Wiktionary talk:About Japanese

Definition from Wiktionary, the free dictionary
Jump to navigation Jump to search
  1. Archive 1 (Inactive topics as of April 25, 2006)
  2. Archive 2 (Threads from 2004 to 2010)

Updates needed for {{ja-readings}}?[edit]

I've been filling in the yomi of a number of kanji entries lately, and I've run into some structural limitations of the {{ja-readings}} template. For single kanji used for verbs, the kun'yomi section in particular can become ridiculously large and visually messy, as can be seen at 結#Japanese. I've been trying to use sane wiki markup so anyone coming after me can more easily see what's going on, like the following:

* {{ja-readings
| on=<!--
-->[[けつ]] (''[[ketsu]]''), <!--
-->[[けい]] (''[[kei]]'')
| kanyoon=<!--
-->[[結]] ([[けち]] ''[[kechi]]'') to win an [[archery]] competition; to claim undecided territory in the [[endgame]] of [[go#Etymology_2|go]], <!--
-->[[結する]] ([[けっする]], ''[[kessuru]]'') to become [[constipated]]; to [[tie up]] or [[conclude]] an [[argument]] or stated position, <!--
-->[[結す]] ([[けっす]], ''[[kessu]]'') alternate for 結する
| kun=<!--
-->[[結ぶ]] ([[むすぶ]] ''[[musubu]]''), <!--
-->[[結び]] ([[むすび]] ''[[musubi]]''), <!--
-->[[結ばる]] ([[むすばる]] ''[[musubaru]]''), <!--
-->[[結ばわる]] ([[むすばわる]] ''[[musubawaru]]''), <!--
-->[[結ぼる]] ([[むすぼる]] ''[[musuboru]]''), <!--
-->[[結ぼうる]] ([[むすぼうる]] ''[[musubōru]]''), <!--
-->[[結ぼれる]] ([[むすぼれる]] ''[[musuboreru]]''), <!--
-->[[結う]] ([[ゆう]] ''[[yuu]]''), <!--
-->[[結い]] ([[ゆい]] ''[[yui]]''), <!--
-->[[結わう]] ([[ゆわう]] ''[[yuwau]]''), <!--
-->[[結わえる]] ([[ゆわえる]] ''[[yuwaeru]]''), <!--
-->[[結える]] ([[いわえる]] ''[[iwaeru]]'') alternate for 結わえる, <!--
-->[[結く]] ([[いわく]] ''[[iwaku]]'') alternate for 結わえる, <!--
-->[[結く]] ([[すく]] ''[[suku]]'') to [[knit]] a [[net]], <!--
-->[[結なす]] ([[かたなす]] ''[[katanasu]]'') to gather or tie together into one bunch, <!--
-->[[結める]] ([[かためる]] ''[[kataneru]]'') to bind together; to open and read out the content of official documents, <!--
-->[[結ぬ]] ([[かたぬ]] ''[[katanu]]'') alternate for 結ねる
| nanori=

The 結#Japanese example is plug ugly, and hard to read, but all of the information there is proper to include as best I can tell, and does indeed belong in the list of kun'yomi. What I'd like is for the {{ja-readings}} template to show readings in a bulleted list, for a cleaner presentation and easier usability.

Instead of this:


... I'd rather see something like this:





Ideally, the template would also allow folks to input multiple readings with each on its own line, as in the 結#Japanese code sample above but minus the crutch of <!-- --> HTML comments --- but that's probably asking too much, given what I've seen of template syntax (yech!).

I'm hoping there's someone reading this page who has the requisite template expertise to implement this change. If I hear nothing in, say, a week or two, I may have a go at making the change myself. :) -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 23:12, 1 February 2011 (UTC)

There's been no comment for the last half-year, so I'll start looking into changing the template. -- Ta, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:25, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Turns out the template is locked. I've posted on Template_talk:ja-readings#Formatting_when_the_list_of_yomi_gets_long in an attempt to get some momentum going. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 17:16, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
I've replied there. - -sche (discuss) 02:14, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
@Eirikr I'm sure everyone would agree that your proposed format would be a vast improvement to what the ja-readings template gives us. I've read the comments on the template page and it sounds like the change you are proposing to this template will not be forthcoming for various reasons which I can't understand, but is there anything that should prevent us from reformatting these without a template, as you have above? 馬太阿房 (talk) 16:35, 21 April 2017 (UTC)

romanizing -suru verbs[edit]

I was wondering what the word is on how to romanize -suru verbs like 勉強する, that is, as benkyō suru or benkyōsuru. According to the supplied example, 監督する, there is a space, as there is for 勉強する. I would assume there should be one since there is a space for -na adjectives as well. On the other hand, when I casually looked at a number of other type-3 verbs, all of them had no spaces. Maybe I missed something but I couldn't find anything that explicitly says if there should be a space or not. I don't have a preference one way or the other, but it seems to me that the dictionary ought to be consistent, so is it safe to assume that the entries without spaces should be edited to include them? thanks! Haplology 16:29, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

A bit late in replying, but I'd put my 2p on including the space. This makes it clear that the core part of the word (the bit in kanji) is distinct. After all, only the する part conjugates, and both the core part and する are indeed distinct words unto themselves. A number of Japanese publications I've seen that use romaji will leave out the space, but I think this is primarily in reflection of the lack of spaces in Japanese writing. Latin-alphabet writing needs spaces for clearer visual parsing, in part as we don't have the nice kanji-vs.-kana visual distinction to rely upon. -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:22, 4 August 2011 (UTC)
Really old thread that probably doesn't matter anymore but I for one like to attach -suru w/o a space to enforce the idea that 勉強する as a whole is a verb... —suzukaze (tc) 04:24, 28 August 2016 (UTC)

Ateji and rare readings[edit]

A question for the group, here --

Is there any consensus on how best to handle nonstandard ateji or otherwise rare pronunciations?

  • Another example is 神#Kanji, which includes the reading たましい. I've only ever seen たましい spelled in kanji as either or (more rarely) , but I could imagine 神 being used instead as an 意読.

So, do we remove such rarities? Do we keep them, but mark them? If so, how? Is there some sort of threshold for frequency of use before we include an 意読 for a particular kanji word?

