User talk:Qehath: difference between revisions

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where are you from?
where are you from?
# Originally, currently, psychologically or spiritually?
# Why do you ask?
# Identify yourself or be destroyed!!!
: :D — <font face="Lucida console"><small>['''[[User:Dick Laurent|Ric]]''' [[User talk:Dick Laurent|Laurent]]]</small></font> — 22:24, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

Revision as of 22:24, 12 September 2011

Be warned. If you bite, I bite back.

Anything is possible if you don't know what the bloody hell you're talking about.

Archive 2006 | 2007 | 2008 | 2009 | 2010

aici - Romanian pronunciation

Hi - I think this is your change - (IPA: [ajʧʲ]) - but the Romanian wiktionary now has /a'iʧʲ/; forvo has and with what I think is a hiatus; the etymology section has the derivation from ad + (stressed) hic. I don't know Romianian and you do, so I'll leave it to you to decide whether the pronunciation on the English wiktionary should be changed to /a'iʧʲ/. Pinitou 03:12, 24 April 2011 (UTC) P.S. puts the stress mark on 'i', which, it appears, means /a.'i/


Hi Opiaterein, My name is Robbie_SWE and I'm an administrator at the Romanian Wiktionary (we kind of miss you in the Romanian Wiktionary by the's been a couple of months since I last saw you active ;-).

It has been brought to my attention that the user Wernescu has been active around here as well. Unfortunately Wernescu (who I believe to be the same person as BaicanXXX...a controversial user, blocked a couple times for his insolence towards the project and especially me in the role as administrator) seems to be adding erroneous Romanian vocabulary (e.g. nonexistent words, deliberately excluding diacritics etc.) to the English Wiktionary.

He has operated in a similar fashion back in the Romanian Wiktionary. His behaviour has caused complaints from other users, including myself. I have, alongside other users/administrators, brought this to his attention but received little attention from his behalf. I'm asking you to please keep an eye on him or at least let me know how he has been contributing here.

Hope to see you soon! Best Regards,

--Robbie SWE 13:26, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

I had already been a bit iffy about some of his editing, so thanks for letting me know about this. :)
I had no idea I did that much at Romanian wiktionary, I always felt like I only added a little bit D: Thanks, Robbie :)— [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 13:44, 19 August 2010 (UTC)

Place name, etc.

Hi. I suggest you see my talk page to talk about the place name template you asked me to make. Bye. --Daniel. 23:30, 19 August 2010 (UTC)


Hello Opii, how are you? Well, this time I'm bothering you for a personal request:)a My friend's going to get a tattoo and he asked me of which language he should have it. Can you please tell me what "she exists as long as her presence is felt" means in Romanian? I don't want it to sound stupid as he'll have it forever; so if you have a better idea to translate with a similar meaning, I'd appreciate that :) P.S. Do you have any idea how it'd be in Latin? Thank you so much in advance! Sinek 17:13, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

My Romanian was never especially sophisticated, so while I could give you a direct translation, it probably wouldn't be very poetic... I would ask User:Robbie SWE about that. For Latin, I would probably ask User:EncycloPetey. Sorry I can't be of more help :( — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 17:18, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
Noo thank you so much! It'll help me so much! Sinek 17:35, 20 August 2010 (UTC)

Italian IPA

Hi Opiaterein, I noticed in your edit of figlio that you've replaced the /ʎʎ/ with the IPA length mark. The reason many IPA transcriptions for Italian use the double consonant rather than the length mark, especially in phonemic transcriptions, is to show that the gemination of those consonants occurs across syllable (and sometimes word) boundaries. The consonant is present in the onset of the syllable as well as in the coda of the preceding syllable. Inconsistencies also arise when transcribing words that are stressed on a syllable with a geminated onset. Just thought I'd let you know that there is a reason for it. Happy editing! --Andrew C talk (afc0703) 20:33, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

I could complain a lot about that, especially since there was no marker of syllable break (/./)
Anyway, I think it's pretty natural to geminate before attempting to stress a vowel, so I think it's safe to mark stress, then put a consonant, a lengthener and a vowel... — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 20:46, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I see your point; there may be some ambiguity without the syllable break marker, but I assumed that to understand phonemic transcriptions in general one has to already have an understanding of how the phonology of the language in question works. For your other point: if you take a word like rettore (stressed on the "o"), I gather you would transcribe it as /reˈtːore/ instead of the typical /retˈtore/. Am I right? --Andrew C talk (afc0703) 21:31, 26 August 2010 (UTC)
I very very very infrequently find rules that describe in detail the syllabation of any language, so... I don't know how useful understanding such things really is, except in the few languages where it's truly consequential.
But yes, /retˈtore/ looks rather awkward to me and /reˈtːore/ seems much more intuitive. I think ː exists for a reason and limiting it to vowels is just odd. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 22:13, 26 August 2010 (UTC)

Bengali Transliteration

For transliteration of অনেক, I followed National Library at Kolkata romanization which is a standard for all Indic languages. I understand very well that Bengali does not sound exactly same as Hindi . But they are both same alphabet. Also as you know transliteration is not same as pronunciation. As mentioned in the article transliteration, "From an information-theoretical point of view, transliteration is a mapping from one system of writing into another, word by word, or ideally letter by letter. Transliteration attempts to use a one-to-one correspondence and be exact, so that an informed reader should be able to reconstruct the original spelling of unknown transliterated words."

So both and should be transliterated as anek not ônek (অনেক) for Bengali and anek (अनेक) for Hindi, because even though they sound little different, they have the same spelling. Prometheus.pyrphoros 18:00, 28 August 2010 (UTC)

We are not a library in Kalkuta. Devanagari is not Bangla-lipi. Bengali is not Hindi or Kashmiri or Gujarati and to treat them all the same way might work for a comparative work, but wiktionary is not a comparative dictionary. I'm more than happy to ban you if you'd rather try to make wiktionary yours than follow the suggestions of experienced editors, which would be a terrible shame since we have no Bengali editors. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 18:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
  1. It's not just a library in Kolkata. It's the largest one in India, and national repository.
  2. Misspelling the Kolkata to Kalkuta (also the meaning in Hindi becomes ofensive) clearly shows disrespect.
  3. A change with proper justfication, should be open to discussion, rather threatening with Ban!
  4. cf. Indic alphabet, it shows that both alphabets are same
  5. Moreover.. the point in discussion is transliteration and not pronunciation.. so what is the point in differentiating?
  6. If you are open to dicsussion.. why not take it to a proper page and lets get a concensus.
  7. Wikitionary Bengali is still pretty much growing and all the standards set already need not to be accurate.

Prometheus.pyrphoros 11:11, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

You don't even follow your own transliteration rules. Template:Beng by your system would be Kalakātā, since transliteration is about the letters and not the pronunciations. Template:Beng wouldn't be the anek that you keep changing it to, but anēka (notice the fact that there's no Template:Beng at the end. and "e" is for Dravidian Template:Knda.) So clearly you're not following your own rules, and if you keep changing Bengali transliterations to pan-Indian nonsense, I'm unfortunately going to have to ban you for a short time. I have more important things to do than argue something so nonsensical. Now if you have a real interest in editing here, let me know so I can point you to something of consequence. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:23, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I am not really trying to go into a edit war here! But KOLKATA (formarly Calcutta) is the official name of the city, not transliteration. I am not understanding why you are trying to pick up a fight here. I have already opened a discussion page in Wiktionary_talk:Bengali_transliteration, request you to give your input there instead of making treats to ban me in every second sentence. That you don't even recognize the official name of capital of West Bengal and hub of Bengali culture and literature clearly shows your level of knowledge of Bengal and Bengali. If you are really interested to help, I would suggest take inputs from native speakers of the language, and do not set some arbitrary standard of your own. BTW, I see that WT:Bengali transliteration page is solely created by you, just 15 days ago and you admit that you only have basic knowledge of Bengali.
Yes I am interested, and you can help me to start, even though I dont agree with you on transliteration part. Prometheus.pyrphoros 15:12, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I based Wiktionary:Bengali transliteration on Wikipedia's transliteration, phonology, input from native speakers who are more interested in Bengali as a solitary, independent unit than as an appendix to Hindi and other Indo-Aryan languages, common usage and common sense. Normal people online do not use your system to communicate in Bengali in the latin alphabet online. You calling Calcutta "the hub of Bengali culture and literature" seems to indicate a disrespect for Bangladesh, which I believe has more Bengali speakers than West Bengal. You indicate that the library of calcutta's system is the "Indian national standard" - well, Bangladesh doesn't fall under the "Indian national standard". You are doing a disservice to users looking for Bengali if you do not include IPA with transliterations as they will likely be confused about pronunciation - trying to pronounce Template:Beng as "sahayya". If you don't know IPA and can't contribute accurate pronunciations, then transliteration is the only option to show how to say words. If you want to know how to read it - then learn how to read it.
Helping you to start is rather funny. Tell me, what is your plan for making templates to show forms of Bengali nouns and verbs? Do you think it's possible someone has already done this? — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 15:34, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
  1. No disrespect meant for Bangladeshi people. It's ridiculous to even think like that! And I wrote Kolkata,(a) hub not Kolkata, the hub.
  2. I did not mention only National standard for India, but International standard also (ISO 15919), both of which differ from the current rule that you have mentioned.
  3. Normal people what type in online communication does not constitute standard.
  4. I agree with you that IPA needs to be included, but arbitrary transliteration doesn't solve that problem. I would try to include IPA in Bengali words.
  5. A lot of people has put a lot of effort to form some standards for transliteration, why to try to redo things already done, and deviate from a International standard?
  6. People need to know either IPA or the rule you are following for transliteration, in both cases they have to go through the rules. Can't just interpret on their own. How do you differentiate between 'o', 'O', 'ô' or 'ō' if you don't have some example, some rule. So your justification for creating own transliteration does not hold true.
  7. Why don't we take this discussion to another page in Wikitionary namespace, rather than discussing in userspace, that will help any future editors, and as I said I want to put effort to improve Bengali entries, as you also do. Prometheus.pyrphoros 17:04, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I don't think you realize that "standards" mean nothing to me if they are only practiced by linguistic elite. I've said your transliteration is a disservice to people who want to learn Bengali to actually communicate - not to write literature or work for the government. So I don't care what the Calcutta standard is, or what the international standard is... I absolutely refuse to use a transliteration for Bengali that was designed to fit around Hindi or Tamil so they could all use the same happy transliteration system - or one that only benefits comparative linguists. Using the transliteration systems that you describe would not benefit people communicating online in the least. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 17:15, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
I definately realize that. But again and again it's coming to what I think and what you think. Don't you agree it should be put into a page for more people to discuss? And decide upon what the concensious (WP:CONS) there? That's the idea behind a 'Wiki' right? (WP:FIVE) Prometheus.pyrphoros 17:43, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Yeah, let's have a bunch of people who have no experience with Indic languages discuss how to handle said languages. That sounds like an excellent idea :p I only know one person here who does work on any Indo-Aryan languages, and he limits himself to Hindustani. I'm not sure he'd be comfortable commenting on Bengali. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 17:51, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
Not really, what about native speakers and current active editors (both) in Bengali Wikipedia? Prometheus.pyrphoros 18:00, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
We don't really like having people come here to tell us how to do things. It's sad that we're wasting so much time on transliteration when there's so much to be done. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 18:03, 29 August 2010 (UTC)

Hello again!

