Wiktionary:Grease pit

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Wiktionary > Discussion rooms > Grease pit

Welcome to the Grease pit!

This is an area to complement the Beer parlour and Tea room. Its purpose is specifically for discussing the future development of the English Wiktionary, both as a dictionary and as a website.

The Grease pit is a place to discuss technical issues such as templates, Lua modules, CSS, JavaScript, the MediaWiki software, extensions to it, the toolserver, etc. It is also a place to think in non-technical ways about how to make the best free and open online dictionary of "all words in all languages".

Others have understood this page to explain the "how" of things, while the Beer parlour addresses the "why".

Permanent notice

  • Tips and tricks about customization or personalization of CSS and JS files are listed at WT:CUSTOM.
  • Other tips and tricks are at WT:TAT.
  • Find information and helpful links about modules, Lua in general, and the Scribunto extension at WT:LUA.
  • Everyone is encouraged to expand both pages, or to come up with more such stuff. Other known pages with "tips-n-tricks" are to be listed here as well.

Grease pit archives edit

July 2018

Qualifier at Module:compound/templates[edit]

Can someone please add qualifier parameters to this module? A template displaying "diminutive suffix" in quotation marks (via t=) goes against our formatting standards. I just saw a new user change "t=" to "pos=" for this exact reason. It looks correct now, but it's silly that we need a workaround like that. Ultimateria (talk) 16:42, 2 July 2018 (UTC)

@Ultimateria:, that's no work around; that's how |pos= of supposed to be used in those cases. --Victar (talk) 19:06, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I see. I looked at {{affix}} again and saw that |pos= and |posN= are two different parameters; I only saw the first one before and thought it was a mistake. Thank you. Ultimateria (talk) 21:20, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
But in testing it I've run into a dilemma: as a random example I've picked despacito (forgive me) which is both a diminutive adjective and a diminutive adverb. But |pos2= isn't for a second part of speech... I don't feel like |pos= is the right parameter for this function. Okay, maybe not |q=; I would suggest |gloss= but I see that we're deprecating it in {{der}}, {{l}}, etc in favor of a unified |t=. But there are just some glosses that shouldn't have quotation marks! Ultimateria (talk) 21:34, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
@Ultimateria: What were you trying to achieve with |pos2=? Its actual purpose is providing a part of speech (or other information that should be displayed without quotation marks) that pertains to the second element in the template (in this case, the suffix ito in {{suffix|es|despacio|ito}}). — Eru·tuon 22:11, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
I'm trying to display despacio ("slow; slowly") + -ito (diminutive suffix). No quotation marks around "diminutive suffix". That's my main issue. Then I should use (apparently) |pos2= to avoid the quotation marks that |t2= would create. But there is a different need for a parameter called |pos2=: a second part of speech. If I have |pos=adjective, then I can't also categorize the page as an adverb with |pos2=adverb, even though it belongs in both Category:Spanish adjectives suffixed with -ito and Category:Spanish adverbs suffixed with -ito. I only bring up the example as a case against using |posN= for non-translation glosses. Sorry, I know I've made this confusing. Ultimateria (talk) 23:10, 2 July 2018 (UTC)
@Ultimateria: I see. Well, I think the "suffixed" and "prefixed" categories with specific parts of speech (as opposed to just "words") might not be used very often. They might be most useful to disambiguate between two entirely different senses of a suffix: for instance, -en when it forms a verb (quicken) versus an adjective (wooden). But |idN= can also be used for this purpose (for instance, Category:English words suffixed with -er (action noun) is added using this parameter). — Eru·tuon 01:07, 3 July 2018 (UTC)

Plant topic cats[edit]

I've been doing a lot of work adding vernacular names of plants in various languages (mainly Icelandic) and there are a couple of missing topic cats that could be useful as I'm currently having to use high-level categories such as orders. A few useful ones I can think of would be:

Is it possible to add these myself (if so, how?) or is somebody else willing to do it barring any objections? Cheers, BigDom 15:33, 4 July 2018 (UTC)

