User talk:Liliana-60/archive2

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to: navigation, search


Unprotecting Beer parlour[edit]

Please unprotect BP that you have now protected. I will no longer respond to MG in that discussion, but I want to be able to post to BP. I admit to being unyielding but so has been Martin Gardner. --Dan Polansky 14:47, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

I will do this only under the premise that you will be blocked should you continue arguing in this discussion. -- Prince Kassad 15:00, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
The offer of the block is ridiculous. Above all, the thing in BP is clearly a bear fight in which any party can give in, whether me or MG, but you have chosen me as your target. (One assymetry is that MG is producing fallacious arguments whereas I am stubbornly refusing to leave them unobjected.) After all, you have not responded to my "Prince Kassad, you are making a blank accusation of my incivility. Do you care to provide a diff or two that shows what you consider my incivility?"
There is very little doubt that you are biased against me and favor MG.
Disclaimer: If you do not want me to talk to you on your talk page, please say so. If you want to block me, please say "stop talking to me or I will block you". --Dan Polansky 15:11, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
I am expecting MG to stop as well. The BP is clearly not the right place for such a discussion to take place. I do welcome opinions from unbiased people, but mindless bitchering is not the right way to go on. -- Prince Kassad 15:15, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
I do not think that my arguments were mindless at all, but I admit that the bear fight is of no interest to most people and that I should have tried to end it earlier. I promise that I will try hard to no longer respond in that thread in BP. The only reason why I do not want to make a wholly unconditional promise is that there could be actions by MG that would warrant a response nonetheless.
Your accusation of my incivility is still unbased. You should better retract it or provide the diffs, I think.
The disclaimer from above applies. --Dan Polansky 15:21, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
If it makes you any happier, I'll gladly back up my statement. This restoration of a bad accusation after the user removed it from his own talk page was totally inappropriate. -- Prince Kassad 15:44, 22 March 2011 (UTC)
I admit that my accusation was very likely wrong. However, the user in question was already accused of Wonderfoolery by several other people. When you are accused of being Wonderfool, removing that accusation from your talk page is the last thing you should do. Removing these sorts of accusations was what Wonderfool actually was doing, and what has helped me discover him under one of his accounts. I think I was justified in reverting the removal given the evidence at hand. I have ceased reverting after msh210 has explained to me that the accusation is probably wrong. In this case, I cannot confirm anything uncivil. --Dan Polansky 16:43, 22 March 2011 (UTC)

Could KassadBot switch links to use {{l}}?[edit]

Any chance KassadBot could be modified to switch simple [[ ]] links in derived terms sections and synonyms sections and such to use {{l}}, to link to the correct language sections? I think it would be very helpful. --Yair rand 04:49, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Short answer is yes, I don't know how, but it seems to be possible. Second point; the bot might remove the only links on the page in doing so, so afterwards it might have to add {{count page}} (see section below this one). Mglovesfun (talk) 15:46, 13 April 2011 (UTC)
It;s undesirable IMO when he linked-to entry is English or Translingual (so the link goes to the top of the page anyway, and without using {{l}} we save a template call) or its page has and is likely to remain with only one language section.​—msh210 (talk) 15:49, 13 April 2011 (UTC)


Someone just undid an KassadBot edit, where the bot converting ===Statistics=== to ====Statistics====. Is there an agreement over what level it should be? Mglovesfun (talk) 12:48, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

The bot seems to be a bit confused when there are multiple etymologies. I am checking what's causing it, don't have any strong clues yet. -- Prince Kassad 12:57, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
addendum: I messed with the code a bit. Tell me when it still goes wrong. -- Prince Kassad 13:01, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Your blocking me[edit]

As you could have guessed, my removing your vote in the poll has been an inadvertent effect of my response to Ruakh (diff). I am sorry for the removal. However, you cannot possibly believe that I wanted to remove your vote as part of my comment, and hope for it to go unnoticed, right? Accidental removal of things as part of responses in Beer parlour has happened several times to various people. Furthermore, why don't you talk to me about it instead of blocking me? It seems like some sort of punitive block, which is frowned upon in Wiktionary; you should check WT:BLOCK. --Dan Polansky 13:26, 7 April 2011 (UTC)

Accidental removal of things as part of responses certainly happens several times; it's very easy to assume they are mistakes, and very hard to assume they are malicious manipulations of discussions, even if the subject of alteration is a vote. Kassad, please don't block people for that reason again. --Daniel. 13:40, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I too saw this block and didn't know what it referred to. Mglovesfun (talk) 13:45, 7 April 2011 (UTC)
I only saw the block after seeing this thread. --Daniel. 13:56, 7 April 2011 (UTC)


why is KassadBot (+{{count page}} for statistics ?? OrenBochman 12:21, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Short answer: Wiktionary:Page count. --Mglovesfun (talk) 12:23, 12 April 2011 (UTC)

Japanese mythology[edit]

Please tell your bot not to move "Category:Japanese mythology" to the Japanese section.

(And, presumably, "Category:Greek mythology" to the Greek section, and so on.)

Example edit:

Thanks in advance. --Daniel. 16:03, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

Added to the exceptions list. -- Prince Kassad 16:05, 14 April 2011 (UTC)

herr prince kassad[edit]

Verständiger einwand in der frage zur namensgebung von der stadt balchasch. Der typ is deutscher klugscheißer der seine aussagn ausm internet kopiert hat. Ich bin august 90 in der stadt balchasch geboren und hab den besseren standpunkt


I find it odd that you nominate {{None}} for deletion, but then use it in templates. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:43, 27 April 2011 (UTC)

That was before {{Xyzy}} failed RFDO, which actually surprised me. (I assumed we would find some kind of replacement until then) That RfD on Template:None should probably be closed as keep. -- Prince Kassad 20:44, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Like I said on RFDO, isn't None redundant to Latn? Mglovesfun (talk) 20:45, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, {{Latn}} has the span tag mention-Latn, which by default sets the word in italics. This is apparently not wanted for non-Latin scripts (especially Cyrillic which has vastly different italic forms). -- Prince Kassad 20:46, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Doesn't that mean that {{term}}, to pick one example, would no longer italicise unless sc=Latn was actually specified? Mglovesfun (talk) 20:48, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Actually, yes. For that, we'd need to find some kind of solution. -- Prince Kassad 20:49, 27 April 2011 (UTC)
Well, use Latn but specify the script for non Latin entries. I think in any event, these are interim solutions until one of the solutions previously suggested at WT:GP gains a majority over the other. Which is why I brought the topic up again today. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:51, 27 April 2011 (UTC)


Please stop "deprecating" Xyzy immediately. It is not O.K. —RuakhTALK 17:35, 30 April 2011 (UTC)

Why? -- Prince Kassad 17:36, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
See Wiktionary:Grease pit#Xyzy, again. Specifically, see all the comments there that aren't your own. —RuakhTALK 17:39, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Prince Kassad, must you throw the toys out of the pram when anyone opposes you? It's really, really annoying. Ruakh at the very least has a valid point. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:59, 30 April 2011 (UTC)
Because he's a young thing and the drama hormones rage. — [ R·I·C ] Laurent — 21:38, 30 April 2011 (UTC)


Thanks.​—msh210 (talk) 15:46, 10 May 2011 (UTC)

count page[edit]

Does KassadBot remove {{count page}} when it's no longer necessary, like autoformat used to do? I've noticed a bunch of edits where it formatted other stuff but left the template alone even though the page had links. --Yair rand 10:50, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

It doesn't. The whole {{count page}} thing is a hack I had to add because the source code provided by Ullmann was missing it altogether. -- Prince Kassad 11:45, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Attestation of extinct languages[edit]

To get things moving, I would right now create a vote "Attestation of extinct languages 2", which drops the "mention" part to get voter acceptance. If I create the vote, I will also omit the "Extinct language" section altogether, leaving only the modification to "Attestation" section. What spurs me to want to do it is the current result of the running vote Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2010-12/Attestation_of_extinct_languages, which is 0-3-2. If the currently running vote turns out to change into support, the new vote can be canceled.

I would now go and create the follow-up vote myself, but I want to give you a chance to create the vote yourself, as it is your initiative, and a good one. Please let me know what you think. --Dan Polansky 08:36, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

It would be a much better idea to create a vote on what was suggested on the talk page, i. e. delegating language-specific CFI issues to the (currently underused) About pages. Even though I'm still not happy with that, it would have a much higher chance of success. -- Prince Kassad 09:44, 19 May 2011 (UTC)
I am unenthusiastic about delegating language-specific CFI to about pages of languages: the pages are not locked from editing without voting, and this method allows proliferation of disparate language-specific CFIs when a more compact CFI ranging across languages is possible. I am enthusiastic about creating a follow-up vote worded similarly to the current vote. I am going to create the follow-up tomorrow or later, to give you the opportunity to create it yourself. --Dan Polansky 09:50, 19 May 2011 (UTC)

Punctuation marks[edit]

Hi. Please tell your bot to consider "Punctuation mark" a good L3 header. Thanks in advance. --Daniel. 23:22, 22 May 2011 (UTC)

You can do this yourself. Just add the new header to the table at User:AutoFormat/Headers. -- Prince Kassad 23:38, 22 May 2011 (UTC)
I didn't know that. Thank you for telling me. --Daniel. 23:41, 22 May 2011 (UTC)



¶ Your robot ‘dislikes’ certain “level 4” headers, but our page which explains entry layout recommends using “level 4” on headers such as References. I detect a contradiction. --Pilcrow 03:30, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

I think it's the bot getting confused when there is an erroneous level 3 header occuring above the references section (such as Anagrams). Since it cannot find a valid part of speech in this case, it tags the page accordingly. -- Prince Kassad 03:48, 15 June 2011 (UTC)

Something your bot did[edit]

[1] It added a headword template with no code... —CodeCat 14:53, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Ah! I can tell why. The bot goes by its own list, User:AutoFormat/Languages, and that one does not have Low German, only Low Saxon. Robert Ullmann had a bot that would refresh this list semi-automatically, but now, it's been dormant for months. We'd need a bot to regenerate it again. -- Prince Kassad 16:24, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
There is {{langrev}} now if that helps. —CodeCat 16:46, 19 June 2011 (UTC)
Do note that with the current code, the language list is loaded at once on runtime, this could prove to be a bit difficult with 7,000+ subtemplates. Changing the functionality is difficult, and it might take me some time. -- Prince Kassad 16:51, 19 June 2011 (UTC)

Are you a boy or girl?[edit]

I need to know. --Vahag 08:43, 6 July 2011 (UTC)

This user has given her gender as 'female'. —RuakhTALK 11:06, 6 July 2011 (UTC)


I can't see the difference between this and the link to version. Is it an encoding issue? A deprecated Unicode character or something? Thanks in advance, --Mglovesfun (talk) 18:25, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