Hiii! How is it going dude? Well I want to improve the Turkish conjugation template and have a new one for the verbs that end in a vowel. And in order to make my evil plans come true, I need your great help! I prepared some info about it, but it became freeaaaking long :/ Do you have time to do that? When you do, please tell me. And should I type here as a message or send you via an e-mail? See you soon! Sinek 14:13, 4 September 2010 (UTC)

You can email me if you want to, that's fine. I don't remember how much different the ones that end in vowels are... I'll have to find my little 'elementary turkish' book. Those conjugation templates are huge, though T_T
I have to change the long strings of code in the conjugation templates to {{tr-v2}}, {{tr-v2-v4}} and {{tr-v4}}... That'll help their size. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:34, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
I think I explained every rule or every possible conjugation. Or, every possible stuation that came to my mind. So, it may be a bit boring :/ Anyway, please take a look at it, now sending. Sinek 14:48, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
PS. Holycrap! I've just noticed that I've never sent an e-mail someone from Wiktonary. How can I do that? Sinek 14:50, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
Really? Haha just find "E-mail this user" in the toolbox to the left side :) — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:56, 4 September 2010 (UTC)
LOL Thank you so much xD Achieved! Sinek 15:24, 4 September 2010 (UTC)


Hi. What's the difference between মৃত্য়ু (mrityu) and মৃত্যু (mritju) ? In Turkish Wiktionary মৃত্য়ু is listed as "death"; and here, death is মৃত্যু. Actually I couldn't see any differences between two spellings but I don't trust my eyes xD When I type মৃত্য়ু, I get no results. Soo I'm sure there's a detail xD Maybe an alternative spelling? Sinek 21:02, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

The first uses the letter য়, the second uses the letter . They differ only by one dot. -- Prince Kassad 21:06, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I'm pretty sure Template:Beng is an incorrect spelling. The spelling goes Template:Beng, and the Template:Beng makes the thin S shaped thing at the end. The keystroke for Template:Beng is the same key for Template:Beng, but Template:Beng is with the shift key held. I think Template:Beng is just a typo.
Template:Beng = good
Template:Beng = bad — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 21:50, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Thank you very muuuch :) Sinek 22:12, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
My pleasure, man. :) — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 22:16, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
One more question, বন্ধুত্ব (bôndhut) is bôndhuttô or bôndhutbô ? In বন্ধু (bôndhu), it's transliterated as bôndhutbô, and in বন্ধুত্ব, it's bôndhuttô. Sinek 14:49, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
I forgot to change that. It's pronounced bôndhuttô, though Template:Beng is a conjunct of Template:Beng (t) and Template:Beng (b). — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:57, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks once more :) Sinek 14:58, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
Still my pleasure. :) — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:59, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

ș and ş

See also: Wiktionary:Beer parlour archive/2010/August#Orthographic Change in the Romanian Wikipedia Project: Its Effects on Wiktionary, Wiktionary talk:About Romanian#Cedilla vs. Comma

I've noticed that here on Wiktionary ş and ţ (with cedilla) has been uniformly used for Romanian, as is perhaps most common on the Internet, albeit ș and ț (with comma below) is perhaps more official (for whatever reason that may be); but recently entries with the latter have been created by WernescU (talkcontribs) (see for example șef, Sciția). In any case, it would be preferable to decide on a standard. – Krun 11:22, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

I've thought a lot about this and have come to the conclusion that I don't care quite enough to really do anything about it. The one person I could think to ask to switch the previous uses of the cedilla characters to the "correct" (but still not widely supported) comma characters hates me, so until I hear that the comma characters are widely supported and won't show up as squares in such simple programs as notepad, then I'll be more concerned. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 13:15, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
But if they're not switched, all entries must use the cedilla. There will be double entries otherwise. – Krun 17:17, 7 September 2010 (UTC)
How many Romanian editors do we have? :) — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 17:38, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

unknown language

United States = (sh) Sjedinjene Američke Države ??? [1]--Sokac121 13:21, 20 September 2010 (UTC)


I see you have added Bengali translations meaning "death" at lifeless. Alternatively, wouldn't it be better to translate only the entry dead, and adding {{trans-see|dead}} at lifeless? --Daniel. 03:22, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Not necessarily... one of the ones I added for Bengali is equivalent to dead, but the others literally do mean "without life", as does the German leblos. So since their components do mean "lifeless", I don't see why they shouldn't be translated there. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:04, 26 September 2010 (UTC)

Our new Romanian editor

I've been trying to have a conversation with WernescU (talkcontribs) about encoding, Wiktionary conventions, etc., without any success, as it seems he does not answer any comments at all. I suspect that he doesn't even understand English properly (he has no Babel box). Could you please join in? Maybe he would answer Romanian? If no answer is forthcoming then, I think a short block might be in order. – Krun 08:53, 27 September 2010 (UTC)

Have a look at an older conversation regarding the same user: User talk:Opiaterein#Request. I fear he may just not be wiktionary material. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:45, 27 September 2010 (UTC)


[2] - You should confine it only to ==Russian== sections, if that can be done. --Ivan Štambuk 22:25, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

I wish I knew how :( — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 22:41, 8 October 2010 (UTC)

Better letter

Hi I still think that ā is more appropriate to be used, as similarly ē and ō can be used to write Dari Persian. e.g gōšt گوشت, sēb سیب. Long o and long e has been shifted to /u:/ and /i:/ in Iranian Persian wheareas they are presereved in Dari Persian. To have a better romanization solution for Dari and Persian, vowels a, e, o, ā, i, u, ē, ō are more suitable.--Companionship 15:32, 10 October 2010 (UTC)

How do you do it in America?

OK, I have no one else to ask. How do you Americans drink hot chocolate topped with whipped cream? See in this picture. Do you eat the cream with something, drink it? Does your mug (face) get smeared with it in the process?

This is not a joke, I am trying out things I see in American movies. --Vahag 19:35, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

I think different people do different things... I don't really like the whipped cream, but if I forget to say "no whipped cream" and they give it to me with that crap on it, then I just stir it into the chocolate.
I think some people just try to drink it without doing anything with it and they get it all over their noses and whatnot, though they might just be doing it for attention :D But really I'm not sure if there's a "right" way to do it.
I remember once, I told my Romanian friend I was going to go eat something, and he asked what? So I told him I was making a peanut butter and jelly sandwich, and he said "oh I've never had one of those, I've only seen them in movies" like they were advanced technology or something. I almost died :D — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 19:46, 24 October 2010 (UTC)



Don't know if you watch my talk page but I replied with a link, which is much better and has stresses. I'm not so good with templates but I can help by checking the results if you decide to continue with Belarusian. --Anatoli 22:22, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

Haha thanks for reminding me. I thought I'd replied to that, but looking at the date, I think that was party night D: — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 22:28, 4 November 2010 (UTC)


Hello, I am assisting with Navajo entries and Stephen G. Brown and I have been wondering where you got the spelling of the entry béézh. It seems to be a non-standard spelling of béésh, which is found in no dictionaries we have access to. Thanks very much for any information you could provide about where you found this word, in order to start the béézh entry. Best, 03:02, 7 December 2010 (UTC)

I actually don't speak a word of Navajo. If I added it, there's a 100% chance it's because I found it somewhere on Wikipedia. Irony... anyway I hope that helps. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 03:09, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
Alright, I've searched Wikipedia for "péːʒ" and "béézh" and have found nothing that links my entry to...anything on Wikipedia. I'm assuming something on Wikipedia has changed, but if "béézh" by itself is in fact not a valid word, I'm hoping it will be deleted without hesitation. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 03:15, 7 December 2010 (UTC)
In w:Navajo language, there is a line that reads: bi- (3rd person) + béézh "knife". It probably came from this. This line might be a little confusing, since béézh is not a separate word, but only exists with a possessive pronoun prefix, as in bibéézh. —Stephen (Talk) 15:43, 1 January 2011 (UTC)


Hi there. Do you think the newly-craeted page zindigī is the transliteration of ज़िंदगी (zindgī)? My lack of knowledge of Hindi prevents me from ascertaining the veracity of this surmise of mine, but ज़िंदगी (zindgī) is found at life#Translations. However, the Devanagari spelling shows no trace of the second i. Is zindigī wrong (and instead zindagī) or there exists also the word ज़िंदिगी (zindigī)? The uſer hight Bogorm converſation 10:33, 11 December 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Zindigi is wrong. Doing a simple Google search will yield only entries on blogs and forums. No dictionary lists the word as zindigi. --Dijan 11:53, 11 December 2010 (UTC)


I notice that in the table structure in Template:el-decl-adj the header cell characters "!" towards the end - within the if-note structure - are contained within curly brackets thus "{{!}}". Is this because they are in a conditional statement or what? Please can you explain. Thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 07:18, 15 December 2010 (UTC)

That's the only place I've seen {{!}} before, with conditional sections of tables... But I've never worked on this template specifically.
Alright, yeah, after looking at it, that's exactly what it is. You need the {{!}} to hide the vocatives and comparatives if they aren't specified. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 15:55, 16 December 2010 (UTC)
thanks —Saltmarshαπάντηση 05:55, 17 December 2010 (UTC)
My pleasure, mate. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 13:46, 17 December 2010 (UTC)


I have recently created a few thousand entries with {{infl|sv|noun|g=c}} and now you are changing this to {{sv-noun|g=c}}. Apparently, my conscious choice to avoid sv-noun is something you disagree with? Can you explain which problem you are trying to solve? For whom have I been creating a problem? --LA2 21:00, 16 January 2011 (UTC)

{{infl}} is never supposed to be used when there's an alternative available. --Yair rand (talk) 21:41, 16 January 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, Yair. It's pretty much not within my power to be concise, but you pretty much summed it all up there :D — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 01:15, 17 January 2011 (UTC)

IPA gheggian k [q or k] anmik

Hi, I speak Albanian, and I'm sure that the gheggian K is pronounced [q], they are some word where we use [k], but for anmik is [q]... In Gheggian (K have two pronunciation [q & k]) Thanks

Read This I explain why C/Q Ellênika became K in Byzantinë...

The Q in Albania became [ʨ], because qoppa [q] ancient value 100 became Tshima value 100 Ϭ/ϭ in Coptic numerology, writed in Cyrillic Ҁ/ҁК/кЌ/ќ...

