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Please do not edit policy or guideline pages to reflect your personal opinion on this matter without discussing with other editors with experience in Ancient Greek entries first. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:15, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
|Hello, Benwing. You have new messages at Metaknowledge's talk page.
- I was the one who wrote many of the original orthography and transliteration standards, though they have undergone some changes in the intervening time. In any case, I'm happy to address some of your issues. However, I think we need to set some things straight first. To begin with, we have had a great many self-proclaimed experts come and go on this project. You must understand that the anonymous context of the internet forces us to treat claims of authority with a grain of salt. Additionally, assertions of what absolutely needs to happen right now simply won't do. Things are done here based on consensus. If you would like things to change, that's completely reasonable. However, you must present your evidence, and win allies with discussion. Personally, I think that vowel length and accent are real components of Ancient Greek phonology, and are something that merits note in our entries; however I think it's important to understand what the purpose of transliterations are here on Wiktionary. Transliterations are never used here as a substitute for the original script, as they are in many other contexts. They are a pedagogic tool, used to help those who don't understand the original script, which they accompany. So, they are an approximation for the uninformed. A highly precise technical transliteration is unnecessary, and serves only to confuse those whom it is meant to help. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:04, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- Sorry to barge in like this but this issue with vowel length is one of many issues with Wiktionary which (esp. compared to the English Wikipedia) make it look rather amateurish. (Lack of references is another one.)
- I understand your concern about self-proclaimed experts. But go look at my contributions on the English Wikipedia and you will see that I do actually know a bit about the subjects at hand. Ask User:CodeCat, User:Angr and others who contribute to Wikipedia linguistics/language articles about me, if you want.
- I'm also guessing that you are not an expert in linguistics, but may have some Classicist knowledge of Ancient Greek. The Classicist viewpoint comes through in various things you say (denigration of transcriptions as an "approximation for the uninformed", insistence on use and importance of the original script, apparent unconcern with not noting vowel length explicitly in all cases). However, Wiktionary is a linguistic work; this goes especially for etymologies. Hence we need to be following linguistic standards, not Classicist standards.
- On top of this, your statements about transcriptions are wrong on a number of counts:
- In technical linguistics articles esp. on historical linguistics and etymology, it is not reasonable to expect that readers can handle every script out there. Transcription (not "transliteration", which refers to letter-for-letter representation in Latin script, although for Greek the difference isn't too great) is the norm and is the only reasonable way e.g. for even a knowledgeable reader to handle the different languages. Hence, something like the etymology of Old Irish ibid "he drinks" that makes references to Latin bibō and pōtō, Greek pī́nō, Armenian ǝmpǝm, Sanskrit pibati, Old Church Slavonic piti will make everyone go crazy if they are written in four different scripts (Greek, Armenian, Devanagari, Cyrillic) with the expectation that the readers "should" know all these scripts and are "uninformed" (your words) if they don't.
- Furthermore, the problem here is that the original Greek script wasn't properly reflecting long vowels, either. This is evidently due to your assertion, made into policy, that vowel length doesn't need to be noted in the Greek script or transcription — a typically Classicist viewpoint, quite reasonable in the context of intrepreting a work of Ancient Greek literature but not appropriate to a linguistic work.
- Where should this discussion take place? I'm not asserting, and never asserted, that this change must happen "right now", but it does indeed need to happen at some point, hopefully soon. I am almost positive that all the other linguists working here (I've seen CodeCat and Angr here, there must be others) will agree with me, so I imagine consensus is not too hard to reach on this.
- For reference, compare what's done in Latin, Old English, Old High German, etc. where long vowels are always indicated in all uses of every word including in head words, even though the original texts didn't have length marks any more than the original Greek texts did. Greek should follow what every other language does.
Benwing (talk) 09:07, 15 November 2013 (UTC)
- If you would like to gain official consensus the Beer parlour is the appropriate place. There are indeed a number of other editors who seem to prefer the more involved transcriptions. I have held them off thus far, but it's quite possible that a determined and eloquent proponent could cause a shift in policy. Until such time, though, I would ask that you refrain from editing existing entries to conform to your view, as I will continue to undo such edits. If you wish to create new content, you are more at liberty to do so as you wish. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 16:43, 15 November 2013 (UTC)