, and Vahagn is right that the Arabic is borrowed from Middle Persian since the needed Neo-Persian form for the Arabic main-forms شَلْجَم (šaljam) and سَلْجَم (saljam) does not even exist, even though the variant شَلْغَم (šalḡam) can be a later borrowing, from New Persian—it happens that a word is borrowed from Middle Persian into Arabic and then is continuosly borrowed even until New Persian times; borrowing is not strictly punktuell, see for example سَنْبُوسَق (sanbūsaq) with its variants, this even reflects the Middle Persian sound change /k/ → /ɡ/ and then the drop of this ending consonant in New Persian. Fay Freak (talk) 14:53, 22 June 2023 (UTC)

two questions

Hi

I was wondering if you think there's a place in the Armenian verbal paradigms for the colloquial -ուց form of the simultaneous converb to be added, with an according footnote, just like how there already is with the colloquial aorist and imperative forms for example.

Secondly, I can't work out if there is precedence on Wiktionary for nominalised possessives being included in noun declension tables. I've probably named them incorrectly. I'm talking about սեղանինը, կատվինս etc. Such forms are so seldom discussed that it would be nice to see them on here (but I realise that's not necessarily the criteria of inclusion).

Interested to hear your thoughts. Thanks. Mikeo34 (talk) 14:22, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Regarding -ուց: that is just the ablative of the infinitive and is already covered by the declension table of the nominalized infinitive. It is not right to call it a colloquial form of the simultaneous converb.

Regarding forms like սեղանինը, կատվինս, they do qualify for inclusion and ideally should be automatically generated by our declension templates, but I am not interested on working on that right now. Vahag (talk) 14:34, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Thanks, that's helpful. I had only surmised that -ուց could be described as such because I had observed it being used in constructions like "մարդկանց տեսակները փռշտալուց" and "էս ստանոկով աշխատելուց աշխատողները պիտի պաշտպանողական ակնոց հագնեն։", where it seems to have a meaning closer to that of the simultaneous converb than that of the infinitive in ablative? Happy to be corrected. Mikeo34 (talk) 08:53, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

You are right, the infinitive in ablative is now colloquially used in the same function as the simultaneous converb. The forms in -իս are very formal. Vahag (talk) 10:34, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Your favourite Wiktionarians

Who are your favourite Wiktionarians? I mean the ones whose work you admire the most (in quality, quantity, etc.). PUC – 16:00, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

I won't name names, but these are the people working on languages of Oikumene (Western Asia, Europe, North Africa), preferably from the historical perspective. I especially appreciate colleagues with common sense, good faith and sense of humor. Vahag (talk) 18:32, 25 July 2023 (UTC)

Your favourite scholars

Who's your favourite Western Armenian scholar (meaning scholar who studies Armenian and comes from the West, not scholar who studies Western Armenian)? Hübschmann?

And who are the scholars whom you most admire in general? PUC – 10:42, 12 August 2023 (UTC)

It's Hübschmann. Honestly, not much progress has been made since his {{R:xcl:AG}}. Something happened after World War I: people are getting dumber and smaller everywhere. A footnote by a Hübschmann, Brockelmann or Nöldeke contains more scholarship than a whole book by a modern.

The scholar I admire most is of course Acharyan. His high-quality and vast output is equivalent to a century's work of several universities combined. I don't know how it is humanly possible to do what he did. No race has an etymological dictionary comparable to {{R:xcl:HAB}}. Vahag (talk) 14:48, 12 August 2023 (UTC)