The value 90 is not Qoppa but San I also believe that the value 90 in modern Greek shaped Ϟ/ϟ is a variant of San Ϻ ϻ [ʂ / ʦ] and not of the qoppa Ϙ/ϙ [q], in Greek a variant form of qoppa exist and look like the Cyril one... Gmazdên 12:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Ewoluþion of alphabet
0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 90 100 200 300 400 500 600 700 800 900 1000
Ellênic Α Β Γ Δ Ε Ϝ Ζ Η Θ Ι Κ Λ Μ Ν Ξ Ο Π Ϻ Ϙ Ρ Σ Τ Υ/Ͷ Φ Χ Ψ Ϡ Ω
Etruscan 𐌀 𐌁 𐌂 𐌃 𐌄 𐌅 𐌆 𐌇 𐌈 𐌉 𐌊 𐌋 𐌌 𐌍 𐌎 𐌏 𐌐 𐌑 𐌒 𐌓 𐌔 𐌕 𐌖 𐌘 𐌗 𐌙 𐌜 𐌚
Old Latin A B C D E F Z H I K L M N O P Q R S T V X
Persian ا ب(b) ج(j) / گ د(d) ه(h) ڤ ز(z) / ژ ح() ط() ي(y) ك(k) ل(l) م(m) ن(n) س(s) ع(ʿ) پ ص() / چ ق(q) ر(r) ش(š) ت(t) / ث() و(w) ف(f) خ() ذ() ظ() غ()
Byzantine α β γ δ ε ϛ ζ η θ ι κ λ μ ν ξ ο π ϟ ρ σς τ υ φ χ ψ ω
Cyrillic Ъ А Б Г/Ѓ/Ҕ Д Е В З/Ж И Ѳ І К Л М Н Ѯ О П Ч/Џ Ҁ/Ћ Р С/Ш Т У/Ы Ф Х 𐌙 Ц/Ѕ Ѡ
Phônetic [ə] [a] [b↔v] [g↔ɣ] [d↔ð] [e↔ɛ] [v↔f] [z↔ʒ] [ɛ↔i] [t↔θ] [ɪ↔y] [k↔x] [l] [m] [n] [ks↔gz] [o] [p] [sˤ↔ʂ] [ʧ↔ʤ] [q↔c, ʨ] [r] [s↔ʃ] [θ↔t] [u↔w]/[y] [f↔ɸ] [qʰ↔χ→kʰ] [ps] [zˤ↔ʐ] [ʦ↔ʣ] [ɔ]
Thanks for correcting me, I hate making mistakes. In Gheg is the letter q still [tɕ]? (Actually, I write q and gj as [cɕ] and [ɟʑ], because there's definitely a noticeable difference between those sounds and the [tɕ] and [dʑ] in other languages, but that's not really important at the moment) — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:24, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for you add, to tell you truth I don't know the sound [c], but I believe that [c & ʨ] are same sound Ћћ / Ćć in Serbian and Ќ/ќ in Macedonian. The GJ is [ɟ] Ѓѓ Macedonian, [ʑ] is a sound that I don't know, but Serbian use in Ђђ / Đđ [dʑ]. Gmazdên 14:45, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Two more questions: First one is, are you sure it's [q] (pronounced further back in the mouth), or [c] (palatal, pronounced close to the front)? I notice you mentioned a comparison to Ќ, which is palatal in Macedonian (I think [c]).
Second question, in Gheg are the forms anmiq, anmiku and anmiqtë correct? — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Yes, I speak arab and I know difference between Kaf/Kappa & Qaf/Qoppa, and in Skopje, we use [q] sound, some word use [k], but for this one i'm sur is [q] & not [k], because in old latin C is [g / q], like Caius → Gaius & Pecunia → Pequnia Reference. I mention Ќ, cause i explain that Qoppa became Tshima and in modern macedonian there is no Qoppa Ҁҁ but only Кк that variate has Ќќ.

I never eard these form, but perhaps other city use it, in Skopje we use anmik, they are 47 dialect in all Shqipëri. Gmazdên 14:50, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

How much do you know about Tosk? That's the only form of Albanian I'm really comfortable using, I know very very little about Gheg — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 14:55, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I have to confront toskan dialect using electronic dictionary (for my albanian translation), and I noticed that those word were really different from gheg & root origin, I readed history of this language I learned that he was imposed in 1947 by Enver Hoxha. I don't like this dialect, because I speak Gheg, French, English and I'm studying Latin so I constated, that the toskian is realy falsified language based upon a code that I deciphered. Gmazdên 15:00, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

It might not be as conservative, but I still like Tosk :p — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 15:05, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

It's albanian, but realy deviated one. To tell the truth French, Portuguese, English, Italian, Spanish, Rumanian, Albanian are all Latin deviation. But the Tosk, is realy deformed variant of Gheg & Latin. I noticed that S became SH, TH became T, PR became MBR. In french -θɪɔn became -sɪɔn and in English -ʃɪɔn , based on letter Þþ [ʃo] who is [ʃ] in greek and [θ] in latin. Other exemple, the Latin G [ʒ] became [ʤ] in English. It's a code and it come from hebrew / arabian alphabet where letter have two valor. Gmazdên 15:13, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I think Tosk might just be like English. It's not a Romance language, but it has a lot of words derived from Latin. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 15:14, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Tosk are more Greek (Orthodox) than Latin (Roman Catholic), but still they are Shqiptar and first earthling so we are brother. To tell the truth (truni) Shqip has a lot of word from Greek, Latin, Persian, Arab, Slavic, Hindu and others, therefore, it's interesting language made of a lot of source, this make his richness. But you should admit, that based upon root, some word are falsificated by a code, that only the temple and priest knows and that I deciphered and I want to teach to anyone. To know this code check Armenian alphabet east & western variant, look Georgian to. Gmazdên 15:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

The first earthling... Amazing... Hi Opi! :) --Dijan 17:33, 31 January 2011 (UTC)
Hey Dijan, haven't talked to you in a while :) Hope all's well — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 17:38, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

If you speak shqip, why did you not add babel level in your user page ? Do you readed my Mbret/Mret & Unë discussion in my user page ? What should I do, to keep information that I added without being removed by the reader of book of Vladimir Orel ? And about anmik why do not use the ISO code that gived today Stephen to me : "Gheg Albanian is aln, and Tosk is als" ? Gmazdên 19:51, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

It's not on my page because I'm sq-1 and I only keep things on my page that I speak at at least level 2 unless I'm focusing on them currently. You can look at User:Opiaterein/Babel for more things I speak in small amounts.
I don't use als and aln because I don't use the headers ==Gheg Albanian== and ==Tosk Albanian==, I only use the code sq for Albanian. Gheg and Tosk both go under there. If there are differences, I use the templates {{Gheg}} and {{Tosk}} on the definition line. You can see that in use at anmik and armik. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 21:48, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

Ok but Tosk is Standard of Albania, and Gheg have been adopted has standard language in Media of Kosovo, also this variant is used in Macedonia and north Albania & South Montenegro, so perhaps we should make a difference between those (Localisation) ? You didn't have advice about my problem with remover of my add ? Are you an admin ? Gmazdên 22:15, 31 January 2011 (UTC)

I noticed you add conjugation of Pastroj, I want to add mbroj/mbron (tosk) & pruj/prun (gheg) : protects, but the conjugation of Prun is not the same has pastroj, What syntax should I use ? The Prun use U instead of O like :

unë ti ai/ajo ne ju ata/ato
present pruj prun prun prujmi pruni prujnë
imperfect pruja pruje prunte??? prunim ??? prunit ??? prunin ???
simple past pruva pruvê prujti ??? pru??? pru??? pru???
future do të pruj do të prujsh do të prujë do të prujmë do të prujni do të prujnë

And so on... Gmazdên 11:25, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

I don't know if Gheg verbs are conjugated exactly the same way as Tosk verbs but pastroj is an -oj verb so it needs a different conjugation template than one that ends in -uj. Category:Albanian conjugation-table templates contains all the Albanian conjugation templates that we currently have. — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 15:07, 1 February 2011 (UTC)
Hm, could you look at âsht to check that example sentence, and fix it if it's incorrect? — [ R·I·C ] opiaterein — 15:13, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, checked you added Asht, in Macedonia we write it ësht like in Shqipëri but we pronounces [ɑ̃ʃt] & not [ãʃt] (you need to add etymology from latin EST → EŠT → ËSHT → ÃSHT). Also friend is not ANMIKI (inimicus : who means enemy) but MIKI (amicus), or SHOÇI/SHOQI, we use JÊM (Gheg) and not IM (tosk), also we use ÇIKY [ʧiky] and not KY [ky] ([Exemple], KY exist in Gheg to, but for this sentence, ÇIKY/QIKY is more correct... The conjugation of PRUN look like "Template:sq-conj-uaj" but should be corrected to "Template:sq-conj-uj". Gmazdên) 17:28, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

About Prun / Mbron Etymology from Vladimor Orel Albanian Etymology Dictionary p.253, I noticed an other error, he link "protects" : mbron (tosk) / prun (gheg) to latin imparô, but it's parô imperô (Imperator, Perun God of Thunder, Perênija (Gheg) / Perëndia (Tosk), Lightnings Zevs Ʒɛvosθ), he seems to use contrary etymology for Latin term using... Gmazdên 17:36, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

Perhaps you could add anmiq, anmiku, anëmik and anmiqtë in Anmik word variant... Gmazdên 10:28, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

It seems that we must add a conjugation variant for the verb LAJ. Gmazdên 10:34, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I noticed you removed the phrase : keep it like "Qiky/Çiky ãsht miki jêm". Also for ËSHT/ÂSHT [ɑ̃ʃt] dont usë  [ɑ̃] for nasalition but à [ɑ̃]. The Variant Âsht was writed in Gueg Page, and used  has a phonetic value for sound [ɑ̃], but in Macedonia and Kosovo we write it Ësht but pronounce it [ɑ̃]. Gmazdên 10:52, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I checked word kënaq, you write the gheg variant (knaç/knaq) like Tosk, but know this lot of Tosk word using Ë, are writed without Ë in Gheg. Also, in Gheg we don't pronounce the Ë in end of Word. Like shkatërroj / shkatrrôj, këta / Kta, nganjëherë / kanihêrë, shtrembëroj / shtremôj and others... Gmazdên 22:58, 2 February 2011 (UTC)

I believe the PR became MBR in albanian because in Arabic Alphabet there is no P and it's replaced by B, the MR means rebellion & bitter (acidity). This falsification is a pun from the hebrew/arabian. Gmazdên 11:24, 18 February 2011 (UTC)


Hi, I checked AMË page, and I noticed that Ivan Stambuk added unpleasant odour, but in my dictionary the meaning is matrix for tosk, also in Gheg it's means "but" from persian AMA & Ottoman turkish, how to add ? Can you help ?


From Ottoman Turkish اما(ama), from Persian اما(ama).



