Wiktionary:Etymology scriptorium/2017/August

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Reconstruction:Proto-Celtic/eni

@CodeCat are you suggesting that it comes from a different PIE root entirely? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 23:11, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure if we're even talking about a root. However, the etymology you put there was incorrect, it was missing an explanation for the final -i. —CodeCat 23:13, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

So should I use Der instead of Inh? Or is *eni from a word completely unrelated to PIE *h1en? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 23:48, 1 August 2017 (UTC)

Since the preposition triggers nasal mutation in both Goidelic and Brythonic, why is it reconstructed with a final i at all? Shouldn't it just be *en? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:21, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

@Angr, CodeCat Indeed, if it was indeed *eni why do the descendents fail to lenite after the preposition?

@Angr as for "why is it reconstructed with a final i at all?" I think that came from extracting the /i/ from *enigenā and *enistī etc. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 14:50, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Sounds to me like the prefix was *eni- but the preposition was *en. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 14:53, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

salary from salt

It appears that the usual etymology is not as unproblematic as usually thought, how to present this information in our entry? Crom daba (talk) 11:03, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

Well, the blogger says salarium is definitely derived from salarius and sal. The difficulty is explaining why. The entry currently chooses the interpretation preferred by the blogger: wages used to buy salt. (And that's the one that the OED gives.) It would be worth explaining why the other interpretation, wages consisting of salt, is implausible. — Eru·tuon 19:22, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

I added a little bit more. Could use refs for works that give the dubious explanation ("money consisting of salt"). — Eru·tuon 19:36, 2 August 2017 (UTC)

PIE entry *gleh₁i-

@JohnC5, CodeCat could either of you have a look at *gleh₁i-? I cleaned it up and added several entries that cite it as its root. Thanks. --Victar (talk) 23:11, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

It should be moved to *gleh₁y- at the very least. Roots always show sonorants in their consonantal form. There's also a few cases of l where it should be l̥ in the descendants. —CodeCat 23:14, 3 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, moved. Please have at it with the zero-grade l. --Victar (talk) 01:19, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

polony

Self-referencing etymology:

A corruption of Bologna, possibly influenced by polony.

Unclear what it means ... could it mean "possibly influenced by Polony"? Anyway, if anyone knows ... Mihia (talk) 00:10, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Proto-Germanic *ēsaz

Very blatant neuter. Move it? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 14:57, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

Moved. Leasnam (talk) 14:31, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

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*ferhwō I highly suspect is a neuter as well. Move it too? Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 17:09, 4 August 2017 (UTC)

ban

I just added a second etymology to the Dutch entry for ban. The first etymology doesn't seem to fit the current use and it's plural form (bannen) makes no sense to me. You can't say:

We hebben meerdere bannen uitgedeeld.

We dole out several bans.

This makes no sense whatsoever. We'd say bans and that seems incompatible with the first etymology.
My theory is that ban re-entered the Dutch language with the introduction of forum software and multiplayer video games in the 90s which, at the time, would often not be available in Dutch or poorly translated. While forum interfaces are now usually available in Dutch, it seems some words like topic and ban stuck. Even thread didn't die out. Thread is sometimes (somewhat jokingly) translated as draadje. (wire)
So I just added this second etymology, I'm fairly sure about it but I can't back it up. You can refer to http://etymologiebank.nl/trefwoord/ban1 for what I believe to be the first etymology. Anyone who feels like weighing in, please do. W3ird N3rd (talk) 01:43, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Arabic كُرْكُم (kurkum), Tibetan གུར་ཀུམ (gur kum) and Sanskrit कुङ्कुम (kuṅkuma)

What were the paths of transmission? The Sanskrit term is found in w:Sushruta so I imagine it's the original form, so where did the rhotacism happen? Also does it come from Dravidian? Crom daba (talk) 20:56, 7 August 2017 (UTC)

(Cool, something I can help with!) [1] mentions an Akkadian [script needed] (kurkanū) that is "related" to Sanskrit कुङ्कुम (kuṅkuma). Perhaps some common local substrate? Akkadian at least clears up the rhotacism. —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 14:21, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Thank you so much! I guess Tibetan is not from Sanskrit after all. Crom daba (talk) 17:02, 8 August 2017 (UTC)

Two observations: 1) This is a trade item, and names of trade items tend to follow the items themselves along trade routes. This is a south Asian tropical plant that can be grown in milder parts of western Asia, but isn't really happy there, so one would expect the name to have come from the areas it's native to. On the other hand, 2) There's a great deal of overlap between the terms for turmeric and saffron, which are both used for similar purposes (as a dye/food coloring with a similar hue, and as a spice). For instance, IIRC, any reference to "saffron robes" in east Asian countries isn't referring to robes dyed with actual saffron (Crocus sativus), but with turmeric (Curcuma longa), aka Indian saffron. If you look at the entry for Ancient Greek κρόκος (krókos), you'll see that it's tied in to the same network of names. I suspect that whatever the original form was began as the name for one species, and was transferred to the other in areas where the original species didn't grow well (there are some areas that can grow both, but generally it's either one or the other). Chuck Entz (talk) 02:41, 9 August 2017 (UTC)

fardo [IT, PT, ES...]: no trace of فَرْد (fard), lots of traces of فَرْض‏ (farḍ)

I found that the etymology for the three languages in that page derived the word from Arabic فَرْد (fard), which is in every one of its senses unrelated to 'fardo'. I looked it up in the Coromines dictionary and quickly found that thereat was written farḍ (ie, probably somewhere along the chain someone must have transcribed sloppily and ended up with fard).

