User talk:Fumiko Take

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Again, welcome! --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 02:29, 31 July 2014 (UTC)

Headword templates[edit]

Don't forget to use headword templates such as {{vi-noun}} or {{vi-verb}} or {{vi-adj}}. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 03:06, 24 August 2014 (UTC)

Accelerated Vietnamese entries[edit]


You can use {{vi-new}} to create new Vietnamese entries. It's easy to use. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 12:26, 25 September 2014 (UTC)

Thanks. But how does it work?Fumiko Take (talk) 13:03, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Well, I created ca sĩ by using {{subst:vi-new||[[singer]]|h=歌士}} on the red link. Preview, save, that's it. 歌士 was created by {{subst:vi-new/ht|ca sĩ|[[singer]]}}. Currently it doesn't support synonyms, related terms, etc. and does only one PoS at a time but we can ask User:Wyang to enhance it. There are also similar templates for other East Asian languages, including Japanese. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 23:08, 25 September 2014 (UTC)
Thanks again. Fumiko Take (talk) 02:50, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
You're welcome. I see you don't use it. You can try making "ban công" by using {{subst:vi-new||[[balcon]]|e={{etyl|fr|vi}} {{m|fr|balcon}}}}. Let me know if you need more help. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:04, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Honestly, I checked your created page "ca sĩ" and didn't see anything different. I'm not a Wiki guy, so those codes don't really make sense to me. I still don't understand how the template works.Fumiko Take (talk) 03:09, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The result won't be different from manual work but you can see in the history how entries are created. Let's try a simple entry, like I suggested. :)
  1. Click on a red link (the normal way), e.g. "ban công"
  2. Paste template example into the edit area, e.g. {{subst:vi-new||[[balcon]]|e={{etyl|fr|vi}} {{m|fr|balcon}}}}
  3. Click "preview" and "save" if you're happy with what you see. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:24, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The above example will make a noun. If you need e.g. a verb, you'd need "subst:vi-new|v...", etc. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:26, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Sadly, I'm not quite happy with the preview result. This is what I got looks like.
Fumiko Take (talk) 03:38, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
Your image looks right. I've just made it. Take a look. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:53, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
There are two things. First, the fonts are messed up. Secondly, there's no way that "ban công" has a Sino-Vietnamese origin.Fumiko Take (talk) 03:58, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
I have manually changed etymology. I'll ask Wyang to fix it. Maybe I did something wrong. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:56, 26 September 2014 (UTC)
The template is designed well for native and Sino-Vietnamese terms. e= parameter needs fixing or you can do without it, just {{subst:vi-new||[[balcon]]}} and then add/fix manually. For Sino-Vietnamese, use |h=. I can't see problems with fonts. The result is the same as manual editing. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:06, 26 September 2014 (UTC)


Hi Fumiko Take, thanks for your great Vietnamese contributions lately. I rewrote {{vi-pron}} and Module:vi-pron yesterday to make it more compatible with non-native syllables, for example Pa-le-xtin, and added an error detection step to catch unanalysable syllables. There are a number of pages in Category:Pages with module errors, all of which are transcriptions of foreign words. Could you please take a look and add the phonetic spelling for each in {{vi-pron}}? e.g. chủ nghĩa Marx has {{vi-pron|chủ nghĩa Mác}}. Thank you! Wyang (talk) 23:02, 27 September 2014 (UTC)

By "adding the phonetic spelling" you mean adding manually, by typing the phonetic characters?Fumiko Take (talk) 02:27, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
I meant typing a phonetic spelling in the template, like {{vi-pron|chủ nghĩa Mác}} for chủ nghĩa Marx. It's all right, I have fixed all of them. Thanks. Wyang (talk) 11:18, 28 September 2014 (UTC)
Oh, I didn't know the template can be used that way.Fumiko Take (talk) 11:37, 28 September 2014 (UTC)

bức as a classifier?[edit]

If the Viat Namese syllable/word bức is a classifier, what is it used for? I've seen it at tường, tự sướng, and thư. Judging from the meanings of those words, is the classifier used for messages and certain other things? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 15:28, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo: From what I know about classifiers, "bức" can be one, to indicate some types of flat objects (or rather flat) such as walls (bức tường), barriers (bức vách), letters (bức thư), telegrams (bức điện), paintings (bức hoạ, bức tranh, bức vẽ) and photos (bức ảnh). I have no idea what the hell "bức tự sướng" is, but "bức ảnh tự sướng" is okay.Fumiko Take (talk) 02:14, 6 January 2015 (UTC)

Spelling reforming convention for what pronunciation?[edit]

Hi, I also have another question for you. Does your Viat Namese spelling reforming convention apply to only the northern pronunciation? Or is it flexible when it comes to the central and southern pronunciations? (For some reason, your alphabet reform reminds me of Reading Rainbow and its theme song, along with a Viat Namese children's book titled Yellow, Where Are You? or something like along those lines that I came across at DeviantArt.) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:27, 11 January 2015 (UTC)