That one took me a while to figure out. As it seems, the entry marked for deletion used a soft hyphen, which shouldn't really appear in page titles (it's only there to faciliate line breaking, which is useless for headings). -- Liliana 18:43, 17 July 2011 (UTC)

AF job involving Anagrams[edit]

Sorry, not sure if I should post this here, or at User:KassadBot. After WT:Votes/pl-2009-12/Modify anagram section of ELE, Conrad has his bot updating the anagram layout (to be horizontal) whenever the anagram "set" get updated. This doesn't happen that often, which means that even given 1.5 years, most haven't been converted (and some are still quite long, cf narteci). Would you be able to have your AF bot update the anagram layouts if it was already going to edit the page (which should be much more frequent)? Thanks. --Bequw τ 14:01, 18 July 2011 (UTC)

There's a bit of a problem with that; {{alphagram}} is now blank (by design) but the vote still says to use it followed by a colon, which simply created a colon before the list of anagrams. I guess the vote ignores the fact that {{alphagram}} can be modified. --Mglovesfun (talk) 20:35, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
Well if there's no agreement yet on what I should do, I'll sit here and wait until there is one. -- Liliana 21:03, 18 July 2011 (UTC)
I was not suggesting Liliana's AF bot modify the alphagrams portion, just replace "\n*" with "," in vertical listing of anagrams (that are after the alphagram, if present). Does this side-step the issue sufficiently? Fixing up the alphagrams, if that's needed, can be a separate issue. --Bequw τ 12:16, 20 July 2011 (UTC)
Side-stepping sounds good to me! --Mglovesfun (talk) 20:53, 20 July 2011 (UTC)

Strange edit[edit]

diff --Yair rand 18:29, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Ha, yeah. I have no idea why it does that. -- Liliana 05:37, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
It may be a byproduct of the fact that there is no Template:jp. Possibly? --EncycloPetey 05:39, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
I think it's more because it somehow interprets {{subst:xx}} as {{sub}}. Of course, the former only actually appears on any page when someone tries to subst a nonexistent template. -- Liliana 05:41, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Unlinking Galician[edit]

Your bot is unlinking this language name in Translation sections. Was there a decision to unlink all language names? It would be a bad idea to unlink this one, in part because there are actually two very different regions in Europe called Galicia in English, and Galician is only spoken in one of them. --EncycloPetey 02:36, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

It only does this on the entry on the language name itself. It can't link to itself in this case, so the link is removed. -- Liliana 03:49, 26 July 2011 (UTC)
Ah, understood. Thanks for explaining that. And, by the way, thanks for all the important bot work you've been doing for the past few months. --EncycloPetey 04:47, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Britain and Ireland[edit]

Hi Liliana,

I'm not a regular contributor to Wiktionary, but I notice two entries I contributed to were nominated for deleted. I know the nominator from Wikipedia, where we clash on the same topics of the two entries. It looks like he followed me here when Wiktionary was mentioned in a discussion on Wikipedia. One was Anglo-Celtic Isles, which was kept. The other was Britain and Ireland, which was deleted.

I'm not surprised it was deleted. The first entry was simply that the term might refer to the islands of Britain and Ireland (individually). The second entry was more fitting and was that the term is a synonym to British Isles. That might be surprising, but there are plenty of references to support it being so. For example:

"Some of the Irish dislike the 'British' in 'British Isles', while a minority of the Welsh and Scottish are not keen on 'Great Britain'. … In response to these difficulties, 'Britain and Ireland' is becoming preferred official usage if not in the vernacular, although there is a growing trend amongst some critics to refer to Britain and Ireland as 'the archipelago'." (Davies, Alistair; Sinfield, Alan (2000), British Culture of the Postwar: An Introduction to Literature and Society, 1945-1999, Routledge, p. 9, ISBN 0415128110)

"At the outset, it should be stated that while the expression 'The British Isles' is evidently still commonly employed, its intermittent use throughout this work is only in the geographic sense, in so far as that is acceptable. Since the early twentieth century, that nomenclature has been regarded by some as increasingly less usable. It has been perceived as cloaking the idea of a 'greater England', or an extended south-eastern English imperium, under a common Crown since 1603 onwards. … Nowadays, however, 'Britain and Ireland' is the more favoured expression, though there are problems with that too. … There is no consensus on the matter, inevitably. It is unlikely that the ultimate in non-partisanship that has recently appeared the (East) 'Atlantic Archipelago' will have any appeal beyond captious scholars." (Hazlett, Ian (2003). The Reformation in Britain and Ireland: an introduction. Continuum International Publishing Group. p. 17. ISBN 9780567082800.)

I'm not familiar with practice on Wiktionary but I don't want to simply re-create a deleted entry. So, I am wondering what the usual process is for re-creating a deleted entry or re-opening an RfD? --Rannpháirtí anaithnid 17:48, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

In the deletion discussion, people expressed concern that this entry is "sum of parts", i. e. that knowing the terms Britain and Ireland is sufficient to understand this compound. We don't really have any kind of procedure for overturning deletion discussions - my best suggestion is to start up a discussion on the Tea room, people there are likely to help you. -- Liliana 03:52, 27 July 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I've opened a discussion there.
Ironcially, some opposition to the expression (including comments voiced during the RFD) is that it is not the sum of it's parts (i.e. that the British Isles contains more places than Britain and Ireland).
In any case, thanks for your help. --Rannpháirtí anaithnid 07:58, 27 July 2011 (UTC)

vandalism protector[edit]

Thanks for protecting me against Sven's vandalism on my talk page. :) ---> Tooironic 08:01, 31 July 2011 (UTC)

eine kleine Frage[edit]

Hi Liliana-60
ich sah, dass du was auf meiner Diskussions-Seite geschrieben hast. Danke für die Info. Da hatte ich nicht zu viele Zeit geschweige denn dass ich darauf antworten konnte, da ich für einige Zeit inaktiv gewesen war.
Du hast mir vorgesclagen mich hier einzutragen, und das habe ich bereits getan, aber es sind leider wenige Leute da, die das billigen. Daran war ich und bin noch interessiert und werde immer...Es sind, glaube ich zumindest, wenige Befürworter da und solange es wenige Zustimmer gibt, dann gibt es kein wikisource.ku, das kann ich mir vorstellen.
Ich danke dir vielmals, dass du dieses Projekt unterstützt.Dass mit dem Kurdischen, da werde ich Vieles da eintragen und es ist ein anderes Gefühl dafür mich aucch, wenn da auch ein wikisource.ku gibt. Liebe Grüße und tausen Dank an dir.George Animal 08:36, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
PS:Warum kann ich mich als George Animal nicht einloggen.Ich dachte daran, ein account zu erstellen namens George Animal, aber es wurde nicht akzeptiert, oder es erschein dass der Name schon vorhanden ist. Dann gab mein Passwort, mit ich mich überall in allen anderen Projekte wie wiktionary, wikipedia, dann und ich bekomme eine Warnung, dass das Passwort nicht stimmt. Was kann ich tun?George Animal 08:36, 27 August 2011 (UTC)


As you can see, Category:Requests for autoformat has a little over 1000 entries. Do you intend to keep running the bot, is it just not practical to do it right now? Mglovesfun (talk) 11:35, 27 August 2011 (UTC)

There's some strange problem that appeared recently that causes it to quit very often, which makes it a real pain to keep the bot running. Of course I can still try, but it's very bothersome. -- Liliana 12:15, 27 August 2011 (UTC)
Do you think you could try running it from time to time (perhaps weekly?) and not restarting it between times if it stops? Even that would doubtless help quite a bit. Thanks for your consideration.​—msh210 (talk) 20:50, 14 September 2011 (UTC)

standard precautions[edit]

thanks for giving the entry and chance.Gtroy 05:25, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Category:Hassānīya language[edit]

Are you able to add a script (or scripts) and a family? Note the only Hassānīya entry we have is in the Latin script. Mglovesfun (talk) 08:59, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

The family was already given. I did note the script as Latin, especially since my Hassaniya dictionary uses Latin as well. -- Liliana 13:15, 16 September 2011 (UTC)

Ge'ez entries[edit]

Thanks for restoring my Ge'ez entry. Now I know a little bit better how to add words. I will continue with a few more, and also include latin transliterations. /Leos Friend 21:17, 25 September 2011 (UTC)

protecting pages[edit]


It may be wrong to protect pages because of one user but can you suggest anything else? I've been trying not just revert everything he does but fix and use some of the positive information he adds. It's hard though. He is very productive and inventive as far as avoiding blocks goes and his whole activity is about to show that Mandarin can be written in Roman letters, proving his point and edit-warring. --Anatoli 05:35, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Why don't you just go around and block him? By now, this is a serious suggestion. -- Liliana 05:54, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
I thought you knew this guy. ;) Heard about abc123? The problem is, he was blocked many times but he reincarnates himself as someone else and generates IP addresses in any range (range block does bother him). At times he behaves civilly, so there was no big pressure to do something radical by the community. --Anatoli 06:10, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
When I say "him" (I'm almost sure it's a male), I mean all the IP addresses he generated automatically, most of them were blocked. He is easily recognsable by his pinyin entries , noone does it so eagerly. Recently he added mixed English-Chinese combinations or entire English words in Mandarin. --Anatoli 06:14, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
The problem is that by fully protecting this page, you also prevent legitimate editors from editing the page. If you weed out his alternate accounts, and semi-protect affected pages to wall off his IPs, you at least give other people a chance to contribute. I think this is a more user-friendly way of dealing with him. -- Liliana 12:55, 4 October 2011 (UTC)
I will have to unprotect them very soon, it was just an emergency measure. --Anatoli 13:19, 4 October 2011 (UTC)

Category:Matacoan languages[edit]

Do we have a language code for this family? I see you created the phylum Category:Mataco-Guaicuru languages qfa-mgc, but several languages are specifically Matacoan. At the moment I've used Template:etyl:Matacoan, modelled on other etyl: templates that are names not codes, but it seems nonstandard. Is there a list of these family codes somewhere? Thanks for your help and for refining my categorisations like mqm! - -sche (discuss) 05:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)

Also, do have have a code for Penutian and/or its subcategories? - -sche (discuss) 05:55, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
I don't think either of these have codes. There is a list of codes at Wiktionary:Families, but it hasn't been updated in a long while. -- Liliana 06:00, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
Alright. Do you think there would be any problem if I created Template:qfa-mtc for Matacoan? - -sche (discuss) 06:12, 6 October 2011 (UTC)
That shouldn't be a problem at all. -- Liliana 11:56, 6 October 2011 (UTC) (addendum: I see you've already done so under the correct name, {{etyl:qfa-mtc}}. )

Autoformat functionality[edit]

What is the current state of the functionality previously delivered by Autoformat? For a time Kassadbot was delivering it I thought. I have seen mention of other bots, but haven't seen evidence in the cleanup categories that any of them are now working, at least on English entries, but also on structure for all entries. DCDuring TALK 14:29, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