I think @Chuck Entz is the go-to guy for that kind of thing. DCDuring (talk) 18:01, 4 July 2018 (UTC)
First of all, Wikimedia categories are a navigational device: they answer the question "what other pages are there like this one?". A category with only a couple of entries is pretty useless- better to put links in a "See also" section on the member pages. Many of the categories I create based on the requirements of English are useless for most other languages, and should be replaced by higher-level categories in those languages.
As for maximum size: grammatical categories are unavoidably huge, but my personal preference is to split up topical categories that look like they may reach the 200 that fit on one page in at least one language.
I typically use higher-level taxa when there aren't enough pages to justify lower-level taxa, but the parent category is too big in at least one language (generally English, since there are so many English common names in the dictionary). A smaller category might be justified if it's really intuitive or of great interest, as long as there would be more than one or two entries.
I'm skeptical about the pondweed family category: there are only about a hundred species in the Potamogetonaceae, and the vast majority don't have common names. It's not a terribly well-known family, so it wouldn't be that intuitive or of much interest. I'm surprised you were able to come up with as many as you have- are there many more?
I've been able to scrape together enough English entries to (barely) justify creating Category:Rushes and Category:Club mosses- they're fairly intuitive, but I doubt they'll be much use in other languages. Tipping the balance was the fact that I'm not all that fond of Category:Commelinids and Category:Spore plants: the first is rather obscure and the other violates the taxonomy-based organization of the life-forms categories, but the alternative was either overloading higher categories or creating tiny lower categories. Eventually I'd like to create and fill out the lower categories and get rid of those two. Chuck Entz (talk) 02:08, 5 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the explanation and for creating the two new categories. Similar to you, my motivation for wanting categories for rushes and club mosses was that their "parent" categories aren't like others. Having done some of those plants in Icelandic, there are definitely dozens of English vernacular names we don't have yet so we should be able to flesh those new cats out some more. As for the pondweeds, fair enough if you don't think there are enough of them - happy to defer to your judgement on that one. Cheers, BigDom 06:14, 5 July 2018 (UTC)

Category:Wiktionary archives‎[edit]

Hey. So I unnecessarily created a new category - Category:Wiktionary archives‎, and renamed some archive pages, and in doing so I've almost certainly broken something. I planned to fix it now, but I ran out of time and will be away from WT for the next five years anyway. Sorry about that --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 12:04, 6 July 2018 (UTC)

Could you identify the pages that you renamed? — SGconlaw (talk) 14:20, 6 July 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I came back early. It's fine now. I broke nothing. --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 16:19, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Bot request: es-adj -> es-adj-sup[edit]

Based on Wiktionary:Beer parlour/2018/July#Are comparative or superlative forms lemmas?, the consensus seems to be to not have the superlative forms marked as lemmas or adjectives. For this reason, we would need a bot to go over the entries at Category:Spanish adjective superlative forms, find all superlative forms where the definition line involves Template:superlative of, and change the head template from Template:es-adj to Template:es-adj-sup. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

It's premature to say there's a consensus: only three people have posted in that thread so far. — Eru·tuon 18:29, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
I agree, albeit the current structure of the categories (where adjective/adverbs comparative and superlative forms are categorized under non-lemma forms) also would hint they are not lemmata. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:33, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
(Discussion currently going on that BP thread). SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:40, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
@Surjection: It's true that adjective comparative forms and adjective superlative forms are under the corresponding adjective forms category, but comparative adjectives and superlative adjectives categories are under the corresponding adjectives category instead. — Eru·tuon 19:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
It does not actually matter whichever category it is: we can convert all of the ones to use es-adj-sup and then change the category that es-adj-sup uses. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 20:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
Good point. I'm all for consistency in template usage. — Eru·tuon 20:19, 7 July 2018 (UTC)
  • Support. I just created a new batch of Spanish superlatives. The new template Seems OK to me! --Harmonicaplayer (talk) 09:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)
I would be happy to help in the conversion if/when consensus is reached, feel free to ping me. - TheDaveRoss 12:14, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
I think there is already consensus to do the actual edit, since whether the superlatives will be categorized as lemmas or not can be changed in the es-adj-sup template later on. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 14:48, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
What about diminutives, augmentatives, pejoratives, irregular comparatives and superlatives (e.g. Spanish peor, pésimo)? Matthias Buchmeier (talk) 08:58, 18 July 2018 (UTC)

Re-scheduled deployment of the New Filters on Watchlist[edit]

There was a recent announcement about the plans to graduate the New Filters for Edit Review out of beta for this Wiki. The deployment was stalled to fix the performance issue related to the change. The performance of the new interface has been improved significantly as an outcome of the work by the developers [1]. So, the deployment has been re-scheduled. The deployment is scheduled for this wiki on July 16th 2018.

