Wiktionary:Grease pit

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Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

It is said that while the classic beer parlour is a place for people from all walks of life to talk about politics, news, sports, and picking up chicks, the grease pit is a place for mechanics, engineers, and technicians to talk about nuts and bolts, engine overhauls, fancy paint jobs, lumpy cams, and fat exhausts. That may or may not make things clearer... Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives edit
2006
2007
2008
2009
2010
2011
2012
2013
2014


Contents

July 2015

Kott (Yeniseian) conjugation table(s)[edit]

Hi, I added a conjugation table to at least two Kott language articles a while ago, and now I'm wondering how to replace my wikitext (a raw table) with one or more conjugation templates for the Kott language. Jackwolfroven (talk) 20:05, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

I've created {{zko-conj}} and replaced the raw table on afu-ākŋ with the template. Is this what you meant? DTLHS (talk) 20:19, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, thanks. If I get more information about the language (for example if I learn of regular conjugation classes), may I edit the template? Jackwolfroven (talk) 20:48, 2 July 2015 (UTC)
Of course. DTLHS (talk) 20:50, 2 July 2015 (UTC)

Lua error in {{inflection of}} - "pos" is not used[edit]

The {{inflection of}} template no longer accepts the pos parameter: "Lua error in Module:parameters at line 85: The parameter "pos" is not used by this template." See azokhoz. How can I find all Hungarian entries with this error? I'd like to correct them. Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 17:08, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Just wait for the errors to appear. —CodeCat 17:17, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Unfortunately, I have no idea where and when they will appear. Which entries? Could you create a category to track it? All Hungarian words that use the {{inflection of}} template and have the pos= parameter. --Panda10 (talk) 17:23, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, the errors are tracked at Category:Pages with module errors. —CodeCat 17:29, 5 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 17:57, 5 July 2015 (UTC)

Adding gmy to override_translit in Module:links?[edit]

Anyone OK with or objecting to adding gmy (Mycenaean Greek) to the list of languages where we override the manual translit? I encountered this issue when writing code to remove unnecessary translits. In particular, {{grc-alt}} when passed the parameter |dial=muk passes the resulting translit parameter to {{head|gmy}} instead of {{head|grc}}. Now, grc is in the override list but gmy isn't, so I have to special-case this template. I don't see why there would be any exceptional transliterations required for Linear B. Benwing (talk) 08:46, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

I have added gmy to the list of languages where we override the manual transliteration, but we can wait a little more to see if anyone objects. --Vahag (talk) 10:22, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Add to the ranges of Arabic characters in Module:scripts/data[edit]

In Module:scripts/data, the list of characters for Arabic (characters under m["Arab"]) is this monstrosity:

"؀-ۿݐ-ݿﭐ-﷽ﹰ-ﻼ"

This is hard to understand but if you paste it into Python you get

u'\u0600-\u06ff\u0750-\u077f\ufb50-\ufdfd\ufe70-\ufefc'

This is missing the range 08A0-08FF, which is "Arabic Extended A". So a better string might be

"؀-ۿݐ-ݿ-ࣿﭐ-﷽ﹰ-ﻼ"

You can paste this into Python and you get

u'\u0600-\u06ff\u0750-\u077f\ue8a0-\u08ff\ufb50-\ufdfd\ufe70-\ufefc'

which is correct. Can someone update this entry?

Thanks. Benwing (talk) 13:01, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

(NB, if the display looks weird of the second string, and it seems the chars from the first string have gotten jumbled in some strange way, it's because your browser doesn't recognize Arabic Extended A as R2L characters yet.) Benwing (talk) 13:02, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

There is a mistake in your text. U+E8A0 should probably be U+08A0. I also think we should stop maintaining separate scripts, such as fa-Arab, for other Arabic-script languages. --WikiTiki89 13:10, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I also realize that mistake originates in the official Unicode chart itself and not from you. The correct text is "؀-ۿݐ-ݿࢠ-ࣿﭐ-﷽ﹰ-ﻼ", which I have just added to the module. --WikiTiki89 13:25, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Didn't notice that mistake, but it's staring right at me now, d'oh ... Benwing (talk) 14:38, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
I agree about the separate scripts like fa-Arab; I don't see the point of them. Benwing (talk) 14:40, 7 July 2015 (UTC)
There are twelve different sub-varieties of the script code Arab. I understand that not every font that supports Arabic-language Arabic script is optimized for, say, Persian-language Arabic script, but is it really the case that all twelve varieties use such different letters that they need different fonts? (Are there any other issues, like different transliterations?) It would seem like we could combine at least some of the sub-varieties. - -sche (discuss) 00:49, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Transliterations are irrelevant because they are handled by language, not by script. The difference is that each of these subvarieties has its own special characters that may not be supported by fonts designed for a different Arabic-script language. But nowadays most fonts do support all of these languages. The other thing is that some languages prefer to write certain characters in slightly different ways. But we don't worry about this in Cyrillic, for example, where the б in Serbian is sometimes displayed differently from the б in Russian, but we still use the same script tag for them (in fact, some fonts will handle these differences automatically if the language is properly tagged). If you take the Latin script as an example, there are tons of languages that use vastly different sets of special characters with different capitalization rules (such as for the ı in Turkic languages) and other quirks, yet they all use the same script tag (although we do have Latnx and Cyrs for certain dead Latin- and Cyrillic-script languages because they are less likely to be supported by mainstream fonts). --WikiTiki89 15:34, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── Can we not just write the CSS in a way that it special-cases on the language as well as the script? In MediaWiki:Common.css there are examples like

:lang(vi).Hani { 
   ...
}

and

.Latn[lang=ja],
.Latn[lang=ko],
.Latn[lang=zh] {
        font-family: inherit;
}

Benwing (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

I've been told that this is not portable to IE 6 or IE 7. See Wiktionary:Grease pit/2013/November#Language-specific CSS at MediaWiki:Common.css. --WikiTiki89 17:13, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Mistakes in Ancient Greek templates[edit]

I can't figure out who is responsible for maintaining the Ancient Greek entries, but I found a number of mistakes in the template calls, where Greek text occurs in the transliteration field that I would otherwise remove. In general these are cases that should go into the sort field that follows the obsoleted translit field, although maybe the sort field is also unnecessary.

Page 8956 αἰώνιος: WARNING: Value 3=αἰωνιος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-adj-1&2|αἰώνια|αἰώνιον|tr=aiōnios|αἰωνιος}}
Page 9200 θύννος: WARNING: Value 4=θυννος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|θύννου|m|second|θυννος|tr=thunnos}}
Page 9871 χόδανος: WARNING: Value 4=χοδανοσ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|head=χόδᾰνος|χοδάνου|m|second|χοδανοσ}}
Page 11618 σταφυλή: WARNING: Value 4=σταφυλη has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|σταφυλῆς|f|first|σταφυλη|tr=stafulē|cat1=Fruits}}
Page 254 αἰώνιος: WARNING: Value 3=αἰωνιος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-adj-1&2|αἰώνια|αἰώνιον|tr=aiōnios|αἰωνιος}}
Page 2089 ζεῦγμα: WARNING: Value 4=ζευγμα has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|ζεύγματος|n|third|ζευγμα}}
Page 2360 θύννος: WARNING: Value 4=θυννος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|θύννου|m|second|θυννος|tr=thunnos}}
Page 3494 μέδος: WARNING: Value 4=μεδος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|unknown|m|second|μεδος|cat1=Beverages}}
Page 4277 παρῳδία: WARNING: Value 4=παρωδια has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|παρῳδίας|f|first|παρωδια}}
Page 4688 πτερωτός: WARNING: Value 3=πτερωτος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-adj-1&2|πτερωτή|πτερωτόν|tr=pterōtos|πτερωτος}}
Page 5088 σταφυλή: WARNING: Value 4=σταφυλη has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|σταφυλῆς|f|first|σταφυλη|tr=stafulē|cat1=Fruits}}
Page 5873 χαραδριός: WARNING: Value 4=χαραδριος has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|χαραδριοῦ|m|second|χαραδριος|cat1=Birds|tr=kharadrios}}
Page 5906 Χέοψ: WARNING: Value 4=Κheops has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-proper noun|Χέοπος|m|third|Κheops}}
Page 5935 χόδανος: WARNING: Value 4=χοδανοσ has non-Western chars in it, not removing: {{grc-noun|head=χόδᾰνος|χοδάνου|m|second|χοδανοσ}}

Benwing (talk) 03:06, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. All but one of them were mine, mostly dating back to when I was still learning how to use the templates. At μέδος ‎(médos), I wish I could get it to say that the genitive is unknown, rather than indeclinable (It looks like it should be a straightforward second-declension noun, though). My workaround must have worked when I did it, but the template has changed completely since then. As for the sort field: it is unnecessary, though there may be an exception or two I don't know about. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:12, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Template:el-p[edit]

This junky template still makes use of manual translit rather than auto-transliterating the Greek text. If someone (e.g. CodeCat) wants to fix this up, please be my guest. Benwing (talk) 03:10, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

please make changes to Module:languages/data3/x for Andalusian Arabic[edit]

m["xaa"] = {
        canonicalName = "Andalusian Arabic",
        otherNames = {"Andalusi Arabic", "Moorish Arabic", "Spanish Arabic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"Arab"},
        family = "sem-arb",
        entry_name = {
                from = {u(0x0671), u(0x064B), u(0x064C), u(0x064D), u(0x064E), u(0x064F), u(0x0650), u(0x0651), u(0x0652), u(0x0670), u(0x0640)},
                to   = {u(0x0627)}},
}

Thanks. Benwing (talk) 10:59, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

@Benwing Yes check.svg Done. Keep up the good work. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:17, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
We should just make Benwing an admin... - -sche (discuss) 00:52, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, totally. Sorry for not getting around to nominate him. He is a great asset to Wiktionary, not just as an editor but as an admin, I'm sure. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:15, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Not that I have any reason to distrust Benwing in particular, but I think this project has enough admins, actually. Keφr 18:16, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't need admin privileges but I'd like to be able to edit certain module pages that are currently locked, without having to bug others to do it. CodeCat in particular has not been very responsive recently to requests I've made. Benwing (talk) 07:52, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

abusefilter-warning-ref-no-references getting triggered incorrectly?[edit]

My bot is getting an error on Thule:

ERROR: editpage: abusefilter-warning-ref-no-references
Hit AbuseFilter: ref no references, 
WARNING: Page [[Thule]] not saved
Page 25 Thule: Error

I tried a manual save and I don't hit the abuse filter. The page does have <ref> without <references/> but instead it has {{reflist}}, which seems to do the same thing. This suggests something is wrong with the filter. Benwing (talk) 23:32, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Some Wikipedian used a Wikipedia template when they should have just used <references/>... - -sche (discuss) 00:54, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I remember deleting that template, back when it did something else. Since it is pointless and causes problems like this, I think it should be speedied and salted. Or replaced with something along the lines of "Just use <references/> directly, you idiot", following {{helpme}}. Keφr 18:18, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

{{head}} doesn't pay attention to override_translit[edit]

Why not? There are a couple of cases, in particular in Ͷ and ͷ where it potentially might make sense to allow overridden translits of Ancient Greek, but in general it seems really hacky to have {{head}} allow overriding langs with override_translit -- it goes against the whole purpose of override_translit and makes it risky to remove manual translits in {{head}}. In these two cases a better idea would be to use |tr=- and manually write the translit afterwards. Benwing (talk) 23:43, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

Wouldn't this issue affect not just Ͷ and ͷ, but any words spelled with them? I presume such words are attested. Or do we have a policy of "normalizing" the spelling/encoding of words which contain such allographs the way we normalize words from old books that have long s, superscript-e-umlauts, c-t ligatures and some other things? - -sche (discuss) 00:58, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
But, to follow up on this thought, then any links to such words would be affected as much as the entries' {{head}}s, so the solution would be to turn off the overriding of manual transliteration for Greek (iff we don't have a better way of handling entries with Ͷ and ͷ). {{head}} should override manual transliterations to the same extent as other templates. - -sche (discuss) 15:45, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I strongly agree that {{head}} should override manual translit for languages in override_translit. --Vahag (talk) 09:56, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't think there are any words that have Ͷ or ͷ in them. I'm not sure if it makes sense to turn off override_translit for Ancient Greek just to handle these particular cases. Benwing (talk) 07:58, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Well override_translit is just a workaround to make sure all transliterations are standardized before we remove all the manual ones. Once we remove all the manual transliterations, we can remove override_translit and then be able to use manual transliterations for exceptional cases. --WikiTiki89 17:15, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
I have a bot to remove the translits but haven't finished, partly because there's an issue with long ā ī ū existing in the translit but not in the Ancient Greek itself, when the underlying vowel is long. My partial run already removed many such cases but I'm thinking of putting them back. There is a list of such cases in my user space; see the comments in my talk page under the entry for Ͷ/ͷ. Ideally the Greek should be canonicalized to include the long marks, based on the translit. There are two ways to do this: Either insert the Greek text with macrons as "alternate display" text or (IMO better and will make a lot of things a lot easier) insert it as the normal text and remove the macrons using a filter, just like we do for Latin. What do you think of implementing such a filter? Benwing (talk) 09:01, 11 July 2015 (UTC)
OK, looks like this is already implemented. Benwing (talk) 10:57, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Category:Pages with broken file links[edit]

There are about 200 Chinese character entries in this category. In many cases (e.g. ), the issue seems to be that {{Han etyl}} expects several pictures and not all of them exist. Can someone adapt the template so users can specify that it shouldn't attempt to display certain pictures (because they don't exist)? In other entries, e.g. 血液循環, the issue is that someone has specified ma=y or the like to tell {{zh-pron}} to display an audio file, but no audio file exists. - -sche (discuss) 01:23, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

@Tooironic, "|ma=y" means an audio file, e.g. Zh-xuěyè xúnhuán.ogg exists but it doesn't. :) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:53, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
If those {{Han etyl}} images were hosted in Wiktionary {{#ifexist}} could work. But it seems that {{#ifexist}} does not work with Commons files. :( —suzukaze (tc) 02:07, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Just ignore that brain fart. ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:59, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
{{#ifexist:}} works with the Media: namespace, by the way. Keφr 08:18, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Template:sk-noun[edit]

When the parameter "decl" is used in the {{Template:sk-noun}}, the template does not close the brackets at the end. See e. g. chlór#Slovak. Could somebody fix it, please? Thanks very much. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 17:55, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

I updated it to use more features of {{head}}, which also fixed the problem. --WikiTiki89 18:28, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 18:30, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

Indentation width on module pages[edit]

I thought we made module pages display indentations with a width of four spaces. Now, it seems to have switched back to eight. (See any module page for an example, but for convenience, I will link Module:en-headword.) --WikiTiki89 21:19, 9 July 2015 (UTC)

In case it's just me, I'm using the latest version of Google Chrome (43.0.2357.132) on Windows 7. Also, the tab-size properties in MediaWiki:Common.css are still set to 4. --WikiTiki89 21:24, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
This should be changed, but I think we should also try to make the syntax highlighting match between the view page and the edit page. —CodeCat 21:35, 9 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't see this and I'm using exactly the same version of Chrome on Mac OS X 10.9. Benwing (talk) 05:35, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Either Kephir fixed it here, or it randomly started working again today. --WikiTiki89 17:18, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Keφr 20:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Issues with Template:der3[edit]

This unpleasant template has display issues, that I've seen a few times:

1. It does not allow a collapsible box header, but simply plops a duplicate "Derived terms" below the "Derived terms" header that is already present.

