Wiktionary:Grease pit

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Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, Lua modules, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Find information and helpful links about modules, Lua in general, and the Scribunto extension at WT:LUA.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives edit


March 2018

Tabbed languages + MediaWiki update[edit]

Has anyone else problems with tabbed languages and MediaWiki edit urls? When I save a page ?action=edit is still part of the URL and messes up the tabs. I have to remove the "edit" part and reload the page (just reloading the page will go back into edit mode). I suspect this behaviour was introduced with a recent MW upgrade. – Jberkel 09:10, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Empty arguments to {{suffix}}[edit]

I'd like to be able to give an empty argument (or -) to {{suffix}} together with a corresponding |argN= parameter to produce an effect similar to {{m|und||*term}} in order to discuss hypothetical suffixes. Could someone make this happen? Crom daba (talk) 00:05, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

@Crom daba: I enabled that in the suffix template (though not the other affix templates yet): {{suffix|und|base|alt2=*hypothetical suffix}}base +‎ *-hypothetical suffix. You leave parameter N + 1 empty and put in the corresponding |altN= parameter instead. — Eru·tuon 00:24, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Terms by script[edit]

I noticed we don't have Category:Terms needing native script by script or Category:Cyrillic terms needing native script. Any chance someone might be able to put that together? --Victar (talk) 00:40, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Template:hot word throws error for lang=mul[edit]

Translingual once more gets no respect. See [[Tupanvirus]] for example of module error resulting from use of lang=mul. But it's a more general problem than just one template. DCDuring (talk) 17:52, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

You have to use lang as an explicit named parameter. DTLHS (talk) 18:00, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, there's no secret conspiracy against Translingual. But we should try to switch over this kind of template to using the langcode as the first positional parameter, in line with many other templates. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:50, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
It wouldn't be a shock if "mul" were unintentionally neglected. I thought I had tried lang=. Sorry. DCDuring (talk) 21:51, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Have edit summaries got longer?[edit]

When I add to an entry I'm in the habit of pasting my additions into the edit summary box, to show exactly what I did. The box would cut them off short. Now it's allowing far more characters, and I might be clogging up the Recent Changes a bit. See e.g. [1]. Does anyone know why this changed? Equinox 17:53, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

See here. I think that such copy-pasting is a waste of time, to be honest; if someone cares, they can check the diff very quickly (almost instantaneously if they're a logged-in user who's got the proper gadget). —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:53, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Help in installing the gadget[edit]

All are a good day! I'm a sysop of the Belarusian Wiktionary please help me with installation on my wiki this gadget. --OlegCinema (talk) 14:50, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

@OlegCinema: Прывітанне. You mean the Belarusian wiktionary? The translation adder is not meant to be used on Wikipedia (indeed, I don't see how it could). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:24, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Да, wiktionary. Я перепутал. Не Википедия --
@Per utramque cavernam: Sorry, I confused. Not Wikipedia. --OlegCinema (talk) 09:03, 5 March 2018 (UTC)


This template, which invokes Module:linkbar, is used at WT:WL, where it pings the user whose name is linked to. It seems undesirable, or at best unnecessary, to bring this process to the attention of the person under deliberation. Can we prevent the ping from occurring? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:20, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

FWIW, I don't remember getting pinged when the suggestion was made, but only when my user rights were changed. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:27, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
I might be mistaken, then! Want to do a quick test? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:34, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Yes, go ahead. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:37, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Well, I did get pinged. I'm gonna check my ping history because I'm curious now. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
I got pinged every time. I must be senile... --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:46, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
A user will be pinged when their username is linked to. If you don't want the pings you need to remove the link. DTLHS (talk) 19:15, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Go ahead. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 08:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam, is this your only ping from me? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:49, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge: Yes. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:13, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

A more drastic Lua memory solution[edit]

So, we've significantly reduced the number of pages with memory errors now, but do and wind still are overflowing, despite now being in the memory-intensive entry list. I was wondering whether another solution might alleviate our difficulties. It is often the pages that contain many translations that cause a problem and as the project grows, the number of these pages will only increase. For these giant pages, I was thinking that we could move there translations to a subpage and leave the translation box as a redirect. Unfortunately, this feels like a kludge to me.

A more powerful solution might be to make a "Translation" namespace with an associated tab like we have for Citations. With this system, we could remodel MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder.js to edit this Translation namespace (if that is actually possible. @Dixtosa?). Then you have the translation boxes call a Lua module that checks the size of the Translation page. If it is above a certain threshold, you don't render the contents but instead leave a link. Some details would need to be worked out, like how to represent the data on the Translation page to be parse back to the mainspace, but this would lower the amount of memory, as it would not actually load all the linking and language data if the translation section is deemed too large. Of course, we'd also have to get a new namespace, etc. and the programming changes would not be insubstantial. Unless we do something, however, we're steadily going to run out of memory in all the most semantically or orthographically common entries. @Chuck Entz, Metaknowledge, Erutuon, Jberkel, Rua, -sche, Vriullop, TheDaveRoss, DTLHS. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 12:21, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Another, less extreme option would be to just have the translations be flat wiki markup instead of calling modules (without much benefit, really). I am not sure why we have to look up a language code for every translation which exists on the site. The transliteration magic is nice, but that only needs to happen once, and after that it could easily by "flattened" by a bot so that it doesn't need to make module calls again afterward.
Re translation namespace, there are a lot of problems which would need to be solved before this would work. Many terms have lots of senses to be translated, so figuring out which portion to transclude, and keeping it in sync, is one major hurdle. We should also test whether the memory usage of a transcluded page is counted against the total for the page, otherwise this may actually increase Lua memory usage. - TheDaveRoss 12:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
@TheDaveRoss: I imagine the memory usage of fetching a page's data (local content = mw.title.new("Translations:" .. PAGENAME):getContent()) is comparable to having the bytes in the entry itself. The issue would be parsing through the data to find the appropriate bit to render. For my money, the most effective long-term solution would be to move all the translations to a Translations namespace and then leave redirects in the mainspace. This keeps the memory out of the entry and gives you all of your fancy rendering. The problem would then be having to go to a different page to look at the translations. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 12:42, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
I missed the portion where you said we would not transclude very large pages, which would certainly reduce resource usage. - TheDaveRoss 13:53, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
There's an easy way to check the basic principle: edit this subpage and look at the memory usage, then edit the main Grease pit page and compare its memory usage. The main Grease pit page uses about three times the memory of this one, so I suspect the entire memory usage of the transcluded page is included in the transcluding page. Chuck Entz (talk) 13:22, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Our biggest translations tables currently include under 3000 languages. We have codes for roughly 8000 languages. Your idea is interesting, and might even have other utility — it reminds me of the proposed Collocations namespace, which would've allowed, as this also theoretically could, collecting translations of common collocations of words that are SOP but that translation dictionaries often include. However, I suspect that, even if in a separate namespace, translations tables will eventually run out of memory. (I suppose this could be tested by generating a translation table with some nonsense string written in each language in each of the scripts that the language has. That last part is important.) I also think that, conceptually, something more like what The Dave Ross proposes might be more desirable. In particular, my (testable/falsifiable) understanding has been that subst:ing in transliterations, and just accepting them and ceasing to compare manual to automatic transliterations, might significantly reduce memory usage; subst:ing in language names would also seem useful. - -sche (discuss) 15:17, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Audio playback cut off too early[edit]