Any insight appreciated. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:14, 4 August 2011 (UTC)

Lemma forms for keiyōdōshi[edit]

Can anyone elucidate the reasoning behind including the な on the end for keiyōdōshi lemma forms? This な is essentially a particle, and is in no way integral to the word, as can be seen by swapping this for に to create the adverbial, or for だ to create the terminal. It would seem to make much more sense to use the root form of a keiyōdōshi, i.e. the form without the な, as the lemma -- as, indeed, do all other dictionaries that I'm aware of. -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 20:19, 22 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree. Haplology 16:34, 23 August 2011 (UTC)

Work needed on Template:ja-na[edit]

Please have a look at Template_talk:ja-na#Redesign needed to deal with adjectives that have no kanji and respond as appropriate. I am happy to implement the changes myself, so feel free to give your opinion even if you aren't up on template syntax. -- TIA, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 17:36, 25 August 2011 (UTC)

Work Needed[edit]

(Copied over from WT:Beer_parlour#WT:About_Japanese)

Following comments in various other threads, it appears that the WT:AJA page needs some work. The issues I'm immediately aware of:

  • Quasi-adjectives (な adjectives): WT:AJA insists on including the な in the headword, which does not appear to be the current consensus.
  • の adjectives: WT:AJA does not include any clear guidelines for these. (Relatedly, {{ja-adj}} doesn't include any way of handling these either.)
  • Suru compound verbs: WT:AJA calls for using the {{ja-suru}} template. However, する is a standalone verb, so including the する conjugation on each and every compound verb page seems excessive.
  • {{ja-kanjitab}}: WT:AJA describes including this under an === Etymology === section if there is one, but including under the main == Japanese == section produces largely identical results, unless there are multiple etymology sections, in which case repeating the kanjitab seems excessive.
  • The Transliteration subpage could also use some work, particularly with regard to spacing and what constitutes a single word in Japanese (i.e., particles should be separate, suru should be separate, etc. etc.).
  • 連体詞: WT:AJA states that this should be given a POS of "prefix", but that is really not what these words are -- a prefix is part of a word, whereas 連体詞 are clearly standalone words. They are less prefixes and more like true adjectives, in that they must precede a noun.
  • Single-kanji entries: WT:AJA has no clear instructions on how to specify okurigana in kun'yomi listings, nor any clear instructions on how to format these to link to verb forms. For instance, shows one way of clarifying okurigana and linking to kanji+okurigana entries, but is a bit visually messy; ja:食#日本語 looks a bit cleaner with the use of hyphens to show the break between the kanji and the okurigana, and this roughly matches the format I've most often seen in dead-tree dictionaries, but the entry doesn't link to any kanji+okurigana entries, just to the hiragana entries; and doesn't show okurigana or link to any kanji+okurigana entries.

This post is really just meant to get the ball rolling. Many of these changes listed above are a departure from what WT:AJA currently says, so I'm hoping to spark a bit of discussion before making any edits. -- TIA, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 17:41, 6 September 2011 (UTC)

  1. Regarding your first point: you're proposing to remove from the address of the page, not just the headword, correct? (You're proposing to move 浅はかな to 浅はか, and to change the headword from 浅はかな (な-na declension, hiragana あさはかな, romaji asahaka na) to 浅はか (な-na declension, hiragana あさはか, romaji asahaka)?) Do any other changes need to be made to quasi-adjective entries? For example, do the declension tables need to be modified? I'm trying to ascertain how difficult it would be to make the change by bot. It seems it would be simple (move the page and eg change "な|rom" and " na}}" to "|rom" and "}}"), and you could write a bot or ask one of our technically-skilled editors to write one for you. The only comments I've seen in discussions of this subject have supported removal of the , so I would say there's consensus for the change.
  2. Regarding の adjectives: can you give an example of one?
  3. Regarding Suru compound verbs: is there any harm in giving the conjugation? On de. and en.Wikt, we give eg the conjugation of anhalten and zurückhalten, even though it is merely the conjugation of halten + an/zurück. The code to generate the conjugation table appears to use only information that is already elsewhere in the entry, so including the template seems not to require the creator of an entry to look up any more information than (s)he has already had to look up to determine the page title and write the {{ja-verb}} headword line. I would keep the conjugation tables in all of the entries.
    In a later point, you seem to suggest considering suru a separate word. Would you propose deleting the Suru verbs as SOP at that point?
  4. Isn't [[:ja:食#日本語]] an interwiki link to ja.Wikt? What did you mean to write? - -sche (discuss) 01:42, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Hello -sche, I've taken the liberty of changing the bullets in your reply to numbers for easier reference. My correspondingly numbered replies below:
  1. Yes, the main lemma entry should be the form without the な - so 浅はか would be the main page, and 浅はかな would mostly just point to 浅はか, much as any other entry for a conjugated word form mostly just points to the main headword. As far as I can tell, the only changes needed would be to the headwords and related minutiae; it would probably be bot-able. Moving from [quasi]+な to just [quasi] would be the easiest option. I don't think declination tables need any changing at all; in fact, they're partly what got me thinking about the change, since they include the adjectival な forms, but also the adverbial に forms, among others, making a lemma with no following particle the more natural place to put such information. Moreover, all other dictionaries I've ever used do not include the な on the end in any headwords.
    Do you know of any good resource or tutorial pages in the MediaWiki universe here that describe how to make a bot?
  2. Just off the top of my head (entries I've worked on recently), の adjective examples include (とひと) and でぶでぶ. Conjugation would be mostly the same as for な adjectives, but I'd have to go through my references to tell you the exact differences.
  3. No harm in including the する conjugation. There are simply *so many* more of these types of verbs as there are of any one type of verb in German or English that things start to get kind of silly with the repetition, but no, there's no real harm in having it.
    And yes, する is a standalone verb in its own right, which simply means "to do", so by that measure, [noun]+する pages would indeed be SOP. However, it is important to be able to note which nouns can be used in verbal ways. From an aesthetic perspective, it'd be much more graceful to include [noun]+する information right on the [noun] page, and sending the user to the する page for information on how that verb is conjugated. That's perhaps too much to bother with for a bot, though, I'm not sure.
    FWIW, other Japanese dictionaries (either JA-JA or JA<>EN) list just the [noun] entries, and mark within them whether the noun can take する -- there are no [noun]+する headwords in any other dictionary that I've ever seen.
  4. The [[ja:食#日本語]] bit is indeed a link to the Japanese Wiktionary, specifically to the 日本語 (Japanese) heading on the 食 page. That was intended to provide an example of how the JA WT folks are formatting their entries with regard to okurigana - something that we don't have any official policy or plan for.
Hope this helps explain things. -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 05:47, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks for the clarifications!
  1. Wikipedia has w:Wikipedia:Creating a bot. I myself know little about bots.
  2. Editing {{ja-adj}} to handle の adjectives seems to be the simplest of these issues (because the template requires relatively few parameters and displays relatively little information, for example no declined forms). I think the only change that needs to be made is to make the template accept "no" (and の?) as an answer to "decl=", and display "の-no declension"... right? I think you could go ahead and make that improvement to the template; we may still lack a template like {{ja-suru}} that produces the conjugated forms, but because many entries lack conjugation sections, I do not think it is necessary to design a の-conjugation-template before updating the headword-line template.
  3. I'd like to keep the definition-lines currently in the [noun]+する entries, because they do vary in form/meaning at least slightly (失礼する = "to be rude", but 旅行する = "to travel, to make a journey"). I do like the idea of listing such information in the noun entries (indeed, even if the compounds are kept!) — perhaps like this or this?
  4. Oh, sorry; I thought you meant [[:ja:食#日本語]] and {{l|ja|食}} were alternative ways of linking to entries! I misunderstood (and still do not understand, ha) that issue. - -sche (discuss) 07:48, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
Hallo noch einmal, bevor ich schlaffe --
Ich sehe auf Deiner Benutzerseite daß Du deutsch sprichst, aber vielleicht ließt Du auch japanisch? Ich weiß gar nicht ob ich diese Romaji auch schreiben soll, aber ich will doch nicht 失礼する wenn Du vielleicht Romaji brauchest. :) -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 08:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
And about the ja wikt and en wikt bits, that was just about contrasting how the en.wikt entry for looks for the on'yomi and kun'yomi versus how the ja.wikt entry looks. The ja entry clearly delineates where the kanji pronunciation ends and the okurigana begin, whereas the en entry doesn't -- which is a bit of a failing. -- Cheers, er, Tschüß, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 08:10, 7 September 2011 (UTC)
I agree with the consensus on these changes to WT:AJA. There are a couple of other questions I want to add:
  • Is there some way we can indicate that an adverb takes the particle -と (-to)? It is so common that perhaps it ought to be in the headword template, but I don't think there's a field for it in ja-pos.
  • I don't have a preference either way but it would be nice if AJA were clear about how to format counters, specifically if they take a hyphen, like -匹, or if they have none. It says "e.g., -本", which looks like 本 plus a hyphen at first glance, but the link itself has no hyphen. At least it should be rewritten for clarity.
  • Speaking of bots, could we make a bot to add or fix hidx? It's completely mechanical and uncontroversial, but hard for newbies to pick up and easy for anyone to forget. I've noticed that there's a lot of variation in how it's used.
Thanks Haplogy 13:35, 9 September 2011 (UTC)
Thanks to Eiríkr for pointing me to this discussion. If no one objects, I'd like to get the ball rolling on changing the な-type adjectives with this change to WT:AJA#Quasi-adjectives:
== Quasi-adjectives ==
The main entry for quasi-adjectives should be in the 'plain' or 'root' form:

 === Adjective ===

E.g. 平安 (heian) has a level 3 section like this:
 === Adjective ===

平安 (hiragana へいあん, romaji heian)

This should be followed by the definition(s), and then the declension table using template {{ja-na}}.

Note that the “plain form” in this case is also a noun. This should not be a problem; just as bet is both a verb and a noun, 平安  is both a noun and an adjective.
Does this look good? (Sorry the formatting is awkward, I wanted it all to be in that grey box thing.) -MichaelLau 01:58, 10 September 2011 (UTC)
Looks good to me. Haplogy 05:19, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I'm fine with this mostly, too, except for one sticking point -- many (most?) 形容動詞 are not nouns at all, such as 静か or でぶでぶ, and cannot be the subject of a sentence. I think 平安 is actually the exception here. With this in mind, I'd rework that last para as follows:
Note that the “plain form” in this case is also a noun for certain words. This should not be a problem; just as bet is both a verb and a noun, 平安  is both a noun and an adjective.
And then there's also the various ways in which they conjugate - some take な and some take の to become adjectives, some take に and others take と to become adverbs - which we need to build into the template (the な・に format is already built in). A few oddballs appear to do both in one way or another, such as 常・恒, for which I can find examples of use as an adjective with both な and の.
Food for thought, anyway. I'm glad this discussion is happening. What would folks say to one of us creating a copy of the current version of WT:AJA, maybe by creating a new page at WT:About_Japanese/Draft or somewhere similar and just copying the content of WT:AJA over, and then we can start collaboratively editing the draft version? -- Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 07:24, 11 September 2011 (UTC)
I made the /draft page. I think there are probably a lot of ways to change this to make it easier to navigate also. For instance, people should know whether they are interested in contributing to classical Japanese, so all those sections on classical Japanese can be extracted and made their own page or section without cluttering up the page for everyone else. -MichaelLau 14:26, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
I made what I think is the minor change of changing [[lemma]]: to {{ja-def|lemma}} to the links under section 3.1 Non-lemma forms. Haplogy 14:46, 12 September 2011 (UTC)
Brilliant, thank you Michael and Haplology! I'm creating the Wiktionary_talk:About_Japanese/Draft page to discuss edits to the draft. -- Cheers, Eiríkr Útlendi | Tala við mig 16:53, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

link to separate characters in the headword[edit]

Wiktionary:Feedback#.E7.AB.AF.E6.9C.AB could be implemented by adding a head= paramter to the Japanece templates, and then setting head=. We should keep the box, because it displays the kanji in a large, legible font, but is there a reason not to also link them in the headword? (Oh, maybe blue/red font is harder to read, especially if one character is blue and the other is red.) - -sche (discuss) 19:41, 10 October 2011 (UTC)

I think it would be more approprate for multipart terms (see my change to ロシア連邦, not for each character (kanji or kana) but that just IMHO. I changed ジェシカ because it looked ugly to me. We do have a kanji box, adding the same in the header would be redundant, again, IMHO. --Anatoli 23:23, 10 October 2011 (UTC)


How should we format words made up of two identical kanji, like 次々? "~々" is the only one you can find outside of dictionaries, hence probably more likely to be searched for. On the other hand, "次次" is the real word, in a sense, and all the dictionaries that I can find list these words as "次次" rather than "次々". I'm leaning toward making "次次" the lemma entry, and listing "次々" as an alternative form using {{alternative form of}}. The link at tsugitsugi would point to 次次. What does everyone else think? Haplology 05:27, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I prefer 次々, as people search for the most common spelling, not the "correct" one. I wouldn’t write 次次, because it just looks wrong. (次次回 jijikai is okay though I prefer 次々回.) If we follow paper dictionaries, we should have つぎつぎ as main entry, but it is not the case here on Wiktionary. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:42, 12 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm with Takasugi-san here that the lemma should be under the most common rendering, 次々 in this case. That said, I think we should also have a 次次 entry, pointing back to 次々, in the interests of completeness and in case anyone does look up the doubled form. -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 17:18, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Fullwidth alphabet letters and digits, and halfwidth katakana[edit]

Atitarev and I had a discussion about fullwidth digits in User talk:Atitarev#Fullwidth digits. As I have explained there, fullwidth digits, namely , , , , , , , , , and , are considered obsolete by the Unicode standard, and I don’t think we should use them for main entries. What do you think? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 10:20, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I certainly don't see much utility in having these, since they're only a typographical mechanism for displaying the Arabic numerals in double-byte fonts. I would just recommend deleting them, except I know we have other WT pages for single characters. Maybe this is something to bring up in the WT:Beer parlor? -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 14:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
The ten character pages I listed above are all right, because they explain Unicode information. What Atitarev and I talked about is which is good for the main entry of 十日 written with Arabic numerals, the halfwidth 10日 or the fullwidth 10日. I think we should use the former naturally. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:25, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Ah, I'm with you now. I agree that half-width (i.e. single-byte) numerals should be used instead of full-width (i.e. double-byte). -- Eiríkr ÚtlendiTala við mig 19:27, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
If display is a concern, as Anatoli suggests, it is possible to put text like "10日" in a template that uses an appropriately monospace font, just as Hebrew text is put into a template so that it can be displayed in an appropriately legible font. - -sche (discuss) 18:37, 16 March 2012 (UTC)
Talk:CD is related to this issue. A discussion archived on that page reached the decision that Japanese words which are spelt in Latin script should be spelt in "regular" Latin letters, not in fullwidth ones, hence the Japanese word for a compact disc is CD, not CD. - -sche (discuss) 00:58, 28 July 2013 (UTC)

On ja-kanjitab[edit]

Please see & comment: Template talk:ja-kanjitab#Links to Translingual. Thanks! --Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 12:44, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Alternative readings header[edit]

There are several entries in the category Category:Entries with non-standard headers with the header "Alternative readings". Should the header be changed, or is that header OK (in which case, remove the cleanup template and inform Liliana). - -sche (discuss) 21:49, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

See also [1], ひょく, びょう, byō. - -sche (discuss) 01:13, 2 October 2012 (UTC)

Romaji entries[edit]

Does anyone object to changing romaji entries as per Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/February#Stripping_extra_info_from_Japanese_romaji?