2. It incorrectly displays some terms. Look at orange#Derived_terms, where "satsuma" orange displays as "atsuma orange", "sour orange" as "our orange", and "sweet orange" as "weet orange".

If this template were gone, I wouldn't miss it even a little bit. -- · (talk) 04:43, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

1, yes it does, read the documentation, 2 is fixed. DTLHS (talk) 04:48, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
It is a very useful template. I would miss it a lot if it were gone. @DTLHS, was transliteration disabled at some point? --Vahag (talk) 22:02, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, I have added them back. DTLHS (talk) 22:13, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Red links/black links[edit]

How do I make a link appear like normal black text unless it links to a page that exists, then display it normally? Like it is in conjugation boxes? I wanted to do it here. WurdSnatcher (talk) 14:44, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Use class="inflection-table". For example: lolol, kjgkhvyf. — Ungoliant (falai) 14:50, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Awesome, thank you! WurdSnatcher (talk) 14:57, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
Although that will make the CSS class name rather non-indicative... what are you trying to do anyway? Keφr 14:59, 10 July 2015 (UTC)
I wanted to make a glossary format like this, which has links to citations pages for all of the words. That way the list can be expanded and new citations added to the citations page, and when there are enough to make a page for it, the link will be there automatically. WurdSnatcher (talk) 15:04, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Broken link in Appendix:Unicode/Basic Latin[edit]

Please someone fix the broken link in Appendix:Unicode/Basic Latin:
"U+002F" (SOLIDUS) should link to / but links to Appendix:Unicode/Basic Latin/.
When you type [[/]]] it links to the current page+slash, so I believe the actual link should be [[&#47;]], but I'm not very good at editing Lua yet to do the change in Module:character list myself. Thanks. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 18:59, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

[[:/]] also works; I used that. Thanks. Keφr 19:07, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

Ruby print should be closer to kanji characters, although this is not a problem in mobile view[edit]

Ruby print should be closer to kanji, although this is not a problem in mobile view. This is especially the case with larger fonts and I wish this could be fixed. I would think this would be an easy fix since the spacing between ruby print and kanji is perfect for both large and small font sizes when viewing the mobile version of pages. For a good example of this, please see Appendix:Gikun_Usage_in_Meiji_Version_of_Japanese_Bible and then compare it with the mobile version of the page. This does not appear to be a browser related issue. 馬太阿房 (talk) 21:52, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

I wonder whether this might be a font-related issue. When I look at the ruby print in Appendix:Gikun Usage in Meiji Version of Japanese Bible, it looks fine to me. —Stephen (Talk) 23:53, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Did you compare with mobile view? 馬太阿房 (talk) 04:48, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
No. I don’t have a mobile device. —Stephen (Talk) 10:30, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
This is what I see on my laptop and iPad - look pretty much the same. Keith the Koala (talk) 11:41, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
That’s how mine looks (laptop). —Stephen (Talk) 11:54, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the screenshots. I see you are using Firefox with “gothic” font on your laptop and similar font on ipad. It does appear to be a font issues after all. I agree that the spacing between Kanji and ruby print doesn't look bad on your laptop. What is the name of the font your Firefox browser is using? I've tried different fonts with my Chrome browser and even the gothic ones have lots of space between Kanji and ruby. IE seems to have the same issue. 馬太阿房 (talk) 07:59, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Keith, your Firefox screenshot convinced me to download Firefox for my personal computer. Happy to say that now the spacing between kanji and ruby print is perfect. Thanks again. By the way, it was definitely an IE and Chrome issue and not a font issue, because I see that with Firefox, even using the exact same fonts as I was using with IE and Chrome, the spacing is perfect.馬太阿房 (talk) 02:51, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Oldest and newest requests to categories[edit]

Can someone please add oldest and newest request (10 each) to {{poscatboiler}}, similar to {{trreqcatboiler}}? I tried but didn't succeed.

Reason: I want to track definitionless entries, e.g. in Category:Korean entries needing definition I want to see the newest and the oldest ones. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:36, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

"plural of" template[edit]

This template has been altered to read "plural of" instead of "plural form of". I have been using it for the plural form of Norwegian adjectives - there is no template for "plural form of" however. So what's the solution - "form of|plural form|-"? Admittedly a roundabout way of doing it, or can a new template be created? Donnanz (talk) 09:50, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Just use {{plural of}}? —CodeCat 18:18, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
No, that won't do - I'm talking about plural forms of adjectives, not the plural of nouns. There's a difference. Donnanz (talk) 20:00, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Why won't it do? I don't see the problem, we use {{plural of}} for adjectives all over the place. —CodeCat 20:03, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Obviously I'm not going to convince you. I'll have to resort to using the roundabout method. Donnanz (talk) 20:19, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Why do you have to be so contrary? Other editors have had this problem with you before; if things don't work your way, you look for all kinds of bad workarounds. —CodeCat 21:05, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Something was accomplished in that thread a year ago. As for being contrary, well, I like accurate descriptions, and the alteration to the template amounts to oversimplification in my opinion. Besides that, I have kept my head below the parapet for some months. I can't be criticised for that, can I? Donnanz (talk) 22:06, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
All that has happened is that {{plural of}} was made to display the same thing as {{inflection of|...||p}}. I can't think of a reason why they should show different things when they mean the same thing. —CodeCat 22:43, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Second opinion, anyone? Donnanz (talk) 23:13, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
Even {{plural form of}} is redirected to {{plural of}}, so I can't win. That template is locked, so nobody can change it even if they want to. So "bad workarounds", even though I don't like them, are the only solution I'm afraid. Donnanz (talk) 13:24, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Or you could just use {{plural of}} like everyone else. —CodeCat 13:43, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
@Donnanz: Please explain why you think "plural of" doesn't make sense for adjectives. You can't expect people to take your side if you don't even explain yourself. --WikiTiki89 13:59, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
As I have already tried to explain above, that is what they are, plural forms of adjectives; {{plural of}} is adequate for simple noun plurals, as in English. This template cannot be used for Norwegian nouns, as there are indefinite and definite forms, so I use {{inflection of}} for those. I used to use that template for definite singular noun forms too, but found that {{definite of}} reading "definite singular of" works well for both those and the definite singular of adjectives (so please don't ever change the wording of that template!). Although thinking about it, definite singular forms and plural forms of adjectives could be merged into one template ("definite singular and plural form of") as they are invariably the same in both Norwegian and Danish, instead of putting them on two lines as at present. No problem with {{neuter singular of}} for the neuter form of adjectives. Adjectives which don't change form are easily catered for by simply adding "indeclinable". Donnanz (talk) 16:37, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
I don't understand your point. How is the meaning of "plural form of" different from "plural of"? --WikiTiki89 17:03, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Our definition of "plural", and that of Chambers, do not say "only applies to nouns". To talk of the plural of an adj is fine. Equinox 19:39, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, to talk of the "plural of" an adjective is fine. (And I fail to see how "plural of" could possibly be problematic without the synonymous but longer "plural form of" being equally problematic.) Merriam-Webster agrees that "plural" can refer to more than just nouns (it has usexes of "plural noun" and "plural verb"), as does Dictionary.com (which makes reference to plural pronouns besides plural nouns), and Oxford Dictionaries (which makes reference to plural nouns, pronouns, and verbs). At Ngrams, "plural of the adjective" was more common than "plural form of the adjective" until about 15 years ago, and it's still about half as common. - -sche (discuss) 19:50, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, those stats show that I'm half-right, not completely wrong. Donnanz (talk) 08:30, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
No, they show that you are "completely wrong" about "plural of an adjective" being wrong, because if it were wrong, the ratio could not have possibly come even close to 1/2. --WikiTiki89 12:49, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
A predictable retort. Donnanz (talk) 14:43, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Svan entries[edit]

Hi. Is it better to include the combining characters such as "combining caron" (U+030C) and "combining dieresis" (U+0308) in the actual title of a Svan entry or should I put such characters only in the {{head}} template? Usage of combining characters are necessary because we do not have unicode Georgian letters with circumflex accents, diaereses or carons. On one hand, putting combining characters in the title of the page causes stuff like this, but on the other — there is no such word as ფაქუ in Svan (i.e., without a circumflex accent on ) and needless to say =/= უ̂. What should I do here? Sorry if this is an extremely nooby question, but I have to ask this. --Simboyd (talk) 18:02, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

There's nothing wrong with using combining characters in page titles if the precomposed characters don't exist in Unicode (yet). The only time to leave diacritics out of page titles but include them in the headword line is if such diacritics aren't normally found in printed texts but are encountered only (or primarily) in pedagogical texts like dictionaries, grammar books, readers for children and language students. If Svan texts always include these diacritics, then they should be part of the page title. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:38, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
I completely agree and that is exactly what I tried to do for this word as well, but as you can see combining characters have glitches when applied on Georgian unicode characters. Should I just ignore this then? --Simboyd (talk) 20:58, 12 July 2015 (UTC)
From what I have seen, Svan uses უ, უ̄, უ̈, უ̄̈ ‎(u, ū, ü, ṻ). The problem is not the diacritics, but whether the font was designed to include Svan text. Georgian font designers do not make provisions for these diacritics, since Georgian does not use them, but a font designer can easily adjust the font to display the diacritics correctly over Georgian letters. Therefore, you just need fonts that are intended for Svan, such as TITUS Cyberbit Basic. —Stephen (Talk) 23:24, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

We have the same problem with Armenian dialects. Until today I was stripping diacritics from the links and not including them in the page title, but now I think the diacritics should be included however ugly they look. The only problem is that searching for կյազար does not find կյա̈զա̈ր ‎(kyäzär). Redirects are a solution, when there is no entry with an identical spelling. --Vahag (talk) 08:19, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Can anyone help fix {{ja-pron}}?[edit]

It seems that this template doesn't handle well some combinations of kana such as ウェ or ティ. Eg: サイバネティックス, スウェーデン, ノルウェー. ばかFumikotalk 10:24, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Fixed: [1]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 11:58, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Enabling page-specific CSS's[edit]

We have lots of nonmainspace pages that would benefit from styling: they can get prettier or even can load faster. For example, here each line could be 18 characters less and thus load faster.

Also, just above our homey needed exactly this – page-specific css. But instead he ended up using his own template.

Inflection table templates would be easier to style and read. One prominent example is Template:la-decl-adj-table-m+f+n that has three dedicated templates Latincolour1, Latincolour2, Latincolour3.

Also, if we allow this change we would be one step closer to the separation of presentation and markup.

So, I suggest that we enable Extension:CSS. --Dixtosa (talk) 12:51, 14 July 2015 (UTC)

Weak support. I don't think it matters that much. --WikiTiki89 12:57, 14 July 2015 (UTC)


  1. It would make it possible to copy other wikiproject's templates. Notably, moving Wikipedia's Navbox here was a hard-work and, eventually, resulted in an unmaintainable template.--Dixtosa (talk) 13:22, 14 July 2015 (UTC)
  2. We would be going to be able to use pseudo-classes.
  3. We would be able to reduce the size of MediaWiki:Common.css and leave only truly cross-language styles to it.
    concrete example: 20 lines of CSS used by {{zh-hanzi-box}}. Wouldn't it be wiser to put the CSS in the template? Non Chinese entries would load faster
    We also have {{shortcut}}, Russian inflection-table classes, "Tabbed Languages support" (which I haven't enabled) etc.--Dixtosa (talk) 18:04, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
  • {{Navbox}} should be deleted; we have other conventions for navigation templates. Inflection tables should have inline styles replaced by CSS classes common across languages (harmonising their styles in the process). And if you do that, the whole need for this extension should disappear. I think you will have a hard time convincing the WMF to install this extension here anyway. Keφr 18:47, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
    What conventions? I can image this here. But this was what I got when I copied it. Also, I had to go through a lot of trouble when I copied User_scripts from Wikipedia.
    Inflections tables need not be harmonized. Even if they do this does not contradict with the installation of the extension.
    What about pseudo-classes? I actually thought maybe {{character info/new}} could enlarge the character (class "character-sample") on :hover. That would make it possible to see every little stroke of a letter.
    Yeah, thanks to you and Wikitiki now I stand no chance of being taken seriously on Phabricator.
    Anyways, if there's an interest this could be implemented without WMF people. One little addition to Mediawiki:Common.js can make this work. OMG, I can't contain myself - the sexyness of my inflection tables is overwhelming --Dixtosa (talk) 14:06, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
    • See {{list:Gregorian calendar months/en}} for an example. Loading CSS by JavaScript is awful enough when LiquidThreads does it. This should absolutely not be done to entries. —Keφr 14:39, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

Errors in Ancient Greek or translit[edit]

My bot produced the following errors when trying to match up ("match-canonicalize") Ancient Greek and Latin, transferring macrons and breves from one to the other and then removing the manual transliteration if it's the same as the automatic one. (Note, these are all entries where the Latin translit has a macron over a, i or u.) Can one of the people working on Ancient Greek fix up these entries? Thanks.

Page 8 Amilcare: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Ἀμίλκας (Hamilkās): Unable to match Greek character Α at index 1, Latin character H at index 0: {{term|Ἀμίλκας|lang=grc|tr=Hamilkās}}
Page 22 Areopagite: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Ἀρεοπαγίtης (areiopagītēs): Unable to match Greek character ο at index 4, Latin character i at index 3: {{term|Ἀρεοπαγίtης|tr=areiopagītēs|lang=grc}}
Page 29 Dioscuri: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Διόσκουροι (Dióskūroi): Unable to match Greek character ο at index 6, Latin character u at index 6: {{term|Διόσκουροι||the youths of [[Zeus]]|tr=Dióskūroi|lang=grc}}
Page 60 Promm: m.2: NOTE: Unable to match-canon προῦμνον (prū́mnon): Unable to match Greek character ο at index 2, Latin character u at index 2: {{m|grc|προῦμνον|tr=prū́mnon}}
Page 87 areopagites: term.2: NOTE: Unable to match-canon ἀρειοπαγῑ́tης (areiopagītēs): Encountered non-Greek (?) character t at index 12: {{term|ἀρειοπαγίtης|ἀρειοπαγῑ́tης|tr=areiopagītēs|lang=grc}}
Page 94 beg the question: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι (to en archē aetīsthae): Unable to match Greek character ῃ at index 12, Latin character e at index 10: {{term|τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι|tr=to en archē aetīsthae||to assume from the beginning|lang=grc}}
Page 134 filatelie: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon ἀτέλεια (atelīa): Unable to match Greek character ε at index 6, Latin character i at index 4: {{term|ἀτέλεια|lang=grc|tr=atelīa}}
Page 194 petitio principii: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι (to en archē aetīsthae): Unable to match Greek character ῃ at index 12, Latin character e at index 10: {{term|τὸ ἐν ἀρχῇ αἰτεῖσθαι|tr=to en archē aetīsthae||to assume from the beginning|lang=grc}}
Page 195 philately: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon ἀτέλεια (atelīa): Unable to match Greek character ε at index 6, Latin character i at index 4: {{term|ἀτέλεια|lang=grc|tr=atelīa}}
Page 243 πῶυ: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon पायु (pāyú): Encountered non-Greek (?) character प at index 0: {{term|sc=Deva|पायु|tr=pāyú||guard, protector|lang=grc}}
Page 310 ܡܛܪܐ: term.1: NOTE: Unable to match-canon μήρτα (mḗtrā): Unable to match Greek character ρ at index 3, Latin character t at index 4: {{term|μήρτα|tr=mḗtrā|lang=grc}}
Page 324 Ἀσία: grc-proper noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Ἀσία (Asiā/Āsiā): Unable to match trailing Latin character / at index 5: {{grc-proper noun|Ἀσίας|f|first|Asiā/Āsiā}}
Page 411 μάτηρ: grc-noun.head: NOTE: Unable to match-canon μᾱ́τηρ (mātēr): Encountered non-Greek (?) character & at index 3: {{grc-noun|ματρός|f|third|mātēr|head=μᾱ́τηρ}}
Page 590 ἐκπίνω: grc-verb.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon ἐκπίνω (pī́nō): Unable to match Greek character ε at index 1, Latin character p at index 0: {{grc-verb|tr=pī́nō}}
Page 665 Κωκυτός: grc-noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Κωκυτός (kōkūtos): Unable to match Greek character Κ at index 0, Latin character k at index 0: {{grc-noun|κωκυτοῦ|m|second|kōkūtos}}
Page 725 δράματα: head.head: NOTE: Unable to match-canon δρᾱ́μᾰτᾰ (''drāmata''): Unable to match Greek character δ at index 0, Latin character ' at index 0: {{head|grc|noun form|head=δρᾱ́μᾰτᾰ|tr=''drāmata''|g=n}}
Page 768 Ἀσιανός: grc-noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Ἀσιανός (Asiānos/Āsiānos): Unable to match trailing Latin character / at index 8: {{grc-noun|Ἀσιανοῦ|m|second|Asiānos/Āsiānos}}
Page 809 Βρετανία: grc-proper noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Βρετανία (Brettaniā): Unable to match Greek character α at index 4, Latin character t at index 4: {{grc-proper noun|Βρεττανίας|f|first|Brettaniā}}
Page 850 Μαικήνας: grc-proper noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Μαικήνας (Malakās): Unable to match Greek character ι at index 2, Latin character l at index 2: {{grc-proper noun|Μαικήνα|m|first|Malakās}}
Page 853 Μεσσάλας: grc-proper noun.page title: NOTE: Unable to match-canon Μεσσάλας (Messalā): Unable to match trailing Greek character ς at index 8: {{grc-proper noun|Μεσσάλα|m|first|Messalā}}