See Talk:Plymouth. I can reproduce the problem in current Google Chrome. Equinox 18:15, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I have the same problems, and in following it upstream it appears that it is not a local problem. My guess is that MW has versions of the file for downloading and versions of the file for playing in browser, and the in-browser versions are somehow broken. The recording is also not very good, maybe someone can replace it. - TheDaveRoss 13:39, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Inputbox (or something similar) passing text input to a module for processing ― possible?[edit]

Something similar to mw:Extension:InputBox: could be a string or paragraph box, that passes the text input to a backend module for processing upon button-clicking, and returns a processed output. Is this possible? Any guide on how to write this would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! Wyang (talk) 10:33, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I did it to test a module: ca:Module:ca-general. The output of a wiki inputbox can only be obtained as a page name, so it edits a subpage of a sandbox showing the result in the editintro. --Vriullop (talk) 17:10, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, thanks. I think I was expecting more than the MediaWiki preloader, as in whatever is written in the inputboxes (e.g. 'язык') can be passed to a module, to produce an output like 'jazyk'.
I remember @Dixtosa (sorry to disturb your wikibreak!) mentioned that this may be possible (?) at Wiktionary:Grease pit/2016/November#Recent searches for non-existent entries. It would be very useful if it is indeed feasible.
I'd like to learn a bit of coding for this, although not quite sure where to start. Wyang (talk) 22:42, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm curious: would it be something of this kind, or of this one? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:56, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, something similar. It doesn't have to be limited to transliterations; could also be IPA, script conversion, text segmentation, translation, etc. Wyang (talk) 23:10, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

@Wyang: Something that I'd find invaluable would be a small search engine for "language name > language code" and the reverse. I suppose it would use Module:languages/code to canonical name and Module:languages/canonical name to code. I think that's a similar tool from a conceptual point of view. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: The xte gadget does that already. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:20, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Indeed! Thanks. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:30, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
This seems relevant. —suzukaze (tc) 23:09, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks @Suzukaze-c! I will very slowly investigate... Wyang (talk) 23:12, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: Sorry, I forgot to answer. I'm confused :3 How should I use this? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 23:58, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
This doesn't do anything, right? (did you get my second ping, btw?) --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:00, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Ah, I was replying to Wyang's original post. (;・∀・) (I don't know what you mean by "second ping"...) —suzukaze (tc) 00:07, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
The search results are for scripts that seem to have the ability to render wikitext. I don't know what CodeLinks specifically does. —suzukaze (tc) 00:13, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm trying to ping you from the edit summary. That shit doesn't work! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 00:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
#Notification_from_edit_summary says you have to wait a few more hours. —suzukaze (tc) 00:58, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
And templates on edit summary are not expanded, you should use a real link. --Vriullop (talk) 09:02, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c, Vriullop: Oh, ok, thanks and thanks! --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Linking to parts of speech sections with {{l}}[edit]

Would it be possible to have {{l|en|walk|pos=verb}} (for example) link to the verb section of walk rather than to the top of the entry page? — SGconlaw (talk) 23:06, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

And what if there are multiple verb sections (like with different etymologies)? - 23:37, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
Good point. Perhaps there should be some way to specify which section (e.g., "verb 2"). — SGconlaw (talk) 04:31, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
@Sgconlaw: Use {{senseid}}. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:39, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Ah. But that would entail having to create all the sense-ids ... It would be nice to have {{l}} at least link by default to the first appropriate part-of-speech section. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:24, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
The problem is that POS headers are just headers as far as the system is concerned. If you look at the links in the table of contents at the top of any page with lots of headers (wind, for example) you'll see that the system sticks a number at the end of each header name that's a duplicate, but doesn't distinguish between language sections, and also bases it strictly on order. That means your "Noun_2" becomes "Noun_3" if someone adds a new noun section before it. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:12, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

feminine of[edit]

Hey. How easy would it be to categorise, or make a list of, all Spanish nouns that use "feminine of"? Things like comercializadora is what I'm after. Ideally, of course, we would have all of them as lemmas, and make a link to the masculine form. It's all about equality of the genders, obviously. Even though Spanish is inherently sexist. --Otra cuenta105 (talk) 23:13, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Running a search for incategory:Spanish_nouns insource:/\{\{feminine of/ should yield a complete list. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 03:13, 8 March 2018 (UTC)
Personally, I think {{feminine noun of}} is a good compromise. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:18, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Font creation[edit]

Does anyone have any experience creating fonts? I'm having trouble getting the .fina lookups to work using FontForge. --Victar (talk) 13:20, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Albanian, Irish and Old Irish cognates[edit]

Is there any way I can pull out Wiktionary etymologies which contain references to Albanian, Irish and/or Old Irish words?