# {{ja-def|隆と}} stylishly
# {{ja-def|リュート}} a lute {{gloss|the musical instrument}}

--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:16, 27 February 2013 (UTC)

Canned usage note for katakana in science[edit]

How would everyone feel about a template like {{kata-bio}} that goes something like this?

As with all names of plants and animals, the katakana form of this term is always preferred in scientific contexts.

Feel free to reword this.

I think a note like this would be appropriate for any entry which is the name of a plant or animal. Since it's the same message each time, it would be nice to have it written in the best possible way, both for substance and for style. As for substance, I'm not sure if medical doctors treat katakana the same way--please add details if you know. There is a cluster of entries from long ago which have a similar usage note which was evidently copy-pasted between them (and its style could have been improved in my opinion.) --Haplology (talk) 03:19, 27 March 2013 (UTC)

  • A late reply: we do have {{U:ja:biology}}. This generates content like the following:

As with many terms that name organisms, this term is often spelled in katakana, especially in biological contexts.

... or ...

As with many terms that name organisms, this term is often spelled in katakana, especially in biological contexts, as サンプル.

HTH! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 19:58, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Ordering etym sections in multi-etym JA entries[edit]

Hello anyone watching this page. I've recently found myself working on more JA entries with multiple etym sections, giving rise to the question of how to order the different sections.

  • For entries with both kun'yomi and on'yomi, which should come first?
⇒ My sense is that maybe on'yomi should come first, since these are often listed first in JA kanji dictionaries. On the other hand, on'yomi are essentially borrowings from Chinese (for the most part), so perhaps the kun'yomi should come first as the native Japanese derivations?
  • Among the on'yomi etyms, which should come first?
⇒ My thought here is chronological. If we have goon, that comes first, then kan'on, then tōon, then sōon.
  • Among the kun'yomi etyms, which should come first?
⇒ Here, I'm less certain.
  • One instinct is to also list these chronologically, starting from the oldest forms. See the kun'yomi etyms in this version of the 仮名 entry for one example. The oldest reading karina is listed first, then the derived kanna reading, then the derived kana reading.
  • But then again, perhaps we should start with the most common reading?
    And if we start with the most common, do we list the rest in order of most-used?
    Or do we list the rest chronologically?

I'm interested in any constructive feedback. Our current state is basically willy-nilly, which is starting to bother me. A more standard policy would be preferable. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 20:08, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Haplology, TAKASUGI Shinji, Wyang, エリック・キィ, Tsukuyone, Nibiko, Umbreon126, Kc kennylau Ping!

(Ping didn't work). In my opinion, most common senses and readings should come first, regardless of yomi. I personally hate the chronological order, which causes problems with translations, for example @truth. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:47, 13 March 2015 (UTC)
(Ping absolutely didn't work) I agree with Anatoli. —suzukaze (tc) 04:28, 28 August 2016 (UTC)
@Eirikr: you probably know now, but anyway this is important: you must write your signature in order for ping to work (no signature). — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:04, 11 March 2018 (UTC)


has been non-existent for just under 10 years now. I think this page needs an overhaul. —suzukaze (tc) 10:28, 22 January 2017 (UTC)

User who merits blocking / nuking on sight[edit]

See Talk:御御籤#RFC discussion: April 2014.

Context-dependent sort key[edit]

@Atitarev, Eirikr, Haplology, Suzukaze-c: I proposed a new sort key function in meta:2017 Community Wishlist Survey/Wiktionary#Context-dependent sort key, with no reaction yet. It will be easier to apply different sort keys for Japanese and Chinese entries in the same page. I’m not sure how English Wiktionary handles conflicting sort keys, though. What do you guys think? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 09:46, 18 November 2017 (UTC)

I think it is a good idea. I think it could also cut down on redundant module calls (@Erutuon once mentioned that it was silly how Module:vi-sortkey is executed multiple times for a single entry, IIRC). —suzukaze (tc) 09:50, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Some time ago, when I was considering posting a request on Phabricator for my sorting idea, I encountered a request that was already up and someone was working on it. I'll have to dig it up. It was similar to this ("Allow collation to be specified per category"). Aha, it's here ("Support collation by a certain locale (sorting order of characters)"). Has a lot of technical discussion, which I skimmed at the time.
Among the ideas I recall was having multiple sortkeys connected to languages on each page, and each category has some magic word that determines which language's sortkey it should use, or which language's sort order. I think there was something about using functions created by Unicode to create language-specific sortkeys or to implement sort orders in some fashion. I might be misremembering stuff. The task is now closed, whatever that means.
Anyway, I think the idea of tying categories to specific languages in the server and using multiple sortkeys or server-implemented sort orders sounds like it would solve the problem of CJKV on a single page. You could use a {{DEFAULTSORT:}} type magic word, but it would specify sorting for a specific language's categories, or leave it to the server. I wonder if they're working on that. — Eru·tuon 10:27, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: I think it's a good idea. Please note that Chinese entries are no longer sorted by pinyin (which is only relevant to Mandarin, anyway) but by radicals. User:Wyang may tell you more about how sorting is done in Module:zh and Module:zh/data/sortkey. I believe language-specific sorting can be done inside Wiktionary by headword modules, which is already the case for Chinese and various other languages, which require sorting different from default but I'm not a Lua guru. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:58, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Chinese sorting is now done automatically by Module:zh-sortkey. Japanese could definitely benefit from a sorting cleanup - it's silly to enter the same sortkey multiple times. If the SECTIONSORT functionality (which gives a sortkey for subsequent text until the next SECTIONSORT is encountered) were to be actualised, it may be technically feasible for the SECTIONSORT keys to be generated automatically, every time the {{ja-pron}} template is called, thus leaving no trace of the sortkey in the entry code at all and making the sorting even more intelligent. Wyang (talk) 12:25, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
I read the post finally. I don't think sortkeys should be tied to sections. For instance, the Chinese section often contains categories for many Chinese varieties in addition to (written) Chinese. Each variety needs a different sortkey, and usually there are multiple categories for a single Chinese variety: Mandarin lemmas and Mandarin nouns in , for instance. A SECTIONSORT would only be able to give one sortkey. So, for example, if SECTIONSORT were the radical-stroke sortkey used in Chinese categories, the Chinese categories would not need manual sortkeys, but the categories for Mandarin, Wu, Cantonese, Min Nan, and so on would.
What would work well for Chinese sections is to tie sortkeys and categories to language codes. That is, each language in a page gets a sortkey, and the category looks for the sortkey of a particular language and uses it. (Sortkeys could still be specified manually for an individual category, of course.) Then, the Mandarin categories could use pinyin sortkeys, Chinese categories use radical-stroke sortkeys, and so on, and each of these could be specified only once on the page. This would require two magic words: a language-specific DEFAULTSORT-type magic word in the entry, and a magic word in the category page (which could be added automatically by Module:category tree) specifying which language's sortkey the category should use, if it is present. So to make up names for the magic words, the entry could contain {{LANGSORT:cmn|pinyin}} and {{LANGSORT:zh|radical stroke}}, and then the Mandarin categories could contain {{SORTLANG:cmn}} and the Chinese categories {{SORTLANG:zh}} to tell the server to use the cmn or the zh sortkey respectively. — Eru·tuon 22:54, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
The Chinese situation is kind of abnormal though. I think that Chinese+radical could be the section default, and Mandarin/Cantonese, etc. could have classic manual sortkeys in the [[Category:_______ lemmas|_______]] style. —suzukaze (tc) 23:05, 18 November 2017 (UTC)
Well, yes. That's what {{zh-pron}} currently does. My more theoretical concern is that really sortkeys pertain to categories, not to sections. Sections don't have sortkeys; they have a language to which most categories used in the section pertain. But more practically, there are also categories that are not specific to the language and perhaps shouldn't use a language-specific sortkey (Tea room). — Eru·tuon 00:21, 19 November 2017 (UTC)
Many years ago, I posted somewhere at a Meta site regarding the unusability of sortkey functionality for Japanese entries, inasmuch as 1) a single Japanese entry spelling often needs multiple sortings based on different phonetic realizations, and 2) at the time (and I suspect still) the Mediawiki software handled multiple sortkeys for a single category specification on a single page by ignoring all but the last sortkey. My post (ah, here it is) got no reply at all. That was 5.5 years ago. ご参考まで. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:16, 20 November 2017 (UTC)
Thank you. Meta is not a popular place for discussion. As you point out, it is good if multiple sort keys are possible for Japanese (ex. fr:Catégorie:Homographes non homophones en japonais). Is there any language that needs multiple sort keys other than Japanese? Some Chinese characters can be categorized in more than one radical, depending on dictionaries. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:12, 22 November 2017 (UTC)