Benwing (talk) 09:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg DoneAɴɢʀ (talk) 20:03, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Benwing (talk) 05:11, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

More Ancient Greek bot issues[edit]

Warnings about missing smooth-breathing signs. I've tried to remove all the ones that were bogus.

Page 11 Appendix:Proto-Germanic/anhulǭ: term.1: WARNING: Text αγκύλᾱ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 19 Appendix:Proto-Indo-European/stéh₂-: l.2: WARNING: Text έστᾱ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 78 Wiktionary:Requested entries (Ancient Greek): term.1: WARNING: Text Άρβανον may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 78 Wiktionary:Requested entries (Ancient Greek): l.2: WARNING: Text Όσροηνῆ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 248 Ἠλί: lang.2: WARNING: Text Ηλι may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 249 Ἡλί: lang.2: WARNING: Text Ηλι may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 534 Τίρυνς: lang.2: WARNING: Text Ᾰ Ε Ῐ Ο Ῠ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 534 Τίρυνς: lang.2: WARNING: Text Ᾱ ΕΙ Ῑ ΟΥ Ῡ may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 669 Λαέρτης: term.1: WARNING: Text ειρειν may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 1188 ἐπιχαιρεκακία: lang.2: WARNING: Text [[w:Aristotle|Αριστοτέλης]], ''[[w:Nicomachean Ethics|Ηθικά Νικομάχεια]]'' may be missing a smooth-breathing sign
Page 1188 ἐπιχαιρεκακία: lang.2: WARNING: Text [[w:Aristotle|Αριστοτέλης]], ''[[w:Nicomachean Ethics|Ηθικά Νικομάχεια]]'' may be missing a smooth-breathing sign

Benwing (talk) 09:16, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done except for the ones at Τίρυνς ‎(Tíruns), which I consider a false positive. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:30, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
@Benwing: I agree with Aɴɢʀ about the issue with Τίρυνς ‎(Tíruns); surely WingerBot should only flag the need for a psile or dasia in tranclusions of {{m}} or {{l}}, not {{lang}}, right? — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:36, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Well, it currently flags every Greek word it processes, regardless of template; that's why I didn't automatically fix up the words. Benwing (talk) 04:17, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
There's nothing wrong with it looking inside {{lang}} too; the issue at Τίρυνς ‎(Tíruns) is simply that the vowels are being used to refer to their sounds in any position in a word; they're not being used as words. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 10:06, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Greek editors, please check the 09:38 Jul 15 changes for User:WingerBot[edit]

@Chuck Entz, I'm so meta even this acronym, ObsequiousNewt, JohnC5, Saltmarsh I ran about 10 entries for my bot to transfer macrons from Latin to Greek. They are dated 09:38, July 15 2015, currently the latest entries. I'm pretty sure they are done correctly but I'd like some of you to give them a once-over just to make sure before I fix all the rest. Thanks. Benwing (talk) 09:47, 15 July 2015 (UTC)

They look right. It could be nice to also modify the genitive for {{grc-noun}} and {{grc-proper noun}} but I can understand that being difficult to code in. —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 16:21, 15 July 2015 (UTC)
@Benwing: Yes, all eleven of those look spot-on. Well done. :-)  — I.S.M.E.T.A. 00:26, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! @ObsequiousNewt I looked at fixing up the genitive but concluded it's too much work to do automatically. I assume there are third-declension nouns where the vowel length actually changes between nom and gen (maybe σῦς?), and even in just the first and second declensions there are bunches of special cases because of the way the accent can move or change its nature between nom and gen, and the inflection templates need to be done as well, etc. What I'm going to do is make a page containing all the nouns fixed up, and maybe eventually someone can go through them manually. Benwing (talk) 04:22, 16 July 2015 (UTC)
OK, I put the list of pages needing to be done here: User:Benwing/grc-need-long-vowels. There are 885 templates listed, although not all need to be done. Benwing (talk) 05:05, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Wiktionary:About Spanish/Todo/Spanish nouns without inflection templates[edit]

Would someone be able to regenerate this Spanish cleanup list? --A230rjfowe (talk) 22:46, 16 July 2015 (UTC)

Changes needed for grc for Module:languages/data3/g[edit]

Can someone please make the following change to Module:languages/data3/g? The entry should properly read

m["grc"] = {
        canonicalName = "Ancient Greek",
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"polytonic", "Cprt"},
        family = "grk",
        ancestors = {"grk-pro"},
        translit_module = "grc-translit",
        sort_key = {  -- Keep this synchronized with el, cpg, pnt
                from = {"[ᾳάᾴὰᾲᾶᾷἀᾀἄᾄἂᾂἆᾆἁᾁἅᾅἃᾃἇᾇᾱ]", "[έὲἐἔἒἑἕἓ]", "[ῃήῄὴῂῆῇἠᾐἤᾔἢᾒἦᾖἡᾑἥᾕἣᾓἧᾗ]", "[ίὶῖἰἴἲἶἱἵἳἷϊΐῒῗῑ]", "[όὸὀὄὂὁὅὃ]", "[ύὺῦὐὔὒὖὑὕὓὗϋΰῢῧῡ]", "[ῳώῴὼῲῶῷὠᾠὤᾤὢᾢὦᾦὡᾡὥᾥὣᾣὧᾧ]", "ῥ", "ς"},
                to   = {"α"                                           , "ε"          , "η"                                                , "ι"                         , "ο"          , "υ"                                , "ω"                                         , "ρ", "σ"}},
        entry_name = {
                from = {"[ᾸᾹ]", "[ᾰᾱ]", "[ῘῙ]", "[ῐῑ]", "[ῨῩ]", "[ῠῡ]", "[" .. MACRON .. BREVE .. "]"},
                to   = {"Α", "α", "Ι", "ι", "Υ", "υ", ""}} ,
}

Basically, the entry-name conversion needs to have raw macrons and breves in it. The main reason is that there are cases like Ᾱ̆̓σῐ́ᾱ (which should link to Ἀσία but doesn't currently) which can have both macrons and breves on the same letter, indicating that the vowel can be long or short. Because of the NFC transformation, the macron over the alpha gets converted to a single-char Ᾱ, but the breve above it remains as a combining character. (A secondary reason is that sometimes people incorrectly write things like Ἀ̄̆σῐ́ᾱ with the macron and breve above the smooth-breathing mark instead of below it, where again the macrons and breves remain as distinct combining chars.)

Similar changes need to be made for pnt, cpg, el:

In Module:languages/data3/p:

m["pnt"] = {
        canonicalName = "Pontic Greek",
        otherNames = {"Pontic"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"polytonic", "Latn", "Cyrl"},
        family = "grk",
        translit_module = "grc-translit",
        sort_key = {  -- Keep this synchronized with el, grc, cpg
                from = {"[ᾳάᾴὰᾲᾶᾷἀᾀἄᾄἂᾂἆᾆἁᾁἅᾅἃᾃἇᾇᾱ]", "[έὲἐἔἒἑἕἓ]", "[ῃήῄὴῂῆῇἠᾐἤᾔἢᾒἦᾖἡᾑἥᾕἣᾓἧᾗ]", "[ίὶῖἰἴἲἶἱἵἳἷϊΐῒῗῑ]", "[όὸὀὄὂὁὅὃ]", "[ύὺῦὐὔὒὖὑὕὓὗϋΰῢῧῡ]", "[ῳώῴὼῲῶῷὠᾠὤᾤὢᾢὦᾦὡᾡὥᾥὣᾣὧᾧ]", "ῥ", "ς"},
                to   = {"α"                                           , "ε"          , "η"                                                , "ι"                         , "ο"          , "υ"                                , "ω"                                         , "ρ", "σ"}} ,
        entry_name = {
                from = {"[ᾸᾹ]", "[ᾰᾱ]", "[ῘῙ]", "[ῐῑ]", "[ῨῩ]", "[ῠῡ]", "[" .. MACRON .. BREVE .. "]"},
                to   = {"Α", "α", "Ι", "ι", "Υ", "υ", ""}} ,
}

In Module:languages/data3/c:

m["cpg"] = {
        canonicalName = "Cappadocian Greek",
        otherNames = {"Cappadocian"},
        type = "regular",
        scripts = {"polytonic"},
        family = "grk",
        translit_module = "grc-translit",
        sort_key = {  -- Keep this synchronized with el, grc, pnt
                from = {"[ᾳάᾴὰᾲᾶᾷἀᾀἄᾄἂᾂἆᾆἁᾁἅᾅἃᾃἇᾇᾱ]", "[έὲἐἔἒἑἕἓ]", "[ῃήῄὴῂῆῇἠᾐἤᾔἢᾒἦᾖἡᾑἥᾕἣᾓἧᾗ]", "[ίὶῖἰἴἲἶἱἵἳἷϊΐῒῗῑ]", "[όὸὀὄὂὁὅὃ]", "[ύὺῦὐὔὒὖὑὕὓὗϋΰῢῧῡ]", "[ῳώῴὼῲῶῷὠᾠὤᾤὢᾢὦᾦὡᾡὥᾥὣᾣὧᾧ]", "ῥ", "ς"},
                to   = {"α"                                           , "ε"          , "η"                                                , "ι"                         , "ο"          , "υ"                                , "ω"                                         , "ρ", "σ"}} ,
        entry_name = {
                from = {"[ᾸᾹ]", "[ᾰᾱ]", "[ῘῙ]", "[ῐῑ]", "[ῨῩ]", "[ῠῡ]", "[" .. MACRON .. BREVE .. "]"},
                to   = {"Α", "α", "Ι", "ι", "Υ", "υ", ""}} ,
}

(NOTE: Updated from previous request; turns out the sort key doesn't need modifications)

Benwing (talk) 18:02, 17 July 2015 (UTC)

Wait, hang on, why does the alpha in Ἀσία need a macron/breve? LSJ has it as being short (although long in Ἀσίς, for reasons that are beyond me.) And why does/should Modern Greek have polytonic characters and length marks? —ObsequiousNewt (εἴρηκα|πεποίηκα) 22:48, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Well in the pronunciation section of Ἀσία is says "the first vowel is short in prose and long in verse". But my change is for macron/breve combinations in general, irrespective of what's done with this particular entry. As for Modern Greek, I'm not sure why it has the sort key for polytonic characters; I assume it may be to support katharevousa words written in polytonic characters, which Wikipedia says was done until 1981. I assume though that macrons and breves are never needed since Modern Greek doesn't have vowel length, so I've removed my suggested changes for that language. @Atitarev, CodeCat, I'm so meta even this acronym can one of you make the remaining changes? Thanks ... Benwing (talk) 09:48, 20 July 2015 (UTC)
@Benwing: Sorry, but I'm not nearly confident enough with Lua to understand or to make these changes. — I.S.M.E.T.A. 17:02, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Template:JAruby (please remove the space between kanji and okurigana)[edit]

I'm hoping somebody can fix Template:JAruby to remove the small half-space between kanji and okurigana. Would that be possible to do? Maybe a better option would be to allow the user to specify if a half-space is desired. For example, I think some people might like to use a half-space to separate words, but I can't think of any good reason to have a half-space between kanji and okurigana since both together form one word. For example, take 咽喉 (のど) (かわ) . Notice the half-space between 乾 and く as well as between が and 咽喉. The only thing that makes it not look so bad is the fact that the ruby on 乾 forces a little more space between it and が. However, notice how there is significantly more space between 喉 and が and 乾 and く than there is between が and 乾. If it wasn't for the space created between kanji and okurigana, I wouldn't have so much of a problem with the spacing automatically created, were it not for instances like  (すべて)草蔬 (くさ) (an example from a quotation where ruby must be used since it is like that in the original text) where the extra space following the kanji looks even bigger due to more ruby kana above the kanji. It looks even worse when in the context of the complete quoted sentence where spacing appears to be erratic:  (かみ)  (いひ) たまひけるは () (われ) 全地 (ぜんち) (おもて) にある實蓏 (たね) のなる (すべて)草蔬 (くさ) (たね) ある木果 (このみ) () (すべて) () とを汝等 (なんぢら) (あた) ふこれは (なんぢ) らの (かて) となるべし. I also have found that it makes no difference to the spacing whether you put the okurigana into the template or enter it outside of the template.  馬太阿房 (talk) 02:30, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

Template:cs-noun[edit]

I would like to ask for adding parameters ma for masculine animate and mi for masculine inanimate gender into the {{Template:cs-noun}}, which is locked. See the discussion. Thanks very much! --Jan Kameníček (talk) 11:41, 18 July 2015 (UTC)