TheDaveRoss is working on an AutoFormat replacement, but God knows when it will be finished. Best to ask him about it. -- Liliana 14:33, 14 October 2011 (UTC)
Thanks. I hope we can get the capability back. I wish I had the chops to do it myself. DCDuring TALK 17:39, 14 October 2011 (UTC)

BP comment[edit]

Lol, that comment was actually meant as a genuine one. --Rockpilot 20:18, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, but it is really insensitive. Please don't do that. -- Liliana 20:23, 15 October 2011 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/2011-10/Categories of names 3[edit]

Because you voted in Wiktionary:Votes/2011-07/Categories of names, I'm informing you of this new vote.​—msh210 (talk) 01:55, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

and see[edit]

This entry was not intended as a joke; even if was regarded as sum-of-parts it would be useful as a way to find translations in other languages. I would appreciate the chance to get the community's input on this. Fugyoo 22:00, 19 October 2011 (UTC)

I know it wasn't intended as a joke, but I don't see how this would be useful as a translation entry, given that all other languages I know translate it the same (German: und sieh, French: et vois). Feel free to discuss this to your heart's content at WT:RFD#and see, though. -- Liliana 22:04, 19 October 2011 (UTC)


Hi. When your bot creates pages, he doesn't add all the imperatives: see bezieh for example. Any reason? Can the imperative be added? I assume it would be simple. --Rockpilot 18:35, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

/archive#imperatives -- Liliana 18:58, 21 October 2011 (UTC)
Sparkliest (talkcontribs), huh? Seems like he was a pretty awesome user. Anyway, enjoy User:Rockpilot/German verbs needing conjugation - that should be enough work to make you want to kill yourself! --Rockpilot 19:01, 21 October 2011 (UTC)

Latin Pronunciation n headers[edit]

Robert Ullman's version of AF put Latin terms into a subcategory of the rfc-structure category because contributors of Latin terms seem to use Pronunciation as a L3 header and Etymology as an L4 header regularly, apparently for good reasons. DCDuring TALK 02:35, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

more regulars[edit]

Hi Princess, what other German verbs behave in a regular manner? Those ones I can pick off at User:Liliana-60/German verbs needing conjugation. --Rockpilot 08:58, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

You can do those that end in -eln or -ern. These are very easy. -- Liliana 13:35, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Regarding the -eln ones, are there always 3 possibilities for first-person singular, like at babbeln? I'm probably not going to be able to spot any strong verbs among them all. --Rockpilot 14:22, 25 October 2011 (UTC)
Yeah, those three possibilities are always attestable. There are no strong verbs among them, but as always, there may be separable ones. -- Liliana 14:25, 25 October 2011 (UTC)

flood flag[edit]

I don't know whether you watchlist the page, so am pointing out that you might be interested in [[Wiktionary talk:Requests for flood flag#procedure]].​—msh210 (talk) 00:11, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Thank you[edit]

Thank you; the thing I just can't understand is why the person who deleted all those dozens of Mandarin categories, then never restored them, won't clean up after his/her mess. Don't we all feel a sense of responsibility at this project? Personally, I wouldn't delete a category (let alone deleting dozens of well-populated categories in a single day) without being prepared to move all the entries to the new categories they have been replaced with. Can we get some action on this? It's really an embarrassment that the most widely spoken language in the world has only red categories for the various subjects such as Astronomy, Music, Plants, etc. 07:55, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

We're currently in the process of moving all the Chinese categories to a new system, so in the time being, there may be a bit of a mess. I wish I could help, but I am myself unfamiliar with the new system used. -- Liliana 10:29, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

The new categories seem to be in place, but 99% of them are redlinked. There shouldn't be a delay like that and the editors who redlinked the categories (the same ones who don't answer any discussion page comments or questions about this issue) shouldn't be doing other editing (presumably on more fun or exciting things) before this is taken care of. 23:02, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Ɛ, ɛ deleted in error[edit]

My bad, sorry. I was rushing, and thought I was deleting some incorrect redirects I had just created. I'm back online now and will undelete them at once. --Enginear 09:04, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

Both now undeleted. --Enginear 09:13, 2 November 2011 (UTC)

unblocking queen[edit]

Good move, Princess, the whole unblocking Gtroy thing. It shows you're one of the nice guys. --Rockpilot 22:46, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

bumfuck deletion[edit]

So, I take it {{temp|delete}} is what we use for speedy deletion around here? Purplebackpack89 (Notes Taken) (Locker) 23:42, 5 November 2011 (UTC)

You would use {{delete}} to tag an entry for speedy deletion. {{temp}} is just the Wiktionary-esque variety of w:Template:Tl which you should be familiar with. -- Liliana 23:45, 5 November 2011 (UTC)


hey could you move it to lowercase for me, I cannot, thanks.Westernstag 03:25, 7 November 2011 (UTC)

most bumfuck[edit]

can you explain to me why you deleted it? Is it because it is formulaic and not "bumfucker" but rather "more bumfuck"? 08:22, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Yup. We do not create entries for any adjective forms that are compared using more/most, and the fact they were linked was a mere mistake. You can easily figure out the meaning if you know what more/most means. -- Liliana 12:53, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Okay that makes sense to me, how can I format an entry so that it doesn't create the links? 22:33, 9 November 2011 (UTC)
Use {{en-adj}} without any parameters, and it will automatically fill in more/most. -- Liliana 22:45, 9 November 2011 (UTC)

Kassadbot and POS header[edit]

Hi, I was wondering if I could ask KassadBot to recognize the header "Adjectival noun" which has been agreed upon recently for Japanese at BP:Proper label for Japanese "quasi-adjectives". Thanks Haplology 13:41, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

Whoop, yes, I just came here to say the same thing.  :) Linky: WT:BEER#Preferred_forms_for_Japanese_lemmata. TIA, Liliana -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 16:21, 10 November 2011 (UTC)
User:Mglovesfun has added the header to User:AutoFormat/Headers. Tell me if there are still any problems. -- Liliana 17:38, 10 November 2011 (UTC)

KassadBot and ja-readings[edit]

Hello Liliana --

I just noticed in this edit that KassadBot has been adding * before {{ja-readings}}. This is completely superfluous, as the template ignores any * earlier in the line. I've been stripping it out whenever I edit readings, in part since it's superfluous, and in part since I find it makes it harder for me to visually parse the wikicode. Would you be so kind as to tweak the bot's code? -- Cheers, Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 20:06, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Actually, it is doing this for consistency purposes since it does the same for other templates such as {{IPA}} or {{R:Webster 1913}}. It would not make sense to change it for one template and leave it as is for the others. You would have to gain consensus to change the practice for all affected templates. -- Liliana 00:06, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Okay. I'm assuming this has to do with the details of how the bot works? The {{IPA}} and {{R:Webster 1913}} templates are inline, and adding a bullet beforehand makes sense. The issue with {{ja-readings}} is that the template provides its own bulleted list. Quick sample with a leading * mark:
and without a leading * mark:
and an example with only one line and no leading * mark, just to show that we still get a bullet in these cases as well:
-- Cheers, Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 01:39, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
These two are inline, yes. But for example {{Han ref}} isn't, and it also gets an asterisk prepended. -- Liliana 15:32, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Interesting. Just as for {{ja-readings}}, {{Han ref}} ignores any leading asterisks or hash marks.
I'm curious -- what is the criterion the bot uses to determine if it should add a leading asterisk? From your initial comment, it sounds like there is a particular class of template that it uses? (And just in case it's at all unclear, none of this is criticism, I'm just interested in learning how bots work in the hopes of possibly making my own at some point. :) -- Cheers, 17:25, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
It uses a simple array! The contents, if you are curious:
{{Han ref}}, {{ja-readings}}, {{ethnologue}}, {{websters-online}}, {{pedialite}}, {{Hanja ref}}, {{Linguist List}}, {{IPA}}, {{SAMPA}}, {{enPR}}, {{ISO 639}}, {{R:Webster 1913}}. Most of these are inline, only Han ref, ja-readings and ISO 639 are not. -- Liliana 17:30, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

KassadBot adding countpage templates[edit]

Hi. See this: [2] and for example this bot edit: [3]. Given SemperBlotto's comment, should your bot still be doing this? Equinox 17:46, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

The template is still needed, otherwise your pages will not count. -- Liliana 17:47, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
They do. Try an experiment. SemperBlotto 17:48, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Huh. It seems you're right. Then, should we orphan the template? -- Liliana 17:55, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
I would just leave it alone. It is used in a very very great number of places. SemperBlotto 17:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
If it is in fact superfluous, there's no reason for it to exist, and orphaning it would take two weeks at most. -- Liliana 17:59, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
Sure, if you do it slow. Just attack the server. If it can handle water, it can handle a speedy bot removal. — [Ric Laurent] — 18:04, 15 November 2011 (UTC)
If possible, you could also remove multiple blank lines left after removing the templates? MglovesfunBot is doing that now. --Mglovesfun (talk) 22:53, 21 November 2011 (UTC)
Mmh, I don't know, I'm just using a script which does nothing else but remove the template - of course that also means it runs really fast, as you may have noticed. -- Liliana 09:11, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
The template always appears on a line by itself, so you can always remove the newline that follows it as well. —CodeCat 12:21, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
It doesn't always appear on a line by itself.​—msh210 (talk) 18:13, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Fair point, msh. -- Liliana 18:20, 22 November 2011 (UTC)
Could the line about 'adding link to form of template to make page count' in the AutoFormat code also go? Perhaps you've already done it. Mglovesfun (talk) 11:26, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
That is long commented out, after a certain someone started to whine about it. -- Liliana 14:36, 28 November 2011 (UTC)


Were these changes discussed anywhere? —RuakhTALK 18:00, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

If you think they need to be discussed anywhere, I'd be happy to open up a discussion on the GP. At least the first one should be uncontroversial, I added it in response to many IPs erroneously creating pages from the various archives search boxes (which always contain "prefix:" in some form). -- Liliana 18:04, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
I think they need to be discussed, yes. Even a small change to MediaWiki:Titleblacklist is a huge change to Wiktionary: it creates a whole class of entries (and non-mainspace pages) that will silently be prevented from existing, with a good chance that we'll never even know if someone tries to create a valid one. —RuakhTALK 18:12, 23 November 2011 (UTC)
Ok! See Wiktionary:Grease_pit#Title_blacklist. -- Liliana 18:17, 23 November 2011 (UTC)

"Verbal noun" header[edit]

Could you add this to the list of "standard headers" so Kassadbot will leave it alone? Below is my comment from the recent BP discussion which doesn't seem to be that interesting to people lol. (Forgive the typo(s), I'm leaving the quote intact as it was there.) — [Ric Laurent] — 14:44, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