Please let us know of any other issues or special incompatibility that you may face so that we could make sure they are solved before the feature gets deployed. -- Kaartic (talk) 20:22, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The layout of the top of the Watchlist is hideous with lots of whitespace on the one hand, and cramped text on the other. Some this may have to do with our efforts to put reminders about votes, smallest discussions at the top of the page. To what email would I send a screenshot? DCDuring (talk) 16:23, 17 July 2018 (UTC)
I could see that the layout of the text shown above the new UI for watchlist is broken. I'm not sure this is an issue with the new filters UI as the text above the UI is well formatted in English Wikipedia which also has the same UI deployed. Maybe you would have to consider tweaking MediaWiki:Watchlist-details? If you're speaking of wasted white-space in places other than above the filters UI, let me know.
Regarding the screen-shot, you could upload it to commons and share a link here. Or you could upload it to phabricator and share a link. If you feel strongly about not sharing the screen shot publicly, let me know and I'll share my email.
--Kaartic (talk) 06:24, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Screenshot. DCDuring (talk) 12:12, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
I suppose editing MediaWiki:Watchlist-details on this wiki would solve this issue. I can't do that myself as I lack the permission to edit the page. Let me know if I could help in any other way. Thanks, Kaartic (talk) 18:31, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Consultation on the creation of a separate user group for editing sitewide CSS/JS[edit]

For this wiki I feel like just allowing admins to opt in is enough, rather than adding another layer of voting and policy. Also I wish I had thought to use all of our editors to mine cryptocurrency, so clever. - TheDaveRoss 12:19, 9 July 2018 (UTC)


This is categorizing all pages into English, regardless of |lang=. Ultimateria (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2018 (UTC)

Undoing Dan Carrero's most recent edit to the template seems to have fixed it. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 19:33, 9 July 2018 (UTC)
@Erutuon, Metaknowledge, the template is throwing a "Lua error in Module:utilities at line 143". See transaudient. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:39, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
@Sgconlaw: Fixed, I think. Documented the parameters too. — Eru·tuon 08:10, 10 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. — SGconlaw (talk) 08:49, 10 July 2018 (UTC)

Script for adding translation tables[edit]

Is there a script to avoid having to do this manually? @Erutuon? Per utramque cavernam 06:59, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

@Per utramque cavernam: You mean a script to add a translation section (with the translation container templates) in the correct place? It would be convenient, but I haven't made one because I never or rarely add translation sections. — Eru·tuon 04:55, 20 July 2018 (UTC)


Does anyone know what this guy is asking about?: Wiktionary:Information desk/2018/July#Can this font be installed on Western Windows without any BSoD? —Stephen (Talk) 23:14, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

It oozes technological illiteracy to me, I don't think any version of Windows would have an issue where the system would crash because of installing a font. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 23:15, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
In my experience it is sufficient to copy a font file to the Windows fonts directory (typically c:/windows/fonts). I agree that this shouldn't break anything unless the system already has some problem (graphics drivers etc.). And Western editions of Windows already ship with a selection of non-Western-script fonts; this has been the case for many versions. Equinox 23:21, 13 July 2018 (UTC)
The safer option for installing fonts in my opinion is to right-click the font file in Explorer and click Install, as there may be some registry changes that need to be made as well. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 23:24, 13 July 2018 (UTC)

broken Latin templates[edit]

Both templates used for similior, miserior and apparently all other Latin adjectives are apparently broken or incorrectly used due to the missing documentation. It should produce "comparative of similis", but similis is invisible despite being mentioned in the template. --Espoo (talk) 19:21, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

You mean {{la-adj-comparative}}, right? It hasn't been touched since @Kc kennylau edited it in 2016. I agree that this information needs to be mentioned somewhere on the page, though. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:54, 16 July 2018 (UTC)
Although that template itself has not been changed, it actually uses Module:la-headword, which has changed much since 2016. --kc_kennylau (talk) 22:19, 16 July 2018 (UTC)

{{reflist}} versus <references/>[edit]

I was submitting an edit, and I got this error:

<quote>Warning: You're trying to save page with a <ref> tag but no tag! This action has been automatically identified as likely in error. If you believe this edit to be correct, you may click "Save page" again to confirm it. Otherwise, please fix it and then click "Save page". If you received this message in error, please report it at the Wiktionary:Grease pit.</quote>

