User talk:Mellohi!/Reconstructions/Proto-Japonic

Some feedback

Stumbled across this. Thank you for pulling this together. Since this looks like a draft for a Wiktionary:About Proto-Japonic page, I hope you don't mind a little feedback.

Examples

Where possible, adding examples makes things much clearer. For instance, you've included a list of Old Japanese terms with medial /o/, which is very helpful. But then the description of regressive and progressive palatalization has no examples, requiring the reader to already be familiar with this distinction. (I'm familiar with palatalization, but I don't know what regressive vs. progressive would mean here.) Examples for the verb-forming suffixes would also be helpful.

Numerals

There are attested examples of people-counter suffix -ri for more than just one and two. See, for instance, the mitari reading for 三人 at Kotobank, likewise the yatari reading for 八人.

*Uta

The KDJ doesn't link おたはふ to 歌 at all. See the Kotobank entry from the KDJ. It's probably worth mentioning this alternative view.

FWIW, doing a quick survey of the MYS text, I see two instances, book 14 poem 3409, and book 14 poem 3518. Both use the phonetic spelling 於多波布.

*əmə- "to think"

Not necessarily germane, but I find it fascinating that this overlap with "heavy" could mirror English ponder and ponderous and older Latin ponderō.

Cheers! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 19:34, 15 January 2020 (UTC)

Transitivity flipper

Curious if you've encountered anyone exploring the apparent overlap with Korean causative / passive infix -이- (-i-). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 02:20, 10 November 2021 (UTC)

@Eirikr Here's something about it in Francis-Ratte's dissertation, with interesting references for further reading: [1]. –Austronesier (talk) 20:58, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Interesting analysis. I confess some reservations; the end of that section (page 159 per the numbers shown on the bottom of the PDF pages) includes a list of verbs in English all in UPPERCASE, presumably as examples of verbs with cognates in Korea and Japanese, and presumably all having vowel stems. I'm not sure which JA verbs the author intends for some EN verbs, and some JA also are derived from quadrigrade roots.

• ABANDONS — persumably 捨てる (“to discard something, to throw something out”, transitive)? See also intransitive 廃る (sutaru)
• ACCOMPLISHES — presumably 遂げる (togeru, “to finish, to carry through as intended”).

Not attested until the early 900s. I'm curious if this is related to 棘 (toge, “thorn”), 尖る (togaru, “to come to a point; to be pointy or thorny”), 研ぐ (togu, “to sharpen, to hone”), perhaps from a sense development similar to English "to come to the point, to reach a point".

• AVOIDS — presumably 避ける (sakeru, “to avoid”, transitive). See also intransitive 離る (sakaru, “to become distant”).

Daijirin explicitly calls this a cognate with 離く (saku, “to open up a distance between two things; to distance one thing from another; to split two people up”). This verb is evidenced in the Man'yōshū with both the quadrigrade and lower bigrade conjugation patterns. Given the semantics and conjugations, it looks like modern 避ける (sakeru, “to avoid”, transitive) is thus ultimately a derivation from OJP verb saku, as realized as 裂く (saku, “to tear, to rip”, transitive), 割く (saku, “to split”, transitive), 咲く (saku, “to bloom”, intransitive).

• BRANDISHES — ???
• BURNS — Probably 燃える (moeru, “to burn”, intransitive), mentioned by the author. See also transitive / causative 燃やす (moyasu).

Cognate with 萌える (moeru, “to bloom, to bud”), from the idea of growing shoots or flames.

• BURNS WOOD — ???
• CHILL — Presumably 冷める (sameru, “to cool down”, intransitive). See also transitive / causative 冷ます (samasu).

Related to adjective 寒い (samui, “cold”). Cognate with other verbs 覚める (sameru, “to wake”), 醒める (sameru, “to become sober”), 褪める (sameru, “to fade or bleach from age”), with an underlying idea of "some underlying condition resolving over time", be it sleepiness, intoxication, a stain, or being warmer than room temperature.

• CLOUDY — Presumably 曇る (kumoru, “to become cloudy”). Clearly related to noun 雲 (kumo, “cloud”).
• COMES OF AGE — Maybe 老いる (oiru, “to grow old”)? From OJP oyu. Further derivation uncertain.
• CONVEYED — Maybe 伝える (tsutaeru, “to tell, to communicate something”)? See also intransitive 伝う (tsutau, “to travel along, as on the surface of something”).

Possibly related to 蔦 (tsuta, “vine”), 筒 (tsutsu, “pipe, tube; bamboo segment”).

• CULTIVATES — Maybe 耕す (tagayasu, “to plow a field”)? Ultimately a sound shift from 耕す (tagaesu, OJP tagapesu), a compound of 田 + 反す (ta + kaesu, literally “field + turn over”).

Maybe 育てる (sodateru, “to raise, to bring up”)? Ultimately a compound of 巣 + 立てる (su + tateru, literally “nest + to cause to stand up from, to depart from something”).

• DESCENDS — Probably 下がる (sagaru, “to descend, to go down”, intransitive). See also transitive 下げる (sageru).
• DRAGS — ???
• FAILS — ???
• FILLS — Maybe 満たす (mitasu, “to fill something”)? See also intransitive 満たる (mitaru), 満ちる (michiru), 満つ (mitsu).

The mitsu form is from OJP and is quadrigrade. Not sure if this is the verb the author was thinking of.

• GATHERS A CROWD — ???
• HANGS IT — ???
• HELPS — Must be 助ける (sukeru, “to help something or someone”). Related to 救う (sukuu, “to rescue”), as mentioned earlier by the author.