I've added m-an and m-in to the list of allowed genders. —CodeCat 13:40, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks very much! I have just noticed that when the parameter "m" is replaced by e.g. "m-in", it stops adding the entry into the Category:Czech masculine nouns. Could this be fixed too? (Or maybe it could add the entry into Category:Czech masculine inanimate nouns instead). --Jan Kameníček (talk) 15:41, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
Oops, I forgot that part. It's fixed now. —CodeCat 17:04, 18 July 2015 (UTC)
That's horrible, obviously, since animacy is not gender. --Dan Polansky (talk) 07:16, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
"gender" is often used in WT for noun classes, number, etc. So perhaps "gender" is a misnomer and something like "noun property" would be better, but this is the way it is and I don't think it's so horrible. Arabic templates have "genders" like "m-p", for example. Benwing (talk) 07:52, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It's not just in Wiktionary — in linguistics, animacy and inanimacy are classes of gender (see Grammatical gender); they're the only classes some languages have. (Proto-Indo-European, for example, is thought to have only had 'animate' and 'inanimate' classes until 'animate' split to 'masculine' and 'feminine' and left 'inanimate' as 'neuter'.) Other languages, such as Russian, have 'animate' and 'inanimate' classes as well as, overlapping them, 'masculine' and 'feminine' classes. Of course, linguists (and non-linguists) also at other times refer to just the second of those (the division of words into 'masculine'/'feminine'/'neuter'/'common') as "gender" — polysemy strikes again. One could make a case that it would be better to have separate gender and animacy parameters, but it's not incorrect to combine them.
If {{cs-noun}} were expanded to accept the plural as a parameter (is that a goal?), it'd arguably easier to combine them: {{cs-noun|m-an|whatever-the-plural-is}} would be easier to type than {{cs-noun|m|whatever-the-plural-is|an=an}} or, with the need to remember to insert an empty parameter or filler ? when the animacy is unknown to the person adding the entry, {{cs-noun|m|whatever-the-plural-is}} (which would be parsed, as in {{ru-noun}}, as indicating unknown animacy) would be easier than {{cs-noun|m||whatever-the-plural-is}}. But as it is, {{cs-noun}} is so basic that the biggest argument I see in favour of combining them is simply that it's good for the same information to be input in the same way across similar languages, and m-an etc is how other Slavic languages, like Russian and Slovene and Ukrainian, input such information. - -sche (discuss) 16:51, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It's also how language-agnostic templates like {{l}} and {{head}} do it, because it's all handled by the same Module:gender and number. Having Czech templates work differently would just be confusing. If it should be changed, it should be changed globally. —CodeCat 17:00, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@-sche Re: "animacy and inanimacy are classes of gender": Please point me to a specific sentence in the Wikipedia article (W:Grammatical gender) making that claim. I do not find any such sentence there. Ideally, please present me with a source other than Wikipedia making that claim: if the Wikipedia claim is sourced, it should be easy to point to that source. As far as I know, animacy and gender are two distinct grammatical properties, not one being a subproperty of the other. --Dan Polansky (talk) 17:12, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Here are a large number of articles at Google Scholar that discuss animate/inanimate as a form of gender. Rand Valentine, a professor of linguistics at the University of Wisconsin, has a website for the grammar of Ojibwe, where animate and inanimate are described as genders. As for the Wikipedia article on Grammatical gender, it says, "Common gender divisions include masculine and feminine; masculine, feminine and neuter; or animate and inanimate". It also says, "Some authors use the term 'grammatical gender' as a synonym of 'noun class'", but some authors do prefer to use the term "noun class" rather than "grammatical gender" for categories unrelated to sex. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 17:55, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Thank you for that. Some of the hits in your search indeed use such phrases as "animate and inanimate gender", some not so. The search google books:gender and animacy finds many occurrences that suggest agreement with my understanding of gender and animacy as being two distinct features; e.g. "Like gender, animacy is lexically encoded and thus inherent in the noun stem", "Person, Gender, and Animacy", "Consider the basic, inherently lexical qualities of animacy and gender", "including gender, number and animacy", "The specific articles distinguish gender, animacy and number, but in a curiously skewed way.", "There are no gender or animacy distinctions in the third person", and "in addition to agreement properties derived from pronouns, such as person, number, gender, animacy, definiteness and so on.". --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:04, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
From information design standpoint, to label the m-f-n distinstion and the an-in distinction using one term "gender" is most unfortunate, since these are two attributes that combine. Obviously, there is not single attribute with the domain {m, f, n, an, in}. There is no question that we are dealing with two attributes here. To encode two attributes using one template parameter seems unfortunate. --Dan Polansky (talk) 19:11, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Not unfortunate enough for anyone else to have complained about it before. —CodeCat 19:54, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat: That is not what I recognize as a substantive argument. Am I correct in my impression from the editing history of {{ru-noun}} and Template:ru-noun/documentation that the present use of combined values like m-an or m-in is your making? That is, is it correct that is was your design to create the combinations m-an, m-in, f-an, f-in, m-an, m-in, f, m-an-p, m-in-p, f-an-p, f-in-p, n-p? --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:15, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes. Before that, we had no way of indicating animacy at all. And plural was indicated as a separate gender, so for example g=m|g2=p for masculine plural. There was no way to say "masculine plural and/or feminine plural". Surely you remember this too. —CodeCat 20:18, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok, great. Now can you please fill in the X in "These combinations are better design than a separate attribute for animacy because X"? --Dan Polansky (talk) 20:36, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Because there's no practical reason to separate them, the current setup works well for editors and nobody has expressed a desire to change it. Having separate parameters for gender, number, animacy, noun class etc would just make a mess nobody is asking for. —CodeCat 21:04, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
So there is and was no design reason. Above, there is just a list of things free from substance, like "design is good because nobody has expressed a desire to change it". Impressive. --Dan Polansky (talk) 21:09, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
So what you're really saying that if everyone is happy with it and thinks your proposal is just a solution looking for a problem, then they're just wrong? Maybe you should actually poll people about this. —CodeCat 21:21, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── My personal opinion is that there's nothing wrong with including gender, noun class, animacy, number, etc. overloaded in the "gender" slot, given that Module:gender and number already supports it, that most languages (e.g. Arabic, Russian, various other Slavic languages, etc.) do it this way, and that it's easier to have one parameter rather than multiple, esp. as we need multiple gender parameters to support words that can have multiple genders and/or animacies. I also think overloading gender and number (e.g. "m-p") in the gender slot has been around awhile and it's not CodeCat's doing (although I'm not sure about this), and given that we do this, it seems natural to include animacy as well in the mix. I'd rather not have some languages like Czech have the parameters split while other languages (esp. other Slavic languages) have them combined into the "gender" field. Dan, I think if you really object you should open a discussion of splitting gender, number and animacy into different fields on a general basis; whatever we end up doing it should ideally be consistent across languages. Benwing (talk) 09:57, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

What's my doing is introducing "m-p" as a single gender string. Before it, when genders were still done with templates, there were separate templates for masculine and plural, so to combine them you had to specify them with two separate gender parameters. Like {{head|...|...|g=m|g2=p}}. The gender templates themselves had special code to avoid putting a comma between them. There were no templates for animacy at all, so languages with animacy distinctions were just out of luck. —CodeCat 18:10, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Inflected form variants with Lua[edit]

Is there a way to display form variants separated with a slash, such as variant1/variant2 in a single inflection table generated by Lua? Currently, I have to add two inflection tables to show them. Sometimes it is only a single variant in the accusative case, other times all plural forms are variants. See kapható. --Panda10 (talk) 15:54, 19 July 2015 (UTC)

This is how I did it for Georgian. --Dixtosa (talk) 15:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
We do it often for Italian verbs (but with a coma not a slash). See fare for an example. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:59, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, I think commas are the usual separator. - -sche (discuss) 16:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It depends. Some tables put extra forms on a new line. The Finnish ones are a notable example. —CodeCat 16:57, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
@CodeCat Would it make sense to include this functionality in module hu-nominals? I'm not sure how flexible the table structure is to include double forms either next to each other or underneath each other. It might not look as nice as now. I noticed that for long words the table size stays the same on opening and a horizontal scroll bar appears on the bottom to allow viewing the plural column. --Panda10 (talk) 17:24, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
The module is already "ready" to handle multiple forms. On line 462 multiple forms are joined together with <br/>, a line break. So all that would need to be done is adding additional forms to the list of forms for a particular form (that sentence is confusing, but how else would I say it?). —CodeCat 17:29, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
It is not clear how this translates to providing new parameters to {{hu-infl-nom}} to make the multiple forms appear. --Panda10 (talk) 21:53, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
That would be the next step. At least the underlying code in the module supports multiple forms, so that's a start. I would need to know which parameters are needed though. —CodeCat 22:04, 19 July 2015 (UTC)
I added the information to the talk page of the template to keep the requests together: Template_talk:hu-infl-nom#New_parameters_to_display_variant_forms. There is also a module error for words ending in -y and incorrect forms for words ending in -ee. Both are described on the talk page. It would be great if you could take a look at them, as well. Thank you! --Panda10 (talk) 13:58, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

Redundant/etc. manual translits in talk/user pages?[edit]

I've eliminated pretty much all the manual translits from Greek, Ancient Greek, Armenian, Old Armenian and Georgian because these are "override_translit" languages. But I purposely skipped talk pages, user pages, archive pages, etc. because I wasn't sure it was reasonable to modify these pages. The thing is, now categories like Category:Terms with redundant transliterations/grc and Category:Terms with manual transliterations different from the automated ones/grc are full of these pages. Is there a way to hide such pages, like is done in Category:Pages with module errors? Or alternatively should I go ahead and remove the manual translits from those pages? Benwing (talk) 10:36, 20 July 2015 (UTC)

I have shamelessly edited others' talkpages to clean hy and xcl. --Vahag (talk) 19:48, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
I think there is no need to edit pages in any namespace other than the main namespace when there is no difference in the output (one may say there aren't many of those so lets get rid of them once and for all, but we will deal with many similar cases in future, we shouldn't constantly seek to fix irrelevant cases). Regarding the categories, we can restrict the categorization to the main namespace only. Also we can keep these categories as they are and create new categories for terms in the main namespace. We can easily detect the namespace in modules, and add the corresponding category. --Z 16:43, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

A user script to easily manage translations to be checked[edit]

I remember there was one once. Where is it? Was that a real thing or just a fantasy?--Dixtosa (talk) 17:05, 21 July 2015 (UTC)

Did you mean the Category:Translations to be checked? --Panda10 (talk) 17:22, 21 July 2015 (UTC)
Was it User:Kephir/gadgets/xte? - -sche (discuss) 16:33, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
xte, does not ease moving or even removing a translation. --Dixtosa (talk) 20:17, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

"Oldest" list in Category:Russian nouns[edit]

The list of oldest articles in Category:Russian nouns is somewhat broken. I edited ГУЛАГ and it should be in the "Newest" section. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 08:16, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

They must be oldest creations, not updated terms. If it's not the case, then it's the database lag. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 10:17, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
I see. --KoreanQuoter (talk) 10:23, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
It's how long they have been in the category. --WikiTiki89 13:28, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
I changed the list as to display the "oldest" and "newest" entries in the order they were edited (ordermethod=lastedit according to mw:Extension:DynamicPageList (Wikimedia)); which I believe is better. This way, the "oldest" list contains entries more likely to be in need of being updated in some way. A list of "oldest" in the order they were added to the category would be almost always eternally stationary by definition and thus it wouldn't remain very useful after the first time the list is seen. I edited this parameter a few minutes ago, and apparently the oldest/newest are being updated by the system since the entries look random and automatically changing quickly at the moment. I'm going to see if it stabilizes later. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 15:03, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Is there any way to exclude the categories in them? --KoreanQuoter (talk) 15:17, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
I think for "newest", it would be more useful to have the newest additions to the category than the most recently edited. --WikiTiki89 15:38, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Agreed. It allows editors to check the lemma category of a language for any new entries. —CodeCat 15:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
That's OK for me. I edited the list accordingly. Only one problem: Category:Russian nouns and other POS categories look fine but Category:Portuguese citations is broken because the list would have to show citations, not entries (i.e., NS 114, not 0). I tried to fix that with a #switch but it is not working. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 16:09, 22 July 2015 (UTC)


@All,

It should be noted, that lastedit really sorts by the last time the page was touched. In some cases this is not equivalent to the last edit (for example, this includes permission changes, creation or deletion of linked pages, and alteration of contained templates).

lastedit is not what you think. In fact, it is quite useless. But, I ve found some interesting attributes like

  • offset which enables us to do some paging, but it will be impossible to implement this without js though.
  • created which is way more attractive than caegoryadd from a statistical standpoint. With categoryadd, all the lemmas' categories start from 2012 (this is when lemma categories were invented). --Dixtosa (talk) 20:22, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Adding gloss and gender parameters to Module:Alternative forms[edit]

I am requesting that the functionality of gloss= and g= parameters be added to this module, just like in {{l}} and {{m}}. --Vahag (talk) 16:20, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

What does the module do? —CodeCat 16:22, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
See Template:alter. It is used to show the alternative dialectal forms for languages with numerous dialects (e.g. in նապաստակ ‎(napastak)). The gloss parameter at the moment is needed in բալախ ‎(balax). --Vahag (talk) 16:37, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
What does {{alter}} do that {{l}} doesn't? I see it adds the dialect name, but that can be done in a separate template. --WikiTiki89 17:06, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
{{alter}} eats unstandardized dialect names and spits out standardized ones, linked to Wikipedia. Just that. If that can be done in a separate template, I will be happy to use it together with regular {{l}}. --Vahag (talk) 17:18, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
For now, you can do this: {{l|hy|մուկ}}, {{l|hy|մուկը}} {{alter|hy||տփ}} and add whatever parameters you want. --WikiTiki89 17:35, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, I'll do. That is a simple solution. --Vahag (talk) 17:51, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

{{reflist}}[edit]

Reference lists are by default numbered lists. But by using the liststyle= parameter in {{reflist}} one can control how the list is rendered. See w:Template:Reflist#List_styles. Why doesn't {{reflist|liststyle=square}} work in բալախ ‎(balax)? --Vahag (talk) 18:46, 22 July 2015 (UTC)

Because Wiki's reflist does not work too. I don't think it is too important. --Dixtosa (talk) 19:44, 22 July 2015 (UTC)
It does work in Wikipedia. We have probably failed to import some bits of the infrastructure. --Vahag (talk) 10:31, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
They do it with an awful CSS override. Why do that anyway? It destroys the association between superscripts and items in the list. Not everyone can rely on hyperlinks being there. —Keφr 11:15, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok. Is there a way to make the reference list in բալախ ‎(balax) less ugly? Now the list is a mix of numbered and non-numbered items. We should probably allow a ===Notes=== section in addition to ===References===, and gather the numbered references there. This is what Wikipedia does. --Vahag (talk) 12:03, 23 July 2015 (UTC)
That is not what Wikipedia's notes sections are for: they're for actual notes. Numbered citations still go in an area of the Reference section. Similarly, the way to make the reference list less ugly is to (a) list the numbered references first and (b) gradually eliminate the non-numbered items. They should point to the information they're being used to cite. — LlywelynII 14:16, 18 August 2015 (UTC)

Links in changelog summaries aren't having diacritics removed[edit]

Something I noticed, e.g. in the recent WingerBot changelog summary for 99 percent -- links to foreign words in the summaries don't have diacritics removed, like they normally do. Presumably this can't be fixed without changes in the MediaWiki software? Benwing (talk) 22:47, 23 July 2015 (UTC)

I don't think so. You could, however, hide the edit summaries, but that is usually done for vandalism and the like. --WikiTiki89 13:51, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

Are two line emoticons supported?[edit]

I have seen some emoticon combos that take two lines. May such a thing as that be possible in a title, here? Pandeist (talk) 00:33, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

No, but they could probably go in Appendix:Unsupported titles if attested. DTLHS (talk) 03:45, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Yeah, and IIRC we do know how to force a two-line display, because we did it for 〳〵 until we just redirected that entry. So, actually, the answer to Pandeist's question is "yes". - -sche (discuss) 15:01, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
All we did for that was head=〳<br/>〵, which doesn't come out looking too good anyway. --WikiTiki89 15:42, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
I would like to see some proof of attestability first... Equinox 23:53, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

remove junk from Special:WantedPages[edit]

Module:IPA should be updated so that it links to Appendix:Proto-Germanic pronunciation‏‎ if and only if that page exists. Likewise, whatever is responsible for the links to Wiktionary:Korean transliteration et al should only link if those pages eist. Ditto whatever is responsible for Template:nl-categoryTOC‏‎. That would clear out a lot of junk from Special:WantedPages, so that it would be possible to see what pages are actually wanted. An alternative which I have entertained is to mass-create Appendix:Proto-Germanic pronunciation‏‎- and Wiktionary:Korean transliteration-type pages with null content. - -sche (discuss) 20:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

You're really asking for the impossible. The check that looks if a page exists or not, #ifexist in Template code or the equivalent in Lua, already creates a link by itself. So it's not possible to simultaneously check for existence while not creating a link. —CodeCat 20:25, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
There's always the option of putting the information in the data modules so such expensive checks don't have to be made every time a page is loaded. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:23, 24 July 2015 (UTC)
Ok, I've made changes to Module:IPA so that it only includes links to pronunciation pages for languages from a predefined list. That list is defined in the data submodule, Module:IPA/data. It's now up to other editors to fill that list as pages are created. —CodeCat 21:32, 24 July 2015 (UTC)

{{huh}}[edit]

Discussion moved to WT:BP.