I used {{reflist}} instead of <references/>. Is that bad? Looks fine to me. Page is vinescent. --NessieVL (talk) 15:12, 17 July 2018 (UTC)

Unlike Wikipedia, Wiktionary tends to use plain <references/>. I suppose the filter should could accept {{reflist}} too, though. See WT:QUOTE for how to format quotations, btw. - -sche (discuss) 07:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Look how many pages use {{reflist}}, seven pages in the mainspace now. This is a template I do not not know the exact reasoning of, being a non-Wikipedian. See also Wiktionary:Grease pit/2017/November § Parallel universes in regard to reference formatting for another template created by @Sgconlaw that we have been surprised about.
I don’t know what’s bad but I can inform you that
  1. <references/> is good.
  2. We do not usually use footnotes, we just write things and put the references at the bottom. We add <references/> only according to taste or expectations for example when we think someone will be too stupid to see the references and remove stuff as unsourced like in this diff; I think you understand and appreciate it, too. Our etymology sections can indeed contain information that cannot be found that way anywhere unlike by Wikipedia’s synthesis rule, we can talk about probabilities and apply linguistic methods.
  3. It is not correct to put quotes or usage examples into footnotes as you have on vinescent. We use {{quote-book}} and so on for quotations, {{cite-book}} and so on for bottom references, see Category:Citation templates for what you need to know. @NessieVL Fay Freak (talk) 11:45, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
@Fay Freak: I created {{reflist}} solely for use with {{refn}} to enable a separate "Notes" section to be created. This was because there were views that footnotes that do not provide information about the entry proper should not be placed in the "References" section. See moccasin for an example. It is unnecessary to use {{reflist}} in "References" sections; the practice is to use the <references /> tag. — SGconlaw (talk) 11:57, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Thanks @Sgconlaw, it looks fine on moccasin. You should amend the documentations of {{reflist}} and {{refn}} to make it obvious to users that these are, on Wiktionary, only used in cases of unlikely peculiar needs and in conjunction with each other. Fay Freak (talk) 12:14, 19 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes, I intended to update the documentation pages of the two templates at some stage. The current pages were imported from the English Wikipedia and contain a lot of templates and information not applicable here, so it will take some time for me to go through them. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:16, 19 July 2018 (UTC)

Track wrong Latin links[edit]

In transcendentia we have {{inflection of|transcends|trānscendēns|nom|n|p|lang=la}}, which is wrong because the first parameter should be transcendens instead of transcends. Can we track the wrong Latin links similar to this one, perhaps in Module:links? --kc_kennylau (talk) 16:01, 19 July 2018 (UTC)


I wish the template {{gl-adj}} were updated so the category for Galician lemmas goes first, rather than the one for Galician adjectives, like in the entry tubular. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 22:05, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. That's about the only simple thing that can be done to this template, which is a vintage Daniel Carrero pre-Lua rat's-nest. Chuck Entz (talk) 22:23, 21 July 2018 (UTC)

Category:English merisms - grammar error in text[edit]

I got as far as Module:auto cat and then didn't know where to look to fix it. Equinox 17:38, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

@Equinox: To find the module that contains the text, click "Edit category data" on the right sidebar. From there it should be easy to change the text. — Eru·tuon 17:55, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Equinox 18:00, 24 July 2018 (UTC)
See Wiktionary:Requests_for_cleanup#Category:English_merisms. DCDuring (talk) 18:36, 24 July 2018 (UTC)

Shakespeare quotation & antonym[edit]

Last June, I posted a quotation from Shakespeare with a template line in red (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/insult#Verb) and an antonym 'truth' (in blue) for 'fiction' (https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/fiction#Synonyms) and nothing has since happened to both entries. What should I do to edit/correct them? Thanks. --J. Wiwat (talk) 07:02, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done. In future, a better place to raise queries about specific words is at "Wiktionary:Tea room". "Wikipedia:Grease pit" is for technical questions. — SGconlaw (talk) 07:45, 27 July 2018 (UTC)

Protected pages font[edit]

Trying to edit a protected page, the fonts in the whole "environment" changed to bold. Is this intended or is a bug? --Xoristzatziki (talk) 17:39, 30 July 2018 (UTC)

Javascript sideby Lua[edit]