  1. but
  2. however

Thanks Gmazdên 12:44, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I also add pronounciation & etymology with RFC add, for Derë & Sandali, but Mglovefun reversed ? Can you help ? Gmazdên 12:52, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, JorisvS replaced IPA definition of derë [deɾə] by [dɛrə] who mean pig (derr), what should I do ? Can you respond please ? I'm sure it's in gheg it's [deɾ] & not [dɛr], has a explained about we don't pronounce the Ë at end. Gmazdên 22:09, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be wise to start putting Gheg under its own L2 header, so that there will be ==Albanian== and ==Gheg Albanian==. As far as I'm aware, there's only [ɛ] in Standard Albanian and Tosk, and it would be a hassle to try to treat all three dialects under one header. I just don't think it would work, so if you'd like to start making ==Gheg Albanian== entries, I can make more templates for you. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 23:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi, thanks for response, I don't know if Tosk use [e] or only [ɛ], but I'm sure that Gheg use it. Also JorisvS use [r] in his IPA derë but if you check this Page, you will observe that R is [ɾ] & RR is [r], so I think he make a mistake, so if he mistake for R, he make mistake for E. How to correct please ? I'm sure that is [deɾə] & not [dɛrə]. It's more correct than saying pig for door ??? Still [e] epsilon exist in Greek Language & Alphabet, so its really astonished me if this sound doesn't exist in Toskian (for Greek term), I know that [ɛː] became [i] after Byzantine, but I'm sure that [e] exist in Skopje dialect. Also Hypjê (gheg) became Hipje (Tosk) because Ypsilon [y] became [i], in Skopje we still use ancient pronunciation. Gmazdên 01:04, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I would like to add etymology to Zot, add next to Life, Ancient Greek ζῶ in this form "{etyl|grc|sq} {term|ζῶ|tr=zô|lang=grc}" like that, zot would appears on this page : ??? And what about sandali ? Gmazdên 01:25, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I checked this page Albanian_Alphabet, and he use e [e] and not [ɛ], still I'm sur the letter E have two valour [e & ɛ] , like K [k & q]... In french E/É is [e] & Ê/È is [ɛ]. Gmazdên 14:11, 5 February 2011 (UTC)


Why? Opio was a brand. --Vahag 19:42, 4 February 2011 (UTC)

There's still OpiBot, and my opiaterein@gmail email. The brand lives! I'd just been wanting to change it for a long time. Couldn't think of what. So I used something more personal. :D — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 20:57, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
  1. Bored of "Opiaterein", and trying to explain what it means, if it means anything.
  2. Dick Laurent is a reference to one of my favorite films
  3. Ric is my name, and Dick is a variant, so there's one level of personal symmetry
  4. Laurent is a French name, and my real name is French, so there's another
  5. I'm a dick. So there's yet another :]
[ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:00, 4 February 2011 (UTC)
I welcome your transition to Name Surname system. One word nicks annoy me, most of all nicks like User:Msh210 and User:BD2412. We are an academic community of dictionary writers, we should look as respectable as possible. IMO the best name format here should be UniversityDegree Name Surname PenisSize. I will then be MSc Vahagn Petrosyan 25cm. --Vahag 03:43, 5 February 2011 (UTC)
I don't mind one-word names, but I do hate numbers, except for iv2o. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 15:04, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

zonjë (Tosk) & zôjë (Gheg)

Hi, in Macedonia & Kosovo we use Zôjë [zɔɪ], etymology : From "{etyl|grc|sq} {term|ζῶ|tr=zô|lang=grc}" [zɔ], can you add like for anmik & armik ? Also you didn't added anmiq, anmiku, anëmik and anmiqtë has ===Alternative forms===. Can you help please ? Gmazdên 14:08, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

anmiq, anmiku, anëmik and anmiqtë aren't "alternative forms", they're "forms of". Look at armik and see how they are listed. Also, remember how yesterday I said it might be wise to start using ==Gheg Albanian== headers? — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 15:07, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Yes those language are really different, so it would be preferable to use two header... In expectancy of an unified corrected version based upon source & root... Gmazdên 16:21, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

I changed anmik so it uses Gheg. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 16:34, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Why do you not add "From "{etyl|grc|sq} {term|ζῶ|tr=zô|lang=grc}" [zɔ]" in etymology ? I checked book of Vladimir, and he relate zot [zɔt] & zojë [zɔɪ] to greek life... Has you checked in my previous link for albanian greek term, lot of word are from Greek source... Can you also add a link (#REDIRECT) for zôjë [zɔɪ] for those who write it zojë [zɔɪ] ? Gmazdên 00:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

And what about derë, I'm sure we pronounce it [der] in Skopje and I believe that they don't use the pig pronunciation for door. Do you have an albanian friend friend from Macedonia to ask to ? Gmazdên 00:50, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

We also use zonja (tosk) & zôja/zoja (Gheg) :


  1. mrs.


  1. patroness

This word exist in Czech, the etymology link to Zoê / Ζωή#Greek [zɔɛ → zoi], Greek term for life... I would like to add to. Gmazdên 00:53, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Richard, I believe that your etymology for Zôjë / Zonjë is wrongful, I checked the page GWEN : women & ʒena, and yes ʒêvo is life in slavic, but for Zôjë is related to more older greek Ancient Greek ζῶ (), Zôt & Zôjë are linked to Zô (life & Zevs Ʒêvosθ)... Gmazdên 18:57, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

It wasn't my etymology. You need to talk to Ivan Štambuk, who know a lot more about Proto-Indo-European than I do.
You need to avoid using your own research as material here. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 20:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Ivan use for Shqip Slavic source (like those proposed by the book of Vladimir Orel, Russian Israeli from Tel Aviv University), I believe that Shqip have more ancient Greek, old Latin & Arabic/Persian/Ottoman root... Still has you know the Albanian language was reformed by Communist (Marx) who are Anti-Imperialist (Anti-Roman), because Roman Army destructed their temple in Jerusalem. It's the reason why they invented lot of erroneous etymology, that they try to confirm with help of book based on a falsified dialect that Enver Hoxha imposed in 1947, telling that albanian/shqiptar are from Illyrian or Pelagian origin, Instead of Roman Clan Scipio. Those theory are interesting, but has I know Illyrian were exterminated by Roman Empire and Pelagian under their (byzantine) control, may be some Shqip individuals have Illyrian, Pelagian or Slavic Origin or maybe caucasian, persian and even Hindu, but still for me the Old Roman & Old Greek source are more realistic. I don't know Ivan, but his name don't seem to be Shqip/Albanian, so I prefer ask someone of my nation for Sqiptar/Albanian stuff (Sqiptar clan are known in Molise since +400). Has you know the ancient Greek (-300) alphabet and modern Greek (+800) are really different phonologically, since Byzantine removed letter and changing value to confuse & divide people, since Cyrillic alphabet is based on modern Greek, the code is wrong and the phonetic value to, like Hêta [ɛ] becoming HITA [i], or Ypsilon [y] becoming Ipsilon [i], modern slavic alphabet does not differentiate the [ɔ] with [o], the T [t] & the TH [θ] and the k [k] with [q], they are misleaded, and so they induce others into error, because the alphabet is based upon falsification of origin, I gived you the original code above... Gmazdên 00:13, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

What you're talking about is doing your own original research, which isn't allowed here. I'd rather have no etymology than etymology based on original research. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:16, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm talking, that's all, we have right to express, I'm asking your opinion has you seem to be interested in Albanian, the Shqip language concern me, because I'm Shqiptar and I want to protect it. I explain to you, that Slavic Etymology, for Shqip Old Latin & Ancient Greek related word are incorrect. Since Slavic book are more recent than ancient Greek source or even more ancient Semitic (Arab/Hebrew) & Sanskrit (perso-hindo) stuff. I search by my own, and I know that I'm sincere. Gmazdên 00:37, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

It's fine to be curious and do your own research, you just have to know what's ok to put here and what's not. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:42, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you know that Zonjë in hebrew means prostitute זונה‎ / زنى‎ and fornication in Persian زناء‎ since original spelling is zôjë from ancient Greek Zô life God Zevs, what etymology should I believe, one insulting my people, based on Russian Israeli falsificated language book, or original Ancient Greek source ? Check JorisvS insulting my people telling that derë [deɾ] (Door) is pronounced like Dêrr [dɛr] (pig) ? Has you know modern albanian (after 1945 war) use lot UND instead of UN in lot of word, who means dog in German, or nderoj (der : pig ?) instead of neroj (honor). Please understand, those Tosk (Orthodox) have really bad language, and I would like that you believe me, when I say it's falsified by Communist. Gmazdên 00:55, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

That sounds like a coincidence to me. You know "voda" is water in Russian, but vagina in Bengali. Is that insulting to Russians? How is zona in Hebrew more offensive to your people than to the Greeks? Some languages are offensive to themselves. In old Persian, aurat meant both "woman" and "imperfection". These days, it's considered a sexist word, but it's still used in Urdu. So I don't care if something was falsified by communists, I don't hate communists. Except for totalitarian dictators, but that's beside the point. JorisvS wasn't actively trying to insult your people, he just doesn't know Albanian. I'm getting quite bored of this conversation. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 01:02, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok, then, I will stop, just hope that you add Zoja & Zonja ; and about Voda, Bengali don't impose Russian Etymology Book to Russia, like they do with Albania... Good bye. Gmazdên 02:12, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

And about your correction of Derë, in Skopje know that we use : "derë f (indefinite plural Dyrë, definite singular dera, definite plural Dyrtë). Gmazdên 02:28, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

That's why I've been using ==Gheg Albanian==. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 02:31, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Please use ==Albanian (Gheg)==, like that definition follow ==Albanian== without others language between them. Gmazdên 02:49, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

I can see your reasoning, but I still don't like that. We don't do it for any other related languages/dialects. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 02:51, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Be nice and make an exception for this case, please. It would be more convenient to have the 2 definition following each other. Gmazdên 20:00, 7 February 2011 (UTC)

Do you plan to add zôja & zonja ??? Consider adding {{etyl|grc|sq}} {{term|ζῶ|tr=zô|lang=grc}} ; And about Voda, I have a funny word that I invented AQWAGGINA ha ha ha... Gmazdên 21:16, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

If you're talking about the entries zôja and zonja, no. I don't feel like taking the time to manually add noun-forms today, or tomorrow, or this month. I might do it by bot at some point, but I'm not going to be doing that manually. Also, I'm not going to add your primary research etymologies. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:44, 8 February 2011 (UTC)

Ok then good bye... Gmazdên 19:40, 9 February 2011 (UTC)

New name

David Lynch fan, by any chance? Ƿidsiþ 15:32, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Absofuckinlutely ♥. I mentioned it sorta when Vahag asked. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 15:55, 5 February 2011 (UTC)

Albanian Header

Hello, I thought it might be preferable to use the header in this form like that the definitions will follow.

  • Albanian "Not shown : Official/Standard of Albania (since 1947"
  • Albanian (Gheg)
  • Albanian (Tosk)

What do you think ? Gmazdên 11:04, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Also, has I said before I don't know if differencing the two dialect is a good idea, because, has you know the Gheg use the correct one, since the Tosk use falsificated word, if you compare with root & term source... I hope that the government of Albania will correct those falsification. Gmazdên 11:14, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I will not play games of favoritism, just so you know. I decided to only separate out Gheg because standard Albanian is based on and mostly the same as Tosk. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 14:05, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

What you call standard is standard of South Albania, the Kosovo have adopted Gheg officially in media, and in daily discussion the Gheg dialect is used in Northern Albania, south Montenegro & West Macedonia... Also, I believe the new government of Albania will probably stop the Tosk utilisation, I proved with example that his a falsification of term.