It is edited now, along with the other common etymological proposal, and I hope you like it more than the old version unsigned comment by User:Gfarnab 13:44, 8 August 2017‎ (UTC)

Etymology of tire1 in English

The 1st etymology of tire in English written in the article seems questionable. The OED states this regarding its etymology:

Old English tēorian ‘fail, come to an end’, also ‘become physically exhausted’, of unknown origin.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/tire

Also, the page for the Proto-Germanic word this article asserts it came from, said the origin is uncertain, with the stated Proto-IE word being qualified with "possibly". Will update the entry to reflect this uncertainty.--Beneficii (talk) 00:24, 11 August 2017 (UTC)

lock and load

Etymology section, especially after this edit, is dozens of times longer than the definitions, and now an encyclopedic field of conflict over etym theories. - Amgine/ ^t·e 21:19, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

I've condensed the etymology. - -sche (discuss) 04:18, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

English Siam

No Southeast Asian intermediate? Wyang (talk) 21:48, 13 August 2017 (UTC)

@Wyang: Added. —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 02:05, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

PIE entry *kes-

@JohnC5, CodeCat could either of you again have a look at the new entry *kes- for me? Thanks! --Victar (talk) 17:57, 14 August 2017 (UTC)

English ventouse

From Middle English? Wyang (talk) 03:00, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Given that the wiki page says the modern instrument was invented in the 1950s, probably not so much. More the point, a Google Book search for ventouse restricted to the 19C doesn't seem to have any hits in English. Lots in French Medical Dictionaries, but when there's something in English, it's always something along the lines of 'The French for cupping-glass is "ventouse."'. I have found only two examples of "the ventouse" in the 19C, and I can't even see one of them. (Maybe someone in another country would have better luck.) The other is in Medical Thermometry and Human Temperature (Edward Séguin, 1876), and even there in the sentence "If the ventouse is partly of glass...", the word is italicised, hinting that it's still considered foreign. --Catsidhe ^{(verba, facta)} 03:22, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks! Wyang (talk) 04:13, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

It is actually attested in Middle English as ventose, ventouse, ventuse (“an instrument for drawing blood or other matter out of the body, a cupping glass”). The modern instrument may have been invented recently, but the word is much older. It's just a case of an old word being applied to a new contraption. Leasnam (talk) 17:59, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Collins actually has it coming into English from Old French. It's fuzzy. It may have been borrowed early and remained under the radar, or it's possible the word fell out of use then was reborrowed again later. In cases where that isn't clear, I am inclined to favour the word lived on. That's just my position though. Leasnam (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

@Leasnam Any English citations between ~1500 and 1850? DTLHS (talk) 04:29, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I was not able to find any in Google Book, no, but that is not necessarily definitive. GBooks has its positives and negatives. The last use in the ME dictionary is from 1475 (a re-use ?). That's only 25 year difference. Can't imagine it could have been forgotten completely in so short a span of time. Leasnam (talk) 12:18, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

When I looked through Google Books, I couldn't find one single cite in English, at all, unless it was in a French/English dictionary, in which case it translating "cupping-glass". And the MED's nearest hit is 'ventuous' adj., "causing flatulence". I can't find any evidence that it was even a Middle English word, but stand to be shown contrary evidence. In any case, the word for the modern medical device, I think we can say safely, was not inherited from Middle English. --Catsidhe ^{(verba, facta)} 04:34, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

You just have to know how to use wildcard characters correctly. The entry is here. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:32, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks all for your replies. Wyang (talk) 09:22, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

امرأة

مر What are the root letters of اِمْرَأَة (imraʔa), if it's of Semitic origin? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 02:58, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

I think I got it, it's {{ar-root|م|ر|ء}} . --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 03:01, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

PIE entry *-r̥

@JohnC5, CodeCat I created an entry for the heteroclitic r/n-stem noun suffix. That OK with you guys? --Victar (talk) 04:27, 16 August 2017 (UTC)

@Victar: Thanks for making this entry. It might be nice to have a usage note about the different declensions. Sorry for the delay; I've been away for a few weeks. —JohnC5 15:59, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

اسم

Derived from Proto-Semitic *šim but what are the root letters? In H. Wehr found under two letters س-م (s-m) with no wāw, yāʾ or hamza? Should that be س-ي-م (s-y-m)? --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 07:31, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Hi, Anatoli. In the verbs سَمَّى (sammā) (form II, فَعَّلَ (faʕʕala)) and أَسْمَى (ʔasmā), it is behaving as if the root is s + m + y/w/ء. But I don't know what linguists consider the root to be. I also don't know if there are any further verbs or other words formed from this root. --Z 12:44, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Z. H. Wehr must have found it difficult to determine as well. s-m-y seems to be the most likely trio. --Anatoli T. ^{(обсудить}/^вклад) 21:34, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Finnish oppilas