Hi to all. I am currently an administrator on Turkish Wiktionary. I created a helping tool that would speed up the process of creating a new entry for new users (see). The thing is, it uses all the languages within Module:languages, but I couldn't figure out a way to directly get the data from modules into javascript. Therefore I created another data file on javascript consists of arrays holding available languages on Turkish Wiktionary (here). I had some research and found out that some people could manage to do what I need with JSON, and these language modules have "toJSON" function and "javascript-interface" submodules. But from where can I find the help to use them? ~ Z (m) 10:01, 31 July 2018 (UTC) By the way the tool can be seen as an example on this page :tr:Hello World! ~ Z (m) 10:01, 31 July 2018 (UTC)

August 2018

Problems about fonts of Chinese characters[edit]

In English Wiktionary, the Chinese characters are displayed in a strange way, as shown in the screenshots. All other wiktionary projects do not have this problem.--Leiem (talk) 02:02, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

MediaWiki_talk:Common.css#Heiti_SC_and_Heiti_TC? —Suzukaze-c 02:12, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

Coverage tool wanted[edit]

I would like a tool (on the toolserver, I assume) that allows me to specify a language and enter a text, where the tool then splits the text into words, counts the frequency (number of occurrences), and looks up each word in Wiktionary to see whether it has an entry in the given language and possibly whether that entry is a form entry. For example, I specify English and the text "tools on a toolserver". Output: a (1 occurrence, entry exists), on (1, exists), tools (1, form entry exists, plural of tool), toolserver (1, does not exist). If the output can be sorted by frequency, this would provide a means to identify which words (e.g. in a chapter by Mark Twain) are in most dire need of entries. Note that the entry should exist for that language; this is not the same as a page existing.

Is this the right place to ask for such a tool? Maybe such a tool already exists? (Maybe what I want is instead the Dicompte tool for French Wiktionary? It lists words that occur in books in Wikisource but are missing from Wiktionary, unfortunately only for French.)

To find out whether a word has an entry for a certain language, I assume categories such as the category:English lemmas must be used? Is there any easy way for a tool to determine whether an entry is a form entry or a real one? --LA2 (talk) 14:26, 1 August 2018 (UTC)

I can do it as a Windows desktop thing if that's any good. Probably not ideal, but I hate Web programming. Equinox 20:06, 2 August 2018 (UTC)


Hi there. Would it be possible for someone to create a {{it-IPA}} template, along the lines of {{es-IPA}}? Italian pronunciation is very regular, and can be inferred directly from the spelling - we have the details in the pronunciation section of Wiktionary:About Italian. SemperBlotto (talk) 09:18, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