@Lo Ximiendo I'm surprised! I didn't think anyone would pay attention to those thingies I wrote. Anyway, yes, it only applies to the Northern pronunciation. One word can be pronounced very, very different from one accent to another, so that creating a phonetic alphabet that can apply to all dialects would be impossible. The traditional alphabet also only applies to the northern dialect, and that's where I started from.Fumiko Take (talk) 07:56, 12 January 2015 (UTC)
@Lo Ximiendo P/S: What is the original title of Yellow, Where Are You?
Translate the phrase "Yellow, Where are You?", if you want, and maybe I could use the translated phrase to look for the book pages of the story. (Off topic here, but what does the word banh mean? I extracted it from the Vietnamese edition of Wiktionary. Also off topic: I created this adapted writing system which I call Arabetan, and I'm not sure what Wyang could think of it.) --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:45, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
@Lo Ximiendo Well, that could be "Vàng ơi, con/em/mày ở đâu?". No need for saying "off topic", just post a new one. "Banh", as a noun, is a dated word in Northern dialects, and a colloquial one in Southern dialects (which might be derived from the French term "balle"), for "bóng" ("ball"). It is also, as a verb, an informal term for the action to spread/widely open something, as in "banh háng" (spread your legs) or "banh miệng túi" (widely open a sack), "banh mắt nhìn" (open your eyes), etc.
Taking reference from the Vietnamese Wiktionary, I'd say it's also an adverb meaning "badly" and going with verbs meaning "destroy/devastate", as in "phá banh" (destroy very badly); and a noun derived from the French term "bagne", as in "banh ở Côn Đảo" (Bagne de Poulo Condor)
I don't read the Arabic and Tibetan scripts so I can't really comment anything on that matter. Why don't you show it to Wyang and ask him what he would think about it?Fumiko Take (talk) 08:06, 24 January 2015 (UTC)
I just found what I had been looking for, and the title is "Màu Vàng ở đâu?" --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 12:31, 24 January 2015 (UTC)

nước, người and tiếng words -countries and demonyms[edit]


Would you or Vietnamese linguists consider country names with nước to be sum of parts, e.g. nước Anh or nước Nga? What about demonyms with người, as in người Việt and language names with tiếng: tiếng Việt? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:35, 28 January 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev 1. I don't know about the linguists. As far as I know, we Vietnamese people are pretty lazy in terms of phonetic matters, that it to say we always prefer short words that contain two or less syllables. On news channels, they mostly call countries by their names only, when referring to political matters and sport teams, and they don't often include "nước". For example, "quan hệ giữa Trung Quốc và Nhật Bản rất căng thẳng", "Brazil thắng với tỉ số 1-0", etc. In fact, "nước" is not used very often at all (I personally barely use it). It usually goes with Sino-Vietnamese country names that contain 1 syllable such as Anh, Nga or Mỹ, but only occasionally (well, you do get a lot of hits on Google, but that's not the case); I guess that is to make the name sound a little "better" (two-syllabled Vietnamese words might be the most common). It should not be considered to be in compound with the country names, i.e. I don't think "nước Anh" or "nước Nga" are valid entries.
2. If you think it's valid to treat "Doitsu-jin" (ドイツ人) or "Doitsu-go" (ドイツ語) in Japanese as individual words, I think it would be no problem to do that to "người Việt" or "tiếng Việt".Fumiko Take (talk) 04:43, 28 January 2015 (UTC)
Cảm ơn, Fumiko-san :) I won't make entries with nước but I may with người and tiếng in the future, as I did with người Nga, tiếng Nga was created by a bot. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:50, 28 January 2015 (UTC)


Are you really only en-1? Your writing here looks higher than that. And how did you come by a Japanese username? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │ Tala við mig 07:51, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

@Eirikr May I take that as a compliment :)? To be honest, most of my knowledge is acquired by self-study, only using illegitimate and non-supervised reference sources (such as Wiki websites). I'm still a college student studying English as a second language, and I'm not qualified enough to call myself anything more than en-1. You'll see as you read through my writing, there are many shameful grammatical errors I've made. I'm just glad that everyone seems to understand what I say. As for the username, I'm a Japan person (I love everything about Japan) and I've "translated" my real name into such a Japan-ish username. ばかFumikotalk 09:05, 28 February 2015 (UTC)

gọi, xe tắc xi[edit]


Could you check them, please? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 03:27, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev Lol, check what, exactly? ばかFumikotalk 03:52, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

For accuracy, of course, my Vietnamese is very basic. :). If nothing strikes you as incorrect, then it's OK. gọi could use etymology, too, if known. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:00, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev I asked you that because I haven't seen anything wrong about those entries. Keep up the good work! ばかFumikotalk 04:25, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Translation requests[edit]

Hi Fumiko-san,

There's a rise in Category:Translation requests (Vietnamese) made by Hippietrail. Not sure if you wish to serve any of them but some are important and useful terms. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 22:25, 12 April 2015 (UTC)

I'm glad too help when available. ばかFumikotalk 01:02, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Thanks. These giọng (vi) ‎(voice), tiếng (vi) ‎(language) have to be giọng (vi) (voice), tiếng (vi) (language). Please "Qualifier:" field, not "Transliteration:". :)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 01:09, 13 April 2015 (UTC)
Okay. ばかFumikotalk 01:10, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Australia in Vietnamese[edit]

Hi Fumiko-san,

You have removed the Vietnamese section I made. Isn't it the alternative spelling of Ô-xtrây-li-a? According to the Vietnamese Wiktionary and Wikipedia, "Australia" is also a Vietnamese word. Do you think they are wrong? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:11, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev Although the practice of adopting foreign spellings is very common, it is still unclear whether that's the "proper" and "official" way to borrowing terms or not. Some say it is, some say it isn't. Some linguists don't even call adopted English spellings loanwords, but just "English words used in Vietnamese contexts". I think it's better not to treat "Australia" as a Vietnamese word, for consistency. I can very well say "Cool quá đi! Nhạc nghe epic thiệt!", but I don't think there's anyone who would agree that "cool" and "epic" are Vietnamese words. They are just "English words used in Vietnamese contexts". Treating "Australia" as a Vietnamese word may lead to problems, because that kind of practice can make virtually every English word Vietnamese. ばかFumikotalk 13:21, 3 May 2015 (UTC)
I see your point, thanks. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:29, 3 May 2015 (UTC)

tủ ướp lạnh, phòng ướp lạnh[edit]

