Template talk:zh-new

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@Wyang. Can you add Japanese on'yomi while you're at it? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:41, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

RE: "always check the correctness of the simp-trad two-way conversion". Perhaps a suggestion to start with traditional, rather than simplified will eliminate 99% of conversion errors? Will this template handle IPA for erhua correctly or is it too hard? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:44, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
1) OK, but how should ja-kanjitab be produced? Not character-by-character, just the entire hiragana reading?
2) The converter goes trad->simp, and is thus less prone to errors. However there is always the possibility of misconversions with simplified titles.
3) Not currently enabled. It will require another function and should be fairly easy to do. Wyang (talk) 00:54, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Re: 1) I meant this to be a manual parameter, like "on'yomi=がく|romaji=gaku", multiple reading separated by commas. Re: 3) Looking forward to the erhua function. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:03, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
What about multi-character words? eg. 求婚 - きゅうこん. Should it produce
? What about the suru verb in that entry? Wyang (talk) 01:11, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
I don't exactly know the purpose of the template. That's for Mandarin entries, right? Do you intend to show Japanese, Korean and Vietnamese cognates or is this to generate entries in these languages? If the latter, then the template is not called correctly. Multi-character terms it should display in full, so for 求婚 = "on'yomi=きゅうこん|romaji=kyūkon", IMHO. I don't understand your question about "suru verbs" since I don't know exactly what you intend to do with this template. BTW, Wiktionary:Requests_for_moves,_mergers_and_splits#Module:zh_to_Module:cmn-common_and_Module:Hani-common (pls don't get too emotional, just state your reasons there!). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:17, 16 January 2014 (UTC)
Also, re: {{ja-kanjitab}} it's best to ask Haplology (talkcontribs). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:22, 16 January 2014 (UTC)

Parts of speech abbreviations[edit]

@User:Wyang, could you please list part of speech abbreviations the template works with. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:14, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Please see Module:zh#postitle and #poshead. You can add more to that list. Wyang (talk) 03:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll take a look. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:52, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Pronunciation issues and requests[edit]

I'm going to add entries to Category:Requests for pronunciation (Mandarin) when there seems to be a problem generating correct IPA, including Category:Mandarin erhua terms, such as 带儿. Something didn't work well with 教育部, I think. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:17, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Please see 带儿 and 教育部 (what do you think did not work well for the latter?). Wyang (talk) 03:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Oh, have you fixed erhua? That would be great. In 教育部, "yù" is simply /y¹/. Is this correct? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:51, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Erhua rhymes are accepted by Pinyin-IPA tool, but I haven't started on an erhua autocreation script... Pinyin 'yu' is IPA /y/; please see Close front rounded vowel. Wyang (talk) 04:10, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm not 100% familiar with IPA for Mandarin. So, is /tɑɻ⁵¹/ is correct for "dàir" but it may be incorrect for other erhua? Should I tag those somehow when I create erhua entries? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:16, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Nope there is no need to do that. It should be correct as long as PreviousCharacter+er is in one syllable, i.e. not "Pinyin-IPA|dài|ér" Wyang (talk) 04:21, 20 January 2014 (UTC)
Got it, thank you! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:58, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

@User:Atitarev Template:cmn-new-er now done. Wyang (talk) 06:42, 20 January 2014 (UTC)

Thank you! I will definitely use it. I saw you using it. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:48, 20 January 2014 (UTC)


@Wyang the tool failed to process this character, a traditional alternative of . See 炖肉/燉肉.

CC: @Tooironic--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:16, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Modified. Please note that simplified 炖 corresponds to traditional 燉 and 炖 (the latter is rarer but is well represented in the corpus, eg. [1][2]). Thus 炖肉 (simp) ~ 燉肉/炖肉 (trad). Wyang (talk) 00:27, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm aware of this, that's why I added "or" in 炖肉/燉肉. I will update 炖菜/燉菜 later. (Chinese needs categories by characters like Japanese.) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:31, 11 February 2014 (UTC)