I'd like to work on this, it was already suggested by @GianWiki a while ago. With Italian's optional accents the pronunciation can't always be inferred directly from the spelling though. - Jberkel 11:38, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
You could make a template with a first parameter requiring the full word be entered, complete with accent. That would help determine the stress. For example, the pronunciation for the word cane would require you to type: {{it-IPA|càne}}, which would result in: IPA(key): /ˈka.ne/, [ˈkäːn̺e̞]. — GianWiki (talk) 12:29, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
It could work like this:
  • ⟨a⟩ is always /a/, [ä]
  • ⟨b, f, m, p, v⟩ remain the same
  • ⟨c⟩ is /k/ before /a, o, ɔ, u/, and /t͡ʃ/ before /e, ɛ, i/
    • ⟨ch⟩ is /k/ (but phonetically realized as a prevelar [k̟]) before /e, ɛ, i, j/
    • ⟨ci⟩ is /t͡ʃ/ when the ⟨i⟩ is unstressed and /a, e, ɛ, o, ɔ, u/ follows
  • ⟨d⟩ is always /d/, [d̪]
  • ⟨e, é⟩ is always /e/ (but phonetically lowered [e̞] when the previous syllable contains /a/)
    • ⟨è⟩ is always /ɛ/
  • ⟨g⟩ is /ɡ/ before /a, o, ɔ, u/, and /d͡ʒ/ before /e, ɛ, i/
    • ⟨gh⟩ is /ɡ/ (but phonetically realized as a prevelar [ɡ̟]) before /e, ɛ, i, j/
    • ⟨gi⟩ is /d͡ʒ/ when the ⟨i⟩ is unstressed and /a, e, ɛ, o, ɔ, u/ follows
  • ⟨gl⟩ is usually /ʎ/ (simple when word-initial, and geminated /ʎʎ/ elsewhere) before /e, ɛ, i/, but there are words, like glicine (pron. /ˈɡlit͡ʃine/) where this does not happen
  • ⟨gn⟩ is always /ɲ/ when word-initial, and geminated /ɲɲ/ elsewhere
  • ⟨h⟩ is always null
  • ⟨i⟩ is usually /i/. I'm not sure how to properly distinguish it from its semivowel counterpart /j/, though.
  • ⟨l⟩ is usually /l/, [l̺]. Phonetically, it's dentalized [l̪] before /d, s, t, t͡s, d͡z/, and palatalized [l̺ʲ] before /t͡ʃ, d͡ʒ/
  • ⟨n⟩ is usually /n/, [n̺]. Phonetically, it's dentalized [n̪] before /d, s, t, t͡s, d͡z/, velar [ŋ] before /k, ɡ/, labiodental [ɱ] before /f, v/, and palatalized [n̺ʲ] before /t͡ʃ, d͡ʒ/
  • ⟨o, ó⟩ is always /o/ (but phonetically lowered [o̞] when the previous syllable contains /a/)
    • ⟨ò⟩ is always /ɔ/
  • ⟨qu⟩ is always /kw/
  • ⟨r⟩ is always /r/, [r̺]
  • ⟨s⟩ is /z/, [z̪] when intervocalic (although with some exceptions), /s/, [z̪] before voiced consonants, and /s/, [s̪] elsewhere
  • ⟨sc⟩ is /ʃ/ (simple when word-initial, geminated /ʃʃ/ elsewehere) before /e, ɛ, i/; it's /sk/, [s̪k] elsewhere
    • ⟨sci⟩ is /ʃ/ (simple when word-initial, geminated /ʃʃ/ elsewehere) when the ⟨i⟩ is unstressed and /a, e, ɛ, o, ɔ, u/ follows
  • ⟨t⟩ is always /t/, [t̪]
  • ⟨u⟩ is usually /u/. Again, I'm not sure how to distinguish it from its semivowel counterpart /w/
  • ⟨x⟩ is always /ks/, [ks̪]
  • I don't believe there's any surefire way to determine if ⟨z⟩ will be realized as /t͡s/, [t̪͡s̪] or /d͡z/, [d̪͡z̪]. This is also true for geminated ⟨zz⟩.
Sorry for the wall of text, but I thought I would throw a few suggestions out there. Any thoughts? — GianWiki (talk) 14:10, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Started a module at Module:it-pronunciation. It handles a few features of the phonemic transcription so far. It would be great if you or other people who are familiar with Italian added more testcases. — Eru·tuon 20:30, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

Apparent bug with "thanks" link to entry revision[edit]

Donnanz sent me a "thanks" notification for fashion show. When I clicked it to see which edit was being "thanked", I was taken here [2], which gives an error message: "One revision of this difference (5274261) was not found. This is usually caused by following an outdated diff link to a page that has been deleted. Details can be found in the deletion log." However, the page does not seem to have been deleted at any point. Is this a bug? Equinox 20:05, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

If you were thanked for creating the page, perhaps one revision of that diff does not exist, namely the nonexistant revision from before your edit creating the first revision... although that didn't used to cause a problem (I've viewed thanks for creating pages before). I just thanked you for creating gift economy, where yours is the only revision; can you see that diff? - -sche (discuss) 21:04, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
Your "thank" gives me the same error ("One revision of this difference (50062656) was not found"). Equinox 21:06, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
I would hazard a guess the software has changed, then. Seems like a regression, although unimportant. - -sche (discuss) 21:11, 2 August 2018 (UTC)
  • I think we should all just stop thanking each other and get back to work. --New WT User Girl (talk) 21:21, 2 August 2018 (UTC)

Monthly subpages[edit]

If we're not already, we should be thinking of a replacement for the no-longer-running bot by the no-longer-present user who previously created subpages like Wiktionary:Grease pit/2019/January with {{discussion month}}, and more importantly briefly moved each subpage over top of an existing subpage (which in turn had initially been moved over top of the central page) so new pages were "automatically" in the watchlists of everyone who watched the (main) Grease pit (Beer parlour, etc). The "Click here to start a new discussion" links will presumably keep linking to the right subpages (whether they are blue or red links) indefinitely, and we could probably make redlinked monthly subpages preload with {{discussion month}}, but a system which (like the current one) doesn't require people to start manually watchlisting each new month's subpage in order to notice in one's watchlist that discussions are happening would be preferable. - -sche (discuss) 01:23, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