Hi Fumiko,

Would you say these two merit full entries, just like tủ lạnh? Just want to make sure. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:22, 5 May 2015 (UTC)

@Atitarev tủ lạnh is just a household device, so it's easy to determine. As for tủ ướp lạnh and phòng ướp lạnh, not so easy, at least for me. Damn, now you see how sucky the modern Vietnamese spelling is? Sorry, I can't help you with this. ばかFumikotalk 02:43, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
It does cause even more problems for learners, when you don't know the word boundaries. It makes some sense to me, though. It's not easy to decide, since most Vietnamese syllables have a separate meaning. Well, Vietnamese is not the only language like this - Chinese, Japanese, Thai, Lao, Burmese, etc. don't use spaces, which is the same as using spaces between each syllable in this case as with Vietnamese, which also makes definition of a word for these languages harder, for us, it's Wiktionary:CFI and transliteration, e.g. I don't know if Thai ต้มยำ (tom yum) should be transliterated as "dtômyam" or "dtôm yam", it's one word but it makes sense to break it up into etymological units - "to boil" + "to mix" (ต้ม + ยำ). If Thai was written in Roman letters, would they spell it "dtômyam", "dtôm-yam" or "dtôm yam"? :)
I suggest to make a choice easier by using selected (approved) dictionaries - if a word appears in a dictionary (not English to Vietnamese but the other way around), then we could include it and maybe some other criteria. If you don't have strong objections I might make those entries, anyway (with a reference) but I can only find these two in English-Vietnamese dictionaries. They can be deleted later, if they fail CFI. Sorry for the long message. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:02, 6 May 2015 (UTC)
Fair point. I find it a little easier to see word boundaries in Chinese even though I don't really speak Chinese, since word orders, classifiers and markers are pretty much straightforward; in Vietnamese however, you can hardly tell classifiers and markers apart from other words, and the word orders are just downright messy since the Vietnamese have borrowed a lot of Chinese words and phrases and haven't modified them whatsoever. ばかFumikotalk 04:14, 6 May 2015 (UTC)


Hi, according to the Dictionarium Annamiticum Lusitanum et Latinum it says that the word should be ꞗĕào (could you also perhaps help fix-up the article?) instead. Do you happen to have another source? DerekWinters (talk) 06:57, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@DerekWinters Ugh, nope. I created it from the link on B with flourish. I guess someone got it wrong. ばかFumikotalk 12:16, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
@DerekWinters P/s: No they didn't, as seen here. There must have been some sort of typo in the dictionary itself. ばかFumikotalk 12:25, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
Wait but your file is the same as mine... Page 44 of yours shows ꞗĕào. But also, with the low falling tone on the 'a' in vào, it should (right?) make sense for the it to have been ꞗĕào. Also, would you rather have Middle Vietnamese in chu nom or quoc ngu? Most of the literature by the Vietnamese seems to have been done in chu nom, but there is some stuff (including this dictionary) done in quoc ngu. DerekWinters (talk) 15:51, 13 May 2015 (UTC)
@DerekWinters I'm not saying I'm right. Look at that very page I refer you to, it's there. I'm saying that there might be a typo in the Dictionarium itself. You are very welcome to request that the entry I created be deleted, or you can make it a redirect page.
I'm not sure if I have the right to have the so-called Middle Vietnamese in a specific script. I'm not quite an expert on those things. Chữ Nôm might have been favored at that point of history, but as far as I know, it was never standardized. If we were to have Middle Vietnamese in Chữ Nôm, what would be the standard? A given syllable can be represented by multiple different characters, for example chó can be represented by 犬, 犾, 㹥, 𤝹, 𤠚 or 𦢞. ばかFumikotalk 03:43, 14 May 2015 (UTC)


Hullo. Would you like to translate this word? --Romanophile (talk) 10:14, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Romanophile We can use verbs such as "nói mỉa, mỉa mai" as if they were nouns (similar to English verb-ings), or we can add "sự" before them. ばかFumikotalk 10:17, 16 May 2015 (UTC)


Please see Wiktionary:About given names and surnames#Inclusion, the last line, and entries like Lassie, Fido, Tiddles. There are no categories for names of animals. "A common name for female dogs" might be a better definition than "given name". I assume Mi-lu is common? Do male and female dogs have different names in Vietnamese? Thank you for your entries for Vietnamese names.--Makaokalani (talk) 11:51, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

@Makaokalani Well fair enough, I just didn't know where to look for that information. Mi-lu should be common because I learned it before I even knew it was French. ばかFumikotalk 12:51, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Vietnamese etymology[edit]

Hi Fumiko Take,

I've seen that you've added some Vietnamese etymologies.

Where did you learn about Vietnamese etymology?

I'm interested to learn for myself.

Deschutron (talk) 06:59, 1 June 2015 (UTC)