@Wyang. The template for postpositions is {{cmn-post}}, so it should generate "post", not "postp". ({{cmn-post}} needs updating, like {{cmn-noun}}, so it only displays one of simp./trad., not both) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:11, 11 February 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, done. As for the latter, I suggest deprecating these headword templates altogether, since all information in those templates is duplicated elsewhere in the entry (Wiktionary:Grease pit/2014/February#Are the redundant second copies of the simplified or traditional form of Chinese "inflection lines" a bug or a feature?). Wyang (talk) 05:17, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Thanks again for fixing.
I'm sure your suggestion to remove parts of speech for Chinese entries will not sit well with most editors. There are dictionaries that skip displaying parts of speech for Chinese, it's fine when there are example sentences but most users are just used to parts of speech and Chinese DOES have parts of speech, even if they work differently. There's no harm in duplicating and the usability is better when there are separate PoS sections. Predictable PoS don't need to be created (people tried to create verb sections for each Vietnamese, Thai or Mandarin adjectives in the past, but Vietnamese đẹp is always "beautiful" and "to be beautiful". I don't find 明白 badly structured, even if it had more PoS. It also matches the structure of other languages. There are many languages with unusual PoS. It's more scientific and correct to have them. That's my opinion but you'll have to sell your idea to the community. At the moment, I don't see it happening, though. Merging Chinese varieties is more realistic (while having separate sections for Hanzi (Interlingual)). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:32, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Multiple PoS is one thing, repeating the same information (traditional, simplified, Pinyin) in every headword template is more of what I meant above. All these have duplicates elsewhere. Wyang (talk) 05:56, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I see. Which section do you suggest to move it too? Wouldn't that complicate simple words (with one PoS)? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:11, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
Pinyin should go to Pronunciation (where I have adapted Template:Pinyin-IPA to make it display). Traditional and simplified are pure replicates of the Hanzi box and make maintenance harder, thus they should be removed. The rs value has long been obsoleted. Therefore the headword templates contain no novel information on their own, i.e. adds no informative data to the entry and should be reformatted. Wyang (talk) 06:15, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
I partially agree with you. We should phase out tra, sim and rs parameters but we should definitely keep toned Pinyin -pin, as transliteration in any headword in any language. We should also keep pint (numbered Pinyin) for sorting purposes and s, t or ts for categorisation, mw for nouns.
I think Pinyin should be phased out too (unless it has disambiguating functions). Duplicates are distracting and cause headaches in maintenance.
Current: {{cmn-post|t|pin=zhīnèi|pint=zhi1nei4|tra=之內|sim=之内|rs=丿03}}
Suggested: {{cmn-post|t|pin=zhīnèi|pint=zhi1nei4}}
Sorting of entries should be using pint.
The submodule in Module:PinyinBopo-convert does pin->pint conversion. Thus pint is extraneous when pin is present.
Toned Pinyin in pronunciation and headwords:
They should be different, IMO if there is tone sandhi, capitalisation and probably hyphenation and spacing, so that nǐhǎo and Běijīng are shown as níhǎo and běijīng in the pronunciation section.
Tone sandhi is not reflected in Pinyin. Thus
still outputs 'nǐhǎo' in Pinyin but writes tone sandhi in IPA. I can write a script to output phonetic Pinyin though, such as '/nǐhǎo/ > [níhǎo]' (although I don't think this is necessary).
Capitalisation and other symbols don't matter. "A-B C'D" can be made to be interpreted like "ABCD".
This would not be easy to achieve, though, even if there is a full agreement between Chinese speaking editors. Even a simpler issue with categorisation (...in traditional script/...in simplified script) is not actioned yet. Someone would need to write a bot. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:27, 11 February 2014 (UTC)
It is very easy to do with AWB. If I have rights, I would have done that. Wyang (talk) 03:56, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
You have a lot of good points but I don't agree with removing Pinyin from the headword (BTW, standard Pinyin should capitalise place names, see w:Pinyin#Capitalization_and_word_formation). We also need to include Zhuyin in the headword, automatically generated. I don't seem to have access to AWB myself and I don't know much about it. We agree on quite a few things. We should call on other Chinese speaking editors and decide what to do with Chinese headwords. Removing pint, tra, sim and rs is already a big change. We should move a portion of this discussion to BP. Hopefully, you'll get access to AWB.
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Pinging @Jamesjiao, @Tooironic, @Kc kennylau, please call on anyone who I missed and might be interested. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:29, 12 February 2014 (UTC)
In my opinion, the pronunciation reflecting tone sandhi should never be in the form of a bare pinyin. Moreover, I would add an entry in a hidden category if it has redundant sim or tra parameters (and additionally if it lacks both of these). Moreover, since there are many characters in Chinese, I would not recommend removing rs and automating it, unless you are going to remove all use of rs, which means that it is not going be sort by the rs. Just my opinion. --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:14, 13 February 2014 (UTC)
Where does it say place names should be capitalised? @Atitarev I have seen you capitalising pinyin for demographic nouns 俄罗斯人. Is this standard? I just ignored it as it's non-consequential whether it's in cap or not as far as I am concerned as long as the phonetic information is not lost in the process. JamesjiaoTC 02:26, 14 February 2014 (UTC)
Guys. The main question here is not about Pinyin but about changing the headwords. Wyang suggests to remove a few parameters. Yes, Pinyin should be capitalised for place, people's names and ethnicities. A dictionary that follows these rules is Pleco. I'm okey with not showing tone sandhi in Pinyin, I was only referring to the pronunciation section. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:31, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