@Rdurkan User:DTLHS/Irish-Albanian DTLHS (talk) 02:54, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Please test pings in edit summary[edit]

1. Read this:

"You can notify users in edit summaries. They will get a ping just as if they had been mentioned on a wiki page. phab:T32750"-- meta:Tech/News/2018/10

2. Sign up at https://en.wiktionary.beta.wmflabs.org/ using a different user name and password (not the one you use here). You may create multiple accounts if you like, just put a note on their user pages.

3. Edit a page and put a username link in edit summary. Confirm that you are receiving the notification correctly.

4. Test at different pages and in different ways.

5. Report bugs to Phabricator.

6. Share this comment with other people on other wikis, in different languages.

--Gryllida (talk) 23:54, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Sound laws app[edit]

Hello. I've just had this idea I wanted to put out there: a sound law application. It would apply all known sound laws leading from one language to another (say Proto-Germanic to Swedish) to any given word, in an algorithmic fashion.

The first step would be to list all the relevant sound laws (chronologically whenever possible). These would have to be confirmed by an appropriate set of words.

Implementing the reverse functions as well would be nice:

  • 1) inputting the etymon and the descendant and seeing if they're a match or not.
  • 2) inputting the descendant and outputting the etymon (or the different possible etyma, if there's been a sound merger at some point).

It would help tremendously in seeing how strong and prevalent analogy can be.

Does something of the sort already exist? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:00, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam Here's something: [2]. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 17:18, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam Here’s a more general sound change application, if you want to input your own set of sound laws and words and see what comes out. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 17:55, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Request: categorize names when both 'male' and 'female' are set[edit]

{{given name|male|or=female}} and {{given name|female|or=male}}, i.e. any use of the "or=" parameter, should categorize into "Category:(language) unisex given names". (This would resolve some of the entries which are categorized as both male and female given names, but not as unisex). Probably the template should even display "unisex" rather than "male or female" in such cases, although it's fine if only the categorization request can be fulfilled. (I also wonder whether "gender-neutral" might be better than "unisex"; Ngram results are inconclusive.) Reposting from January because unisex given names came up again at RFDO. - -sche (discuss) 17:42, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

Converting Wiktionary dumps to a Kindle dictionary file[edit]

Hello all,

Here is a project of mine that will download and parse a Wiktionary dump, and then generate a MOBI dictionary file that Kindles can use for in-book word look-up. My work has been mostly to "glue" different already existing softwares together: JWTKL to parse the Wiktionary dump, tab2opf to convert text files to OPF and HTML ones, and KindleGen to create the MOBI file.

It is far from perfect as JWKTL does not handle templates (I implemented some code that does, but only a few of them are supported). Inflected word forms are also not supported, etc. Entries are also very basic, only definitions and examples will make it to the dictionary file.

This is more of a proof of concept than anything else, but as I could not find any Greek-English dictionary from Amazon or elsewhere I wanted to see what could be done with Wiktionary. The project is on GitHub and you'll find download links for three dictionaries I just generated (EN-EN, FR-EN, EL-EN). Please feel free to comment and suggest. — nyg gh (talk) 23:07, 9 March 2018 (UTC)

@Nyg gh: Nice! I worked on something similar a while back, also using JWKTL. We'll soon have dumps in HTML format, I think those are better suited for parsing than XML (or maybe a combination of both). – Jberkel 23:22, 9 March 2018 (UTC)
@Jberkel: Thanks :). I've looked at the dumps mailing lists but have seen no mention of these HTML dumps. Do you have more info? — nyg gh (talk) 18:56, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
@Nyg gh: related phabricator tickets: T133547, T182351Jberkel 19:02, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

Cascading protection of User:DerekWinters[edit]

Cascading protection of the user page User:DerekWinters is preventing me from editing Module:parameters. What on earth??? It's so bizarre it's hilarious, but I'd appreciate it if an admin could fix this, so I can look into a bug in Module:headword/templates that may reside in Module:parameters. @AryamanA, it looks like you added the protection; was it meant to be cascading? — Eru·tuon 04:41, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Removed the cascading protection. DTLHS (talk) 04:45, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
@Erutuon: That's really weird, sorry for the trouble. I meant to protect his subpages. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 10:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Notification from edit summary[edit]

The only script I can think of that mentions a user page is the rollback one, and the rolled-back user will already get a ping by dint of having been reverted. I guess this means they'll get a double ping? If so, we should edit the script to prevent that. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:45, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Add curly braces around ISBNs in QQ[edit]

Can someone find a way to safely make this edit work? ISBNs should be templatized (like this) so as not to end up in Category:Pages using ISBN magic links (magic links will be removed at some point). - -sche (discuss) 05:06, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Austronesian etymology[edit]

Can anyone tell me how I can pull out all entries with references in their etymology sections to Proto-Austronesian, Proto-Polynesian, Proto-Nuclear Polynesian and/or Proto-Malayo-Polynesian, please? —This unsigned comment was added by Rdurkan (talkcontribs).

Ugh why do they ruin everything?[edit]

Some change has messed up a keyboard shortcut that's important to me. Go to delete a page and the "reason" box is focused. I usually hit Shift+Tab to focus back to the preceding list of reasons, then e.g. "V" to choose "vandalism", then tab back and type the sub-reason. Now the list can't be tabbed into, because it's apparently become some IDIOTIC custom element, not a real HTML list, that won't respond to input properly. Where can I complain? I really don't want yet another login/signup so if anyone can help/post on my behalf that would be wonderful. Equinox 17:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Poking around in the Delete interface in Chrome, it appears that the main deletion reason dropdown is still selectable using Shift-Tab, when starting from the "Other/additional reason" textbox -- if you hit Shift-Tab 54 times. If you hit just Tab to cycle forward, you have to hit it 13 times.
It appears that someone screwed up the z-index value somehow. Both are shown in the CSS inspector with the default value of auto, FWIW. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:45, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for investigating. Is anyone able to report this bug? I am really unwilling to create an extra account. (Also ask them to let registered wiki users write bug reports. w00t!) Equinox 15:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
For that matter, where does one report bugs? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 16:54, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
On Phabricator. I've had the pleasure of using it once before. -Stelio (talk) 17:18, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Display of current votes in watchlist[edit]

