Wiktionary talk:About Japanese

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Updates needed for {{ja-readings}}?[edit]

I've been filling in the yomi of a number of kanji entries lately, and I've run into some structural limitations of the {{ja-readings}} template. For single kanji used for verbs, the kun'yomi section in particular can become ridiculously large and visually messy, as can be seen at 結#Japanese. I've been trying to use sane wiki markup so anyone coming after me can more easily see what's going on, like the following:

====Readings====
* {{ja-readings
| on=<!--
-->[[けつ]] (''[[ketsu]]''), <!--
-->[[けい]] (''[[kei]]'')
| kanyoon=<!--
-->[[結]] ([[けち]] ''[[kechi]]'') to win an [[archery]] competition; to claim undecided territory in the [[endgame]] of [[go#Etymology_2|go]], <!--
-->[[結する]] ([[けっする]], ''[[kessuru]]'') to become [[constipated]]; to [[tie up]] or [[conclude]] an [[argument]] or stated position, <!--
-->[[結す]] ([[けっす]], ''[[kessu]]'') alternate for 結する
| kun=<!--
-->[[結ぶ]] ([[むすぶ]] ''[[musubu]]''), <!--
-->[[結び]] ([[むすび]] ''[[musubi]]''), <!--
-->[[結ばる]] ([[むすばる]] ''[[musubaru]]''), <!--
-->[[結ばわる]] ([[むすばわる]] ''[[musubawaru]]''), <!--
-->[[結ぼる]] ([[むすぼる]] ''[[musuboru]]''), <!--
-->[[結ぼうる]] ([[むすぼうる]] ''[[musubōru]]''), <!--
-->[[結ぼれる]] ([[むすぼれる]] ''[[musuboreru]]''), <!--
-->[[結う]] ([[ゆう]] ''[[yuu]]''), <!--
-->[[結い]] ([[ゆい]] ''[[yui]]''), <!--
-->[[結わう]] ([[ゆわう]] ''[[yuwau]]''), <!--
-->[[結わえる]] ([[ゆわえる]] ''[[yuwaeru]]''), <!--
-->[[結える]] ([[いわえる]] ''[[iwaeru]]'') alternate for 結わえる, <!--
-->[[結く]] ([[いわく]] ''[[iwaku]]'') alternate for 結わえる, <!--
-->[[結く]] ([[すく]] ''[[suku]]'') to [[knit]] a [[net]], <!--
-->[[結なす]] ([[かたなす]] ''[[katanasu]]'') to gather or tie together into one bunch, <!--
-->[[結める]] ([[かためる]] ''[[kataneru]]'') to bind together; to open and read out the content of official documents, <!--
-->[[結ぬ]] ([[かたぬ]] ''[[katanu]]'') alternate for 結ねる
| nanori=
}}

The 結#Japanese example is plug ugly, and hard to read, but all of the information there is proper to include as best I can tell, and does indeed belong in the list of kun'yomi. What I'd like is for the {{ja-readings}} template to show readings in a bulleted list, for a cleaner presentation and easier usability.

Instead of this:

Readings[edit]

... I'd rather see something like this:

Readings[edit]

On:

Kan'yō:

Kun:

Ideally, the template would also allow folks to input multiple readings with each on its own line, as in the 結#Japanese code sample above but minus the crutch of <!-- --> HTML comments --- but that's probably asking too much, given what I've seen of template syntax (yech!).

I'm hoping there's someone reading this page who has the requisite template expertise to implement this change. If I hear nothing in, say, a week or two, I may have a go at making the change myself.  :) -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 23:12, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

There's been no comment for the last half-year, so I'll start looking into changing the template. -- Ta, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:25, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Turns out the template is locked. I've posted on Template_talk:ja-readings#Formatting_when_the_list_of_yomi_gets_long in an attempt to get some momentum going. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 17:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
I've replied there. - -sche (discuss) 02:14, 7 September 2011 (UTC)

romanizing -suru verbs[edit]

I was wondering what the word is on how to romanize -suru verbs like 勉強する, that is, as benkyō suru or benkyōsuru. According to the supplied example, 監督する, there is a space, as there is for 勉強する. I would assume there should be one since there is a space for -na adjectives as well. On the other hand, when I casually looked at a number of other type-3 verbs, all of them had no spaces. Maybe I missed something but I couldn't find anything that explicitly says if there should be a space or not. I don't have a preference one way or the other, but it seems to me that the dictionary ought to be consistent, so is it safe to assume that the entries without spaces should be edited to include them? thanks! Haplology 16:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