New PoS[edit]

@Wyang For the lack of consensus on naming, I have added a new part of speech - "counters" (i.e. classifier, measure word), for which we already have templates in other languages. See 档子. Could you add counters to the script, please? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:28, 19 March 2014 (UTC)

Counter? Classifier? I think "classifier" might be more common. Wikipedia has "classifier" too. Wyang (talk) 03:07, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
The discussion about the naming for SoP didn't lead anywhere. "===Counter===" header is already approved by the autoformat, classifier is not. In any case, we can rename the template later. I'm neutral on the name but I think languages having measure words should use the same header, as there is no big difference between Japanese, Burmese, Chinese, etc. measure words. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:24, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
I've added 'counter' now. Wyang (talk) 03:32, 19 March 2014 (UTC)
Although the English term "counter" may be used for Japanese and Korean, it is not used for Mandarin; the terms "classifier" and "measure word" are used. At this project we should always use the most commonly and widely used terms, not try to invent our own. That weakens our site's functionality and has no point. 05:01, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
Is ===Classifier=== allowed? See also Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2013/November#Measure_word. If we move Chinese classifiers, we have to move all others, for consistency - Category:Counters_by_language. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:49, 1 April 2014 (UTC)
@, @Wyang the discussion is continued at Wiktionary:Beer_parlour/2014/April#Measure_word. Apparently, "classifier" is also allowed at Wiktionary, so we rename counters to classifiers. Could you make the change in the template, please. Vietnamese nouns use cls= parameters in {{vi-noun}}, perhaps we can adopt that as well for Chinese? I'll rename {{cmn-counter}} and work on all words that using it (not a big list). Ideally we should change all nouns to use cls=, instead of the current mw= in {{cmn-noun}} but the list of nouns using them might be big, I don't know how to find those. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:46, 1 April 2014 (UTC)

Changed in template. This is the list.