@Deschutron Technically speaking, I've never learned about it. I simply extract data from Mon-Khmer comparative dictionary for etymologies of many so-called "native" words. I also use a book for etymologies of loanwords. I also google for etymologies of place names. Some words are (sort of) obviously Sino-Vietnamese, so I just need to look for the proper Han characters here. There've been some lucky guesses on the etymology in question, such as of phù thuỷ. ばかFumikotalk 07:53, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@Deschutron P/s: As for names derived from Russian, they are just guesses, based on the mere fact that Russian was once a trend in Vietnam, and many Vietnamese have lived and studied in Russia. ばかFumikotalk 07:59, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@Deschutron P/s: Compound words are pretty much straightforward, and they're basically homework. ばかFumikotalk 08:01, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@Fumiko Take: Thankyou for the references.
I've also been reading about Vietnamese etymology.
I've seen the Mon-Khmer comparative dictionary. It's a great resource.
I've also used The Tower of Babel Project, and for Han-Viet readings,
I've been thinking of putting etymologies I think I've found on Wiktionary, but I don't know how to make sure that they're accurate and referenced enough.
How do you judge whether an etymology is good enough to put on Wiktionary?
Deschutron (talk) 08:48, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
@Deschutron Thanks for the starling website. Good to know about it.
The comparative dictionary is pretty reliable. Other than a few typos, its content has been contributed by well-known linguistics such as Michel Ferlus, H.L. Shorto and Paul Sidwell. These authors are frequently cited in in linguistic papers. "Native" Vietnamese root words are all reconstructed, so it's basically impossible to make sure they're all accurate, since different authors use different ways of reconstruction. You can always cite the sources to make your work more reliable, but bear in mind some sources are stated specifically not to be cited, 'cause they may be a work in progress and less reliable than others. I trust my book 'cause it was written by a linguist who work at the Institute of Linguistics. I don't learn about etymology so I don't usually judge what's good enough, except for some BS like this. Sometimes just a little common sense will help. It's great that you're giving a thought before you start doing the thing; I've been through many ridiculous and false pieces of information which are typical for a wiki website. ばかFumikotalk 10:08, 1 June 2015 (UTC)
Thankyou for your thoughts, and the etymologies. Deschutron (talk) 00:27, 2 June 2015 (UTC)

Translations from non-English entries[edit]

Hi Fumiko,

Non-English don't get translations, they should only be in English entries.

(BTW, sorry I didn't answer you ping on Han tu entries - I just started a contract, was too busy but I'll get back on this.)--Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:27, 3 June 2015 (UTC)

Got it. ばかFumikotalk 04:28, 3 June 2015 (UTC)


Hey buddy, it is probably possible to automate sorting in various Vietnamese templates. It seems the steps required are:

  1. Strip all diacritics;
  2. Strip all spaces;
  3. Convert everything to lowercase.

What do you think? Wyang (talk) 23:50, 19 June 2015 (UTC)

@Wyang Not really, that's just my way, since we've got no decent-looking sorting for Vietnamese entries yet. I'd recommend the sorting employed in dictionaries published by the Institute of Linguistics and Vietnam National University Publishing House as a model:

  • Letters with non-tonal diacritics are considred as letters on their own right: Ăă, Ââ, Đđ, Êê, Ôô, Ơơ, Ưư.
  • Capital and small letters are treated equally.
  • Alphabetic order: Aa, Ăă, Ââ, Bb, Cc, Dd, Đđ, Ee, Êê, Gg, Hh, Ii, Kk, Ll, Mm, Nn, Oo, Ôô, Ơơ, Pp, Qq, Rr, Ss, Tt, Uu, Ưư, Vv, Xx, Yy.
    (Note: I'm not sure about Ff, Jj, Ww, Zz which are not usually considered "Vietnamese" and not listed in the said dictionaries)
  • Letters with tonal diacritics are not considered as seperate letters, are listed after letters with no diacritics in the following order:
  1. Huyền: Àà, Ằằ, Ầầ, Èè, Ềề, Ìì, Òò, Ồồ, Ờờ, Ùù, Ừừ, Ỳỳ
  2. Hỏi: Ảả, Ẳẳ, Ẩẩ, Ẻẻ, Ểể, Ỉỉ, Ỏỏ, Ổổ, Ởở, Ủủ, Ửử, Ỷỷ
  3. Ngã: Ãã, Ẵẵ, Ẫẫ, Ẽẽ, Ễễ, Ĩĩ, Õõ, Ỗỗ, Ỡỡ, Ũũ, Ữữ, Ỹỹ
  4. Sắc: Áá, Ắắ, Ấấ, Éé, Ếế, Íí, Óó, Ốố, Ớớ, Úú, Ứứ, Ýý
  5. Nặng: Ạạ, Ặặ, Ậậ, Ẹẹ, Ệệ, Ịị, Ọọ, Ộộ, Ợợ, Ụụ, Ựự, Ỵỵ
ばかFumikotalk 04:54, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
@Wyang P/S: By the way, can you help with the sorting of Nivkh, Muong and Rade entries? ばかFumikotalk 05:08, 20 June 2015 (UTC)
Thanks for the reply. I'm afraid this is too complicated for me. As far as I know, other languages using diacritics simply disregard the diacritics during sorting, and this is achieved using the sort_key function in language data modules such as Module:languages/data2 (See Category:French nouns for effect). Stripping all the tonal diacritics shouldn't be difficult, but sorting them according to original tones is tricky - one possibility could be using auxillary tonal numbers, e.g. "gà công nghiệp" -> "ga2 công1 nghiêp6". I'm not sure this would sort them in the way intended, and how to incorporate it into the existing infrastructure (unless it is in {{vi-IPA}}). You may want to ask in the Tea Room to see if other people have better suggestions. Wyang (talk) 05:45, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

大鹿#Japanese category[edit]

Re: Magic, please add a sense line under the appropriate etymology when you get a chance. TIA (sense 2), ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:33, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Cheers, thank you! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:48, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Feedback on Japanese entry formatting[edit]

Thank you for your extensive work recently on Japanese entries. We don't have very many JA editors, and I appreciate your participation.

I've noticed some trends in your editing that I wanted to bring up, in the hopes of better consistency across all JA entries.