Middle Japanese[edit]

Which language code do I give to words marked as "Middle Japanese" in literature? Crom daba (talk) 18:49, 15 December 2017 (UTC)

@Crom daba: Unfortunately, no such language code exists, at least in the ISO standard. There's OJP for Old Japanese, usually regarded as ending around 800 CE or so, and then there's JA for everything after that -- which is an awfully big bucket. I'm open to the creation of such a code. Middle Japanese, sometimes a.k.a. Classical Japanese, is different enough from the modern language to warrant different treatment here -- differing usage, conjugation patterns, etc. That said, any such initiative should probably get hashed out in the Beer Parlor first. :) ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:14, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
I just want to know the proper way (the wiktionary way) to mention the Japanese words given here (if you could find it in its original script I would be very thankful), I'm not suggesting to introduce Middle Japanese we don't have a need for it. Crom daba (talk) 00:26, 16 December 2017 (UTC)
ふるき. —suzukaze (tc) 00:33, 16 December 2017 (UTC)

Conjugation table[edit]

I always find those Japanese conjugation tables proscriptive and dated. For example, in a situation where English speakers would use a bare imperative in a friendly manner, Japanese speakers will use a non-polite requestive (して, 食べて, etc.) or a non-polite “advisory” imperative (しな, 食べな, etc.) but you don’t see them anywhere. Similarly, before n very often becomes such as 分かんない but you see only 分からない.

I have created a list of forms we should have in a conjugation table: Wiktionary talk:About Japanese/Conjugation. What do you think? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 12:58, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

I completely support this. —suzukaze (tc) 05:08, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, Suzukaze-c. @Atitarev, Eirikr, Haplology, Wyang, エリック・キィ: what do you think of modernizing Japanese conjugation tables? The list of forms must reflect community opinions as much as possible. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:23, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji I generally support your idea, but we can put a qualifier denoting dated, colloquial, etc. in each cell. I have felt a gap between a model Japanese and what I, as one of the native Japanese speakers, actually speak, hear and see today!--エリック・キィ (talk) 15:52, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji I agree with Eryk: I generally support this idea, with some adjustments -- more contextual data as above, and some terminology tweaks. For instance, the 連用形 in the sample tables is listed as the "Conjunctive", whereas I learned the 連用形 as the "continuative", and the て-form as the "conjunctive". I also don't understand how this will look in the end -- is the sample page intended for inclusion as-is on the WT:AJA page? Or will the relevant rows be extracted and recombined in a conjugation table specific to each verb form (such as, all the rows for 書く will be recombined into a single table, and that will go on the 書く page)? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:26, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Wow, great job, Shinji. ぬ and ねえ forms are included. Is it worth to include ず forms as well? Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 20:50, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr: That was just an error, and I fixed it. Everyone can modify Wiktionary talk:About Japanese/Conjugation freely. I’d like to show the relevant forms in each verb entry and the entire table in Wiktionary:About Japanese and Appendix:Japanese verbs. Layout is to be discussed.
@Atitarev ず is really archaic as a sentence-final form, but ずに is still common in literary Japanese. We can show both or only the latter. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I think both show up often enough to merit inclusion. I also bump into -ざる endings in fixed phrases, such as -ざるを得ない, that kind of thing. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Support. Wyang (talk) 01:34, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, support and include both ず and ずに forms with proper labels. Is ねえ really "vulgar" or sloppy/dialectal or something else? :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 02:06, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
There are many conservative people who don’t like the adjective-final /eː/ especially if the speaker is a woman. [2]TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:39, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree. It's interesting that some mispronunciations (might be a wrong word here) in Japanese make words sound impolite or even vulgar. てめぇ (temē) must sound much worse than てまえ (temae). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:56, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
(I really, really like this table. I need to express my support a second time. —Suzukaze-c 09:26, 25 January 2019 (UTC))


Some monolingual Japanese dictionaries include the so-called 字音語素 or 字音語の造語成分 along with words. The current practice on the wiki seems to list the definitions and compounds of single kanji in the "Kanji" section, but there seems to be currently no standard way to indicate which pronunciations apply to which definitions for cases like (アク・オ) or (ラク・ガク). Also, when there is only one etymology, the practice of putting "Kanji" and "Alternative forms", "Pronunciation", "Noun" headers on the same L3 level seems a little odd to me. Any ideas on how 字音語素 should be presented? --Dine2016 (talk) 04:03, 27 April 2018 (UTC)

It's been solved - use the Affix POS. --Dine2016 (talk) 16:42, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

Japanese grammar terminology[edit]

Do you think we need to unify the terminology of Japanese grammar? For example, 未然形 is translated as “irrealis or incomplete form” in running text but “imperfective” in the verb conjugation table. And 五段活用 is “godan” in the verb headword-line but “type 1” in the category name (though it's “Group I” in textbooks like Minna no Nihongo). Personally, I prefer terms like “consonant-stem”, “vowel-stem”, “infinitive” or “gerund” over traditional grammar (aka Hashimoto grammar or school grammar) terms like “five-grade”, “monograde”, “continuative form” or “te form”, but anything that can be settled on is OK.

I suggest creating a template called {{ja-term}} and use it for grammatical terms. For example, {{ja-term|infinitive}} could display “infinitive”.