, , , 倉庫, , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , , 窗口, 字典, 电影, 蜜蜂, 眼睛, 人力車, 森林, 蚊子, 蜡笔, 成语, 日記, 乐器, 椅子, 飞机, 小说, 軍隊, 自行车, 演唱会, 香蕉, 汽车, 災難, 作家, 大学, 学校, 大學, 大陸, 大陆, 雀斑, 商品, 飛機, 汽車, 绵羊, 綿羊, 情報, 樂器, 小說, 自行車, 照片, 蟾蜍, 和服, 雪豹, 裤子, 褲子, 玫瑰, 高潮, 植物園, 電影, 細菌, 工人, 教室, 黑板, 活火山, 帽子, 钻石, 共鳴, 十二指腸, 海豹, 口紅, 骰子, 石頭, 作品, 课本, 課本, 浴衣, 季節, 半島, 學校, 紙幣, 書店, 规则, 規則, 手術, 鑽石, 蠟筆, 種族, 鱿鱼, 魷魚, 政党, 口红, 成語, 演唱會, 摩天楼, 日记, 電線, 灰鼠, 黄瓜, 黃瓜, 鐘頭, 钟头, 方針, 曲線, 曲线, 歌曲, 白领, 白領, 牦牛, 氂牛, 姿勢, 潜水艇, 订书机, 訂書機, 中提琴, 提琴, 小提琴, 大提琴, 低音提琴, 潛水艇, 米酒, 金字塔, 烏賊, 小牛, 村子, 座位, 瓜子, 距離, 木材, 休火山, 死火山, 树林, 弓箭, 橋樑, 桥梁, 書架, 風俗, 距离, 項目, 婚姻, 費用, 广场, 储藏室, 旅館, 仓库, 珍珠, 青蛙, 武装部队, 虱子, 书店, 紀念品, 教科書, 隘口, 城堡, 跑车, 生意, 白果, 灯芯草, 有机玻璃, 回归线, 狗肉, 鱼狗, 魚狗, 回歸線, 水坝, 水壩, 立法, 连衣裙, 連衣裙, 口号, 口號, 松鼠, 山脈, 争论, 工具, 夜猫子, 夜貓子, 镜子, 鏡子, 馅饼, 餡餅, 山脉, 迷你裙, 竖琴, 豎琴, 短裤, 短褲, 方针, 爭論, 手机, 手機, 色子, 斗鱼, 鬥魚, 栗鼠, 叶子, 葉子, 线索, 项目, 散文, 舞蹈设计, 舞蹈設計, 週刊, 梯子, 战争, 戰爭, 飞吻, 飛吻, 獼猴, 圣战, 曲子, 跷跷板, 蹺蹺板, 教科书, 甲骨, 国画, 盖子, 蓋子, 猕猴, 國畫, 餐巾, 皮包, 导向飞弹, 飞弹, 徽剧, 本生灯, 石头, 灰烬, 摩天大楼, 半岛, 标语, 树枝, 罚球, 罰球, 區域網路, 健身房, 钢锯, 鋼鋸, 咖啡厅, 咖啡馆, 咖啡屋, 种子, 绳子, 繩子, 移动电话, 移動電話, 手提电话, 手提電話, 摩天大樓, 大楼, 大樓, 咖啡豆, 咖啡館, 咖啡廳, 咖啡店, 咖啡室, 道德经, 吉普车, 吉普車, 吉普, 本生燈, 课堂, 課堂, 鸵鸟, 剃刀, 政黨, 电影院, 電影院, 有機玻璃, 聖戰, 宗教战争, 宗教戰爭, 安全感, 植物园, 牛轧糖, 牛軋糖, 停车场, 停車場, 勃起, 灰燼, 徽劇, 放大镜, 放大鏡, 邮件, 郵件, 導向飛彈, 导弹, 導彈, 飛彈, 内燃机, 內燃機, 藏青果, 進球, 文件, 公文, 出生证, 出生證, 休眠火山, 吸管, 吸管儿, 吸管兒, 肉铺, 肉舖, 礼品店, 禮品店, 礼品, 禮品, 图画, 圖畫, 光线, 光線, 岛屿, 島嶼, 译文, 譯文, 新闻稿, 新聞稿, 落地扇, 道德經, 火狐, 白鹳, 白鸛, 鬼火, 野火鸡, 野火雞, 文稿, 茶叶, 茶葉, 汤锅, 湯鍋, 战斗, 戰鬥, 尸体, 屍體, 台阶, 臺階, 简历, 簡歷, 报表, 報表, 费用, 航空公司, 高原, 种族, 肤色, 膚色, 分类广告, 分類廣告, 频道, 頻道, 车座, 車座, 戏剧, 戲劇, 谎话, 謊話, 笑话, 笑話, 