Wiktionary:Requests for deletion

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All Wiktionary: namespace discussions 1 2 3 4 5 - All discussion pages 1 2 3 4 5

This is for pages in the main namespace. For all other pages, see Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Others.

This page is where users can propose and discuss the deletion of pages in the main namespace (see the nomination category). Requests are archived when a decision has been reached (be it deleted, kept, or transwikied); the deleting administrator should remember to sign.

Notes

• Terms that failed a request for verification are presumed invalid. They should not be resubmitted as the same term without adequate verification (see verification archives) and do not need duplicate listings here.
• Terms should be listed on Requests for verification if their attestation is being called into question.
• Section title should be exactly the wikified entry title, only. The entry should have the tag {{rfd}} at the top.
• Very blatantly obvious candidates for deletion should only be tagged with {{delete|Reason for deletion}} and not listed (here, nor elsewhere).
• The deletion of just part of a page may also be proposed here. If an entire section is being proposed for deletion, the tag {{rfd}} should be placed at the top; if only a sense is, the tag {{rfd-sense}} should be used, or the more precise {{rfd-redundant}} if it applies. In any of these cases, any editor (not necessarily an administrator) may act on the discussion.

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Good nomination guidelines - Page deletion guidelines - Overview of the deletion process - List of deletion templates, categories, etc. Start a new deletion nomination

Oldest tagged {{rfd}}s
No pages meet these criteria.

January 2008

Sheetrock

rfd-senses:

1. A wall made of Sheetrock.
2. Verb. To install a wall made of Sheetrock.

This is a trademarked term. We have an uncapitalized entry as well. I don't see how the trademarked, capitalized term can have these senses. I suppose it is possible that usage of the cap term includes these senses as well. I may be confusing the trademarking and the capitalization. DCDuring 01:04, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. Uncapitalized sense is the one people use when they actually use the term. bd2412 T 02:45, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I can't find any citations supporting the wall sense in either capitalized or uncapitalized forms. Unfortunately there are plenty of cites available for the verb sense in capitalized form, which muddies the waters a bit. DCDuring 02:55, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

This term is encountered very frequently in architecture/construction documents and translator’s dictionaries include it because so many translators have difficulty with it. For one thing, it is used very frequently in the industry as a generic informal synonym for drywall. Keep. However, I would say that the verb is always lowercase, and I don’t believe either Sheetrock or sheetrock is used to mean the wall itself. Sheetrock only means the gypsum panels, individually or collectively. —Stephen 20:28, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

As a homeowner I couldn't imagine deleting such a term. I actually added the lower-case version. The upper case version had some senses I didn't believe as well as the basic noun sense, which is hard to deny. I am just trying to sharpen up the entries. I was surprised at how often Sheetrock is used in print as a verb where I would have expected sheetrock. It looks like an author would be well advised to use drywall as a more generic term (noun and verb). Are you voting to keep the two disputed senses? DCDuring 23:01, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

No, not those, just the sense that we know to be right. I know that carpenters and architects are likely to capitalize the verb, but I think that they always mean the lowercase word when it’s a verb. I can’t imagine a valid need for the trademark as a verb. —Stephen 23:08, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

As an employee at the Home Depot, I will vouch for the first noun sense (drywall, plasterboard), as well as the verb. I suppose the third sense (a wall made of sheetrock) is valid, but I think it should be deleted anyway, since it's really just a part of the first definition (or perhaps simply appended to def #1. I have never heard the word used in the second sense, nor have I ever heard a plural form. It seems to me that the only sense which should be at the uppper-case entry is the brand name, with all the stuff we're currently looking at placed at the lower-case. Atelaes 23:14, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

I found it used in the plural in legal documents, where it may be written in the plural as a way of including any possible alternative. I could probably find three, but I don't think such documents are great examples of usage. DCDuring 23:56, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

delete both senses Παρατηρητής

Hammers

Spam. --Connel MacKenzie 16:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete team nickname; keep surname if authentic.—msh210℠ 17:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Subject this to a request for verification of use without context.—msh210℠ 17:51, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Definite keep, for reasons listed at Spurs above.--Dmol 21:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course Keep - also Spurs and the rest. Παρατηρητής

Gunners

Spam. --Connel MacKenzie 16:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

• Delete team nickname.—msh210℠ 17:46, 24 January 2008 (UTC) Subject this to a request for verification of use without context.—msh210℠ 17:50, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Definite keep, for reasons listed at Spurs above.--Dmol 21:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:48, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course Keep - does this Connel person know what spam is? Παρατηρητής 08:33, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Red Devils

Spam. --Connel MacKenzie 16:40, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Definite keep, for reasons listed at Spurs above.--Dmol 21:58, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Same rationale as I presented at #Spurs. The appendix is a good idea as an addition, and the lesser known nicknames could go there without the verification requirements of main namespace entries. __meco 14:42, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Bums

As above. But this deals with a US sports team. --Keene 17:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Why no RfV??? By what criteria is this per se deletable? DCDuring TALK 17:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's only listed here because it's a US term, in response to Connel's nominations of UK terms - so that all are treated equally. --Keene 17:47, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Delete as obvious spam. --Connel MacKenzie 17:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It is not obvious to me that this is spam, except in the sense of spam meaning any bit of internet posting that is not to one's taste. DCDuring TALK 18:30, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Subject this to a request for verification of use without context.—msh210℠ 17:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Cited DCDuring TALK 15:34, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Jints

As above. But this deals with a US sports team. --Keene 17:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete as above. --Connel MacKenzie 17:49, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Subject this to a request for verification of use without context.—msh210℠ 17:52, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Jints is a nickname for the New York Giants baseball team, derived from eye-dialect for New York dialect for Giants. Accordingly, I wuld think that we would be happy with it being in a sentence that did not include the words "New York" or "Giants".

Why is there a contest about RfDing sports team names? Most sports teams nicknames would seem to be fine if they are actually used. We may need some way to accommodate them when there are numerous referents of the same word {Broncos, Hornets, ...). Or we may insist on mentions outside of newspapers. DCDuring TALK 18:26, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Not a sentence, a broader context, I think.—msh210℠ 18:34, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:49, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Cited DCDuring TALK 15:07, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Athletics

Previously marked as "kept" - fell through the cracks, apparently. --Connel MacKenzie 17:48, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Comment. That link is of course Wiktionary:Requests for deletion/Archives/2006/08#Athletics, as Keene noted.—msh210℠ 17:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Delete this one: unlike the others nominated for deletion above, this is the official name of the team, and is capitalized (initial letter). Anyone wanting to know what it is will check WP or the like. As CFI notes, "To be included, the use of the company name other than its use as a trademark (i.e., a use as a common word or family name) has to be attested.". This is, after all, a company name, in two senses ("group of individuals with a common purpose, as in a company of actors" and "business")  ;-) . I'm willing to change my mind if citations can be brought that fit the standard explained at Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion/Brand names, which I doubt.—msh210℠ 17:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I thought the "official" team name was "Oakland A's." (IMO, all team names are still spam, regardless.) --Connel MacKenzie 18:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

move to RfV DCDuring TALK 18:37, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Added sense as nickname for many teams whose full name includes "Athletics". US sports context. DCDuring TALK 15:41, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

QPR

As above (try to keep these all together.) --Connel MacKenzie 18:39, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Definite keep, for reasons listed at Spurs above. Also it is an abbreviation.--Dmol 21:59, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:English names of sports teams, now under construction. bd2412 T 00:55, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

The draft Appendix:English names of sports teams is now done and open for business. bd2412 T 14:50, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep Παρατηρητής

Middle-earth

Tolkien-cruft. --Keene 14:39, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

• 1994, Academic American Encyclopedia, Grolier, ISBN 0717220532, page 141

  Not only are there maps of fantasy, such as those of Oz or Middle Earth, there are also hypotheses that have been made on the basis of mapped information

• 1999, Frederick Turner, Shakespeare's Twenty-First Century Economics, The Morality of Love, Oxford University Press, ISBN 0195128613, page 180

  The place might as well be called Noplace; it is a sort of magic island, like Thomas More’s Utopia or Homer’s Ogygia or Aristophane’s Cloudcuckooland—or Oz, or Narnia, or Middle Earth, or Disney’s Magic Kingdom.

• 2002, Brian Bates (author), The Real Middle-Earth, Magic and Mystery in the Dark Ages, Sidgwick & Jackson, ISBN 0283073535, abstract

  Drawing on historical and archaeological research, Brian Bates uncovers the Middle-Earth that centres on England - a home to dragons, elves, dwarves and demons - a land where spells had real force.

• 2003, Erik Bethke, Game Development and Production, Wordware Publishing, ISBN 1556229518, page 76

  Some game ideas (such as the fanciful recreation of Middle Earth where the whole world is modeled with strong AI, 3D graphics capable of great indoor and terrain rendering, where an unlimited number of players can join in on both sides of epic conflict between good and evil) cannot be reconciled with the business parameters of two artists and a programmer...

• 2004, Sam Harris, The End of Faith, Religion, Terror, and the Future of Reason, W. W. Norton & Company, ISBN 0393035158, page 27

  This is not an account of the Middle Ages, nor is it a tale from Middle Earth. This is our world.

There also appears to be an attestable underground music venue called Middle Earth. DAVilla 21:48, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Middle Earth is a common expression in Paganism (nothing to do with Tolkein!)- see Brain Bates quote above - I will be adding references soon. Thorskegga 13:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I have done some work on this one - I have added two new definitions - one mythological - second from modern paganism, both of which appear to meet criteria for inclusion. I will dig out a couple more citations in due course. I would suggest the Tolkein sense is kept as it is supported by the other meanings of the word. Thorskegga 17:02, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep, as cited. bd2412 T 01:34, 10 June 2008 (UTC)

Montego Bay

Does this meet CFI? --Connel MacKenzie 21:03, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd suppose so. It's the fourth largest city of Jamaica with 120.000 inhabitants, and we do have a lot of cities.Hekaheka 21:29, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Appendicize. No sign of attributive use that I can see. Oh, how I wish I was in Sherbrooke now! -- Visviva 06:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Why not in Dover, Swansea, Salisbury (Wiltshire) or Trondheim? They are not more attributive than Montego Bay. The point is that we need a policy here, not deletion or appendisation of names of individual cities. Hekaheka 09:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

See Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2007-06/Placenames 2-A for a process that never got finished, I believe the aim was to start big and to narrow it down in a series of votes so that we could be sure where the line should be drawn - not an ideal approach (very bureaucratic and slow) but it would have got there in the end. I am keep on this and all placenames; until we have automatic redirects to 'pedia we need to provide them by hand (the "look this up in our sister projects" box is not good enough) Conrad.Irwin 02:01, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

I would vote Keep for any and all placenames. I highly disagree with a place name having to be used attributively. Some words, I agree, should be verified in use attributively; but place names obviously exist. If it can be verified as in use on maps, Wikipedia, etc., it should be kept. There is zero harm in including all place names. For some reason people fear large categories such as this; in a virtually limitless dictionary, I think we are the perfect place to have entries for any that come about. sewnmouthsecret 16:29, 24 April 2008 (UTC)

If it is the fourth largest city, why don't we have the three largest? Because this one is promotional? --Connel MacKenzie 21:52, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

We have currently 235 locations in "Towns" -category and 625 in "Cities" -category, which makes quite an arbitrary collection of localities. I don't think they should be discussed one at a time. There are at least three options: keep all, delete all or agree on criteria. --Hekaheka 16:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep - and add the others. Παρατηρητής

Portmore and Spanish Town added. --Hekaheka 16:53, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

February 2008

akennedness

Defined solely in terms of a redlink "The state or quality of being akenned." Akenned has 474 raw googles, but they seem to be proper nouns and email addresses. Akennedness has 5 raw googles (one of them us). RJFJR 18:06, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

uh, wait. Middle English dict. shows akenned. But that doesn't support akennedness. RJFJR 18:08, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

There seems to be OE: on cristes akenned-nysse daege from Aelfric's Lives of the Saints] DCDuring TALK 18:28, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

get sick

Edit: To become ill. Per [[get fill-in-the-blank]]. DAVilla 17:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

"To become ill" is almost idiomatic. Keep? --Connel MacKenzie 05:14, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This can also mean "to vomit." So can "be sick," of course, but I don't think "sick" by itself normally has this meaning. -- Visviva 15:06, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm okay with that definition. Changed to rfd-sense. DAVilla 07:07, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Wow it means "vomit"? Just in American English, right? Kappa 01:45, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think it's regional; I've heard it, and I'd understand it, but I'd never use it, and I don't think most Midwesterners would. (Of course, ~30–40% of the time I say on Wiktionary that a word/sense/construction doesn't exist in my region, it's less than a month or two before I hear someone use it in real life, so who knows?) —Ruakh_TALK 02:42, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

flatulence tax

Quite real and certainly verifiable, but seems sum of parts in the sense that the Iowa caucuses were, i.e. it has no meaning outside of one specific event. Most citations use quotes around the term anyway. Globish 23:07, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Encyclopedia material, looks like to me. — [ ric ] opiaterein — 14:40, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Not sum of parts; the definition is certainly not what I would have expected from flatulence + tax. But like Opiaterein, I cannot think of any particular merit in having an entry here. Weak neutral. -- Visviva 14:59, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Technically sum of parts, but still idiomatic in that e.g. it does not apply to individuals (like people who don't soak their beans long enough before cooking). DAVilla 07:02, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Spanish double l

Note: there exists a previously archived request that may be relevant to this one.

Bad entry title. --Connel MacKenzie 20:57, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

This was matked as kept in November. I repeat my arguments here:-
Books DO refer to this as the "Spanish double l". gbc shows a couple, but more usage can be found in a simple google search, which finds a lot of current usage. Also any Spanish language teaching aid in English will mention the "Spanish double l". There is no other way in English to talk about this letter, which comes after "L" and before "M" in the official Spanish alphabet. -- Algrif 17:29, 6 February 2008 (UTC)

If we are going to re-discuss this, I'll weigh in as weak delete or move to RFV: I think it's SoP (deprecated template usage) Spanish + (deprecated template usage) double l; it gets very few hits on b.g.c.; and your statement notwithstanding, I don't think 288 Web hits demonstrates "a lot of current usage". However, I'll also weigh in as weak wait a few more months before repeating a resolved discussion, unless we have a specific reason to re-evaluate the validity of that resolution. —Ruakh_TALK 00:48, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

It seems to have been marked 'keep' incorrectly - both when I renominated it and now reviewing that previous nomination. (Who added that previously lost link, anyhow?) The title is still bad, no matter what DAVilla decreed unilaterally, when considering it an encyclopedic topic, therefore worthy of inclusion in a dictionary. --Connel MacKenzie 22:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Double l is not the same as Spanish double l. The English spell travelling with a double l, unlike the Americans, who use a single l. This does NOT mean that the UK English pronunciation is eλe. This is, on the other hand, the pronunciation of the Spanish double l. -- Algrif 11:54, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep This is the English name for a specific letter of the Spanish alphabet. We have alpha, ess, long s, and Eszett. This follows the same pattern of being the name of a letter of an alphabet. This has already been discussed and kept. To re-open the discussion, we should have some new reason to do so, not the same reason as before. --EncycloPetey 04:19, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the reason is different this time. The entry title looks just fine to me, but Ruakh has brought up the question of idiomaticity. Certainly it's a descriptive name, which are sum of parts. It also happens to be the name of a single letter, rather than two, as in the English example EncycloPetey gave. That knowledge is not apparent from the name, so keep on those grounds. DAVilla 07:28, 9 February 2008 (UTC)\

Sorry, but that does not follow. The previous nomination was not because it had a bad entry title (but should have been, perhaps.) That subject was not discussed at all, before you mistakenly marked it as kept. --Connel MacKenzie 22:03, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Since I didn't vote clearly earlier, strong delete from this entry title (even if content is retained in an appendix somewhere.) --Connel MacKenzie 21:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

lapidate

Two identical senses?—msh210℠ 20:58, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

In my experience, stone is at least a specific subset of "to throw stones at" (at least within biblical references, the only place I've ever experienced the verb "stone"). I would switch "sometimes" to "generally." Past, that I'm happy with the entry as it stands (although it wouldn't be the end of the world if the two senses were merged, as they're obviously closely related). Atelaes 21:31, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

If stone only sometimes is to death (which is what you must say if you want to change "sometimes" to "generally", or, for that matter, if you want to keep the "sometimes"), then how does stone differ in meaning from throw stones at? To me they're completely synonymous, which is why I said these are identical senses. Is there some difference between them of which I'm unaware? (I.e., what "specific subset" is it?) (Note we have s.v. stone "to pelt with stones, esp. to kill by pelting with stones", which agrees with the entry lapidate and with my understanding.)—msh210℠ 21:41, 7 February 2008 (UTC)

If I had to pick one sense I would pick one that included the idea of stoning to death, partially because "lapidation" is topical in connection with the use of lapidation as punishment in some cultures currently. DCDuring TALK 21:35, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

anti-truth

Previously failed RFD and RFV. See Talk:anti-truth. --Connel MacKenzie 12:18, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Did both senses fail RfV and both RfD? Even the anti-truth quark is not actually likely to be attestable with 0 scholar and only 1 b.g.c. hit. truth quark seems to be a fairly common nickname for the top quark. And there is an "anti top quark", so it is arguably not mere vandalism, whatever the motivation. I will RfV anti-truth quark. DCDuring TALK 12:39, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

So, speedy delete (six months later.) Eh? It was nonsense then, still is now. Additional sense links to an already-red entry title. --Connel MacKenzie 22:09, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

intervene

2nd and 3rd redundant senses. (Perhaps more of an RFC than RFD.) --Connel MacKenzie 19:46, 8 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep the 2nd sense, which refers to the chronological meaning of "intervene" (as opposed to physical intervention). Not sure about the 3rd sense.--♠TBC♠ 03:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

barbariousness

defined as "The state or quality of being barbarious." but that is a misspelling of barbarous. — This unsigned comment was added by RJFJR (talk • contribs) at 17:34, 10 February 2008 (UTC).