Category:Arabic verbal nouns should be left alone. It's a separate grammatical category in Arabic grammar, where noun a noun is an اسم ‎(ism) and a verbal noun is a مصدر ‎(maṣdar). — [Ric Laurent] — 15:49, 27 November 2011 (UTC)
done -- Liliana 15:30, 28 November 2011 (UTC)
Vielen Dank — [Ric Laurent] — 15:41, 28 November 2011 (UTC)

start button[edit]

start button, I made some edits which you may be interested in seeing.Lucifer 11:51, 4 December 2011 (UTC)

Nouns and proper nouns[edit]

Hey, I've started a discussion in the Beer Parlor. I'd really like to know the community views on this. Any additional input would be great. Thanks. – Krun 13:55, 11 December 2011 (UTC)


Thanks for fixing! --Anatoli (обсудить) 02:23, 15 December 2011 (UTC)


Is Pinyin really an African language? —CodeCat 19:17, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes. The homography with the Chinese transcription standard is entirely coincidental. -- Liliana 19:20, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Replacing '''pagename''' with {{head|lang}}[edit]

Could the bot be modified so that it corrects any instances of a bolded headword, replacing them with {{head}} with the current language as the only parameter? This would be preferred because it adds the script template as well as the lang= XHTML attribute to the text. —CodeCat 15:07, 6 January 2012 (UTC)


I think it didn't work because it was inside <includeonly> tags. That would prevent the parser from evaluating anything inside it until the template is transcluded. —CodeCat 18:10, 21 January 2012 (UTC)

Proto and conlang language templates[edit]

Could you fix these templates as well? {{conl:lfn}} still contains a link. —CodeCat 15:20, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

The one you linked there was I think the only conlang template with a link, since none of the others do from a quick glance. The etymology templates work differently, they link to Wikipedia, should they be unlinked as well? -- Liliana 15:23, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
They're not used by {{language}}, so for now I don't think they need to be unlinked. I don't disagree with it though. —CodeCat 15:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
You also missed {{gez}}. There may still be others... —CodeCat 19:36, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
That's because that template is in the totally wrong category. It should be in Category:Language templates, but it isn't right now. -- Liliana 19:41, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Delinking languages in translation tables[edit]

Hi, I've just noticed that KassadBot delinks languages in translation tables [4]. I've no objection to that, but if the policy on this has changed, shouldn't this be reflected in Wiktionary:Translations/Wikification? --Thrissel 16:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

That page has been marked as historical, as you can see, as it is no longer relevant. -- Liliana 17:09, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
I see, overlooked that. Sorry, --Thrissel 17:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Though in the Beer Parlour, I didn't support this. I merely supported removing wikilinks from language templates, not having a bot de-link language names in translation tables. A wholly different thing. Just saying y'know. Mglovesfun (talk) 17:27, 22 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks, this showed me the way to the relevant debate. --Thrissel 17:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

{{language}} is almost orphaned[edit]

Most transclusions are now just {{context|language}} or {{jump|??|language}}. But there is one transclusion I'm not able to fix, Wiktionary:Per-browser preferences. It appears twice on that page but even subst:ing the template breaks it... —CodeCat 17:57, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok I was able to fix it I think. It should be orphaned now... —CodeCat 17:59, 22 January 2012 (UTC)

Citing letters[edit]

Was there a discussion about not citing letters? --Daniel 09:36, 24 January 2012 (UTC)

See Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/2011/January#Citations_of_letters -- Liliana 14:05, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for that link. But I was wondering where you got the idea that we don't cite letters, while removing a citation from u.
That discussion was interesting and potentially useful, but not conclusive; in fact, there are arguments in support of having citations of letters, including "I'd like to see earliest citation of J/j - middle ages from Spain I think". --Daniel 17:36, 24 January 2012 (UTC)
Historical citations might be interesting, but certainly not ones from a modern book. Everyone knows how the letter u is used today. -- Liliana 17:42, 24 January 2012 (UTC)


Sorry, could you please delete this page that I accidentally created? It has no content beyond accel stuff that I messed up. Thanks. Metaknowledge 03:30, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Where did you learn math?[edit]

The same place you learned manners.Lucifer 21:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Is Kassadbot running?[edit]

I haven't seen very many items appearing on the cleanup lists that I usually work: entries without inflection templates, translation table errors, structure errors. Have we eradicated all such error-making in the entries being edited? Are they no longer being sought? Is Kassadbot not running? DCDuring TALK 22:28, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

It loves to get stuck on {{list}}. I can restart it but who knows how long it'll run before it chokes again. -- Liliana 22:30, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
Can it ignore {{list}} completely? DCDuring TALK 22:54, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I can make it ignore pages containing the list template, but that would get kind of annoying if the template becomes widespread. -- Liliana 22:59, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I saw the RFDO discussion. Maybe it would be good to ignore such pages for now. DCDuring TALK 23:33, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I'll be sure to look into it. -- Liliana 23:37, 9 February 2012 (UTC)
I haven't seen much from Kassadbot lately. Is it running? If not, are there too many instances of {{list}} or is there some other problem? Can it be made to ignore {{list}}? I wish I could help. DCDuring TALK 23:50, 19 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh, there was a power outage, that's all. It should just need another nudge. -- Liliana 04:35, 20 April 2012 (UTC)
Hasn't made an edit for 24 hours. DCDuring TALK 11:59, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
So much for that. Looks like it can't save properly anymore since MediaWiki was updated. See Wiktionary:Grease_pit#just_fyi -- Liliana 13:21, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
Who can help fix this? DCDuring TALK 13:18, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
If this is indeed related to the problem with patrol-tokens that admins have seen while trying to use the patrolling enhancements, then the problem is probably intermittent. Liliana, can you try again? —RuakhTALK 13:59, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks both. DCDuring TALK 19:11, 25 April 2012 (UTC)
Kassadbot seems to be stuck on [[you]] (!!!). DCDuring TALK 21:47, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Yup. And as I've noticed, the saving bug still seems to be there, but the developers are already aware of it, now I just need to hope they'll get it fixed soon. -- Liliana 22:17, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
Stuck again since 7:15AM May 5. DCDuring TALK 17:35, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
I was going to fix a bug (see last section) but kind of got crowded with other things to do. Aaaaargh... -- Liliana 17:52, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
Not running since May 25. DCDuring TALK 15:06, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
Correct, but this is planned - I'm on vacation. Bear with me. -- Liliana 17:42, 28 May 2012 (UTC)
After a fairly long run, it stopped again some time around noon on June 15, 2012. DCDuring TALK 12:12, 16 June 2012 (UTC)
  • Happy to see it running again. DCDuring TALK 18:47, 17 June 2012 (UTC)
Stopped again around midnight on 6/20. DCDuring TALK 13:52, 21 June 2012 (UTC)
Stopped again c 15:30 7/6/2012. Not a bad run. DCDuring TALK 03:05, 8 July 2012 (UTC)
Good run, but last edit: 15:21, July 20, 2012 DCDuring TALK 17:31, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
A short run: last edit: 14:09, July 22, 2012. DCDuring TALK 17:05, 23 July 2012 (UTC)
It seems to be treading water or, possibly, to have drowned. DCDuring TALK 05:08, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
If it can't be waterproofed, maybe it should stay out of the water. DCDuring TALK 12:26, 17 September 2012 (UTC)


As you may have noticed, transcluding just /script results in something like this: User talk:Liliana-60/archive2/script. Using {{{1|Template:}}}/script is an option, but that lacks the special checks built in to {{Xyzy}} for if no script template exists. --Yair rand 15:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Or you could use something like {{{1|Template:DUMMY}}}/script, to redirect such cases to a dummy template. This would allow the use of Whatlinkshere to fix erroneous usage. -- Liliana 15:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC) (addendum: there should be no language templates without corresponding script template, should there? )
No, there shouldn't be, which is why {{Xyzy}} uses a convenient {{Eror}} template to make it simple to track down such cases. Using {{head}} without a {{{1}}} parameter is acceptable usage, so I don't see how causing those cases to link to Template:DUMMY/script would be helpful. --Yair rand 16:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
How about using {{Xyzy no langprefix}}, which I just created? -- Liliana 16:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
As a replacement for Xyzy? (I'm assuming that it's just the same as Xyzy without transcluding the langprefix.) That seems kind of unnecessary, and {{head}} technically is used in the exact situations where langprefix is required, I think. (Whatever happened to that proposal to get rid langprefixes entirely?) --Yair rand 16:21, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Oh no, there's {{inflx}} (which should be renamed to headx, I suppose) for cases where langscript is required. And about that proposal to get rid of langprefixes, it got nowhere, as nobody was brave enough to actually get something started. -- Liliana 16:25, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Why is {{{1}}} optional for {{head}}? It shouldn't be... —CodeCat 19:03, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
Why not? --Yair rand 20:11, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
All headword lines appear in a language section, so they should all have a language code. —CodeCat 20:17, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
For English entries that don't need the headline template to categorize or anything, having the language code added wouldn't do anything. --Yair rand 20:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)
It would still add the script template, along with the HTML lang= attribute. —CodeCat 02:36, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
If it's English it inherits lang= from the bodyContent anyway, and the Latn class doesn't do anything afaik. --Yair rand 02:44, 16 February 2012 (UTC)


Original Barnstar Hires.png Barnstar
For taking care of a huge amount of the bot work, building up the largest page on Wiktionary, improving Wiktionary's templates an enormous amount, improving policies, and of course adding and fixing loads of content, I award you this long overdue Barnstar. --Yair rand 01:57, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I thought we didn't do barnstars here. — [Ric Laurent] — 02:18, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
I thought the same, but {{User Barnstar}} passed RFD. *shrug* -- Liliana 02:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC) (addendum: but thanks anyway)
Congratulations! You deserve it! You managed to unblock yourself earlier today before I got worried enough to unblock you. Side note, I think it's bizarre that, even when a person is blocked, they can access enough controls to unblock themselves. - -sche (discuss) 02:20, 16 February 2012 (UTC)
We need more peeps like you! JamesjiaoTC 02:52, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

I suppose this wiki needs me[edit]

In my view, yes it does. Mglovesfun (talk) 14:08, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I agree. —RuakhTALK 14:21, 18 February 2012 (UTC)
Well, duh, yea! DCDuring TALK 15:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)


Liliana, ich sehe, Du bist die Expertin in Sachen ISO und Deutsch... can you tell me how I should add w:Low Prussian dialect words? {{infl|nds}} # {{context|Low Prussian}}? or is there a more specific code? Bleifrei (talk) 02:42, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

Was spezifischeres sehe ich jetzt nicht. Ich hab aber mal {{Low Prussian}} erstellt, nimm erstmal das, so wie du beschrieben hast. -- Liliana 02:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

How can I create a bot?[edit]

Hey! I'd like to create a bot at the Finnish Wiktionary, how's it possible and how can I put it into work? I'd like to create articles for German verb forms. -- Frous (talk) 23:15, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