季节, 图钉, 圖釘, 宣言, 牛仔裤, 牛仔褲, 演员, 演員, 夜总会, 夜總會, 总会, 總會, 鞋子, 脚趾, 腳趾, 脚指, 腳指, 方糖, 刺猬, 刺蝟, 价值, 價值, 燈芯草, 美剧, 美劇, 灾难, 推荐信, 推薦信, 人力车, 相片, 儀式, 仪式, 法官, 支票, 債券, 骨骼, 水母, 灰领, 灰領, 黑领, 黑領, 蓝领, 藍領, 绿领, 綠領, 粉领, 粉領, 知识工人, 知識工人, 风俗, 家庭影院, 家庭剧院, 家庭劇院, 影院, 剧院, 劇院, 廣場, 種子, 公用電話, 公用电话, 试验, 試驗, 债券, 姿势, 武裝部隊, 建议, 建議, 区域网路, 区域, 區域, 局域网, 局域網, 手册, 手冊, 软件, 軟件, 软体, 軟體, 游泳池, 发票, 發票, 村舍, 传送带, 傳送帶, 情报, 观点, 觀點, 冠军, 冠軍, 马路, 馬路, 门把, 門把, 财产, 財產, 伤疤, 傷疤, 伤痕, 傷痕, 疤痕, 香料, 公寓, 拐杖, 枴杖, 拐棍, 枴棍, 青藜, 柺棍, 柺杖, 手杖, 卡片, 合同, 烤炉, 烤爐, 款项, 款項, 影片, 军队, 丑事, 醜事, 丑闻, 醜聞, 长牙, 長牙, 售票处, 售票處, 气候, 氣候, 热水瓶, 熱水瓶, 棉衣, 旗子, 手帕, 手套, 手术, 瓶子, 花灯, 花燈, 不足之处, 不足之處, 纸飞机, 紙飛機, 胳膊, 胳臂, 罐头, 罐頭, 纪念, 紀念, 纪念品, 实验室, 實驗室, 海关, 海關, 旅馆, 书架, 书橱, 書櫥, 书挡, 書擋, 灾害, 災害, 罚款, 罰款, 鲜花, 鮮花, 细菌, 红绿灯, 紅綠燈, 球场, 球場, 裙子, 岛国, 圣经, 聖經, 集体, 集體, 录音机, 錄音機, 例子, 盘子, 盤子, 牙刷, 画报, 畫報, 筒仓, 筒倉, 粮仓, 糧倉, 屋顶, 屋頂, 雨衣, 勺子, 海蜇, 木头, 木頭, 木料, 木柴, 柴火, 试卷, 試卷, 建筑, 建築, 建筑物, 建築物, 胸罩, 监狱, 監獄, 研究所, 阶段, 階段, 竞赛, 競賽, 粉笔, 粉筆, 島國, 米仓, 米倉, 刀叉, 党证, 黨證, 手术室, 手術室, 黄色小说, 黃色小說, 海龟, 海龜, 河蟹, 幸事, 工艺品, 工藝品, 工艺, 工藝, 鴕鳥, 蚂蚁, 螞蟻, 食蚁兽, 食蟻獸, 周刊, 信天翁, 犰狳, 乌鸫, 烏鶇, 乌贼, 喜鹊, 喜鵲, 路考, 大猩猩, 猩猩, 复印件, 複印件, 阅览室, 閱覽室, 黑猩猩, 儲藏室, 睡衣, 山羊, 订书钉, 訂書釘, 纱笼, 紗籠, 冬瓜, 食单, 食單, 菜单, 菜單, 拉链, 拉鏈, 共鸣, 校服, 癞蛤蟆, 癩蛤蟆, 电视剧, 電視劇, 连续剧, 連續劇, 尿布, 蟑螂, 贷款, 貸款, 旱灾, 旱災, 股票, 村庄, 村莊, 剑齿虎, 劍齒虎, 背心, 茶馆, 茶館, 电线, 標語, 热气, 熱氣, 面孔, 进步, 進步, 皱纹, 皺紋, 水泡, 钢丝绳, 鋼絲繩, 公费, 公費, 白兔, 小兔, 小兔子, 发动机, 發動機, 收入, 摩天樓, 信用卡, 情书, 情書, 手镯, 手鐲, 镯子, 鐲子, 鸟巢, 鳥巢, 酒窖, 汗腺, 铁路, 鐵路, 匕首, 菜譜, 菜谱, 笔记本, 筆記本, 烟囱, 煙囪, 十二指肠, 潜艇, 潛艇, 年头, 年頭, 毯子, 收音机, 收音機, 梳子, 联防员, 聯防員, 硬幣, 硬币, 纸币, 专业, 專業, 鸭子, 鴨子, 进球, 跑車, 亭子, 童年, 拖拉机, 拖拉機, 皺紋兒, 皱纹儿, 奶罩, 出生證明書, 出生证明书, 期刊, 肥肉, 果肉, 水井, 堅果, 坚果.

