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Back to User talk:Flyax

Hello, and welcome to Wiktionary. Thank you for your contributions. I hope you like the place and decide to stay. Here are a few good links for newcomers:

I hope you enjoy editing here and being a Wiktionarian! By the way, you can sign your name on Talk (discussion) and vote pages using four tildes, like this: ~~~~, which automatically produces your name and the current date. If you have any questions, see the help pages, add a question to the beer parlour or ask me on my Talk page. Again, welcome! Also, if you're interested, there's a policy page (currently under construction) specifically about Greek stuff at Wiktionary:About Greek. Atelaes 21:20, 21 February 2007 (UTC)


Greek derivations[edit]

Most of the etymologies which you're adding should be of Ancient Greek derivation, not of Greek derivation. On Wiktionary, Greek means modern Greek. Also, there is a template ({{AGr.}}) which you can substitute for the language name, and will also add the page to Category:Ancient Greek derivations. Also, keep in mind that Ancient Greek has breathing marks at the beginning of every word. You may want to double-check some of your etymologies as well, the Ancient Greek word which the English word comes from may not be the same as the modern variant. For example, see what I've done to chthonic. Thanks. Atelaes 22:55, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

I am sorry I caused you all that trouble. However, there must be hundreds of words to be transfered from 'Greek' category to 'Ancient Greek'. Are you sure it is worthwhile to do it? And I wonder, how many English words are derived from modern Greek? --Flyax 14:04, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Don't worry about any trouble caused, there are very few people who understand the distinction between Greek and Ancient Greek. For a lot of people who do etymologies, I find it can be rather unintuituve. And I do think it is worth it to go through the Greek derivationans and change them. Firt, for consistency with our Ancient Greek and Greek languages, which have hundreds of entries. Second, because a lot of them need work anyway (a lot of people don't even know how to use Greek characters, and so pages have Romanizations). As for how many English words derive from modern Greek, I couldn't even guess, but I have to imagine very few, at least in comparison to ancient. Atelaes 18:20, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Aorist of είμαι[edit]

Hi there,

Not really a Wiktionary issue, but as you are a native Greek speaker and have contributed recently enough to see this, I thought you might be able to help me.

I'm learning (modern) Greek and am getting on very well with it - well enough to increase my Babel el-1 to el-2 at some point soon, I think. I'm working on the simple past (aorist) at the moment but one thing is bothering me: what are the plural forms of ήμουν? I've looked in three places and I've found three different answers.

My text book (which, alas, contains quite a few errors, I've noticed) has ήμασταν, ήσασταν, ήταν

Logos Translations Universal Conjugator (a very useful online resource) has the completely different forms ήμαστε, ήσαστε, ήσαν, but surely if that were correct, the first- and second-person plurals would be identical in sound to the present είμαστε and είσαστε (although είστε is probably more common than είσαστε).

My dictionary (Oxford Paperback Greek Dictionary) has something else again (I don't have it with me at the moment to be able to tell you).

So which is correct? Or is it one of the many words in Greek that have more than one form (such as σκύλος/σκυλί and the names of the months)?

I have lots of other questions too (such as when to use και and when to use κι; when to use εννέα and when to use εννιά), but I won't list them all here (one is more than enough for now).

Please reply on my user page. Thanks very much for your help. — Paul G 08:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Ευχαριστώ πολύ. That makes sense. My text book is the most up to date of all the sources I looked at, so it has the right (and less formal) forms. — Paul G 15:52, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

instill / instil[edit]

Thank you. I did not know that. --Connel MacKenzie 20:01, 29 July 2007 (UTC)


The entries around καρβονικόν are in flux as the format of katharevousa entries is being discussed at Wiktionary talk:About Greek#Katharevousa - I was/am going to mention the talk at the BP. If you know of any good examples from katharevousa it would be good to hear! —Saltmarsh 05:49, 30 July 2007 (UTC)

romanization entries[edit]

I saw your cmment on πνεῦμα. So far we don't have entries for romanizations, but there is not yet a policy. If we can put off a decision, I'd rather wait, as it will probably be hard. Otherwise, do you want to open a new topic at WT:AEL on this? ArielGlenn 04:19, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Err... the talk page, of course. ArielGlenn 04:21, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
Excuse me butting in! : Wiktionary:About_Greek#Romanisation says The creation of Wiktionary entries for all such romanised forms of all Greek words is not desirable, even when they exist in language textbooks or dictionaries. But it is important to register the existence of the common romanised forms of Greek words which appear in works of literature and to create entries in Wiktionary. But this is not set in stone! —Saltmarsh 06:42, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
A fine policy in my opinion. Making it stick may be something else again. (It's still draft at this point.) And you're not butting in. ArielGlenn 10:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I am strongly opposed to creating romanisation entries. Firstly, there is not a standard way of romanizing. Is it pnevma -as it's pronounced- or should it be pneuma -as it's written. And why άγγελος is angelos? Most Greek people pronounce just agelos, without an n, so angelos does not depict either the writing or the pronunciation of the word. Therefor it wouldn't be wise to establish such an ambiguity as an entry. Secondly, excuse me for being "hyper"sensitive in matters concerning my own language. If you know what I mean! :-) --Flyax 07:41, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Συμφωνώ απολύτως... αλλά έχω την εντύπωση ότι αρκετοί άλλοι εδώ θα έχουν την αντίθετη άποψη. Γι' αυτό λέω να αναβάλουμε τη δημόσια συζήτηση προς το παρόν και να προχωρήσουμε με την τακτική που παρακολουθούσαμε μέχρι τώρα (ή τουλάχιστον την παρακολουθώ εγώ), δηλαδή, όταν βρίσκουμε τέτοιες σελίδες της βάζουμε αμέσως στην ουρά για γρήγορη διαγραφή ({{delete}}) χωρίς άλλη σκέψη. Και κάποια μέρα, όταν έρθει η ώρα της απόφασης, θα εξηγήσουμε "that's how it's always been" :-) Τι λες εσύ; ArielGlenn 10:23, 3 August 2007 (UTC)
First of all let me say that the last thing that I (and hopefully we) want to do is to upset a native Greek speaker - I have been learning your language for 3 years and am very ignorant about speaking it! So I do understand what you mean. Although the romanisation looks as though it is supposed to help with pronunciation it is only a transliteration (that is letter for letter or pairs of letters) - the pronunciation should go as a separate heading (see και and όπλο) and with we certainly do need help! I, for one, am unqualified.
The romanisation is done using the table at Wiktionary:About_Greek#Romanisation, it should be repeatable ie not open to interpretation. The table was assembled from the sources listed there. If you think some of these are wrong please say! Meanwhile I have printed off ArielGlenn's text - it'll give me useful practice in translation - so you can see that I need help from you more than the other way around :) —Saltmarsh 10:46, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

I think that we agree about the basic: the policy not to create romanised entries. About the accuracy of romanisation, there is not much we can do. Romanisation can't be 100% phonetically correct, or it won't be any more useful to beginners; it is only a rough compromise. However, I suggest that οι and όι, οϊ must not be represented by the same combination of letters. όι and οϊ should correspond to . The same for έι, έη, εϊ, άι, άη, αϊ etc.
As for the phonetic transcription of words, you can check the Greek Wiktionary, at least for the words of which the pronunciation has been completed (eg el:άγγελος.
A last remark for Saltmarsh. You have done a remarkable work here, especially for someone who has been learning Greek for 3 years. I have been studying English for decades and still I feel uncertain most of the times. --Flyax 12:49, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Can we discuss particular transcription values at Wiktionary_talk:About_Greek/Transliteration ? —Saltmarsh 14:55, 3 August 2007 (UTC)

Transliteration (again)[edit]

I give below a couple of supporting statements from the Beer Parlour about this subject in the hope that, if you disagree with what I have said above, you can accept that there are good reasons. A while ago I too felt that transliterations should be phonetic.

from Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/October-December_05#Romanization
Romanization is just that: a (usually systematic) respelling of a word in Roman characters, for the benefit of those who cannot read foreign alphabets (either from lack of skill or lack of fonts). It is no phoneticization; the spelling is no more meant to accurately indicate the pronunciation than the spelling of English 'eighth' or 'have' indicate the pronunciation of the words they represent. If we weren't a dictionary, we might worry about this, but we are a dictionary and all our entries have room for ===Pronunciation=== sections. —Muke Tever 20:31, 3 October 2005 (UTC)
from Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/2007/March#63296644408
Sorry about this - can I try again? I should have asked two direct(ish) questions, with specific reference to modern Greek:
1. "there should be a transliteration for all occurrences of words in non-latin scripts in inflection lines and in Translation sections". This will be un-wikified and provide a clear guide to pronunciation?
2. A user hears a Greek "No!" (όχι). Is s/he to be able to seach for ocki, ochi, ohi and any other variation in order to reach όχι ? (Which is what I felt the guidance was saying)
Saltmarsh 15:48, 14 February 2007 (UTC)
(1) Mostly yes. For entries in non-Roman scripts, a non-wikified transliteration should be provided in the inflection line. For translations in non-Roman scripts included in a Translations table, there should be a non-wikified transliteration included. But there is no guarantee it will provide a clear guide to pronunciation. The transliteration should follow a consistent standard interpreting the spelling mainly into Roman letters, and it therefore may not accurately reflect the pronunciation. This will vary according to the language being transliterated.
(2) This kind of search may be done using a text search feature. It does not require that we have an article for any transliterated spelling. Just as we do not have entries for every possible "phonetic" spelling of English words, we do not need them for other languages. --EncycloPetey 01:13, 15 February 2007 (UTC)

Saltmarsh 06:32, 4 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the template help[edit]

I appreciate your contribution to Category:Ancient Greek declension templates. It is very helpful. ^_^ But the decision of whether to use Template:grc-decl-1st-M-eta-pax or Template:grc-decl-1st-M-eta-pax-α-voc for each noun is unclear in the context of the sources I've been using. I am not appropriately qualified to guess this. Could you help me by occasionally correcting my template placements with Template:grc-decl-1st-M-eta-pax where Template:grc-decl-1st-M-eta-pax-α-voc is needed instead? - Gilgamesh 09:35, 5 August 2007 (UTC)


Please do not leave this template in pages. You may subst:PAGENAME, however. --EncycloPetey 00:47, 7 August 2007 (UTC)

Greek nouns & templates[edit]

Ευχαριστώ! for helping with the nouns' inflections. But (sorry about the but) PLEASE can you put something in the 'edit summary' box at the base of the edit window. When looking back at the page's 'history' this helps other editors to see what has been happening.