Barbariousness gets 32 hits on b.g.c. If it were really strictly a misspelling, I'd say it didn't warrant a "common misspelling of" entry, but it's not quite; it's a misconstruction, perhaps combining (deprecated template usage) barbaric and (deprecated template usage) barbarous, and has a very distinct pronunciation. So, keep, but mark nonstandard. —Ruakh_TALK 22:15, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

military exercise

—Ruakh_TALK 22:09, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete as SoP. The definition is covered under one sense of (deprecated template usage) exercise, with (deprecated template usage) military clarifying what sort of exercise/training. --EncycloPetey 22:14, 10 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete as very obvious SoP. --Dmol 15:59, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Yes, delete. —Stephen 16:41, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

The translations of "military exercise" to other languages are not necassarily equal to translation of "military" + translation of "exercise", e.g German Militärmanöver and Finnish sotaharjoitus. I do not know whether we have an adequate solution to this. Of course one solution is simply not to care. Hekaheka 19:00, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

We usually don't consider that. After all, "This is my bag." doesn't translate word-for-word in all languages, but that doesn't mean the phrase deserves a dictionary entry. In the case of military exercise, it should be possible for someone to look up the individual words to determine the meaning. Presumably also, words like Militärmanöver should be listed as derived terms under Militär, so that a person can find such words. --EncycloPetey 19:24, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Del as SoP in the 1st sense and "encyclopedic" in the 2nd. (FWIW, i speak as the creator, a WP-admin who finds himself valuably educated by this discussion. And i thot only "unencyclopedic was a pejorative term!)

At the risk of going off-topic, tho, should i understand "PoV" re the second sense as a claim that the following assertion involves no question of fact, but merely a matter of opinion?

Journalists routinely write "military exercises", when they believe that in planning the events, any training value to be realized has been subordinated to ensuring effective saber-rattling.

Thanks.
--User:Jerzy·t 21:44, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete the second sense outright. DAVilla 04:35, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Well, that depends on whether you can find sufficient citations to demonstrate such use. Ideally, we want quality citations to back up all senses and definitions. In practice however, the most controversial get such quotations first, precisely because they are controversial. Commonly accepted senses may get only an example sentence to start with or may have no usage information at all, as a result of Wiktionary being understaffed. --EncycloPetey 21:50, 11 February 2008 (UTC)

This is my very first visit to this page. I am very disappointed.

First, I encourage participants here to avoid opaque jargon, like "SoP". Its use makes this page impenetrable for those of us who aren't insiders. It took me ten or fifteen minutes to figure out it meant "Sum of al parts".

Maybe I am missing something, but in this particular case I am mystified by the suggestion that "military exercise" is merely "military" + "exercise". I suggest that "military" + "exercise" is much more likely to bring up images of platoons of soldiers doing pushups, jumping jacks, or precision marching.

It seems to me that there is no kind of non-military exercise that is like a military exercise. Do we have "Fire Department Exercises"? Do we have "Boy Scout Exercises"? Do we have "Science Exercises"? "Day care exercises"?

Up here school boards have all their teachers take a day or two per year off from their regular duties for "professional development days". Kids call them "PD days", and love them because they get an extra day of vacation. We don't call them "Teacher exercises". No one would know what you meant if you called them "teacher exercises".

I spent some time looking at this page today. And I am going to offer my overall impression. Sorry, I see a general lack of deep reflection in the judgments placed on this page.

I have to wonder whether those who aren't willing to spell out "sum of all parts", who aren't willing to wikilink it to an explanation, so these discussions are meaningful to those who aren't in the club, are showing they have the patience to give these candidates for deletion the necessary serious deep thought.

Philosopher of Science Jacob Bronowski wrote that the word "Revolution" had no hint of over-turning the established order until Copernicus wrote "On the Revolutions of the Celestial Spheres". Words and phrases have meanings that seem obvious, but really have no tie to their literal meaning. There is no reason, other than Copernicus's work, for us to associate the word revolution with political, scientific or cultural upheaval. And similarly, I suggest, the combination of "military" + "exercise" has no obvious connection to soldiers setting aside their regular duties to engage in training -- other than traditional usage. I suggest this connection only seems obvious through familiarity.

If the wiktionary is going to be a serious project those weighing in on the possible deletion of words have to be able budget the time to think deeply about what they write, and they have to be prepared to think deeply before they write.

Cheers! Geo Swan 03:35, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughtful critique.

While it's true that "exercise" is not frequently used in this meaning, it is used in many similar constructions such as "anti-terrorism exercises," "security exercises," etc. It does not seem reasonable that we would have entries for all such terms. The restricted collocational range is probably best covered in a usage note at exercise.

Also, it's a small point, but it appears that Bronowski may be mistaken; at any rate it is claimed that the term "revolution" was in use in this sense a good 90 years before De revolutionibus appeared in print. But of course you can't believe everything you read online, and I'm not sure where to begin with verifying such a claim. Cheers, -- Visviva 06:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: the 1450 citation of revolution; it's listed in the OED under III. --EncycloPetey 17:18, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

There are a large number of mathematical texts that will say something like "Proof of this assertion is left as an exercise for the student." There is a widely understood meaning of exercise that entails practice rather than simply "physical exercise". And in regards to you argument by analogy with (deprecated template usage) revolution, you are arguing that the original meaning is the primary one, and the secondary meaning is only through association. Such as argument would actually argue against what you say about (deprecated template usage) exercise. You see, the original meaning of that word is "busywork, practice, training". It is only since about 1533 that exercise has been applied to specifically military maneouvers or physical practice to improve the body. And interestingly, those two new senses are grouped together in the original edition of the OED, from about 100 years ago. So, a distinction between the two senses you are discussing has only been made in the past century. --EncycloPetey 17:28, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Not the most obvious sense of exercise (despite the fact that soldiers do plenty of that kind as well). bd2412 T 21:22, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

The sense at least needs its own definition line at exercise. Keep per prime number. (What kind of prime? A prime number.) This is a common collocation, and it is the way that the sense is clarified. (What kind of exercise? A military exercise.) Sum-of-parts is not an exclusive rule. DAVilla 04:41, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

So, we're going to have mental exercise, teaching exercise, training exercise, mathematical exercise, physical exercise, lexicographical exercise, illustrative exercise, etc? All of these clarify the kind of exercise by adding a descriptor. The fact that the sense is clarified by the addition of a word does not argue for inclusion any more than it would for candy heart or apple cobbler. Consider: "The military will be conducting exercises today." and "The armed forces will be conducting exercises today." Both of these carry exactly the same sense as military exercise, but without the proximity found in the "collocation", and the second example doesn't even include the descriptor "military". This is not analogous to the case of (deprecated template usage) prime number, since removal of the portion (deprecated template usage) prime compromises the meaning, which is not the case with (deprecated template usage) military exercise. --EncycloPetey 05:38, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

There is nothing surprising about the definition of mental exercise and the others, but I think it's worth pointing out that military exercise implies large-scale manoeuvres and not just physical training, which would be expected from sum-of-parts. One could, I suppose, attempt to include this information in the exercise page. Kappa 00:30, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

The analogy to (deprecated template usage) prime number is that the removal of (deprecated template usage) number does not compromise the meaning. (As I said above: What kind of prime? A prime number.)

The sentences you give don't prove anything to me because context can always make the meaning clear. You don't always need a collocation, but that doesn't detract from the fact that it is.

I don't know about most of your examples, but (deprecated template usage) physical exercise would qualify since it exactly delineates definition 2. There may be another way to allow (deprecated template usage) mental exercise and (deprecated template usage) training exercise, which are collocations that to me are not summed mentally. I wonder if there's always a reason why.

This wouldn't be the best test to use though. At this point we'd have to bring into question how we delineate senses. For instance, Random House, AHD, probably others do not distinguish mental from physical. I think Kappa's take is a little stronger, though I take it as evidence to keep the page, and not just write it off as a note. DAVilla 00:04, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

My point is that for (deprecated template usage) prime number, the analogy is seriously flawed. The expectation is that (deprecated template usage) prime is a modifier of (deprecated template usage) number, but in fact the removal of the second component does not damage the meaning. For (deprecated template usage) military exercise to fit the analogy, you'd have to remove (deprecated template usage) exercise and preserve the meaning, which isn't the case. The order here matters, because in such a combination the first component is typically the modifier and the secoind the noun being modified. The term prime number breaks with this usual pattern in a way the military exercise just doesn't do. I'm sorry, but you've made a flawed analogy. --EncycloPetey 05:07, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

Ah, well now I understand that one, at least. I'm not sure what would be a perfect example. What about opposable thumb, presuming you would agree to keep that. Even the thumbs of raccoons are somewhat opposable, if not as much as our own. But anyways Visviva and BD already have a better angle on this. DAVilla 03:07, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Set phrase, idiomatic. --Connel MacKenzie 04:18, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

vector

rfd-sense: (psychology) "a recurring psychosocial issue that stimulates growth and development in the personality"

not in 2 psych dictionaries in this sense, incl APA 2006, contibutor cites one author in edit summary. DCDuring TALK 15:51, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

A section about Arthur Chickering from Professional Orientation to Counseling may shed some light on this use of the word "vector". It still sounds to me like an application of a generic term for a specific purpose that may not be widely recognized as a new connotation, but I'm not a psychologist (nor do I play one on TV). Interestingly, I hadn't read the edit summary of the addition of this sense before I checked, so the fact that my quick search yielded the same Chickering weakly reinforces the idea that this is a very uncommon connotation, maybe only in use by a single professional. Broader evidence is certainly called for. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 21:43, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

Microsoft

In the sense of the computing company. Delete per Nintendo. DAVilla 03:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Remove sense (to etymology) per nom. -- Visviva 06:13, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Agree, Move proper noun sense to the etymology. --EncycloPetey 17:06, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Third that. Conrad.Irwin 17:10, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

Move sense to ety. per above. DCDuring TALK 17:11, 16 February 2008 (UTC)

check it out

SoP - check out + it. Akin to fill it up, grind it down, let it go, bring it on (maybe not). --Keene 21:47, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

(Yeah, not the last one.) Agree, delete or redirect. DAVilla 04:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Delete. --EncycloPetey 05:19, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm pretty sure I've heard people use this with the sense "listen to this": "Hey, check it out, I'm coming to town next weekend!". If so, keep and fix. —Ruakh_TALK 13:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

A speech act fromula is a keeper, if that's the case. It was one of Pawley's tests, though it doesn't come up often. DAVilla 15:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep Street hawkers used this when handing out promotional cards for topless bars in NYC, for example, It would have been common use around here. DCDuring TALK 15:12, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Ruakh and DAVilla.—msh210℠ 17:29, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

This meaning is already in check out. It would have to be a strong case to convince me that check it out is anything special. -- Algrif 18:01, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Re: "This meaning is already in check out.": I don't think it is. I have difficulty making this case, because when I use "check it out" I'm really just using sense #46 at check out, but as I wrote above, I'm pretty sure I've heard examples like "Hey, check it out, I'm coming to town next weekend!", where I don't think sense #46 fits, because there's nothing for the audience to examine, inspect, or even espy. (I think I've encountered this kind of usage in Dinosaur Comics, if anyone feels a burning need to look into it.) —Ruakh_TALK 00:09, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

I've sorted the transitive and intransitive senses of check out. Hopefully this might assuage your concerns? -Atelaesλάλει ἐμοί 00:15, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, but I don't see how that changes anything, except the number in my comment. Am I missing something? —Ruakh_TALK 01:10, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Oh, no I think I missed something (i.e. the second half of your comment). My apologies. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:35, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Redirect to check out. Different minor variants of the same phrase get redirected to a single page. Atelaes 18:05, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep as a set phrase. Tell somebody "inspect it!" when you mean 'check it out' and see if they don't look at you funny :) — [ ric ] opiaterein — 18:30, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep as a set phrase, as per ric.--Dmol 21:32, 19 February 2008 (UTC)

I wonder if someone could find 3 quotations to show me that it's used idiomatically. Kappa 00:12, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

Started Citations:check it out. -- Visviva 12:09, 21 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep as set phrase. (When you look at something, how does that apply a check mark to it, anyhow?) --Connel MacKenzie 01:38, 20 February 2008 (UTC)

OK, then we should move it to check one out or check something out, because there is also "check this out", "check that out", "check these out", "check him out", "check her out", etc. This is not a set phrase, but a grammatical construction of a compound verb with a pronoun inserted between the components. This is a regular feature of English grammar, as with "throw it up", "knock it out", etc. --EncycloPetey 05:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

The less common forms (but still wildly common) could redirect to this entry if used the same way (i.e. check that out.) But check one out is a very distinct meaning from this, that would cover check them out, check him out and check her out. There is no reason not to have these few entries - they are unquestionably set phrases in these forms, in the English language. Perhaps they could have usage notes describing why they are considered incorrect or pointedly informal, if you think that would help. --Connel MacKenzie 22:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Not all of the citations seem to be simply check out + it; this does in fact appear to be in use as a speech act formula ("I hereby call attention to this"). -- Visviva 12:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)

I think I've heard (deprecated template usage) check this out used in a similar fashion, but not check that out or certainly him/her. Check her out means exactly (deprecated template usage) check out + (deprecated template usage) her, likewise him and that, but the others are calling attention to the speaker, as Visviva says. This I guess is a natural way to do that, so it's a little iffy, but it is more obvious. “Check it out. I'm going to the store, right? And this girl...” What is the it? DAVilla 01:23, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 18:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

prived

Probably spurious. def. given includes both deprived and spoiled. g.b.c. yields scannos and French language hits, but many of them. DCDuring TALK 23:58, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

Move to RFV.—msh210℠ 18:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

nickname

Teddy and Shorty are both nicknames. I see no reason to make a distinction. DAVilla 10:31, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

I think the distinction being made is actually between something like (deprecated template usage) Teddy or (deprecated template usage) Shorty, where it's genuinely used as an alternate name, and something like (deprecated template usage) the Body (for Jesse Ventura), where it's usually used with the name, or at least, you wouldn't typically expect a news article to use the term more than once. (“Teddy and Mike went to the store, and Teddy bought some vegetables” vs. “John and ‘the Body’ went to the store, and ‘the Body’ bought some vegetables”.) I guess there are two differences, really: one kind of nickname is fairly unmarked and usually used, while the other one is strongly marked and usually mentioned. Is this worth a separate sense line? I think so, but am not completely sure, since when we use the word (deprecated template usage) nickname, I think we're usually pretending that we're using sense #1, whether or not sense #1 would really be accurate. —Ruakh_TALK 12:39, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Sure, in formal contexts some may be more often mentioned, but not always just mentioned:

• 2006, Brian Shields, Main Event, WWE in the Raging 80s, Simon and Schuster, ISBN 1416532579, page 98

  Jessie Ventura had dreams of ruling the world of professional wrestling. After he fought one of the most violent feuds the Pacific Northwest territory ever saw with Jimmy Snuka, “The Body” returned home to Minnestota

Anyways, that's not really the distinction the definition makes. Not all such bynames describe a person by one of their characteristics. (Mankind?) DAVilla 18:27, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

O.K., but I'd like to see you find an example where the nickname is used repeatedly, as though it were the real name, without the real name appearing as well. You can't, firstly because it doesn't happen, and secondly because Google won't let you search for uses of “the Body” that are talking about Jesse Ventura but don't mention his name. :-P   For an easier-to-test example, consider “Show Me State”, where "show me state" missouri gets 234,000 hits, while "show me state" -missouri gets only 145,000 — of which fairly few are actually referring to Missouri — next to none if you ignore businesses named "Show Me State ____" and so on.

(I do agree about fixing the def, though.)

—Ruakh_TALK 00:45, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

Keep separate (with rewrite) per Ruakh and the lemming test; I'm inclined to give a slight benefit of the doubt to sense distinctions which have been approved by professional lexicographers. -- Visviva 13:53, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep. In onomastics there is a huge difference between a nickname used as a given name and a nickname used as a byname. The latter occasionally given rise to surnames, but the former do not. That is, there is a difference between "Shorty" and "Sparky" on the one hand and "Little John" and "Richard Lionheart" on the other. And you can see the difference in grammar as well: A nickname functioning as a given name will usually appear in isolation, whereas a nickname functioning as a byname will only appear along with a given name. --EncycloPetey 03:04, 5 March 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 18:43, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

everybody's

Do we want to actively delete these or leave them be if someone wants to create them? Conrad.Irwin 13:25, 27 February 2008 (UTC)

I want to actively delete them. (I might be more O.K. with them if they were more accurate, though. "Genitive singular form" is misleading on three counts: this isn't really a "genitive"; it's a "singular" only in that (deprecated template usage) everybody is a syntactically singular pronoun, which hardly seems relevant to (deprecated template usage) everybody's, since syntactically it doesn't have a number, and it's not like there's a genitive plural it needs to be distinguished from; and it's not really a "form". And our POS header, "noun", is flat-out wrong: (deprecated template usage) everybody is a pronoun, so there's no way (deprecated template usage) everybody's is a noun.) —Ruakh_TALK 02:17, 28 February 2008 (UTC)

There's a reason the vote was for noun plurals only - to keep entries like this. Move to RFC. Keep. --Connel MacKenzie 04:08, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know what vote you're referring to, but the vote I remember did forbid entries like this. It explicitly made exception for "the irregularly-formed possessive forms of pronouns", and there seems to have been general agreement that the personal pronoun (deprecated template usage) one's would probably be O.K., or at least was a special case to be considered independently; but I see no suggestion that the vote only cover nouns. —Ruakh_TALK 03:34, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Ruakh. The vote clearly only allows for irregular pronominal possessive forms, such as whose and its. While I don't know how I would have voted, had I been around for this vote, its mandate is fairly clear. Delete -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 03:57, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

To quote Ruakh: "(I'd actually prefer that there also be an exception for one's, which is the only personal pronoun that we use the apostrophe in, but whatever. This way is quite fine.)". The only one, eh? Really? Not that it is my place to protest deletion: this is not my mother tongue. However, Dutch does have: ieder - ieders (everybody - everybody's) and imho ieders deserves a lemma. What translation should I give [[everybody|everybody's]]?