I have found that use of the classifier parameter without any comments can possibly be very misleading, as in reality multiple classifiers are often in use, with different purposes. Wyang (talk) 03:26, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Ah, that's a big list. I meant the existing small list, though - Category:Mandarin counters. Of course, new ones can and should be created, especially common and useful. As for the different purpose of classifiers, too ambiguous can be left out, we can up to three parameters and comments can always be added but Chinese learners like it when classifiers are available for nouns (they are optional, of course). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:50, 2 April 2014 (UTC)
OK, I have moved Mandarin, Vietnamese, Korean and Bengali counters to classifiers. I need to do it for Japanese but I may need help with these. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:59, 3 April 2014 (UTC)
The discussion has only ever been about Chinese, and only to deal with the problem of "Measure word" being considered non-standard. Changing anything in the other languages without consulting the contributors who work with those languages is simply unacceptable. Don't do it! Chuck Entz (talk) 13:34, 3 April 2014 (UTC)

Capitalisation of proper nouns[edit]

@Wyang Can "propn" be automatically capitalised in the header (not pronunciation) - the first word only? Also the types 21, 12, should probably expanded to allow longer words. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:29, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

Thanks, propn fixed. Currently enabled types: 12 21 22 23 32 31 13 41 14 111 211 112 121 221 212 122 1111. Wyang (talk) 01:46, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, would longer words like this work: 美利堅合眾國 (or longer) to give 美利堅 + 合眾國? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:55, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
苏维埃社会主义共和国联盟 must be too hard to chew for the template/module :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:13, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
OK... try
{{subst:cmn-new|pn|[[Union of Soviet Socialist Republics]] (Soviet Union)|type=3432|wp=y}}
there now. Wyang (talk) 03:23, 21 March 2014 (UTC)
Brilliant, thank you! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 03:25, 21 March 2014 (UTC)

New PoS2[edit]

@Wyang I've just added another part of speech - suffix, see {{cmn-suf}}, . Please add to the templates. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:52, 21 April 2014 (UTC)

Sorry for the delay. I was on holiday for the past few days. Now included. Wyang (talk) 08:13, 22 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks for this and other recent edits! --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 08:37, 22 April 2014 (UTC)

Module error[edit]

@Wyang something seems to be broken but I don't get an error message. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:16, 23 April 2014 (UTC)