Please, would you mind helping my Greek! My Greek grammar book (Τριανταφυλλίδης) says that "νους" has no plural form (same as "ρους") - can you not say (plural) "minds" in Greek? or would you use "μυαλά"? Is Τριανταφυλλίδης was written in 1948 (although my Englist translation is 2004), has Greek moved on since then? My Holton, Mackridge and Philippaki sometimes differs from Τριανταφυλλίδης. thanks —Saltmarsh 06:13, 7 August 2007 (UTC)


In your view does the absence of the f-gen-pl apply to the whole declension? And does the same apply to the oxytone declension following "παρών"? The footnote in my grammar (Holton et al) says: The gen. pl. of the feminine is sometimes found with what is properly the masc. ending -όντων (considered incorrect by grammarians). Does it apply to all members of the declension, or just a few? I think that you will need to say what we should do - the nuances of this are totally beyond me! So you must pull me up when I go wrong.
Saltmarsh 05:59, 8 August 2007 (UTC)


Help! The word δοσοληψíα f (=transaction) is to be found in my Greek dictionary (Kriara) and my English-Greek dictionaries - BUT Greek Google does not find it! What sort of word is this? Am I misspelling it? cheers —Saltmarsh 14:56, 22 August 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for spotting that! Yes - it was the accented roman i and not an iota! —Saltmarsh 11:38, 23 August 2007 (UTC)


Could you please check the usage note I added. I didn't even get the sigmas right on my first attempt ;-) I suspect the ancient Greek might be slightly different? Don't know. Do we have an entry? Robert Ullmann 12:54, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Ah, very good! Tx, Robert Ullmann 13:20, 28 August 2007 (UTC)

Classical pronunciation[edit]

Wiktionary:Ancient Greek Romanization and Pronunciation—This is the Classical Greek pronunciation guide I wrote weeks ago and most recently revised again as per your recommendations. - Gilgamesh 08:21, 4 September 2007 (UTC)

Modern ζ[edit]

I wonder—do you know of any modern Attic-derived Greek dialects that pronounce ζ as [zz], a geminated consonant? I know that since peninsular Greek does not geminate consonants, it doesn't geminate that either. But what about Cypriot, Dodecanesian or other dialects? Do any of them pronounce it as a double consonant as Koine did, at least between vowels? - Gilgamesh 04:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)

And another question. It's Φλύαξ, right? Third declension? Masculine or feminine? Is the stem Φλύακ-, Φλύαγ-, Φλύαχ-, Φλύακτ-, Φλύαγδ-, Φλύαχθ-, what? Bored curiosity. :3 - Gilgamesh 04:09, 23 September 2007 (UTC)


Since Ἰούλιος is from Latin Julius, the first ι is etymologically a [j], isn't it? And if I recall from the text Ariel Glenn gave me, an educated speaker in their best linguistic behavior tries to be mindful of the etymology of a word. So why not the tokens j|ou'|l|i|o|s for Ἰούλιος I set it up so that the Classical period pronunciation is [i], as there is no isolated consonant [j] whatsoever in that period. But didn't Koine become more flexible? - Gilgamesh 10:54, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Believe me, it's i-u-li-os! There is also a rare alternative form (Γιούλης), but it has nothing to do with the Latin origin of the word. Please read in ch. 1.4.1 about the unstressed ι before vowels. --flyax 11:04, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

Okay, I've reread the section. So, the sticky issue is "learned origin"? Then please give me insights on which loanwords are learned that particular way. Edit the notes template at Template:grc-ipatok-j notes. You can also click the toolbox's "What links here" to see the other templates that link to the notes. - Gilgamesh 19:50, 10 October 2007 (UTC)

mv Genitive before Accusative[edit]

Please carry on now that you have started, but you might have realised that it was arranged that way deliberately (and perhaps asked?). I followed the layout in the current most authoritive Greek grammar (Holton, Mackridge and Phillippaki-Warburton). But I see that Latin nouns in Wiktionary now follow your practice (It always used to be (Nom, Acc, Gen, Dat, Abl)) - so this should be taken as a feeble protest. —SaltmarshTalk 14:58, 16 October 2007 (UTC)

Yes - I was assuming good faith :). But, as I said above (as designer of the original template and most of the rest) - it would be nice if the matter had been discussed first! —SaltmarshTalk 06:13, 17 October 2007 (UTC)

Modern Greek assimilation question[edit]

Asking you directly out of more personal curiosity than anything. In Modern Greek, does [k+ʝ] invalid IPA characters (+) always assimilate to [c]? Or is the cluster [cʝ] possible? I know that [cç] is possible from κχ. Similarly, do [l+ʝ] invalid IPA characters (+) and [n+ʝ] invalid IPA characters (+) always assimilate to [ʎ] and [ɲ], or are [lʝ] and [nʝ] clusters possible? - Gilgamesh 11:50, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The cluster [kʝ] is possible in words like εκγύμναση [ekʝ'imnasi] invalid IPA characters ('), replace ' with ˈ as [lʝ] is to be found in Αλγέρι [alʝ'eri] invalid IPA characters ('), replace ' with ˈ and [ŋʝ] in εγγεγραμμένος [eŋʝeɣram'enos] invalid IPA characters ('), replace ' with ˈ --flyax 13:22, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, that's what I thought. I've been developing an original transcription system for Modern Greek. It's not encyclopedia material, so it's in a personal Wikipedia user page. User:Gilgamesh/Modern Greek transcription. I've been having a lot of fun with it. ^_^ - Gilgamesh 13:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I forgot something: the cluster [cç] is not possible. See εκχιονιστήρας [eionist'iras] invalid IPA characters ('), replace ' with ˈ --flyax 14:59, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Really. o.o Then how would you pronounce the sequence /κχε/? - Gilgamesh 15:08, 5 November 2007 (UTC) Never mind. - Gilgamesh 15:09, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

where did we end up on pronunciation?[edit]

I sort of forget between the /o/ and /ɔ/ and /o̞/ what we decided for o in the end (as well as a, e actually). Can you remind me? I just noticed some entries going in with the suprasegmentals from other folks (οφθαλμός) but your latest ones seem to use /o/ (βροχή), and I'm still using /ɔ/ on elwikt, though maybe that's a separate issue. Thanks... ArielGlenn 05:22, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If I recall, we debated on the issue before, and I remember pointing out that modern ε and ο are more pure mid vowels (rather than open-mid or close-mid), and that modern α is a more pure central open vowel (rather than front open). Then someone (I forgot whom) brought up the IPA recommendation that, when there is no phonemic distinction between front open and central open vowel (and no known language makes any such distinction), that it is encouraged simply to use [a] for central open instead of [a̙]. And then I realized...even though modern Greek ε and ο are [e̞] and [o̞], the same recommendation applies as there is no phonemic distinction between open-mid or close-mid. In these situations the archetypal symbols [e] and [o] apply. It is unambiguous and has the additional benefit of making the IPA transcription appear that much less cluttered. Similar conventions are already formally used for other languages with vowels in these general positions, including Spanish and Japanese (and Japanese in particular also has rather unusual exact articulations for its /i/ and /u/ vowels, being [e̯i] and [ü̜], but few IPA transcriptions are this pedantic). We could probably use [o̞] specifically in Koine-period IPA where [ɛ] and [e] distinctions existed but [ɔ] and [o] distinctions did not exist, but from the Byzantine period onward there doesn't appear to be any pressing need as its vowel inventory reduced to six simple isochronic phonemes [a̙ e̞ i o̞ u y]. - Gilgamesh 17:56, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
We will continue the discussion while trying to complete the table in Wiktionary:About Greek/Pronunciation Flyax


I will accept your edits to my recent changes (incorrect spellings might still be called alternative) - but it would be real nice if you could in the Edit summary box at the bottom of the screen, so that others can see what you have been doing. —SaltmarshTalk 13:02, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I agree with you - I have seen μπίρα and μπύρα but never μπήρα in tavernas. Greek always seems anarchic (that's good!) to me (although bad for lexicographers). I was thinking (for example) of αδερφός/αδελφός was αδερφός once a misspelling?
Please could you have a look at άζωτο, is there a plural, a chemist in English might say that a molecule had 2 nitrogens (meaning 2 nitrogen atoms)? Thanks —SaltmarshTalk 15:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)


Thanks for creating the entry καταλύω: it is the root of the English word catalysis, although there seems to be some discrepancy as to its translation. "Dissolve" or "destroy" are often cited as translations, but they do not seem to fit with the sense of the derived English word. Sometimes "loosen up" is suggested as a translation (from κατα– + λύω), which would fit (just about) with "catalysis" but for which I'm having a hard time finding good sources. Many thanks again for your contribution, which I have linked from w:catalysis. Physchim62 13:15, 14 December 2007 (UTC)

User:Athang1504 and etymologies[edit]

I left a note at his talk page that he'll be blocked if he continues to add this material, since he's been asked by several others already not to do so. ArielGlenn 22:02, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greek pronunciation[edit]

Man, that's a slick little template you're using. Ancient Greek pronunciation sure has come a long way since I last checked in. Would you be willing to teach me how to use that, it looks like quite the time-saver. Atelaes 08:33, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I found Category:Ancient Greek IPA tokens. Sorry to have bothered. Atelaes 08:38, 13 January 2008 (UTC)


I've started going through some of this user's work. I've undone a few things, but it would appear you, Stephen, and ArielGlenn have already done most of the work. However, I've run across a couple which I'd like to run by you. First, I can find no mention of ἄλβος anywhere. You moved it to its current spelling, and so I'm assuming you have some reason for it, but I guess I'd just like to hear it from your mouth that the word really does exist. Second, I can't find any verification for the etymology on Ὠκεανός. Do you have any idea if that's legit? That's all I have for the time-being. By the way, I'd like to offer my praise on some of the excellent Ancient Greek work you've been doing around here. Atelaes 05:46, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

ἰῶμαι has been restored. Is it a contraction of ἰάομαι, then? By the way, did you manage to track down ἄλβος? Atelaes 19:56, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Excellent. Thank you. Also, one thing you may want to bear in mind is that some of the editors frown upon redirects. So, while I wouldn't worry too much about ἰάομαι (If I get time, I'll create an entry for it today), you may want to avoid creating them in the future. As for the proper noun, most of my current sources are severely lacking in proper nouns, so I'm not surprised I didn't see that. Thanks again. Atelaes 20:19, 17 January 2008 (UTC)


A discussion is afoot at Wiktionary talk:About Ancient Greek#Mycenaean.......Greek? Redux. You have been invited because you participated in a previous discussion, I thought you might have a particular insight or interest in the discussion, or simply because I wanted to spam your page and irritate you. Check it out. Atelaes 09:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I have created another conversation on AAG which you may have some thoughts on. I'm having a hard time linking to it, but it's right below the previously noted convo, so I'm sure you'll be able to find it. Thanks. Atelaes 00:43, 21 January 2008 (UTC)