You'll probably want to look at mw:Manual:Pywikipediabot, as well as the source code. If you have at the very least some basic knowledge of coding, it shouldn't be hard to adapt that for use in Finnish Wiktionary. -- Liliana 23:17, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Ok, thanks! :) I'll write here again, if that stuff turns out to be Chinese to me. -- Frous (talk) 23:19, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Ummmmmmm...I have very little understanding of coding, what does the step two mean? In other words, what do I do at that point? -- Frous (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
You'll probably want to skip that page, it isn't meant for use on Wikipedia/related projects. Move to mw:Manual:Pywikipediabot/Installation, then skip to mw:Manual:Pywikipediabot/, do not pass go, do not collect $200. -- Liliana 23:46, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, if this takes your time, but I still have no clue what I should do here? -- Frous (talk) 23:51, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
It kind of depends on what operating system you use. I cannot see that from here. -- Liliana 23:53, 3 March 2012 (UTC) (also, just if you're able too, mind checking out WT:IRC to make the discussion easier?)
Windows Vista. -- Frous (talk) 23:55, 3 March 2012 (UTC)
Eh, for Windows all you need to do is follow the link provided and download the Windows Installer and run it. It cannot really get any easier. (Just make sure you pick the 2.x version!) -- Liliana 23:56, 3 March 2012 (UTC)


Hallo Liliana... hab' wieder was bemerkt. Das Plautdietsche ({{pdt}}) ist schon in einigen Einträgen, wie [[ik]], als eine plattdeutsche (also {{nds}}) Mundart betrachtet worden. Dafür spricht, dass es eine plattdeutsche Mundart ist, und dass es kein Category:Plautdietsch language gibt. Dagegen spricht, dass Lekte, die ISO-Kürzel besitzen, normalerweise eigene ==L2-Headers== haben. Gibt's eine Policy? Should Template:pdt have its own ==Sections==? Bleifrei (talk) 05:49, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Es hat einen eigenen Code, also wird es erstmal als eigene Sprache betrachtet, solange nichts anderweitiges diskutiert wurde. -- Liliana 14:45, 4 March 2012 (UTC)
I'm glad to see that someone is working on our Low German entries! Similar to Plautdietsch, we have 32 Category:Dutch Low Saxon language entries. We could convert them to ==Low German== entries with "{{context|Dutch Low Saxon}}" ... or we could keep them (and Plautdietsch) separate, so as to reduce the number of dialects we are cramming under one header (==Low German==). Do either of you have a preference one way or the other? Either move will entail a change: creating Category:Plautdietsch language or deleting Category:Dutch Low Saxon language. - -sche (discuss) 20:15, 12 March 2012 (UTC)


Sorry. Anyway, I think one day for postponing it might be enough. Best regards, --BiblbroX дискашн 11:22, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

I prefer three days. Today's Sunday and not everyone might be there. -- Liliana 11:26, 11 March 2012 (UTC)


Hallo, what a surprise it is for you to have this ancient language 川#Goguryeo! Could you cite its historical source, esp., its sound nae like the modern Korean equivalent 川#Korean? --KYPark (talk) 04:07, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

I only copied info that was previously there, cf. [6]. I wouldn't know where to find historical sources. -- Liliana 04:11, 19 March 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. Fair enough. --KYPark (talk) 06:49, 19 March 2012 (UTC)

Great Andamanese languages[edit]

Does the Great Andamanese language family have a code? For now, I've just used Template:etyl:Great Andamanese in Template:akm/family and Template:apq/family to make Category:English terms derived from Aka-Bo and Category:English terms derived from A-Pucikwar work. - -sche (discuss) 19:59, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

It doesn't look like it. I've created {{etyl:qfa-adm}} to be used for Andamanese languages. -- Liliana 20:24, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Ok, thank you. I've modelled Template:etyl:qfa-fur for the Fur language family (not to be confused with the Fur language) on that. I'm creating language names (A-Pucikwar, etc), most of which derive from the languages named, thus I'm creating new etyl cats and it's necessitating the creation of family codes we've never had before. - -sche (discuss) 20:30, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
How do I tell when to use qfa, when to use ssa, and when to use some other string of letters? - -sche (discuss) 20:54, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Oh, depending on the level of the family? Hm, is there a guide to the codes somewhere? lol - -sche (discuss) 20:55, 2 April 2012 (UTC)
Appendix:ISO 639-5 -- Liliana 20:56, 2 April 2012 (UTC)

You're invited to Wikimedia events in June and July: bot users, script writers, & template and Gadget makers wanted[edit]

Liliana-60, I hope that you can come to the yearly Berlin hackathon, 1-3 June. Registration is now open. If you need financial assistance, or help with visa or hotel, then please register by May 1st and mention it in the registration form.

This is the premier event for the MediaWiki and Wikimedia technical community. We'll be hacking, designing, teaching, and socialising, primarily talking about ResourceLoader and Gadgets (extending functionality with JavaScript), the switch to Lua for templates, Wikidata, and Wikimedia Labs.

We want to bring 100-150 people together, including lots of people who have not attended such events before. User scripts, gadgets, API use, Toolserver, Wikimedia Labs, mobile, structured data, templates -- if you are into any of these things, we want you to come!

I also thought you might want to know about other upcoming events where you can learn more about MediaWiki customization and development, how to best use the web API for bots, and various upcoming features and changes. We'd love to have power users, bot maintainers and writers, and template makers at these events so we can all learn from each other and chat about what needs doing.

Check out the the developers' days preceding Wikimania in July in Washington, DC and our other events.

Best wishes! - Sumana Harihareswara, Wikimedia Foundation's Volunteer Development Coordinator. Please reply on my talk page at Sumanah (talk) 01:03, 9 April 2012 (UTC)


[7] Why did you change? Maro 17:38, 15 April 2012 (UTC)

There's a second language also called Waray {{wrz}}, and two languages can't share names. -- Liliana 17:39, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
I see. But you change it in only one place. We still have Category:Waray language, Category:Requests (Waray), Category:Translation requests (Waray) and many "Waray" uses Special:Search/Waray. Maro 18:03, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
Thanks for reminding me. Yes, those need to be changed. -- Liliana 18:08, 15 April 2012 (UTC)


Several of our entries currently speak of Yolngu in their etymologies or translations sections (e.g. yidaki, east), but I can't find a code for that language, and Ethnologue seems to consider Yolngu (Yolngu-Matha) a family. Should we create a code for Yolngu, or recategorise (how?) the Yolngu terms we currently have? - -sche (discuss) 04:04, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Good grief, I haven't ventured into the world of Australian languages before... it's basically one huge mess. The best way to deal with it, I think, would be to create a family code for Yolngu languages, and to use that in the etymology sections for now. -- Liliana 04:50, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
Ok. Do I infer from the fact that the Pama-Nyungan languages are {{etyl:aus-pam}} and the Yuin-Kuric languages are {{etyl:aus-yuk}} that I should name the Yolngu languages' template {{etyl:aus-yol}}? - -sche (discuss) 05:35, 18 April 2012 (UTC)
I'd say yes. -- Liliana 11:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)


We have a Template:qfa-cka-pro/family, Template:qfa-cka/family, Template:qfa-yen-pro/family and Template:qfa-yen/family, but no Template:qfa-cka etc. Does that just mean we're missing the language templates (Template:qfa-cka etc), or were Template:qfa-cka-pro/family et al supposed to be called Template:etyl:qfa-cka/family? The other "qfa" pages are prefixed by "etyl:". I'm writing a documentation page for our entire code-naming-system, and finding these things as I go along. - -sche (discuss) 22:33, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Actually, these are old remnants which should've been deleted long ago. They're no longer used (instead, it's {{proto:qfa-yen-pro/family}}, etc., and families don't get /family subtemplates at all). -- Liliana 22:48, 18 April 2012 (UTC)

Category:Requests for autoformat[edit]

Bot is working but is ignoring a small number of entries in this category, whilst treating other ones. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:57, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

That's due to the bot ignoring all pages which use {{list}}, so as to not kill itself. -- Liliana 18:33, 26 April 2012 (UTC)


I think I named this correctly, for use by {{aad/family}}: "iwm" for "Iwam", "paa" for Papuan. Papuan isn't a genetic family, but it's a family-of-convenience we also use for paa-msk, paa-etf and paa-kag. Iwam isn't a top-level division of Papuan, but the family it is a division of, Sepik, is only hypothetical. So, did I get it right? I am determined to learn our naming system. - -sche (discuss) 21:26, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

It seems okay to me, at least. -- Liliana 21:45, 26 April 2012 (UTC)

{{kv}}, {{kpv}}[edit]

Should we merge all uses of kpv into kv? Nadando (talk) 03:44, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

Yes, yes we should. I'm not sure why it isn't done already. -- Liliana 03:49, 2 May 2012 (UTC)

KassadBot adding : after Serbo in translations[edit]

Hi. The bot is incorrectly adding ": " directly after "Serbo" in "Serbo-Croatian" and that yields "Serbo: -Croatian". See for example: this diff or this diff! I think it parses "Serbo" as a language of its own, but you will know better. Just wanted to let you know so you make the necessary adjustments to bot's code. I say necessary since I believe they are - editors might make the same mistakes as I did and omit the ":" after language names such as "Serbo-Croatian" is. Cheers, --BiblbroX дискашн 10:35, 5 May 2012 (UTC)

fixed! -- Liliana 17:59, 7 May 2012 (UTC)
sumpor, ty. --BiblbroX дискашн 00:08, 9 May 2012 (UTC)

Mutation header[edit]

Hi Liliana, KassadBot is putting the Mutation header at L4 (e.g. here, but it makes more sense at L3, since the mutations apply to all parts of speech. If we put them at L4, we'd have to put them separately under Verb and Noun, which would be redundant since they're identical. Can we promote Mutation to L3? —Angr 21:18, 13 May 2012 (UTC)

You'd have to change User:AutoFormat/Headers, which has Mutation as a L4 only header right now. -- Liliana 21:22, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Done. Thanks for your help! —Angr 21:30, 13 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi, it's still changing the Mutation header to L4 whenever an entry has two etymologies. But as far as I can tell, it doesn't do that for other spelling-dependent headings like Anagrams. At User:AutoFormat/Headers the settings for Anagrams and Mutation look the same to me, but the bot thinks Mutation depends on etymology but knows that Anagrams don't. Why? —Angr 07:34, 5 June 2012 (UTC)
Mmmmh. This seems to be a stupid hardcoded check. Let me know if it still does that. -- Liliana 08:05, 5 June 2012 (UTC)

North Caucasian languages[edit]

You are good with minor languages. Could you find and add the actual spellings to աք ‎(akʿ)? --Vahag (talk) 16:09, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

I managed to find two. Not sure about the third, that one I couldn't find. -- Liliana 16:22, 20 May 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. --Vahag (talk) 20:33, 20 May 2012 (UTC)

Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2012-05/User:Connel MacKenzie for de-sysop and de-checkuser[edit]

Could you clarify you intent there, there, please?​—msh210 (talk) 06:46, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Thanks.​—msh210 (talk) 15:44, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

Strange edit to man date[edit]