A bit late in replying, but I'd put my 2p on including the space. This makes it clear that the core part of the word (the bit in kanji) is distinct. After all, only the する part conjugates, and both the core part and する are indeed distinct words unto themselves. A number of Japanese publications I've seen that use romaji will leave out the space, but I think this is primarily in reflection of the lack of spaces in Japanese writing. Latin-alphabet writing needs spaces for clearer visual parsing, in part as we don't have the nice kanji-vs.-kana visual distinction to rely upon. -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:22, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Ateji and rare readings[edit]

A question for the group, here --

Is there any consensus on how best to handle nonstandard ateji or otherwise rare pronunciations?

  • Another example is 神#Kanji, which includes the reading たましい. I've only ever seen たましい spelled in kanji as either or (more rarely) , but I could imagine 神 being used instead as an 意読.

So, do we remove such rarities? Do we keep them, but mark them? If so, how? Is there some sort of threshold for frequency of use before we include an 意読 for a particular kanji word?

Any insight appreciated. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:14, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Lemma forms for keiyōdōshi[edit]

Can anyone elucidate the reasoning behind including the な on the end for keiyōdōshi lemma forms? This な is essentially a particle, and is in no way integral to the word, as can be seen by swapping this for に to create the adverbial, or for だ to create the terminal. It would seem to make much more sense to use the root form of a keiyōdōshi, i.e. the form without the な, as the lemma -- as, indeed, do all other dictionaries that I'm aware of. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 20:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Haplology 16:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Work needed on Template:ja-na[edit]

Please have a look at Template_talk:ja-na#Redesign needed to deal with adjectives that have no kanji and respond as appropriate. I am happy to implement the changes myself, so feel free to give your opinion even if you aren't up on template syntax. -- TIA, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 17:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Work Needed[edit]

(Copied over from WT:Beer_parlour#WT:About_Japanese)

Following comments in various other threads, it appears that the WT:AJA page needs some work. The issues I'm immediately aware of:

  • Quasi-adjectives (な adjectives): WT:AJA insists on including the な in the headword, which does not appear to be the current consensus.
  • の adjectives: WT:AJA does not include any clear guidelines for these. (Relatedly, {{ja-adj}} doesn't include any way of handling these either.)
  • Suru compound verbs: WT:AJA calls for using the {{ja-suru}} template. However, する is a standalone verb, so including the する conjugation on each and every compound verb page seems excessive.
  • {{ja-kanjitab}}: WT:AJA describes including this under an === Etymology === section if there is one, but including under the main == Japanese == section produces largely identical results, unless there are multiple etymology sections, in which case repeating the kanjitab seems excessive.
  • The Transliteration subpage could also use some work, particularly with regard to spacing and what constitutes a single word in Japanese (i.e., particles should be separate, suru should be separate, etc. etc.).
  • 連体詞: WT:AJA states that this should be given a POS of "prefix", but that is really not what these words are -- a prefix is part of a word, whereas 連体詞 are clearly standalone words. They are less prefixes and more like true adjectives, in that they must precede a noun.
  • Single-kanji entries: WT:AJA has no clear instructions on how to specify okurigana in kun'yomi listings, nor any clear instructions on how to format these to link to verb forms. For instance, shows one way of clarifying okurigana and linking to kanji+okurigana entries, but is a bit visually messy; ja:食#日本語 looks a bit cleaner with the use of hyphens to show the break between the kanji and the okurigana, and this roughly matches the format I've most often seen in dead-tree dictionaries, but the entry doesn't link to any kanji+okurigana entries, just to the hiragana entries; and doesn't show okurigana or link to any kanji+okurigana entries.