Would you be willing to look into this word? Ivan Štambuk put in a request for it, but I don't have it in any of my sources, at least not enough to write any sort of entry. Beekes has a bit on it, but again, not enough to write an article from. Many thanks. Atelaes 23:56, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

The word is referred to only by Hesychius (as θεπτάνων ? θεπταίνων ?) who gives as a synonym the word ἁπτόμενος (who is to be burned). Hofmann gives as a cognate the word τέφρα (ashes), from *dhegʷh- (to burn). Unfortunately, that was all I could find. Not a single reference in an ancient text apart from Hesychius. --flyax 00:28, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Ok, I think I'll hold off on it then, until I can get a more concrete definition. Speaking of τέφρα, do you happen to know if the ending alpha is long or short? I can't seem to find that out. Thanks. Atelaes 00:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The ending alpha in the female nouns of the first declension is long if it is preceded by a vowel or a ρ. There are the following exceptions: γραῖα, μαῖα, μυῖα, μοῖρα, πεῖρα, πρῷρα, σφαῖρα, σφῦρα and the proparoxytones like εὐσέβεια, ἀλήθεια and so on. So, the α in τέφρα must be long. --flyax 15:38, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Also, when you get some time, would you be willing to check your LSJ for the etymology on δειράς? Mine has a Sanskrit dṛṣad "rock" listed as a cognate. I was wondering if they'd changed their position on that (I'm assuming your LSJ is newer than mine). Thanks. Atelaes 10:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
My L-S is actually older than yours and it has not any note for the etymology of δειράς. Hofmann says: "maybe from *guerio-, cognate to Sanskrit giríh (mountain)." --flyax 15:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)


Hey, thanks for catching my mistake here. However, I believe the reason it was incorrect was because I forgot to specify the word's neuterness. I switched it to a standard template, and the inflection seems to work fine. I hate to do this to you, as I'm sure it took you a while to right that template, but I was wondering what your thoughts would be on deleting the template. You see, I don't think it does anything that Template:grc-decl-3rd-N-dn-prx does not, and I'd really prefer to not have redundant templates. It's tricky enough to find the right one as it is. Your thoughts? Atelaes 06:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why I was so blind not to locate the suitable template in the Category. Thats why I created the new template. Since it isn't necessary I wouldn't mind if you deleted it. --flyax 12:09, 4 February 2008 (UTC)


Thanks for catching that bit. I've added yet another parameter to that god-awful mess of a template. One question though, could you double-check the active neuter participle? I assumed that it would inflect like the active infinitive, but I'm not sure. Many thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:26, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it's OK. --flyax 10:52, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

Also, would you look at χειρουργέω when you get a sec? Just to make sure I didn't screw up the inflection or the translation? Ευχαριστώ. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:07, 28 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry to keep asking work of you, but would you double check my hidden translation on πολυμαθής? I couldn't figure out what παρόντων was. Many thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:34, 29 February 2008 (UTC)


You're probably right - but has 180+ entries so I suspect that it more than a random error, but a common spelling mistake that should perhaps have an entry (saying that it is a common erroneous spelling?), compare with παραγέλλω which only has 2 entries. I have other things going on at present - must set aside some hours for wiktionary! —SaltmarshTalk 12:35, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that παραγγέλλει v παραγγέλει helps my point - with a usage of >10% the misspelling is too common to ignore. It is just that people will look up a common mispelling in a dictionary - it is good if they find it and better that they then find out that it is mispelled. I don't know the history of αβγό/αυγό but would there have been a similar discussion about this at some point in the past? :) —SaltmarshTalk 07:54, 12 March 2008 (UTC)
see WT:CFI#Misspellings, common misspellings and variant spellings and accomodation. But I don't want to push this any further, since time could be more usefully spent! —SaltmarshTalk 07:00, 21 March 2008 (UTC)


Long time no........type. I was wondering if you might be willing to look at this entry. It has sort of been a thorn in my side for some time now, and I only just realized that it hadn't yet been dealt with. If you look through its history, you'll note that no one seems to be able to decide just what language it is. Note that θεῖον and theion have both been created (the latter of which I think should be deleted, but don't have the ambition to start the discussion on it). In any case, is this spelling Greek, Ancient Greek, neither? I figure if anyone's qualified to make such a decision, it is undoubtedly you, who have a mastery over all three languages this word has claimed to be :-). Many thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:50, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your kind words. The Ancient Greek word needs a circumflex, that's obvious to me. On the other hand the demotic word for sulfur is θείο. So, θείον is the katharevousa form of θείο and it is still used as a learned form meaning divine, God. Babiniotis Dictionary of Modern Greek has two entries: 1) θείο: sulfur 2) θείο(ν): God. --flyax 11:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. Thank you. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 14:54, 7 April 2008 (UTC)


Can you help please - the plural of Δευτέρα, usually (always?) Δευτέρες? The differently stressed Δεύτερες seems quite common is it always the adjectival form or an alternative noun plural? thanks —SaltmarshTalk 06:32, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

"δεύτερες" always means "second" (feminine, plural). --flyax 06:38, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

doh! thanks —SaltmarshTalk 10:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

θεπτάνων, κοινά[edit]

Since you spent so much time helping me look for these earlier, I thought I'd let you know I found them. They're from Hesychius' lexicon. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:00, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

And looking at our previous conversation on θεπτάνων had all the information right there, which makes me feel sort of silly. I'll have to start paying closer attention to your comments. Sorry. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:32, 2 May 2008 (UTC)
The first meaning of the word χόρτος was not hay but feeding place for animals, barn, pasture. So it's more likely that what Hesychius is referring to is a place, a communal piece of land where herders grazed their animals. Of course this is nothing more than an assumption. --flyax 19:39, 3 May 2008 (UTC)
That is an excellent point. I suppose that in my excitement I overlooked that possibility. However, the etymological support for "hay" should not be overlooked either. I will have to ponder on how to format the entry so that it presents both possibilities. Thanks for your insight. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 07:31, 4 May 2008 (UTC)
I've reworked κοινά. Please take a look and let me know what you think. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)
Thank you! :) --flyax 05:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

w:Balearic Islands#Etymology[edit]

Hi, could you please add the transliterations for the Greek names in this section of the Balearic Islands article? I see many squares in the text, if you understand. Thank you Mallerd 08:43, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it seems that you need polytonic fonts support. Normally, with Firefox or IE7 you should not have any such problem. But I'll see what I can do. --flyax 10:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much Mallerd 08:40, 12 May 2008 (UTC)


Thanks - it had been added by TBot, I had doubts and almost asked! Should have more confidence - but this sometimes leads to trouble! —Saltmarshαπάντηση 06:04, 17 June 2008 (UTC)


Hi - please could you check the above. It had been created at an adjective, but Βικιλεξικό has it as an adverb - the word is missing from Kriaras. thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 12:04, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Done. --flyax 14:07, 22 June 2008 (UTC)


Continued the discussion at Template talk:grc-adecl-3rd-con-ες-pax. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:24, 26 June 2008 (UTC)


Please see WT:BP#CheckUser votes., you may be able to help. --EncycloPetey 20:37, 15 September 2008 (UTC)


Would you take a look at the inflection. It's got such an esoteric inflection, that I wasn't sure if it was correct. I'm especially uncertain about the two aorists (although admittedly, the whole thing's just a bit shaky). Also, would you take a look at Wiktionary:Tea_room#ἐξίστημι? Perhaps you've got some ideas on this; maybe a solution which el:wikt is using. Many thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:27, 27 September 2008 (UTC)

"action of"[edit]

Thanks for your improvement of pruning. I hate the words "action of" in present-participle-derived nouns so much that the emotion seems to interfere with my ability to find substitute wording. I also find that such nouns so defined are usually declared to be uncountable when they are not. (They often are not really nouns when they do not form a plural.) Replacing the "action of" wording would probably be a real service. Let me know if you can figure some patterns for forming other wordings without too much thought or any copyright violation. DCDuring TALK 16:04, 12 February 2009 (UTC)


I have a huge favour to ask of you. Would you be willing to fulfill the rfv for this word? My Greek is nowhere near competent enough to handle the task, and I think it is a valid sense (it's in your Wiktionary, which I imagine to be trustworthy). My sincerest thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Do words have a sense on their own? I doubt that. People give words their senses. So, if I were to write this entry, I would put as sole definition the word Macedonia, without any explanatory phrase. It is enough that the English entry has been a theater of edit war. We don't need another one. --flyax 12:17, 9 April 2009 (UTC)
As far the el.wikt entry is concerned: there is a note in the last definition, without which this definition wouldn't have been easily accepted (at least, this is my opinion). G.Babiniotis' dictionary includes such a definition too, but with the comment that such a use is catachrestic, improper (καταχρηστικά). --flyax 13:32, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

Greek/Turkish loanword ?[edit]

Hello, Flyax. I have a quæstion regarding the word for pavement/paved toad in three of the Balkan languages: SC kaldrma, Bg. калдъръм and Romanian caldaram. The grammar of Serbo-Croatian which I am reading now, defines the SC word as græcism, loaned from Greek. However, I consulted one etymology dictionary and it claimed Turkish origin. Do you know any Greek word which means paved road, pavement or kerb and sounds similar to kaldrma? I need it for Appendix:List of Balkanisms and in order to confute the arguable Turkish origin. If you are interested, you could wade through the Appendix and check the spelling or mark some words as archaic or obsolete. Ivan explained somewhere that in Greek there was a purification process (similar to the one in Bulgarian) after independence aiming at diposing of the abundance of Turkish loanwords in Greek. Regards. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 13:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

I found this in one source: καλντερίμι. What does it mean? Does it have an Ancient Greek predecessor? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 14:28, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