{{IPA}} and {{fr-asph}} don't like each other[edit]

This text line creates illegal wiki code in hongre, hanche and others:

{{IPA|lang=fr|{{fr-asph}}/ɔ̃ɡʁ/}}

It shows roughly as this:
IPA(key): (aspirated h)/ɔ̃ɡʁ/[[Category:IPA pronunciations with invalid IPA characters|<>A:G#</>Cg:F//]]
The IPA template or module checks if the template argument contains illegal IPA delimiters (other than // or []) and does not expect other templates. No idea if it should. --MaEr (talk) 15:58, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

@MaEr: I believe the correct usage is {{fr-asph}} {{IPA|lang=fr|/ɔ̃ɡʁ/}}(aspirated h) IPA(key): /ɔ̃ɡʁ/. —JohnC5 17:02, 25 July 2015 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Oh thanks! And I thought it should indicate the position of an H phoneme... --MaEr (talk) 17:09, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Accelerated links not working?[edit]

I no longer get any preload links. Did something change recently? DTLHS (talk) 23:47, 25 July 2015 (UTC)

Pls try again after a hard refresh. It must be me (my attempts to add more links). --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 00:01, 26 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes that must have been it. DTLHS (talk) 00:27, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

Template:es-adv[edit]

Hey all. Annoyingly, entries using Template:es-adv by default class adverbs as being comparable. I'd prefer to have them by default not showing comparability, because at the moment there are plenty of errors. Can someone either unprotect the Template so I can fiddle with it? Or better still, to remove this default themselves? --A230rjfowe (talk) 20:24, 26 July 2015 (UTC)

User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js transliteration field[edit]

I edited User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js so that it would not add the unnecessary sc=Hebr to Hebrew and Yiddish translations. However, this had the side-effect of disabling the transliteration field by default. Is there any way to make the transliteration field enabled by default but not add the unnecessary script code? --WikiTiki89 14:48, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

The script determined if transliteration was necessary by first guessing its script. If it was guessable and different from Latn it displayed the transliteration box.
On 1428th line
toggle(guess && guess != 'Latn', controls.transliteration);
guess is false for Hebrew so it does not show it.
Possible solution
toggle(!guess or (guess && guess != 'Latn'), controls.transliteration);
Also, I believe 1435th line should be
toggle(langmetadata.getScripts(lang).length > 1, controls.script);
instead of
toggle(langmetadata.getScripts(lang).length != 1, controls.script);
For obvious reasons.
Also, isn't Editor.js an annoying name for something that deals with translation tables?--Dixtosa (talk) 19:05, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
No I was wrong, we need a new attribute in metadata for specifying if the transliteration can be automated for each language, or revert all script-related edits and let peace be upon them... .--Dixtosa (talk) 19:15, 27 July 2015 (UTC)
Yes, let's add a new attribute. --WikiTiki89 17:10, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

{{IPA}} and pronunciation appendices[edit]

Why does {{IPA|...|lang=sga}} no longer link to Appendix:Old Irish pronunciation? It's taking me to Wikipedia instead, as if the pronunciation appendix didn't exist. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:56, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

See the section #remove junk from Special:WantedPages above. —CodeCat 12:57, 28 July 2015 (UTC)
Oh, okay. I've added a bunch more languages to the module. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:20, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Edit filters regarding pagemoves[edit]

Special:Contributions/Glory of Space has highlighted that we should probably block users from moving pages to titles with multiple consecutive punctuation characters. If possible, a filter preventing un-auto-confirmed users from making more than e.g. 6 moves in an hour would also seem useful, as would a filter preventing un-auto-confirmed users from moving pages to titles longer than e.g. 30 characters. - -sche (discuss) 20:21, 28 July 2015 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:47, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
Per a request, I've copied en.wp's edit filter 68 "Pagemove throttle for new users" to Wiktionary's filter 44. It is currently set to tag only as I have not copied over the (warning message) and want to leave the design of that and filter settings choices to active admins here. Note that to limit users to 6 moves, the abuse filter limit needs to be 12 actions as moving a page and it's associated talk page count as 2 move actions. Thryduulf (talk) 22:59, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Can we please reject the new changes to the Watchlist UI?[edit]

The gigantic buttons take up the whole screen. --WikiTiki89 20:02, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. I have to scroll through a screen and a third of other mess before I reach my actual watchlist. The buttons should be made normal-size, step 1. Step 2, perhaps the entire section could be trimmed and/or collapsed. Step 3, if we could remove the line "Pages that have been changed since you last visited them are shown in bold." for people like me who have suppressed the bolding, that'd be nice, too. I would suggest shortening MediaWiki:Rcnote and MediaWiki:Rclinks so that they could fit onto one line, if there were a way to put them on the same line rather than on separate lines one after the other. - -sche (discuss) 02:51, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
The "shown in bold" bit is apparently generated by MediaWiki:Wlheader-showupdated, or rather by the mediawiki default content of that page, which we could override by creating the page(?); compare Wikipedia's w:MediaWiki:Wlheader-showupdated and its talk page. - -sche (discuss) 02:57, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
All the top content has some value when one is learning the system, but it is just screen-space-devouring meaninglessness thereafter. Perhaps it could all be collapsed by an active selection in preferences. DCDuring TALK 03:53, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
The buttons seem to have disappeared. Good. - -sche (discuss) 22:31, 2 August 2015 (UTC)

Disabling transliteration in User:Conrad.Irwin/editor.js[edit]

If the only script specified in Module:languages is Latn can the transliteration field be disabled? People apparently like to use it for all kinds of crap that isn't transliteration- see User:DTLHS/cleanup/bad_translit (partial- generating a full report now). Further, could the translation templates generate a cleanup cat in these cases? DTLHS (talk) 23:48, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

I doubt that most of those were entered through the editor. After all, the transliteration field clearly says what it is. The tr= parameter, on the other hand, has a very ambiguous and misleading name. I pointed this out before, and proposed renaming it to xlit=. —CodeCat 23:54, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Fine. I still think adding a category would be a good idea, since it would also let us find languages that need more scripts specified. DTLHS (talk) 00:31, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

inweave and en-verb[edit]

The simple past and past participle differ (inwove, inwoven); I now need to add inweaved as alternatives for both of these. I don't see how Template:en-verb can support this. Any tips? Equinox 02:23, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

It doesn't seem that difficult. I've added it in now. —CodeCat 02:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Extra blank line after {{suffixsee}}[edit]

An extra blank line shows up under {{suffixsee}} in entries. Can someone please remove it from the template? See -szerű. Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 21:11, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

Head|es|noun[edit]

Hi Greasies. Is it possible to make a todo list of all Spanish nouns using head|es|noun? TO find and correct things like this --A230rjfowe (talk) 22:04, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

[2]? —suzukaze (tc) 22:11, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
@A230rjfowe: User:DTLHS/head es noun DTLHS (talk) 22:31, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS: Thanks man, I love you! --A230rjfowe (talk) 22:33, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
I've been working tnrough the list, and came to the conclusion that correcting the entries is a bit boring. I'm sure a cleanup bot could do these kind of edits at 1000 times the speed. --A230rjfowe (talk) 16:12, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Need L2R code in translit for {{l}} and {{m}} and {{t}}[edit]

Things get wonky with Arabic followed by translit in some cases, e.g.

The first case is fixable with an appropriately placed L2R code (U+200E) directly before the left paren. The second case has the translit listed next to the wrong word and is also fixable with an L2R code:

Can CodeCat (talkcontribs) or someone fix the module code to inert these L2R codes?

Thanks.

Benwing (talk) 22:08, 31 July 2015 (UTC)

I've fixed it with a single edit to Module:links, as these three templates all share the same linking code (yay!). Does Module:headword need any changes? —CodeCat 22:26, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
Thanks very much!
You might want to go ahead and fix it for Module:headword; I don't know of any examples where it occurs but if you write
  • ٩ ‎(9)
you still get the same problem.
Also, if you want to fix the second example above, you'd need to insert the L2R code in Module:links even when there's no gloss. Benwing (talk) 23:12, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
You mean, append a LRM to the very end of the output? Or am I placing it in the wrong place to begin with? —CodeCat 23:41, 31 July 2015 (UTC)
It's in the right place, but what I'd like is an LRM at the end of the output if there's no transliteration (i.e. directly after the linked word); that will fix the second example above. Benwing (talk) 03:54, 1 August 2015 (UTC)
Would putting a LRM at the end of the output in all cases, and none anywhere else, work as well? —CodeCat 22:40, 2 August 2015 (UTC)
I think this should work. If it fixes the above examples, then it should be fine. Benwing (talk) 05:21, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

August 2015

Category problems[edit]

This category and this one need to be updated. Thanks Codeofdusk (talk) 00:42, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Categories update automatically, but sometimes it takes a while for the updates to show up. Purging the cache of a page or making a null edit will often update the category, too. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 05:46, 1 August 2015 (UTC)

Eastern Mari code problem[edit]

Here at Witkionary, the Eastern Mari language has the code "chm". At Wikipedia, however, its code is "mhr" (see, e.g., http://mhr.wikipedia.org). This creates an unsolvable problem: when I try to use templates like {{wikipedia}} or {{slim-wikipedia}} to link entries to the corresponding Eastern Mari Wikipedia articles, I get a Lua error message if I use the parameter lang=mhr, whereas, if I use lang=chm, I don't get an error message but the link is not to the Eastern Mari wikipedia (rather, it is to a non-existant namespace "Chm:" in the English Wikipedia). Given this situation, what's a well-intentioned average Wiktionarian to do?--Pereru (talk) 04:54, 3 August 2015 (UTC)

Module:wikimedia languages/data (I think I did that right- someone should check). DTLHS (talk) 04:57, 3 August 2015 (UTC)
I've just checked-- it still has the same problems. Maybe someone could check if that was the right change? --Pereru (talk) 01:09, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
It's only half of the change. By adding it to Module:wikimedia languages/data, you've specified that there's a Wikimedia code that should be turned into chm on Wiktionary. But there's also the reverse process, which is done in Module:languages/data3/c, to specify that the corresponding Wikimedia code for chm is mhr. —CodeCat 01:11, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
The template {{slim-wikipedia|lang=mhr}} gives an error while {{wikipedia|lang=mhr}} does not- why is this? DTLHS (talk) 01:13, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Fixed. —CodeCat 01:21, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
OK, now {{slim-wikipedia|lang=mhr}} works, as e.g. in лум ‎(lum). But this creates a slightly irritating situation: one has to use lang=mhr with transwiki templates to get to the right Wikipedia, but lang=chm (or simply chm) with templates internal to Wiktionary. Why isn't there a single, cross-wiki code for Eastern Mari? Why not mhr also for Wiktionary? Was this just a mistake made at some point, or is there a deeper reason for the two codes? --Pereru (talk) 19:12, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
You need to edit Module:languages/data3/c to add mhr to chm (I can't do it). DTLHS (talk) 19:15, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
[3]. - -sche (discuss) 20:03, 4 August 2015 (UTC)
Was this supposed to make {{slim-wikipedia|lang=chm}} link to the mhr Wikipedia? Because this is still not working -- in лум, I used {{slim-wikipedia|lang=chm}}, and it still doesn't link to the mhr Wikipedia -- it only does if I use {{slim-wikipedia|lang=mhr}}. --Pereru (talk) 07:01, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes, that's what it was intended to do. If it didn't work, I suspect the problem may be with {{slim-wikipedia}}. (Perhaps its guts haven't been kept as up-to-date as the usual templates'.) - -sche (discuss) 16:50, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
The problem exists with {{wikipedia}} too, and has to do with how Module:wikimedia languages's getByCodeWithFallback function works. What currently happens in these cases is:
  1. Look up "chm" as a Wikimedia language code.
  2. If one is found, return that.
  3. If none is found, look for a regular language with that code.
  4. If one is found, return its language code.
Currently, step 4 is the problem. The language's Wiktionary code gets returned, which may not be a valid Wikimedia code. getWikimediaLanguages would return a valid Wikimedia language for the language, if one is available. The difficulty is that getWikimediaLanguages returns not one language, but a list of them. This is to account for languages like Bosnian, Croatian, Serbian which we all merge into Serbo-Croatian. So which item on the list should be selected here? The question "what is the Wikimedia code belonging to Wiktionary language x?" doesn't have a single defined answer. A possible solution could be to select the first item if that's the only one in the list, and show an error that the code is ambiguous otherwise. —CodeCat 18:23, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Or we could do the opposite. Have {{wikipedia}} take a Wikimedia code and deduce the language code from that. --WikiTiki89 18:30, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
That's what it does currently, but Pereru doesn't like that. The fallback is just there for when someone uses "cmn" as the code, since Wikimedia calls that "zh". —CodeCat 18:33, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Ok, looking at it now I'm starting to get quite confused by why this doesn't work. {{#invoke:wikimedia languages/templates|getByCodeWithFallback|cmn|getCode}} > zh, but {{#invoke:wikimedia languages/templates|getByCodeWithFallback|chm|getCode}} > chm. Why is the first returning the right code, but the second isn't? —CodeCat 18:43, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
I found the source of the problem. On line 40 of Module:wikimedia languages, the code if not mw.language.isKnownLanguageTag(code) then checks if a given code is recognised by the software as a valid interwiki code. For "cmn" this returns false, which it should as there are no cmn: sites. But for "chm" it returns true, indicating that this code is valid for interwikis. So it's a problem with the wiki's own configuration. —CodeCat 18:51, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
But you still haven't answered Pereru's earlier question: Why do we use chm, which is the general code for Eastern and Western Mari, to represent Eastern Mari instead of mhr, which is meant to represent only Eastern Mari? --WikiTiki89 18:47, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Ask User:-sche, who made the change in diff back in 2013. —CodeCat 18:53, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
I was following Anatoli's suggestion here and here that "With Mari, I would rather delete mhr and leave the name "Mari". Standard Mari is "Eastern Mari" or "Meadow Mari" and chm is more common." I wasn't aware that it had a Wikipedia, or I would have pointed out that we should just use the assigned Eastern Mari code. We could (should) just switch now... - -sche (discuss) 21:38, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
It doesn't really matter, which we choose. Mari (chm) is a political term but linguistically, it makes more sense to use both "Eastern Mari" and "Western Mari". When they use just "Mari", "Eastern (Meadow) Mari" is implied. There is a Mari Wikipedia but the language used there is "Eastern Mari". --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:03, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
The point is not the name but the code. Given that Eastern Mari has its own code, and that its Wikipedia uses that code, we could avoid all the contortion described in this thread if we just used Eastern Mari's code for Eastern Mari, rather than using the Mari macrolanguage's code for Eastern Mari like we do now. - -sche (discuss) 21:48, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Thai transliterations with tones[edit]

Discussion moved to Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2015/August#Thai transliterations with tones.