Is oppilas really from lapsi? There is no etymology under oppilas, but lapsi lists it as a 'derived' term (not a compound). I could understand lapsi reducing to -las in the nominative (though that doesn't seem characteristic of Finnish), but in the inflection this continues as a typical long-vowel suffix -laa-, with no trace of the /p/. --Hiztegilari (talk) 09:32, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

It seems a bit too fanciful to me, so I've removed it. Does @Tropylium have anything to add? —CodeCat 10:36, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

No such relation precisely, no. It's a modern (19th C.) coinage, not some kind of an old native formation. It could have been motivated as back-formation from the partitive oppilasta (: oppilapsi?), but that would need clear comments to the effect from the source (Lönnrot). --Tropylium (talk) 11:33, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Indeed, the irregularity lasta was the only thing that made it even slightly plausible to me. --Hiztegilari (talk) 12:49, 17 August 2017 (UTC)

Definitely wrong. I corrected the entry. We should probably automatically flag all etymologies provided without sources, at least in exotic languages with only few editors. --Espoo (talk) 10:24, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Hindi इरादतन (irādtan)

Is this from Arabic إِرَادَةً (ʔirādatan), indefinite singular accusative of إِرَادَة (ʔirāda)? —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 21:18, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

That would make sense; it could be an adverbial accusative that we do not have an entry for yet. — Eru·tuon 21:42, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

@Erutuon: K, thanks! I don't have my paper Hindi dictionary on me right now, so I had to ask. —Aryaman ^{(मुझसे बात करो)} 23:09, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

aulic

Is the second etymology from the same Latin source? The senses don't seem similar. DTLHS (talk) 23:34, 18 August 2017 (UTC)

No, you're right. I bet the ultimate source for the second etymology is αὐλός (aulós, “pipe”), with a remarkably different sense from αὐλή (aulḗ, “courtyard”). — Eru·tuon 06:11, 19 August 2017 (UTC)

surfeit

Since the Old French infinitive is incorrectly given, i wonder if its meanings are incorrectly given too.

Étymol. et Hist. 1174-78 sorfeire « augmenter le prix » (Etienne de Fougères, Livre des Manières, éd. R. A. Lodge, 826); 1704 fig. « faire trop valoir » (Trév.). Dér. de faire1*; préf. sur-*; cf. en a. fr. le part. passé subst. sorfait « excès » 1155 (Wace, Brut, éd. I. Arnold, 3905) − xiiies. ds Gdf. et T.-L. et le verbe sorfaire « avoir l'avantage sur » (1160-74 (Chron. Ducs Normandie, éd. C. Fahlin, 33413) − xiiies. ds Gdf. et T.-L. Fréq. abs. littér.: 27. Bbg. Quem. DDL t. 30. http://www.cnrtl.fr/definition/surfait

Please explain to me how dʰh₁ can evolve into f. https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Reconstruction:Proto-Italic/fakiō

--Espoo (talk) 06:31, 20 August 2017 (UTC)

Initial PIE dʰ normally turned into F in Latin. dʰ > θ > f. The laryngeal became the short /a/ in facio. Anti-Gamz Dust (There's Hillcrest!) 02:36, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Ἐρυθραία

Something seems to be missing from the etymology: ἐρῠθρός (eruthrós) +‎ -ῐ́ᾱ (-íā) should give **Ἐρῠθρῐ́ᾱ (**Eruthríā) rather than Ἐρῠθραίᾱ (Eruthraíā). --WikiTiki89 20:05, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

PIE 'sun'

Why do we reconstruct *sóh₂wl̥ and not *séh₂wl̥? At least Greek and Baltic both point to *ā < *eh₂. Checking a few sources shows generally an e-grade in the literature, too. --Tropylium (talk) 21:23, 22 August 2017 (UTC)

Reconstruction:Proto-Germanic/krāwō

The Germanic reconstruction contains w, but this does not show up in the descendants. Instead, there's a mixture of w, j and h, which points to an original hiatus (compare *sēaną). Moreover, there's a long ā, which was a very rare phoneme in Proto-Germanic. It's much more likely to be ē. So this should probably be renamed to *krēō or *krēǭ. —CodeCat 15:41, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I think yes. The associated verb would undoubtedly be *krēaną, so the adjusted form fits nicely ! Leasnam (talk) 18:24, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

I think *krēǭ as well...it's a weak fem in OSX, a weak fem & weak masc in OE, yet strong fem in GOH. HOWEVER, there also appears a weak fem in GMH, which might bend back to an unrecorded GOH term (?) Leasnam (talk) 18:25, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

Proto-Germanic *dīsiz

How can this be from PIE *dʰēs- (more likely *dʰeh₁s-)? KarikaSlayer (talk) 21:47, 23 August 2017 (UTC)

It can't quite simply. Leasnam has a history of adding weird etymologies to Germanic terms. —Rua (mew) 21:50, 23 August 2017 (UTC)