Jcwf 04:18, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

We do not create English entries simply to provide a translation substrate. I would probably do everybody's. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 04:24, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe that when there is enough reason to we should, even for entries like father/mother's brother which could be linked in place of a translation of uncle in certain languages. It would not surprise me if several languages necessitated this for all possessives of pronouns. Therefore weak keep as a phrasebook entry. DAVilla 10:37, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The only one, yes. (In Standard English, at least. Certainly "it's" is a very common misspelling of "its".) I don't speak Dutch, but on the face of it, yes, [[everybody|everybody's]] looks like quite a reasonable translation, as does [[everybody]][['s]] [edit:] or, as Atelaes suggests, [[everybody]]'s. (From what I gather, the genitive in Dutch is mostly archaic except with pronouns like (deprecated template usage) ieder. If this is correct, then I agree with your opinion that (deprecated template usage) ieders deserves a full entry.) —Ruakh_TALK 04:26, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, genitives are mostly archaic and in fact less common than the English possessive. They are mostly limited to persons: Jan->Jans etc. Pronouns are a bit of an exception like wiens, wier, ieders, niemands, but then there is a whole bunch of adverbs that derive from genitives. I still don't understand your 'the only one' argument: i.e. I fail to see the difference between everybody's, one's, somebody's and anybody's.

Jcwf 04:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

March 2008

dog shit

I know someone is going to say how this means something other than dog + shit, or other languages translate this special or some other nonsense, but I couldn't live with myself if I didn't try and get this nonsense deleted. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 01:16, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Redirect. This is a bit of a toughie, because we have to include (deprecated template usage) dogshit, and since (deprecated template usage) dog shit is a bit more common, it seems odd to redirect from dog shit to dogshit. But, I don't see a better way. *shrug* —Ruakh_TALK 02:13, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Do we really? And equally the s*** of every imaginable animal? Why not mention under the entry "shit" that it can be combined with names of animals to produce a term meaning their particular produce? I have used this approach with some Finnish nouns. Hekaheka 11:30, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

We need entries for horseshit and bullshit anyway. There really aren't that many that form a single word (rat, worm, whale, bird come to mind). They are used in different contexts and sometimes have special nuances or usage. Otherwise we are just talking about the usual attirbutive use of the animal name with "shit". Many have special non-vulgar names like "pellets", etc. It would be amusing to get those in one list some day. DCDuring TALK 15:32, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Redirect per above. Seems like an excellent solution to the whole set of these. DCDuring TALK 15:34, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

Not sure, but what about doggy doo/doggie do/doggy do/doggie doo? AFAIK, the dog is the only animals whose faeces is referred to as "doo". Or does do/doo cover it?--Keene 15:39, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I think a redirect here would be harmful and misleading. While "dogshit" is almost always an adjective, "dog shit" is usually a noun. A the very worst, it could be reduced to a soft redirect, but that would just be forcing readers to to click-through (which usually results in people leaving, to try a different reference instead...i.e. not helpful.) --Connel MacKenzie 19:42, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

P.S. Keep as it is an idiomatic set phrase. --Connel MacKenzie 19:43, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

There are about 9 of these in English that I've identified: bat, bird, bull, chicken, dog, horse, rat, whale, worm. Not all form a single word with shit. Most can be found with and without hyphens, the usually but not always for some kind of adjectival use. We will not be buried in the subject matter. DCDuring TALK 21:26, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

You forgot apeshit. ;-) Dmcdevit·t 00:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe we need an entry for pigshit as well. bd2412 T 08:00, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep, I pronounce this as one entity, with stress on "dog" and none on "shit", whereas if I said "cat shit" I would stress both words. Kappa 00:29, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Can someone at least tell me what it means, idiomatically? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:30, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I would guess it's similar to bullshit or horseshit, but the problem is that there is no idiomatic sense defined at the actual article yet, despite the arguments here that one exists. I don't think people should say to keep something because a more valid meaning exists without even adding that meaning; then we end up with the less valid article kept in the end, and the problem isn't fixed. Dmcdevit·t 00:38, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

I took a crack at an entry for dogshit. We could probably keep attesting entries (which are readily available, of course) off the page. I don't think we need too many usage examples, either. If we just get serious about this group of words for a bit, we can probably handle it once and for all. Compared to the others dogshit seems to be just "common", but "worse" than human. rat-; horse-, bull-; whale-, worm-; chicken-; and bat- and, yes, ape- all have different meanings, divided into groups of related meanings by semi-colons on the list. I'm not sure about bird and snake, though snake might be like worm and whale. DCDuring TALK 02:10, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep as an alternative spelling of dogshit. Both may be idiomatic under the "in between" test and the latter per community support of (deprecated template usage) Dutchman. DAVilla 10:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

fable

One sense (in English) has been split incorrectly into four separate senses. --Connel MacKenzie 19:25, 3 March 2008 (UTC)

I know; the editors of Webster's Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913) really went too far with the whole "Webster's 1913 is not paper" thing. In their defense, though, they were probably prodded in part by their desire to desire to translate words helpfully into every language. Seriously, though, keep; it's probably worthwhile to distinguish between a literal fable, and three extended senses, especially since they give such different connotations. —Ruakh_TALK 01:45, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep MW3 retains 7 distinct senses in three groups. One of the things WT should NOT be is WTSimple. Grouping similar senses; displaying simply worded sense or glosses first; and hiding subsenses and subtleties all seem worthy of consideration, but deletion pushes us to be a very specific kind of dictionary, rather than a universal one. DCDuring TALK 02:21, 4 March 2008 (UTC)

The OED distinguishes 5 separate senses and a total of 10 sub-senses! Widsith 08:38, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

As written, senses 1 and 3 do seem redundant; isn't sense 3 precisely describing a made-up story told for amusement? Maybe the distinction made more sense 95 years ago, or maybe the inclusion of "amuse" in sense 1 was simply an error, or maybe there is some still-obvious distinction I am simply missing. Clue, please. Sense 2 does seem distinct, but I have to wonder whether this sense has ever actually been used by anyone besides Dryden. -- Visviva 05:02, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

The 4 meanings are quite clear to me.--Richardb 01:44, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

In the interests of WikiLove, parts of the preceding comment have been redacted. —Ruakh_TALK 02:03, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Not until we ban personal attacks from them. Let's discuss pages not people here, meta discussion and personal grievances to talk page please. - [The]DaveRoss 01:47, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

As I recall, last time you were here you were blocked for a single-minded campaign of attacks. If you're here just to do that again, I'd rather you just leave again. I think we as a community are probably quite impatient with it by now; I know I am. Dmcdevit·t

Bank of England

A proper noun encyclopedic concept with no attributive meanings (I believe). Dmcdevit·t 06:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep, to differentiate that is it the official government central bank, as opposed to Bank of Scotland or Bank of Ireland which are commercial entities. (I'm not too concerned about the building definition).--Dmol 09:16, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

What does that reason have to do with a dictionary? Explaining that it is an official government bank sounds like an encyclopedia's job. This nomination is identical to Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion#Armed_Forces_of_the_United_States (the official central government's armed forces). Dmcdevit·t 09:59, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

That is the very reason it should be there, to indicate that it is the government bank, and not just a SoP bank that happens to be in England which would be the most obvious (but incorrect) meaning.--Dmol 21:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

• Strong keep. I've added a citation. Have we got nothing better to do that try to remove perfectly good content? SemperBlotto 10:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• Delete per nom. This has no place here. -- Visviva 10:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

• This is not supposed to be a democracy. Don't we need reasons? There are numerous dictionaries that have numerous entries for proper nouns (e.g., MIT Dictionary of Modern Economics). If the nom is not certain that the headword does not have attributive meanings ("I believe"), then why isn't this at RfV? Do we apply different standards to economic and military institutions than we apply to other governmental bodies? (Aside: Do we also apply different standards for NGOs than we apply to commercial entities?) move to RfV per nom's expressed uncertainty as to attributive use. DCDuring TALK 11:19, 6 March 2008 (UTC)
  • This doesn't make sense to me. It doesn't matter whether I believe that it has an attributive sense or not. RfV is for verifying questionable senses. None of the given senses here are attributive or worthy of verification; they should be deleted regardless. I don't understand why you say "Don't we need reasons?" when I clearly have given one (and it's not just against proper nouns, by the way; one of the dictionaries I happen to like includes lots of valid proper nouns: this one). If there is an attributive sense add it, but you don't need RfV for that. Dmcdevit·t 11:34, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I thought the reason we have two processes (RfD and RfV) is that different criteria are in question. RfV is for attestation. RfD is for other. If an entry is going to be deleted on grounds other than attestation, then I will not waste an hour attesting it. The nom has stated that he is not sure that it is used attributively. I am sure that it is. I have not seen any argument (as opposed to assertion) as to why this entry does not meet CFI. The difference between this and the "Armed Forces of the United States" entry is that that phrase is not actually used except in the most formal of contexts (also like "Constitution of the United States"). "Bank of England" even has a nickname. Is the problem that the senses don't make it obvious that "Bank of England note" is an attributive use of "Bank of England"? If the attributive use of this can be attested, would the definition have to be rewriten or supplemented to meet CFI? DCDuring TALK 15:25, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand what is unclear. There are no attributive senses currently given on the page to attest, even if they do exist. All the current senses should be deleted. The RfD is not proposing deletion for some potential senses that no one has added yet. As such, this entry (rather than the one you are imagining could exist) fails CFI. You'll note that this nomination is nothing out of the ordinary, though you seem to be surprised by it. (Wiktionary:Requests for deletion#Microsoft) Dmcdevit·t 21:07, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure I agree with your reading of the CFI. Like you, I've always understood the CFI to say that we only include names that are used attributively; unlike you, I've never concluded that we only cover the attributive uses of such names. DCDuring is saying that the senses we already have can be found in attributive use. (Of course, the whole issue is complicated by the fact that "attributive" has two completely different senses, and the CFI happen to choose an example that overlaps so we can't tell what was meant.) —Ruakh_TALK 23:27, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

As usual, Ruakh has made a clearer statement than I seem to be capable of, but with which I am in total agreement. Please take a look at the citations which make clear that "Bank of England" is used by many distinguished authors to evoke (not denote) a great deal about England, "safety" (see below.) and permanence being among the attributes. Even the building is evocative for some. DCDuring TALK 01:06, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Another attributive use is "as safe as the Bank of England" which has book use that goes back 200 years.--Dmol 17:12, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Now that is a sensible argument for keeping. Keep, since we can say something useful about it, merge senses since the distinctions are dubious at best, and include specific reference to attributive/symbolic use. In general we need to have a more systematic approach to handling proper-nouns-used-in-symbolic-or-attributive-ways-which-nonetheless-have-only-an-encyclopedic-referent (or PNUISOAWWNHOAERs, as I like to call them). Personally I favor a single two-stroke definition, something like "The central bank of the United Kingdom, or the building housing its headquarters. Used in British English to symbolize security and stability," or words to that effect. -- Visviva 04:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Your so-called "PNUISOAWWNHOAER"s might inded merit some special acknowledgement in our documentation of how we treat proper nouns, including trademarks used similarly. If this is too hard for us, then we should probably leave such matters for some future Wiktionary projects that will focus on the areas in which WT is picky: proper names, trademarks, corporate entities, product names, fictional characters (Fiktionary?), military terms. — This unsigned comment was added by DCDuring (talk • contribs) at 14:05, 8 March 2008 (UTC).

keep Παρατηρητής

Delete.—msh210℠ 18:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Kept (already detagged, if it ever was tagged).—msh210℠ 18:45, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Al Jazeera

A proper noun encyclopedic concept with no attributive meanings (I believe). Dmcdevit·t 06:55, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Hundreds of book usages, and more than just another TV station. Frequently used to cite mid-East public opinion without US perspective. BTW, isn't it Al-Jazeera with a hyphen--Dmol 09:24, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep. In Arabic, it’s all one solid word. In the English transliteration, the official spelling is without a hyphen. —Stephen 23:48, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

Fine, then it probably deserves an entry in Arabic, but no English, unless some attributive sense can be elucidated. We don't make entries simply as translation substrate. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:57, 6 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not following this. Just because it's written as a single word doesn't make it any more worthy of inclusion than any other company name. -- Visviva 16:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

If SGB is to be believed, then keep for the special spelling compared to the English speling. If not, then abstain — This unsigned comment was added by Keene (talk • contribs) at 01:20, 7 March 2008 (UTC).

I totally assumed that was a bleached conditional until I got to the second sentence. Is there a reason to think maybe Stephen isn't to be believed? —Ruakh_TALK 01:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

What is a "bleached conditional"? --Connel MacKenzie 16:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

A bleached conditional is a construction that's structured as a conditional, but doesn't really have conditional force. (As in the "conditional" has been semantically bleached right out of it.) Usually this happens when the antecedent is presumed to be true, so it can't be "condition" in any real sense. One common use of bleached conditionals is in transition sentences; after a paragraph about how hard middle-school math was, for example, one might introduce a paragraph about high-school math with "If middle-school math was hard, high-school math was flat-out impossible." —Ruakh_TALK 01:00, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The term doesn't appear in Google's Book or Scholar search.—msh210℠ 17:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Oops. Thanks for pointing that out. I presumably got it from this, but it is apparently not a widespread expression. google books:"semantic bleaching", however, is; so if I stick to "semantically bleached conditional constructions", I should be fine, even if that exact phrase currently gets no hits anywhere. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 22:39, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep as the very-most common spelling used in English, currently. [1]. --Connel MacKenzie 16:23, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Why does that matter? Most company names are the most common spellings of the name of the company, almost by definition ... but that doesn't mean they should have entries here. -- Visviva 16:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

OK, Delete - I wasn't clear on it actually being a company name...I thought it primarily was used figuratively to refer to all Middle Eastern TV (e.g. comedy skits and such.) --Connel MacKenzie 04:08, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Abstain. --Connel MacKenzie 08:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete as the name of a company without any idiomatic, symbolic, attributive or otherwise lexicographically-interesting use shown. (I wouldn't be surprised if such use could be shown, given this network's increasingly iconic status worldwide; I have come to rely on AJ almost exclusively for nuanced international news coverage. However, my initial search of usage was not promising.) As noted by WT:CFI#Company names, being the name of a notable company does not itself guarantee inclusion. I am rather mystified by the "keep" votes above. -- Visviva 16:30, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete per Visviva. Please, can we have return to the wonderful days when people used to twist and reinterpret the CFI beyond all recognition, rather than simply ignoring them and making arguments that aren't based in any of our policies? —Ruakh_TALK 01:23, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Actually, that's not such a bad idea. CFI was meant to reflect what the general consensus of (what was at that time called RFD, now is) RFV !votes. But it never did, not even for a majority of the contributor's concerns. In many ways, we were better off without having any codified restrictions at all. Ironically, the codifying of the rules was meant to reduce objections to speedy deletes (by pinpointing specific rules,) reduce repetitive nominations and reduce bickering. Oddball cases like this term highlight the fact that perfectly codifying Wiktionary is a silly goal. If we've lost the ability to make exceptions when needed, then it is indeed a very sad day. --Connel MacKenzie 08:15, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

This isn't an oddball case; no arguments are being made here that wouldn't apply to the name of every moderately prominent world company. Deletion follows not only from the CFI but from simple common sense; I might as well have phrased my vote "'''Delete'''; encyclopedic." -- Visviva 09:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Al Jazeera gets almost 5,000,000 Google hits and is an extremely important name in international politics and news. It has specific translations into other languages, which includes its particular grammar in most of those languages. Besides being interested in how to write it in another language, people may also wish to know what it means and so on. Seems a little silly to delete such an important word in a well-written article. —Stephen 17:45, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Personally, I think it would be great if one of the Wikimedia projects gave the sort of information you describe. But as of right now, according to the criteria for inclusion that define the English Wiktionary, that project isn't us. —Ruakh_TALK 20:16, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Currently w:Al Jazeera is doing a roughly 6.5-times better job of providing translations than we are, as well as providing far more satisfactory in-depth information (in 34 languages!) than we ever will. Now, we could easily copy the interwikis and bring ourselves back to par translation-wise, but it wouldn't be long before Wikipedia was out in front again; it is highly unlikely that we will ever match the manpower of the several Wikipedias. I don't understand why we would want to invest effort in duplicating work that is already being done so well elsewhere. -- Visviva 09:39, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete and replace with {{only wikipedia}}. This is not dictionary material, however it may well be looked up by someone. Conrad.Irwin 12:31, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Of course, w:Al Jazeera and the interwikis don’t provide the same information that we do. For instance, they don’t give transliterations in non-Roman languages such as Chinese, or grammatical info such as gender and declension. The Wiktionary article isn’t simply a poor shadow of the Wikipedia article, it includes different information that is hard to obtain elsewhere. —Stephen 14:10, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

But those transliterations are just transliterations of transliterations (with the arguable exception of Chinese); it's difficult to see how that amounts to anything but noise. And frankly, someone who can't extract gender information from a quick Google search probably doesn't speak the target language well enough for our translations to be of much benefit. If there is some plausible criterion which Al Jazeera meets that millions of other corporate and brand names do not, then fine. But allowing an infinite number of proper noun entries scotches what is to me one of the most important attributes of Wiktionary -- our mandate is enormous, but fundamentally finite and achievable. -- Visviva 02:24, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

We don't list George W. Bush just because it gets numerous Google hits and requires translation into Chinese. And for good reason. Delete this (unless it's found to meet the CFI).—msh210℠ 17:06, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

And what good reason would that be? —Stephen 19:30, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