This post is really just meant to get the ball rolling. Many of these changes listed above are a departure from what WT:AJA currently says, so I'm hoping to spark a bit of discussion before making any edits. -- TIA, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 17:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

  1. Regarding your first point: you're proposing to remove from the address of the page, not just the headword, correct? (You're proposing to move 浅はかな to 浅はか, and to change the headword from 浅はかな (な-na declension, hiragana あさはかな, romaji asahaka na) to 浅はか (な-na declension, hiragana あさはか, romaji asahaka)?) Do any other changes need to be made to quasi-adjective entries? For example, do the declension tables need to be modified? I'm trying to ascertain how difficult it would be to make the change by bot. It seems it would be simple (move the page and eg change "な|rom" and " na}}" to "|rom" and "}}"), and you could write a bot or ask one of our technically-skilled editors to write one for you. The only comments I've seen in discussions of this subject have supported removal of the , so I would say there's consensus for the change.
  2. Regarding の adjectives: can you give an example of one?
  3. Regarding Suru compound verbs: is there any harm in giving the conjugation? On de. and en.Wikt, we give eg the conjugation of anhalten and zurückhalten, even though it is merely the conjugation of halten + an/zurück. The code to generate the conjugation table appears to use only information that is already elsewhere in the entry, so including the template seems not to require the creator of an entry to look up any more information than (s)he has already had to look up to determine the page title and write the {{ja-verb}} headword line. I would keep the conjugation tables in all of the entries.
    In a later point, you seem to suggest considering suru a separate word. Would you propose deleting the Suru verbs as SOP at that point?
  4. Isn't [[:ja:食#日本語]] an interwiki link to ja.Wikt? What did you mean to write? - -sche (discuss) 01:42, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello -sche, I've taken the liberty of changing the bullets in your reply to numbers for easier reference. My correspondingly numbered replies below:
  1. Yes, the main lemma entry should be the form without the な - so 浅はか would be the main page, and 浅はかな would mostly just point to 浅はか, much as any other entry for a conjugated word form mostly just points to the main headword. As far as I can tell, the only changes needed would be to the headwords and related minutiae; it would probably be bot-able. Moving from [quasi]+な to just [quasi] would be the easiest option. I don't think declination tables need any changing at all; in fact, they're partly what got me thinking about the change, since they include the adjectival な forms, but also the adverbial に forms, among others, making a lemma with no following particle the more natural place to put such information. Moreover, all other dictionaries I've ever used do not include the な on the end in any headwords.
    Do you know of any good resource or tutorial pages in the MediaWiki universe here that describe how to make a bot?
  2. Just off the top of my head (entries I've worked on recently), の adjective examples include (とひと) and でぶでぶ. Conjugation would be mostly the same as for な adjectives, but I'd have to go through my references to tell you the exact differences.
  3. No harm in including the する conjugation. There are simply *so many* more of these types of verbs as there are of any one type of verb in German or English that things start to get kind of silly with the repetition, but no, there's no real harm in having it.
    And yes, する is a standalone verb in its own right, which simply means "to do", so by that measure, [noun]+する pages would indeed be SOP. However, it is important to be able to note which nouns can be used in verbal ways. From an aesthetic perspective, it'd be much more graceful to include [noun]+する information right on the [noun] page, and sending the user to the する page for information on how that verb is conjugated. That's perhaps too much to bother with for a bot, though, I'm not sure.
    FWIW, other Japanese dictionaries (either JA-JA or JA<>EN) list just the [noun] entries, and mark within them whether the noun can take する -- there are no [noun]+する headwords in any other dictionary that I've ever seen.
  4. The [[ja:食#日本語]] bit is indeed a link to the Japanese Wiktionary, specifically to the 日本語 (Japanese) heading on the 食 page. That was intended to provide an example of how the JA WT folks are formatting their entries with regard to okurigana - something that we don't have any official policy or plan for.
Hope this helps explain things. -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 05:47, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarifications!
  1. Wikipedia has w:Wikipedia:Creating a bot. I myself know little about bots.
  2. Editing {{ja-adj}} to handle の adjectives seems to be the simplest of these issues (because the template requires relatively few parameters and displays relatively little information, for example no declined forms). I think the only change that needs to be made is to make the template accept "no" (and の?) as an answer to "decl=", and display "の-no declension"... right? I think you could go ahead and make that improvement to the template; we may still lack a template like {{ja-suru}} that produces the conjugated forms, but because many entries lack conjugation sections, I do not think it is necessary to design a の-conjugation-template before updating the headword-line template.
  3. I'd like to keep the definition-lines currently in the [noun]+する entries, because they do vary in form/meaning at least slightly (失礼する = "to be rude", but 旅行する = "to travel, to make a journey"). I do like the idea of listing such information in the noun entries (indeed, even if the compounds are kept!) — perhaps like this or this?
  4. Oh, sorry; I thought you meant [[:ja:食#日本語]] and {{l|ja|食}} were alternative ways of linking to entries! I misunderstood (and still do not understand, ha) that issue. - -sche (discuss) 07:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Hallo noch einmal, bevor ich schlaffe --
Ich sehe auf Deiner Benutzerseite daß Du deutsch sprichst, aber vielleicht ließt Du auch japanisch? Ich weiß gar nicht ob ich diese Romaji auch schreiben soll, aber ich will doch nicht 失礼する wenn Du vielleicht Romaji brauchest.  :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 08:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
And about the ja wikt and en wikt bits, that was just about contrasting how the en.wikt entry for looks for the on'yomi and kun'yomi versus how the ja.wikt entry looks. The ja entry clearly delineates where the kanji pronunciation ends and the okurigana begin, whereas the en entry doesn't -- which is a bit of a failing. -- Cheers, er, Tschüß, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 08:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the consensus on these changes to WT:AJA. There are a couple of other questions I want to add:
  • Is there some way we can indicate that an adverb takes the particle -と (-to)? It is so common that perhaps it ought to be in the headword template, but I don't think there's a field for it in ja-pos.
  • I don't have a preference either way but it would be nice if AJA were clear about how to format counters, specifically if they take a hyphen, like -匹, or if they have none. It says "e.g., -本", which looks like 本 plus a hyphen at first glance, but the link itself has no hyphen. At least it should be rewritten for clarity.
  • Speaking of bots, could we make a bot to add or fix hidx? It's completely mechanical and uncontroversial, but hard for newbies to pick up and easy for anyone to forget. I've noticed that there's a lot of variation in how it's used.
Thanks Haplogy 13:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello,
Thanks to Eiríkr for pointing me to this discussion. If no one objects, I'd like to get the ball rolling on changing the な-type adjectives with this change to WT:AJA#Quasi-adjectives:
== Quasi-adjectives ==
The main entry for quasi-adjectives should be in the 'plain' or 'root' form:

