User talk:Justinrleung/Archive 35

陽奉陰違

Baidu Baike traces its origin to Chapter 33 of Li Baojia's Officialdom Unmasked《官場現形記》. The passage below is easy to translate for the most part, though I'm still struggling with how to translate 定行 due to the very many meanings of 定 & 行:

• 余藎臣取過看時，只見上面寫的無非勸戒屬員，嗣後不准再到秦淮河吃酒住夜；倘若陽奉陰違，定行參辦不貸各等語。 [Written Vernacular Chinese, trad.]

  ---

  余荩臣取过看时，只见上面写的无非劝戒属员，嗣后不准再到秦淮河吃酒住夜；倘若阳奉阴违，定行参办不贷各等语。 [Written Vernacular Chinese, simp.]

  Yú Jìnchén qǔ guò kàn shí, zhǐ jiàn shàngmiàn xiě de wúfēi quànjiè shǔyuán, sìhòu bùzhǔn zài dào Qínhuái hé chī jiǔ zhù yè; tǎngruò yángfèngyīnwéi, dìng xíng cān bàn bùdài gè děng yǔ. [Pinyin]

  When Yu Jinchen (or Yu the loyal minister) took it and looked at it, he only saw that on it was written nothing else but a warning to the subordinates that thenceafter they were forbidden from returning to the Qinhuai river (region) to drink and stay overnight; if they'd overtly comply yet covertly defy, then [they'd be] 定行 impeached and punished and none'd be spared; or the like wordings.

So again, I need your help. Thanks in advance! Erminwin (talk) 16:18, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@Erminwin: I'm not quite sure myself, but 定 seems to mean "must" and 行 means "do" or "implement"? And 余藎臣 should be a name (Yu Jinchen). I'd also translate 只見上面寫的無非勸戒屬員 as "he only saw that what was written on it was nothing but a warning..." — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:58, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung:: I've just found out that T. L. Yang translated the passage above, as:

• "When Intendant Yu read it, he found that the writing contained nothing more than an admonition to the officials not to go the Qinhuai river to take wine and spend the night, otherwise disciplinary action would be taken against the offender (i.e. one who overtly complies yet covertly defies the admonition)."

I think I'll just translate 定行參辦不貸 as "impeachments and punishments would be certainly implemented without exception". Again, thanks!Erminwin (talk) 00:39, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

華僑

My own experience is that mainland Chinese use this to refer specifically to Chinese citizens living in other countries, while ethnic Chinese from Southeast Asia usually use this term to refer to all overseas Chinese regardless of citizenship. The dog2 (talk) 17:38, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think probably some overseas Chinese will use it in the "Chinese citizens living in other countries" sense, so it would be overly narrow to label it as "Mainland China". — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:47, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

天狗食月

I learnt this term in school. It's not used exclusively in Cantonese. 食 is the verb "to eat" in classical Chinese. The dog2 (talk) 20:25, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: But is it literary (like used in an ancient text)? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 21:49, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

OK, so you you think "formal" will be a more appropriate label then. It's not exclusively dialectal, and people will understand you if you use it while speaking standard Mandarin. The dog2 (talk) 22:13, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: Is it actually formal? It does seem to be used in Mandarin, but it feels like a non-正式 name. @RcAlex36, 沈澄心, thoughts? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:32, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

This was the form that I was taught in school, including in writing. But we'll see what the others say. The dog2 (talk) 22:38, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: What context was it taught? It certainly doesn't seem to be a scientific term. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:42, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

It wasn't a scientific text. It was just a story in our textbook where we learnt about the traditional Chinese myth about the heavenly dog eating the moon, and how the villagers would beat pots and pans to scare the heavenly dog away and get it to spit out the moon. The dog2 (talk) 22:45, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: I'd say probably "dialectal or archaic/dated" would be more appropriate? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:52, 18 May 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung, The dog2: Not formal for sure. RcAlex36 (talk) 02:26, 19 May 2022 (UTC)