(Notifying Eirikr, Wyang, TAKASUGI Shinji, Nibiko, Atitarev, Suzukaze-c, Poketalker, Cnilep, Britannic124, Fumiko Take, Nardog, Marlin Setia1, AstroVulpes, Tsukuyone, Aogaeru4): --Dine2016 (talk) 16:42, 7 October 2018 (UTC)

(I'm glad that I have two hands.) On the one hand, I absolutely agree that some consistent set of labels is desirable. On the other hand, I don't think there is a consistent and widely adopted set of labels, either across Japanese sources or English-medium Japanese grammars. I guess my bottom line is that I would be happy to have a set of labels for use in Wiktionary. Cnilep (talk) 23:41, 7 October 2018 (UTC)
  • From what I've seen, the larger part of the inconsistency is due to so many different writers using their own set of labels. This is likely due to the way that Japanese grammar does not conform well to English-language labels. For instance, I quite dislike either label gerund or infinitive, presumably mentioned above in reference to the 連用形 (ren'yōkei), as both English-language labels point to grammatical constructs that don't quite exist in Japanese, while also failing to express the function of the actual form in Japanese. The label "gerund" in English would fit for utterances such as "I like walking", whereas the same statement in Japanese -- 歩くのが好き -- doesn't use the ren'yōkei at all, but rather the dictionary or plain form (or what have you). Meanwhile, although the label "infinitive" would fit a statement such as "I like to walk", which then also broadly fits the Japanese 歩くのが好き and uses the dictionary or plain form in both languages, the Japanese again doesn't use the ren'yōkei.
There's also the problem of historical context. Modern grammars describing classical and older Japanese generally call the -e- verb stems the 已然形 (izenkei), often glossed as realis in contrast to the irrealis or 未然形 (mizenkei). However, the modern language uses this form differently, leading to a change in labels even in Japanese, where the -e- verb stems are instead called the 仮定形 (kateikei).
I mostly agree with Cnilep [except that I have seldom run into divergent labels in Japanese-language grammars, aside from historical terms such as 既然言 (kizengen) or 将然言 (shōzengen)]. We should coordinate on a standardized set of labels, and also make sure to build in some way for users accustomed to other common labels to find out how our labels correspond to theirs. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:33, 8 October 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr: Thanks for your reply. I currently have copies of three Japanese grammars by western linguists – A Reference Grammar of Japanese by Samuel E. Martin, A History of the Japanese Language by Bjarke Frellesvig, and A Descriptive Grammar of Early Old Japanese Prose by John R. Bentley – all of which use the labels “infinitive” and “gerund”. I have no objections to calling them “continuative” and “conjunctive”, though. What do you think of the other names of modern verb forms in Frellesvig (2010)?
Nonpast kaku
Past kaita
Volitional kakoo
Imperative kake
(Past conjectural) (kaitaroo)
Infinitive kaki
Gerund kaite
Conditional-1 kaitara
Representative kaitari
Conditional-2 kaitewa
Provisional kakeba
Concessive kaitemo
Note: I agree that the conditional-2 (kaitewa) and the concessive (kaitemo) should be removed and treated as kaite + wa/mo, which is also how Martin (1975) treats them. By the way, what about renaming the conditional(-1) and the provisional as something like “-tara conditional” and “-ba conditional”?
One reason I don't like the traditional description of Japanese grammar is its paradigm of verbs, which is unsuitable for Modern Japanese. It unnecessarily keeps the distinction between 終止形 and 連体形, while failing to point out the present/future tense they have acquired due to the rise of past -ta (from stative -tar-). The variant of 未然形 which ends in オ段 is also a back-formation, an artifact of writing, rather than a true stem. Another disadvantage of traditional grammar is the segmentation of verbs like 読む and 食べる into よ・む and た・べる; it is better to posit stems such as yom- and tabe-, respectively. (Can 二段 verbs like 尋ぬ be described as varying between tadune- and tadunu-?) For this reason, I still prefer “linguistic” terms such as “(regular) consonant-stem” over “five-grade”, which is based on a clumsy analysis of verb forms hindered by the moraic orthography. Another reason I don't like traditional Japanese grammar is its classification of 付属語. For example, it lumps から・と and て・ば both as 接続助詞, while romanization will show their difference: yonda kara and yomu to, vs yonde and yomeba. --Dine2016 (talk) 16:11, 9 October 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr I found this paper: 日本語教育の文法体系と寺村秀夫 : 活用の場合, which states that:

Hypothetical (Provisional) (kak-eba, mi-reba など)
Hypothetical (Conditional) (kaitara, mi-tara など)
Participial (Infinitive) (kak-i, mi-ø など)
Participial (Gerund) (kaite, mi-te など)
Participial (Alternative) (kaitari, mi-tari など)

It seems that the terms "infinitive" and "gerund" are indeed in use, and the distinction between "provisional" and "conditional" is established, in English scholarship. On the other hand, the same paper states that

なお、寺村自身が編纂にかかわった Basic Japanese(大阪外国語大学、1967)においては、Conjunctive form(連用形)が活用形として導入されており、[...]

This is also the terminology used in Bentley (2001), in which the six "forms" in traditional grammar are listed as imperfect, conjunctive, conclusive, attributive, evidential, and imperative. (From a western point of view, it's incorrect to call them "forms": the mizenkei is a stem, and the ren'yōkei is either an inflected form or a stem depending on how it is used. Also 書かない should be considered one words instead of two, as shown by romanization.) --Dine2016 (talk) 03:35, 12 October 2018 (UTC)

What do you mean by evidential? In linguistics evidential is a totally different thing (SIL). The six traditional “forms” (mizen, ren’yō, shūshi, rentai, katei/izen, meirei) can’t explain modern Japanese morphology well and it is misleading to treat mizen and katei as real forms. Traditional Japanese grammarians tried to explain Ancient Japanese and Modern Japanese in a unified frame because of diglossia at that time, but now let’s just make it clear that they are two different languages. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 22:53, 12 October 2018 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: Thanks for your reply. “Evidential” is the label for the izenkei in Bentley (2001):

The traditional label for the evidential literally means ‘already thus’ (izenkei), or what can be translated as the perfective (the state of completion). This label is misleading, and since this conjugation usually implies evidence of a condition, a provision, or a concession (Martin 1988:229, 556-7, 785), I have chosen the label ‘evidential’.

A History of the Japanese Language by Bjarke Frellesvig uses the label “exclamatory” for the same form, and A Reference Grammar of Japanese by Samuel E. Martin uses “literary concessive” for the same form optionally suffixed with -do.
By the way, I totally agree that the traditional analysis of Japanese grammar (aka Hashimoto grammar or school grammar) is unsuitable for Modern Japanese. That is why I suggest a clean break from traditional grammar terms like “irrealis”, “continuative” and “conjunctive”. --Dine2016 (talk) 00:48, 13 October 2018 (UTC)
In a discussion above (#Conjugation table) I have listed up almost all the forms in Modern Japanese in Wiktionary talk:About Japanese/Conjugation. They need to be properly named. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:13, 13 October 2018 (UTC)

Old Japanese[edit]

Please join in the discussion at Wiktionary talk:About Old Japanese. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:27, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Japanese linking template[edit]

Discussion moved from User talk:Suzukaze-c.

Hi. I'm considering making a Japanese counterpart of {{zh-l}}. Which format do you think would be better?