To quote WT:WIN: "Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia, a genealogy database, or an atlas; that is, it is not an in-depth collection of factual information, or of data about places and people" (emphasis removed). To put it another way, quoting the CFI, "Wiktionary articles are about words, not about people or places. Many places, and some people, are known by single word names that qualify for inclusion as given names or family names. The Wiktionary articles are about the words." And, futher along in the CFI, "A person or place name that is not used attributively (and that is not a word that otherwise should be included) should not be included" (emphasis removed). That's why we don't include George W. Bush. But you know all this already, Stephen; why are you asking?—msh210℠ 22:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I should note that my Bush argument was not meant to compare Bush to Al Jazeera as far as the CFI are concerned. It was meant merely to counter to argument "it's got lots of hits and needs translation and that's sufficient". Al Jazeera fails the CFI, but not for precisely the same reason as George W. Bush.—msh210℠ 22:22, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, good American English dictionaries such as the Random House do have many such names. For instance, under Washington, both George and Martha are mentioned. Also, the various kings of England named George (I, II, III, etc.). An encyclopedia article is fundamentally different from a dictionary article, and many terms may be found in both. An encyclopedia article gives statistical and factual information such as populations, histories, politics, belief systems, dates, and so on. A dictionary article is about pronunciation, spelling, capitalization, hyphenation, translations, transliterations, gender, plural forms and other grammatical forms, and so on. An encyclopedia will put George Washington spelt just like that, under G, whereas a dictionary will probably put him along with other notable Washingtons under Washington. In my profession (translation), we have to look up all sorts of words, not for encyclopedic information such as birthdates or populations, but to find out how a word or name is written in the target language, and often to find out the grammar and capitalization associated with the term in that language. The only time we should not have a term here in Wiktionary that has an article in Wikipedia is if there is nothing linguistic that we can add to the article. In the case of Al Jazeera, we have information that Wikipedia lacks, including links to the name in other languages where, if applicable, you can find out the gender and declension. —Stephen 15:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I think the main difference is that a paper dictionary is standalone, we have a very suitable companion which is a mere click away, and linked from the "missing" page. - [The]DaveRoss 00:59, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep for the translations, and anything else Wikipedia does not have. But reduce the definition part to a pointer to the Wikpedia entry.--Richardb 02:02, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Deleted.—msh210℠ 18:59, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

A well-written and useful article with several votes to keep, and a lot more relevant than many of the weird words and peculiar spellings that find room here. I’m not going waste my efforts to add any other English pages or do work on English pages that derive from foreign words or names. In the end the work will be for nothing and they’ll probably just be deleted anyway. —Stephen 19:50, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Dmol, Stephen G. Brown, Richardb, and Keene (the latter now permablocked) said "keep". Atelaes, Visviva, Ruakh, Conrad.Irwin, and myself said "delete". You're right: I was too hasty in deciding there was consensus to delete. I apologize, and have undeleted. There was no {{rfd}} tag, for some reason, and I'm adding one, and not striking this section as kept.—msh210℠ 16:16, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh, and Dmcdevit also said to delete.—msh210℠ 16:17, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep - Etymology is interesting, translations are useful. SemperBlotto 16:21, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete Wiktionary is not an encyclopedia, regardless of etymology or translations. --♠TBC♠ 04:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep please Παρατηρητής

Threadneedle Street

No non-SoP meaning. I can't find cites whic refer Threadneedle Street to the Bank of England.b.g.c's usually good with "no XYZ" quotes which elicit an idiomatic meaning, but not here--Keene 01:27, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

"The Old Lady of Threadneedle Street" is the title of a book on the Bank of England, if memory serves me well. DCDuring TALK 01:36, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

"(The) Old Lady of Threadneedle Street" may warrant an entry, but I don't think "Threadneedle Street" on its own does. Unless the financial press does it differently to the mainstream media, "Threadneedle Street" isn't used to mean the Bank of England in the way that "Downing Street" is used to refer to the British Government. Thryduulf 02:43, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Absent attributive use, delete per WT:CFI#Names of specific entities. -- Visviva 04:40, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Strong keep. Plenty of attributive use if you know where to look. ;-) -- Algrif 16:43, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Added sense in line with UK finance attributive use. Keep both senses. DCDuring TALK 16:56, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I've put in three reasonable quotes. But if you find any better ones ..... -- Algrif 17:28, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree the first and third quotes do show attributive use for this meaning. I'm not certain that the second cite is using "Threadneedle Street" to mean specifically the Bank of England, rather I read it as meaning "a city banking firm". I've not looked for other cites, but it is possible this is a different CFI-meeting attributive use. Thryduulf 20:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I think it was just convenient for the pun. I'll change it. -- Algrif 13:50, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep now that attributive use has been shown. Thryduulf 16:33, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

If there are no further objections, may I remove the rvd tag now? -- Algrif 12:33, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes - keep Παρατηρητής

Kept.—msh210℠ 18:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Birkenhead

--Connel MacKenzie 16:19, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Erm, why? The entry is 100% correct. Birkenhead is a proper noun that is the name of a town in Merseyside. Thryduulf 17:55, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Been there (on the Ferry Cross the Mersey) but Liverpool is better. Yes keep. SemperBlotto 17:59, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete per WT:CFI#Names of specific entities, lacking attributive use. -- Visviva 04:35, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep - it is a real place. Παρατηρητής

Submit to RFV per WT:CFI#Names of specific entities.—msh210℠ 18:49, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Teepol

--Connel MacKenzie 04:34, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

:Delete per WT:CFI#Company names and abundant precedent including #Microsoft above. -- Visviva 04:39, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete as spam.--Dmol 12:15, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep - it is used generically in the UK by mechanics etc as any detergent to rub into your hands to get rid of grease etc. SemperBlotto 12:19, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Changed to strong keep - over 700 google book hits, many from scientific journals. SemperBlotto 12:25, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Definitely remove company sense. Not being British I had never heard of this, but these and a smattering of Book/Scholar hits strongly indicate generic use to refer to certain detergent compounds. -- Visviva 12:31, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

After finally actually looking at the definition (!) I have rewritten it as a noun, and added a few citations. SemperBlotto 14:57, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

The 1987 quotation is mention-only. You seem to be saying this is in widespread use in the U.K., but it would still be nice to have quotations that demonstrate the term meets CFI. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 15:28, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

I can confirm that the term is (was?) used in the Netherlands. I know it from my undergraduate chemistry labs. Jcwf 16:07, 8 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep Παρατηρητής

router

Ancient vandalism [2] that went undetected (original sense's example still with that incorrect, redundant sense.) While there may be a desire to list the literal back-formation definition, it should be listed after the real definition, perhaps as a sub-sense (the back-formation meaning "dispatcher", I'm not convinced even exists, but that would be a question for RFV.) But even if attested, it would still be redundant (or "by extension" or whatever.) --Connel MacKenzie 00:42, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand. Firstly, the sense that you tagged (sense #1) was not the sense added in the diff you linked to (sense #4). Secondly, neither sense #1 nor sense #4 seems like it could plausibly be a backformation. Thirdly, sense #1 doesn't seem even remotely arguably redundant, while sense #4 is after whatever the "real" definition might be, in that it's the very last definition. All told, I'm really not sure what sense you're talking about and what you're trying to say about it. —Ruakh_TALK 00:53, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I am also confused, but note that sense 1 is attested back at least to 1927 in the field of logistics. However, inasmuch as the uses I have found refer to a job title rather than a simple description, they might need a separate sense. Senses 3 and 4 do seem likely to be redundant (defining the same thing in different ways). -- Visviva 03:03, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

I would rather say that senses 2 and 3 describe the same thing... where as sense 4, maybe similar but could be distinctly different...--BigBadBen 20:10, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

• Keep now attested RfD'd sense. Agnostic on other improvement potential. Start over if more cleanup, verification, deletion required. DCDuring TALK 23:14, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

router as power tool

Made a new section to keep original discussion clear. -- Algrif 11:21, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

While we're about it...Isn't the power tool definition a different etymology and pronunciation? -- Algrif 16:26, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't know about the etymology, but in UK the power tool is pronounced and the other uses . I believe in the US the pronunciation is used for all senses. Thryduulf 16:56, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

Power tool router is from the verb to rout (which needs some work, btw), while the other senses are from the verb to route. -- Algrif 23:49, 11 March 2008 (UTC)

• I hope you don't think I've jumped the gun, but I've separated the power tool out to a separate etymology. -- Algrif 13:40, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

basketball player

Sum of parts. Thryduulf 01:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes and no. Some sports in English are played by persons ending in -er, such as a footballer. Others are compounds using (deprecated template usage) player. I think (IIRC) that (deprecated template usage) tennis player was used once as a test case for this and we voted to keep. The resoning was that (deprecated template usage) tennis player refers specifically to a person who plays the sport professionally, and not simply for recreation, so the word was not sum of parts. ---EncycloPetey 01:35, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Yep, that's right; see Wiktionary:Requests_for_deletion/Archives/2006/06#tennis_player. -- Visviva 08:43, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete A basketball player is a player of basketball. It is the sum of parts. Kevin Rector 06:56, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep - some people do say 'basketballer'. bd2412 T 06:59, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Then create an entry for basketballer. The fact that some people say basketballer has no bearing on the fact that "basketball player" is a SOP. Kevin Rector 07:26, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Created, but the point is that there are multiple terms which describe this one thing, so it may not be intuitive for some that this means the same as that (or that this is the more formal way of saying it, while the other is essentially colloquial). bd2412 T 17:44, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

True. In the UK, the term (deprecated template usage) footballer is common, but typically refers to someone who plays soccer/football. In the US, the term (deprecated template usage) football player is used almost exclusively, and refers to someone one plays American football. There are regional differences in how and where these diferent versions of terms are used. --EncycloPetey 19:49, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about this. WordNet defines it as "an athlete who plays basketball," i.e. not just anyone who plays basketball. And I think that's accurate; when someone asks "are you a basketball player?" they mean something different from "do you play basketball?" Google Books results for "a basketball player" also seem to lean very heavily toward the athlete/professional sense, for example:

• He thought, "I can't be sure, but I think there is a far greater chance this guy is a basketball player than a bank president." [3]

Now, I'm not entirely thrilled with this, since the same reasoning surely applies to every compound of [prominent sport] + "player". But nonetheless I think we should keep this and similar entries, since a plausible case for idiomaticity can be made. -- Visviva 08:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

The argument Visviva cites applies also to toast eater. "Are you a toast eater?" is different from "Do you eat toast?" in precisely the same way "Are you a basketball player?" is different from "Do you play basketball?". Delete.—msh210℠ 16:03, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

No, it doesn't because there is no such thing as a professional toast eater. The point is that "X player" where X is a sport implies a professional level. This is not true for "X eater". --EncycloPetey 16:40, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Being professional has nothing to do with it. A college basketball player would answer "yes" to "Are you a basketball player?" even though he's not professional. The difference between "Are you a basketball player?" and "Do you play basketball?" is one of frequency and devotion, which is also the difference between "Are you a toast eater?" and "Do you eat toast?".—msh210℠ 17:24, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I did see a number of b.g.c. hits for high school, college, etc. basketball players, but what was interestingly lacking were any cites that seemed to refer to people who just happened to be playing basketball as "basketball players." Of course, such cites can probably be found, but certainly the overwhelmingly common meaning is more specific. Being a basketball player seems to involve, at a minimum, some level of institutional recognition -- a formal team, a league. If we had organized toast-eating leagues, I think I would expect a similar shift in meaning to take place for "toast eater." -- Visviva 14:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

So you're agreeing with me. (You didn't know that, did you?  :-) ) You're saying that, in an English-speaking land where there is such a thing as a toast eater, "Are you a toast eater" is to "Do you eat toast" as "Are you a basketball player" is to "Do you play basketball". (We just happen to have no toast eaters. But the concept exists: I could write a fictional work on toast eaters.) So "basketball player" and "toast eater" are equally idiomatic. (The only difference between them as far as Wiktionary inclusion goes is attestability.) Where we differ is in whether that degree of idiomaticity is sufficient for inclusion.—msh210℠ 19:03, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, not exactly. I'm saying that, in a country where toast-eating is an organized and sometimes-professional activity, "toast eater" might become idiomatic. But it wouldn't automatically be so, particularly if professional toast eaters were always referred to by some other term. IMO this is not simple encyclopedic entailment. That is, as I see it, in contemporary English "basketball player" actually means "an athlete who plays basketball as part of a recognized organization." This is not an inference made by the hearer, but is actually part of the meaning of the phrase. That is why it is very seldom used in the more obvious someone-playing-basketball sense, even when that sense would be clear in context. -- Visviva 01:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure. Certainly "basketball player" normally indicates someone who plays in some kind of organization, but I think that's true of nearly all terms that can designate professions; the word "programmer" normally designates someone who does it for a living, and the word "writer" normally designates someone whose writing actually gets published, and so on. But I don't think I'd miss a beat at hearing "weekend basketball player" or "casual basketball player" or "informal basketball player" or the like; if it's idiomatic, it's very weekly so. —Ruakh_TALK 03:04, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, sure, even the most idiomatic phrases will still coexist with their literal meanings. But I found it instructive to compare this with "chess player." There are professional chess players (though they don't get much press), and national chess leagues are at least as well-developed as those for most sports. Nonetheless, "chess player" in common usage just means someone who plays chess. "Basketball player" and "chess player" occur in roughly a 3:1 ratio on a Google web search, but hits for "becoming a basketball player" outnumber "becoming a chess player" by more than 2000:1. The voice of the web, IMO, is clear: a basketball player is something you can become, while a chess player is just something you are by virtue of playing chess. -- Visviva 09:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

O.K., I'm convinced. Keep. —Ruakh_TALK 12:28, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Okay, me, too. Keep.—msh210℠ 16:25, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

If someone is devoted to playing basketball after work every day and on weekends, that will not make him a basketball player. Frequency and devotion doesn't enter into it. The difference is being part of an established organization. --EncycloPetey 18:07, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

I may be wrong, but I find it difficult to envision someone saying to him- or herself: "I can't be sure, but I think there is a far greater chance this guy is a toast eater than a bank president." I think athlete is a good choice of words to define what is distinct about this kind of "player." -- Visviva 14:39, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Putting aside that the person in question does not have to be a professional, I think that any entry that answers the question What do you do? is a valid entry, even though it might look like SoP. I'm a secret policeman is as valid as I'm a policeman. I'm a bank manager is as valid as I'm a manager. And so should all have entries. The fact that they define something in particular makes them fried eggs, or possibly Egyptian pyramids. IMHO. -- Algrif 16:35, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sold on this argument in general, but I would defend both of the examples you give -- a "secret policeman" is very different from a policeman who is secret (a plainclothes or undercover cop, for instance). Likewise, a bank branch may contain numerous people in managerial roles but only one would be considered the "bank manager." I agree that occupational titles tend to be idiomatic, but they aren't always automatically so. "Vice president for creative affairs" and "assistant supervisor," for example, would IMO not qualify for their own entries. -- Visviva 09:53, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like an okay argument to me, and explains why we kept tennis player a long while back. DAVilla 17:48, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 18:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

birthday party

Unlike birthday present (see WT:TR#birthday present), this seems to be SOP in both English and all the languages for which translations have been entered. If so then its value as a phrasebook entry would seem limited. Thryduulf 16:57, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Um, distinguishes from a political party? Keep. Harmless. bd2412 T 23:33, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete; just as "Halloween party", "Christmas party", "keg party", etc. The context of which definition of (deprecated template usage) party is intended is clear from the pairing with (deprecated template usage) birthday. --EncycloPetey 14:50, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete just have party

Do we have any statistics on passive pageviews by anons? There really ought to be some reflection of the interest of our users in an entry in the RfD process. There may be some common collocations (that also form phrases, probably noun phrases) that should be in here for users. Or is this only for smart, alert useers? I suspect that this would be oft-visited. Based on that suspicion, 1,390,000 raw web hits, 235,000 raw news hits, 1900 b.g.c. hits, and 353,000 groups hits: keep. DCDuring TALK 11:00, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

How many hits would you get for the Bible? Does that mean we should have an entry for the Bible? No. We don't use number of hits for a juxtaposition of words to justify it as an entry. Most such common juxtapositions are the result of regular English grammar. --EncycloPetey 18:35, 28 March 2008 (UTC)

Keg party seems okay to me, also wedding party, but this one I have a hard time justifying. It's the principal meaning of party, and it's not really used figuratively, so rather than deconstructing a sum-of-parts collocation the only reason to keep it would be to discover it if construction were not straightforward. But as to that, it apparently makes a poor phrasebook entry as well. DAVilla 05:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Fairly harmless, but delete if you want. Παρατηρητής

bought the farm

I don't see where this necessitates an entry defining it independently of buy the farm, and we don't usually put up separate inflections for idioms, AFAIK. Circeus 23:13, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I know this is primarily a US idiom, and I'm British, but the only form I've heard is "bought the farm" - even the example sentence at buy the farm uses it the form "bought the farm". So if any form is to go I don't think it should be this. Thryduulf 23:42, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

I would normally prefer that we have an infinitive form be the lemma for an idiom, even if most usage is in non-lemma forms. However, I don't think that such a preference should override the facts. As far as I can see from inspecting all of the b.g.c. hits for "buy the farm" and "insurance" and a hundred of so of the several hundred hits for "buy the farm", the expression just doesn't seem to be used in the present or infinitive form. I'm going to put an RfV tag on the putative lemma buy the farm. I would hope that we would Keep this pending the outcome of that RfV. DCDuring TALK 04:16, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I thought the general way of recent decisions was to keep the lemma form (because that is how a dictionary functions), even though rare and difficult to cite, and to keep the most important inflection, because that is what most (but not all) people will actually enter when searching. -- Algrif 10:36, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

I agree with Thryduulf above - I have only heard the term bought the farm used in the UK - keep. Thorskegga 14:36, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

The lemma form, buy the farm, has been cited. Why don't we merge any good substance of this entry into that form and keep this with a gloss-type definition as {{past of}} and one or more citations or usage examples. I doubt that we need the other forms "buys ..." and "buying ...". That way only a user who wants, say, the etymology or translations would have to click twice. We actually don't have any rule against show inflected forms of phrasal verbs and idioms. It has just been a practice to avoid redlinks in the lemma entry and an excessive number of low-content inflected form entries. What Algrif recommends seems like our best practice for this kind of thing. It would be nice if the templates facilitated keeping only one or two of the inflected forms instead of all three. I would hate to have to type in the rare forms (excluding wikilink brackets) by hand and then type in "rare" and I would hate to mislead users into thinking that these forms shouldn't be used. DCDuring TALK 15:21, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Since bought the farm is idiomatically the most common, keep and define both. Thisis0 22:48, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 18:56, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Arian heresy

[ Arian Heresy ]

An encyclopedic concept; this is what Wikipedia is for. Dmcdevit·t 05:55, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. Arian and heresy should certainly have words, but the combination is encyclopedic material. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