But I still ask you to use : "Albanian (Gheg) rather than Gheg Albanian like that definition will follow the Albanian "Standard" and precede the Albanian (Tosk), rather than have big space between definition. Gmazdên 15:00, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you're talking about. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 19:45, 6 February 2011 (UTC)

Poll on formatting of etymologies

I would like to know your preference as regards the use of "<" vs "from" in the formatting of etymologies in Wiktionary, whatever that preference is. Even explicit statement of indifference would be nice. You can state your preference in the currently running poll: WT:BP#Poll: Etymology and the use of less-than symbol. I am sending you this notification, as you took part on some of the recent votes, so chances are you could be interested in the poll. The poll benefits from having as many participants as possible, to be as representative as possible. Feel free to ignore this notification. --Dan Polansky 10:49, 14 February 2011 (UTC)

Kuptoj IPA Dick Laurent

Hi, read my talk with Stephen about IPA...

First thanks for correcting my error on [ɪ] & [j], I believed that [ɪ] was pronounced [j].

About Kuptoj, I use prefix-word-suffix separation and you use syllabic division, who is incorrect since everybody have his own pronunciation. I would like to asking you to don't change my IPA Gheg version, please. Like Stephen said to me, British & American have different IPA. Your IPA look like American in example President :

British /ˈpɹɛ.zɨd.ənt/ (Gmazdên)

American /ˈpɹɛz.ɨ.dɛnt/ (Dick Laurent)

The British is more correct, because they separate prefix, affix & suffix (extension). To better understand word assembling. Your syllabic IPA is individual pronunciation, who can be different from persons to others, please keep my version using prefix-word-suffix(extension). Since it's more logical... Please, Thanks Gmazdên 19:58, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

Can you explain me the Wiki syntax code for Declension for noun, adverb & others of Shqip ? Any link ? Please. Gmazdên 20:28, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I checked declension of burrë, and I'm asking, do you have masculine & feminine declension variant for NounF ? What is the -ët ending ? Like babë & babët, baba & babat. Can you explain me. Gmazdên 20:35, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

I noticed that you add for lot of word using GJ I.P.A [ɟʑ] don't need to add two letter it's [ɟ] alone... Gmazdên 22:24, 22 February 2011 (UTC)

  1. IPA is pronunciation, phonology. Not morphology. The affixes are not important to that. Showing affixes is for ===Etymology===, not ===Pronunciation===.
  2. Albanian gj may be [ɟ] in some places, but I've never heard it pronounced such. I was so hellbent on finding this that I had a Hungarian listen to albanian words with gj and q, because her language actually has [ɟ], and she says it sounds very different from the sounds in Hungarian. So I'm going to use [ɟʑ], at least for Tosk. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

You say "I've never heard", where do heared those ? What city are you talking about, did you lived there ? I still believe that your syllabic separation is not ideal. It's a personal point of view, still the IPA pronunciation is the same, even if you use [kup.tɔj / kom.pu.tɔ] or [qupt.ɔj / gom.put.ɔ] (جمع‎ / געם‎ [gmo/gom] : with مع‎ / עם‎ [mo/om])... But for word structure representation, I still believe that prefix-word-suffix is better than binary syllabic sounds, if you use a IPA robot voice synthesiser, I'm sure that you will not ear difference in the pronunciation... I just downloaded some old movie from Albania, and their pronunciations is realy different, they use only [a] & not [ɑ & ɒ], the Gheg & Tosk are really different phonetically, I still prefer my Skopje language more rich & with more sound. Gmazdên 23:22, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

And about syntax code for declension ? Any link ? And the -ËT ending what's his use, I speak Shqip, but I never learned grammar, because I'm living since I was a baby in Belgium. Gmazdên 23:24, 23 February 2011 (UTC)

If you want I send you a record of the pronunciation of Kuptoj Gheg & Tosk variant to check difference. About IPA, this is not how they (Tosk) pronounce. But how it should be perfectly pronounced, by respecting the source, prefix, root, etymology and original ancestral letter value, if a word is from Greek and use omicron [o] instead of ômega [ɔ] you should then use [o] & not [ɔ] in Shqip, like biologji, if the word use Epsilon, like energji, don't use [ɛ] but [e], and for Arabic, we should look at a Arabic Script Albanian Dictionary of Ottoman Era, for the [q] & the [k]... Also Krijoj (Tosk) from latin crêô is misspelling caused by usage of Greek Script, where Ancient Ellêniqë ϘΡΗΩ / CRÊÔ [qrɛ.ɔ] became Modern Greek κρηω / krio [kri.o]. So alternative form deviation of Gheg version is caused by utilisation of translation of Modern Greek Script to Latin script by Tosk who don't use ancient phonetic value of Ancient Ellêniqë Attic. Like Hypje & Hipje, krypë & Kripë or Hydro & Hidro and so on... Do you know an ancient Shqip (before 1945) dictionary using Greek script ? I believe that these people are Arvanites & living in Qameria. Gmazdên 11:25, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Other example of ê [ɛ] & i [i] variation : jêm [jɛm] & jim [jim] (ϳημ : Arbënit), têm & tim (τημ : Arbënit)... Ypsilon & Ipsilon, Ftyra / Ftira (φτυρα : Arbënit), Qiky / Qyky (Ϙ̇υϙυ : Arbënit). Gmazdên 15:49, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

I thinking about something, Kripë [krip] (Tosk) & Krypë [qryp] (Gheg) : Salt is a Crystal / ϘΡΥΣΤΑΛΟ [qrysθalo] (O.E) κρύσταλο [kristalo] (M.G) of Sodium Chloride, can be Cryo & Crystal be his crypted / ϘΡΥΠΤΗ (QRUPTĒ) [qrypθɛ] κρύπτη (krýpti) [kripti] origin ? Gmazdên 13:16, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

About [ɟʑ], could it be possible to pronounce two consonant ? it's [ɟ] or [ʑ], I don't believe that both sound are used. Check IPA and for [ʑ] IPA. Gmazdên 14:30, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Are you there ? Gmazdên 11:23, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

I would like to add alternative for all word, using the Αρβανίτες (Arbanitês, Arbërêsh), using the Greek Script, I would like to find ΛΕΞΙΚΟΝ ΤΗΣ ΑΛΒΑΝΙΚΗΣ ΓΛΩΣΣΗΣ (1908), do you know where I could find a PDF version ??? I really need an Albanian Dictionary using Greek & Arabic script... Gmazdên 19:48, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Romanian vote

FYI, the vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-02/Romanian orthographic norms is running. I am notifying you in case you would be interested in giving input. --Dan Polansky 15:15, 28 February 2011 (UTC)

Qiky (Tosk) & Qyky (Gheg) (Dick_Laurent)

Hi, you asked me about a miki jêm, and I told you that for this case Qiky (this one) is better than Ky, but I made a mistake Qiky is Tosk, Gheg uses Qyky... It's a detail but since it was for anëmik/anmik gheg variant page, and finally added in mik, I believe it's important to correct (check Qyky exist)... Gmazdên 09:08, 2 March 2011 (UTC)

User Page IPA Transcription

How come there are several IPA transcriptions on the bottom of your User Page? Are there any languages in it? - Lo Ximiendo 20:22, 16 March 2011 (UTC)

In accordance with my policy of maintaining a relatively mysterious persona, my answer is simply: Hehe... Enjoy. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 03:51, 17 March 2011 (UTC)

Hebrew participles

Hi. There's some discussion at [[Wiktionary talk:About Hebrew#"Participle" as a part-of-speech header in entries]] that you may be able to provide useful input to, if you're so inclined. Thanks.​—msh210 (talk) 06:42, 23 March 2011 (UTC)


Hello! If someone deletes poziţie, all contributions in it will be lost. If we delete poziție, then move poziţie and then restore old revisions of poziție, nothing is going to be lost. --flyax 15:56, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Is that really what's important? — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 15:59, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
In my opinion it is. Anyway, even if it is not, we need the redirect for those people who still type Romanian words with cedillas. --flyax 16:02, 12 April 2011 (UTC)
There, redirect created :P — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 16:16, 12 April 2011 (UTC)


Renegade5005 22:59, 14 April 2011 (UTC) Please check Pokorny 1943, pages252-255 and Starling Databases.

The correctness of what you entered is not my concern. My concerns are
  1. You didn't even use an ===Etymology=== header
  2. You put in several "compare to" languages without making an effort to find their original written forms.
If you're going to make an effort, try to make a good one instead of half of one. Thanks. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:42, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
Renegade5005 00:58, 15 April 2011 (UTC) Sure, no problem. I must have forgotten to use the Etymology header. I had added the 'rfscript' so that someone else would write in original script. I usually use Etymological dictionaries in which they usually use phonological symbols.
Don't be leaving work for others to do. If you want to add it, do your best to add it properly. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 01:05, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
There is absolutely nothing wrong with adding a transliteration to an etymology section with a script request template. Nadando 01:06, 15 April 2011 (UTC)
We're not talking about one, and we're not talking about an isolated incident. (Well yes we are, but that's not the reality.) Have you ever seen some of the other wiktionaries that have hundreds of entries but no definitions? Same basic idea. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 01:14, 15 April 2011 (UTC)


There's an rfv debate over the Latvian section, listed as a 'hypothetical plural'. Do you know enough Latvian, or have good enough sources to come up with at least one citation, please? Mglovesfun (talk) 11:28, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

I don't really care that much. Most of the discussion pages here are political bullshit. Not in the mood for it at present. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 13:05, 16 April 2011 (UTC)

Hey there

What do you know about this new table drop down and show/hide arrow crap? It's not displaying correctly in my Firefox 3.6.16. The ± next to the arrows isn't even showing correctly. It's showing below the "]". The titles of the tables show as simple text and it's completely distasteful. Also, the sizes for the Arabic and the Devanagari (and I'm sure others as well) are showing as small, as if the 125% specifications are being ignored. --Dijan 01:24, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't notice someone had changed the Common.css and made a mistake. It's back again. --Dijan 01:50, 18 April 2011 (UTC)
Haha sounds like somebody sketched up Wiktionary :) I dunno if I've ever showed you this, but what do you think of this business? I was working on it back when I started to learn Persian. Haven't worked on it since then... :D — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 02:06, 18 April 2011 (UTC)

Maltese conjugation

Hi there,

Regarding the explanation in Maltese conjugation template naming, I was wondering if you could point me to a text describing the conjugation types I, II, ... the text is referring to. I'm researching the conjugation of Maltese verbs and couldn't find such a distinction. --N0nick 07:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

In perfect honesty, I can't remember the differences, but I must have the document I got it from somewhere. I seem to remember the differences being important enough to warrant the different conjugations.
I will ask that you not try too hard to expand too much on the templates for now, Maltese conjugation is quite involved... I didn't manage to get very many templates done. I'll see if I can find that document, though. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:57, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
Now that I think about it, you know what that might be is verb forms like in Arabic. Check out Appendix:Arabic verbs. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:02, 8 May 2011 (UTC)
I'll take a look there. Thanks!! --N0nick 07:42, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Huwa pjaċir tiegħi. :) — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 14:50, 11 May 2011 (UTC)