I remember the Template:votes appearing in my watchlist, but it's been missing now for a small handful of months. I'm guessing I've changed a preference that has removed it, but I don't see which setting it is. Any thoughts on how I can add it back in to my watchlist? Thanks, Stelio (talk) 11:05, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

That's strange, it still appears in mine, as it always has. --WikiTiki89 15:46, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
It was removed from some people's watchlist as a test, following this conversation. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 16:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Without telling them? DonnanZ (talk) 16:25, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
This is a bad change and should have been voted on. --Victar (talk) 17:01, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Who did this, @TheDaveRoss? I agree that it is very inappropriate to take action, especially selective action, after a discussion like that. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:24, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge, I initially removed the votes, then immediately reverted and started the discussion you linked. If that edit and revert somehow removed it from a bunch of people's watchlists permanently then something is broken somewhere, and it wasn't my intent. - TheDaveRoss 14:20, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Wait no, I'm definitely confusing this with something else. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:25, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

@Stelio What happens if you restore the default settings? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:28, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
Fascinating. Restoring to the default preferences does indeed put the votes back on my watchlist. I then tried editing settings one at a time and checking the watchlist. First thing I did was change language from "en - English" to "en-GB British English". Bam! No votes on my watchlist. So there's the culprit identified.
This also explains why a change to a special message didn't actually work for me (it was changed for en but not en-GB).
So in the short term I'll revert to using "en". Longer term, I'll look at a way to synchronise the various en* language pages for special messages. -Stelio (talk) 20:17, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Or rather for all languages. --WikiTiki89 14:52, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89, of course we (the site as a whole) should synchronise messages in all languages. I personally don't have the language knowledge to do that, so I would like to (at some point) look at the en* languages only. If, when I spend that time, it turns out to be a straightforward job then perhaps I can extend it. At least I can report back for others to do that work. But note that this involves more than just copying template use from one language's messages to another. For example the proper job would include translating the header row from Template:votes (stored in Template:votes/layout) to each user language as well, by making that text into a system message itself and translating appropriately. Confining my own personal scope to just the types of English avoids that particular hurdle. As it is, editing the system messages is restricted to a higher level of user rights than I have — sysop, I believe — so I can merely investigate what changes should be made rather than actually implementing them. -Stelio (talk) 22:15, 20 March 2018 (UTC)
@Stelio: What I mean is that it should appear no matter what for all languages, even if we haven't translated it to that language, in which case it should appear in English. --WikiTiki89 23:10, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

eq= in {{given name}}[edit]

Can someone link this parameter to English sections? That's its sole purpose, and it creates a bunch of black links on pages where the form is the same as the English name. See Teresa. Ultimateria (talk) 21:27, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Polish m-pr declension template[edit]

I get an error message when using {{pl-decl-noun-m-pr}} for proper nouns with certain endings (-ła, -la, -ka, -sa, -wa, -za, -zia, -cia, -nia, -na). For example, see https://en.wiktionary.org/w/index.php?title=Bary%C5%82a&oldid=49175834

Am I the only person who can't get the template to work for these endings? I can type out the declension manually but this does take more time. Hergilei (talk) 20:49, 17 March 2018 (UTC)


Why is ab a different format in the namespace? (larger sans serif font vs. smaller serif font) Is it just me or is it like this for everyone? Are there other pages like this? – Gormflaith (talk) 00:47, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

That's the page title; a namespace is a different sort of thing (like Main vs Talk vs User).
As for why: it's because the modules think Äynu should be in Arabic script, and its being on a Latin-script page is messing with the fonts. Perhaps @-sche can assess whether we should move the entry or add Latn as a valid script. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:58, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
It's tricky, because the language is secret and documentation is sparse. All that I can get ahold of is either in Latin script (but old), or phonetic (complete with square brackets), or phonetic-like but using e.g. š not ʃ and no brackets. The two "big" references known to Glottolog are the one cited in the entry, which cites words phonetically in square brackets, and Hayasi's Šäyxil Vocabulary, which I haven't been able to get ahold of, but Hayasi's piece in Copies Versus Cognates in Bound Morphology, and other works which cite the Šäyxil Vocabulary for the Eynu words they give, use (phonetic-like but bracket-less) Latin script spellings. Given the current paucity of documentation in the Arabic script, my inclination would be to add Latn as another script for the language. - -sche (discuss) 01:26, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Pardon my ignorance, but why should the page title be affected by the inclusion of a particular language. If there is anything in the content of a page which affects presentation outside of its context we should fix that. If we need to account for the page-title script we should do so in the global .js or .css, not within the page content and certainly not within modules. - TheDaveRoss 15:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
@TheDaveRoss: I suspect that what was probably happening was that Module:headword was adding a display title for Arabic script. Arabic is one of the scripts for which this is done, listed in Module:headword/data. Arabic was detected by findBestScript, which returned what was the only script listed for Aynu: Arabic. I introduced the display title feature a while back during a discussion about vertical scripts here. Script classes can be added with JavaScript (see scriptTitles.js), but there isn't yet a script that does everything that Module:script utilities does, like replacing spaces with newlines in vertical scripts, and there may be some users who don't have JavaScript enabled. On the other hand, adding display titles with Lua is inefficient, because it's done multiple times on a page if there are multiple headwords. — Eru·tuon 20:20, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

A passage-converting script[edit]

For anyone who knows how to code, I've always dreamed of having a personal Wiktionary script that converts passages of text into organized lists of links for each word in the text. For example:

"I really love to eat sugar."

would turn into

{{l|en|[[eat]] [[I]] [[love]] [[really]] [[sugar]] [[to]]}}

I wouldn't put these lists in the dictionary namespace obviously though; only in my personal userspace pages. I want to do it so I can automatically generate lists of blue links/redlinks/yellowlinks for Danish words from specific passages of text (since there are a LOT of red/yellow links for Danish that need attention) instead of having to do it manually. Also, in the cases where there's a capitalized word after a period, exclamation point, or question mark, the letter that follows will be automatically lowercased, since the script will detect this.