 === Adjective ===
 {{ja-adj|k|decl=な|hira=(kana)|rom=(romaji)}}

E.g. 平安 (heian) has a level 3 section like this:
 === Adjective ===
 {{ja-adj|k|decl=な|hira=へいあん|rom=heian}}

平安 (hiragana へいあん, romaji heian)

This should be followed by the definition(s), and then the declension table using template {{ja-na}}.

Note that the “plain form” in this case is also a noun. This should not be a problem; just as bet is both a verb and a noun, 平安  is both a noun and an adjective.
Does this look good? (Sorry the formatting is awkward, I wanted it all to be in that grey box thing.) -MichaelLau 01:58, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Haplogy 05:19, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm fine with this mostly, too, except for one sticking point -- many (most?) 形容動詞 are not nouns at all, such as 静か or でぶでぶ, and cannot be the subject of a sentence. I think 平安 is actually the exception here. With this in mind, I'd rework that last para as follows:
Note that the “plain form” in this case is also a noun for certain words. This should not be a problem; just as bet is both a verb and a noun, 平安  is both a noun and an adjective.
And then there's also the various ways in which they conjugate - some take な and some take の to become adjectives, some take に and others take と to become adverbs - which we need to build into the template (the な・に format is already built in). A few oddballs appear to do both in one way or another, such as 常・恒, for which I can find examples of use as an adjective with both な and の.
Food for thought, anyway. I'm glad this discussion is happening. What would folks say to one of us creating a copy of the current version of WT:AJA, maybe by creating a new page at WT:About_Japanese/Draft or somewhere similar and just copying the content of WT:AJA over, and then we can start collaboratively editing the draft version? -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 07:24, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I made the /draft page. I think there are probably a lot of ways to change this to make it easier to navigate also. For instance, people should know whether they are interested in contributing to classical Japanese, so all those sections on classical Japanese can be extracted and made their own page or section without cluttering up the page for everyone else. -MichaelLau 14:26, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I made what I think is the minor change of changing [[lemma]]: to {{ja-def|lemma}} to the links under section 3.1 Non-lemma forms. Haplogy 14:46, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Brilliant, thank you Michael and Haplology! I'm creating the Wiktionary_talk:About_Japanese/Draft page to discuss edits to the draft. -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

link to separate characters in the headword[edit]