Additions to Module:zh/data/st

Today I noticed a sudden increase in entries with Lua "out of memory" errors. I looked through the transclusion lists, and, aside from edits to Module:accent qualifier/data, the only changes to modules I could find were the addition of about 24k bytes of data to this module. They're probably okay and I don't know if this is really the cause, but I'd appreciate your taking a look, if you haven't already. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:55, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: The edits to Module:zh/data/st look okay, but I'm not entirely sure if these are contributing to the memory issue. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:24, 23 May 2022 (UTC)

Module:zh/data/dial-syn/撕

Hi Justin. Do you have any idea why 拆 is considered Min Nan only here? 拆 can be "to tear/rip" in Mandarin, e.g. 拆毛衣, 拆信, etc. Have I missed something? ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:47, 30 May 2022 (UTC)

@Tooironic: If I understand it properly, in Min Nan, its meaning is slightly wider. It can be used for ripping paper, books, etc. In Mandarin, it's more restricted to tearing something that was put together or closed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:08, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Thank you for clarifying. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:25, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

Subtle Vandalism

I just caught an IP from the Philippines systematically changing the numbers in {{Han char}}, like this. Luckily, they triggered a module error, which brought it to my attention. This kind of vandalism (if that's what it is- in that character the radical is written with 3 strokes, so they may be just confused) is very hard to spot for people who don't know the language well, so it's entirely possible they've done this before and gotten away with it.

Do you think it would be a good idea to have the module check for cases where the strokes for the radical and the added strokes don't match the total strokes, and add a maintenance category? Given the variation in stroke counting over such a diverse range of languages, I suppose there might be a few false positives, but on the whole I think it would be worth doing. Either that or have someone check the dumps every once in a while, if the added overhead is a problem. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:53, 31 May 2022 (UTC)

薄情

Hi Justin. Can you take a look at this entry? The Min Nan synonym does not indicate a specific sense, and when you click on it it only displays the verb "to betray someone's friendship or trust". ---> Tooironic (talk) 11:24, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

@Tooironic: I think the two senses at 薄情 could be collapsed into one, right? Most dictionaries I've checked only have one sense. The Min Nan synonym is something like 薄情 or 負心. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 20:10, 12 June 2022 (UTC)

I agree. I don't like splitting senses unless we have a good rationale for it, and all the monolingual dictionaries I've checked cover both of them in one sense line. ---> Tooironic (talk) 00:25, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Taishanese Revisited

Do you remember the user-page, that I had for Taishanese made?

It should have been made using generic terms instead of a user-name, so I fixed that issue. Apisite (talk) 10:48, 19 June 2022 (UTC)

@Apisite: I don't think those are appropriate in the actual WT namespace because they aren't actually entry requests, but mostly pronunciation requests. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:24, 20 June 2022 (UTC)

被套

Hi Justin. Could you check which sense the Min Nan synonym here is pointing to? Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 23:32, 21 June 2022 (UTC)

@Tooironic:  Done. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:35, 22 June 2022 (UTC)

Thank you. ---> Tooironic (talk) 10:24, 29 June 2022 (UTC)

A Couple of Problem Entries

Could you take a look at the two Chinese entries in CAT:E? I'm tempted to delete them as "no usable content given", but I don't know enough to decide. It looks like an easy fix for someone who knows the language, but what little I know is from a year of Mandarin 35 years ago. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:10, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

@Chuck Entz: I'm not entirely sure about the pronunciation of Y2K問題, but the module errors are fixed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 14:34, 23 June 2022 (UTC)

Module:headword/data

Hi! Could you please add Chadong (cdy) to data.no_multiword_cat in Module:headword/data and delete Category:Chadong multiword terms? 沈澄心✉ 12:19, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

@沈澄心:  Done — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 19:06, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

Paper on Singapore Teochew

I came across this paper, but I don't have access to it unfortunately. If you can get access, you might want to check if there is any vocabulary list you can extract words from for the dialect tables. The dog2 (talk) 22:04, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: Thanks. I knew about this paper before. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:08, 30 June 2022 (UTC)

執碼

Hi Justin. Was just wondering if you had come across this term before? I see it all the time on signs in Chinatown restaurants but not sure of the non-Mandarin reading and English translation. ---> Tooironic (talk) 01:39, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