Nu este o problemă, se dorește probabil păstrarea unor titluri neutrale, neinterpretabile. Corectăm!BAICAN XXX 16:00, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

German adjectives

Not sure if you still plan to do those, but there's no declension template for adjectives ending in -el (compare akzeptabel). Is it possible that you could create such a template? -- Prince Kassad 17:01, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

Do you find yourself incapable? — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 17:04, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
Well you created them, I didn't even take a look at the code yet. I had a hard enough time figuring out how to use them on a page. -- Prince Kassad 17:12, 11 May 2011 (UTC)
I didn't do the adjective templates, I only edited them. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 17:19, 11 May 2011 (UTC)

akşamdan kalma

Hey Dicky, can you check akşamdan kalma's definiton and etymology for me? I don't know if I could explain it properly. Sinek 00:26, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Hmm that's kind of a tough one. Does it refer to someone who has a headache in the morning, or someone who drinks so much that they're still drunk when they wake up? — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:30, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Hmm drunk. Not as much as the night before, but still drunk. Sinek 00:39, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
I've changed it a little bit then :) And I'll change it a little more now lol — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:48, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Thanks a lot, it looks so much better now :) Sinek 00:53, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Haha I just added a bunch of probably unnecessary words :D Now I'm gonna keep adding words related to yağlı güreş, ben sapığım çünkü. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:57, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
You know what? Sapıklara bayılırım. I should have a sleep now, as it's 4 o'clock in the morning here, but tomorrow I'll have a look at your sapık entries with great pleasure. Sinek 01:00, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
Lol sleep well, buddy :) — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 01:03, 12 May 2011 (UTC)
One more question, does "noone can know me without living me" sound stupid? I mean "living someone" sounds OK in Turkish, but that sentence sounded really weird to me when I translated. If it's not OK, how would it be translated? To live someone is used to mean "to learn one's characteristics by spending lots of time with that person." What do you think of this? Sinek 21:37, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
I think in English, we'd usually say 'to walk in someone's shoes'. I'd say "No one can know me without having walked in my shoes" or something to that effect. Silly English shit :) — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:40, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Actually, re-reading the end of what you said, about spending a lot of time with the person... that's slightly different than "walking in someone's shoes". But it has the same basic idea of seeing what a person deals with and whatnot.... — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:47, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Hmm I see. Walk in someone's shoes means to see things from other people's perspective, right? But I also think that it may work that way. Though Turkish "living someone" means "begin to know some specific person, experience many thing with them" blah blah anywaaaay :D Thank you very much! Sinek 22:06, 2 June 2011 (UTC)
Haha always my pleasure :) — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:11, 2 June 2011 (UTC)


A bot that checks ==Lang== sections against characters in page title, adds attention categories. For example, an entry with a ==Pashto== section but with گ (which isn't a Pashto letter) in the page title. ex, Category:Pashto terms misspelled with گ or something. Would be great for Arabic and Cyrillic script stuff. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:39, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

Why is it that the Pashto Wikipedia uses Template:fa-Arab in its interface? --Dijan 05:13, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm really not sure which way, Template:Arab or Template:fa-Arab, is correct in Pashto... I've seen big dictionaries that use Template:fa-Arab instead of Template:ps-Arab, mixed use of Template:Arab and Template:ps-Arab... it's kinda crazy. I personally use Template:fa-Arab for Pashto; if it's less correct than the traditional Arabic one, then I guess that can be addressed when it comes up... — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 06:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)


Hey stranger. Is it just me or does this one (and its derivatives sound a little awkward? I've never seen it as Template:fa-Arab but always as Template:fa-Arab. I can't really find anything published (outside of the Net on this), but spoken I've always heard Template:fa-Arab. --Dijan 05:11, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I can't say with certainty that I've ever heard someone use the word, so at the moment I really couldn't say... Sometimes the spoken forms aren't noted in the more easily found sources... sometimes even the standard forms lol. Persian's rather challenging to...wikify I guess lol. عاشق بودن was no small nightmare to engineer @_@ and it's not even done. The little quirks are presenting some significant challenges — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 06:42, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
You know what, though, I have noticed that I feel like I hear [ɪ] instead of [e] in stuff like /be'baxʃi:d/... I find that my ability to find the answers to certain questions, like finer points of pronunciation, can be really hard to find, which can make it hard to handle the stuff I really like doing. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 06:45, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
The reason why I was mentioning is that Template:fa-Arab is a lot more common than Template:fa-Arab is. On Template:fa-Arab, it's definitely an [e] in standard Irani Persian as well as in colloquial Tehrani. Now, I'm not sure about Esfahani or other regional varieties (Esfahani accent is known for its distinct sound). --Dijan 08:34, 9 June 2011 (UTC)
Hmmm... I dunno, maybe it's like that one suffix Template:fa-Arab from Template:fa-Arab that only takes that form when it's a suffix? — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 14:00, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Lithuanian request

Hello, Mr. Laurent. Could you please create Lithuanian skersti and Latvian šķērst. They should mean something like "to cut". Particularly, interested in their first person indicative forms. Also, do you know a way of going back to the old Edit Toolbar? I can't find the "insert horizontal line" in the new interface. --Vahag 14:18, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Skersti sucked. What a weird word. I'll get on šķērst now. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 14:39, 12 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I dunno about the edit toolbar... I've been using custom edittools for a long time now :( — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 14:40, 12 June 2011 (UTC)

Persian conjugation

I love the work you've done on these templates! You should also include the first person plural imperative into the table as well as the bare imperatives (without Template:fa-Arab be or bo). I am under the impression that Dari is also covered under Persian. I'm not sure how to show the differences in the conjugation tables. Essentially they all use the same conjugation, with minor differences in usage and in terms of what is considered dated and what is more currently in use. I'm not sure if the colloquial Tehrani should be covered in the same template if Dari is also covered under the Persian header. It definitely should be shown, but maybe with its own template? --Dijan 02:14, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Haha the templates are starting to really overwhelm me, but it's my fault for doing it so weird to begin with... The only difference I know between Iranian and Dari conjugation offhand is the present progressive, but I can't remember exactly how that's done in Dari... As much as I originally wanted to include the colloquial forms in the main template, I think I might just have to have subtemplates or something... The boxes are starting to get too crowded for it... on top of that, I still want to add more to the noun and adjective templates.
So following the individual templates idea, I think I currently have it set so that if you specify a header, it'll come up. It'd be pretty easy to have "conjugation of x in Iranian Persian/Dari Persian" or "colloquial conjugation of x" or whatever... That'd be pretty easy.
I really would like to finish these so I can do Tajik next...
I'm going to drive myself crazy by tomorrow :D — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 02:43, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
I'm hoping that soon you could do a few for Ottoman Turkish as well. But, that's another thing for another time, and I believe much more complicated than Persian at the moment. I'm studying for exams, filling out internship forms, and planning the fall semester now and have very little time for Wiktionary. Although, I do get distracted with words sometimes and get lost for hours sifting through dictionaries, looking for etymological data. Love it :) --Dijan 07:04, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Hm, I know enough about modern Turkish to have made the basic declension tables here, but I don't know anything at all about Ottoman Turkish or how it changed, but I'll help how I can :) If you can tell me what the template needs, I can make that happen.
Haha geez I had no idea you were so busy, but it sounds exciting and I hope everything goes well and smoothly for you :) I know the feeling of being unable to resist the linguogeekness... It's so... magical :D
Guess it's time to get my ass back to work lol — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 12:41, 14 June 2011 (UTC)
Hi! I've been looking at some things, trying to remember and find out as much as I could. I haven't found out too much on Dari for you, except that most books that I have show that the Template:fa-Arab is mê (the long e), although it seems that the pronunciation of it varies (ê seems to be the literary and formal, while colloquial and dialectal forms sound more like Hindustani "ai"). About the numbers, I'm sorry to disappoint you, but it seems that there is no ZWNJ between the numbers and the conjunction. Btw, I'm not liking the stress marker accents, but that's just me. It looks too weird. --Dijan 21:47, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
It's no disappointment, it should be easy enough to fix in notepad :)
I originally didn't really intend to put the stress markers, but I think they could be really useful for beginners in situations where there's ambiguity, like the colloquial pronunciations of the present-perfect versus the simple past, and differentiating between certain other things... like I guess setâre-í as "stellar" and setâré-i as "a star". — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:32, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh, I understand the purpose of it, just think it's ugly. For a bit it started to look like Vietnamese to me. --Dijan 22:55, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, that ấ ain't no joke lol... I know it's not pretty, but it's better than bolding certain letters lol. I've always liked acute accents, and I've always had a weird thing about showing as much pronunciation as I can without being silly in transliterations, so I'm kinda biased. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 23:07, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks !?

I'm not sure what you did on my user page but if it is significant consider doing it to: OrenBochman/edittools since it is the tool I use to creat IPA entries. OrenBochman 17:33, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

All done :) Happy editing. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 18:28, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2011-05/Add en: to English topical categories, part 2

I saw you voted on the first vote, so maybe you would like to voice your opinion this time again? —CodeCat 19:34, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

I don't really remember... anyway, I don't care too super much right at this moment. I appreciate the mentioning of the vote, though. I hate when votes that I do actually give a fuck about go by without my noticing. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 19:45, 17 June 2011 (UTC)

make do

There was at least one missing sense. I had trouble getting what you added. I took a stab at what I (US non-Southerner) am familiar with. Is what I added what you intended or something different? DCDuring TALK 21:13, 20 June 2011 (UTC)

No, they're different. They seem to have similarities, but the one I added is more using something for its actual intended purpose. I think the one you've added has more in common with the first sense, like making do with something that should be used for something else.
I had a hard time thinking of what to put as the definition, because it can mean such a variety of things - that is to say it's used in place of things that we of the North and West might say. Make the TV do, turn on the TV. It can also mean basically the same as "make it work", like if something's not working right. But in this case it's not quite the same as to fix, it's more likely to be "I dunno how to work this thing, you do it". It's deceptively difficult to pin down. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:33, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I've yet to hear that expression. Although, living in Atlanta for the last decade has taught me not to be surprised when I hear strange expressions. --Dijan 21:50, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I've mostly heard it from my friends who live and grew up in the more rural parts of eastern NC, where I live right now. I've noticed they say a lot of things here that I've not heard from other southerners. I'm not really sure if they say it in other parts of the state, but it's cute to me so I had to add it lol — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 22:26, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I didn't know we were so close geographically :P lol --Dijan 22:53, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I'll do you one better. A couple years back, I staid in Atlanta for a couple of days with a guy in whom I was interested. Would've been really weird if that had worked out lol. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 23:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Weird? In what sense? On the bright side, we could be having coffee right now while working on this! ;) LOL --Dijan 23:18, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Maybe not as weird as fantastically ironic :D My notepad is super slow... I think it's done fixing my numbers now though lol — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 23:22, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
That page almost caused my computer to restart. Glad you fixed it. --Dijan 23:35, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, it's really intense... I think I'll split it into like sup-appendices or something like that. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 23:47, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
I haven't heard it either (NY, Denver, TV). The main difference between what I added and what was there is just the transitivity. While looking for usage examples, I also stumbled across the following proverb: "Use it up, wear it out, make it do or do without", for which I entered just the short form so far. DCDuring TALK 22:03, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Sticking my unwanted nose in via Recent Changes: is it like "sort it out" (sense 2)? That's what I might say to the person who knew more about the recalcitrant telly. Equinox 23:50, 20 June 2011 (UTC)
Nonsense, your nose is fantastic. Stick it around here as often as you like. And actually yes, that seems quite similar to making it do... Just much more refined :D — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:25, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
It's not refined! It would work well in some godforsaken Cockney accent. "Wos wrong wiv your telly? Sor' i' ou' mate!" P.S. I recently added some kind of dog breed and thought of you. Because you're a cheating dog. Equinox 00:28, 21 June 2011 (UTC)
Haha maybe not fantastically refined, but you know it sounds better than "make it do" :) — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 00:36, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Derivations categories