  1. Apostrophes in sort arguments
    These are only appropriate when the very first mora has 濁音 (one apostrophe at the end of the sort arg string) or 半濁音 (two apostrophes at the end of the sort arg string). These are workarounds for collation (sorting) bugs in the underlying MediaWiki software. Examples:
    • ゲット ‎(getto) should have the sort arg けっと'. Otherwise, it shows up in any category index under げ, which is not how Japanese dictionaries work. Instead, we want it sorted under け and collated as if it were spelled けっと in hiragana, but it should appear after any entries that actually are spelled けっと in hiragana. The apostrophe on the end ensures that this entry is collated as desired.
    • ペット ‎(petto) should have the sort arg へっと''. Otherwise, it shows up incorrectly indexed at ぺ. All 半濁音 entries should be collated the same way as 濁音 entries, except they should come after the 濁音. Adding two apostrophes does the trick.
    • ‎(tabi) should have the sort arg たび. The initial mora is 清音, so collation by first mora works just fine. 濁音 or 半濁音 on any other mora doesn't cause any problems in the MediaWiki index creation process, so we don't need any special handling.
  2. head arguments in POS headers
    We don't use these in JA entries. This feature was apparently added to the POS header templates to allow for cases like Latin or Russian, where the POS line shows additional diacritics that are not present in the headword itself. Have a look at россиянин ‎(rossijanin) or solido for examples. Note that you won't see the head parameter if you look at the wikisource -- the head functionality has been absorbed into the language-specific templates.
    One alternate use case is to link to specific words in a longer phrase, such as at get out. This is a workaround for cases where the etymology is not explicitly given. For JA entries, this use case is strongly discouraged in favor of providing full etymologies instead.
  3. Multiple readings in a single POS
    While it is now technically possible to add multiple readings to a single POS header (after the JA POS headers were updated a few months ago to include an altread parameter), this is very poor practice: each distinct reading of a Japanese headword has its own independent etymology, and it often also has distinct usage details.
    Lumping multiple distinct readings into one POS header is confusing and inaccurate. For instance, {{ja-noun|とんぼ|トンボ|とんぼう|トンボウ|hhira=とんばう}} suggests that とんばう is the historical hiragana rendering of modern とんぼ, which is incorrect -- とんぼ derives from とんぼう, which derives from とんばう, so とんばう is only the historical hiragana for modern とんぼう.
  4. Katakana use
    In general, only use katakana in POS headers for terms often written in katakana (such as biological terms). For pronunciation templates, only use katakana if the headword itself is given in katakana. Don't give katakana for obsolete or archaic terms and readings.
  5. Periods in kana strings
    Periods in kana strings are only used when the kana is transformed by the template into romaji. This is mostly done by POS headers, {{ja-usex}}, {{ja-r}}, and similar templates. The purposes of these periods is to separate two kana with the same vowel value, when the two vowels should be rendered separately and not as one 長音, such as when the two vowels occur in different morphophonemic units. Examples:
    • 拾う > ひろ.う -- this forces the POS header template to render this in romaji as hirou, instead of hirō. The final u is the verb ending, which must be rendered separately.
    • 疲労 > ひろう -- this allows the POS header to render the romaji the default way, as hirō. This is correct in this case, as the final う is part of the same morphophonemic unit as the preceding ろ.
    Adding periods in other places doesn't do anything but clutter up the wikitext. ひ.ろう is treated exactly the same as ひろう.
  6. Yomi argument values
    Our handling of yomi is more rudimentary than I'd like at present, but it is what it is. In general, do not add yomi to the various templates ({{ja-kanjitab}}, {{ja-pron}}, etc.) unless the entire headword string matches that yomi value. Examples:
    • For 蜉蝣 ‎(fuyū), the fu reading for the first character is kan'yoon, but the reading for the second character is kan'on. Consequently, the only fitting yomi here is yomi=on for on'yomi.
    • For 伊弉諾 ‎(Izanagi), the first character has a goon and kan'yon of い, but the ざなぎ portion doesn't clearly belong to either of the remaining kanji. In this case, yomi=irr is correct, as this reading (as a whole) is irregular.
    • For 迦具土 ‎(Kagutsuchi), the first two characters have on'yomi of ka and gu, and the last character has a kun'yomi of tsuchi. These readings individually are regular, so yomi=irr isn't correct here. However, this isn't jūbakoyomi either, as that category is for two-character compounds where the first is on'yomi and the second is kun'yomi, and (in general) the meanings also match the combined meaning of the whole term. In this case, we have too many characters in an uneven distribution, and in fact, the characters are used purely for their phonetic values -- the kagu part here is an OJP root verb, the tsu is the OJP version of modern possessive ‎(no), and the chi part is another OJP root that matches the chi in ‎(chikara). So in this case, it is best (given the current state of our templates) to leave out the yomi parameter altogether.
  7. Whitespace
    Entry format in the wikisource is flexible with regard to how that wikisource is rendered into HTML by the software. There are still some general conventions maintained here at EN WT as a courtesy to our human editors.
    • Space after line-initial wikitext:
    Please maintain a single space after * # : and other wikitext at the start of a line.
    • Empty lines between sections:
    Please maintain a single empty line before header lines (such as ====Noun====), between POS templates and the sense lines, before the start of the category section at the end of an entry, and between the categories and the inter-wiki links.
  8. Alternative forms
    In almost all JA entries, these go after the ====Pronunciation==== sections. In kana entries, alt forms may go at the top of the entry if all of the alt forms apply to all given etymologies and readings.
  9. Entries spelled in kanji that have both hira and kata readings in the POS templates
    List the hiragana first, then the katakana. The POS templates should handle this better in future.
  10. Glosses and definitions
    For better usability, be sure to add a gloss (short definition) even on {{alternative spelling of}} sense lines that direct the user to another entry for the main spelling.
  11. Okurigana in {{ja-kanjitab}}
    The o1, o2, o3 etc. arguments are intended for okurigana (i.e. verb endings), not particles. Examples:
    • 振袖 ‎(furisode) would have {{ja-kanjitab|yomi=k|ふ|o1=り|そで}}, since the り is the verb ending in the kun'yomi for the verb 振る ‎(furu).
    • 海神 ‎(watatsumi) would have {{ja-kanjitab|yomi=k|わた|み}}, since the つ is actually a particle that is simply left implied, and is not part of the kun'yomi of either of these characters.
    • 上関 ‎(Kaminoseki) would have {{ja-kanjitab|yomi=k|かみ|せき}}, since the の is again a particle, and not part of the kun'yomi of either of these characters.