救う (sukuu, “to rescue”) is listed in various works as cognate with 掬う (sukuu, “to scoop something out of something else”). This seems less connected to the idea of "helping". There is also some suggestion of a connection to 梳く (suku, “to comb through”), 鋤く (suku, “to plow through the soil”), 漉く (suku, “to strain the water from paper pulp to make paper”), 空く (suku, “to be empty”), 透く (suku, “to be transparent”), all with an underlying idea of "through". I suspect this suk- is the root, and the modern "help" sense came from the idea of "getting someone through something".

• PASSES BY — Probably 過ぎる (sugiru, “to pass by; to surpass; to exceed; to be too much”, intransitive). See also transitive 過ごす (sugosu)

Cognate with 直ぐ (sugu, “soon; right away; straight by, straight through”). The idea of "through" may suggest a relation to the suk- root above.

• PERISHES — ???
• PUTS IT DOWN — ???
• QUIET — ???
• RECEIVES — Must be 受ける (ukeru, “to receive”, transitive). See also intransitive 受かる (ukaru).
• RISES — Must be 上げる (ageru, “to raise something”, transitive). See also intransitive 上がる (agaru, “to rise”).
• SEES — Must be 見る (miru, “to see something, to look at something”).

Appears to be derived somehow from noun 目 (me, “eye”, also manifesting as ma- in certain older compounds), and related to suppositional / presumptive / volitional suffix む (-mu, “seems like, looks like, probably, let's”).

• SEWS — Must be 縫う (nuu, “to sew something”, transitive). Appears in OJP as nupu. No intransitive counterpart per se, although there is the old passive form 縫わる (nuwaru, “to be sewn”, by extension, “to thread through something figuratively”).
• SHUTS — Presumably 閉める (shimeru, “to close or shut something”, transitive). See also intransitive 閉まる (shimaru).

There is a cluster of words that appear to derive from a root shim-, including 島 (shima, “island”), しまう (shimau, “to put something away”), 染みる (shimiru, “to soak into something; to enter deeply into something”).

• SHUTS IN — ???
• SIDELINES — ???
• SOAKS — Presumably 染みる (shimiru), as mentioned above. Alternatively, might be 浸す (hitasu, “to soak one thing in something else”, transitive). See also intransitive 浸る (hitaru).
• SOAKS THROUGH — Presumably 染みる (shimiru), as mentioned above. Alternatively, might be 浸す (hitasu, “to soak one thing in something else”, transitive). See also intransitive 浸る (hitaru).
• TOSSES IN — Must be 投げる (nageru, “to throw something; to make something be far away”, transitive).

Might be related to 流れる (nagareru, “to flow”, intransitive; OJP nagaru), from the idea of "going far away". If so, probably cognate with 長い (nagai, “long”).

Might also be related to 殴る (naguru, “to hit or beat something; especially, to knock something flat or knock something down”), and 薙ぐ (nagu, “to mow down, to cut down”, transitive); perhaps from a shared idea of "flat", also related to 凪ぐ・和ぐ (nagu, “to become calm, to smooth over, to die down”, intransitive).

Notably, those transitive -eru verbs generally have -aru intransitive counterparts. If this -aru is from the copula, I wonder if we have a root that's actually a nominal derivative?

At any rate, many thanks for the link to the paper -- I will read the rest of this with interest! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:27, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

@Eirikr There is a list of reconstructions plus KO and JA comparanda starting from p. 175 in the thesis, sorted by all-caps English glosses (instead of being sorted by reconstructions, which is how I would have listed them). I don't know really much about the topic. I'm interested in the evidence that has been presented in the recent years for a reformed version of Altaic (Robbeets' "Transeurasian") and its proposed descendant "Proto-Korean-Japonic", but so far I haven't gone much further than putting up a long list of literature that I want to read sometime :) –Austronesier (talk) 08:20, 19 November 2021 (UTC)

@Austronesier, my impression is that Vovin shifted from his view that KO and JA are related, to his current stance that they are unrelated and only similar because of proximity and Sprachbund effects, due to the inability of linguists to show any solid shared vocabulary that can't be attributed to borrowing from each other or from some other source. Admittedly, much of what I've seen of Starostin's or Robbeets' reconstructions leaves much to be desired -- StarLing, for instance, has many terrible Japanese etymologies that fall apart as soon as one seeks corroboration in other sources (particularly those written in Japanese). Consider their entry for Proto-Altaic "sharp point, notch". From this, they derive purported Proto-Japanese àkuàjaì. However, the closest Japanese term I could find that might match is now-obsolete term 距 (agoe, “spur, used to cause horses to move”, older reading agoye), which in turn is apparently a compound of 足 (a, “foot”) + a shift from 蹴え (koye, “kick, kicking”), in turn from 蹴ゆ (koyu, “to kick”).

Given the extreme similarities in structure and grammar between KO and JA, I cannot easily agree that they are wholly unrelated -- but Vovin's criticism seems quite reasonable. I'm curious to see what further research might discover. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 00:59, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Bjarke Frellesvig reconstruction

Where did you find the source for the *-r reconstruction that you mentioned Frellesvig (2021)? Chuterix (talk) 00:43, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

NVM, this is from a chapter Verb verb complex predicates in Old and Middle Japanese.

Source: Bjarke Frellesvig (2021) Verb verb complex predicates in Old and Middle Japanese, →DOI Chuterix (talk) 01:35, 19 November 2022 (UTC)

Numerals

I dug into tosa, and updated the entry. Seems that this 十三 spelling is ateji for what was originally a borrowing from Ainu to sam ("lake side"). I can't find any evidence for any OJP term tosa meaning "thirteen"; for that matter, the morpheme sa meaning "three" is only apparent as a shift from Chinese-derived san.

HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │^{Tala við mig} 17:09, 16 May 2023 (UTC)