Since you like to be notified of votes, I thought I would notify you of this one as well. It hasn't really received much attention, and today is the last day. Essentially it is the same as Wiktionary:Votes/2011-04/Lexical categories (which you supported), extended further to cover derivation categories as well. —CodeCat 17:07, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Dick, is سه‌ناریو supposed to mean something? --Daniel 19:41, 22 June 2011 (UTC)
Yes, it's kind of a reverse transliteration. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:57, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

Persian ordinal numbers

Don't forget to also include the other version of the ordinals that end in Template:fa-Arab. There is a slight grammatical difference when used, but both are equivalent. For example Template:fa-Arab (yekom) and Template:fa-Arab (yekomin) or Template:fa-Arab (avval) and Template:fa-Arab (avvalin). The difference is that the -om ordinals have to come after the noun and there is an ezâfe between them, while the -omin ordinals come before the noun without ezâfe. So it would be Template:fa-Arab (dars-e avval) or Template:fa-Arab (avvalin dars). The only difference, in usage, is that -omin ordinals are more formal. Usually structures without ezâfe are more formal. --Dijan 01:12, 25 June 2011 (UTC)

You know what's kinda crazy? I only learned about the existence of these -omin forms about an hour ago... I was like "fuuuuck more work to do" lol. I keep thinking of more stuff I want to do, then finding out there's even more that I have to do to supplement it. I love how busy Persian keeps my brain :D
Oh but yes, once I finish what I'm working on in the new appendix for ordinals, it'll be easy to make another list with find/replace for the -omin forms. I might put them in sorta side-by-side appendices, like "-omin ordinal numbers" and "-om ordinal numbers" or something like that.
I'm going to make the wild guess that the -omin forms can't be used in fractions like ye charom? — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 01:19, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Oh, hope you might happen to know how ordinals are written in numerals, like how in English we've got 3rd and 4th and whatnot... I can't figure this one out for Persian :( — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 01:27, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
No, -omin forms cannot be used for fractions. As far as I know, the fractions are expressed with both the cardinal numbers, denominator before the numerator (with ZWNJ, where appropriate), and with the ordinals. So, it would be Template:fa-Arab (čahâr-yek) or Template:fa-Arab (yek-čahârom), for 1/4. Of course, there are always those pesky Arabic terms that have become naturalized (as Template:fa-Arab has), such as Template:fa-Arab for 1/2.
There are no abbreviations such as 1st, 2nd, etc. in Persian. Oh, just remembered. Don't forget to add Template:fa-Arab (noxost) and Template:fa-Arab (noxostin). So far, that's three ways of saying "first" in Persian! :) --Dijan 06:14, 25 June 2011 (UTC)
Dear God :) It's like every time we talk about something, you tell me about all sorts of new stuff I've never heard of lol... like the only way I've ever seen for fractionals is the cardinal+ordinal way... Haha. I know there are extra words for half, third and quarter, but I dunno about past that. Actually thinking about it, I may have read that the quarter is primarily used in telling time... but I'm not sure, I try not to "learn" things the first time I read them, it'll never work and I'll get frustrated lol. (What is it with me and my rambling) Anyway, guess it's back to work time :D — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 12:26, 25 June 2011 (UTC)


Hi, Richard. You can read Indian hieroglyphs, right? Can you add the script to raghvī in არაგვი (aragvi). It is the feminine of raghú. --Vahag 11:31, 16 July 2011 (UTC)

Well, I don't speak Sanskrit so I can't be 100%, but I'd be tempted to say that it would be either Template:Deva (raghvī) Template:Deva (strictly speaking, raghavī). Neither of them gives many Google results... which is disturbing to me even for Sanskrit— [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 15:44, 16 July 2011 (UTC)
It's the first one, thanks. And thanks to comrade Štambuk. --Vahag 18:56, 16 July 2011 (UTC)


Blimey. Are Maltese people aliens? What do they speak out of? Equinox 19:56, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

Hang on, I'm not drunk enough :D
Ok, so xewwex is pronounced like sheh-wesh, so it's still weird but if the Maltese ARE aliens, then apparently I'm not entirely gay, and maybe I'd like to get down with some sexy Maltians. OonTZ oonTZ, more booze time — [Ric Laurent] — 19:58, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
They're not "Maltians"! They're Maltesers. Equinox 21:22, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
Maltians=Maltese Martians :D — [Ric Laurent] — 21:31, 17 July 2011 (UTC)
XD --Lo Ximiendo 16:26, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

SC stress templates

Unfortunately I am not a professor of (Serbo-)Croatian (I'm just a native speaker with quite a bit of lexical and grammatical knowledge) so I don't know if there are "template-able" declension stress patterns in SC off the top of my head. I'll look into it though and get back to you on that later today or tomorrow.

I will also add {{Babel}} and some other info to my user page (later as well), thanks for bringing that to my attention. --Doccolinni 16:24, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

RFV archive on Talk:dog

Hi! I was wondering if you could explain why you reverted my addition of an RFV-archive to Talk:dog. Are you intending to re-open the discussion and cite the "god" sense, or did you just glance a tad too quickly and think I was saying "dog" (in the general sense of "hound") had failed RFV? - -sche (discuss) 16:55, 2 August 2011 (UTC)

I don't remember doing that, so it was probably an accident. You can undo it if you like. — [Ric Laurent] — 17:14, 2 August 2011 (UTC)
Ok, thanks! - -sche (discuss) 17:35, 2 August 2011 (UTC)


Alright, could you please tell me what's the point of phonetic transcriptions that relate to a particular dialect of a particular major accent instead of using a general phonemic transcription like in almost every other page on Wiktionary? --TheAmericanizator 20:57, 5 August 2011 (UTC)

Sorry, you missed your window of opportunity to get a serious answer from me. Instead of reverting my reverts you should've come and asked me this earlier. Now you can lick my testicles and maybe go read our actual policies. You don't just replace information with what you think you should be there. You either add or you fuck off. Enjoy your day, buddy.
Oh, and to lay to rest any curiosity, I will continue to revert you if you overwrite information. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:23, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Whatever dude, you're just hurting Wiktionary for all I care. Now you know what, you've made me wanna watch a nice [bʊukɑ̈keˑɪ / bükäkɛ̝ˑɪ / by ̈käke̞ˑɪ / bükakeˑɪ / bʉkɑ̠keˑɪ / bɵʊkɒkɛ̝ˑɪ]; I recommend Maria Ozawa's newscaster and the weathergirl one if you're into that kind of stuff too. --TheAmericanizator 21:46, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I've been on wiktionary for like 5 or 6 years and I've made massive contributions, so I'm going to have to differ with you on that. I appreciate the suggestion, but I'm gay so I'll probably just shake it to some BukkakeBoys. God I love that shit. — [Ric Laurent] — 21:49, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Can't say I feel the same about that website but it sure looks pretty, uhm...professional.--TheAmericanizator 21:55, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
I like your style. I'm going to go way out of my normal behavioral norms and edit bukkake in a less lazy way. Check it out when I'm done, and try to remember to add info rather than replace it.
I wonder if there's any good examples of non-animated bukkake on commons so I can add a picture. Sweet. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:02, 5 August 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, looks good now. And I apologize for not contacting you right away, I was lazy myself. To be perfectly honest I prefer phonetic transcriptions too, it's just that Wiktionary is full of phonemic ones and replacing them all looks like a PITA.
As for the image, I noticed there's some dishes called Bukkake, like this one. I think I know what that big white blotch is.--TheAmericanizator 08:05, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
It's cool man, I was too lazy to tell you to knock it off, so it's alright. What I like is to have // transcriptions and [], with like accents underneath. Here, check out like فردوس#Persian, although I guess that one doesn't quite count... no slashes, but whatever lol. Let me know if you've got a question about formatting or what templates to use and shit like that. Time to W&B. Well, just the B part. W's obviously done. — [Ric Laurent] — 13:30, 6 August 2011 (UTC)
I like that Persian one, that's how it should be with English too. Problem with English is you've got a whole lot of dialects within a main accent. But it would be cool if entries looked like the ones on this site.--TheAmericanizator 15:19, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

Romanian Q&A

Hi there. I notice you seem to be the most active in Romanian at the moment. I'm in Romania right now trying to leverage my Spanish to learn the language... and failing (-: Anyway I thought you might be interested if you don't already know that StackExchange has a proposal for a Q&A site on the Romanian language that you might want to follow. Thanks for the answers and comments by the way! — hippietrail 15:01, 6 August 2011 (UTC)

So I learned Romanian before I got into Spanish at all and now I'm forever fucking up and mixing words all up and together. At this point I speak Ibero-Romanian. "Vreau să voy ăfuera" like what the fuck, really, shit that doesn't even exist.
Short totally pointless rant aside, I'm jealous of your traveling lol. I'd expect a Q&A site to require more offhand knowings than the rusted Romanian parts of my brain could provide. But if you can recommend shit you see on there to be put on here, I might be able to focus it appropriately. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:22, 6 August 2011 (UTC)


Do you know how that template works? And do you also know any Estonian? Thanks. --Lo Ximiendo 15:18, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

No, I'm just making all this shit up as I go cuz nobody gives a shit about Estonian and I'll never get caught. Fuck you. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:20, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
At least studying the template and taking Estonian language lessons is appreciated. 6_9 --Lo Ximiendo 15:39, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Hm, I didn't realize you were hovering over my shoulder watching me not reading colloquial Estonian and taking little notes on declension for the past week, then finding more fantastic online Estonian resources lol. Even if I had really been doing these things, I shouldn't be doing them myself... I should be taking lessons.
I'd appreciate if you'd be more careful of who you patronize. Thanks. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:05, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
I didn't know how I patronized. 0_0 I was taught at my high school careers class that patronizing people is detrimental. Besides, even my parents find me nosy. >_< --Lo Ximiendo 16:19, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
My reputation here for making effective inflection templates hasn't been questioned for a long time. Maybe sometime you'd like to check out some of the templates for Turkish, Lithuanian, Romanian, Albanian, Latvian, Yucatec, Bengali, Hindi, Persian, and various others I can't even remember at this point. — [Ric Laurent] — 16:27, 8 August 2011 (UTC)


Hi dude, sorry for disturbing you with this, but I want to change my username and when I checked this out, it said me some formal stuff about local bureaucrats. As you've recently changed yours, what the hell should I do? And lol plus, even if it's not enough, I want to change it on several Wiktionaries. Don't feel yourself you have to answer me right now just I'd be glad if you do, when you have time :) Thanks in advance Sinek 22:52, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

I think I asked Stephen to do it. Nothin formal, I just said "hey can you change my name to this". I dunno how the process works, but he does lol. I only changed it on here, unfortunately it doesn't change for other projects. But you can always ask their bureaucrats to do it wherever else you want it done. — [Ric Laurent] — 22:57, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Or you could use Wiktionary:Changing username. --Yair rand 23:09, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
Have I ever told you I loved you? Thanks a million :) Sinek 23:10, 8 August 2011 (UTC)
 :-* — [Ric Laurent] — 23:31, 8 August 2011 (UTC)

Template:User_Jpan-4 etc.