On what page did the error happen? Wyang (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Anywhere I tried, e.g. 爱知 with {{subst:cmn-new|propn|[[Aichi]]}} --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:52, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
It actually shows the error message 爱知 in the edit mode. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:57, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Also calling @Kc kennylau it might be something to do with some changes to Module:zh? Error message: "Lua error in Module:zh at line 170: attempt to call method 'ucfirst' (a nil value)". I'm going to bed soon, sorry to bring you guys bad news :( --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:09, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 13:22, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Thanks! Minor thing - capitalisation is lost for proper nouns (first Pinyin word) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 13:37, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
I'm fixing it, but in cases like 致富, should the capitalized version or the non-capitalized version be displayed in the pronunciation section? --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:50, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 14:56, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
Thank you. I'm neutral on this (pronunciation section). Also, a linguistic question - are demonyms like 中国人, 俄罗斯人 and language names - proper nouns and should be capitalised? I said previously yes, according to Pleco but having second thoughts and we may have difficulty implementing this consistently (CC: @Jamesjiao we had a discussion on that). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:04, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
I've always been against the idea of capitalising pinyin at all. Pinyin is a transcription system, so it shouldn't carry any semantic or grammatical information. However, people here seem to agree on capitalsing pinyin for proper nouns. I have acquiesced to that, but capitalising demonyms doesn't seem to make any sense. @Atitarev JamesjiaoTC 23:30, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
Well, capitalisation of place and people's names are generally accepted in pinyin - Wikipedia has a rule about, so do most dictionaries. Now that Wyang's wonderful tool automatically capitalises proper nouns and Japanese modules do the same, I thought about this inconsistency. Pleco and Wenlin do capitalise languages and demonym, I think just following - China->Chinese, Japan->Japanese, etc. If we decide that languages and demonyms are NOT proper nouns in Chinese, then we can convert them to lower case (it's already done so with Japanese). --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:51, 27 April 2014 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau (oversimplified? ;)), @Wyang new woes: 戰壕, User_talk:Wyang#戰壕. CC @Tooironic --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:23, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
I have restored the last functioning version. @kc kennylau Please make sure your changes do not break the module. Maybe use your userpage modules for experimentation of significant changes. Wyang (talk) 23:32, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
(E/C)Thanks, Wyang. Kc kennylau, please don't consider it a harsh criticism, you're allowed to try. Maybe we should now use trial versions? Module:zh has become too important and people are relying on it. Wyang, you beat me to it. :)--Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 23:34, 23 April 2014 (UTC)
@WyangStill does it 栃木. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:04, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I have restored an earlier version which seems to non-broken. Wyang (talk) 00:13, 24 April 2014 (UTC)
I apologize for all the mess I've created. I've fixed it now. --kc_kennylau (talk) 00:54, 24 April 2014 (UTC)

Co-creation - Vietnamese, Korean[edit]

@Wyang Is this feature gone? I tried to add a Vietnamese Hán tự entry using {{subst:cmn-new|pn|[[Kobe]], Japan|v=Thần Hộ}} on 神戶. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:33, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

@Atitarev The parameter name is vi instead of v. --kc_kennylau (talk) 07:47, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau I have tried that as well... --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 07:49, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
@Atitarev Sorry, the paremeter is v and I've fixed it now. --kc_kennylau (talk) 07:55, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Module error" does not exist.-->[edit]

Not working again on {{subst:cmn-new|pn|[[Nagano]], Japan}} on 長野. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 11:59, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

<strong class="error"><span class="scribunto-error" id="mw-scribunto-error-0">Module error<!--Script error: The function "create<!--
 1-->" does not exist.--></span></strong>
The error message is above. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:01, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
@Kc kennylau, could you make User:Kc kennylau/Module:zh and copy of templates, which use it for your testing? I'd like to use Module:zh but it's not working. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 12:24, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
I previewed each time I edit Module:zh... As you can see, the template read the function as create<!--(newline) 1--> which should have been commented out. This is a bug of the whole MediaWiki itself, and I will report this to the Beer Parlour Grease Pit. (Actually part of this is my fault too, as I have edited the main template without testing.) Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 15:05, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
The bug cannot be reproduced... --kc_kennylau (talk) 15:13, 25 April 2014 (UTC)
Reproduction successful, reported. --kc_kennylau (talk) 15:24, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Topolect parameters[edit]

@Wyang I see you have changed the template. Are you able to add 'c', 'mn' and 'w' parameters for pronunciations? (yue, nan and wuu are standard codes for Cantonese, Min Nan and Wu, actually).

Shall I move it to {{zh-new}} with a redirect?

I wonder if it's hard to recreate/create all zh Categories - exactly as Category:cmn:All topics with "zh" code, minus "... in simplified script‎"/"... in traditional script‎"? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:09, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Don't forget do bring across "homophones" to {{zh-pron}}, see 祕密 --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 00:18, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
You speak my mind! I have done 1 (Template:zh-new/documentation), 2 (Template:zh-new), 3 (Category:zh:List of topics, Special:Contributions/Wyangbot), and 4 (秘密). Wyang (talk) 01:22, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Great stuff! Now, there's a lot of manual work to do... --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:42, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
@ there was a referenced Hakka section. I've added "hak=tshâ" to pronunciation template. Could you add Hakka handling (even if it's just translit)? Perhaps a simple one-liner could be useful for any other transliterated Chinese topolects we may come across. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 01:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Hakka dictionary
For Hakka I think it might be better to preserve all original information in {{hak-hanzi}} (replace all '|' with ';'), since the parameter values are not interconvertable (eg. ). I have added romanisations for Hakka. Please see now. Wyang (talk) 02:44, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Thanks, I think I got it. Should Hakka romanisations "tshâ " really be hyperlinked? Pinyin chá should be hyperlinked in both views. And if Hakka (or any other) is present, could you add it to the "collapsed" display? --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 02:53, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
I have removed the hyperlink and added it to the top section of the template. Wyang (talk) 04:40, 2 May 2014 (UTC)