(Wow I never knew how that "keep it on your watchlist" thing worked! I asked about it once but nobody knew what I was talking about.) Equinox 01:31, 3 August 2018 (UTC)

Behaviour of "Template:audio"[edit]

I renamed a pronunciation sound file to "File:En-us-insouciant.flac" to correct a spelling mistake. However, at insouciant the {{audio}} template no longer displays properly. What is causing the problem? — SGconlaw (talk) 13:52, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

I figured out that I need to reset the transcodes at the Wikimedia Commons. — SGconlaw (talk) 17:21, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

thiz.elements.lang.update is not a function[edit]

When I tried to add a Pazend Middle Persian translation in diff, I got "ERROR:TypeError: thiz.elements.lang.update is not a function" and, even though the preview and automated edit showed the translation working just fine, it did not add. Perhaps in this specific case the Pazend alt form should just be consigned to the lemma page anyway, but the issue still seemed worth reporting. - -sche (discuss) 19:23, 4 August 2018 (UTC)

Arabic Script "see also" suggestions problem[edit]

On many pages using the Perso-Arabic script, there are "see also" suggestions for related words. While this is often helpful (especially because of various graphical differences between languages), it is often overused or rather superfluously suggesting something that is completely unrelated. E.g.: بردن; I was looking up the Persian word بردن (brdn) and noticed that there are "see also" suggestions for the unrelated words تردن (trdn) and تزدن (tzdn) with the format:

See also: تزدن and تردن

This is reciprocated for تردن and تزدن. These suggestions are helpful for words like دليل (Arabic dalīl) and دلیل (Persian dalil) which look the same and are hand-written the same way, but the first one using the unicode letter 064A ARABIC LETTER YEH (ي) for the 3rd letter, and the second one using the letter 06CC ARABIC LETTER FARSI YEH (ی) for the 3rd letter. This is the same as تازه (Persian tâze) and تازە (Kurdish taze), the first using 0647 ARABIC LETTER HEH for the final letter and the second using 06D5 ARABIC LETTER AE for the final letter.
This is also helpful for related words like بهلوان (Arabic bahlawān) and پهلوان (Persian pahlavân), where Arabic doesn't have a "p" and so use a "b" when adopting the word from Persian.
It is helpful for closely related dialectal and etymological variations like ذئب (Arabic ḏiʾb), ديب (Egyptian Arabic dīb), and ذيب‎ (Malay zib), all of which have the same meaning and are closely related. Another example of this that incorporates the first example is موسيقى (Arabic mūsīqā), موسيقي (Arabic mūsīqī), and موسیقی (Persian musiqi).
To people studying Middle Eastern languages (depending on experience and exposure) will readily recognize the relations between these words and the suggestions are pleasant and helpful. However, to the untrained eye, بردن and تردن and تزدن look as much like each other as دئب and ديب and ذیب, even though the first set are unrelated and should not be suggested to each other. This can be especially problematic with a set such as زن (Persian zan), ژن (Kurdish jin), and رن (Arabic rin), where زن and ژن are related etymologically, but رن is completely unrelated.

To make sure this is in perspective to users who don't deal with Arabic script, this is like the entry for dad, which has these suggestions (edited to

See also: Dad, DAD, dåd, -dad, ḍaḍ, and dáð

wherein "Dad", "dåd", "bað", etc. may be very helpful to a user because each one is a variant of the initial word "dad"; but if the suggestions included unrelated variants based on superficial letter appearances, the "see also" would likewise include: "bad", "pad", "dab", "daq", etc.
Is there a way to keep helpful suggestions and select out the misleading suggestions? Or would such a task have to be done to each entry, one by one? Would it be more feasible to only allow related groupings of letters (for the letters that differ between entries)? e.g.: ا,أ,إ,آ and ي,ئ,ې,ى,ی,ێ and ب/پ and ه,ة‎,ہ,ۀ,ھ‎ and ط/ت but not ت/ب and پ/ت and ث/ب and ر/ژ.