See this. It says that καλντερίμι is of Turkish origin (kaldırım). --flyax 17:06, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
I am really nonplussed... On the one side, Gudkov can't be mistaken, his grammer is issued by the МГУ, one of the world's leading universities, on the other side, your Greek etymological dictionary and one Romanian (quoted by Opiaterein) claim Turkish descent. I feel downbeat... Anyway, thanks for trying. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 17:36, 24 April 2009 (UTC)
Correct, both are from Ottoman Turkish kaldırım, but itself fossilised from Middle Greek phrase καλός (kalós, beautiful) δρόμος (drómos, path, road). --..Ivan Štambuk 20:02, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
I knew that the claim in the grammar can't be amiss! Thanks, Ivan, I am going to add this information in the entry. The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 20:07, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
OK. Now, I'm very curious. Where did you find that etymology? --flyax 20:26, 25 April 2009 (UTC)
It is possible that South Slavic and Romanian borrowed it from Greek (and thus indirectly from Turkish), but it seems more likely that all three borrowed it directly from Turkish. The καλός δρόμος derivation seems unlikely, especially since there is a perfectly good Turkish derivation meaning 'a raised thing' (i.e. above the ground surface): from the verb kaldır- 'to raise' + -im (forms deverbal nouns); kaldır- is a regular causative formed from kal- 'to remain' + -dir. Also, both the Andriotis and the Babiniotis dictionaries of modern Greek show it as coming from Turkish, and do not show the Turkish as coming from Greek. That would be what they call an αντιδάνειο (a reborrowing), and both dictionaries are quite systematic (I would even say enthusiastic) in signalling reborrowings from Greek. --Macrakis (talk) 21:05, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

I have contributed an article on kalderimia (paved mule tracks) to Wikipedia. I'm afraid that so far I've only found sources for usage in Greece. I would appreciate contributions with reliable sources for other parts of the former Ottoman Empire. --Macrakis (talk) 22:33, 1 July 2012 (UTC)

Requested Greek[edit]

Could you please add the Greek entries for Ελλήσποντος (Hellespont) and Δαρδανέλια (Dardanelles)? I was shocked earlier today when I doscovered we didn;t have entries for either the English or Greek, and then added the English myself. --EncycloPetey 15:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Done. --flyax 18:20, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

Requæsting lemmata and their infinitives[edit]

Thanks for fixing this etymology, linking to the lemma instead of the infinitive, as is proper. However, when it comes to my requæsts, please don’t remove the one for the infinitive. Authorities such as the OED mark derivation from the infinitive, not the lemma, wherefore it would be useful to have soft-redirect entries for all Ancient Greek verbs’ infinitive forms, so that, if I add an etymology and find the infinitive blue-linked, I can change the etymon to the lemma, as is our policy. Please, by all means feel free to correct my etymologies by substituting infinitives with lemmata, and add requæsts for lemmata alongside mine for infinitives, however, please do not remove the requæsts for infinitives, since their præsence hereon as soft-redirect entries is a boon to Græco-illiterates like me. Thanks.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 14:03, 29 August 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for answering many of my requæsts lately, BTW.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 21:33, 6 September 2009 (UTC)

You are welcome :) --flyax 09:12, 7 September 2009 (UTC)


Can you help please? Kriara says that this is a participle (which looking at the English it probably is), Two of my bilingual dictionaries say it is an adjective - do you have any thoughts? thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 18:06, 24 September 2009 (UTC)

See this] for the etymology. The ancient Greek word was a participle of the verb αὔξω. However this verb is no more in use in modern Greek, so, in my opinion, it's absolutely OK to consider it an adjective. --flyax 18:30, 24 September 2009 (UTC)
Thanks - presumably invariable (άκλιτο) —Saltmarshαπάντηση 16:10, 25 September 2009 (UTC)
No, it's like ενδιαφέρων but it hasn't any comparative or superlative. --flyax 16:56, 25 September 2009 (UTC)


Could you please help with φαγεῖν? It appears in several etymologies as "to eat", but I do not know the correct lemma form, nor do I know whether "φαγεῖν" is an infinitive, aorist or what other form it is. --Dan Polansky 12:03, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

It's the infinitive of ἔφαγον (I ate), which has no Present tense. It is used as the Aorist of ἐσθίω. I suppose that you could use φαγεῖν in your etymologies. --flyax 12:22, 1 October 2009 (UTC)
Thank you! --Dan Polansky 12:31, 1 October 2009 (UTC)


Do you know the present form (and thus the lemma form in Wiktionary) of Ancient Greek σήπειν ("to make rotten")? Thanks. --Dan Polansky 10:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Done. See σήπω. --flyax 14:09, 4 October 2009 (UTC)


Can I have one more wish? I do not know what to do with the forms σκέπτεσθαι and σκέπτομαι, the first one probably being a present infinitive and thus non-lemma. Could you create pages for the two forms or at least tell me how they are related?

The form σκέπτεσθαι appears as an etymon in skeptic; σκέπτομαι is linked to from specio.

I'd be grateful. --Dan Polansky 15:51, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Done. --flyax 18:32, 12 October 2009 (UTC)


Acronym - that's good, I should think a little harder next time —Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:05, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

ΟΚ. But what about PASOK, ELOT, LAOS, ELAS, EON? They are marked as English, yet they belong to the Category:Greek abbreviations, acronyms and initialisms. Something is wrong there. What is your opinion? --flyax 09:33, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Recent edits[edit]

Could you look over the recent edits of User:Omnipaedista? I'm not particularly good with Greek, but the formatting for most of these entries is also very bad, with incorrect section headers, missing inflection lines, etc. Can you help? --EncycloPetey 22:28, 25 November 2009 (UTC)


Hi there. Can you add the Greek translation of the word hydrate to the translation table for the noun? Thanks, Razorflame 06:53, 3 December 2009 (UTC)

δημοκρατία quotation[edit]

Hi Flyax. Thanks for adding this citation of Herodotus. Is that the earliest use of the term of which you know?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 20:47, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

There are some sayings attributed by later writers to the Seven Sages but I doubt that the actual phrasing belongs to them. Here is an example from Plutarchus' Septem sapientium convivium (Τῶν ἑπτά σοφῶν συμπόσιον), 154E: ὁ Βίας ἔφησε κρατίστην εἶναι δημοκρατίαν ἐν ᾗ πάντες ὡς τύραννον φοβοῦνται τὸν νόμον (Bias said that the strongest democracy is that wherein all fear the law as their tyrant). --flyax 10:34, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
So, you’re saying that those attributions are anecdotal, rather than like saying “Bias said that ‘the strongest democracy is that wherein all fear the law as their tyrant’”, yes? Nevertheless, I think they’re still worth noting, since there’s a very good chance that Bias did use δημοκρατία (dēmokratía) or one of its inflexions when discussing the form of government. (I don’t know how intuitive a word δημοκρατία (dēmokratía) would have been to an Ancient Greek, since in English, circumlocutions like “popular government” and “rule of the people / entire populace” would be quite likely; whilst the structure of Bias’s sentence may be something that we can doubt to have been reliably transmitted by Plutarch, is the use of the word likely to have been a faithful reproduction, rather than an innovation avant la lettre?) Anyway, I believe that such a quotation would be worth including in the entry (but as a citation of Plutarch, rather than Bias), irrespective of whether Bias used δημοκρατίαν (dēmokratían).  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 19:28, 11 December 2009 (UTC)
I don't know whether the word δημοκρατία could have existed before the reformation of the Athenian government by Cleisthenes, so I don't know whether Bias or Lycourgos could ever have used it. And, yes, I agree that the quotation, as a citation of Plutarch, could be used in the entry. --flyax 19:23, 12 December 2009 (UTC)
I see; I’m guessing they’d have used ἰσονομία (isonomía) or similar, right? I’ve added the citation of Plutarch to the entry; could you give it a more precise date or date range (somewhen narrower than Plutarch’s whole lifetime, at least), please? Thanks.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 05:29, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't know when this work (The Banquet ...) was written. I am afraid also that ἰσονομία poses the same problems. I know that Herodotus used it (Hist.3.80.26) but I can't find any earlier appearance of the word. --flyax 09:21, 13 December 2009 (UTC)
Yeah, no problem. Whenever you have the time and inclination, could you create ἰσονομία (isonomía) please? Wikipedia’s article about isonomia contains a very interesting discussion of the concept and states that Herodotus, Cleisthenes, and Solon all used the word. It would be wonderful to have full, detailed entries for both ἰσονομία (isonomía) and δημοκρατία (dēmokratía), since they seem to be fundamental and complimentary concepts in political philosophy.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:49, 14 December 2009 (UTC)


In the etymology of "parody", I have entered "παρῳδία", following Century 1911 and Lidell & Scott online. But I have some doubts. Do you know whether "παρῳδία" is a correct spelling of an Ancient Greek word, especially as regards the diacritics of omega? --Dan Polansky 12:58, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it is correct (ῳ). --flyax 19:02, 31 January 2010 (UTC)

Cypriot - Κυπριώτης[edit]

Please can you help me with the Greek nouns for Cypriot Male:Κύπριος, Κυπριώτης; Female:Κύπρια, Κυπριώτισσα. I started down this road when wondering where the ending -iot came from!

  1. Are some preferred in Cyprus?
  2. Does Κύπριος = Κυπριώτης and
  3. Does Κύπρια = Κυπριώτισσα
  4. What are the plurals of Κυπριώτης and Κυπριώτισσα

Thanks for any help you can give —Saltmarshαπάντηση 15:49, 12 February 2010 (UTC)

Hello! I can't answer your first question. The plurars are Κυπριώτες, Κυπριώτισσες and these names are synonyms to Κύπριος, Κύπρια (or sometimes Κυπρία). --flyax 12:02, 13 February 2010 (UTC)
cheers! —Saltmarshαπάντηση 14:33, 13 February 2010 (UTC)


Thanks for comments re ποιητής - I had this on a list of nouns which could refer to subjects of either gender. προσωπικότητα was another on the list - can it refer to personalities of either gender? Although I have found a definition "man distinguished by high position or influence", which in English is not exactly a "personality"!

P.S. I have just noticed above User talk:Flyax#ΠαΣοΚ and put those points right! —Saltmarshαπάντηση 17:11, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

I have just revisited this and realise that the tranlation is personality (person's distinctive character) as opposed to a personality as with eg Kylie Minogue. DO you use προσωπικότητα have this use? thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 17:16, 16 February 2010 (UTC)
Yes, a famous actress or a politician could be called "προσωπικότητες", which is a second meaning, the first being "person's distinctive character". --flyax 18:06, 16 February 2010 (UTC)

Declension templates for adjectives[edit]

I wrote these templates 4 years ago and they are scarcely used. I had just started writing an appendix to describe their use when I realised why even I didn't use them. They need renaming! Please can you let me have any comments.