Is anyone willing to make a script like this just for me? It might actually do good for other users too in their situations. Thanks! PseudoSkull (talk) 16:27, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

@PseudoSkull: See Module:sandbox for a mockup version. It's not entirely functional yet though. — Eru·tuon 18:19, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I do this manually for Irish in User:Mahagaja/Sandbox. One thing to keep in mind is multiword phrases: if the script takes the words out of their natural order and puts them in alphabetical order, how will you keep the words of multiword phrases together? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 18:25, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
This is approximately what User:Equinox/code/ExtractBookWords does. Equinox 18:34, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
I do it with a regex (that also allows me to get rid of common words so there's less to scan through). But I would welcome something more efficient. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:06, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
My quickie low-tech method: in a text editor like TextEdit or Notepad, use cmd-f or ctrl-h find-and-replace to convert all punctuation to spaces, then get rid of extra spaces, then convert all spaces to ]] [[. You can then copypaste it into the edit window. If you don't want to sort it by hand, convert the spaces to newlines so you can copypaste it into a spreadsheet (first set the format in the column(s) to text so it won't choke on things like leading hyphens), then copypaste it back to the text file to finish the formatting. It works well enough that I haven't bothered to find a more elegant way to do it. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:09, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas[edit]

I wanted to add a new label but was not allowed to edit (it says only registered users can edit which I am). Can someone please add the following:

labels[“general pronouns"] = { description = "{{{langname}}} pronouns that refer to all nouns and their characteristics.", fundamental = "Lemmas subcategories by language", parents = {"pronouns", {name = “general pro-forms", sort = "pronouns"}}, }

Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 17:01, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

If you're logged in, you'll still see the message, "Note: This page has been locked so that only registered users can edit it. See the protection log." But you should find that you can still edit the page yourself (because you are indeed a registered user). -Stelio (talk) 12:03, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
I tried again. First it behaved the same, but then I figured out what was wrong: I used incorrect double quotes in two places (“ instead of "), as you can see in the above text. Thanks. --Panda10 (talk) 13:29, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

Lua error in Category:Hungarian general pronouns[edit]

I created this new category after adding a new label to Module:category tree/poscatboiler/data/lemmas and there is a red Lua error on top of the category: "Lua error in Module:category_tree/poscatboiler/data at line 38: attempt to index field '?' (a nil value)". Sorry but I have no idea how to fix it. --Panda10 (talk) 13:39, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

@Panda10, you need to create a label for general pro-forms before you can use it as a parent category. — Ungoliant (falai) 13:47, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. HastaLaVi2 fixed it by adding the text correctly. I think "general pro-forms" is no longer there. --Panda10 (talk) 13:51, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

We need your feedback to improve Lua functions[edit]


If you’re regularly using Lua modules, creating and improving some of them, we need your feedback!

The Wikidata development team would like to provide more Lua functions, in order to improve the experience of people who write Lua scripts to reuse Wikidata's data on the Wikimedia projects. Our goals are to help harmonizing the existing modules across the Wikimedia projects, to make coding in Lua easier for the communities, and to improve the performance of the modules.

We would like to know more about your habits, your needs, and what could help you. We have a few questions for you on this page.

Thanks a lot for your help, Lea Lacroix (WMDE) (talk) 08:49, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@Erutuon, DTLHS. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 08:59, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
"Did you run into performance problems?" 😂 —suzukaze (tc) 01:47, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Image caption of narrow image getting cut off[edit]

On quilisma the caption gets cut off on the sides: image, presumably because the image is narrower than the longest word. Is there any way to adjust this? DTLHS (talk) 01:31, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Increase the image size. — SGconlaw (talk) 01:41, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
The image is already at full size. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 12:02, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
I've fixed it by putting the image into a gallery that's floating right. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 12:15, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Category:Spanish male given names from Latin[edit]

Should categories like this be categorizing into Category:Spanish given names from Latin? It's a red link that doesn't work with auto cat, so I wonder if someone changed it without removing the child category. Ultimateria (talk) 18:40, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

@Ultimateria: It doesn't work with auto cat, but it does work with this: {{nameboiler|given names|es|la}}. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:45, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Inaccessible text on talk page[edit]

A 4-hyphen "language separator" was added near the end of User talk:Saltmarsh/Sandbox#Ignore, after deletion a section of text has become inaccessible - other than the heading the three numbered paras disappear when attempting to edit the section or page. I hope that someone can suggest a remedy. TIA — Saltmarsh. 05:52, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

That is coming from the <ref> tag earlier in the page. DTLHS (talk) 05:55, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) The text is generated from the <ref> tags on the page, no?
I suppose you could move the text from the bottom of the page by using <references/>. —suzukaze (tc) 05:56, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Sorted - thanks very much - someone else had placed the refs there, almost unnoticed by me :) — Saltmarsh. 10:31, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
Another solution would have been to place an actual <references/> tag in the proper section. --WikiTiki89 14:18, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Help removing items from "Speedy Deletion"[edit]

Could some kind soul, preferable someone with a bot, please help me removing 202 Azerbaijani verbs from Speedy Deletion category, added there by one user. Thank you. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 22:25, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Do you mean by deleting the pages, or by removing the template? DTLHS (talk) 22:36, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
I guess the pages haven't been marked for deletion- just the conjugation templates which transclude the category. DTLHS (talk) 22:38, 30 March 2018 (UTC)
The plain reading is that the pages are to be deleted. On the one page I looked at, the first use of the template focused on the conjugation table. When that was changed the "speedy" comment was that the term might be unattested, but that the speedy deletion could be removed and replaced with an rfd. That seems like a bit of 'shoot first and ask questions later'. DCDuring (talk) 00:29, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
It was a simple case of putting the {{d}} on the wrong side of the <noinclude> in two of a number of Azeri conjugation templates tagged. I fixed the immediate problem by moving the noinclude before the deletion template. If anyone wants to remove all the conjugation templates, they can just do Special:WhatLinksHere/ for all of the templates that are in Category:Candidates for speedy deletion. Chuck Entz (talk) 04:16, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks a lot. This solved the issue. Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 09:35, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

Query content by section[edit]