But wait! It's an Egyptian pyramid! Delete, even though it sort of is one: encyclopedic, compositional, and generally useless for dictionary purposes. -- Visviva 09:59, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

At least a search for "Arian Heresy" will find "Arian", "arian", "arianism", and "heresy". (Analog would be true for Egyptian pyramid.) DCDuring TALK 15:12, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep, on the basis of Egyptian pyramid. There is no way to know what this means from the simple assembly of parts. It is a particular ideology, and refers to a specific set of beliefs, like gnosticism or Zoroastrianism, albeit a bit more specific and esoteric. --EncycloPetey 14:44, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

If you know that Arian is an adjective formed from w:Arius, then you know something about it. The details would be findable in an encyclopedia, most assuredly under Arianism. DCDuring TALK 15:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

This term is a pejorative for Arianism, a neutral term. Are we, in some way, enshrining the POV of Catholicism? Should that, together with the ease of finding all the associated entries via search, influence our application of the rules? The pairing of evaluative words with the labels of beliefs seems to exemplify SoP. This is a good case for considering what I feel is an issue because the controversy is not heated in the eyes of very many observers (although on WP "Arian heresy" redirects to "Arian controversy"). It seems to me like "American Imperialism" or "Soviet Imperialism". DCDuring TALK 15:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Including the name, if it is otherwise worthy of inclusion, is not a breach of neutrality; it's what we're here for. But Category:Heresies should probably go. -- Visviva 15:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

How does this differ from "Soviet Imperialism" or Soviet imperialism? DCDuring TALK 15:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Primarily in that, as far as I can tell, "Soviet imperialism" really is just Soviet + imperialism. It doesn't mean Sovietism as such, but rather imperialism of the Soviet Union. On the other hand, "Arian heresy" or rather "the Arian heresy" seems to have the specific referents "Arianism" and "body of the church supporting Arianism." It does not automatically mean "a heresy which is Arian," as one might suppose; this is borne out by the overwhelming use of the definite article. -- Visviva 02:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

This one has been bothering me. Put me down for a reluctant keep, inasmuch as the specific definition (Arianism) is not particularly clear from the sum of the parts (unless you already know what Arianism is, in which case you probably won't be looking it up). It definitely does need to be moved to Arian heresy; hardly anyone capitalizes the "H." There also seem to be two senses, the Arianism one and another which turns up in phrases like "bishop of the Arian heresy" ([4]), in which case I guess it refers specifically to the ecclesiastical faction supporting Arianism. Interestingly Arianism itself is never used in this way. -- Visviva 15:28, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I never expect a monolingual dictionary entry to enable me to understand something like Arianism. At most I expect it to confirm spelling, provide synonyms (if any), and provide some context (time period, geography, field of study or endeavor) for where I could find more. It is very hard to say what the substance (no pun intended) of the controversy was in a dictionary entry. DCDuring TALK 15:48, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Well, sure, but we're not trying to enable people to understand Arianism, just to enable them to understand that this is a non-obvious synonym for Arianism. -- Visviva 02:02, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Cf. Cartesian plane, abelian group.—msh210℠ 16:21, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep if it's a collocation. To sum from parts would require knowing more than the definitions of each word. DAVilla 07:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

accountable mail

Is this sum of parts? If it isn't, does it need a {{US}} context tag? Thryduulf 00:38, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it's SoP. After all, it is not really the mail that is being held accountable and the precise nature of the accountability is not obvious from the words alone. I could find a few mentions of it for Pakistan (3), Iran (1), and Canada (1). I expect it is a term used by some but not all postal systems and their customers when they are speaking/writing English. The US tag wouldn't hurt. DCDuring TALK 01:10, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

account book

"account book" = "A book in which accounts are kept." is sum of parts in my book. Thryduulf 00:49, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

There might be a lot to clean up of this type. "Phrase", "address", "telephone", "picture", "comic", "absey", "phone", "copy", "hymn", "prayer", "text", "school", and "blank" are examples of words that form phrases with "book", most or all of which are already entries. Is "account book" unique or should some or all of them go? DCDuring TALK 01:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

of the ones you list, I'd say address book, textbook/text book, and phone book deserve entries for idomaticy. "address book" can be a physical book of addresses, but it also used on mobile phones and email programs etc, where it is not a physical book. A textbook is more than a book of text, it has a specific meaning in terms of being a study guide/reference work/etc; similarly school book is not a book of schools or a book about schools. a phone book is not a book of phones, but a book of phone numbers; also on mobile phones it isn't actually a book. copy book I'm not certain about as it isn't necessarily a book of copies; also there is the idiom "blot one's copy book". If telephone book is or was actually used then it deserves an entry for the same reasons as phone book. Phrase book I could go either way on to be honest, as it is a book of phrases but it is usually a book of foreign phrases and their translations. None of picture book, comic book, hym book, prayer book, blank book should be here imho as they are books of or about pictures, comics, hymns, prayers and blank(s).

In other words, I think we need to discuss each one on its individual merits. Thryduulf 01:56, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Comic book should be (has been, I think) kept because the usage note about humor makes it more than a sum of parts. I've never heard of blank book, but because you mention it as a compound term I would imagine it has a different intonation pattern that would justify keeping it (whereas I would otherwise have just read it with stress on book). The others may have arguments of their own, so yeah, each on its merits. DAVilla 07:03, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't think this is sum-of-parts. For one thing, in contemporary English this sense of account is quite rare. Someone not familiar with this term would, I think, expect it to refer to something more like a passbook (i.e. the record of a bank account or accounts). For another, unless I'm mistaken this doesn't refer to just any sort of accounting record, but specifically to a ledger. A narrative record of income and expenditure, however detailed and exact, would not qualify as an account book. -- Visviva 04:34, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Looking at other dictionaries that have this entry, the general description seems to be more or less The book or books where the accounts of a company are kept. The interesting thing here is that it seems to identify 1) specifically to do with commercial activity, and 2) to deal with the accounts (note the "s") while the book or books (note the possible plural) is called an account (no "s") book. Hardly SoP under these conditions. -- Algrif 17:15, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

It's a fairly general property of English nouns that in attributive use, they're not usually marked for number. (This is especially of true of regularly declining nouns.) However, this term might be a set phrase, in which case I think it might warrant inclusion even if it's fairly SOP. —Ruakh_TALK 19:26, 15 March 2008 (UTC)

Except that (our actual entry apart. Work needing to be done.) the accounts is a plurale tantum. The company accounts is never singular....except, in this case of account book being a book, or books containing the accounts (plurale tantum). So if it were actual attributive use of the noun, it would be accounts book, just like sports shoes. -- Algrif 11:16, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

No, even with pluralia tantum this happens: consider "sport shoe", "scissor kick", "pant leg", and so on. Granted, in each case the plural-marked form exists as well (perhaps a regional or dialectic difference?); but then, so does "accounts book". —Ruakh_TALK 21:17, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Tag with {{finance}} perhaps (but it seems much more general than that.) --Connel MacKenzie 23:02, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

• Keep, still doesn't seem like sum of parts to me. -- Visviva 17:48, 25 April 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, set phrase in small-business accounting context, pre-computer writings, and beyond. DCDuring TALK 18:05, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 18:58, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

ring

A bunch of interspersed redundant senses. --22:59, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm presuming that you are wanting to merge the following noun senses:

• "A round piece of metal put around a bird's leg used for identification and studies of migration." (3) with "A circumscribing object (looking like an annual ring, earring, finger ring, etc.)" (1).
• "A circular arena where circus acts take place, a circus ring." (5) with "A place where some sports take place; as, a boxing ring." (4)

If so, I can see what you mean about 4 and 5, although the definition of 4 would need to be modified slightly to note that it isn't just sports that take place in that sort of ring.

I disagree that the specific bird ring sense is redundant to the general circumscribing object one though. A ring around a birds leg is used to uniquely identify that bird for various reasons, this is not true of any other sort of ring that I can think of.

Regarding the verb senses, I disagree that any of them can be merged. Thryduulf 23:11, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't see the verb senses being combined in any way. But both should be expanded a bit.--Dmol 23:53, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that deleting senses usually laughable for us in a common polysemic word like this. For ety 1, MW3 has 28 senses for the noun + 14 subsenses, 10 + 2 for the verb. For ety 2, noun 6 + 2, 14 + 4 for the verb; for a grand total of 80 senses. It seems as if we should figure out how to make sure we have all the main senses covered and context-labelled, and grouped and sequenced so they provide mutual support. DCDuring TALK 00:29, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

A boxing ring is not always circular; to quote w:Boxing ring, "A boxing ring is the space in which a boxing match occurs. A modern ring, which is set on a raised platform, is square with a post at each corner to which four parallel rows of ropes are attached with a turnbuckle." On the other hand I believe that circus rings are generally circular, or at least round, in shape. -- Visviva 06:34, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Bird rings are not always round pieces of metal. Their main purpose is to identify, not to be round. -- Algrif 16:05, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't they always sit around something, though?—msh210℠ 18:39, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

They usually do, but they can come off and are still rings. I presume (but don't know) that before they are applied to a bird they are neither ring-shaped nor enclosing anything. Although it is possible they have a different name before they're applied, my guess is that this is not the case. Thryduulf 19:15, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I believe the bird sense is also specifically UK, as indicated by the Wikipedia article. At least, in the US I have always heard these referred to as "bands." -- Visviva 04:05, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

That's evidence enough for me for a UK tag. Thryduulf 13:13, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

soviet

Adjective sense: "pertaining to a soviet." Seems like just attributive use of the noun? -- Visviva 01:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I have provided 3 citations of the comparative use of soviet, some capitalized. They support a different sense. If there is enough evidence for a different sense of the uncapitalized form that truly forms a comparative, then it might be kind to users to keep the attributive sense, both for the distinction and for a kind of etymology. DCDuring TALK 14:18, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I have provided 4 quotations with adjectival use that does not seen like attributive use of the uncapitalized form and moved the cites of the capitalized form to Soviet. I think they make a case for keeping the RfD's sense and for some other sense(s). I have added one, but it doesn't reflect all usage. It is tedious to cite because Google's basic search doesn't separate cap from non-cap forms and there are vastly more uses of the capitalized form, used as a noun, used atributively in the same sense as the noun, and used in adjectival senses more distantly derived from the noun or from "Soviet-style". DCDuring TALK 14:59, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. To me, the citations you added seem like an alternative capitalization of Soviet (and as such worthy of retention). But I would still argue that the tagged sense be deleted, inasmuch as it is not an adjective. If this is noted, and it probably should be, it should be as a usage note under the noun. -- Visviva 00:36, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

I don't have very strong feelings on the point. My thinking is that, if we have one sense that merits entry (meets CFI), then we may serve our users best by including senses that would not otherwise meet CFI but might confuse the user. If the sense that meets CFI is only an alternative spelling, I don't know. But I have been thinking that we need to include gloss-like entries where possible for links that are targets of alt sp, past of, pre part, etc., unless doing so would be misleading or excessively lengthy. Save'em the clicks, I say. DCDuring TALK 01:50, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree in principle -- that information should be available on the page -- but think we need to be fairly strict about what actually qualifies as a distinct sense. -- Visviva 01:42, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

We don't yet have enough citations, either. I'll have to try something besides b.g.c. It may just be an alternative spelling, I'm not really sure that it is all that common, although I limited my search to use in comparatives or adverbially modified without quotation marks. DCDuring TALK 03:49, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

• Delete rfd'd sense. No evidence of use except as attributive use of noun. DCDuring TALK 18:12, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

recognized components

This was added by a bot from an article somewhere (not Wikipedia). Is it any more than a sum of parts? Dbfirs

It was probably created from the singular. That singular was deleted by SB, leaving this orphan. Would you like to put the singular form through RfD on these grounds? It lookls like it is some vocabulary used in the UL process for electrical devices. DCDuring TALK 20:49, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Searching on '"recognized component" UL' gets 75 raw b.g.c. hits. It certainly isn't SoP because it relates to a specific important approval process which is probably essential to allowing goods to become salable in the US. I don't much care about the plural, but the singular should be a keep, or rather a restore and rfc. DCDuring TALK 20:56, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I suppose the "recognized by the US Government" sense might be worth recording (just) - but isn't this officially Recognized Component Mark? Dbfirs 22:31, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

UL is a not-for-profit funded by the insurance industry. It seems to be used commonly more or less as entered. There mere fact that there is an official definition doesn't necessarily mean that much, unless actually usage "wants" to conform to that definition. People don't spend a lot of time making sure that trade-mark and service-mark appear every place the mark holder would like them to, nor are we obligated to uphold their trademark. In any event, I will restore the singular and edit it into shape for our consideration. DCDuring TALK 23:58, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

recognized component

I have restored this entry. Please take a look and make a decision about tagging it "RfD", "RfV" or whatnot. DCDuring TALK 00:12, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

frell

From Farscape.--Jyril 18:22, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, I'm not seeing any independent use. Delete. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:33, 20 March 2008 (UTC)

Move to Appendix:Farscape per WT:CFI#Fictional universes. This term has worked its way into a corpus of fan fiction. --EncycloPetey 14:54, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete - not a word in the real world. Παρατηρητής

Subject to a RFV per WT:CFI#Fictional universes.—msh210℠ 19:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Deleted per consensus.—msh210℠ 19:01, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

bridal wear

bridal (sense 1 "of or pertaining to a bride") + wear (noun sense 1 "clothing") = bridal wear ("clothing worn by a bride") = sum of parts. Thryduulf 21:12, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. Bridal wear can also mean lingerie but this is different from the intended meaning. Maybe needs another definition. Search google images for a few examples. (Purely for research purposes, of course).--Dmol 22:19, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

PS, There are also regional and cultural differences in what the term means, even within the same country. We might think of bridal wear as white flowing silk, but to someone else it is bright coloured saris or a kimino.--Dmol 09:08, 22 March 2008 (UTC)

It could also be the erosion that happens as a result of wedding day stress ;) --EncycloPetey 14:58, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

But that definition of (deprecated template usage) wear says "in combination". Why isn't it bridalwear? DAVilla 05:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I think that most sum of parts combinations can be melded in a few ways: x y, x-y, xy. This does not overcome the SOP issue. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:44, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

If this is to go, then wedding cake, wedding dress and wedding ring are also in danger zone? Hekaheka 09:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

bowdacious

This is hardly a common spelling of bodacious - almost all the first 2 pages of web hits are mentions (including Wikionary), of those that are uses only a fraction appear independent of the first one. 21 books hits, the ones I can see are roughly 50% mentions. A Google groups search returns a whopping 6 results, only 4 of which are independent and one of the others might be a use. Compare this to 230,000 groups results for "bodacious". Thryduulf 16:34, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Could you remind of the difference between an alternate form and a misspelling? Or eye dialect and misspelling? I thought I knew based on prior experience with other entries here, but I'm losing confidence. This isn't eye-dialect because eye dialect would be "phonetic" throughout ("bowdayshus")? It's not an alternate form because .... ? DCDuring TALK 15:30, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

King James Version

—Ruakh_TALK 19:38, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Of all the numerous versions, this is by far the most influential in the English language. The phrase is used to signal a specific "old-time religion", Protestant, English. I don't think that any of the other versions have much meaning beyond their direct referent outside of specialist theological realms and sectarian realms. DCDuring TALK 23:13, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be tagged as US? In the UK, we call it the Authorized Version. SemperBlotto 23:15, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Yes, we (Brits) do usually call it the AV, but we also call it the KJV (he was our king too!). In some areas of the UK it is common to use the old name, (i.e. KJV) so I vote not to delete or tag at all. Dbfirs 23:40, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I would agree with Dbfirs. KJV is possibly more commonly used than Authorised Version. AV usually needs to needs to be qualified as to who's AV one is talking about, whereas KJV is clear from the start. -- Algrif 12:50, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Authorized Version gets about as many b.g.c. hits as King James Version when appropriately qualified to make sure that we are talking about Bibles. "Authorized Version" seems to me to used somewhat more often in discussions about the Bible editions in theological or religio-political contexts. "King James Version" seems to be the name somewhat favored in a literary context. That might account for the UK/US prevalence differences, which are hard to quantify. DCDuring TALK 14:45, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

The difference is that England has/had it's own church the CoE. THE Bible authorized by the head of that church is thus the "Authorized Version." Since the CoE is not the only church in America (and is known under a pseudonym there), the bible can't simply be the "Authorized Version", and gets a more descriptive name. The same phenomenon happens in other situations, I have seen books with titles like "Our Native Birds" or "These Names of Ours" published in England. Locally, I hear people talk about going to "the mountains" (by which they mean the Sierra Nevada) or going into "the city" (by which they mean SanFrancisco). In some contextxs, a qualifier or descriptor is deemed unnecessary because (obviously) everyone around you will understand, won't they? --EncycloPetey 14:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I'll have to ask one of my friends on the board of a local "Episcopal" church here in US to find our what they call it. DCDuring TALK 01:12, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I can provide citations (from other Bibles) published in the US that call it the King James Version. That's the only name I knew it by until I was in college. In the US, we actually have several revised editions around, each of which has a similar (and therefore confusing) name. There's the (British) Revised Version, the Revised Standard Version, the American Standard Version, the New American Standard Version, and the New Revised Standard Version, at least. I do not know which (if any) has the current support of the Episcopal Church. --EncycloPetey 03:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Who cares what's more commonly used? When someone says "the King James Version" you know they're talking about the Bible, even if they never say "Bible" or any other Biblical or related word. If you think they should be calling it something else, take it up with them, not with Wiktionary. We only document the language people use, and this is something everybody is expected to know. DAVilla 05:37, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

We seem to be pussyfooting around this RfD. This seems to be a clear keep because it is sometimes used in writing to communicate the meanings "Bible" and "Protestant religion of an older, more traditional sort". I am not sure that it has all this meaning identically among all English speakers (India?, non-Protestants?), so some kind of context tags might be appropriate. Perhaps Usage notes or more citations would be useful to convey the connotations. DCDuring TALK 11:12, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep Complete agreement. Attributive use which can be easily cited. -- Algrif 12:41, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Related question: Should we have an entry for King James, defined as the KJV Bible? I can't offhand find a cite (too muich noise), but I'm almost sure I've seen and heard this used. --EncycloPetey 16:24, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

I think we should, and one or two of these wouldn't be so bad to cite. The problem becomes one that Visviva pointed out with respect to proper names, that the out-of-context criterion would be extremely tedious to apply, as it has already proven for brand names. At least in the latter case, there is a supposed force pushing to have the names cited, but if there's someone standing up for Gloopy-Glup used in only one corner of the world, who's going to put in the time for Academically-Known if not as widely known as the King James? And as to that, who is standing up for the King himself?