Strange difference between entry and preview[edit]

When I look at Eastern Mari пӧрт, the third-person form in the possessed forms table is shown as "пӧрты", which is incorrect: it should be "пӧртшӧ". Strangely, when I edit and preview this page, the correct form "пӧртшӧ" shows up in the table (see [4]). Why the difference? Is it because I just edited the possessed forms template, and some time is necessary for the change to be processed? --Pereru (talk) 07:05, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

When you edit a template, the change doesn't immediately propagate to all of the entries that use it. The system has to run a separate process to update them all, and if other changes have been made to other templates, your changes may have to wait for the others to be done first. In a few cases involving hundreds of thousands of transclusions, I've seen it take weeks. When you click on Edit, the system updates everything while preparing the edit window- so you can force all the changes to be applied by simply clicking on Edit and then clicking on Save without making any changes. This is called a null edit, and it won't show on the revision history. Chuck Entz (talk) 07:59, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
BTW sometimes it never seems to properly update a category unless you force things with null edits. Benwing (talk) 08:22, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Categories do get updated, just much more slowly. --WikiTiki89 11:15, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Even edited entries can take days to appear in a new category to which they have been assigned by a template, say, by a switch. DCDuring TALK 13:18, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Maybe Cyrilic vs. Latin script, or something else?[edit]

In Eastern Mari пӧртeм, the first form in the declension table is also "пӧртeм", i.e., the nominative singular form. However, when I click on it, it creates a new "пӧртeм" page, as if there wasn't one already. At first I thought that the problem was with the "ӧ" character: there is one in both the Latin and the Cyrilic script, and apparently they have different codes. But when I tried changing this character, the situation was still the same: clicking on the nominative singular form "пӧртeм" in the table still creates a new "пӧртeм" page. What the heck is going on here? (NB: in the main lemma page пӧрт, this problem doesn't exist: there are two inflection tables, in the second of them there is a form "пӧрт"; this form links back to the same page, i.e. if I click on it no new page is created.) --Pereru (talk) 11:35, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

If you press Ctrl+F in your browser and search for a Latin-script "e", you will see that you used the Latin-script "e" in the Cyrillic word that should be пӧртем ‎(pörtem). Ctrl+F is a good way to find these problems. --WikiTiki89 11:47, 5 August 2015 (UTC)
Wow, that works. Thanks for the tip! --Pereru (talk) 12:02, 5 August 2015 (UTC)

Category:Chinese terms with uncreated forms[edit]

When using Template:zh-new, sometimes an entry will appear in Category:Chinese terms with uncreated forms even when it has no reason to. An entry can be removed with a null edit, but the point is that some entries have no reason to appear here:

  • 番泻叶's traditional form 番瀉葉 does not exist yet so it belongs in this category
  • 傲嬌 and 傲娇 both exist so the inclusion in this category is odd
  • 梗阻 doesn't even have any alternate forms at all so its presence in the category is exceedingly odd

suzukaze (tc) 08:53, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

JavaScript broken?[edit]

Is it just me or did all the JavaScript stop working suddenly? --WikiTiki89 23:29, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

And now it's back... False alarm, or did someone just fix it? --WikiTiki89 23:30, 6 August 2015 (UTC)
It’s been unstable for a couple of days. — Ungoliant (falai) 23:39, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

This Wednesday, August 5, for hours I couldn't load Wiktionary because of JavaScript, the actual content blinked for a second then the screen went completely blank and permanently loading. When I disabled JavaScript on my browser (Firefox 39.0 on Windows 7) Wiktionary loaded normally (i.e., naturally, as normally as possible, without the benefit of any of our JS gadgets). --Daniel Carrero (talk) 06:32, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Incomplete transwiki[edit]

The transwiki from Wikipedia to Wiktionary of Appendix:List of Proto-Indo-European roots was incomplete, partly due to a cut and paste move and partly because the page import simply didn't capture all the relevant edits, as I described in my message on the appendix's talk page. Is there anything that realistically could or should be done about this now on Wiktionary's end, besides my message there? I'd understand if there weren't any other sensible courses of action, due to the number of revisions involved. Graham87 (talk) 12:47, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

Built in Lua editor[edit]

At one point editing Module: pages brought up an editor that automatically did syntax highlighting and tabs. Now it's just like any other page. Is there some preference that needs to be checked to get this back? DTLHS (talk) 20:34, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

There's a button that looks like "<>" on the top left corner that switches between the plain text editor and the fancy code editor. --WikiTiki89 20:36, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
The top left corner of what? Should there be a button here? DTLHS (talk) 20:41, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Oh, it looks like your JavaScript failed to load or crashed or something (which is why the whole toolbar where the button would have been is missing). Try a cache-bypassing refresh (usually Ctrl+Shift+R). --WikiTiki89 20:44, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Yeah that didn't help- I can get it to work in Chrome but not Firefox. It only works if I log out. So is there a preference I checked to somehow turn it off? DTLHS (talk) 20:48, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
No this is a JavaScript error. I had a similar problem yesterday (see above). You can open the JavaScript console (Ctrl+Shift+J in Chrome) and see if it shows any errors (you might need to refresh with the console open to get the errors to actually show up in the console). Otherwise you're having the same problem I had where the JavaScript just failed to load, and all you can do is just keep refreshing till it works. --WikiTiki89 21:06, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
I haven't seen the editor for at least 6 months, so I guess I'm just screwed. DTLHS (talk) 21:16, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
Does other JavaScript work for you? Do you ever see the toolbar above the edit window? --WikiTiki89 21:18, 7 August 2015 (UTC)
I had unchecked Show the edit toolbar (requires JavaScript) and Enable enhanced editing toolbar in preferences- thanks for the help. DTLHS (talk) 21:21, 7 August 2015 (UTC)

|notrcat=1[edit]

Russian terms with |notrcat=1 shouldn't get into Category:Russian terms needing accents. E.g. козел ‎(kozjól) shouldn't have a stress. The accented form is козёл ‎(kozjól) --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:43, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Sajax library will be removed from MediaWiki on 12 August[edit]

As announced on en.WP on 6 August, the Sajax library will be removed from MediaWiki on 12 August and any scripts which use this library (on en.WP, there were 11,000 users with such scripts) will break. Among other things, the discussion on 'pedia suggests that it will no longer be possible to use document.write and document.writeln. A cursory search of this site for those phrases suggests that ~100 users (of whom about a dozen have been active lately) may be affected, mostly users of the Monobook skin but also apparently e.g. @ZxxZxxZ's User:ZxxZxxZ/common.js. - -sche (discuss) 19:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Will affected users be alerted or will things just break silently? Equinox 20:03, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm not aware of a plan by WMF to alert users. Mr. Stradivarius mentioned that he'd try to mass-message users, though whether he meant globally or just on en.WP I'm not sure. The list he compiled of affected scripts found only eight (fewer than I found) on this wiki, to wit:
enwiktionary        User:Cirt/Gadget-HotCat.js
enwiktionary        User:Conrad.Irwin/edittools.js
enwiktionary        User:Daniel Carrero/Gadget-HotCat.js
enwiktionary        User:Eirikr/edittools.js
enwiktionary        User:Mike Dillon/Scripts/topicCats.js
enwiktionary        User:Prillen/monobook.js
enwiktionary        User:Sack36/edittools.js
enwiktionary        User:Stephen G. Brown/edittools.js
- -sche (discuss) 20:10, 9 August 2015 (UTC)
edittools.js has now stopped working. Can anything be done? @ZxxZxxZ, is it working for you? --Vahag (talk) 13:06, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
It's working for me. --Z 15:00, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, it is working now, thanks. --Vahag (talk) 07:04, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
A phabricator tiket which Eirikr helpfully found and linked to here says that most scripts which were broken by the removal of Sajax can be fixed with a few simple copy-and-paste replacements. The only en.Wikt regulars who have scripts that use the Sajax phrases mentioned in that phabricator ticket are User:Stephen G. Brown in User:Stephen G. Brown/edittools.js and User:Daniel Carrero in User:Daniel Carrero/Gadget-HotCat.js: if either of you finds that your tool no longer works, replace "sajax_init_object(" with "new XMLHttpRequest(" and see if that fixes it. - -sche (discuss) 02:40, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Looking at the best way to link quotes to works at enWS[edit]

Hi. Just was looking at the best way (preferred means?) to link to enWS in the use of {{quote-book}}. In this example I used interwiki rather than a url parameter, so if that is not preferred then please let me know. I regularly trip across archaic and less used words in these older books, and if there was a particular cite/quote template that was configured for easy use of the Wikisources, then I try to get around to use it. — billinghurst sDrewth 06:09, 10 August 2015 (UTC) (please ping me if there is a reply)

Automatic pronunciation (IPA and hyphenation) for Esperanto[edit]

Discussion moved from Wiktionary talk:Main Page.

The pronunciation and stress rules of Esperanto are completely regular. Maybe we could create a template/script for the pronunciation, which automatically inserts IPA and hyphenation which can be used in all Esperanto lemmas. Just like the header and conjugation are now used everywhere. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contributions) 15:46, 10 August 2015 (UTC)

@Robin0van0der0vliet Module:eo-IPA. Needs more test cases. DTLHS (talk) 18:23, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS I added a few test cases, but my test cases also contain stress marks, it would be great if your script could also add them. The stress rules are luckily very easy. Stress is always on the penultimate syllable. There is only one exception to this rule, and this is when the final -o sound is elided and replaced with an -'.

Some examples:
[aˈt͡ʃeti] aĉeti
[alkoˈhola] alkohola
[eu̯ˈropo] Eŭropo
[faˈt͡sila] facila
[hoˈnoro] honoro
[famiˈlio] familio
[famiˈli] famili'

I noticed that some articles used dots to separate the syllables. Do you think this should also happen? I did this in my example to clarify the stress boundaries. Most articles don't do this, probably better to include hyphenation for this.
Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contributions) 20:51, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
How are syllables divided? DTLHS (talk) 21:27, 10 August 2015 (UTC)
Syllable structure in Esperanto is of the form (s/ŝ)(C)(C)V(C)(C). More information about Esperanto phonotactics is here.
In alkohola for example, how would you decide between al-ko-hol-a and alk-o-hol-a, since both seem to follow the rules? DTLHS (talk) 00:55, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I'd actually guess al-ko-ho-la. Most languages put a single consonant between vowels with the following syllable, and split two-consonant clusters (English is the weird language out here). Benwing (talk) 01:51, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I would actually guess that Esperanto is not so rigidly prescribed that syllabification is part of it. Presumably people with different backgrounds might syllabify differently, and this wouldn't cause difficulties. —CodeCat 01:54, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
If that's the case then I guess a pronunciation module isn't possible. DTLHS (talk) 02:19, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
You could just ignore the syllabification and use the ugly but easy strategy of putting the stress mark immediately before the vowel. --WikiTiki89 02:23, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

──────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────── There are syllabification rules for Esperanto given here: [5] You may as well follow them. Benwing (talk) 02:27, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Thank you, I'll try to implement that. DTLHS (talk) 02:31, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
@Robin0van0der0vliet Added a syllabification function, please check new test cases. DTLHS (talk) 05:10, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS It looks pretty good now. But it goes wrong when there are 2 vowels following each other. Syllables always contain one vowel or diphthong, never more or less.
The module also gives an error if you try to get the IPA of a monosyllabic word (such as "mi" which should return "[mi]"). Those words don't have stress.
Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contributions) 11:29, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
@Robin0van0der0vliet Fixed the remaining errors. DTLHS (talk) 15:47, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Two more questions: should the template note the syllable breaks, as on biokomputiko? And should it use [] or //? DTLHS (talk) 16:01, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I don't think we should have syllable breaks in the IPA, as most articles list this separately in the hyphenation. And I also think // would be better now, as I see most lemmas use this method. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contributions) 17:31, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Hyphenation is not the same thing as syllable breaks: hyphenation applies to the written language and and syllable breaks to the spoken language. --WikiTiki89 17:51, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89 Could you give me an example of a difference? I couldn't think of a difference in Esperanto. Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contributions) 21:00, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
As a construction language, Esperanto might not have any differences. Although if you study the actual speech of Esperanto speakers to determine their syllabification, you might find it does not match the standard. --WikiTiki89 03:10, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
@Robin0van0der0vliet I've analyzed all of the Esperanto IPA on Wiktionary and compared it with the module. Anything on that list must either have the wrong IPA, some rule the module isn't accounting for currently, or some irregularity that can't be programmed. DTLHS (talk) 17:43, 12 August 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS There are a few things that are not covered by the module, I see now.

Consonant and the letter ŭ are pronounced differently on its own if you are talking about the letter. (example)
"b" - currently: /b/ - should be: /bo/
"ĥ" - currently: /x/ - should be: /xo/
"ĉ" - currently: /t͡ʃ/ - should be: /t͡ʃo/
"ŭ" - currently: /u̯/ - should be: /u̯o/
"a" - currently correct: /a/
"u" - currently correct: /u/

And there are also a few words on your list that are actually multiple words:
"Rio-de-Ĵanejro" - currently: /riodeʒaˈnei̯ro/ - should be: /ˈrio de ʒaˈnei̯ro/
"kiel vi fartas" - currently: /kielviˈfartas/ - should be: /ˈkiel vi ˈfartas/
"eventa horizonto" - currently: /eventahoriˈzonto/- should be: /eˈventa horiˈzonto/

I also noticed that a few words in that list use allophones. Sounds that are acceptable in Esperanto, but are not the standard form. (source)
Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contributions) 00:40, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. Could you add test cases for any mistakes you see? DTLHS (talk) 00:47, 13 August 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS I added a few more test cases. I fixed the test case for T-ĉemizo already and I fixed the test case for k.t.p. almost.
(Sorry for the late response by the way, I was on holiday in Luxembourg.)
Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contributions) 10:20, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
@DTLHS Maybe you could also create a function which returns the last part of a word, so we could easily categorize words that rhyme in Esperanto.
It should only return the part (in IPA) after the stress and begin with the first vowel.
Examples:
Word IPA Rhymes
knabo (boy) /ˈknabo/ abo
frata (brotherly) /ˈfrata/ ata
Afganistano (Afghanistan) /afɡanisˈtano/ ano
aliancano (ally) /alianˈt͡sano/ ano
ekspediciano (expedition member) /ekspedit͡siˈano/ ano
Robin van der Vliet (talk) (contributions) 18:38, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

TweenkBot discussion[edit]

I want to request the bot flag for User:TweenkBot for these tasks:

  • Adding animacy specifier to Polish masculine nouns (converting 'm' gender to 'm-in', 'm-an' or 'm-pr). An advanced student may look at this and figure out the inflected forms without consulting the full declension table.
  • Removing the Turkish template spam, such as Template:second-person singular imperative of.