太陽 / たいよう (taiyō, “sun”) and われ / / (ware, “I; me”)


太陽たいよう (taiyō, “sun”) and われ (ware, “I; me”)


太陽 (たいよう, taiyō, “sun”) and われ (, , ware, “I; me”)

--Dine2016 (talk) 12:37, 8 February 2019 (UTC)

I personally like the third one. It's also similar to {{ko-l}} and {{vi-l}}. —Suzukaze-c 16:01, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
Thanks. Given that Eirikr has been inactive for a while, what additional parameters do you think will be helpful besides |tr=, |gloss= and |lit= and |note=? I have once seen the elaborate format (ao, historically awo) in etymology sections, which suggests the new format あお (, ao, historically あを, awo), but I'm not sure whether such a format is desirable. Looking at the English etymologies on the wiki, it seems that Old English, Middle English and modern English are never lumped together. A compound formed in Old English is treated as “From Middle English ab, from Old English αβ, from α + β. Surface analysis A + B.” and never “From A (historically α) + B (historically β)” or anachronistically “From A + B”. Given that Old, Middle and modern Japanese have different orthography, I think Japanese should be handled in the same way. --Dine2016 (talk) 04:06, 9 February 2019 (UTC)
I agree with your ideas. —Suzukaze-c 03:04, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
Same here. I agree that orthography for Middle and Old Japanese has to be separated. Take a look at Category:Middle Vietnamese lemmas. By the way, good job on the new {{ja-see-kango}}. KevinUp (talk) 12:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@Dine2016 I prefer the third one as well. So will this be implemented to {{ja-l}} or another separate template? User:Poketalker has been using {{m|ja|漢字|tr=kanji}} for some time so maybe we can have {{ja-m|漢字|かんじ|[[gloss]]}} instead. Not sure if this is going to break {{ja-l}} because so many combinations are possible for that template. Maybe the gloss can be entered using |gloss= in {{ja-l}} ? KevinUp (talk) 08:01, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@KevinUp: Thanks for the reply. My suggestion is to extend {{ja-l}} in a way that does not break existing usages, and make a {{ja-lx}} which works like {{zh-l}}. The former template only formats its arguments and generates nothing else, while the latter template can support auto-completion such as {{ja-lx|太陽}}太陽 (たいよう, taiyō). The latter would be very tricky to implement so I'll probably only do the former I suggest doing the former first. --Dine2016 (talk) 08:48, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@Dine2016: Sounds good to me. Some possible combinations for the new format that I could think of (to verify its output):
{{ja-l|太陽|たいよう|[[sun]]}}太陽 (たいよう)
{{ja-l|太陽|たいよう|taiyō|[[sun]]}}太陽 (たいよう, ​taiyō)
{{ja-l|太陽|たいよう|gloss=[[sun]]}}太陽 (たいよう)
{{ja-l|太陽|たいよう|tr=taiyō|[[sun]]}}太陽 (たいよう, ​sun)
{{ja-l|太陽|たいよう|tr=taiyō|gloss=[[sun]]}}太陽 (たいよう)
{{ja-l|太陽|たいよう|tr=taiyō||[[sun]]}}太陽 (たいよう)
Legacy usage for comparison:
{{ja-l|太陽|たいよう}}太陽 (たいよう)
{{ja-l|太陽|taiyō}}太陽 (taiyō)
Perhaps this conversation ought to be moved to Template talk:ja-l. KevinUp (talk) 12:25, 13 February 2019 (UTC)
@Dine2016, KevinUp: I wrote Module:User:Suzukaze-c/jpx-links instead of doing other important things —Suzukaze-c 05:14, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
Good job on the template. For the CSS part, I hope we can make the Japanese script in running text a little bigger (but not too big like the headwords), and use Meiryo instead of MS PGothic on Windows, as the former is optimized for ClearType while the latter embeds bitmaps and does not look good. I remember there is a way to reduce the vertical space of Meiryo, which is used on some Vocaloid-related wikis on Wikia.
Unfortunately, I've lost interest in Japanese once I realized there was no way to eliminate all duplication of information in the source code of Japanese entries. The two “final bosses” which made it impossible, I think, would be: (1) the repetition of the reading in headword templates and (2) the repetition of the inflection type in the headword template and the inflection table. Chinese was able to eliminate the major repetitions because Unified Chinese moved the romanizations to the pronunciation template and there was no inflection. Japanese was not so lucky (although we can follow the French Wiktionary's handling of inflection to eliminate the second problem). --Dine2016 (talk) 11:02, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
re: CSS: See also User:Suzukaze-c/sandbox#2, I guess. Maybe I should ask for interface administrator rights? Perhaps we could remove the inline CSS from {{ja-r}} and {{ja-usex}} as well. —Suzukaze-c 17:44, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
re: vocaloid wikia: probably me lmao which one
re: repetition: I have wondered if allowing global variables (currently not allowed) would help with this sort of problem. —Suzukaze-c 17:28, 21 February 2019 (UTC)
re: vocaloid wikia: ah, sorry, it was an ugly hack. --Dine2016 (talk) 07:55, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
yeah but it's my ugly hack ;) —Suzukaze-c 08:07, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
ah sorry again (*/ω\*) seldom 逛英語ACG圈
I wonder if Unified Japanese could justify omitting (1) the romanizations in headword templates and (2) the inflection tables. --Dine2016 (talk) 09:51, 26 February 2019 (UTC)
it's totally an ugly hack, i'm just teasing you (´ε` )
Your idea reminds me that Module:th-headword reads the content of an entry's own page. Maybe that could be a source of inspiration.
Also, what do you think of User:Suzukaze-c/p/ja#Japanese {entry format reform} as my idea of "unified Japanese"? (There's certainly a lot of redundancy regarding definitions and such, but I don't think things would be any better if we split ja.) —Suzukaze-c 04:32, 27 February 2019 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c I just discovered an example of “same kanji, same modern kana, different historical kana”: 法律 (ほうりつ < はふりつ, hōritsu < fafuritu, ほうりつ < ほふりつ, hōritsu < fofuritu). Hope it's useful. --Dine2016 (talk) 16:39, 4 March 2019 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c Does your template support the alternative format {{jpx-m|変化:へんか}} in addition to {{jpx-m|変化|へんか}}? If this is supported, we can
  • code templates like {{ja-syn}} and {{ja-synonym}} in the simplest way ({{jpx-m|{{{1}}}}}), and
  • use them like {{ja-syn|変わる:かわる|変化:へんか|チェンジ}} and {{ja-synonym|変化:へんか|[[change]]}}
Furthermore, if automatical fetching of the reading is implemented so that {{ja-m|変化}} yields 変化 (へんか, henka), we can further
to get the same results. --Dine2016 (talk) 05:39, 6 March 2019 (UTC)

re: unified Japanese[edit]

I think Etymologies 1–3 could be grouped like

Etymology 1

ける (transitive) // no need of romaji or conjugation type as it changes over time, one of the advantages of unified Japanese :)