I would want to have these, first of all, and if it works well then for place names too, but I would also like to see more lax criteria applied, allowing for instance the cites that have already been found in this case although they are not out of context. Unfortunately that would mean that we could end up with a lot more than would normally be considered, and that's not something that the majority of the community would support. Maybe there's another way to write the criteria, such as looking for certain patterns? I wouldn't want to rely on it exclusively, but I've found "the ____ of" to be highly indicative. (In your case it seems to carry another meaning, the version that would be of that era, not directly in reference to the Bible.) DAVilla 17:31, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep.—msh210℠ 21:59, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 19:02, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Rainbow Brite

It seems I RFD'd this in june last year. one of our fictional characters from the Care Bears. -Keene2 19:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete --EncycloPetey 14:51, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Seems to be citable, e.g. Chicken Soup for the Recovering Soul, Stephen King's The Tommyknockers, lots of books on young children and others. DAVilla 17:42, 26 March 2008 (UTC)

hwyl

Sense 5 seems to be just a special case of sense 3, but I don't speak Welsh, so I cannot judge accurately. Dbfirs 23:30, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Don't you think they mean proselytizing or proselytising ? DCDuring TALK 23:51, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

I think they're distinct. I read sense 3 as being a character trait epitomised by non-conformist preachers, whereas sense 5 is the name of a method of prosthletising employed by preachers (who may or may not be non-conformist). Only senses 2 (fun) and 4 (sail) are listed in my (basic) English-Welsh dictionary so I am not sure. Thryduulf 23:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this will shed some light on it. I didn't realize that all five senses were in some way part of the same meaning. Another meaning seems to be personal "state", although that might be an abstraction of mood. GTTR. DCDuring TALK 01:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately I can't see a preview of that book (it is not unknown for different regions to see or not see different works on bgc), so I can't say one way or another. Thryduulf 01:56, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I can't see the book either, but I accept the shade of meaning, so I've removed the rfd and corrected the spelling (which is what brought me to the entry in the first place). Thanks. Dbfirs 21:29, 24 March 2008 (UTC)

I am distressed that the two of you can't use the link. Any thoughts on why? Browser related? Does this problem arise in entries? I thought that I could paste a link and thereby provide all the context anyone would need for our more stringent attestation test. If I can't, ..... DCDuring TALK 01:07, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

From past experience of this (sometime last year), it is almost certainly a region thing. Dbfirs and I are both in the UK, whereas I believe you are in the USA or Canada. The most likely explanation for the difference is Google being cautious over copyright issues. Thryduulf 01:47, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

‘Writers very often mystify matters by using words that are not intelligible to their readers. Some with the air of classical knowledge will tell us that “hwyl” is an “affiatus;” and a good many readers will ask, “What is an affiatus?” They may as well aver that “hwyl” is a kind of atmospheric disturbance cause by windmills. It is mere rhetorical enthusiasm. It is a nautical metaphor. “Hwyl” is a “sail;” and when the Welsh say that a man is in a good “hwyl,” they mean that he is moving along or enjoying himself immensely, navigating gloriously on a sea of good feeling. When a man enters into a discussion of a subject enthusiastically, he is said to be “sailing” into it, which is exactly the Welsh idea of “hwyl.” It is somewhat akin to spread-eagleism in politics. The Welsh word “hwyl” is used  generally in a good and, par excellence, in a religious sense. There is, however, one peculiar characteristic of this hwyl which is especially Welsh. This is the peculiar cadences of the Welsh preacher when he is on the high sea of inspiration, when in a grand breeze and with all sails spread, he moves majestically to the goal of his sermon.’ —Ruakh_TALK 02:01, 25 March 2008 (UTC)

Chinese food

I believe X-food matter includes Chinese food. (see this rfd of Japanese food). if Japanese food doesn't survive, Chinese food doesn't. if Japanese food survive, Chinese food does. and this is the evidence to discuss this.

• Results 1 - 10 of about 2,330,000 for "Japanese food" -site:.jp -site:.cn. (0.19 seconds)
• Results 1 - 10 of about 755,000 for "Chinese food" -site:.cn -site:.jp. (0.18 seconds)

--Carl Daniels 05:51, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Agree. Delete both. Chinese and Japanese are the only "X foods" we have (so far). British food has recently been zapped. They are also the only "X cuisines". Let them go as well. Google hits do not necessarily mean a thing. Many other X foods and cuisines get millions of hits as does for example red car. Hekaheka 08:49, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete, but there is always scope for an Appendix:Menus/Chinese, which would definitely be beneficial. Keene2 13:42, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep I desired an active discussion about this "X-Food" matter. so I added this word to the rfd list. My position is... Wiktionary should collect any entries which are major terms in English, and need basic knowledge to share. Yes. we should collect Chinese food and Japanese food. When we hear those terms, it reminds us of 2 or 3 cuisines each at least. if wiktionary drops it, what should we collect? As of Chiense food, Chinese food is basically a general term of the 4 major cuisines of Sichuan, Cantonese, Shanghai, Beijing, and some. I think we should describe about this. Because we should share the basic knowledge of Chinese food in translation. and I think red car won't be the counterpart against this. because we don't need to share any basic knowledge, strongly bound to red car. yes. red car is a general term of red sedan, red coupe, red mini-van... . though it should be enough to write the categorization at the entry car. Chinese food, and Japanese food are different to it. Only when we meet the combination X+food, we can write its categorization at its section, related terms or See also. --Carl Daniels 02:34, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep both. The term "Chinese food" does not only mean the cuisine of China. In America, items like chop suey and fortune cookies commonly are included as "Chinese food", but neither is native to China. I've been to authentic Chinese restaurants where the customers became irate that there were no fortune cookies. The authentic restaurants don't serve them, because the cookies are not authentic. The meaning cannot be inferred from the components. --EncycloPetey 02:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Weak Keep I'm not sure there's much difference between Japanese car and Japanese food except that if someone asks me "Do you like Japanese food?" I know what they mean and I have a preference I can express. The same goes for a lot of X foods. So perhaps it passes the Egyptian pyramid test. -- Algrif 11:30, 2 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep If I open a Domino's Pizza in Beijing, that doesn't make it Chinese food. Language Lover 01:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Kept. (Note FWIW that Japanese food was kept also.)—msh210℠ 19:04, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

heavy roller

See #light roller

light roller

Both heavy roller and light roller are the sum of roller (sense 3, explicitly marked as "cricket") and the primary sense of both heavy and light. Thryduulf 16:36, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Given that a roller is "a heavy rolling device", would you suspect that (deprecated template usage) heavy roller isn't merely a redundant term, or for that matter that a light roller is "a heavy rolling device"? I'm okay with keeping these, but if not there would have to be a lot more explanation at (deprecated template usage) roller. DAVilla 17:56, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

I would favor keeping both of these because they name specific physical items. At least that's how I understand it, since I've never heard of either of these items before (coming as I do from a land where (deprecated template usage) cricket principally refers to an insect). --EncycloPetey 21:48, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

Keep both - specific meanings in cricket (played in some Greek islands). Παρατηρητής

Indo-European

rfd-sense: 40-word sense beginning "a linguistic theory". Seems mighty encyclopedic to me. DCDuring TALK 19:15, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Added by Kassios, notorious for his intentionally wrong pan-Greek etymologies. Proto-language sense is already encompassed in the 2nd the 3rd definitions, which should be merged. "Indo-Germanic" term itself is anachronistic misnomer, which fell out of use a century ago (still used in modern German though, where they have "indogermanische Sprachen" ^_^)--Ivan Štambuk 20:00, 29 March 2008 (UTC)

Sense already deleted by someone.—msh210℠ 19:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

en zo voorts

For correct spelling see: here Jcwf 23:53, 30 March 2008 (UTC)

April 2008

new year

Suspected sum of parts --Ivan Štambuk 00:04, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Possibly with just the current definition, but it is also used in phrases like "What are you doing at new year?" where it means the new year celebrations, or a period of time ranging from new year's eve to the period between about the 29th or 30th of December to about the 2nd or 3rd of January (or a smaller portion thereof). Also, "What are you doing for new year" means "how are you celebrating the new year" not "what are your plans for the following year?". Thryduulf 00:40, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps that's a U.K. thing? Nearly all of your examples sound odd to me; I'd say "New Year's" instead. —Ruakh_TALK 01:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

"New Year" and "New Year's" are used pretty much interchangeably in the UK for all the examples I gave. Thryduulf 01:26, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

But is it ever in lower case? That would seem to be the critical question here. -- Visviva 12:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Looks like sum of parts to me (UK) SemperBlotto 07:47, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

A survey of Google web and books suggests that "new month," "new decade" etc. are also widely used. new day should have an entry, but unless non-compositional usage is shown, new year and any others of this type should be deleted (without prejudice to New Year). BTW, this means that we need to add a sense to new (or at least rewrite one of the existing ones); the "current/later" definition doesn't quite fit. -- Visviva 08:02, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Strong Keep. Is solar system merely a sum of parts for Solar System? Are tropic and tropics the cloned entries of Tropic and Tropics respectively? These are just the tip of the iceberg from the many other pairs which I had found from this English Wiktionary that seems to deserve both uppercase and lowercase titles of the same word as legitimate word entries. Ironically and however, why not for this one? Vice versa, why not solar system, tropic, and tropics be gone deleted if they are as similar as or regarded as the sum of parts for Solar System, Tropic, and Tropics correspondingly? Secondly, below these are some of my research that apparently advocates the definition differences of the lowercase common noun new year and the uppercase proper noun New Year:

Results for "New Year": (noun)

1. the first day or days of the calendar year.
2. (initial capital letters) the first day or few days of a year in any of various calendars.
3. See New Year’s Day.
4. first few days of year: the first day or first few days of a calendar year.
5. the calendar year about to start or recently started.
6. usually New Year's: NEW YEAR'S DAY
7. the first days of a calendar year.
8. ROSH HASHANAH
9. (capital) the first day or several days of a year.
10. The first few days of a calendar year.
11. In particular, January 1 in the Julian calendar, Julian and Gregorian calendar, Gregorian calendars, calendar and the days following.
12. of or relating to New Year (rfv-sense, as adjective: is this valid or should it be considered a misspelling of New Year's?)

Results for "new year": (noun)

1. the year approaching or newly begun.

   Chiefly British, a handsel is a gift to express good wishes at the beginning of a new year or enterprise.

2. the calendar year just begun.
3. next year: the year following the current year, especially the early part of it.
4. the calendar year just begun or about to begin.
5. the period immediately before and after 31 December.
6. a year that has recently begun or will soon begin.
7. \new"-year`\ (adjective) Of or pertaining to, or suitable for, the commencement of the year; as, new-year gifts or odes.

60.50.9.94 09:51, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, it does meet the lemming test, which is good enough for me, since I do not favor a high burden of proof for anything as vague as "idiomaticity." Weak keep. Note however that the Webster's 1913 cite would actually apply to new-year, a (potential) separate entry. Also, as I have understood it, the sum-of-parts argument is that the current definition is the sum of new and year. "New year" couldn't be sum-of-parts from New Year, because New Year is not a part of "new year," and different capitalizations almost always deserve separate entries. However, it has not been shown that "new year" is ever used to mean "New Year," except perhaps by e.e. cummings and his latter-day followers on Usenet. -- Visviva 12:43, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. While new can theoretically appear before any of several time-unit words, its usage this way seems to be limited to new year and new day. Each of these caries connotation beyond the sum of the parts in a way that new month, new week, or new fortnight just don't do. --EncycloPetey 15:31, 1 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. I am not quite sure whether such entry should be measured or judged by the number of various dictionaries which they have it as criteria. But by the look of what links to that page seems to increase gradually (from five pages when it was first proposed for deletion until seven today apart from this page), such as the Finnish term uusi vuosi and it might be used for a little proof. Otherwise it would end up in Special:WantedPages as an unwanted page if deleted despite disabled. On the other hand, it is not surprising to note that this common noun was nominated into here on April the First since the "new year" is given credence to the most common explanation for the origin of April Fools' Day. ms:User:On Wheezier Plot 23:03, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 19:08, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

internet block

Internet-block

SoP.—msh210℠ 18:50, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It isn’t the sum of the parts. The sum of the parts could means, for example a physical barrier which prevents a user plugging a computer into a modem. That could also prevent a user accessing the Internet.

An Internet block is a specific type of computer programme. Barbara Shack 19:09, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Note also that among the first 31 Google Books results for internet-block, just one (by Guthrie) seems to be with this meaning, and it has a capitalized initial I. The rest have commas between the words, or the like, or refer to a block of IP addresses. The remaining five Books results are invisible to me.—msh210℠ 19:15, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

I've capitalized it and added a hyphen. Is it OK now?Barbara Shack 19:27, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

It still seems to me, at least, to be a SoP. Others will have their say on that issue, and, doubtless, some of the regulars here will disagree with me. As to whether it's attested (which is what the Google Books results are for), we still have only one result (and it has no hyphen, incidentally; I'm not sure why you added one); can you find more? But attestation is an issue for Requests for verification, not here; and if the consensus here is that this term is not a SoP, then I will recommend moving the discussion to that page for an attempt to find attestation.—msh210℠ 19:32, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

This fails just like and for the same reason that virus checker, virus scanner, and spam blocker all fail, they are simply SoP names of types of programs. An internet-block is software which blocks the internet, a virus checker is software which checks for viruses. There is no information beyond what is contained in the name which requires definition. - [The]DaveRoss 20:35, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to RFV or delete. If I thought this phrase were real and always had this meaning, I wouldn't be ready to call it SOP, but I don't, so I am. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 22:37, 3 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to RfV to see if some orthography for this has the meaning given: roughly, "selective user-computer internet-site blocker". This longer phrase would seem to be SoP. The phrase in question doesn't quite seem that way because it would seem to me to allow for governmental blocking software not installed on user machines, complete blocking of the open internet while allowing access to intranets, etc. Or am I missing something? DCDuring TALK 15:27, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The way I've used the term, an internet block is not a program, it is a sequential set or IP adresses (usually specified by a mask). RJFJR 19:23, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete - rubbish. Παρατηρητής

beer tent

What else would it be? Equivalent to beer room/beer corner/wine tent/milk tent/muffin palace etc. Keene2 18:11, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

A tent for storing beer? A tent made of recycled beer cans? A tent with a picture of a beer on it? Re your examples, I've never heard of a beer room or a wine tent. I'm sure the terms are used, but they don't seem to be nearly as pervasive as this one. Inclined to weak keep as having a more specific (normal) referent than the sum of its parts. -- Visviva 02:27, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

If there was a tent for storing beer, it would probably be called "beer tent" (add sense, if kept?!). A tent made of recycled beer can's would probably be called "beercan tent". To name a tent acc. to a picture hardly ever happens, and if it does, it would likely be a proper noun. There's a wine tent in the annual Oktoberfest beer festival (probably world's largest) In Munich. Delete as SoP. Hekaheka 06:02, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Although there is a wine tent at the Octoberfest, the name beer tent has a much more strongly defined meaning in Bavaria. At smaller festivals there is usually only one large tent, where people eat and drink and the traditional music plays, and it is called beer tent, sometimes even as a synonym for festival tent or a tent having this shape. It is the similar to beer garden, which is not just any garden in which people drink beer, or beer tables, which are not just any tables, but refer to a special type of picnic table. Keep --Zeitlupe 14:14, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Visviva's comments.--Dmol 07:53, 6 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. This is a specific colloquial description of a temporarily licenced premises under UK law. -- Algrif 12:57, 7 April 2008 (UTC) I've added a citation, too, to show that it is understood to mean one specific place. -- Algrif 13:05, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep Παρατηρητής

Kept.—msh210℠ 19:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

palma de la mano

Sum of parts. Dmcdevit·t 08:06, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

I lived two years in Spain (Barcelona), and I heard "palma de la mano" quite often, probably to make sure which of the several senses of the word "palma" the speaker meant. According to my experience, it might be regarded as a set phrase, which would merit inclusion. Palma de la mano (and definitely not palma alone), is used in some expressions such as "como por la palma de la mano" and "liso como la palma de la mano". It also gets 760,000 Google hits. On the other hand "palma de la mano" does not have its own entry in the Diccionario de la lengua Española of the Real Academia Española, at least not in the web version. Hekaheka 08:48, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. It is needed to translate know like the back of one's hand. I agree with Hekaheka that the Spanish nearly always use the full expression, not only because they always have done, but also to make clear they are not talking about a tree. It is current usage and so has a place in Wikt. IMHO -- Algrif 13:21, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. The Diccionario de la lengua española is written for native speakers of Spanish, who have different needs and requirements in regard to their own language than English-speakers have for Spanish. For Spaniards, it’s SoP, but for us it’s a term. —Stephen 15:52, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 19:12, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Family Feud

If the show meets CFI it needs to be split out, but I do not think it does. --Connel MacKenzie 07:35, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Even an inclusionist like me thinks it should be removed. SemperBlotto 07:19, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't understand why these things, which regularly survive based on citations, are pushed into RfD instead of RfV. Is it because they can be deleted more quickly? The Proper Noun needs its own entry. The show is used allusively often and attributively on occasion. Why the bias against pop culture? DCDuring TALK 11:53, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Most of the bias against "pop culture" is due to incessant spam from the various media outlets - media outlets that in turn try to get a name out there any way they can - even if it mean crap loading here. (I'm not saying that is necessarily the case here; I'm answering your more general question.) All reasonable dictionaries prohibit product and company names, for many other reasons. But being on the internet, we are a finer target - reasonably, we absolutely should take a much harder line than major print dictionaries. Ans a much harder line than we currently do. --Connel MacKenzie 11:04, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

I've put the proper noun where it belongs. DCDuring TALK 12:01, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

RFV (or just keep per citations:Family Feud).—msh210℠ 19:14, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

head

"Front of a queue" sense. Isn't this just the "foremost part" sense? Does anyone ever say "you can go to the head" when they mean "you can go to the head of the line"? -- Visviva 07:38, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

"At the head of the queue" and "go to the head of the queue" are the most common formulations, "come to the head of the queue" is rarer. When the context is firmly established as being the position in a queue, you could say "You can go to the head" or "I'm at the head", but in both cases I would use either the word "front" instead of "head" or include the word "queue". In other words, delete sense. Thryduulf 11:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

Can we look at some of the other senses, too, and the rfc, while we're at it? These multi-sense words are killers. Grouping can help a bit. Some of the entries with contexts are closely associated with a more generic sense, more figurative with more concrete (e.g. pus/crisis).