I know this is a lot. Feel free to ask if you have any questions.

Happy editing, and thanks again for your help in expanding our coverage of JA terms! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:14, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

@Eirikr Thank you for spending time to write all of this ^-^. I do have some questions that I didn't know whom I could ask. Well yeah, an admin, but I didn't know which one, lol.
  1. I don't really understand how the sorting works. I've seen entries where all dakuten are stripped off and small kana are replaced by their big counterparts. And there are also entries where only the dakuten of the first kana is removed. What's that about? Say, how do you sort these made up words: katsuha, katsuba, katsupa, gatsuha, gatsuba, gatsupa, kahha, kabba, kappa, gahha, gabba, gappa, katsuhata, katsubata, katsupata, shiya, sha, fua, fa?
  2. Periods, done. But when exactly do you add spaces or hyphens between kana in {{ja-noun}} or {{ja-pos}}? Does 鴨嘴 need spaces?
  3. There are very limited useful sources on Japanese etymology, so I'm not that confident to give full etymologies for many words (especially if they're written with kanji only; for all I know they could have been either borrowed from Chinese or coined by the Japanese themselves). Also, I thought it'd be useful to add the head argument, for long compounds such as 国際補助語. But if this is discouraged, do I have to add an empty Etymology section with {{rfe}} or something?
  4. Does kanyoon mean the same as kanyoyomi? It looks like Nihon (日本) is not kanyoon and is kanyoyomi at the same time.
  5. Why isn't jubakoyomi 重箱読み qualified for jubakoyomi? Clearly, the first kanji is read with onyomi; the second with kunyomi (and so does the third). What exactly is the criteria? Are jubakoyomi and yutoyomi applied strictly to words of two Kanji with no kana in between? According to the word lists on this page and this page, that doesn't seem to be the case.
  6. How to create entries for historical hiragana? Is historical katakana a thing?
  7. There may be some bugs with the {{ja-pron}}. For example:
  • (Irregular reading)
  • (Tokyo) ッシュツ [shìsshútsú] (Heiban - [0])
  • IPA(key): [ɕiɕʲːɯᵝt͡sɯᵝ] --> Does any Japanese actually geminate [ɕʲ]? Sounds so unreal.
  • Kun'yomi
  • (Tokyo) サギ [nòúꜜsàgì] (Nakadaka - [2])
  • IPA(key): [no̞ːsa̠ɡ̃i] --> How to seperate no from usagi? There's no actual long noo in this pronunciation, right? Adding periods or spaces doesn't seem to work on this template. (By the way, how can I exclude the [[Category:Japanese terms with IPA pronunciation]] from this page?) ばかFumikotalk 02:20, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
  • All good questions. I just got some contract work in so I don't have time to answer in full right now, unfortunately. A few quick responses:
  1. Sorting and kana strings is a big, complicated subject -- complicated by the fact that MediaWiki's back-end support for Japanese is spotty at best. I've personally tested first-mora changes to see how indexing works, but I haven't tested as much how differences in later morae affect indexing, not enough to fully answer your questions. I know how sorting _should_ work, based on Japanese collation standards, but that's not strictly how MediaWiki is implemented, unfortunately. I'll look into this further.
  2. Spaces happen between clearly distinct words, where the whole is commonly considered to be a phrase consisting of multiple words. This gets a little deeper into Japanese norms, and is a bit fuzzy, inasmuch as written Japanese itself doesn't use whitespace much. Hyphens we've generally avoided, but I know some are still floating around, and I've done my own experimentation with them here and there. Generally, hyphens have happened when a compound term is composed of mostly-discrete individual terms, but where one of the later terms in the compound has rendaku.
    Re: 鴨嘴, I'd say this is probably treated as a single term (i.e. no spaces in romaji), albeit a term that originated as a phrase.
  3. Re: etyms, understood. One option is to give it a shot at using {{compound}} and the like, and if you're really uncertain, you can always flag an entry with {{rfe}}, {{rfv-etymology}}, or even just {{attention}}.
  4. Kanyoon should mean the same as kanyoyomi. The on just means sound, while the yomi means reading -- in the context of kanji, that's basically the same thing. I'll have a look at the 日本 entry to try to figure out what's going on. (It's probably just something with one of the templates.)
  5. Jūbakoyomi and yutōyomi, as I've understood the terms, refer to two-character compounds. This matches the underlying etyma as well: 重箱 and 湯桶 are each two-character terms. As soon as you get a longer compound, like three or four or more kanji, jūbakoyomi and yutōyomi stop working so well as descriptors. I've proposed a different model in the past for {{ja-kanjitab}}, that would allow us to individually specify the readings for each kanji in a way that would work for longer terms, but no one has undertaken the task of recoding the template yet. (Granted, that will be a complicated task, and we're all just volunteers -- my comment here isn't a complaint, just a recognition of how things are happening.)
  6. Re: historical hiragana, we haven't yet come up with a consensus view for how, or even if, we should create these entries. We've been adding hhira to entries so far, so that anyone who looks up an old spelling can still find something (provided we've created the corresponding entry).
    Historically, phonetic Japanese (i.e. kana) was written using a mix of standard hiragana and man'yōgana in the long Tokugawa period, then mostly in katakana in the Meiji and Taisho eras, with the spelling shifting over to standardized hiragana some time in (I think) the 1940's spelling reforms. The historical spellings would have been written in either hiragana or katakana, depending on the time period and the individual writer's preferences. We've standardized on hiragana here at EN WT.
    Note that the historical spellings were probably phonetic when they first appeared. So ‎(uo) with the historical kana spelling of うを would have been pronounced more like uwo. Likewise, 創造 ‎(sōzō) was pronounced closer to sauzau earlier in history, and that is reflected in the historical kana spelling of さうざう. The 1940's spelling reforms updated kana spellings to more closely match modern pronunciations.
  7. And there are definitely bugs in {{ja-pron}}, unfortunately.  :)   It looks like you've discovered one there on the 野兎 entry -- giving a kana string of の.うさぎ should produce the expected romaji and IPA spellings, distinguishing the o and the u, but it doesn't. I think User:Wyang is the current expert on the code in {{ja-pron}}. (Linking his username here should ping him, so hopefully he'll see this part of the thread.)
    FWIW, there are geminate [ɕ] sounds in Japanese: 出社 ‎(shussha), ずっしり ‎(zusshiri), どっしゃぶり ‎(dosshaburi), and so forth.
Aaand, I really need to get cracking on my work. Hope the above helps somewhat in the meantime! ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 06:39, 8 July 2015 (UTC)
PS: other (at least semi-) active JA editors include Anatoli, Shinji, and Haplology, for starters. You can browse through the users listed at Category:User_ja, and their respective Contributions pages, to get some further idea of who is active.
PPS: I'm embarrassed that I forgot to mention Nibiko, who is also quite active. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 19:09, 8 July 2015 (UTC)