Inflected forms of ける [godan] in Modern Japanese
Inflection Hiragana Romanization
Basic stem ker-
a- stem (未然形*) けら kera-
onbin stem (音便形) けっ keQ-
e- stem (仮定形*) けれ kere-
Finite forms
Nonpast (終止形*/連体形*/基本形/ル形) ける keru
Past (過去形/タ形) けった ketta
Volitional (意向形/推量形) けろう kerō
Imperative (命令形*) けれ kere
Non-finite forms
Infinitive (連用形*) けり keri
Gerund (て形) けって kette
Conditional けったら kettara
Representative けったり kettari
Provisional (ば形/条件形) ければ kereba
Key constructions
Passive (受身) けられる (kerareru, stem ker-are-, ichidan conjugation)
文法体系はおおむね Frellesvig (2010) に従う
* 学校文法における活用形
Inflected forms of ける [shimo ichidan] in Late Middle Japanese
Inflection Phonemic
Basic stem (未然形*/連用形*) ke-
e- stem (已然形*) kere-
Finite forms
Nonpast (終止形*/連体形*) keru
Past keta
Intentional kyoozuru
Volitional kyoo
Past conjectural ketarɔɔ
Imperative (命令形*) kei ~ keyo
Non-finite forms
Infinitive ke
Gerund kete
Conditional keba (~ ketewa)
Provisional kereba
Concessive keredomo ~ ketemo
Past conditional ketara(ba)
Past provisional ketareba
Past concessive ketaredomo
Intentional provisional kyoozureba
Intentional concessive kyoozuredomo
Key constructions
文法体系はおおむね Frellesvig (2010) に従う
* 学校文法における活用形
Inflected forms of ける [shimo ichidan] in Early Middle Japanese

--Dine2016 (talk) 09:47, 27 February 2019 (UTC)

Intriguing. I like how adding a new conjugation table for older stages is reminiscent of our (very convenient) current approach for Chinese (adding pronunciation to {{zh-pron}}). Would we still use romaji for historical forms in etymology sections? —Suzukaze-c 06:05, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
Um… if you're citing a word in a specific stage of the language, a transcription appropriate to the stage can be added. For example, the topic marker of Old Japanese is (pa), the one of Early Middle Japanese is (fa), and the ones of Late Middle Japanese and Modern Japanese is (wa). On the other hand, if the stage is unknown, you can just use the kana spelling and refer to the topic marker as , which is similar to how you cite Chinese characters rather than words using {{zh-l|*...}}. In the latter situation, you sometimes need to choose between old and new orthography (あを vs あお), or classical and modern forms (あり vs ある), but printed dictionaries have the same problem.
For synonym sections, maybe we can group the words by stage, effectively constituting a historical thesaurus like the 三省堂 現代語古語類語辞典 and the Historical Thesaurus of English? --Dine2016 (talk) 10:46, 1 March 2019 (UTC)
By developed from Dine2016's idea I made blueprint of the new template.
In this draft, phonetic Japanese texts are spelled in Katakana following the academic custom about Japanese phonology; there are downsteps as well as upsteps for the some dialects and old variations; difference between the nasal and stop consonants on ガ行 exists as the difference between the dialects, and /ŋ/ is indicated in the 半濁点 (゜) over the letters; as the examples of romanised spellings of Middle Japanese, Nippo Jisho is given. Feel free to use this as a tentative plan.--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 10:38, 10 April 2019 (UTC)
@荒巻モロゾフ: Very nice. How do you think data should be input? (what would the wikitext/template syntax look like?) —Suzukaze-c 05:16, 12 April 2019 (UTC)
It's desirable to input IPA directly, because diversity of the Japanese dialectal phonology is too large to output automatically. However regarding the phonetic katakana with accent annotation, it's hard to write html codes directly. From this paper[3], I picked up a symbolic system that can be used for conversion by the template.
regend example
[ Upstep between the moras ア[ア
[[ Rising in the next mora [[ア
] Downstep between the moras ア]ア
]] Falling in the previous mora ア]]
! Loose descent between the moras without downstep ア!ア
% Loose ascent between the moras without upstep ア%ア
/ꜜhàrû ꜜnàtté núkúnátté kíꜜtàkàrà ꜜkjǒːꜜwà ꜜùmí íkóká/
]ハ%ル]] ]ナッ%テ %ヌクナッテ %キ]タカラ ]キョ%ー]ワ ]ウ%ミ %イコカ
 ナッ ヌクナッテ タカラ キョワ  イコカ
 (はる)なって (ぬく)なって ()たから (きょ) () (うみ) ()こか。
Haru natte nuku natte kita kara kyō wa umi iko ka.
As it becames spring and is getting warmer, let's go to the sea today.
Could you make a conversion program from this?--荒巻モロゾフ (talk) 10:21, 23 April 2019 (UTC)

Sino-Japanese etymologies[edit]

There're currently several ways to express Sino-Japanese etymologies:

This may be unified to the general form(s), served via a single template:

-- 22:01, 8 April 2019 (UTC)

Some thoughts.
  • Most on'yomi terms in Japanese are old borrowings from Middle Chinese, hence the ltc language code.
  • Some terms were borrowed from modern Chinese.
→ Ideally, these should explicitly state which variety they came from -- Mandarin (cmn), Cantonese (yue), etc.
That said, some terms only borrowed the spelling from Chinese and use the Japanese (though Chinese-derived) on'yomi. These might account for some of the zh instances.
  • Some entries haven't been updated in many years, which is where most (perhaps all?) of the vague zhx comes from.
Personally, I think it's useful to include the Middle Chinese reading to show where things started from, and then also show the phonological changes after the term arrived in Japanese. For instance, 長#Etymology_1 shows how this started as Middle Chinese /ʈɨɐŋX/, becoming in turn Japanese /tjau//t͡ɕjau//t͡ɕɔː//t͡ɕoː/. This kind of phonological development is part of the history of the term and can be quite interesting, showing how the sounds of Chinese and Japanese have diverged over time.
There are also not a few Japanese terms that originated in Middle Chinese with one sense, and then got repurposed during the Meiji period with a different or altered sense. Such terms include 世界, 社会, 自由, etc. I'm not sure if that class of terms would fit into the proposed template? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:43, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
@Eirikr: Yes, thanks, please take a look at 再見, which has two etymologies, both Chinese- Middle Chinese and modern Mandarin. The modern Mandarin might need citations :) Thanks to User:Justinrleung for improving. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:15, 9 April 2019 (UTC)
Note this section only concerns words using regular on’yomi, not including things like 再見#Etymology_2.-- 12:46, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Why is there a pronoun header?[edit]

What's the point in having it? They act fully like any other noun or am I missing something? Korn [kʰũːɘ̃n] (talk) 08:59, 9 April 2019 (UTC)

Meh. Japanese sources also list 代名詞. As another example of distinctions made by native speakers, there's nothing particular about よう's grammatical functioning to set it apart from a 形容動詞, but Japanese sources consistently list it as a 助動詞. Having the "pronoun" label is also arguably useful for cross-language comparisons; without it, someone's bound to claim that Japanese "doesn't have pronouns", which is silly. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:58, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Romanization question[edit]

How to romanized the following terms:

  • / 手の平 (てのひら) - te no hira or tenohira?
  • 言の葉 (ことのは) - koto no ha or kotonoha?

Marlin Setia1 (talk) 11:24, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

My preference and personal practice is with spaces. By comparison, one doesn't write flatofone'shand. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:59, 11 April 2019 (UTC)