Wiktionary:Feedback#.E7.AB.AF.E6.9C.AB could be implemented by adding a head= paramter to the Japanece templates, and then setting head=. We should keep the box, because it displays the kanji in a large, legible font, but is there a reason not to also link them in the headword? (Oh, maybe blue/red font is harder to read, especially if one character is blue and the other is red.) - -sche (discuss) 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be more approprate for multipart terms (see my change to ロシア連邦, not for each character (kanji or kana) but that just IMHO. I changed ジェシカ because it looked ugly to me. We do have a kanji box, adding the same in the header would be redundant, again, IMHO. --Anatoli 23:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

~々[edit]

How should we format words made up of two identical kanji, like 次々? "~々" is the only one you can find outside of dictionaries, hence probably more likely to be searched for. On the other hand, "次次" is the real word, in a sense, and all the dictionaries that I can find list these words as "次次" rather than "次々". I'm leaning toward making "次次" the lemma entry, and listing "次々" as an alternative form using {{alternative form of}}. The link at tsugitsugi would point to 次次. What does everyone else think? Haplology 05:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I prefer 次々, as people search for the most common spelling, not the "correct" one. I wouldn’t write 次次, because it just looks wrong. (次次回 jijikai is okay though I prefer 次々回.) If we follow paper dictionaries, we should have つぎつぎ as main entry, but it is not the case here on Wiktionary. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm with Takasugi-san here that the lemma should be under the most common rendering, 次々 in this case. That said, I think we should also have a 次次 entry, pointing back to 次々, in the interests of completeness and in case anyone does look up the doubled form. -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 17:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Fullwidth alphabet letters and digits, and halfwidth katakana[edit]

Atitarev and I had a discussion about fullwidth digits in User talk:Atitarev#Fullwidth digits. As I have explained there, fullwidth digits, namely , , , , , , , , , and , are considered obsolete by the Unicode standard, and I don’t think we should use them for main entries. What do you think? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 10:20, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I certainly don't see much utility in having these, since they're only a typographical mechanism for displaying the Arabic numerals in double-byte fonts. I would just recommend deleting them, except I know we have other WT pages for single characters. Maybe this is something to bring up in the WT:Beer parlor? -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 14:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
The ten character pages I listed above are all right, because they explain Unicode information. What Atitarev and I talked about is which is good for the main entry of 十日 written with Arabic numerals, the halfwidth 10日 or the fullwidth 10日. I think we should use the former naturally. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:25, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Ah, I'm with you now. I agree that half-width (i.e. single-byte) numerals should be used instead of full-width (i.e. double-byte). -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 19:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
If display is a concern, as Anatoli suggests, it is possible to put text like "10日" in a template that uses an appropriately monospace font, just as Hebrew text is put into a template so that it can be displayed in an appropriately legible font. - -sche (discuss) 18:37, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Talk:CD is related to this issue. A discussion archived on that page reached the decision that Japanese words which are spelt in Latin script should be spelt in "regular" Latin letters, not in fullwidth ones, hence the Japanese word for a compact disc is CD, not CD. - -sche (discuss) 00:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

On ja-kanjitab[edit]

Please see & comment: Template talk:ja-kanjitab#Links to Translingual. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 12:44, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Alternative readings header[edit]

There are several entries in the category Category:Entries with non-standard headers with the header "Alternative readings". Should the header be changed, or is that header OK (in which case, remove the cleanup template and inform Liliana). - -sche (discuss) 21:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

See also [1], ひょく, びょう, byō. - -sche (discuss) 01:13, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Romaji entries[edit]

Does anyone object to changing romaji entries as per Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/February#Stripping_extra_info_from_Japanese_romaji?

==Japanese==

===Romanization===
{{ja-romaji|hira=りゅうと|kata=リュート}}

# {{ja-def|隆と}} stylishly
# {{ja-def|リュート}} a lute {{gloss|the musical instrument}}

--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:16, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Canned usage note for katakana in science[edit]

How would everyone feel about a template like {{kata-bio}} that goes something like this?

As with all names of plants and animals, the katakana form of this term is always preferred in scientific contexts.

Feel free to reword this.

I think a note like this would be appropriate for any entry which is the name of a plant or animal. Since it's the same message each time, it would be nice to have it written in the best possible way, both for substance and for style. As for substance, I'm not sure if medical doctors treat katakana the same way--please add details if you know. There is a cluster of entries from long ago which have a similar usage note which was evidently copy-pasted between them (and its style could have been improved in my opinion.) --Haplology (talk) 03:19, 27 March 2013 (UTC)