Hello Dick --

Just noticed you'd rvted my changes to these templates. Thing is, there is no single Japanese script, so saying "the Japanese script" is a bit of a grammatical mistake. Is there a reason to keep the "the" that I'm missing? -- Bemused, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 23:00, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

What you (or in fairness the vast majority of people, so don't feel bad) think of as a "grammatical mistake" is of no consequence to me. The "the" is what implies the natural mix and use of the various "Japanese scripts". "Japanese script" by itself is no more accurate than "the Japanese script". — [Ric Laurent] — 23:08, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Can't say as I agree, but I'm happy to let this lie. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 23:18, 11 August 2011 (UTC)
Excellent. Sweet. Tubular. — [Ric Laurent] — 23:19, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

I need a template-expert here

No tears. Only hugs.

Holy damn. This is crazy. Insane. Made me mad. Plus it worked well on ат, but failed on тіл. Could you help me? Or we shall delete it before I start to cry. I've tried to handle it for 3 hours :'/ Sinek 00:05, 14 August 2011 (UTC)

Oh fuck, Sinek, I got so absorbed in that Estonian shit I forgt about this. I'll take some time in the morning to do it and try to get it all straightened out :) — [Ric Laurent] — 01:19, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Oh, by the way... no tears. Only hugs. — [Ric Laurent] — 01:34, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
I want to cuddle you as tight as I can. Thanks a million tovarish Sinek 13:48, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
Bir şey değil, bebeğim :) — [Ric Laurent] — 15:35, 14 August 2011 (UTC)
To mora biti ljubav... Maro 18:16, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Lol не так ли? Но я думаю, что такая ситуация бы не понравилась моему парню.
Sinek'im, kako se bi kazalo na turskom "threesome"? Znash, bir yatakta 3 adam (or whatever)? :) — [Ric Laurent] — 19:45, 15 August 2011 (UTC)
Oops, oprosti, I've just noticed this conversation. Bir yatakta 3 adam is rather "3 men in one bed", doesn't define the word actually :D We just say üçlü (trio) for threesome. Also more common, grup seks, but as you see, it doesn't stress the number of participants lol :D Sinek 01:48, 22 August 2011 (UTC)
Bir yatakta 3 adam... doing... things haha :D Thanks dear — [Ric Laurent] — 01:51, 22 August 2011 (UTC)


My son has problems with colours - so no problem with the changes, and liked the Greek translations. But, I've reverted the table width change you made. —Saltmarshtalk-συζήτηση 13:41, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Maybe it would look different on my computer (which has a pretty big ass monitor), but the specific 50em on the template looks about exactly the same as full width, I guess I thought it just wasn't registering or something lol.
I can't remember when I started including native-lang grammar terms, but I think they'll be really useful with languages where most of the grammar information to be found is native-language. I know there are some for which it's really hard to find anything in English... Which reminds me that I need to add grammar terms to my Albanian templates like...righteffingnow. Thanks for sparking this self-reminder :D — [Ric Laurent] — 13:51, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

Template question for you

Hey there Dick --

I've run into a brick wall with a conjugation template for Navajo that I'm working on, and I was hoping you might have some insight. Navajo verbs are quite complicated, partly due to certain regular sound shifts that happen depending on what prefixes are present and on what sounds wind up next to each other. To copy an example I posted over on Ruakh's talk page:

For instance, the verb form for "we two play" in imperfective mode would be na (disjunct prefix marking atelicity) + iid (dual first-person infix for this kind of verb) + (classifier, which for this verb is nothing) + (imperfective verb stem). But naiidné is incorrect:

  • If a disjunct prefix ends in a and is immediately followed by an i, it changes to an e.
  • If a d is immediately followed by an n, it changes to a ʼ glottal stop.

So "we two play" would be neiiʼné instead.

There's plenty more that can happen, but this should give a rough idea. For reference, to show the formatting I'm currently working with, have a look at User:Eirikr/Template_Tests/Sample. I've got a rough draft of the template set up to at least allow use of the table, but without the conjugation code, the user has to (rather laboriously) supply all of the verb forms. But given how most Navajo verbs could be built algorithmically, the goal is to be able to just supply the five verb stem forms and a few other arguments, and then have the template do all the heavy lifting.

The brick wall in question is because I sometimes need to get the *last* character or two in a string, while the available parser functions only allow me to get the first character or two in a string. It's particularly troublesome to me that {{padleft:|1|xyz}} and {{padright:|1|xyz}} both produce x -- this sure looks like a design mistake, as I'd expect padright to give me the rightmost character instead.

Anyway, that limitation is leading me to think I'll need to abandon my wikitext-only approach and use JavaScript instead, which leads me to wonder if you've done anything similar yourself? Is it possible to use a JS script as part of a template, so that it's called automatically when the template is invoked? What would be the best approach? Are there any good Help pages about this? Etc., etc.

TIA for any ideas, -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 14:45, 24 August 2011 (UTC)

So, I've never encountered any pattern of verb conjugation quite like that of Navajo, so at this precise moment in time I can't put 100% effort into understanding the exact and minute needs of the template... I've done a lot of templates, though, some of them considerably involved in terms of template and auxiliary template functioning. One of my proudest is the Turkish set (Category:Turkish conjugation-table templates) and even that is incomplete. Just the intricacy of what's there already just makes me so happy. Ermm fuck sorry, got all stuck on myself for a minute there. Aaaaaanyway, line break,
The template functions you're describing are rather confusing to me, perhaps because I've never used them or just because at the moment I'm rather stoned - more likely some combination of both - and I think the way of templating that I've developed in my odd brainz should work for Navajo. The fantastically basic understanding so far says that, like Turkish, certain parts of the displayed result will depend on the different components of a word. The way I write these templates is based on that: the parameters given to the template in an entry will run through patterns defined in the template and return grammatically correct results. The more information I have to study the needs of a Navajo template, the easier this will be to do for me. Though Stephen's concern that Navajo simply has too much variation to hope for a completely automated template based on just a few given parameters, I'm confident that we can do at least some of the conjugation for Navajo by template, even with several parameters being required. In the end I would hope for something that would be simple to use, given a concise guide to use.
As a side note to my already horrendously long reply, I'd like to apologize for just that. As I mentioned briefly before, I'm pretty considerably high and I get... ridiculously wordy under such circumstances. :D Vă urez zi bună, tovarăș călător Eiríkr. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:21, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Cheers, enjoy the buzz! I'll have a look at those Turkish templates later today. For reference / mindbending / ignoring, at your discretion: w:Navajo_language#Verbs.
Vă urez zi bună, tovarăș călător Eiríkr.
Schade, aber ich habe gar keine Ahnung was Du hier gesagt hast... vielleicht doch was in Rumänische? Tschüß für jetzt! -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 15:53, 24 August 2011 (UTC)
Ich habe einfach "Ich wünsche dir einen guten Tag, Kamerad Reisender Eiríkr" gesagt. Or something like that. My German is rather limited, I'm afraid, so pardon any oddness or incorrectness in the finer points of writing... But yes, it was indeed Romanian. :) — [Ric Laurent] — 16:09, 24 August 2011 (UTC)


I'm always happy to see new names, but I think Latin script Zemfira is a transliteration. There are no English/Finnish/Swedish speaking Zemfiras, it always refers to Russian speakers. I've no knowledge of Belarusian/Ukrainian/Armenian, so I haven't touched those entries. Do you have other sources for the names besides the Wikipedia article about the Russian singer? User:Diego Grez made similar entries about Selena, and the Amharic entry at least made me nervous. Here are some discussions about language statements of given names: Wiktionary:Tea room/Archive 2011/March#Proper nouns, languages and scripts and Wiktionary:Beer parlour archive/2010/June#Categories for transliterated names. --Makaokalani 14:56, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

It's not as if we give the bitch a new name in English. You wouldn't ask her "what is your transliteration." If you ask her name in English, she wouldn't say "Oh I don't have a name in English, only a transliteration". Our entry is representative of the form her name takes in English (and the numerous others). Whether it's a translation or a transliteration, it's still a name that is used in English. Are you really going to sit there and say that no Russian immigrant anywhere has named their child "Zemfira", or that if they do that it shouldn't be counted as English because it's "a Russian name"? Please. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:03, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
It is basically translingual use of a Russian given name. Just like when an Italian says, "My name is Giovanna", an Italian name is used in an English sentence. It doesn't become an English name; there is no need for an English entry. But since Cyrillic script cannot be used in English, a transliteration is needed in written text and an English entry is needed. About children of Russian immigrants, please see Wiktionary:About given names and surnames#The language statement of a name. Without this distinction, all language statements of given names would become meaningless. --Makaokalani 15:35, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm of the opinion that beyond the origin of a name, the language is meaningless. The way we handle names is just messy, so I apologize for continuing to add names in the simplistic way that I do, but... I'm not going to let myself be dragged into this crosscultural issue. I've always kept my name entries pretty simple, so they'll be there for you to "improve" in whatever way you choose, but don't be too irritated with me if I don't make an effort to convert myself to this other system. — [Ric Laurent] — 15:42, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
OK. As long as you don't revert what I see as "improvements":-)--Makaokalani 15:55, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
As long as I don't see them as the opposite of improvements, which shouldn't be much of an issue lol. While I have you on my talky, could you do me a solid and translate this into Finnish for an example sentence? "The hummingbird is the only bird that can fly backwards". — [Ric Laurent] — 16:05, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Kolibri on ainoa lintu joka osaa lentää takaperin.--Makaokalani 16:13, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Ah lovely, thank you :) — [Ric Laurent] — 16:15, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

I have a neighbor whose name is Զեմֆիրա (Zemfira), so it's an Armenian name in Makao's sense. --Vahag 16:49, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

The singer is Bashkir, too. I think her dad was Bashkir and her mom was Kazakh or something... another of the Turkic ethnicities. Speaking of which... I suppose I should stop putting off work on Bashkir templates. Poo — [Ric Laurent] — 16:54, 7 September 2011 (UTC)


where are you from?

  1. Originally, currently, psychologically or spiritually?
  2. Why do you ask?
  3. Identify yourself or be destroyed!!!
:D — [Ric Laurent] — 22:24, 12 September 2011 (UTC)