@Tooironic: I'm not familiar with the term, but it seems to be Cantonese. I've made the entry based on what I've found about it. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 04:59, 1 July 2022 (UTC)

Thank you so much! ---> Tooironic (talk) 04:44, 4 July 2022 (UTC)

Singaporean Cantonese pronunciation

Also, the eu diphthong is virtually always pronounced /iɔ/ in Singapore, instead of /œː/ like in Hong Kong and Guangzhou. I think this is probably an influence from Hokkien. I wonder if we should note this somewhere. So as an example, a Singaporen Cantonese speaker will pronounce 腳 as /kiɔk̚³/ instead of /kœ̽ːk̚³/, and 香港 will be pronounced as /hiɔŋ⁵⁵ kɔːŋ³⁵/ instead of /hœ̽ːŋ⁵⁵ kɔːŋ³⁵/. The dog2 (talk) 01:34, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: I think it might be worth looking into, but I wonder if this kind of pronunciation has been documented elsewhere. I also want to know if it's the usual pronunciation by native Cantonese speakers in Singapore. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 01:45, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

I think it's mentioned somewhere on Wikipedia, but unfortunately, I am not a professional linguist so I can't produce a proper academic document. And the answer to your question is yes, it is common among native Cantonese speakers in Singapore, unless they are first generation Singaporeans whose parents are from Hong Kong. The dog2 (talk) 01:55, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

OK, there's a page here that describes it, but it's not an actual academic paper. The dog2 (talk) 01:59, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

@The dog2: Thanks. I've noticed it myself, but I can't say for sure if /ɔ/ is the right vowel to put down. I'm not very good at telling vowels apart so I'm not confident in putting these in unless someone else has documented it in IPA. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:06, 8 July 2022 (UTC)

Move request

Could you please move Module:zh/data/ltc-pron/晧 to Module:zh/data/ltc-pron/皓 and move Module:zh/data/ltc-pron/鑵 to Module:zh/data/ltc-pron/罐? Thanks. 沈澄心✉ 15:24, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@沈澄心: I've moved 鑵 to 罐. I haven't moved 晧 because it's still being used on the entry at 晧. Should 晧 be turned into a {{zh-see}} entry? — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:13, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

教育部異體字字典 states that 晧 is a variant form of 皓. --沈澄心✉ 16:29, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

@沈澄心: Okay, great, moved as well. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:33, 11 July 2022 (UTC)

鹩

Hey Justin, the redirect to 鷯 is producing the weird redirect result text (“3=鷦鷯”). Could you look into the matter? Thanks! Bumm13 (talk) 11:08, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

Also, the redirect at 鹴 produces (“dot=”); not sure if this can be easily fixed or not. Bumm13 (talk) 11:22, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

@Bumm13: I've tried to fix them with a temporary solution, where any equal sign in the extracted gloss would be suppressed. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 17:41, 16 July 2022 (UTC)

@Justinrleung: Another template weirdness at 焘 showing "(“to illuminate everything; }}}} to cover; to envelop; etc.”)." (four right curly brackets) Bumm13 (talk) 10:09, 21 July 2022 (UTC)

熧

熧 has the definition 火行穴中. Would "Within a fire pit" (or "inside") work for the definition. Thanks! Bumm13 (talk) 22:01, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

@Bumm13: I think it means something like "for fire to move in a pit; to have fire in a pit". I've added something to the entry. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 22:11, 17 July 2022 (UTC)

燆

This character has a definition "火行"; I can't quite parse what it means. Any help, as always, is appreciated. Bumm13 (talk) 09:43, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

@Bumm13: It's hard to know exactly since it's not really used anywhere, only a gloss in ancient dictionaries. I've put in what I think it would mean. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 16:32, 18 July 2022 (UTC)

嗱嗱臨/啦啦臨 and 嗱嗱聲/啦啦聲

I think 嗱嗱 is way more commonly used compared to 啦啦:

• google:嗱嗱臨 -lalamove has 113,000 results. Of the seven pages displayed most of them are relevant uses.
• google:啦啦臨 -lalamove has 31,000,000 results, but from the first page onwards they are all false positives of various combinations of 啦 and 臨 or names, due to their common use. Even for the majority of the relevant results they use 嗱嗱臨 or 拿拿臨.
• google:拿拿臨 -lalamove has 38,900,000 results, but from the sixth page onwards they are also false positives, mostly from .tw websites or non-Cantonese .cn websites.
• google:嗱嗱林 -lalamove has 134,000 results, but from the eighth page onwards they are completely irrelevant, and among seven pages around half are other uses.
• google:啦啦林 -lalamove has 110,000,000 results, but the only relevant ones are Wiktionary.
• google:拿拿林 -lalamove has 193,000,000 results, but it is an online game, the only relevant ones are Wiktionary.
• google:嗱嗱聲 -lalamove -李克勤 -譚詠麟 -左麟右李 has 684,000 results, results are cut off at the eighth page, 80% of them are relevant ones. Note that it is also the name of a song by 左麟右李, which would increase the number of uses.
• google:啦啦聲 -lalamove -李克勤 -譚詠麟 -左麟右李 has 129,000,000 results but from the third page onwards they are also irrelevant. Most of the results on the first few pages are related to 啦啦隊
• google:拿拿聲 -lalamove -李克勤 -譚詠麟 -左麟右李 has 166,000,000 results, but from the eighth page onwards they are also false positives, also mostly from .tw websites or non-Cantonese .cn websites.

The most common pronunciation of 啦 is laa1 whereas 嗱/拿 is naa4. Both are approximations of the sound laa4, but since a n-l merger is common but a tone 1-4 merger is never heard of, I think 嗱/拿 is better in this case. Also note the colocation between 啦啦 and 啦啦隊. It should either be 嗱/拿, but definitely not 啦. -- Wpi31 (talk) 05:49, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Wpi31: While it might be true that the 嗱 versions are more common at least online, 啦啦聲/啦啦声 is used in multiple print Cantonese sources:

• Matthews & Yip, 2013, Cantonese: A Comprehensive Grammar, p. 209
• 饒、歐陽、周, 2009, 廣州話方言詞典 p. 121
• 劉, 2008, 廣州話普通話詞典, p. 220
• 麦、谭, 2016, 实用广州话分类词典, p. 296
• 欧阳、饶、周、周, 2005, 广州话、客家话、潮汕话与普通话对照词典, p. 96
• 張、倪, 1999, 港式廣州話詞典, p. 183

It's also used by Stephen Li in his Taishanese dictionary under 啦(啦)声. Note that it is uncommon in Taishan to have n/l merger.

啦 read as laa4 is also used as a particle, like "你返學啦(laa4)？", so it's not totally out of the blue as a character representing laa4. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:36, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Thanks, probably an oversight by me due to the over-representation of Hong Kong Cantonese on the Internet. 嗱 seems to be used by only newer sources such as words.hk, and it seems Matthews & Yip (though the 2013 version is a reprint) and CantonDict (which are in more sources) uses 啦, so I'm fine with 啦 instead. Wpi31 (talk) 07:46, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

@Wpi31: Great, thanks for understanding. Just to have even more support for 啦, I will also note that sources on Dongguan dialect have 啦啦聲. (Dongguan dialect does not have the n/l merger AFAIK, but a ŋ-l merger):

• 詹、陳, 1997, 東莞方言詞典, p. 14 (/l/ is pronounced as [ŋ] by the dictionary's consultant.)
• 李, 2013, 东莞方言分类词典, p. 440 (/l/ recorded as <l> in this dictionary.) — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 07:55, 19 July 2022 (UTC)

Get it

Hello. get it can also mean “have you heard” after teaching or after giving an order. I added it. VincentPH (talk) 02:19, 22 July 2022 (UTC)

@VincentPH: I don't think it means "have you heard". I can see it used as "were you listening", but I'm not sure if that's the actual definition or an inference. — justin(r)leung _{{ (t...) | c=› }} 02:31, 22 July 2022 (UTC)