It strikes me that it would really beneficial if Lua could query the content of an entry on a section-by-section basis, something like getSection(lang, section). That would virtually eliminate the need to do regex searches on full page scrapes, like in {{desctree}}, which are very resource heavy. Is something like this even possible in Lua? --Victar (talk) 02:32, 31 March 2018 (UTC)

There was some discussion around accessing section data programmatically in phab:T114072. In summary: it's currently not possible. There's a new shiny parser which has a notion of section data but it cannot be deployed because it doesn't yet support all the warts features of MediaWiki. – Jberkel 08:06, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@Jberkel: Should we mention this along with our memory errors in the feedback request? We've been waiting on this fancy new parser for a long time now. Do you happen to know which "features" are still outstanding? —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 08:17, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Some of it is listed in phab:T55784: audio/video support, redlinks, custom tags (e.g. <math>) and I'd also suspect compatibility with existing MW extensions. For the feedback, I think they are looking specifically for Wikidata related things, and the section/memory problems are more general Lua problems, so I'm not sure it would fit in there. (A more general Lua feedback session might be a good idea). From our perspective we'll need good Lua-WD support for the upcoming lexical properties. And Lua access to interwiki links (I'll add the last one as request). – Jberkel 08:44, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
@Jberkel: Thanks for the details. Yeah, Wikidata is not my primary interest. If they ever get this new parser up and running and give Lua access to the structural information like it already has for the pagename and namespace, we'll be able to enforce in which sections templates are used. I feel like a supervillain imagining the number of errors we'll throw for misplaced templates. It'll be great —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 09:03, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Small note: &action=edit&section=36 does extract in a more-scrapable fashion the text of (currently) this section. There may be other action-api methods to do what you want. - Amgine/ t·e 21:53, 31 March 2018 (UTC)
Getting content by section order is useless. We'd still then have to scrape the whole page to find the correct section number. --Victar (talk) 02:15, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
@Victar: If this functionality is efficient and usable via Lua, we could query things by language, as in title=potestas&action=raw&section=Latin, which would allow us to significantly narrow our searches. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 02:59, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Though, to be fair, you can get the sections of a page like this: https://en.wiktionary.org/w/api.php?action=parse&text={{:friend}}__TOC__&prop=sections. So if these two calls could be made from Lua (which I doubt), and they were fairly inexpensive (which I also doubt), you could find the section you wanted. —*i̯óh₁n̥C[5] 03:16, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
@JohnC5: Well, that's the thing, currently we can only retrieve a section by its order, so, as is, &section=Latin is out of the cards.
That is an interesting idea though, to query the TOC and then get the order of the section you need from that. --Victar (talk) 03:31, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
It might be worth re-exploring the value of normalizing our data structure, at least ever so slightly.
One option would be to move each language section into a separate subpage of the headword. I'd knocked up a test of this concept years ago, now located at [[User:Eirikr/Sandbox3/ni]] and subpages.
Taking that approach one step further, each language's individual pieces (etymology, pronunciation, etc.) could be moved into subpages of the language's page. I've done that for the Albanian entry at [[User:Eirikr/Sandbox3/ni]]; the entry structure was simple (only one etym), but for a multi-etym term, details specific to a given etym would go under that etym -- as subpages, not locations on a single page. Splitting things out like this would conceivably make it possible to protect 1) just a specific language, and even 2) just a specific subsection of an entry. It also makes querying much more straightforward -- you can test for page existence to tell whether or not a given spelling has an entry in a given language, or even whether a given language's entry has any noun senses.
Hopefully food for thought. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:32, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
As I have said every time this comes up, I continue to strongly oppose this idea, which would make editing much more time-consuming in general and discourage multilingual edits. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:37, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm curious -- how many people make multilingual edits by opening an entire headword page from the Edit link at the top, instead of editing subsections of a page? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:07, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
Perhaps as much as a few times a week I might do that, but it's exceptional. DCDuring (talk) 00:48, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

Polynesian etymology[edit]

Can anyone tell me how I can pull out all entries with references in their etymology sections to Proto-Malayo-Polynesian, please? —This unsigned comment was added by Rdurkan (talkcontribs) at 23:16, 31 March 2018 (UTC).

Is Category:Terms derived from Proto-Malayo-Polynesian sufficient for your purposes? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:49, 1 April 2018 (UTC)
Not really. What I had in mind was the kind of reply I got to my posting re Albanian, Irish and Old Irish cognates (posting no 14, Mar 2018) or the second reply to my posting re Arabic etymology (posting no 26, Feb 2018)

April 2018

MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder-Data.js, Teochew and Taishanese[edit]

zhx-teo and zhx-tai need to be added to MediaWiki:Gadget-TranslationAdder-Data.js so that translations will be nested. It seems like it should go under lzh: c, in the form of "zhx-teo": c, and "zhx-tai": c,. —suzukaze (tc) 07:59, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes check.svg DoneSuzukaze-c 03:06, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Awhile ago, someone broke {{affix|...|lang1=LANG}} by adding "Borrowed from ..." and I'd like to revert it[edit]

@Rua, Daniel Carrero, Erutuon Sometime in the last year or so, someone (probably one of the three people just pinged, since they're the ones who've been hacking on this code the most) changed the behavior of {{affix|...|lang1=LANG}} to add the text "Borrowing from ..." at the beginning. This didn't use to be the case, and I suspect it was an accident; in any case it has caused some seriously ugly results in probably hundreds of pages that I created from before that time. See дистальный for one of many examples, where the text now reads

Perhaps from Borrowing from German distal +‎ -ный (-nyj).

where it used to read

Perhaps from German distal +‎ -ный (-nyj).

I sort of noticed this yesterday and tried to fix things by adding the notext= parameter to {{affix}}, {{confix}}, etc., but this isn't the right solution, as it would require adding |notext=1 to hundreds of pages. I think we should simply revert the changed behavior and not include the "Borrowing from" text, because:

  1. This is compatible with the way that {{bor}} now works.
  2. Hundreds of pages are broken with the text present.
  3. The current code is completely broken if you try to use lang2=, lang3=, etc.: {{affix|ru|distal|-ный|-ation|lang1=de|lang3=en}}German distal +‎ -ный (-nyj) +‎ English -ation.
  4. If there are pages that depend on the new behavior, they won't be horribly broken, because the "Borrowing from" text will necessarily occur at the beginning of a sentence, and the line will still be coherent without it.