Hi. What was the purpose of this edit? It seems to make the wikitext needlessly more difficult to read, but has no effect on the rendered HTML. --MZMcBride (talk) 02:44, 31 May 2012 (UTC)

Spaces are always dropped from headings, as mandated by WT:ELE. -- Liliana 06:50, 31 May 2012 (UTC)


Are you sure it's katakana? The only example I've ever seen of this is in the first sentence of its article on 'pedia, where its name is clearly written in hiragana. Do you have evidence otherwise? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:09, 6 June 2012 (UTC)

The only entry we have on it is written in Katakana (ツブリ). -- Liliana 19:11, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I can't find much info on it. Is there a way to put both, just in case? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:15, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I think the code Hrkt works. -- Liliana 19:21, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
Well, I'll put that unless I see evidence to the contrary or the opinion of someone who knows about Yaeyama. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:26, 6 June 2012 (UTC)
I have no direct knowledge of the Yaeyama dialect, but ツブリ (tsuburi) is also an alternate word for head in regular Japanese, generally spelled in kanji and つぶり in hiragana, deriving from つぶ ‎(tsubu), which is both a noun meaning "small round thing" and a verb meaning, variously, "to be round, to become round, to go bald (i.e. for one's head to become smooth and round)".
I'll add the relevant entries tomorrow, time allowing -- it grows late here where I sit. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 05:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I believe it is common for other Japonic languages not to use kanji, even where appropriate in ja. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:38, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
Interesting. I did some digging around, and it looks like the JA WP article on the Ryūkyūan languages at w:ja:琉球語 has this to say at w:ja:琉球語#.E6.96.87.E5.AD.97:


Modern Ryūkyūan (Ryūkyū dialects) are often written using the Japanese mixed kanji / kana notation, and there is no established orthography for Ryūkyūan (Ryūkyū dialects). Words that diverge substantially from Japanese notation are sometimes written using kanji of the corresponding meaning.

That last sentence describes how kanji came to be used for Japanese in the first place, which is how come you sometimes have a "single" word as written, but that actually has several different readings, all with independent etymologies and connotations. (See 食物 for one fun example.)
I'll do some more digging tomorrow. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 06:55, 7 June 2012 (UTC)
I stand corrected, for the most part. In any case, I just realized that 'Hrkt' rdirects to 'Jpan' anyway, so rys/script is fine. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:36, 7 June 2012 (UTC)


I noticed that KassadBot has rfc-header marked a bunch of words I created as a newbie, because I used the header 'Derivatives' instead of 'Derived terms'. So I don't have to fix these manually, can you get your bot to replace all 'Derivatives' headers with 'Derived terms', and remove the rfc-header line that it inserted below the headers? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:43, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm a bit puzzled as to why it tags them - User:AutoFormat/Headers specifically lists a bunch of common mistakes for "derived terms", and the bot should catch them, but for some reason, it doesn't. Strange. -- Liliana 19:14, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
I have no idea why. Anyway, this will make Category:Rapa Nui terms needing attention and a couple others of that ilk a lot easier to weed through. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:19, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Mmm... but I see that "Derivatives" was only added to the list in May, and all these were tagged before... and since the bot has no reason to come back to check old entries, they kind of linger there. -- Liliana 19:32, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Can you track them down easily, or should I feed you the categories to make the changes in? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:03, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Well... as of now I have no way to direct it to something... it only ever checks Recent Changes. Maybe it would help to temporarily add the Category:Requests for autoformat category to {{rfc-header}}, so it goes through all of them? -- Liliana 20:12, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
That sounds like a good idea. Now that I've culled a bunch, there probably aren't more than a dozen such entries anyway, but I want a bot to do it just so I don't miss any. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:26, 11 June 2012 (UTC)
Just notifying you, I'm going to add the requests for autoformat category as you suggested. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 15:42, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Thank you! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:38, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

KassadBot II[edit]

I've just noticed your bot has added {{defn}} to a number of word form pages in Latvian (e.g., ausi, ausīm). Since these are word forms, not lemmas / entries, I think there is no need for a definition: the main entry (to which the word form page is linked) provides the definition. If you agree, then would you mind removing {{defn}} from these pages? Thanks in advance! --Pereru (talk) 08:32, 13 June 2012 (UTC)

They still need to be formatted like all other entries - i. e. use the hash, not the asterisk. If you use the asterisk, the bot can't recognize the definition and will think there is none. -- Liliana 11:19, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
Oh, OK -- I hadn't noticed that. It's done. Thanks! --Pereru (talk) 15:03, 13 June 2012 (UTC)
@ Pereru, this is what I mentioned on your talk page. Hopefully now you see why I said it. Mglovesfun (talk) 10:35, 15 June 2012 (UTC)


Why not have this? It is useful for English etymologies, distinguishing a separate path for derivations. It is not identical to Quebec French, either, AFAICT. DCDuring TALK 16:28, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

You mean {{fr}}. Mglovesfun (talk) 16:29, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Indeed, it is redundant to {{fr}} in every way. -- Liliana 16:48, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
See Canadian French#External links. DCDuring TALK 17:00, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Canadian French has no ISO code. It does, however, have an etymology code, so you can use {{etyl|fr-CA}} to designate Canadian French derivations. -- Liliana 17:06, 22 June 2012 (UTC)
Excellent. Thanks. DCDuring TALK 17:31, 22 June 2012 (UTC)

Hypothetic Inflexions[edit]

Hullo. You said that un‐attestable Inflexions are permitted for living Languages if, for Example, at least the Infinitive is attestable, yes ? --Æ&Œ (talk) 00:15, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't say that's a hard-and-fast rule, as there are some verbs in Dutch that don't seem to be used apart from the infinitive and maybe the participles. I would say that having a finite verb form would normally imply that the lemma form (which may be the infinitive) exists, though. —CodeCat 01:20, 30 June 2012 (UTC)

Adding lang=xx to IPA[edit]

Would you please tell the bot to add "|lang=..." for other languages too?[8] (fa, etc.) --Z 06:34, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the problem here is that Persian is inexplicably missing from User:AutoFormat/Languages, causing the bot to fail to resolve the language name. -- Liliana 11:16, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok thanks, will request for edit. --Z 12:07, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
Do you have permission to edit the page? If so, would you please add fa? And possibly a stupid question: where is "WP:AN" of this project and how should I request for edit here? --Z 12:40, 12 July 2012 (UTC)
There isn't really any special site for this, but you can ask on WT:BP and someone will then do it. For now, I've fixed it. -- Liliana 16:41, 12 July 2012 (UTC)

Malayic languages?[edit]

This is in re: to the discussion on CodeCat's talk. So apparently, Proto-Malayic, when it has a category, should go in Malayic languages. But just to clarify, where should Malayic languages go? Should that category be a child of Malayo-Polynesian languages? 50 Xylophone Players talk 13:06, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

My sources say: Austronesian -> Malayo-Polynesian -> Sunda-Sulawesi -> Malayo-Sumbawan -> Malayic. The Malayo-Sumbawan node is missing as of yet, and would have to be created. -- Liliana 14:38, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Okay thanks, with that information, I will try to work on created these categories. :) 50 Xylophone Players talk 16:19, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh, another question: I don't suppose there's an established code for Malayo-Sumbawan is there? 50 Xylophone Players talk 16:33, 11 July 2012 (UTC)
Nope. It should probably be called {{etyl:poz-msa}}. -- Liliana 17:26, 11 July 2012 (UTC)

Q about Kassadbot & level headers for JA entries[edit]

I ran across Kassadbot's change here.

JA entries pose a bit of an organizational problem, as one lemma may have multiple etymologies and multiple readings and POSes. Various items that are usually L4 or lower according to WT:ELE, and would thus hierarchically only apply to the parent header, may actually apply to the whole entry. 今日, for instance, has three distinct etymologies, each with specific and readings. However, all three etyms have the same meaning, and the items listed under Coordinate terms apply equally to all three etyms.

The simplest way to indicate this would be to just have Coordinate terms at L3, on par with all of the etyms. However, this breaches WT:ELE and thus Kassadbot (and possibly other bots too) will demote the header (producing an entry that gives incorrect information) or mark the entry as needing attention.

Do you know of an elegant way to make this work? Should I bring this up at WT:GP or WT:BEER regarding making a change to WT:ELE? Or, since this seems to only affect JA (AFAIK), does this just require a tweak to Kassadbot?

-- TIA, Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 17:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

This seems very much like an issue that's worth discussing on the BP. -- Liliana 17:12, 13 July 2012 (UTC)
Thanks! I'll bring it up there. -- Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:41, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Some other templates you may be interested in[edit]

(all pages are locked) --Z 22:04, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

Template:ckb/script should probably be ku-Arab, as it is a Kurdish variety. About pnb-Arab: it seems to exist, but it has no fonts defined, making it utterly useless. I'm not sure if ur-Arab is appropriate here. I'll do all the others. -- Liliana 22:07, 13 July 2012 (UTC)

New language family insertion again[edit]

Okay, so I have come across another category on WantedCats that I remember well from the past when I was nowhere near bold enough to dabble in language category creation: Category:Kiput terms derived from Proto-North Sarawak. So, according to WP, we should have North Sarawakan as a subfamily of North Bornean? You were a great help with the creation of Malayic categories and such so I just wanted to ask if you could give a full layout (not including irrelevant individual languages of course) of the North Bornean branch so that I can fill any missing gaps. Thanks in advance. :) User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 13:29, 15 July 2012 (UTC) P.S. Please suggest appropriate template codes for anything that is missing too, thanks.

My list indicates two subbranches, North Sarawakan (suggested {{etyl:poz-swa}}) and Sabahan (suggested {{etyl:poz-san}}. I don't see anything else that needs to be created in that branch. (I updated the list to reflect this.) -- Liliana 14:01, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I shall get working on these a little bit later. User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 14:36, 15 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done :) Category:North Bornean languages is now completely spilt into the North Sarawakan and and Sabahan subfamilies. User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 16:03, 15 July 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I got another case to sort out I believe. I was just about to create Category:Mvuba language, but I'd like some family confirmation and suggestions for any required etyl codes. So I guess the structure should be like this?

*These need etyl codes I believe.