1. 2nd sense "any round object". A ball or sphere is not automatically a head.
2. The sense for hammer/axe head is worded to include striking tools so the business end of a lacrosse stick needs to mentioned separately and other non-striking tools and other implements that have parts called heads that are not included.
3. It doesn't seem to have a good sense for head of lettuce, cauliflower, etc.
4. The sense for nail doesn't seem to include screw.
5. Anyone who is willing to take this on should go to the head of the class. DCDuring TALK 01:29, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

1. No, but many round masses are called heads. I have replaced "any" with "a"; is that sufficient?

2. I'm not really familiar with lacrosse terminology, but my understanding is that the rationale for this is similar to the rationale for the guitar sense; it refers to not to the business/top/working end of the stick, but to a very specific part of the stick. As for other tools, I'm sure it's true, but examples would be helpful. Some, like "head of a rake," might be covered by the principal-operating-part sense; or the striking-tool sense might need to be reworded to encompass all hand tools.

3. I guess it depends on whether a seed/flower head and a lettuce head are basically the same thing. My first inclination when reorganizing the defs was actually to put the lettuce example under sense 2; i.e. a head-shaped lump of lettuce, not a capitulum of lettuce -- but other dictionaries seem to disagree.

4. Huh? Why not? The definition mentions screws, and people talk about the heads of screws all the time.

6. I'd be surprised if the pustulent-abscess and crisis senses have any connection; it seems more likely that it is derived from the tendency for the head of the abscess to become round and swollen with pus. -- Visviva 08:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

I'm so sorry. I hadn't looked at the edit history. Wow! This is so much improved that I feel like I'm just quibbling, but quibble we must:

1. I'm not so sure that a round mass not connected to something to make a non-round whole would be said to have a head. The comet usage example is an illustration. Maybe it just has to say "part" in the def.
2. Too bad "business end" is too idiomatic for defining vocabulary. It seems almost a synonym for some of the senses of head.
   1. The ball-carrying part of a lacrosse stick is the business end. The stick is used (within the rules) for carrying the ball and for holding it while throwing it.
   2. Not just hand tools, but power tools, including industrial ones, also often have heads.
   3. MW3 has 11 subsenses for the sense closest to this (75+ subsenses for "head" as a whole).
3. I had never known the word capitulum; MW3 uses it as a subsense for an undefined sense, the other half of which is the head-of-lettuce sense.
4. I think I need another monitor so I can see what I'm writing about while I'm writing. I seem to misrember things. (ie, screw/nail). Huh, indeed.
5. You are the usage example for head of the class.
6. I recently got that crisis/abscess relationship from some non-authoritative, but credible source (Crystal or Pinker, I think). They didn't offer any support for the assertion. It seemed to give me a litte aha moment.
7. Is a well-head ever referred to as the head of a well?

Having a long, single-level list of senses made me use my printer to try to hand-make a hierarchy. A two-level (even three-level hierarchy, as in my MW3) is a little bit of a help in grouping somewhat related definitions. Why is that not done here? The use of "#" allows it technically. DCDuring TALK 11:09, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

7. Seems so. [5] But this is arguably covered by the "topmost part" sense. -- Visviva 12:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we should move this discussion back to RfC. Regarding subsenses, I was thinking about the same thing and put together one possible mockup at User:Visviva/head. I agree that this leads to much improved readability, but a) MediaWiki's handling of ## seems less than ideal (it's confusing to have multiple "sense 2's"), and b) if this were going to be implemented on more than an experimental basis, it would require thorough community discussion and a revision of WT:ELE, particularly since some additional fiddling with indentation rules is required. -- Visviva 12:21, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

RfC seems like the right forum. I'm going to collect prior discussions about subsenses and put the links on a user page somewhere. DCDuring TALK 13:47, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Regarding MediaWiki's handling of ##, it would be ideal to have senses labelled as 6, 6.1, 6.2, 7, etc. I would assume that doing this will require a mod by a developer to allow this behaviour to be set on a per-project basis rather than being js or css hackable?

If it does require a developer mod, then we will need to show overwhelming support to have any hope of anything being done this side of 2012. Where do we have the discussion about this? Thryduulf 16:01, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually it is CSS-hackable; MediaWiki just generates <ol> and <li> tags for the list and leaves the rest to the browser. Not sure how feasible it is to have one level numeric and one level alphabetic (which IMO would be ideal), but there must be a way. -- Visviva 00:16, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

The options described at http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/generate.html#propdef-list-style-type are supported by most halfway-modern browsers (though IIRC not IE 6); something like ol > li > ol { list-style-type: lower-alpha; } would do what you describe (as would just ol ol { list-style-type: lower-alpha; }; the former would only affect ordered-lists that are immediate children of ordered-list elements, while the latter would affect any ordered-list that's a descendant of another). I have no thoughts how to do what Thryduulf describes, barring JavaScript that finds them, sets their list-style-type to none, and inserts the right pattern at the beginning of their content — though that would have the down-side of moving the list markers inside the list. To keep the list markers outside the list and do this would be even more complicated. All told, a great thought, but probably not worth it. —Ruakh_TALK 00:37, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

What I currently have here seems to implement Thryduulf's suggestion fairly well, at least on FF/Windows; however, it may cause undesirable effects with other types of lists. -- Visviva 04:14, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh, wow. One of these days I should re-read the CSS 2.1 spec; I had so completely forgotten that those properties even existed, to the extent that they don't even look familiar! At least, I should re-read it before the next time I decide something is impossible. :-P   Anyway, good work. :-)   Something like this would be even better:

ol { counter-reset: subitem }
ol > li { counter-increment: subitem }
ol ol > li { display: block }
ol ol > li:before { content: counters(subitem, ".") ". " }

since for the top-level it would retain the benefits of actual list style (e.g. the ability to have list-style-position be outside, as it is by default; we can halfway-simulate this with something like ol > li { text-indent: -1.5em }, and maybe we should do so for the nested lists if no one can think of a better way, but for the outer list there's no need).

—Ruakh_TALK 11:55, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

This would have to go to BP and Vote, I'm pretty sure. There has, unsurprisingly, been discussion of this: Wiktionary:Beer_parlour_archive/2007/May#subdividing_definitions and Talk:quaint, for example. There are probably other discussions, but I'd rather someone selected a good one that they were involved in rather than me trying to determine the quality and import of something I wasn't involved in. It's worth a review of the prior discussion before we reopen it to see if the issue looks different this time. There also might be something else we could do that was less dramatic to improve the definitions for long, basic, highly polysemic words. We seem to be a little light on guidelines, let alone policy, in this area. There are a few examples of subsenses for particular words. Widsith has been a reasoned advocate of subsenses. Most of the ongoing head additional-sense discussion is back at rfc. DCDuring TALK 17:39, 10 April 2008 (UTC)

cattle

rfd-sense: collective noun. I thought that the collective noun was "herd". DCDuring TALK 03:08, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Whoever added that probably just didn't know what "collective noun" meant. —Ruakh_TALK 04:58, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

I have converted it into a proper definition. Now, how about the second definition - that does not seem correct, and is in no other dictionary that I have. SemperBlotto 07:16, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Turns up in the Canadian Criminal Code [6] . -- Visviva 10:04, 12 April 2008 (UTC)

Revert; the noun is not uncountable. "Uncountable" means a noun cannot be used with numerals, and cattle can be (and is). See this quotation from the NY Times [7] "...bringing with them thirty-five cattle and two horses". The noun most certainly is countable. --EncycloPetey 15:06, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

This rfd is not about the plural material on the inflection line or in the usage note, but about an already removed purported collective-noun sense (like "herd", eg, a "cattle" of Herefords) that some with more boldness than I would have deleted on sight. I thought maybe there was some other usage that I didn't know (and also wasn't in MW3).

While we're at it we might clean up the plural discussion, which could use some clarification. The {{rare}} "beef" (guffaw) sense is the only sense that seems to me to be uncountable. The "rare" tag, if not just there for the wordplay, might suggest that we should not give such prominence to uncountability on the inflection line. (I would argue for eliminating it from the inflection line in favor of the definition lines for all entries, not just ones like this.) Longman'd DCE just shows it as plural. MW3 shows it as "usually plural in construction". I have not yet searched for "cattle-is" on b.g.c. to see how justified MW3's "usually". The usage note is not as helpful as it might be because it mostly does not address the question of what number-inflection of verb cattle takes. DCDuring TALK 18:22, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, I think, that "cattle" is a kind of generic term. If you only have 1 cattle, you would normally define that one as what it actually is, e.g. a bull, or cow, or ox, or whatever member of the cattle genus (if you will allow me to use this term incorrectly here) that one animal happens to be. But most certainly it is NOT a collective noun, and neither is it uncountable. -- Algrif 16:17, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The singular use is much, much less common (but citable). The problem is with the term plurale tantum, literally meaning "plural only". Am I supposed to say "usually plurale tantum" or plurale fere or plurale plerumque? I don't know of any dictionaries that provide a good model of how to use plurale tantum in such a case, because I don't know of any dictionaries that use the term at all. I'm sure there must be some, because we wouldn't have wanted to be breaking new ground on something like this. DCDuring TALK 16:53, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

What I did at pax, which similarly is used far more commonly as a plural, but does get used singularly, is a simple usage note saying "Usually plural". Thryduulf 19:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

I like it. But I favor keeping "usually plural" within an inch of the inflection line no matter how long the list of definitions. DCDuring TALK 19:33, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

TMBG

Abbreviation of a band. Sure, its an acronym, which usually makes any entry passable, but I think we agreed against bans names (except for the Beatles and the Rolling Stones because they're, I guess, so huge). I doubt anyone can see TMBG in their league though. Keene 06:37, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

• Well, it links to a Wikipedia article, not to a definition here. If it stays, then I shall add to AWB. SemperBlotto 07:51, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

I wasn't aware that 'hugeness' was a metric we were concerned with, but I added this as a test case anyway. I provided usage cites on Citations:TMBG spanning 8 years, 4 books and a usenet. We don't add band names, but TMBG is not the name of the band, (deprecated template usage) They Might Be Giants is the name of the band. There are several acronyms of this type, (deprecated template usage) STP, (deprecated template usage) P!ATD, where the acronym is well known and widely used, but not the name of the band. (another citation, see: alt text). - [The]DaveRoss 15:02, 13 April 2008 (UTC)

• Delete. From the above my understanding is that if TMBG were the official name of the band, we would not even consider including it (correct me if I'm wrong). I don't see why not being the official name should ever be an argument for inclusion. Of course if there is any reason to think that this might be used out of context (a la the brand names criterion), or to refer to anything other than the band itself, I'd be inclined to take a second look. -- Visviva 05:30, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• See the citations page linked above, the term is in use. It is an initialism which has meaning. Why wouldn't we keep it? (deprecated template usage) BMW, (deprecated template usage) AT&T, (deprecated template usage) LAX... we have a long history of keeping initialisms and acronyms even when the term it represents doesn't merit inclusion. - [The]DaveRoss 01:50, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

• Delete as per argument of Visviva above. --Gauss 10:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete as promotional. --Connel MacKenzie 10:49, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

That is the most ridiculous argument I have heard...I added it, I didn't do so to promote the band, if this is promotional we need to re-nominate almost every brand name entry we have. What about the entry is in any way promotional, any moreso than any brand name or trademarked term which we already have? I am still waiting from some deletion reason based on either president or written policy. - [The]DaveRoss 20:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Replace with {{only in}} Wikipedia. As a band it is clearly not a dictionary term, however as something that people might look up, we should at least shunt them in the right direction. Incidentally waiting for everything to happen according to policy is a bad sign, nothing would ever get done sensibly that way. Conrad.Irwin 20:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I would apply brand-name priciples to bands... and possibly to acronyms in general—that they not be identified in citations (or preceding sections of a work)—but at least to organizations like this. If it's promotional, then the ones promoting it can have fun finding independent citations. I'm not sure that this one would pass, not because the band isn't well-known, but because one would use the full name of the band in contexts where it isn't clear that what's being referred to is a band. At least, I would. If others do not, then that's what citations are for. DAVilla 06:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

apple midge

This article is clearly out of date. According to ADW the scientific name listed "Sciara mali" is not in use, and Google hits are all from the last century. Unless someone who's better versed in science than I am can give this page a thorough edit, then I think it should go. GreetingsEarthling 14:10, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Mainly 19th century book hits, with some C20th. Also refered to as "Molobrus mali" (i have no idea if this is correct either) But, this makes it a case for clean-up, as you say. But not deletion, as the insect exists and has enough published cites to meet CFI. -- Algrif 15:06, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep This is exactly what we should keep in the area of biological and other scientific names. We can provide a bridge between vernacular names and more current and scientific ones. If we can get a user to Wikipedia or Wikispecies (which does not have entries for obsolete names, but may have the word if it is used in the title of an article they cite), we are doing them some good. DCDuring TALK 17:01, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

Per DCDuring, we keep obsolete terms. I wish we kept obsolete definitions as well, as the ones for a second. I'm pretty sure that word was in use before anyone had discovered absolute zero, let alone hyperfine levels of caesium-133. DAVilla 06:19, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 19:16, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

tincidunt

This does not appear in my Classical dictionaries, but that does not mean it isn't a word in New Latin. The problem is that many of the 206 Google cites (linked on the page) are dubious. One of the cites I looked at was otherwise in German, with (deprecated template usage) tincidunt in the middle of it. Many others I looked at seem to be books about software packages, but written in Latin!? I am very confused by all this. Do we have a neologism here? A protologism? Or soomething else? --EncycloPetey 15:55, 13 March 2008 (UTC)

• This is not in my Latin dictionary either - and I can't even figure out what verb is might be a form of. SemperBlotto 16:24, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
• Every bgc result (IINM) is in a lorem ipsum. (There must be some software used by all these authors that generates a lorem ipsum including the word tincidunt.)—msh210℠ 19:15, 13 March 2008 (UTC)
  • So do we delete this, or keep it, since so many books have it, but with a note that it's not a word and has no meaning?—msh210℠ 16:09, 19 March 2008 (UTC)
    • I'm don't think it meets the current CFI, except perhaps for the “general rule” that “A term should be included if it's likely that someone would run across it and want to know what it means.”^link Indeed, that seems to be the reason this entry was created: an anonymous editor found it in lorem-ipsum text generated by a certain lorem-ipsum–generating Web site, and despite knowing the purpose of the site, seemed to believe that it was a real word (which does make sense, seeing as the original lorem ipsum was a corrupted version of an actual Latin text, and one might well expect words in lorem-ipsum text to be real Latin words). So, move to RFD and ponder the nature of meaning. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 23:44, 19 March 2008 (UTC)

Preceding is from RFV. Please continue discussion here.—msh210℠ 21:39, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

• Keep. to be nice to users who might not be familiar with lorem ipsum, as Ruakh suggested. DCDuring TALK 14:56, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

  There is at least one other way of being nice, so I take back my keep vote until the finessing more-or-less within-the-rules approach suggested below is evaluated. DCDuring TALK 11:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep, as it is used and someone may want to find out what it means (or in this case refers to). sewnmouthsecret 15:04, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

• Comments. (1) It's obviously meant to look like Latin (especially considering the text always found around it). But it's not Latin. If we keep this, what language header do we use? (2) and what part of speech? (3) I suspect that there are many other terms in tincidunt's class: non-words that are frequently found in lorem-ipsum text. If we keep this, presumably we'll keep all such.—msh210℠ 22:29, 17 April 2008 (UTC)

  The lorem ipsum entry calls "lorem ipsum" an English noun. It does not have any attestation.