I would be using pywikibot's replace.py for these tasks. In the first case, I use an interactive replacement function that prompts me for each noun, while in the second one I just use the regex functionality. --Tweenk (talk) 00:04, 11 August 2015 (UTC)

Per WT:BOT, I think you should create a vote. I don't mind your edits too much on your main account, but it would be better if you requested a flood flag when you're about to run them until you get a bot approved. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:08, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Just a note — please don't run them on the bot account yet, because that account isn't autopatrolled. Thanks —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:10, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
Let's just whitelist the bot (for any manually-reviewed edits; for fully automated edits it still needs a WT:BOT vote). - -sche (discuss) 02:18, 11 August 2015 (UTC)
I created the vote some time ago: Wiktionary:Votes#User:TweenkBot_for_bot_status
Do I also need to announce it somewhere? --Tweenk (talk) 14:12, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

German nouns which have all three genders[edit]

We categorize entries by unusual features like use of Æ, and by inflectional features like uncountability. I think it might be useful to categorize German nouns that can have all three genders. (What about nouns that have two genders? Should 3- and 2-gender nouns be distinguished? Presumably the categories could be added automatically by {{de-noun}} based on whether or noun g3= was present.) According to templatetiger there are six nouns with 3 genders: Dschungel, Jogurt/Joghurt, Wimpel, Lahmacun, Nutella. An alternative to a category, feasible if the number of 3-gender nouns remains very small, is to manually update the usage notes currently in Joghurt, Wimpel, etc (perhaps templatizing the part that talks about which other nouns have three genders, so it can be updated centrally). - -sche (discuss) 23:03, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

There are 96 entries which use g2=, but several of these are erroneous, e.g. Rothaarige, which needs to be split to have two ===Noun=== headers. - -sche (discuss) 23:11, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
For maintenance purposes or checking our completeness against a list of such nouns, it is failrly easy to use CirrusSearch with a regular expression to find g2 and g3 parameters. It does take some skill to get the regex right, but even I have done some simple cases. DCDuring TALK 23:34, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
For determining which entries do or don't use a given parameter of a given template one can simply use templatetiger (as I did above). I just wondered if we wanted a category which would automatically keep up-to-date with new entries, if we thought that "which nouns have all three genders" was something users might be interested in (I think it is), like we apparently (rightly, IMO) think countability is something people are interested in since we categorize by that. - -sche (discuss) 23:41, 15 August 2015 (UTC)
Un/countability has direct consequences for grammatical speech and writing, which warrants the labels. At the time of debate about the category we didn't have Cirrus Search AFAICR. The un/countable categories are too big for most purposes other than counting them, which doesn't have much point either.
Categories that are merely interesting and not too big could be in an Appendix. Perhaps the 2- and 3-gender nouns are of that type. Is there much benefit to the real-time capability? DCDuring TALK 00:10, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

Adding a new POS for poscatboiler[edit]

The documentation is very confusing, and I don't know where I'm supposed to add 'Relational' so that Category:Pipil relationals won't throw an error. (Also, it's never been used as an L3 header before AFAIK, so maybe it needs to be added to something else as well?) —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:29, 16 August 2015 (UTC)

You would need to edit Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas. Why "Relational" as opposed to "Relational noun"? DTLHS (talk) 19:15, 16 August 2015 (UTC)
What are "relationals" anyway? The ones I looked at in that category all look like postpositions to me. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 06:20, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

Noun plural forms[edit]

The entry fuckbags, among others, is categorised in Category:English noun plural forms. I'm assuming there's a bug somewhere in the WT:ACCEL tool --A230rjfowe (talk) 09:54, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

No, it's the intentional result of standardizing how plural forms are treated across languages; see Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2015/August#Category:.28langname.29_plurals_and_Category:.28langname.29_noun_plural_forms. Even in English, "plurals" is a bit ambiguous, because other parts of speech besides nouns have plural forms: the most widespread and native are verbs (he is, they are), but also some French-derived adjectives (manqué). - -sche (discuss) 17:34, 17 August 2015 (UTC)

Category:Plurals with a red link for singular[edit]

...contains entries like Appendix:Proto-Algonquian/-hpanali, although its singular is a blue link. Why? - -sche (discuss) 03:50, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

I'd imagine, because *-hpani doesn't exist, and that's what the code's checking for. Having stuff like {{new ca plural}} in there is irritating also. Renard Migrant (talk) 16:48, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

New feature "Watch changes in category membership"[edit]

recent changes page view with categorization

Hi, coming with this week’s software changes, it will be possible to watch when something is added to or removed from a category (T9148). The feature has been requested by the German Community and is part of the Top 20 technical wishlist. The feature was already deployed to Mediawiki.org on August 18 and it will be rolled out on Wiktionary between 6-8 pm UTC today. It will be available on all Wikipedias from Thursday 20 on, likewise between 6-8 pm UTC. In this RFC-Proposal, you can find the details of the technical implementation. The feature was implemented via a new "recent changes" type for categorization. Through this, categorization will be logged and shown on the recent changes page. The categorization logg in "recent changes" is the data base for the watchlist: When you watch a category, added or removed pages from that category will be shown on the watchlist. The categorization of pages can be turned off in the watchlist preferences as well as recent changes preferences. If you have any questions or remarks about the feature or if you find a bug, please get in touch! Bugs can also be reported directly in Phabricator, just add the project “TCB-Team” to the respective task. Cheers, Birgit Müller (WMDE) (talk) 14:34, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

This is an amazingly useful change and I'm glad it has been added! —CodeCat 14:40, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I can't wait! --WikiTiki89 14:51, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good. Can I turn off everything in recent changes except for category membership changes? Recent changes presents a firehose of information. Real-time, hourly, or even daily monitoring of recent changes is not what I need. Weekly or biweekly monitoring would require some kind of filter of the full recent changes, beyond what I already exclude. I think that might mean custom Javascript, which, except perhaps for tweaking, is beyond my paygrade. DCDuring TALK 15:52, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Sysops are supposed to monitor Recent Changes in order to spot vandalism. It's a drag. SemperBlotto (talk) 15:57, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I suppose if you limit Recent changes to the Category: namespace you'll only see changes there (including actual edits to categories, but there won't be many of those). What I want to know is, will things only show up if they've been added to the category manually (by typing [[Category:blah blah]] at the bottom, or will things also show up if they're categorized by means of a template? —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:27, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
The added functionality just provides an option to hide/show categorisation changes on Special:RecentChanges and Special:Watchlist. It's not possible to show only category membership changes. But I think, Aɴɢʀ's suggestion is a good workaround for that. Kai Nissen (WMDE) (talk) 17:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Given what I can figure out about how this works, it doesn't matter. Think of it like this: whenever the software adds or removes an entry in a category, there's a "trigger" that gets run internally. This new feature merely adds a watchlist ping to one of the things that happens for that trigger. —CodeCat 16:34, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Categorisation by templates is some kind of an edge case. To prevent the watchlist and recent changes from being flooded by the categorisation a widely used template, we limited the new feature to just log the template name and the number of pages embedding it. Kai Nissen (WMDE) (talk) 17:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
@Kai Nissen (WMDE): If I understood you correctly, that makes it utterly useless. I was hoping to be able to watch all the new entries in, for example, Category:Russian lemmas, into which pages are added almost exclusively by {{head}} and related templates. --WikiTiki89 18:21, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
It looks like it doesn't work that way. The recent changes are being flooded with bot edits to {{head}}. This wouldn't happen if templates were ignored as you say. —CodeCat 18:24, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I think what Kai Nissen might have been talking about is what happens when you edit a template, rather than add a template to a page. --WikiTiki89 18:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Exactly. Adding a template to a category results in "Template:Xyz and 1234 embedding pages added to category", while adding a categorising template to a page results in "New Page added to category". Kai Nissen (WMDE) (talk) 14:06, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Can you just clarify one more time: Does that happen when adding the template itself to the category, or when making the template add pages it transcludes to the category? For example, what would the difference be between adding <noinclude>[[Category:Foo]]</noinclude> versus <includeonly>[[Category:Foo]]</includeonly> to a template (assuming there are already pages that transclude the template)? --WikiTiki89 14:14, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
The Category membership changes seem to only appear if one is explicitly watching the Category namespace, not by default (which is principal namespace only), based on my observations at MediaWiki, where it's been installed already. DCDuring TALK 16:37, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
Changes to category membership are always logged as a recent change. Once you add a category page to your watchlist, additions to and removals from that category will appear on your watchlist. The rollout on mediawiki.org is actually not a good example, since the edit (and especially categorisation) frequency is not that high. Kai Nissen (WMDE) (talk) 17:38, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I think there are some quirks with bots and this change. DTLHS (talk) 18:13, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
It looks like the flood of bot edits has stopped, and the link to show/hide category changes is also gone. —CodeCat 18:19, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
And press "Show bots" does not make them show up. Strange... --WikiTiki89 18:23, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I'm thinking it has been uninstalled altogether? —CodeCat 18:24, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
No, non-bot category changes are showing up. --WikiTiki89 18:26, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Wait no, the bot ones are showing up. Maybe all the bots just happened to stop running. --WikiTiki89 18:27, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
One of them is mine, so I think I'd know. :P What is showing up is the regular bot edits. The category changes caused by those edits are not showing up. —CodeCat 18:51, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
It looks like they stopped being recorded after 18:10 UTC. The ones before that are still showing up. --WikiTiki89 19:09, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I haven't seen any changes, by bots or humans, in a couple hours, nor have I seen any option to turn category-watching on or off. - -sche (discuss) 01:43, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Dear all, as you have already noticed, this feature change got reverted on August 20th. After it got deployed to the production systems it became apparent that under some special circumstances it may cause privacy issues: In the case of some types of templates entries in the watchlist and recent changes were showing the IP address instead of the user name. It's good that this came to our attention as the developer team can start to work on a solution for this now. Thanks to all who already tested the new feature and gave valuable comments. It is a big help for the next version of this feature. Kai Nissen (WMDE) (talk) 09:56, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Problems/bugs[edit]

I already see several problems with this extension the way it currently works.

  1. The category changes should be hidden from Recent Changes by default. Not sure about Watchlist.
  2. The extension ignores bot flags. Bot edits should not be shown unless it's explicitly enabled in RC.
  3. Entry names with spaces show up with "_", for example in my recent edit to killer games.

Any more? —CodeCat 18:30, 19 August 2015 (UTC)

The diff link just gives you the useless empty diff of the category. There should be a link to the diff of the page itself. --WikiTiki89 18:47, 19 August 2015 (UTC)
I agree that it should be hidden from recent changes and the watchlist by default. Otherwise, it overwhelms them. - -sche (discuss) 00:53, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Let's make requests on Phabricator to report those issues, so the devs can correct them. — Dakdada 09:09, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
See phab:T109700 for the bots bug. — Dakdada 12:28, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
See phab:T109633 for hiding the category changes by default. — Dakdada 16:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

There seems to be a bug with language code categories. I added Category:en:Perching birds to a couple of pages - if I watch Category:en:Perching birds nothing appears on my watchlist, but if I watch Category:Perching birds it does. You can see this at Special:RecentChangesLinked/Category:en:Perching birds. Keith the Koala (talk) 15:24, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

what is this crap in recent changes[edit]

So I create a new entry like "perillartine" and the Recent Changes shows three items: 1. me creating this (good!), 2. me adding it to the English lemmas category (bad! I didn't explicitly do this, and nobody cares), 3. me adding it to the English nouns category (bad! I didn't explicitly do this, and nobody cares). Who enabled this, and why, and how can we stop it, and how can we stop that person enabling such things in future? Equinox 02:36, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Can you not see the section directly above this one? DTLHS (talk) 02:49, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Oops. I should at least have read the "news for editors" page. Apparently everybody loves this change so it's just me against the world again, as with every version of MS Office since 2003. HOORAY. Equinox 02:51, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
You're not alone. Most people who like it, like it for the watchlist part, but are also complaining about it being enabled by default in recent changes. --WikiTiki89 12:04, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
You can turn it off with the "hide categorization" link, but I don't know if it's possible to make that permanent. DTLHS (talk) 02:54, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
e: there's an option in preferences under recent changes to hide categorization of pages. DTLHS (talk) 02:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
This seems to have fixed it, and my preferences should stick with my login, so I think we're good. Thank you! Equinox 02:58, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Perhaps it's a nice capability, but it doesn't do much for me normally. I use and like the lists that can be placed in a category that show the most recent or oldest additions to the category.
I do like being able to see when something's been added to an entry maintenance category. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 12:45, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Then put the entry maintenance categories on your watchlist. There is really no purpose for this in recent changes. --WikiTiki89 13:03, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Oh, I have. I was talking about the function in general, not its presence specifically on Recent Changes, which I almost never look at anyway. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 13:35, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Editing the Wikipedia link created by {{etyl}}[edit]

Is it possible to directly link to Tat language (Caucasus) by {{etyl|ttt|xyz}}, rather than to the disambiguation page? --Vahag (talk) 16:53, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I'll create this feature. It is currently available for etymology-only languages, but not for normal languages. --WikiTiki89 17:29, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done. You can now do this. --WikiTiki89 17:41, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
The same may need to be done with language families. --WikiTiki89 17:43, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, it's working. While we're on the subject of Tat, can you figure out why in Google Chrome a custom font is applied to Tat when sc=Latn, as in ձմերուկ ‎(jmeruk)? The same happens to Kurdish in Latin (code ku). The custom font is Segoe UI. My default is Arial. It does not happen to other multi-script languages, such as Udi. --Vahag (talk) 22:18, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
I have no idea. I've investigated this before for another language (I think Chinese) and just did again now. Without the lang="ttt" CSS parameter, this does not happen. But I cannot find anywhere how these language codes are associated with any CSS properties. --WikiTiki89 22:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
Sometimes browsers try to outsmart us. Here's an example of Japanese text marked with Latn script: Watch my font!. —CodeCat 22:31, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Miscapitalized labels[edit]

Discussion moved from WT:T:TODO.

Is it possible to find cases like this? - -sche (discuss) 19:26, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Couldn't the module just automatically test if the lower cased version of the label exists? DTLHS (talk) 19:32, 20 August 2015 (UTC)
That would also work, especially if we decide that the chances of labels being distinguished by capitalization (e.g. "art" meaning 'art' but "Art" being a dialect of, say, Hindi) are small enough to be negligible, which they probably are. - -sche (discuss) 20:20, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

This is an alternative form of a red link[edit]

Whatever we're doing to catch plurals with a red link for singular, could we also do it for "forms of" nonexistent lemmata, like logopœia (which currently links to a redlink, logopoeia). - -sche (discuss) 04:06, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

Changing Module:form of would probably be the most effective for tracking such cases across many templates. —CodeCat 06:30, 21 August 2015 (UTC)

No-L2-L3 tag for simplified Chinese redirects[edit]

My recent creation of 官网 was flagged with a "no-L2-L3" tag. For simplified Chinese words, it is customary to simply redirect them to their traditional counterparts, so any edit that uses {{zh-see}} should be exempt from the tag. -- King of Hearts (talk) 23:40, 22 August 2015 (UTC)

:Template:nn-noun-comireg[edit]

Is it possible to adapt this template for Bokmål? Donnanz (talk) 20:01, 23 August 2015 (UTC)

Template:ja-def[edit]

Could {{ja-def}} be updated to use the .Jpan CSS class? (I'd give it a shot but the template is locked) —suzukaze (tc) 05:38, 24 August 2015 (UTC)

Missing plurals[edit]

A few months ago, I tried to catch missing English plurlals, but failed. At Module talk:en-headword I explained what I wanted to do. Could someone make it work, please? --A230rjfowe (talk) 10:07, 25 August 2015 (UTC)

Module error cropping up in many places[edit]

The following appears in many places, including at the top of this page and in sections preceding this one: <red>Script error: The module returned a value. It is supposed to return an export table.</red> —This unsigned comment was added by DCDuring (talkcontribs) at 00:24, 26 August 2015 (UTC).