If no one complains, I'll go ahead and fix this tomorrow. (It might be possible to clean this up with a bot, by (a) making the proposed change, and (b) having a bot go through and add the text "Borrowed from " to all occurrences of *fix that have lang1= in them, occur at the beginning of a line, and have a period at the end of the line.) Benwing2 (talk) 22:40, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

@Rua, Daniel Carrero, Erutuon Pinging again ... sorry, I don't know if multi-paragraph pings work properly ... :( Benwing2 (talk) 22:41, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
There was a conversation about this a while back, which I can't find at the moment, but I seem to recall that Rua also wanted this to be fixed in the way you describe, but left the project before it could be implemented. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 12:56, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Mahagaja, Benwing2: Wiktionary:Grease pit/2018/January § Affix with lang1 --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:16, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
@Mahagaja, Per utramque cavernam It looks like there was some module editing with unintended consequences. The Jan 2018 discussion just mentioned referred to a May 30 2016 edit by Rua that supposedly added the "learned borrowing" text, but at the time, the flag in question to format_borrowed() had the meaning of "notext", and the change by Rua was correct. It looks like someone (not sure who yet) later changed the calling sequence of format_borrowed(), removing (I think) the nocap param, without properly fixing up the callers, causing the call to format_borrowed() to accidentally instead specify the "learned borrowing" flag and not specify the "notext" flag. Someone else tried to fix this by disabling the "learned borrowing" flag, which left the normal borrowing text in its place. I will fix this up properly.
BTW I was gone for about 6-7 months, and in the meantime, Rua seems to have (a) adopted a new name, and (b) left the project. Anyone know what happened to her? Benwing2 (talk) 17:49, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: This was the last discussion Rua participated in. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 17:52, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Aryamanorora: Thanks. Benwing2 (talk) 17:56, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@AryamanA: Oops. Benwing2 (talk) 17:57, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Yes, that and Wiktionary:Votes/sy-2017-11/Desysopping CodeCat aka Rua (which is mentioned in the discussion). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:15, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@per utramque cavernam: Thanks. IMO this is too bad. Rua definitely caused friction by her behavior but did a lot of good work on the project. Benwing2 (talk) 18:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
BTW I made the change to remove the "Borrowing from" text from {{affix|...|langN=...}}, and reverted the previous additions I made of a |notext= flag. Benwing2 (talk) 18:20, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Yes, I'm saddened by her departure too. And thanks for fixing {{affix}} (by the way, I'm not ignoring your Russian pings, but I'm not knowledgeable enough to contribute). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Per Utramque cavernam: No need to respond to the pings, I'm just including you in case you are interested; if you'd rather I not include you, just let me know. Benwing2 (talk) 20:25, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam: Damn I need to be more careful spelling usernames. Benwing2 (talk) 20:26, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Benwing2: Copy+paste? --WikiTiki89 14:40, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
@WikiTiki89: It doesn't always work. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 17:01, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
@Per utramque cavernam: You have to copy and paste directly from the link in the wikitext of the user's signature. Work's 100% of the time. --WikiTiki89 18:03, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Hidden categories[edit]

Surely preferences used to have a switch to enable hidden categories to be listed at the bottom of a page. Has it gone or is my memory going. — Saltmarsh. 14:15, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

It must still be there, because I still have this feature enabled. --WikiTiki89 14:18, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
It's in the appearance tab under advanced options. DTLHS (talk) 15:28, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you so much I thought I had searched everywhere - but probably spent most time looking through the long lists. I'm now thoughly humbled :) — Saltmarsh. 15:33, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Help with abuse filter[edit]

New Special:AbuseFilter/79 does not work. Should catch e.g. this deleted entry اختباراختبار (my test), and in general anything that contains "==English==" but has an Arabic title (a common form of disruptive edit recently). Can anyone help me debug? Perhaps using Arabic right-to-left chars in a regex is not properly supported? Equinox 23:08, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Equinox: Looking at the documentation, the filter is matching ==English== against the page title (article_text) and the Arabic letters against the added_lines. It should be the other way around. (I wonder if like tries to match the whole string or just find a matching substring.) — Eru·tuon 01:32, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I also wonder if like doesn't recognize multi-byte characters (the Arabic) in a character set (i.e., treats them as '[\xD8\xBA\xD8\xB8...]', not as codepoints U+63A, U+638, ...). If so, the continuation bytes could match non-Arabic characters. Might be safer to use rlike. And you could expand the regex to the whole Arabic block ('[؀-ۿ]'), or copy the pattern from Module:scripts/data. — Eru·tuon 02:12, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
It works now, thanks to Eru magic. Thanks! I have also set it to block the edits because we get a lot of these and they are worthless. Equinox 02:59, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

banned off the IRC[edit]

If you are expected a classic drunk Equinox story, unfortunately there isn't one. I can't join the wikt IRC even after resetting the router, which suggests somebody has applied a huge sweeping IP ban that covers the entirety of British Telecom or something (I was never actually banned; I assume this is someone else's ban). Fixy fixy? Equinox 02:58, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

I had the same problem, apparently my IP was banned on the Japanese wiktionary (?), it went away at some point. Crom daba (talk) 04:37, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Hmmm, if only we had an equivalent to IRC, but something where your IP couldn't be banned by mistake, and with lots more features... —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:25, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
As I stated before, proprietary systems are tacky and often shut down without warning. Enjoy your sandbox until the adults take it away. Then we'll welcome you on IRC -- along with the past victims of MSN Messenger, AOL AIM, Google Buzz, Google Wave, Orkut, Flock browser -- I could go on. Equinox 05:48, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm confused, is this now the classic drunk Equinox story? It seems to have all the nonsensical makings of one. --Victar (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Does the web interface work? And does it prevent you from joining the channel or any freenode server? - TheDaveRoss 12:56, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
(For what it is worth, none of the channel bans seem like they would impact you, so it must be a network ban.) - TheDaveRoss 13:03, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Two points:
  • This is likely bleed-over from a long-term abuser on en.WP who often uses BT. I am working on finding and alleviating.
  • I will happily host an instance of Rocket.Chat, which is a flossy pseudo-clone of Slack, but Equinox is correct - such multi-channel communications systems have not proven to last, unlike IRC.
- Amgine/ t·e 15:09, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Advice from irc://chat.freenode.net/wikimedia-ops is to try again. When they have done BT range blocks they are for as short a time as possible, usually a few minutes. - Amgine/ t·e 15:14, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Tech feature: intersection and disjunction[edit]