"- and allies" Categories[edit]

I named these categories because I couldn't think of a better way to word it, but I've since come up with "- family plants". Since you're the only one other than me who's ever used a few of these categories, I'm going to be simply swapping them in the single entries that use them and will be deleting the old categories, without the usual process. Since you have used these categories, I thought it would be a good idea to let you know, though. Thanks! Chuck Entz (talk) 19:30, 11 July 2015 (UTC)

Thanks. Good to know. ばかFumikotalk 01:01, 12 July 2015 (UTC)

Etymology at 社会#Japanese[edit]

Heya Fumiko --

I noticed in this edit that you'd added an etymology for 社会. The history of this term is still a little unclear to me, but from reading ja:w:社会#.E8.AA.9E.E6.BA.90 and, it's pretty clear that this term did not originate from a Chinese term meaning “religious public gathering”.

Could you see about reworking that? I'm short on time and about to crash for the night, and my schedule for the next few days keeps me too busy to do much here.

Cheers, ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 07:04, 29 July 2015 (UTC)

@Eirikr I deduced the gloss from Thiều Chửu's dictionary, which says 社會 was some sort of a gathering involving sacrificing and stuff, and also cites 白兔記. That kind of makes sense given that the gloss of 社 is "sacrifice to the spirit of the soil". Well maybe "religious" is rather obscure, so how about "gathering where people offered sacrifices to the (soil?) god"? ばかFumikotalk 07:50, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
@Eirikr P/S: Also, according to Hanyu Wailaici Cidian (Dictionary of Chinese Loanwords), the Chinese 社會 was borrowed from the Japanese 社会, which was originally borrowed from "Ancient Chinese". ばかFumikotalk 07:56, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
  • I'm fine with the purported meaning of the Chinese term in ancient times. What mostly hit me was this line on the JA WP page:


So if the very word 社会 did not even exist in Japanese until 1826 or so, I suspect that the ancient Chinese meaning (much more likely the Middle Chinese meaning, since that was the linguistic period of Chinese from which most kango derive) isn't terribly relevant to the Japanese term, unless that same meaning was still extant when this term was borrowed.
... Or, alternatively, the JA WP description is misleading, and there was a term 社会 that existed in Japanese previously, but just with a different meaning -- perhaps more like the derivation of 自由, where an existing term was repurposed with a changed meaning to describe a newer concept. But if this latter possibility was the case, then what was the previous Japanese meaning of this term?
Shogakukan's KDJ states that the ultimate derivation is from the zh:w:近思錄 (Jìnsīlù) (ja:w:近思録 Kinshiroku in Japanese), a Confucian text published in 1176 as an introduction to the Cheng-Zhu school. The KDJ entry gives a quote from this work:

郷民為社会、為立科条、旌別善悪、使有勧有恥 (in KDJ) ---- 鄉民爲社會,爲立科條,旌別善惡,使有勸有恥。 (in Wikisource here)

The meaning by this point in Chinese history seems more like community, in a smaller sense. Can you find anything more about this? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:27, 29 July 2015 (UTC)
@Eirikr Wow, I had no idea this was this complicated. I always went with the second theory which says a handful Japanese terms that were introduced into Korean, Chinese and Vietnamese were actually taken from "Ancient Chinese", with new meanings assigned to them (such as 博士、文化、革命,共和、物理, etc.). Perhaps up until the 19th century, the Japanese meanings of those terms were still, to some extent, similar to the original ancient Chinese meanings (博士 wasn't "Ph.D.", but simply "scholar")? As for 社會, perhaps at some point in history, it developped a new meaning by extension, from just a "gathering" (or "cult"?) to a greater concept, "community", and when the Japanese tried to translate Western terms using older expressions, they made it even greater as "society"?
How about this definition from Kanjigen: ①昔、土地の神を中心として二十五戸を一つの単位とした、その集まり。また、社日をきめその日に行った部落の会合。②共同生活の集団。③世の中。世間。?
Or this explanation of the quotes from 近思録 from Nipponica: この場合には、社会とは、土地の神を祀るために地域の共通の祭祀の場に集合した人々、ひいては地域集団をさすものであったが、一定の土地とそこに住む人々との情的・社会的結合が強調されたため、地域的閉鎖性を乗り越えるには至らなかった。? ばかFumikotalk 03:38, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Korean romanization[edit]