Binya2021 (talk) 10:10, 5 August 2018 (UTC)

It is not supposed to refer to related words. {{also}} entries are generally completely bot-added, in case you haven’t noticed. Also regard if you are of the same opinion when you consider rasm. Fay Freak (talk) 21:44, 7 August 2018 (UTC)
They are bot added, but somebody needs to write another bot that can add and maintain them since the previous adder doesn't seem to contribute to the project any more. The actual bot is trivial, but what's hard is writing down all the rules. DTLHS (talk) 21:46, 7 August 2018 (UTC)


Add these related terms to C:

-Lamanapa (talk) 23:25, 10 August 2018 (UTC)

Updating conjugation templates[edit]

Requesting help with updating {{az-latin-verb-conj}}. Thanks in advance.

  • renaming ”indicative future simple” into ”indicative future certain”
  • adding ”indicative future uncertain”
    • formed the same way as ”indicative future simple”, but with "a" for all back vowels and "ə" for all front vowels.


Formation of future uncertain
1SG indicative present simple 1SG indicative future uncertain
oluram olaram
qorxuduram qorxudaram
oxuyuram oxuyaram
deyirəm deyərəm
böyüdürəm böyüdərəm
üşüyürəm üşüyərəm
görürəm görərəm
alıram alaram
sarsıdıram sarsıdaram
anlayıram anlayaram
verirəm verərəm
edirəm edərəm
çatıram çataram

Allahverdi Verdizade (talk) 10:55, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Per discussion we had on the Discord, I have implemented these changes now. SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 16:47, 11 August 2018 (UTC)

Add audio pronunciation[edit]

When I click on the "Add audio pronunciation" link, I get the error message "Error: NotFoundError: The object can not be found here". — SGconlaw (talk) 13:30, 12 August 2018 (UTC)

Anyone can help? — SGconlaw (talk) 12:21, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Expansion of the {{attention}} template[edit]

The {{attention}} template can be used to request help from a user with knowledge of a particular language. It would be good if we could also use it to get help in a specific knowledge area, For instance, I would like a mathematician to improve the definition of quasicyclic. Is this possible? SemperBlotto (talk) 14:45, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

  • Ah - I have found the "topic=" parameter. Let's see. SemperBlotto (talk) 14:52, 14 August 2018 (UTC)

{{xlit}} template[edit]

Can someone add an optional parameter to this template to write first letter in uppercase? For example check here, there is no way to write "Mukriyanî" (instead of "mukriyanî"). Thanks.--Calak (talk) 15:21, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

@Calak: You can use the "magic word" {{ucfirst:}} to do that. — Eru·tuon 04:00, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. All templates (with transliteration) have same problem for languages which don't distinguish case, so I think we should find a fundamental solution.--Calak (talk) 11:54, 16 August 2018 (UTC)
@Calak: What do you mean by a fundamental solution? {{ucfirst:}} seems sufficient in this case, unless you want to do something else. — Eru·tuon 18:51, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

Quotations automatically expanded[edit]

When I copied and pasted a definition that included quotations into the "Tea Room" page, in order to illustrate a layout problem, the quotations were automatically expanded, rather than appearing as a "quotations" dropdown list as on the original page. The lines in question were:

  1. (figuratively, depreciatory) A woman, particularly
    • 1785, Francis Grose, A Classical Dictionary of the Vulgar Tongue:
      Hen, a woman. A cock and hen club; a club composed of men and women.
    1. (Britain, informal) A bride-to-be, particularly in the context of her "hen night" festivities.

As you can see, it happens here too. Does anyone know whether this is by design (and if so, why), or whether there is a glitch somewhere? Mihia (talk) 18:05, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

The Javascript that hides quotations only functions in the main namespace. DTLHS (talk) 18:08, 15 August 2018 (UTC)
OK, thanks. (I wonder why ...) 19:56, 15 August 2018 (UTC)

Some new modules for Finnish and whether to integrate them[edit]

My sandbox right now has some new stuff: Special:Permalink/50144302; more precisely a template showing off a modified version of Module:fi-nominals with added support for term with multiple inflections, such as for multiword terms. There are also possessive form tables, and that module too heavily relies on fi-nominals, where it could possibly be merged into fi-nominals. Would it be worth it to implement either of these two and integrate one or both into fi-nominals? SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:19, 16 August 2018 (UTC)

(If anyone wants to look at and improve the code, feel free to) SURJECTION ·talk·contr·log· 18:19, 16 August 2018 (UTC)