Is there a tool or way of finding the intersection (and moreover, the disjunct group) of two categories? For example, category:English adjectives and category:English words suffixed with -ly (which in fact would go to category:English words suffixed with -ly (adjectival)!). Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:23, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

See https://petscan.wmflabs.org/ explained at m:PetScan. It returns 526 pages in Category:English adjectives and Category:English words suffixed with -ly, not in Category:English words suffixed with -ly (adjectival). --Vriullop (talk) 10:01, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Ordinary Cirrus search supports category intersections. DCDuring (talk) 12:00, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Cirrus search is at least 0.6% better than petscan because 'incategory:"English words suffixed with -ly" incategory:"English adjectives"' generated 529 hits. DCDuring (talk) 12:05, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
Adding in search '-incategory:"English words suffixed with -ly (adjectival)"' it returns 526 pages. There are 3 pages in both "-ly" and "-ly (adjectival)" categories. --Vriullop (talk) 12:35, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Haitian Creole ancestors[edit]

Could someone who's able to edit Module:languages/data2 please add French as an ancestor of Haitian Creole? It's a French-based creole, but right now its ancestors are listed as unknown. —Globins 22:13, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

We have thus far chosen to consider the main lexifiers of a creole as distinct from its ancestors, where any exist. Were French to evolve naturally, it would not produce a creole, so Haitian Creole is not a descendant language despite most of its lexicon being descended from French lexical items. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 23:37, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
If this is the policy for all creoles, then I don't think it makes sense for English to be listed as an ancestor of Tok Pisin. —Globins 00:04, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
I agree. It's not policy, though, just our (imperfectly applied) standard so far. More input would definitely be good; I seem to remember @Mahagaja having discussed this in the past. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:19, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Not in any informed way, I haven't. I think at some point I said that {{der}} was the only appropriate template for creoles and pidgins because their words are neither really inherited nor really borrowed from their lexifier languages, but other people disagreed with me. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 07:08, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Whatever we do, I think we should standardize it. Does anyone else have an opinion on this? —Globins 13:47, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
I think we should call English a creole of French as well. I jest, but I agree, I think Haitian Creole should really be descended from French. The alternative is to say all the French vocabulary is borrowed, which seems the worst of the two options. --Victar (talk) 17:44, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
Or we could do what Mahagaja supports and what we've been doing up to this point, namely use {{der}}. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:02, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
(edit conflict) No, the alternative is to not say whether it's borrowed or inherited, just where it comes from. There are no decisive arguments one way or the other, and even if there were, it's likely they wouldn't apply uniformly in all instances. I don't believe that we really understand what happens when a pidgin is created and when it becomes a creole- there are elements of inheritance and borrowing and influence that are really hard to separate. It's best not commit to any interpretation, at least for now. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:10, 14 April 2018 (UTC)
@Metaknowledge, Chuck Entz, I don't think making French the ancestor and the use of {{der}} or {{inh}} to be mutually exclusive. --Victar (talk) 20:41, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Victar As long as there's a good chance that whatever we decide could be wrong, I'd rather not decide. Chuck Entz (talk) 20:54, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Auto Cat and Topical Categories That Begin With Language Names[edit]

@Erutuon What do you think about something along the lines of a |nopos= parameter so people don't have to learn how to use {{topic cat}}. Chuck Entz (talk) 18:25, 14 April 2018 (UTC)

Edit tags: -th[edit]

What does the tag "-th" mean? There's no explanation at Special:Tags. Thanks. – Gormflaith (talk) 00:43, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

It's referring to the IP range characteristic of a certain Thai editor who often adds incorrect information. @Chuck Entz created it, I think. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 00:44, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I noticed he was really the only one doing anything about it. – Gormflaith (talk) 00:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Special:AbuseFilter/75. Equinox 00:45, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox: you forget that some of us are the mere "public" :-) ("You may not view details of this filter, because it is hidden from public view.") – Gormflaith (talk) 00:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
I think people do that to stop the bad editor from studying the filter and coming up with workarounds. BTW, it would be nice for Special:Tags to indicate which numbered filters apply a given tag. Equinox 01:10, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
Yep. The main problem isn't bad information (though they do that, too), but adding labels and templates where they don't belong. They seem to be so mesmerized by our template technology that they add them everywhere, even in languages they know nothing about, even where the templates produce garbage unless you know the right parameters (which this editor certainly doesn't). I've seen them add a dozen or more conjugation templates to Spanish entries that already had working ones.
There's no way for a non-Thai to tell them apart from competent IPs when they're working with Thai, but Thai IPs working in other languages are few and far between, so I have the abuse filters tag the IP range editing entries with no Thai content. In my experience their edits are maybe 50% unnecessary clutter and 30-40% varying degrees of wrong- so definitely worth checking- but they seem quite normal if you're just skimming Recent Changes. Chuck Entz (talk) 05:08, 15 April 2018 (UTC)


I have a list of about 1,700 dinosaur names from Wikipedia at User:BD2412/dinosaurs. Is there some technical shortcut we can use to extract information from Wikipedia to create entries for these? bd2412 T 18:03, 16 April 2018 (UTC)


Does somebody know why this doesn't work? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:31, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that the label "terms derived from English" belongs to a different submodule (Module:category tree/derivcatboiler) and Module:category tree/poscatboiler assumes that you are specifying a label that belongs to it. I guess you have to give the name of the submodule and the language code for English instead, but I can't get it to work. — Eru·tuon 16:58, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Revert edit summary[edit]

This is probably a stupid question, but why do edit summaries for reverts look like this? Is there a way to fix it besides manually deleting the tags? And is it just my browser? – Gormflaith (talk) 17:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)