Modern Greek nouns are quite well populated with their declensions, the same cannot be said of adjectives. I have just started writing Appendix:Greek adjectives to describe the use of the templates for creating adjectives' declensions. The current names are inscrutable, will interested parties please comment on a new naming scheme which will follow the example given. I intend to start changing the names in a few days time, unless there are strong objections.
el-a-etc-etc follows the scheme used for nouns (el-nm-etc-etc, where the m indicates gender). The names el-adj-etc should be reserved for use when formating headword/inflection line formats. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 07:30, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

I don't know what to say. I agree that present names are difficult to remember and use but I haven't any ideas. In el.wikt we use a characteristic word, for example el-κλισ-καλός, el-κλισ-γλυκός etc. I don't know if this could help you. Please make a start with your own ideas and we'll see. --flyax 20:34, 22 February 2010 (UTC)

ευχαριστώ —Saltmarshαπάντηση 07:11, 23 February 2010 (UTC)
Native Greek speakers will have no problems with naming templates after a typical adjective of a declension. For us learners (or perhaps just me :) it isn't so easy. Hence the new guide to template names at Appendix:Greek adjectives. Please see also next subject. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 07:51, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Greek adjective headword line.[edit]

The headword line we currently use is not satisfactory (it says m Template:nominative sg) - when it may well be another case form as well. Most dictionaries, monolingual as well as bilingual, show the feminine and neuter endings. I have worked up a new template (currently {{el-test}}) whose output you can see at at τέλειος - please let me know what you think. cheers —Saltmarshαπάντηση 07:59, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

I agree. We do the same thing on el.wikt and this is what I am used to see on Thank you for your initiative. --flyax 10:49, 28 February 2010 (UTC)
thanks - The template is now {{el-adj}}Saltmarshαπάντηση 12:01, 28 February 2010 (UTC)

Γη / γη[edit]

I am unsure about the planet's capitalisation. Kriaras has the headword l/c but examples in the text have u/c. Most dictionaries use l/c - the web is inconsistent. Its a toponym (I suppose) and a proper noun but there seem too many uncapitalised examples - is the matter undecided? cheers —Saltmarshαπάντηση 14:27, 7 April 2010 (UTC)

I am afraid it is. It's the same with ήλιος/Ήλιος, σελήνη/Σελήνη. Other planets are always capitalized though (because they have gods' names I suppose). --flyax 15:30, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 15:42, 7 April 2010 (UTC)


Just letting you know of this surprisingly contentious vote. Input from more Wiktionarians such as yourself would be much appreciated. Thanks. – Krun 09:16, 22 May 2010 (UTC)


Is χάρτου an irregular/alternative genitive singular? Two examples from Καθημερινή:

  1. θα σεβασθή τάς αρχάς τού καταστατικού χάρτου τού Ο.Η.Ε (?charter)
  2. Συζητήσεις, νόμοι, σχέδια επί χάρτου, γραφειοκρατικά εμπόδια... (?paper ?? χαρτιού)

Can you help please? - thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 11:06, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

It is not irregular, it's just the katharevousa genitive: θα σεβασθή τάς αρχάς τού καταστατικού χάρτου τού Ο.Η.Ε = θα σεβαστεί τις αρχές του καταστατικού χάρτη του ΟΗΕ. It has survived in some fixed expressions like σχέδια επί χάρτου, ασκήσεις επί χάρτου (plans, [military] exercises on a map; theoretical conversation instead of or before action, εμπόριο χάρτου (trade of paper). --flyax 12:35, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

as I've said before - thanks! —Saltmarshαπάντηση 14:14, 28 May 2010 (UTC)

declensions f - άνοιξη & ζάχαρη[edit]

  1. I have just put in a declension table for άνοιξη - it differs with one on Βικιλεξικό (άνοιξη), is ανοίξεις the correct plural? (HNC seems to say so) or am I muddled??
  2. Template {{el-nF-η-ες-3b1}} has grey unlinked plural forms - is there a reason? ζάχαρες seems rare - but how would you describe the sugars lactose, fructose etc in Greek?
thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 19:13, 1 June 2010 (UTC)
  1. According to Babiniotis there are two plurals; personally, I haven't seen the first one (ανοίξεις) anywhere, so I just have to trust Babiniotis. I remember, though, having seen the second one in literature texts. Anyway, rarely would someone actually hear any plural in everyday speech, hence the confusion I guess.
  2. The grey links must have been my mistake. We can ask for a coffee "με δύο ζάχαρες", i.e with two spoons of sugar. Lactose, fructose, etc are called "σάκχαρα". --flyax 19:39, 1 June 2010 (UTC)


Hi - is "Δεκεμβριανά" used (almost) solely to refer to December 1944. If used outside 1944 is it used to refer to any December? cheers —Saltmarshαπάντηση 06:15, 10 June 2010 (UTC)

Some people use it also to refer to the riots of December 2008. But it's to early to include it in a dictionary (my opinion). --flyax 10:45, 10 June 2010 (UTC)
The last time we stayed in Athens we got off the bus in Amalias to have a beer in the National Gardens before finding somewhere to stay. 5 minutes later the riot police turned up - complete with water-canon - they were still hanging around when we left. The British govt is just getting its act together - but I suspect resistance here will be a lot less! —Saltmarshαπάντηση 11:29, 10 June 2010 (UTC)


Please can you verify, thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 13:23, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Babiniotis prefers this spelling for etymological reasons (same origin as παππούς, ancient πάππος, πάππας). Some people do write it with double π, search for "οι παππάδες" on Google. But the simplified spelling παπάς is generally accepted. --flyax 14:35, 25 June 2010 (UTC)
Thanks - I ought to start saving my pennies for what is obviously more complete than my Kriaras. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 15:25, 25 June 2010 (UTC)


I'm stepping outside my comfort zone here - and the sources differ - please can you check. With thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 16:12, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

I think it's totally idiosyncratic. Many people think, because of its plural, that it's inflected like παπάς, so we can find "του φυγά", "το(ν) φυγά". Others prefer to follow the general tension of the demotic to adapt the nominative to the accusative (see "ἡ ἀσπίς, τὴν ἀσπίδα --> η ασπίδα), so we can find "ο φυγάδας". As for the vocative, I would instinctively say "φυγά". --flyax 16:26, 8 July 2010 (UTC)

μετά βεβαιότητος[edit]

Is μετά βεβαιότητος idiomatic? In some contexts βεβαιότητος seems to be genitive singular. Is this a Katharevousa relic? —Saltmarshαπάντηση 06:28, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's the genitive of the noun "η βεβαιότης" (βεβαιότητα in the Demotic). One can also say "μετά πάσης βεβαιότητος" (instead of "με απόλυτη βεβαιότητα"). It's the use of the preposition μετά -instead of the much more common με- that demands a katharevousa genitive here. --flyax 07:18, 8 August 2010 (UTC)

Greek declensions ++[edit]

A couple of things:

1. Vahag has changed the appearance of our declension tables so that they take on the appearance which seems to be coming the standard across Wiktionary. The syntax for their use remains the same.
2. At his suggestion I have removed from the noun inflection line the plural transliteration. It seemed clumsy have the brackets within brackets that the template produces. Existing entries do not need changing as the argument is now ignored. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 15:20, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
ΟΚ. Thank you for keeping me informed :) --flyax 20:36, 6 September 2010 (UTC)


Please could you comment on her declension - thanks. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:53, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that - no wonder I wondered! You can now add notes as an argument in the table template eg: note=These inflected forms etc ... —Saltmarshαπάντηση 15:42, 11 September 2010 (UTC)


γεματότερος may be an imagined form - Googling produces scarcely any results. Is it just very rare?
I have put a question at the Wiktionary:Beer_parlour, you may care to comment. cheers —Saltmarshαπάντηση 07:18, 18 September 2010 (UTC)

I haven't ever heard such a comparative. Grammatically it isn't impossible and I suppose that some people might use it but it doesn't sound very 'natural'. As for 'γεματότατος', I think it would be acceptable only as an "improvisation" or as a joke. --flyax 10:56, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
re examples under περισσότερος - obviously beyond my competance - I had better resist all such temptations in future! —Saltmarshαπάντηση 13:45, 18 September 2010 (UTC)
On the contrary, be bold!. We can't learn but through our mistakes. --flyax 13:56, 18 September 2010 (UTC)


Hi flyax. Atelaes suggested that I ask you whether you knew if "δωδεκαρχία (dōdekarkhía) [is] attested in Ancient Greek or in a later variety of Greek prior to 1662" because "[your] resources are rather more comprehensive than [his]". "[His] LSJ mentions δωδεκάρχης (dōdekárkhēs), but gives no cites, and does not mention δωδεκαρχία (dōdekarkhía) at all"; what do your resources say? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 09:54, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Hi. I looked for "δωδεκαρχ" in the TLG database and the only result I've got was (twice) the word δωδεκάρχους, which must be the accusative plural of a second declension noun, δωδέκαρχος. The first example is from Xenophon, Cyropaedia, τοὺς δὲ δωδεκάρχους ἐν μετώπῳ καθιστάναι .... The second one is from Heshychius: <δεκαδάρχαι>· οἱ τῶν δεκάδων ἡγεμόνες, οὓς καὶ δωδεκάρχους ἔλεγον. ἦσαν γὰρ σὺν τῷ δεκάρχῳ δώδεκα. --flyax 11:22, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
So δωδεκαρχία (dōdekarkhía) is not attested in Ancient Greek, yes? Did your search include all pre-1662 Greek, too? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 11:48, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I didn't find the word 'δωδεκαρχία'. The collection of works in TLG covers the period from 8. century BC to 15. century. My impression is that it's complete as regards the antiquity. I can't guarantee that all Byzantine or post-Byzantine texts are included, though. --flyax 12:32, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
OK, thanks. Do you know of its earliest date of attestation in Modern Greek? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 12:43, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't know. It's a very rare word and Greek dictionaries don't have it. --flyax 13:19, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
Is it attestable at all per the fourth criterion for inclusion? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 13:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

If you are talking about the modern Greek word, then I do think it is attestable. As regards your previous question (earliest date of attestation in Modern Greek) I may have found something after all. In this webpage it is written that in 1828 there were such small units in the Greek army. --flyax 14:01, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Is that a valid citation of the use of the term from that date, or is δωδεκαρχία a modern term applied to a historical entity? If the latter, do you care to add the citation to Citations:δωδεκαρχία? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 14:27, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
I am sure that modern texts like that use the actual term of 1828. I created the Citation page with a citation from a print source. --flyax 21:24, 20 September 2010 (UTC)
FWIW, Πολυλεξικό (Modern Greek dictionary) includes that word and defines it as: 1. το αξίωμα του δωδεκάρχη 2. χώρα που αποτελείται από δώδεκα επαρχίες, πολιτείες ή ηγεμονίες που έχουν τον ίδιο άρχοντα. --Vahag 09:53, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
Thank you for that. I'm still looking for instances of the word in the Web and these definitions might help :) --flyax 11:07, 21 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm watching that red link, so I'll keep track of how you get on. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 12:01, 22 September 2010 (UTC)

Nice. :-)  — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 10:44, 25 September 2010 (UTC)

comparative forms[edit]

Is there a case to display the "πιο" and "ο πιο" forms as standard in declension tables (with a flag to supress display when necessary) ?
"more unique" is quite commonly found in English (although logically meaningless) I guess that similar discussions might happen with Greek "πιο μοναδικός". —Saltmarshαπάντηση 16:05, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

Comparatives like that always confused me. If you want to change the template, I have no problem; the real problem will be then to supress display or not; I'm afraid that in many cases I won't be able to decide. --flyax 20:11, 20 September 2010 (UTC)

λαιμόν & λαιμός[edit]

Hi Flyax

  1. Do these 2 ways of treating Katharevousa forms seem OK to you?
  2. All -ον occurences seem to be accusative - is this true?
  3. Do you know of an Greek word frequency lists on the internet?

Thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 06:34, 7 November 2010 (UTC)

Hi! I don't see any problems in these entries (except that λαιμός isn't a Katharevousa form; the entry is OK though). Noun forms in -ον can be masc./fem. acc.sing. (τον άνθρωπον, την οδόν) or neuter nom.-acc.-voc. sing. (το μέσον, του μέσου - το προσόν, του προσόντος).
Perhaps λαιμός is less ambiguous. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 10:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
(3) I don't have any particular experience with such lists; I googled "Greek word frequency lists" but only the first result seems to be useful (this one). --flyax 08:31, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for that, I suspect that I had found it before. I am going to create an appendix of Greek words by frequency - we have lots of exotic/rare words, I suspect that we are missing some common ones :) —Saltmarshαπάντηση 10:42, 7 November 2010 (UTC)
There is GreekLex, which is located here: If after you unzip it you run a sort from linux like this: sort -nr -k 4 GreekLex_LowerCase.txt | more you will get the most common lemmas listed first. You could also try -k 5 for a slightly different sorting; see which you prefer. The list is based on the Hellenic National Corpus (see The sources in this corpus are written texts only, so the word frequencies will be skewed accordingly, see for more info about the corpus. Still I think it may be useful to you. If you are interested there is also a paper about GreekLex [1]. -- ArielGlenn 08:52, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Also there is this: I wonder if it is related to GreekLex. -- ArielGlenn 09:22, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
Thanks ArielGlenn - I shall have a look at this over the weekend. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 09:44, 20 November 2010 (UTC)


Please can you confirm this usage - thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 10:48, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

Yes, it's correct. To put it in your words :) it's a katharevousa relic. --flyax 13:34, 8 November 2010 (UTC)


Could you pass judgement please - this Corfiot town generally appears to be treated as feminine, singular - but I find some masculine and some plural articles/adjectives associated with it! thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 07:09, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

I don't know this village but the name is definitely plural. It seems to be feminine, if we should trust Wikipedia and the majority of the sites that mention it. On the other hand, it's very easy to be interpreted as masculine plural, at least by those who hear it for the first time and don't have a clue about its proper gender. You should find and ask someone from the island to be sure. Personally I'd bet for the feminine though. --flyax 11:23, 29 November 2010 (UTC)


After enquiries elsewhere about the best format for degrees of comparison for Greek adjectives, it was suggested that the format used for German words be used (see gut#German). I have now produced a near equivalent, it is not ready for use yet - but have a look at the example at πονηρός. It should take some of the pain out of entering declension tables. Please have a look when you have time - especially have I got the correct forms (for example the presence/absence of vocative forms). ANy comment you could leave at Talk:πονηρός will be gratefully received. If you celebrate Christmas - have a good time! —Saltmarshαπάντηση 17:48, 23 December 2010 (UTC)

Again - thank you for your positive feed back, please can I ask for some more? If so please make any comments at Template talk:el-decl-adj. I have made the following changes and reduced the number of arguments/variables its necessary to use:
  • The minim argument list is "stem" and "dec" as in σταχτής (the note is optional)
  • Display of the +πιο forms is now the default, it can be supressed with "nopio=1" (see μοναδικός).
The complete declension of +πιο forms is still available, but the nominative singular is shown in the box 'header'. I hope you will free to make whatever comments you want with the object of producing the appropriate display with a reasonably easy to remember template. —Saltmarshαπάντηση 12:56, 28 December 2010 (UTC)


Greek dictionaries regularly give etymologies as μτγν. (= μεταγενέστερος) - I dont know of a suitable English translation, "subsequent" raises the question "... to what". The dates given imply that it is the same as Koine - is it? Thanks, —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 17:18, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

If this definition is correct, then Late Greek might be a suitable translation. Koine is also correct (that is what ΛΚΝ has (e.g) and my personal preference). --flyax 18:59, 23 February 2011 (UTC)
I splashed out on a Babiniotis in the end, when I read the definition of μεταγενέστερος properly I note that it has η κοινή (but in brackets and with a small kappa) so I will use Koine - thanks —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 06:08, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Concerning your proposal[edit]

Hi Flyax,

Sorry for my delayed response. Thank you for your offer concerning the Romanian script. I really appreciate it!

I haven't decided yet what to do. I prefer the cedilla version myself, but if the opinion switches then I'll be forced to follow the new standards. The Romanian Wiktionary is currently (and unfortunately) quite dead, so we'll see how things progress. I'll let you know when that day comes and hopefully you'll still want to help me.

However, if you have the time to teach me how to use scripts (I suck at computers), I would be honoured to have you as a teacher :-)

Best regards,

--Robbie SWE 21:37, 3 March 2011 (UTC)

Hi again,
Sorry for yet another delayed response. It seems that I've lost the vote (ah well...) - I'm just waiting for confirmation from Prince Kassard.
Are you still interested in helping me change the script in the Romanian Wiktionary? I've taken a look at your guide and I understand some parts, but I am in no position to start experimenting on my own. I think I'll have to buy a book about it, maybe "**something something** for idiots" :-) If you have a bot that can change ş and ţ in every article, I can grant you bot-status. Let me know what you think and if you want to help!
Best Regards, --Robbie SWE 11:50, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
Thank you for your reply!
Turkish is the only language that uses a s cedilla (Romanian was the only language using a t cedilla). I can recall boş and şah as being the only shared entries with Turkish.
I think you can go ahead and start moving entries on the condition that they remain as redirects (I would also like to explore the possibility of creating a robot that automatically creates cedilla redirects every time an article containing the new letters is created).
I'm concerned about the necessary changes to entries' body: it has to be done but I don't know how to do it. Even articles in other languages containing Romanian translations have to be dealt with.
Let me know what I can do!
Best Regards --Robbie SWE 14:13, 14 March 2011 (UTC)
I believe there is a specific page move script designed for this sort of thing, best implemented by Conrad.Bot (talkcontribs) or another multi-purpose bot. That would be better as it would be faster and bypass the recent changes. --Mglovesfun (talk) 15:06, 29 March 2011 (UTC)
I would be very happy if a bot undertook this tedious task. Applying for a bot flag crossed my mind (I've moved such entries by bot on ro.wikt, but waiting for the voting procedure might take quite some time. So, OK, I'll wait for a while. --flyax 15:49, 29 March 2011 (UTC)

Redirect message[edit]

I'm really glad someone decided to migrate the Romanian cedilla entries, but I don't think you've really got to worry about leaving the little message so much. I only recall seeing one entry that had something other than Romanian on it, so I don't think there will ever be quite that much overlap. And if there is, I'm hoping whoever's adding the new word will be smart enough to not need the message :D — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 14:26, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Well, this wasn't my idea. User:msh210 proposed it on GP and I had no problem with that. You see, there have already been some entries with multiple language sections, see that, and it is possible that others will come. Anyway, if you think that this note is not necessary, please leave a message on GP or/and on Wiktionary:Votes/bt-2011-04/User:Flubot for bot status, so that I know what I must do if I get the bot flag. --flyax 14:38, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Double accents[edit]

  1. Going back to my original GP I realise that I was talking about the English - which is now available in edit tools, where I put it.
  2. In addition to the method you mention, the Greek ΐ is available with shift-W then i. I thought hard about your method (which seemed new to me) and then looked at Wiktionary:About_Greek#Writing Greek where I wrote it :)
Thanks again —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 05:40, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


Um, DEFAULTSORT: should work in this case. Why did you remove it? Did it case a bug? Mglovesfun (talk) 12:09, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

It didn;t work. Maybe it's the template el-noun. I'm not sure about it. --flyax 12:13, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
I think the problem is in this line: {{#if:{{NAMESPACE}}||[[Category:Greek nouns|{{{sort|{{PAGENAME}}}}}]]}} --flyax 12:16, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
I see, the sort in the category overrides the defaultsort. You can add {{el-noun|sort=αβακας}}. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:43, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. This is a good solution. However, since this sorting problem affects all Greek entries, I left a message on GP. --flyax 12:47, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorting script[edit]

Hope it works, I've een considering something similar for French for ages. Be aware of other categorizing template, such as {{etyl}} and context labels. --Mglovesfun (talk) 17:34, 15 April 2011 (UTC)

Yes it works, at least for nouns (see last edit of όρος). It won't be difficult to modify it in order to edit also adjectives, verbs etc. I still think that DEFAULTSORT is a better option though. --flyax 18:15, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Should I be using the sort argument in headword lines where this is allowed for (eg nouns - at present)? And the DEFAULTSORT template for others? Do we need a sort argument for the other headword-line templates? —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 13:59, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
That's what I'm doing for now. However, having two kinds of sorting methods isn't very efficient. Personally I'd prefer the use of DEFAULTSORT in all Greek and Ancient Greek pages but this would mean changes in the templates. We have to discuss it further. See also this discussion on GP. --flyax 16:35, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I have been adding DEFAULTSORT to my most recent edits - would you rather I didn't? —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 13:24, 6 May 2011 (UTC)
Of course not :) Please continue. In a few days I'll do the same thing (except that I'm going to do it by bot) --flyax 14:05, 6 May 2011 (UTC)


  1. Κρασί άσπρο seems less common than κρασί λευκό - can I take it that λευκός is more commonly used?
  2. carbonated has the translation ανθρακούχος (specifically seems to mean "contains carbon", the dictionary implies that ανθρακικός is more correct - what do you think? Thanks —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 14:32, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
  1. Yes, I think λευκός is more common for wines.
  2. I only know the use of ανθρακούχος for beverages. So I think that carbonated (or fizzy) is the correct translation for ανθρακούχο νερό or ανθρακούχο αναψυχκτικό. I don't know, though, the translation of ανθρακούχος χάλυβας; ανθρακικός is carbonic or carbonate. So we could say: "τα ανθρακούχα ποτά έχουν ανθρακικό (or τα ανθρακούχα ποτά έχουν ανθρακικό οξύ) - carbonated beverages contain carbonic acid". --flyax 15:25, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
I shoulnt have written two at once :) - please can you have a look at the sort query above - cheers —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 16:13, 19 April 2011 (UTC)
ανθρακούχος χάλυβας would that be carbon steel ? —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 13:34, 20 April 2011 (UTC)
According to Greek Wikipedia (w:el:Χάλυβας), yes! --flyax 18:00, 20 April 2011 (UTC)