So, Is that correct? Or perhaps should different names be used? User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 14:31, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

Do we need to go down that far? Central Sudanic is okay (and it already has a code, {{etyl:csu}}), but I'm not sure there is a need to differentiate between Western and Eastern, and even if the need arises later we can move the categories when that happens. -- Liliana 15:27, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok, I'll just make Central Sudanic and leave the subdivisions uncreated. User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 20:05, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

KassadBot's unlinking[edit]

Does KassadBot unlink indented language names in translations? I've noticed some trans tables that have no language-name links except in indented items. For example:

If it doesn't, would you change the code so that it does? Ultimateria (talk) 01:20, 16 July 2012 (UTC)

I noticed it seems to ignore indented lines. Unsure what to do about it *headscratch* -- Liliana 04:34, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
It could be done by regex (that is, by MglovesfunBot) if I/we can write a regex that won't interfere with anything outside of translation sections. I'd also need an unwikified list of entries that need treating. I seem to think I did something similar before for entries that use {{list}} and I haven't found any errors yet. Mglovesfun (talk) 15:03, 16 July 2012 (UTC)
\n\{\{trans-top(\|.*)?}}\n((\*.*)\n)*({{trans-mid(?:\|.*)?}}\n)?((\*.*)\n)*{{trans-bottom(\|.*)?}}\n would seem to be a translation table in a context in which . isn't a newline. (Adjust for template redirects, I guess.)​—msh210 (talk) 22:08, 22 July 2012 (UTC)

New job for KassadBot[edit]

A bunch of entries (nearing 200) now use {{LDL}}, but many of them don't use the first (and only) parameter, which specifies a language code. Although this is not necessary, I think it would be much improved if they all did. So: can KassadBot extract the name of the language from the L2 header and use it to add the corresponding langcode as the first parameter to {{LDL}}? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:01, 21 July 2012 (UTC)

I tried it. It doesn't work. :( -- Liliana 18:07, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
That's a pity. Ah well. One more thing: is/are KassadBot/you able to specifically categorise every page into category X that is already in a certain category Y and ends in the substring foo? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:39, 22 July 2012 (UTC)
Did you notice this question yet? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:36, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes yes, I did, I just forgot to answer. I'm not quite sure what you mean - can you give a concrete example? -- Liliana 16:05, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
All Tok Pisin transitive verbs end in -im. Can you add Category:Tok Pisin transitive verbs to the page of every entry that's already in Category:Tok Pisin verbs and ends in -im? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 16:59, 26 July 2012 (UTC)
...I suppose I can just do that manually, we don't seem to have that many verbs yet. -- Liliana 09:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
If it gets to that point... there's got to be a faster way for 100+ pages. I'll see what I can do. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 14:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmong vs. Hmong Daw[edit]

I saw that some time ago you nominated the Hmong Daw lang cat for RFDO. However, I'm not sure if this is ok due to my lack of knowledge of the languages...we have 2 different codes for Hmong and Hmong Daw, per WP. WP says Hmong Daw is a dialect but should we be including it as such or as a separate L2? User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 23:20, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

{{hmn}} is a macrolanguage that encompasses many dialects, including Hmong Daw, so it's completely redundant. -- Liliana 23:35, 25 July 2012 (UTC)

Language code template help required again[edit]

Hey again, these are some other problems I've come across while trawling through WantedCategories:

  1. I was going to create Category:Ritarungo language but it seems that while we have a category for its family, we don't seem to have a code. Could you suggest one?
  2. We have one English etymology listing Slavey as the source language. We have {{den}} for Slavey but...we already have a category for South Slavey. So does that mean we shouldn't really have an individual category for Slavey (no north-south differentiation)? Or is the opposite true? User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 02:28, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
  3. Another one: I was going to create Category:Kxoe language but while I can see that it fits into Category:Khoisan languages I think we are missing subfamilies from that? Kwadi-Khoe perhaps for one? More to come perhaps as I trawl through more of the WantedCategories. User:PalkiaX50 talk to meh 02:38, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
  1. Ritarungo is {{rit}}.
  2. I'm not entirely sure on whether there is a need to differeniate between the Slavey dialects. Stephen might know, try asking him.
  3. We're currently treating Khoisan as kind of a collective group, while it isn't anywhere close to linguistic it's very convenient this way to save us from having to create countless language family categories. -- Liliana 13:35, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
  1. I can see that, I mean we don't seem to have a code for the Yolngu Matha family.
  2. Ok thanks, I'll ask for his input.
  3. Ok, I'll just put it in Khoisan then.
Also, I have another question, are there subbranches of Category:Eastern Sudanic languages we should add, per w:Eastern Nilotic languages? I ask mainly since we have a Maasai entry that is "wanting" Category:Maasai terms derived from Proto-Ongamo-Maa and Category:Maasai terms derived from Proto-Lotuko-Maa. User:PalkiaX50 talk to meh 13:41, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Another one yet again (there's no major rush if you're too busy with something else though of course): Where does Category:Proto-Inupik language belong? Should we actually have Category:Inupik languages somewhere? User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 16:20, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Oh, I failed to realize the family has no code. Hmm. I think {{etyl:aus-you}} would be best.
Hmm, Maasai sure has some strange etymologies. It shows one of the problems with the whole etymology category system; there's no end to them. Unsure what to do.
Proto-Inupik? English Wikipedia doesn't know that language. What's it supposed to be? -- Liliana 18:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Inupik is w:Inupiat language. Looking at the Eastern Nilotic languages article I linked from WP though, do you think we should add in some of those subdivisions? Please suggest codes too of course if you think so. User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 18:25, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Slavey includes two main dialects, North Slavey (scs) and South Slavey (xsl). Slavey is like German, where there is a dialect continuum. North Slavey is made up of three main subdialects: K’áshogot’ıne (Hare), Sahtúgot’ıne (Bear Lake), and Shıhgot’ıne (Mountain). South Slavey also includes the subdialects known as Northern Alberta Slavey and Fort Nelson Slavey. They are all very closely related to Dogrib.
The difference in the Slavey dialects is in how five of the old Proto-Athabaskan consonants have come to be realized. The different dialects pronounce these sounds differently and each dialect has a different number and collection of consonants; South Slavey has one less vowel (no /ə/). This means that the dialects are very close to one another and they are not different languages, but each dialect spells words differently. However, I believe that is a Standardized Slavey (like High German), which can be studied, taught, and used to communicate with speakers of any of the dialects. —Stephen (Talk) 19:58, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Ok then, so going by that, would it be best to just have the one Slavey category then, and indicate dialectal peculiarities within the one L2, similar to but indeed not quite the same as Serbo-Croatian? Or should they have separate L2's? User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 20:05, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
It’s a difficult question. My feeling is that, at the moment, since we don’t have anyone who can speak Slavey to create entries and tables, we probably won’t be getting very many entries for Slavey, and those we get will probably come from printed sources that may not identify the dialect. So I think we should treat it as a single language for the moment, like we do with American and British English. In the future, if someone comes who wants to do a lot of work in Slavey, then he might want to separate it into North and South ... or he might not. —Stephen (Talk) 20:26, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────'re kidding me right? Surely this has a better name...or is inappropriate? User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 21:14, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

x( Sorry, it's perfectly correct. -- Liliana 21:49, 28 July 2012 (UTC)
Hehe...fair enough, what would be a good code for it then? Also, are "Bantoid" and "Bantu" languages the same or what...? I'm getting confused about that. :/ If not, should we actually have a Bantoid category?
Finally, given that Inupik=Inupiat (see link above), do you know what should be done with Proto-Inupik?User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 13:45, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Bantoid is definitely missing and would have to be created. As for that Proto-Inupik, I still don't know what it is, and the present-day language of the same name isn't really helpful in determining that. Google Books returns one single hit for this language. Now if you could rfv etymologies... -- Liliana 16:37, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Well, there is the etymology scriptorium if that would be any what would be an appropriate code for Bantoid? and Proto-Central New South Wales? Oh and what are your thoughts on adding or not adding divisions listed at the Eastern Nilotic languages WP page linked above? User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 18:28, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Hmm... {{nic-bod}} and {{aus-cww}} look okay. As for Eastern Nilotic, my opinion is that it's unnecessary. -- Liliana 21:42, 29 July 2012 (UTC)
Done, {{etyl:nic-bod}}, {{etyl:aus-cww}} and {{proto:aus-cww-pro}} have been created. Really though you think all the stuff from Eastern Nilotic languages is unnecessary category-wise here? I mean, I wasn't saying we should make a category and hence a code for Eastern Nilotic itself. I was just wondering if any of the subdivisions should be added to Category:Eastern Sudanic languages... because I notice that then we would perhaps have Category:Lotuko-Maa languages and Category:Ongamo-Maa languages within it, which would cover the strange Maasai etymology I mentioned. User: PalkiaX50 talk to meh 16:25, 30 July 2012 (UTC)
Yes, that is what I meant. -- Liliana 18:04, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

KassadBot stopped again[edit]

Um... do you want us to start a new thread every time this happens, or just do nothing? Mglovesfun (talk) 10:47, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

A ping on IRC might be the most effective way. -- Liliana 12:20, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Ping! Mglovesfun (talk) 21:44, 23 August 2012 (UTC)
Ping! (too lazy to go on IRC, sorry). Mglovesfun (talk) 20:22, 26 August 2012 (UTC)
Just assume that the bot is never working, that will save us from having to ping you. Mglovesfun (talk) 20:51, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
lol -- Liliana 04:02, 29 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm guessing KassadBot unlinks/unlinked terms that show(ed) up in Recentchanges because they've been edited, but will it get to black woodpecker, peregrine falcon and American bison at some point, or not? I don't mind if it doesn't, I'm just curious. - -sche (discuss) 22:10, 30 August 2012 (UTC)
Stopped 7th of September on water... again. Maybe someone should create WaterBot (talkcontribs) or something purely for formatting water. I wasn't even the person to first suggest this! Mglovesfun (talk) 13:00, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
How much formatting can water repeatedly, continually need?! Why not just tell the bot to skip any pagename that exactly matches the string "water"? - -sche (discuss) 18:14, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Every time someone adds a translation, the tables have to be rebalanced... -- Liliana 18:23, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
Does it at least successfully rebalance [[water]] before it hangs or is it still working on [[water]] as we speak? DCDuring TALK 18:44, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
It does rebalance the page properly, but then somehow fails to continue. -- Liliana 18:56, 14 September 2012 (UTC)
I say it should skip water and we can just balance water manually. - -sche (discuss) 19:02, 14 September 2012 (UTC)

Is specifying sc= a good thing?[edit]

I noticed the edit summary to your recent edit of [[water]].