Please note that when we give just one romanised form for a Korean word on the English Wiktionary, we do so using RR. Thanks! —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:26, 30 July 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, what Metaknowledge said. Fumiko-san, sorry for simply reverting your edit. It was easier that way using a mobile. BTW, the Korean and Japanese name for Georgia doesn't change overnight just because it has become official, not by Wiktionary criteria, anyway. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 06:23, 30 July 2015 (UTC)
Okay. No need to be sorry. ばかFumikotalk 07:19, 30 July 2015 (UTC)


Hi there,

I wanted to thank you for creating an entry on the word 'phê' – the slang meaning you provided isn't in any of the dictionaries that I have access to, so it's great to have it here! :)

Would you say that 'high' and 'stoned' could be considered appropriate English translations of 'phê'? I'd like to add a Vietnamese translation to the relevant entries.

Thanks! :) Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 12:46, 30 August 2015 (UTC)

@Pfftallofthemaretaken I'm glad to help. People say "phê" when they're satisfied and pleased, like when they are given a massage or simply on drugs. "High" sounds good, "stoned" sounds okay. ばかFumikotalk 07:47, 31 August 2015 (UTC)
Thanks! Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 17:07, 31 August 2015 (UTC)


Hi again, could you clarify the definition of the word 'dâm' you wrote a while back? You defined it as "being a pervert". The definition sounds very strange to me – what does it mean exactly? 'Pervert', 'perverted', 'to commit perverse acts', or maybe something else entirely? Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 13:48, 17 September 2015 (UTC)

I apologize for not being able to express clearly. "dâm" does not necessarily mean "perverted", given that the definition of "perverted" is "of, relating to, or practicing unusual or "kinky" sex". Just thinking about sex too much or having too much interest in it is enough for you to be called "dâm", that is, said sex isn't necessarily "kinky". But maybe it's just me, maybe "perverted" is adequate. I'd be grateful if you can catch the meaning and give a clearer definition. ばかFumikotalk 14:08, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
Hmm, if we're talking about an excessive interest in – or fixation on – sex, then I'd say a more correct translation would be 'lecherous' or 'sex-crazed'. Would you say that these are appropriate English equivalents of 'dâm'? Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 14:30, 17 September 2015 (UTC)
@Pfftallofthemaretaken Brilliant! ばかFumikotalk 01:08, 18 September 2015 (UTC)
Alright, thanks! Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 12:29, 18 September 2015 (UTC)

ngọn đuốc[edit]

Hi, I have just created an entry on ngọn đuốc, and I'm not sure I did the right thing. Is it a synonym for đuốc, or is ngọn a classifier in this case? Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 16:16, 22 September 2015 (UTC)

@Pfftallofthemaretaken I would go with the latter. The noun is "đuốc". "ngọn" functions just like "cái" or "chiếc". ばかFumikotalk 02:07, 23 September 2015 (UTC)

OK, thanks! Pfftallofthemaretaken (talk) 06:28, 23 September 2015 (UTC)


Hi, me again, I was wondering—have people in VN started using #ĐMCS, as an initialism, in speech? It's hard to assess the popularity of the trend just by reading about it on the Internet. I was wondering whether it's too soon or not to create an entry on this. that guy 22:46, 1 October 2015 (UTC)

@Pfftallofthemaretaken It's profanity for "địt mẹ cộng sản" (fuck communism/-ists). It's horrendous and might get you in jail if you say it, so I'm not sure if it's that popular to be added to Wiktionary. ばかFumikotalk 02:44, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I do know what it stands for, it's just that if I created địt mẹ cộng sản, it would probably be deemed a sum-of-parts and deleted. Therefore, I wanted to establish whether the initialism is used in speech. I see that a lot of people write 'ĐMCS' on all kinds of horizontal and vertical surfaces, and even on parts of their bodies. :) But I'm not sure whether it's enough to add the term to the dictionary. It should probably be used in speech too. Given the nature of the political regime in Vietnam, I don't think too many people would be dropping "địt mẹ cộng sản" in their everyday conversations on a regular basis, so perhaps they could substitute it with the initialism 'ĐMCS' , given that it's already in use in writing. Sort of like people using fubar in conversations in English. Have you ever heard anyone saying 'ĐMCS' yet? (I haven't.) that guy 13:54, 2 October 2015 (UTC)

@Pfftallofthemaretaken Maybe I have some times, but not enough that I remember clearly. Youngsters sometimes drop initialisms, maybe due to English Internet slang influence, but those are still not very popular like "OMG" or "WTF". There might be anti-communist youngsters from overseas (who are rumored to be in the US) who do that more often, but for all I know, that practice is not popular in Vietnam. ばかFumikotalk 01:56, 3 October 2015 (UTC)

Well, the author of the song that started the whole thing is in fact in the US, but most of those who use the phrase (and by 'use' I mean 'write on horizontal and vertical surfaces, as well as parts of their bodies') seem to be in Vietnam. Anyways, from what you're saying it looks like it's probably too early to add the initialism as an entry. Thanks for your input! :) that guy 11:34, 3 October 2015 (UTC)


Hi, one of your definitions of Giang is 'a female given name' . I'm pretty sure I've met guys named Giang, and a Google Images search of "Nguyễn Văn Giang" (in quotes) returns lots of male faces. Could the name actually be gender-neutral? that guy 19:10, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Awright. Although Giang is still a very girly name. ばかFumikotalk 03:45, 15 October 2015 (UTC)


Hello, I saw you add a lot of information onto Appendix:Proto-Mon-Khmer/ɗaak. Could you tell me where these informations come from? Thank you in advance. Pamputt (talk) 07:12, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

sealang ばかFumikotalk 12:28, 24 November 2015 (UTC)