That'd be another good one[edit]

Anything between {{l|ro| or {{t|ro| and the next }}. I dunno how easy that would be, only way I know would be to go through everything that links to {{l}} or {{t}} which... naturally would be a friggin nightmare. Otherwise, the switches themselves should be simple. No worry of a wrong switch with the |ro| specified, at least. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:06, 4 July 2011 (UTC)

I was thinking of it too. It's not very difficult to write the code for the bot but it will have to go through all entries of all languages to find all instances of ro in {{l}}, {{t}} and {{term}} templates. So I think I'll start with English words tomorrow. --flyax 22:17, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
If you use mw for those switches like I do, then l and t should be much easier than term. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:59, 4 July 2011 (UTC)
I try to figure out what on earth this mw could be, so I don't think I use it. What I usually do is stealing code from the pywikipedia framework, insert a piece of my own code and wish that everything will be ok :P --flyax 09:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)
Haha I know how that is. MW is some kind of bot tool that Conrad showed my long ago that's pretty awesome for switching stuff. One of the options is to go through pages by category or to go through by a specific linked template. Not sure if you can do both, but... eh lol. Anyway I'm not sure how or if you can use wildcards so I dunno if it would work for this project. You'd have to ask Conrad about that one. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 14:20, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Adding en:[edit]

I noticed that your bot skipped a few entries. All of them seem to be cases where the category has a sort key, such as [[Category:America|*]] or [[Category:Amphibians|japanese giant salamander]]. —CodeCat 14:54, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I know, I'll fix it. Something else: Category:Chemical elements has a problem, it might be a template that categorizes the entries to the main category. Also: This Appendix:Months of the Chinese Year should remain in the main category IMO. --flyax 15:16, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


Hi Flyax. Could you add an inflexion table to our entry for the Ancient Greek δρᾶμα (drâma) please? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 13:21, 8 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. --flyax 15:10, 8 July 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. Could you also possibly create an entry for the nominative, accusative, and vocative plural form δράματα (drámata) please? Also, can you tell me whether the first α in the various inflected forms is long or short? Thanks again. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 08:45, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
The α in δρᾶ- is certainly long, see the περισπωμένη (circumflex). There is no reason to think that it could become short in inflections. --flyax 12:12, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for that. Yeah, I knew that the circumflex could only appear on a long vowel or diphthong, but I wasn't sure whether the alpha would remain long in the inflexions (since they have the acute accent instead). One last question: do you know of any compounds of δρᾶμα (drâma) where it appears at the final element therein? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 14:04, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I found several such Modern Greek compounds for δράμα, but only one of them is without any doubt Ancient too: διαδραματίζω. --flyax 15:33, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
I see. Unfortunately, διαδραματίζω (diadramatízō) isn't the sort of thing I'm looking for, since the final element in that word is -ίζω (-ízō). I ask because I'd like to know what the accentuation would look like in compounds ending in -δραμα (-drama). — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 15:50, 9 July 2011 (UTC)
Any idea? — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 16:38, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I have no clue. --flyax 20:47, 10 July 2011 (UTC)
OK. Thanks for all your help. — Raifʻhār Doremítzwr ~ (U · T · C) ~ 23:13, 10 July 2011 (UTC)

"sort= " and "DEFAULTSORT"[edit]

I have been adding the above to new entries - a couple of points come to mind
(1) New entries: are you trawling through entries adding statements as necessary?
(2) Typos: Manually entered statements may be wrong, is any check made that existing "sort statements" are correct? cheers —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 05:39, 30 July 2011 (UTC)

Hello. What I can do is examine the dump, find errors or missing sort keys and correct the entries. This is not something that I can do on a daily basis, though. I can certainly do it once a month. Should a category of all Greek words exist, maintenance would be much easier. --flyax 07:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)
No, no! I wasn't asking ... although it might good every year or so! —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 18:08, 30 July 2011 (UTC)


I have modified the noun headword-line template to allow display of feminine forms as they are currently done in French, Russian and no doubt ot her languages, see: Template_talk:el-noun and Template:el-noun/doc. —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 11:19, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

incorrect adding to the Category Names (in my opinion)[edit]

Dear Fluax,

On July 7th 2011 you made a change to the Appendix:Names: adding [en] before the category Names ('See also' at the bottom). I can't see the amelioration to this. It is in my opinion not correct. You narrow the complete category Names to just the English names. Could you please consider your adding and alter it in the old version. Thank you, --Alasdair 21:09, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

No problem. However, if this appendix includes names in other languages it should include names in other alphabets as well. --flyax 21:24, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

French sorting[edit]

Would it be possible to run the {{DEFAULSORT}} script for French, and eventually the sorting script too? The rules used on fr: are as follows

  1. Only use the 26 letters of the alphabet with no diacritics, so à, â, á will be considered identicaly to a (and so on). In addition:
  2. Commas (') are removed. Hyphens (-) are replaced with spaces except for affixes, where they are removed all together.

A few examples: etain for étain, pause cafe for pause-café but able for -able. Capital letters are no long relevant due to an update to MediaWiki syntax. BTW unless I've missed one, all French head-word line templates allow a sort parameter. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:20, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

It will take some time to modify the script, but yes, I think I can do it. Do you prefer me to add the {{DEFAULSORT}} in all pages that include a French word or the sort parameter in headword line templates? The first option will affect other languages too. --flyax 12:29, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
If it's just as easy, just in the French template (Category:French headword-line templates). Thought it's unlikely that the defaultsort would negatively affect any other languages. But best to check on WT:BP first, eh? Mglovesfun (talk) 12:31, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
PS. Personally, I'd prefer that all commas, fullstops, hyphens and spaces be removed, but whatever ... --flyax
Oh yeah full stops, semi-colons and colons disappear. Basically the only characters used are the space and the 26 letters of the alphabet with no diacritics. Mglovesfun (talk) 12:38, 3 October 2011 (UTC)
The space, all letters without diacritics, and digits too (0...9). Lmaltier 20:21, 29 November 2011 (UTC)


Hello Flyax. I would like to nominate you for adminship. You've been here for 4 years and seem polite and level-headed. If you accept the nomination I'll start a vote for sysophood. --Rockpilot 21:51, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Thank you. I'm not that active here, so I cannot accept this honor. --flyax 21:57, 3 October 2011 (UTC)

Noun declensions (eg φούσκα)[edit]

How do you feel about the lexicographers (actually Bampiniótis) view of allowable forms and what is common usage? To quote one specific case (but only one out of many):
φούσκα: on Βικιλεξικό has been given a genitive plural, whereas Bampiniótis says that this form is absent - and Google shows that it is not as common (but still gives 9k hits - perhaps too many for just bad grammar?). A couple of suggestions for handling things:

What are you feelings? —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 16:28, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

The declension on el.wikt was added by my bot according to the indication given by Triantaffylidis dictionary (see here the code Ο25). It is not suprising that another dictionary disagree with that. Many of those genitives sound weird, yet some of them can be found in respectable newspapers like "Vima". I think that a note is necessary here, something like "The genitive plural is rather uncommon". However, if we can find a specific genitive in several good sources, it should appear in the declension table. --flyax 17:54, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

Baklahorani song transcription attempt #2[edit]

Hi, Flyax. Have you heard of Baklahorani, a recently revived carnival from Istanbul? I've first heard of it from the Wikipedia article on it. I also came across this song, which is in Greek before 2:45 and in (mostly) Turkish after that. I spread the word about it at Wikitravel because I want the website to know about it. One fellow Wikitraveller, Vidimian, had so kindly made a translation of the Turkish part when I asked for it. Now I'm asking whether you're able to transcribe and translate the Greek lyrics of it. If not, I could try the other native Greek speakers here. --Lo Ximiendo 07:23, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for the Greek lyrics? Now I'm wondering about what your opinion is about the carnival. --Lo Ximiendo 18:24, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I did enjoy the song and I'd like very much to be there and see what the carnival really looks like. That's impossible though. --flyax 21:09, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
By the way, how come the words "ala" and "o(m)pa" or something like that are sung? --Lo Ximiendo 02:00, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
I don't think I can explain it. It's not something you mean, it's something you feel and you have to say it while you dance (or sing) in order to feel it. --flyax 18:31, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
I think they're verbal gestures for glee and joy, do you? Can research on Greek music explain this? --Lo Ximiendo 22:44, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
I suppose your description is correct but I don't know anything about any research on music. Sorry. --flyax 22:59, 23 January 2012 (UTC)
Wait, how about the two Greek language lines in the Turkish lyrics that Vidimian talked about? I think I hear that the first line is the local tavern names, but what does the second line mean? --Lo Ximiendo 04:39, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

I thought it was in Turkish! Anyhow, the only word I can hear clearly is "laterna", which may be Turkish as well. The next one is, I think, kemanlar, violins. Ask your Turkish friend to listen to the song again. --flyax 06:46, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe the person who sang the Turkish lyrics could be singing the two Greek lines with an accent, but I'll go ahead anyway. --Lo Ximiendo 20:56, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Yep, I believe I hear the word kemanlar too. Maybe Vidimian misheard the two lines. --Lo Ximiendo 22:06, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


Hi there - please can you help, was my entry of αγνώριστος as an antonym for ευδιάκριτος - was that a big blunder on my part? Is the a subtlety I'm missing here? cheers Saltmarshαπάντηση 16:39, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Something is «ευδιάκριτο» when we can see it because it is big enough or the weather is clear enough or the light is sufficient. On the other hand something has become «αγνώριστο» when it has changed so much that we can not recognize it. αναγνωρίσιμος can be used as an antonym of αγνώριστος, but be careful. When something is «αγνώριστο», it is not «αναγνωρίσιμο» - unless we exagerate, something that happens very often with this word- but when something is not «αναγνωρίσιμο», it doesn't necessarily mean that it is «αγνώριστο». Another difference is that αγνώριστος is rather colloquial whereas αναγνωρίσιμος is rather formal. --flyax 17:17, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for taking the time to give that clear explanation Saltmarshαπάντηση 06:31, 28 January 2012 (UTC)