How does specifying sc= in, say {{term}} (eg, lang=grc|sc=polytonic) improve the user experience over not specifying it? Does it speed up preparing the HTML? Does this also apply to ordinary Latin script or is Latin script a default for many languages that does not require lookup? DCDuring TALK 19:14, 20 August 2012 (UTC)

It saves one iteration of going through all of {{langprefix}}, thus it speeds up the page's loading process (if only marginally, but these savings can pile up!). It is not normally needed, but water is not a normal page. I have no idea if specifying sc=Latn directly has the same benefits. -- Liliana 19:30, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Thanks. I sure hope that there is some default assumption of Latin script, as it still must be the most common by far. DCDuring TALK 19:52, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
To satisfy my curiosity (and probably yours too), I performed a small test. Surprisingly, Latin is not assumed by default, meaning it iterates through the langprefix template for every language - even English. The difference, for only the English etymology section, is:
Before After

Preprocessor node count: 189161/1000000
Post-expand include size: 524032/2048000 bytes
Template argument size: 161662/2048000 bytes
Highest expansion depth: 24/40
Expensive parser function count: 57/500

Preprocessor node count: 187179/1000000
Post-expand include size: 522032/2048000 bytes
Template argument size: 160376/2048000 bytes
Highest expansion depth: 24/40
Expensive parser function count: 57/500

My speculation is that larger savings can be achieved by optimizing other sections like this - most notably the derived terms section. -- Liliana 20:00, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not sure what you are comparing in the table. Is that processing an entire page, without specifying sc= ("before") vs with sc= ("after")?
Is it not true that {{t}} and {{l}} also use {{Xyzy}}?
For all English words without a translation table, but with an etymology section, it would seem feasible to completely eliminate the need to call {{Xyzy}}, by specifying "sc" for the few words using non-Latin script that are specified using {{term}} (or {{l}} ?) and making sure that lang=en (or blank) defaulted to Latin script.
Eliminating calls to a template also means that changing it is a bit less consequential. Our push to standardize, however desirable it may be in total, certainly increases our dependence on whatever feature of the MW software our templates depend on and on the technology adepts who grasp it all. DCDuring TALK 20:38, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Yes, these are page statistics, before and after. {{t}} and {{l}} both also iterate through Xyzy. The latter always does this no matter what, it seems, but I've asked Ruakh about it: User_talk:Ruakh#.7B.7Bl.7D.7D. Unfortunately, like always, he is in a complete disagreement with me. -- Liliana 20:41, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
Wouldn't it be simpler to simply eliminate, throughout en.wikt, every instance of {{l}} for which lang=en or is blank? DCDuring TALK 20:44, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
But then you would lose the link to the English section. This is annoying especially for users who use the tabbed languages feature. -- Liliana 20:46, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
But why doesn't that default to the English section, too. Defaults can be so economical when one kind of thing is much more common than any of the others. DCDuring TALK 21:40, 20 August 2012 (UTC)
This on the other hand might be worth discussing further, especially since it would solve a lot of problems relating to links, like us having plain links in definitions. -- Liliana 04:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I don't really understand how writing {{#if:{{{1|}}}|{{{1}}}|en}} instead of {{{1}}} inside {{l}} would be an improvement at all... —CodeCat 10:06, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
Isn't something that executes within a template very quick? How much burden is the extra length of code? Speeding up the rendering of the HTML for the longest entries would seem to be paramount. ([[water]] can serve as our miner's canary in this regard.) Most of the longest entries have very large English sections, which are being threatened with the burden of unlimited use of {{l}}. The fact coincides with the fact that English is the most common lang= parameter specified, often by lack of specification, in the templates that require script information. Thus there is some real potential benefit to exploiting the idea of a simple default assumption.
It seems to me that, if you want whatever advantages some users might get from tabbed languages and need {{l}} for that purpose or other purposes, it would behoove you to minimize the burden that {{l}} seems to impose. The baroque template system that we have for language codes and script codes requires an enormous number of templates (a number apparently beyond the normal assumptions about maintainability in the Mediawiki software) and an even more enormous number of instances of template use in entries. Some consideration of efficiency (and maintainability once those who have perpetrated the system have moved on) seems in order.
Frankly, if the "all languages" part of our slogan proves to be a bridge too far or is rendered obsolete by other developments in software, I hope that at least Wiktionary's coverage of the English language can survive in the new world to play a useful role for the broad population of human users interested in English or most comfortable in English. Limiting the dependence of the English portion of Wiktionary on a baroque template structure seems like a wise precaution. DCDuring TALK 11:07, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
You could propose deleting {{en}} if that is what you think is best... —CodeCat 12:16, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I had been thinking more of a JS which appends #English to all links which do not link to any particular section in the main namespace. -- Liliana 14:31, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
I'm not really happy with relying on JS so much. It doesn't work for everyone, and it's slow to run the scripts on the page. —CodeCat 14:57, 21 August 2012 (UTC)
If you have a better idea, go ahead. -- Liliana 15:07, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Aspect as an L3 header[edit]

KassadBot has been tagging ===Aspect==== with {{rfc-header}}, but it's a legitimate POS, at least in Tahitian. Can you fix it so that it doesn't do that (preferably only giving the exception to Tahitian)? Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:09, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Eh... has ===Aspect=== been discussed in the BP or TR? If not, it should be. Hebrew also could have had a number of other headers, but it was decided (in very old discussions) to "equate" them to headers we already used. Of course, some of the editors who were most opposed to headers that were technically more accurate but less intelligble to commoners haven't edited in years (even though one still has checkuser rights...hmm, I need to start a BP discussion about that), so the community may be more receptive to adding parts of speech, now. - -sche (discuss) 02:25, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
...but, having looked at a few ===Aspect===s, it seems to me they should just be ===Particle===s, or perhaps ===Prefix===es or ===Suffix===es. - -sche (discuss) 02:28, 28 August 2012 (UTC)
Well, they're obviously not prefixes or suffixes (those have to be connected to the main word). Particle might be the best fit after all. I still think that aspect is the most accurate, but we don't have any real Tahitian speakers to weigh in (I can write a little, but only with a dictionary :). --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:52, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

German R[edit]

Hi Liliana! I wondered if you had an opinion regarding the transcription of "R" in German: Wiktionary_talk:About_German#R. - -sche (discuss) 22:24, 29 August 2012 (UTC)


Could you update your bot to treat Template:only-in like Template:only in (i.e. not tag either with nolanguage)? Alternatively/supplementarily, perhaps the two templates should be merged. - -sche (discuss) 21:07, 2 September 2012 (UTC)

Yes, they should - I have no idea why we have both. -- Liliana 21:10, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
I created {{only-in}} because {{only in}} counterintuitively requires the parameter to be a second template. I'd favour keeping the simplified {{only-in}} even if we do so by merging it to {{only in}}'s name. - -sche (discuss) 21:26, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
Conrad was trying to discourage reference to other wiktionary namespaces, wikiprojects, or external links. Can we do so in a less counter-intuitive way and also without building yet another potentially widespread templates-calling-other-templates complex? I know text-parsing functions are considered too expensive. DCDuring TALK 21:51, 2 September 2012 (UTC)
{{only in}} is madness. Mglovesfun (talk) 08:55, 3 September 2012 (UTC)
{{only-in}} mostly works with {{in appendix}} and {{in Wikipedia}}. It displays
Some information about this term is available at
  • The English Wikipedia has information at English unattested phobias...
which could probably be addressed by altering {{in appendix}} and {{in Wikipedia}}, making replacement of {{only in}} with {{only-in}}'s content possible. Let's move to WT:RFM. - -sche (discuss) 17:36, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

New proto's[edit]

I need to create proto templates for Proto-Nuclear-Polynesian (PNP) and Proto-Eastern-Polynesian (PEP), but I don't know if there's a naming tradition that I ought to follow or a reason that they haven't been created. Do you know? --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 01:21, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Based on WT:LANGCODES and WT:Families, I think: if "Nuclear Polynesian" or "Eastern Polynesian" already has a code (is Eastern Polynesian the same as Eastern Malayo-Polynesian?), the format is Template:proto:xxx-pro (like Template:proto:gem-pro), where "xxx" is the pre-existing code. If one or both of the non-proto languages/families does not already have a code, then for the proto language, you use Template:proto:qfa-xxx-pro (like [[Template:proto:qfa-cka-pro]]), where "xxx" is something distinctive — you might use "pnp" and "pep" after checking for naming conflicts. But wait and see if Liliana corrects me... - -sche (discuss) 02:45, 5 September 2012 (UTC)
No, it's not the same as Proto-Eastern-Malayo-Polynesian. And I think that divisions lower than family level usually get two hyphens in their codes. I was imagining {{proto:poz-pnp-pro}} and {{proto:poz-pep-pro}} (compare Proto-Polynesian, {{proto:poz-pol-pro}}). qfa is ridiculous in a context where we know the ancestors, I think. --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:20, 5 September 2012 (UTC)


Please see Talk:Srebrenica. -- 12:25, 9 September 2012 (UTC)


Any advice on this? —RuakhTALK 13:20, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Check my recent edit; is that okay? -- Liliana 14:02, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Ugh, that looks terrible. :-P   Is there really no better way? —RuakhTALK 14:27, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
You could use ref tags, but that looks even worse. -- Liliana 14:29, 23 September 2012 (UTC)
Yeah . . . I've had another idea, which I think maybe looks better. (And part of the ugliness before, I now realize, is that due a recent MediaWiki software change, the notes were now center-aligned, where before they had been left-aligned. I just had to modify the template to fix that aspect of it.) Thanks for your help. —RuakhTALK 14:32, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

special colon[edit]

I seem to recall you mentioning in the Grease Pit or Beer Parlour a while back that Unicode had encoded a special colon for languages which use the colon as a letter, and that this colon worked in entry titles, unlike ":". Is that letter-colon U+A789 "꞉"? If so, I'll update saguaro. - -sche (discuss) 15:50, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

Without checking, I think yes, this one's it. -- Liliana 16:04, 23 September 2012 (UTC)

"Mandarin terms needing attention" for Goguryeo terms without inflection lines.[edit]皆尸?diff=18275599RuakhTALK 19:08, 24 September 2012 (UTC)

Mandarin terms needing attention is hardcoded for all Han characters which are not identified as Japanese or Korean. I guess that needs to be changed. On top of that, User:AutoFormat/Languages is missing Goguryeo, which is why the bot failed to retrieve the language code. -- Liliana 19:41, 24 September 2012 (UTC)


This person created some "Zazaki" content last week, using a language code that we have defined as "Southern Zazaki". You seem to be good at sorting out random obscure languages that no-one's ever heard of; do you think you could take a look?

Thanks in advance,
RuakhTALK 03:17, 27 September 2012 (UTC)

Probably a confusion due to Wikipedia using {{diq}} for Zazaki. WT:RFM#Template:zza, Template:diq, Template:kiu is probably a related discussion. -- Liliana 03:25, 27 September 2012 (UTC)


I deleted ԓы̄ as RFV-failed. Skvodo also created a number of other yrk entries with those 'incorrect' characters, as well as some other dubious entries. Should the other yrk entries be RFVed, or would you prefer to just delete them as incorrect / no-usable content given? - -sche (discuss) 03:06, 30 September 2012 (UTC)

The one other entry with the same characters should probably also go down the trash can. The others, not sure. -- Liliana 12:11, 30 September 2012 (UTC)
OK, I've deleted the other misspelt one and found references for all the others except one which I've RFVed. - -sche (discuss) 05:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)


Circumposition is a valid header per WT:POS. Could you update KassadBot with this bit of information? See [9], [10], [11]. - -sche (discuss) 01:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)

New headers are to be added to User:AutoFormat/Headers -- Liliana 04:19, 1 October 2012 (UTC)
Aha, thanks for the tip! :) - -sche (discuss) 05:04, 1 October 2012 (UTC)