I checked recent changes of the Module namespace, but no severely important module has been modified. Is there something wrong with the server? @Developers: It would also be helpful if this error message mentioned the name of the module that failed to return an export table. --WikiTiki89 00:26, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I discovered it using Template:temp. DCDuring TALK 00:30, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I wonder if anyone will fess up. DCDuring TALK 00:31, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
The problem seems to be fixed, with no new changes in the Module namespace. It was clearly a server-side software bug. --WikiTiki89 00:34, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
There definitely needs to be more communication between the developers/deployers and us. --WikiTiki89 00:37, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Now that the problem is fixed, could someone with a bot do null edits on the 11,000+ pages in Category:Pages with module errors? As far as I can tell, there doesn't seem to me any change in the number of these aside from the results of the null edits I've done by hand. I'm guessing that, since there are no actual edits involved, the system isn't going to do anything with these by itself. I cleared all the category pages and a few of the mainspace entries, but there's obviously no way I can clear 11,000+ more. I should add that, since null edits don't affect the content of the entries, the edit histories, nor recent changes, even an unauthorized bot can do this with no ill effects or repercussions. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 03:24, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
I'll do it if no one else is already (in which case let me know so we don't conflict). --WikiTiki89 04:04, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
By the way, what is the rate limit? I keep reaching it. --WikiTiki89 04:07, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
In case anyone cares, I figured out that the rate limit is 30 edits per 60-second interval. --WikiTiki89 06:32, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Are you sure about that rate limit? When using pywikibot, I set the delay to its mininmum (1 second) and I get about 1 edit per second. Benwing2 (talk) 06:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
You have an approved bot. I don't. --WikiTiki89 07:05, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Ah. OK. Benwing2 (talk) 07:08, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done --WikiTiki89 12:54, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. DCDuring TALK 13:27, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

User contributions oddity[edit]

If I try to list the "user contributions" for User:Werdna Yrneh Yarg I get a blank page, the little rotating symbol in the top left and no response from Wiktionary. For anyone else it works properly. Any ideas? (Google Chrome under Windows 10) SemperBlotto (talk) 20:10, 26 August 2015 (UTC)

Have you tried resetting your cache? — Ungoliant (falai) 20:12, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
Yes. SemperBlotto (talk) 23:34, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
It works for me on Firefox on Windows, so I don't know what's going on; sorry. :/ Almost all of his edits are to talk pages; his edits to the main namespace stopped on the 11th and consisted of edits to toad, baby, bad, adze, neap, tup and neap tide. - -sche (discuss) 23:57, 26 August 2015 (UTC)
It works OK with Microsoft Edge - strange. SemperBlotto (talk) 00:10, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
I have the same problem (Windows 7, 10 + Chrome). Interestingly, when "Number of edits to show by default:" in the preferences is set to 50 (default) the page loads fine.--Dixtosa (talk) 17:47, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Okay for me in Chrome on Win7. Equinox 17:54, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

This edit makes his page unloadable, apparently its summary's format being alien to MediaWiki is the culprit. @User:Werdna Yrneh Yarg, how did you make this edit? --Dixtosa (talk) 18:08, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

So sorry - I have just returned from leaflet distribution on the Lizard, 20 minutes ago. I believe that the asterisk may be the culprit, which I have now removed, because it no more applies. Shall avoid using that symbol in future, if it might cause problems. Removed asterisk (that relates to nothing visible), as I have found this borrowed word in Cornish. More seriously though, this may have caused the problem - very sorry about this. I could not access this talk page at first! Sorry to waste your time; but should any problem re-occur, please advise me, so that I can sort it promptly. Am now suspicious that someone is using a cyber attack - I hope that I am wrong. Werdna Yrneh Yarg (talk) 21:07, 27 August 2015 (UTC)Andrew

Extend TweenkBot voting a bit?[edit]

See Wiktionary:Votes#User:TweenkBot_for_bot_status. The expiration of this vote was listed as August 25. I think we need to extend this vote -- up till the nominal expiration it only got 2 votes, both support but one of which was a support-with-conditions, which Dan seems to be doing now for all votes of this sort. I just submitted a (late) support vote and it would be nice if we could get a couple more people to weigh in one way or another so the vote is meaningful. Benwing2 (talk) 08:47, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Don't votes normally last for a month? Why are bot votes (or just this bot vote?) initially set up to be shorter, anyway? - -sche (discuss) 17:27, 27 August 2015 (UTC)
Because people are eager to use their bots. --WikiTiki89 19:28, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

bad language code?[edit]

In ку́рва ‎(kúrva), the {{cx|vulgar|lang=bе}} produces the error message The language code "bе" is not valid. —Stephen (Talk) 11:16, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

The language code was using Cyrillic е instead of Latin e. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 11:27, 28 August 2015 (UTC)
Ah. That used to happen a lot, but it’s been a while since I saw it. Thanks. —Stephen (Talk) 12:08, 28 August 2015 (UTC)

Character codes in HTML[edit]

  1. I have used "& #0134;" in a number of places to represent a "dagger" (†), it has stopped working but "& #8224;" still works - what has changed? Is it temporary?
  2. Is "& mdash;" (for —) a recommended syntax or should we just use the character?   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 06:58, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
    &#0134; is equivalent to U+0086, which is a C1 control code for "Start of selected area", so I'm surprised it ever worked for you, and not surprised that it doesn't work now. You can also write &dagger; to get † just as you can type &mdash; to get —, but AFAIK it's always preferable to just insert the character itself directly, as it makes it easier for other editors to read the contents of the edit box. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 07:08, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
What Angr said. Both of these characters can be inserting from the edittools below the edit window, and for the mdash you can also type {{subst:mdash}}. - -sche (discuss) 07:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
In Appendix:Greek verbs and a few other places, "& #0135;" and "& #0135; & #0135;" are also (as one might expect) not reolving into characters; what symbol(s) were they intended to represent? - -sche (discuss) 07:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I think the double dagger ‡. In Windows, if you type Alt+0134 (using the number pad, not the numbers running along the top of the keyboard) you get † and if you type Alt+0135 you get ‡. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Appendix:Greek verbs also had some instances of &#0151; for the em dash. There seem to be a lot of Greek verb pages with these codes on them. Could someone with a bot go through Wiktionary and change all instances of &#0134;, &#0135; and &#0151; to , , and respectively? I wonder if there are others (potential ones include &#0138; for Š, &#0140; for Œ, &#0142; for Ž &#0150; for – (en dash), &#0154 for š, &#0156 œ, 158 ž, and &#0159 for Ÿ). These are old ASCII codes; see http://www.ascii-code.com/ and scroll down to "The extended ASCII codes (character code 128-255)" for the ones causing the trouble: the ones with decimal codes 128–159 are not in sync with Unicode points. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 09:45, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
I've replaced them everywhere I could find them as of the July 2015 database dump. - -sche (discuss) 04:28, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Thanks, -sche. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 08:57, 2 September 2015 (UTC)
Thank you all. Obviously a "system characteristic", when I looked at {{el-T-Vs}} a few hours ago &#0134; was still showing the † - but not when viewed in preview. Anyway I'll amend my ways and use the wanted character. And thanks to Aɴɢʀ for your editing.   — Saltmarshσυζήτηση-talk 10:19, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Bug regarding the Pronunciation section of Chinese entries[edit]

I have a bug to report. Basically there is a bug with the pronunciation template that is commonly used in Chinese entries. See this link for an example that doesn't have the bug: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E8%89%AF#Pronunciation

At the top right corner of that template, there is a button which says "Expand". The bug is that this "Expand"-button gets moved down if the entry also has links to Wikipedia. See these two entries: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%B0%B4#Chinese

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E7%8B%BC#Chinese

VulpesVulpes42 (talk) 11:22, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Reconstructed and appendix-constructed languages in Template:t, etc[edit]

Previous discussion: Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2015/January#Can we insert proto-words into translation tables?

I'd like uses of Template:t, and if feasible also main-namespace uses of Template:head, to fail (or at least categorize into a cleanup category) when the language code supplied has its type set to reconstructed or appendix-constructed. This would prevent people from adding Klingon (etc) terms to translations tables, as in revenge, head and new. - -sche (discuss) 18:08, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Done. —CodeCat 19:35, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. So far only a dozen entries have shown up in Category:Pages with module errors, like channel (had a proto-language in the translations) and deer (had a Sindarin translation). - -sche (discuss) 19:58, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

Oldest/newest entries not working for reconstructed languages[edit]

@Daniel Carrero See Category:Proto-Germanic language. The lists remain empty. —CodeCat 20:33, 29 August 2015 (UTC)

@CodeCat That is because the list of oldest/newest entries in {{poscatboiler}} has a namespace= parameter. Usually the value is 0, I've made a workaround so that the value is 114 in categories named like Category:English citations and Category:English citations of undefined terms. Apparently it needs some kind of additional workaround so that when the language code is reconstructed (type = "reconstructed" according to Module:languages/datax) the namespace should be 100 (appendix). --Daniel Carrero (talk) 20:46, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
We should really get mw:Extension:DynamicPageListEngine installed. It allows multiple namespaces, and is callable natively through Lua. —CodeCat 21:41, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
Sounds good. I'd support that. --Daniel Carrero (talk) 21:55, 29 August 2015 (UTC)
As would I. How do we go about getting it? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:44, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Appendix:I am (ethnicity): Burmese[edit]

The pipes in the Burmese transliteration (<span lang="" class="tr">kywantauka.ba.mapa||</span>) are being interpreted as wikicode for a new table cell. —suzukaze (tc) 01:08, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Since User:Angr made the edit to Module:my-translit that caused this, maybe he can suggest a solution. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:56, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
I replaced the pipes with HTML entities, but I'm not sure what's going on with the testcases since they don't have | and || as the expected output. DTLHS (talk) 03:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
Now they do. I forgot to change the testcases when I changed what ၊ and ။ transliterate as. They used to transliterate as comma and period respectively, which was problematic because we also use the period to transliterate one of the tones, so I changed it to | and ||. —Aɴɢʀ (talk) 06:30, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

Bot task: Category:Persian plurals[edit]

This is the lone holdout in the plurals categories, with 88 entries. The few I've checked were originally created a number of years ago with the {{fa-arab}} script template instead of a headword template, the words "Plural form of " hard-coded, followed by another {{fa-arab}} with the singular, and the category also hard-coded. MglovesfunBot and MewBot swapped out the script templates, but not with the templates needed to make these into standard entries. Here's a typical example (already fixed) of what comes after the noun header:

'''{{lang|fa|مبل‌ها}}'''

# Plural form of {{l|fa|مبل}}

[[Category:Persian plurals]]

  • That obviously needs to become:

{{head|fa|noun plural form}}

# {{plural of|مبل|lang=fa}}

without the hard-coded category. They'll still be lacking transliteration and possibly other language-specific attention- but at least they'll be visible in the right categories. Chuck Entz (talk) 06:00, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

It's finished, I did it manually. Enosh (talk) 16:41, 30 August 2015 (UTC)
If I had known you were going to do it by hand, I would have done some of it myself. Oh, well. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 21:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

{{calque}} does not accept etymology-only language codes[edit]

See безволие ‎(bezvolije). --Vahag (talk) 22:16, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that the template tries to combine {{etyl}} and {{m}}, but etyl uses etymology-only languages, and m shouldn't. I think someone is going to have to split the lang parameter into one for etymologies and one for linking to terms. Either that, or it will have to know what the regular-language equivalent is for a given etymology-only language, as in "la" for "ML.","NL.", etc. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:43, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
That information is already available through the "parent" value in the etymology language. So if the template is modified to use that if it detects that the code is an etymology code, then it should work. —CodeCat 02:14, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Creating templates that drop the last vowel of the verb[edit]

In Ojibwe, 1st person and 2nd person conjugations drop the final vowel if the verb ends with a short vowel (a,i,o). The most basic form and the most common form in dictionaries is the 3rd person. Take a simple verb, like Giiwe: "S/he goes home", Nin-giiwe: "I go home". Wiisini: "eats" is a verb that ends in a short vowel. Thus: Wiisini: "s/he eats", Ni-wiisin "I eat". How do I create a template that drops the final short vowel without creating a unique template for each entry? Ojibwe doesn't have very many entries or users, so, I've been trying to add some uniformity and templates to it, despite my lack of lua skills. MacBobart (talk) 23:33, 31 August 2015 (UTC)

This would need Lua though. Templates can't do any text processing other than sticking bits together. I wonder if there is a need for a Lua module that exposes and translates the Lua string functions so that templates can use them? —CodeCat 23:40, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
I thought that's what the module that Kephir renamed to "Ugly hacks" was for. I suppose that, for someone who can code in Lua, it's bad programming practice to piecemeal one's code like that, rather than moving it all to a module, but for those who only know templates, a string-function toolkit can really come in handy. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC)
As CodeCat says, templates can't remove or replace anything within a parameter, so you have to divide the word into the invariant part and the part that changes. In other words, you have a parameter for the part of the stem before the vowel, and another for the vowel that gets dropped. Then it's just a matter of creating the logic that adds the vowel in some forms or nothing in the forms that are truncated. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:35, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

September 2015

Double RSS posts[edit]

From WT:FEED:

Hello. I, the only person who uses RSS, would like to mention that each WotD seems to get posted twice on your feed (https://en.wiktionary.org/w/api.php?action=featuredfeed&feed=wotd&feedformat=atom). While I'm here, this also seems to happen to the Commons PotD feed (https://commons.wikimedia.org/w/api.php?action=featuredfeed&feed=potd&feedformat=atom&language=en) but not the FWotD feed. Anyway, sorry if this is the wrong place for technical complaints or if saying 'feed' too many times has made you hungry. Thanks! EDIT: FWotD doing this too btw. —This comment was unsigned.


User:Yair rand/newentrywiz.js should not link to elements in a head word[edit]

This now redundant (or usually redundant) as headword modules automatically link to individual words of multi-word terms. Renard Migrant (talk) 15:01, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Fixed. --Yair rand (talk) 21:14, 1 September 2015 (UTC)

Latvian adjectives with missing headers[edit]

There are about 2300 Latvian adjective entries with two headword lines, for two homographs, where the second headword-line is not preceded by a header. It should be straightforward to find and fix all such entries: find adj}}\n\n\{\{head\|lv\|adjective form}} and replace }\n\n\{\{head\|lv\|a with }\n\n===Adjective===\n{{head|lv|a (some entries have been fixed since the last database dump; the initial }\n\n\{ weeds those out). (If needed I can supply an outdated list of ~2600 such entries, of which a few hundred have been fixed.) Can someone with a bot do this? - -sche (discuss) 04:56, 2 September 2015 (UTC)