The two subdefs were hidden? That shouldn't have happened. I could see them just fine when I originally wrote the entry. Were they made visible by hitting show quotations? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:56, 12 April 2012 (UTC)

That's what I thought, but I'm not so sure any more. When I try to see the old revision, subdefs are visible again. I don't know what happened, so feel free to undo my edit. --flyax (talk) 13:47, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
I've done so. Please let me know if you experience anything like that again. While the general Wiktionary community has not really cottoned on to the utility of subsenses, I think them invaluable to writing full and coherent descriptions of words. However, their lack of general use means there could be bugs that no one is seeing. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:03, 13 April 2012 (UTC)


I've recently reworked WT:AGRC. It was getting rather stale, in my opinion. As probably the only person with a lot of knowledge of both Ancient Greek and English Wiktionary, your input would be invaluable. Please note the list of experienced grc editors at the bottom, which currently includes only me. Please feel free to add your name, if you feel comfortable doing so. Also, I've recently done some work on {{grc-cite}} which I'm pretty excited about. You can see it in action at ἀτελής (atelḗs), an entry which currently shows off some of its strengths and weaknesses. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:44, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Also, would you be willing to weigh in on this convo? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 12:12, 24 April 2012 (UTC)


Please comment at Template talk:el-decl-noun#Changing the format if you have any views — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:25, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

My el wikisource page[edit]

I recently created a user page on the Greek wikisource. I did it in English and Greek, however the Greek is just a slightly cleaned up version of what Google Translate spewed out, and I have to suspect it to be rife with errors and general ugliness. Would you possibly have some time to take a look and let me know how terrible it is? Many thanks. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 07:45, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

Google translator is unable to produce correct texts in Greek. This is my translation:
Είμαι διαχειριστής στο αγγλικό Βικιλεξικό, όπου πρωταρχικός στόχος μου είναι η αρχαία ελληνική. Η πρόθεσή μου εδώ είναι να εισάγω και να διαμορφώσω αρχαία ελληνικά κείμενα, έτσι ώστε να είναι δυνατόν να μπουν σύνδεσμοι προς αυτά στα αρχαία ελληνικά λήμματα του αγγλικού Βικιλεξικού. Για ένα παράδειγμα δείτε το «συνονόματό» μου [[λήμμα]] (κάντε κλικ στο "Show quotations" στην αριστερή μπάρα). Όπως μπορείτε να δείτε από τη "Βαβέλ" μου, δεν ξέρω ελληνικά. Οι συζητήσεις μαζί μου κατά πάσα πιθανότητα θα είναι ταχύτερες, ευκολότερες και πιο ακριβείς, αν μπορείτε να μου γράψετε στα αγγλικά. Ωστόσο, αυτό είναι ένα ελληνικό εγχείρημα και, αν δεν ξέρετε αγγλικά, ή απλά δεν θέλετε να μου γράψετε σε αυτή τη γλώσσα, θα βρω τον τρόπο να τα βγάλω πέρα.
--flyax (talk) 08:15, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
That's sort of what I figured. I will use your translation. Thank you so much. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 08:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

γάμος ομοφύλων[edit]

Can you help please - ομόφυλος seems to be an adjective - is it also a noun giving genitives with a shifted stress? Thanks — Saltmarshαπάντηση 18:41, 2 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes. In this expression it becomes a noun. Generally, every adjective that is neither a predicative nor an attribute of a noun can be considered as a noun. --flyax (talk) 17:06, 3 July 2012 (UTC)

τσιγγάνος, Αθίγγανος[edit]

Are ethnonyms capitalised in Greek? The first of those entries is currently lowercase, the second is capitalised... I figure one of them should be moved. - -sche (discuss) 11:33, 1 September 2012 (UTC)

You are right about the rule, however it seems we have here an exception. IMO, both forms of τσιγγάνος (lowercase and capitalized) can be presented here. On the other hand, ΑΘίγγανος is always capitalized. --flyax (talk) 17:42, 2 September 2012 (UTC)


Can you help please - a diminutive of large !? Meaning: 'not so big', 'medium sized' &#0133; or what? Thanks — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:59, 26 September 2012 (UTC)

Big enough, somehow big, but not very big. Also of persons: Old enough, somehow old, but not very old. An example: Είδες τον καινούριο φίλο της Μαρίας; Μεγαλούτσικος δεν είναι; - Have you seen Mary's new boyfriend? He is rather old, isn't he? --flyax (talk) 11:02, 26 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for that clear explanation Flyax. — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:03, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
You're welcome. In the entry there is a problem with the template suffix; I don't know how to fix it. --flyax (talk) 21:10, 27 September 2012 (UTC)
Thanks - fixed, I really must learn to look at an entry when I think it's finished! — Saltmarshαπάντηση 04:20, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

New terms without an inflection table[edit]

Bring Greek into line with other languages inflected terms awaiting an inflection table should be placed in the categories: Category:Greek adjectives needing declension, Category:Greek nouns needing declension and Category:Greek verbs needing conjugation. If you add any new terms to Wiktionary please could you add one of the following, as appropriate:




Thanks — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:07, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

Greek common gender nouns[edit]

If you have a view on how the headword line of "masculine/feminine" Greek nouns should indicate gender please go to Template talk:el-noun#Common gender nouns. — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:44, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Inflection tables for modern Greek verbs[edit]

I want to add conjugations to Greek verbs, if you have a view please look at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/January#Inflection_tables_for_modern_Greek_verbs and make a comment if you wish. -thanks — Saltmarshαπάντηση 06:53, 8 January 2013 (UTC)

I am now trying to find common patterns to simplify usage. So far the imperative-aorist-plural seems particularly unruly! — Saltmarshαπάντηση 15:54, 11 January 2013 (UTC)
That's true. Maybe you could use one more parameter in your template, so that users be able to add the full form if it's irregular. --flyax (talk) 23:29, 13 January 2013 (UTC)

Passive - imperative forms[edit]

Thanks for the advice above - I have managed to deal with many "active" verbs, and will remove the "do not use" notices when I have confidence that they are bombproof!

I bother you again to ask for advice from a native speaker. Please can you advise me about the imperative forms of passive verbs, my sources vary and I do not have enough experience in the language.

  1. Holton et al (Greek: comprehensive grammar...) says that imperfective forms do not exist in modern Greek - but are sometimes expressed periphrastically.
  2. Ιορδανίδου (Τα ρήματα ...) gives a plural form with a dash for the singular (for λύνομαι: —, λύνεστε)
  3. Triandaphyllidis (trans Burke) gives forms in brackets (for δένομαι: (δένου), (δένεστε))
  4. Tsiotsiou-Moore (Compendium ...) gives periphrastic singular form (for ντύνομαι: (να ντύνεσαι), ντύνεστε)

I think that the options are to print a dash, to put a form in brackets or to print a form. A footnote could be added if wanted. This will be in a template, therefore it will be difficult to have wide variation between entries. I have put a tempοrary example at User:Saltmarsh/Sandbox4#δένομαι. — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:19, 9 April 2013 (UTC)

Xoristzatziki (Passive - imperative forms) has answered - you might like to comment. — Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:29, 9 April 2013 (UTC)
I have no strong opinions about that. My impression is that 2nd sg forms do not exist at all and 2nd pl forms could very well be considered indicative forms, as Xoristzatziki suggested. --flyax (talk) 11:55, 9 April 2013 (UTC)


Hello, Flyax. Atelaes recommended that I ask you about the word δικαιωσύνη (dikaiōsúnē), which I requested an entry for at WT:RE:grc and which Atelaes does not have the resources to inform me about; he suggests that the word may be mediaeval. Are you familiar with it? I'm so meta even this acronym (talk) 00:01, 1 May 2013 (UTC)

The correct spelling in both Ancient and modern Greek is δικαιοσύνη. You can see the word here, in a medieval inscription with a lot of misspellings. --flyax (talk) 11:44, 1 May 2013 (UTC)
Thanks for your response. So, *δικαιωσύνην is just a misspelling, yes? From what year does that mediaeval inscription date? I'm so meta even this acronym (talk) 12:39, 2 May 2013 (UTC)
I couldn't say for sure which century this inscription belongs to. I wrote above that it's medieval but after rereading it I find it more probable that it belongs to the early Christian period. I'm sorry I can't be more specific, I have no sources for that, so I'm conveying to you the sense this text is giving me. --flyax (talk) 22:08, 3 May 2013 (UTC)
That's OK. I pricked up my ears at your conclusion that the inscription in question "belongs to the early Christian period". I know it's a bit of a hassle, but could you perchance translate that quotation for me please? I'm so meta even this acronym (talk) 22:18, 6 May 2013 (UTC)
Bonifatius' monument.
Suffering sorrows with patience brings the hope of salvation; all of you who desire eternal life have patience, through which many have earned life in heaven; so I the great sinner wished for a quick escape from this life, and through this wish, the change from life to justice took place; let the sleep of death be given to me along with my fellow slave in Christ, my sweetest mother.
This is not an exact translation but it's the best I can do. It seems that Bonifatius died young and perhaps he was buried next to his mother. He suffered all life's sorrows with patience and in return he is expected to earn eternal life. Death is anticipated as the passage from *unaware* (?) life to justice. --flyax (talk) 09:49, 10 May 2013 (UTC)
That is very helpful. I appreciate it very much. I'm so meta even this acronym (talk) 23:19, 17 May 2013 (UTC)


Hi there, may I ask your advice about the inflections of this pronoun? My Greek grammar (Holton, Mackridge, et al) gives the alternative forms I have shown in the entry. They describe the usage of κάποιον (as a pronoun) but not the others. These forms are hardly mentioned elsewhere (the genitive plural alternatives seem almost non-existant in Google). I would be very grateful for your comments. thanks Saltmarsh (talk) 06:50, 15 December 2013 (UTC)

Incidentally - I notice that Holton says that these forms in άλλος are used for emphasis. Saltmarsh (talk) 07:01, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
My impression is that these forms are used mainly (but not exclusively) in informal everyday speech. They are also mentioned in school textbooks, as in this small school dictionary. You can see these google results too. The parallel forms of other pronouns, ie αυτωνών (αυτών), ποιανών (ποιων), αλλωνών (άλλων), build IMHO a rather "concrete" set that cannot be ignored, especially as these forms are valuable when speakers want to avoid the confusion with their homophones (αυτόν, ποιον, άλλον, κάποιον). --flyax (talk) 11:03, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
Ευχαριστώ πολύ - I'll try to convey this in the entries! Saltmarsh (talk) 11:42, 15 December 2013 (UTC)
And thank you for the address of that web dictionary - Very interesting — Saltmarsh (talk) 06:27, 17 December 2013 (UTC)