Synonnyms (syn) are now missing. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:56, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

@kc kennylau Pinging Kenny. Wyang (talk) 05:24, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Yes, Kenny, please stop oversimplifying. Otherwise, I will have to protect it :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:42, 2 May 2014 (UTC)
Sorry, I will be more careful next time. I'll have to admit that I make mistakes often, but I'll fix them all. Fixed. --kc_kennylau (talk) 09:30, 2 May 2014 (UTC)

Small change request[edit]

Can the Korean co-created section now go below Chinese, instead of above? And can synonyms, etc. use {{zh-l}}, not {{l|zh}} by default? I hope it's not hard. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 04:45, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Both are done now. Wyang (talk) 04:57, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you! Can I have chips with that? :) On my wish list are also contexts and categories with sorting - {{cx|blah|lang=zh|sort=pin1yin1}}, [ [ :Category:zh:Fruits | pin1yin1 ] ] --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:05, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Second chips done. I can't do the first because it is not in Module:zh (unless I misunderstood). It doesn't seem necessary because we could write a pseudo-transliteration module and tell Module:languages/data2 to sort context tags using the stored pronunciations if there is no given sorting and if the string contains Chinese characters. Wyang (talk) 05:15, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Thank you!The sorting was Zhuyin, though :) --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:29, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Audio makes entries get into "Language code missing/audio cat", it needs "lang=". --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 05:31, 8 May 2014 (UTC)
Haha that was silly. Both are done. Wyang (talk) 05:35, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

Hakka, alternative forms; ko/vi[edit]

@Wyang Frank, could you add POJ Hakka (h=poj) and alternative forms, please? Also, could you remove Han characters from generated hanja-tab (ko) and hantu-tab (vi)? It's easier to copy-paste without them and they are not necessary. --Anatoli (обсудить/вклад) 06:31, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Hakka done; alternative forms are 'alt', 'alt2', 'alt3'; Han characters removed. Wyang (talk) 07:35, 20 May 2014 (UTC)

Category:Chinese terms with uncreated forms[edit]

Using zh-new seems to make a page appear in Category:Chinese terms with uncreated forms, regardless of whether the simplified/traditional has been created, or even if it doesn't have one (like 小小). Except, the category doesn't appear at the bottom of the word entry, and the entry disappears from the category page after a null edit. —umbreon126 03:28, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Some possible defects[edit]

@Wyang Hi Frank,

There are possibly some defects in the template, if it's OK:

  1. Parameter |e= doesn't seem to work. I tried on 神輿神舆 (shényú) with e={{bor|zh|ja|神輿|tr=mikoshi}}.
  2. p2, p3, etc. definitely don't work. They all think it's "p1". You can't change pinyin if it's not the first syllable. E.g. {{subst:zh-new|n|electrical terminal|p2=zi}} in 端子 (duānzi)

Thanks in advance! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 08:43, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Yeah, I have noticed this too. Perhaps @kc kennylau could help here? I'm not sure I can understand the new params feature in Module:zh. For #2, I have been previewing the page and using the |m= parameter instead as a workaround. Wyang (talk) 08:55, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks. Using |m= is a good suggestion. Hopefully Kenny can fix the |e= param. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 09:09, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

@Atitarev, Wyang: Sorry for the inconvenience caused. I have fixed both issues. --kc_kennylau (talk) 12:31, 7 September 2016 (UTC)

Thanks Kenny! Wyang (talk) 12:33, 7 September 2016 (UTC)
Thanks Kenny! --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:21, 7 September 2016 (UTC)