  Perhaps we could finesse the problem. Perhaps we could include "text" including "tincidunt" (not now present in the entry) in the "lorem ipsum" article. That way at least the search engine would lead a user to a place that gave an explanation. (BTW, it would be nice if we could also find at least one real usage example for "lorem ipsum" as a noun. It would also be nice if we had some discussion there about the term on its talk page.) DCDuring TALK 00:39, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

  I have found a few cites of "lorem ipsum" being used as a noun for attestation. I have also found a short nonsense quote in which it is used with "tincidunt", which I have inserted in the lorem ipsum entry. Once the article gets re-indexed, it should direct search to that entry as well as "tincidunt". That would make our decisions about "tincidunt" and the precedent it might set a little easier. DCDuring TALK 01:05, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

  A search for "tincidunt" would find the cited noun entry "lorem ipsum", which is used in English. DCDuring TALK 11:43, 18 April 2008 (UTC)

  I would have thought one of the key points of lorem ipsum is that it is ==Translingual== . -- Visviva 15:22, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

  I wouldn't object to such altering of lorem ipsum. I was just interested in whether we could stick to the form of our practice about PoS and citation, preferably both for lorem ipsum and tincidunt. We seem to be able to do it for lorem ipsum under one of English or Translingual header. I see how by finesse to include in search "tincidunt" and many other frequently occuring pseudo-words without having to have new entries for them, but I don't see how they can be entries under our existing rules. Nor do I particularly want to if search would take a user to an informative lrem ipsum entry. DCDuring TALK 15:59, 19 April 2008 (UTC)

  Well, I think that "lorem ipsum" itself is probably a valid English term, but that the words (or word-like objects) which occur in lorem ipsum passages are best regarded as translingual. IMO the same arguments that apply to having entries for nonsense Hangul sylables that have never been used to convey meaning -- which the community recently decided was desirable -- would apply at least as strongly to lorem ipsum words, which at least are used for some purpose. Given the structure of Wiktionary, I would say that if we are going to cover such words in mainspace, they should each be given their own entry. If not, they could simply be listed in Appendix:Lorem ipsum. -- Visviva 09:59, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

  An appendix is only useful if you know what you are looking for or at least realize that are appendices to search. It's one drawback to citation space. There are many more users who don't know than who do. DCDuring TALK 11:16, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

  Fixed formatting slightly (my goof). Fair enough, but if these are worthy of mainspace inclusion -- and they certainly do provide some user value, if only to let the user know that this is not a real word -- I think they really do need their own individual entries. -- Visviva 14:04, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

• I don't, because they're never used as words. They're nonsense text that appear in a single, specific (albeit widely circulated) "text". The text is in pseudo-Latin, which is not a language and has no ISO code. The individual "words" are never used in Latin nor in any other language I know of. --EncycloPetey 15:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

  I don't see how that would make them any worse than random Hangul syllables which are never used to convey meaning, but which the community unanimously decided were desirable because someone might want to know that they are not words (or something like that). At least there is plausible reason to think that someone might actually imagine that tincidunt (et al.) are words, and need to be disabused of the notion. -- Visviva 10:37, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  The differences are: (1) Hangul syllables are used to assemble words. So, just as we have entries for the letters of the Roman alphabet, we have entries for Hangul syllables. (2) Hangul syllables have a language header; tincidunt does not because it is not used in any language. --EncycloPetey 18:06, 21 April 2008 (UTC)

  Good point, EncycloPetey (15:35, 20 April 2008 (UTC)). All the cites are from the same widely distributed lorem ipsum. So they're not independent, right?—msh210℠ 18:21, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

ubiquitous network society

This seems wrong. I'm not sure why: SoP; no consistent meaning; nonsense. DCDuring TALK 10:57, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

It may be nonsense to some, but it is a topic widely discussed in the telecom community around the world. It was one of the main themes of the ITU (International Telecom Union) conference in 2006: [8]. A simple Google search will give more than 10,000 hits. Hekaheka 18:05, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I had thought it was suspect, but was surprised to find that it is rather widespread. Keep as a set phrase.--Dmol 19:11, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

I should have just RfV'd this I suppose. Does anyone have sensible usage of this? Does it have a single somewhat vague meaning? Does it have multiple meanings more sharply defined, but more broadly used than in one author's works? Does it have a specific context where people would know what was meant? DCDuring TALK 20:18, 23 April 2008 (UTC)

As I said above, the term is mostly used by telecom speacialists, certainly by a number of authors, and it has been in existence for more than three years now. It has a clearly defined meaning. I agree with Dmol, it looks set phrase to me. I have not seen e.g. "omnipresent web society" used as an alternative term, although the words could mean the same. Added one quote. Hekaheka 20:56, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Move to RFV. I don't think this passes the test; its use is too narrow, apparently limited to those within the conference-attending segment of the telecom industry, only. --Connel MacKenzie 10:44, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Which problem do we have with conference-attending telecom experts? I'm sure there are a lot of terms in Wiktionary that are used by much smaller segments of people. It's not only telecom people that are discussing the ubi-society. Among the 11,500 Google hits and 50 bgc hits are publications discussing e.g. biometrics, retail trade, airspace and vehicular technology. --Hekaheka 09:01, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

tío materno

Sum of parts. Spanish, like English, has no word especially for maternal or paternal relatives. Dmcdevit·t 05:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete, I guess, except that it seems silly to delete it as long as we still have maternal uncle. —Ruakh_TALK 12:50, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

tío paterno

Sum of parts. Spanish, like English, has no word especially for maternal or paternal relatives. Dmcdevit·t 05:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

How else would you know that it doesn’t simply mean a "fatherly uncle"? —Stephen 20:32, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

abuelo paterno

Sum of parts. Spanish, like English, has no word especially for maternal or paternal relatives. Dmcdevit·t 05:03, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

R.E.M.

American-rock-band sense. —Ruakh_TALK 11:41, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

From a help-the-normal-user perspective, I've never understood why such a sense is a bad thing. Maybe we could make the sense line slightly more informative and include a link to the WP article. DCDuring TALK 11:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Delete sense - it's purely encyclopedic. bd2412 T 02:26, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Proper, yes, but still part of the English lexicon. DAVilla 06:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

FOLDOC

Spam. The last edit was by the site's author. Dmcdevit·t 12:21, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Not spam, but not obviously CFI-meeting either; has no obvious lexicographical interest apart from being a famous acronym. Should probably go the same way as #TMBG above, so I will vote as I did there to delete. -- Visviva 12:57, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Note: if deleted, we should have a line in Wiktionary:Glossary for entries like molly-guard to link to. -- Visviva 12:59, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

delete we are not here to provide endless links to other "Free" dictionaries. --Williamsayers79 21:18, 28 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep in the current soft-link form. --Connel MacKenzie 10:36, 18 May 2008 (UTC) Also: see other discussions on other dictionaries; inherently of lexical value. --Connel MacKenzie 10:39, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep. I think we should keep it, but I don't have a good reason why. :-P   —Ruakh_TALK 14:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

maternal uncle

Sum of parts: useful only as a place to hang translations. (Unlike some editors, I'm not thoroughly opposed to having such a place in cases like this where a lot of languages make this distinction; but if we're going to do that, the entry should be structured so as to make that clear, and it should only include the translations that rightfully hang there. A lot of the translations we currently list are either catch-all words for "uncle", or equally-SOP translations.) —Ruakh_TALK 12:54, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Is it really sum of parts? A genealogically naive user might assume it means "mother's uncle." -- Visviva 13:02, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Or a matronly uncle. —Stephen 13:24, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Not sum of parts. No combination of maternal or uncle will define the term without ambiguity.--Dmol 14:16, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

Necessary, and desirable, in English. Translations which are SOP should have their component words wikilinked separately. Widsith 20:46, 27 April 2008 (UTC)

So, question: would y'all argue that since (deprecated template usage) maternal brother isn't already taken as a genealogical term, it might indeed indicate a mother's brother, or to a motherly brother? It's true that (deprecated template usage) maternal has multiple senses, but I believe that (deprecated template usage) maternal <relative> has only one, and various examples of this fact are all SOP. —Ruakh_TALK 03:57, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

No, I would say that "maternal brother" can only mean a brother who is quite motherly. At any rate, it is pretty confusing to interpret it any other way. More to the point, it is an almost non-existant phrase, whereas maternal uncle is a very common collocation, and furthermore is idiomatic in the sense that this is the most natural way to express the concept in English. Widsith 05:41, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Well, all the b.g.c. hits I can find for "maternal brother" use it to mean "brother with whom ego shares a mother" only... however, a web search for "maternal brother"+"mother's brother" turns up a number of sites which appear to treat these phrases as synonymous. (For example, on a professor's course-notes website, "He notes in European stories the maternal brother is good and the father's brother is evil." [9]) This does seem to indicate that "maternal" can be polysemous even when applied to relatives, at least when the author is not paying strict attention. Personally, if I encountered "maternal brother" out of context, I wouldn't be sure which way to interpret it, if only because the notion of distinguishing siblings by shared parent is rather foreign to me. -- Visviva 06:00, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, good point. You could obviously have a maternal brother and a step-brother. Widsith 06:31, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

So if I may paraphrase: there's a strong tendency to interpret (deprecated template usage) maternal uncle as "uncle on one's mother's side", just as there's a strong tendency toward that interpretation of (deprecated template usage) maternal <relative> in all other cases. (Is that fair to say?) That doesn't sound like a ringing endorsement of the term's non-SOP-ness. —Ruakh_TALK 21:17, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Weak delete. --Bequw → ¢ • τ 23:15, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. IMO reasonable doubt exists as to compositionality, and the value of this and related terms as translation-hangers adds some weight in favor of keeping. -- Visviva 14:49, 12 May 2008 (UTC)

Harry Potter terms

I presume all the other wonderful Harry Potter coinages/meanings abide by the same policy?

• sieppi, seeker, quidditch, kvicken, dunkare, Voldemort, metloboj, tragač, אתה־יודע־מי ,הוגוורטס, Hogwarts, מוגל, Muggle, mugglare, Mudla, מחפש ,קווידיץ׳, metlobal

And probably a few others. For some of them RfD/RfV has already been placed. --Ivan Štambuk 13:04, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

From an above discussion, these should all be looked into and decided upon individually, most can be deleted without prejudice. - [The]DaveRoss 23:42, 29 April 2008 (UTC)

Yes, but save sieppi. I have already deleted Harry Potter -sense, but the word has other meanings in Finnish. Hekaheka 20:45, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

(deprecated template usage) מחפש (m'khapés) is not just a Harry Potter term; it should be fixed rather than deleted. —Ruakh_TALK 03:25, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

quidditch is now a real sport. That will pass RFV or RFD. I imagine Muggle would pass, as well. sewnmouthsecret 20:49, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Of course these terms shouldn't be deleted outright if they aren't just HP terms. - [The]DaveRoss 21:12, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Native Californian

Seems strictly SoP. DCDuring TALK 11:30, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Keep. This isn't SoP, it's just incorrectly defined. It's a state-level equivalent of Native American. It refers not to those born in California, but to the indigenous people present in the region of the state before the arrival of Europeans, and to the descendants of those people. --EncycloPetey 13:05, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

You want to keep an incorrect sense on the grounds that there might be a real sense? I challenge the entry as it is. I've never heard of the usage you suggest. It is certainly plausible, but needs to be cited. If it is actually used as you say, we will have to keep the SoP meaning to clarify the distinction in use. I'd like see in what context it is used. DCDuring TALK 14:38, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I agree (or disagree, depending on how you look at it) with both of you. I would say that anyone trying to use the term "Native Californian" in the why it's defined would probably be considered wrong, so SoP isn't the issue ("native Californian" seems better), and the term is commonly used to refer to indigenous Californians. At the same time, I find it confusing, or even annoying, when people say "keep" for a bad sense, just because another attestable sense for that word exists. You don't really mean that you want to keep it, you mean "delete-it-but-oh-by-the-way-it-should-be-replace-by-this-meaning." In any case, I have deleted that sense, but oh by the way, I replaced it with EP's, and cites for it. :-) Dmcdevit·t 20:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

The problem is, a lot of admins don't give helpful deletion summaries, so a later reader (potential contributor) coming across a deleted entry is likely to think that we've rejected the sense they're thinking of. If there's not consensus to keep any of the currently defined sense, but there is consensus that the term has a real sense that warrants inclusion but that no one has added (for whatever reason), then I'd either (1) change the def to a {{substub}} or (2) delete the entry with a deletion summary that makes clear the need for a better entry. But either way, thanks for side-stepping that by adding the right sense. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 00:08, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Or maybe not. Someone born in California is a native Californian, but not Native Californian, I suppose. Edited the article using entry on "Native American" as a model. Hekaheka 20:37, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

Grr, I just edit-conflicted you on the article, and the again here. I just put my version of the article in instead of yours; no hard feelings I hope. ;-) Our definitions were essentially the same, I just added citations for the senses. Dmcdevit·t 20:44, 30 April 2008 (UTC)

SoP sense has been deleted. Entry is now beautiful. It never occurred to me that this is what the phrase meant. In the northeastern US the state names aren't used that way. "Native New Yorker" just doesn't seem likely to be what a Native American from the Six Nations (Iroquois) would call themselves.

Does "Native Californian" merit a usage note or something to distinguish it from "native Californian"? DCDuring TALK 01:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

A usage note does seem in order for this entry. I expect that one reason that Native Californian is used, but that the construction is not used for other US states, is that (1) California is highly isolated geographically from surrounding, so indigenous peoples seldom migrated across what later became state borders, (2) there is a highly charged political issue concerning recognition of tribes and their lands in this state, (3) Native Arizonan, Native Oreganian, et.c just aren't as euphonious. --EncycloPetey 21:40, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

This entry is now lacking and misleading. The SoP sense filled the gap between the common meaning of the term and the relatively rare meaning (that we now currently have a definition for.) If the intent was to describe it in a usage note, that never happened. While Hekahaka's observation might be more correct than the common use, most bumper stickers will have the "N" capitalized. Even if pedantically it should be a small "N", it is instead capitalized, normally. Rejecting how the term is commonly used, for the sake of political correctness, seems directly opposite to Wiktionary's purpose. Furthermore, I see only two citations for each of the rare forms, not the requisite three. --Connel MacKenzie 19:24, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

If it makes you feel better, you seem to be wrong: the first few pages of google books:"native californian" and google:"native californian" are almost entirely in the sense we define. (Incidentally, this continues to be true if we ignore the uppercase-N hits.) —Ruakh_TALK 00:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

May 2008

-scribe

Characterized as a suffix. It is not. It is a "combining form", which we do not normally allow as an entry AFAIK. DCDuring TALK 18:12, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete Actually, this is not a combining form nor a suffix (at least in the examples cited). This is simply a Latin verb (scrībō) which is the etymon of a number of English words. Unless someone can find some words which are the result of an English suffix "-scribe" this really needs to go. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:41, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

If it were a combining form, would we keep it? Are you suggesting that this should be an RfV? DCDuring TALK 21:20, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. This combining form has meaning to English speakers; just about every combination-word that I thought to Google, including (deprecated template usage) [http:／www.google.com/search?q=omniscribe omniscribe] and (deprecated template usage) [http:／www.google.com/search?q=retroscribe retroscribe] and (deprecated template usage) [http:／www.google.com/search?q=angloscribe angloscribe], had hits. I couldn't find any that seem to meet CFI; but they suggest to me that (deprecated template usage) -scribe itself might be worth including. (Of course, it would need to be fixed — firstly, to change "suffix" to "combining form", per DCDuring, and secondly, to make clear that the terms in the "Related terms" are just that, and not derived terms, per Atelaes, lest we give readers the wrong idea.) —Ruakh_TALK 23:59, 1 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete. First;y, this isn't a suffix; it's a Latin root word. A suffix is an ending tacked onto a root, not a root itself. Nor is this an English combining root, well, at least not in the examples given. Each of those comes from a Latin source word formed from a preposition + (deprecated template usage) scrībō. That is, the combination was made in Latin, and the resulting combination was then transmitted into English. --EncycloPetey 00:39, 2 May 2008 (UTC)

This feels like the type of entry that should be well understood by English speakers, in which case there may be productive evidence that it has entered the English language. That is, it might be possible to find neologisms that were formed with an understanding of what this combining form means. But you're right that without that, it isn't an English term. DAVilla 05:57, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

have a bathe

Sum of parts. Thryduulf 18:30, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete DCDuring TALK 19:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Semper added have a bathe and have a bath. He wrote that the former means to "immerse oneself in the sea" and the latter "to wash oneself in a bath". If this is correct in whatever dialect, then I'd keep both to illustrate the difference, and use {{see}}. Can someone confirm this distinction?—msh210℠ 17:36, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I would never use "have a bath" to mean "immerse oneself in the sea", and using "have a bathe" to mean "wash ones self in the bath" rather than "have a relaxing soak in a bath" would be unusual ("have a bath" can mean the primary intention is either to get clean or to relax, and neither precludes the other as a side effect) - i.e. one can "bath" only in a bath, but one can "bathe" in either a bath or in the sea (or in any other body of liquid). So, yes there is a distinction, but to me though it is entirely that between the verb "bath" and the verb "bathe". Thryduulf 18:43, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Added content at bathe, including UK noun sense. -- Thisis0 21:17, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

have a bath

Sum of parts. Thryduulf 18:32, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete DCDuring TALK 19:16, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

See my comment above s.v. #have a bathe.—msh210℠ 17:37, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep, this doesn't mean "own a bath". "bath" doesn't even have a verb entry at this time, quite rightly IMO. Kappa 08:48, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

?? If you'll take a quick look at google books:have, you'll notice that (deprecated template usage) have usually doesn't mean "own". Even if you restrict it to google books:"have a", not one of the top ten hits means "own". Also, you seem to believe that in the phrase "have a bath", (deprecated template usage) bath is a verb? If so, then that belief is mistaken; if not, then sorry, but I don't understand what you're trying to say. —Ruakh_TALK 14:40, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

I've just added the verb sense to (deprecated template usage) bath, supported by three citations spanning 17 years. Thryduulf 10:41, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep per fancy dress test. Sounds awkward to Americans. DAVilla 05:48, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

must have killed a Chinaman

Sum of its parts. This not a metaphor or an idiom; it's used literally, if facetiously. --Ptcamn 08:54, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom. Facetious expression of Karma-esque thinking. DCDuring TALK 09:53, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Now has three cites spanning many years. Idiomatic, not SoP.--Dmol 12:02, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

Note that the first cite is a mention.—msh210℠ 17:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I had never doubted that it could be cited. I think it is SoP. One could substitute any bad deed for "killed a Chinaman". The construction "must have (done a bad deed) in (one's) past life" might be an idiom. Is "kill a Chinaman" a synonym for "bad deed"? DCDuring TALK 17:46, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

see this -- Thisis0 18:02, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I was just looking at it. Sigh. It might also be that "kill a Chinaman" meant to "do an inconsequential bad deed". There are plenty of other forms of the Karmic construction, but none seem to have the authority of Macquarie's and Partridge's behind them. Add offensive tag and Keep. DCDuring TALK 18:23, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that in this saying it refers to an "inconsequential bad deed" (as in the unrelated American folktale of Roy Bean [10][11][12]), but rather the opposite. It seems in Australia that "Chinamen" have long had an aura of superstition surrounding them (at least historically), and in this saying, the weight and curse of "killing a Chinaman" is great or enormous like killing a wizard, sage, or fairy. -- Thisis0 22:13, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

I added a few cites to the citations page, good usage ones spanning a while. I read a bunch of (deprecated template usage) kill a Chinaman snippets and only this particular version seemed idiomatic. - [The]DaveRoss 20:27, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep per superstition > SoP. DAVilla 05:46, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I have lived in Australia with this saying for over 50 years, and I have never come across any evidence of a Chinese person offended by it. I'm not saying there are none, but they are not common. Most of them have broader shoulders than that. In any case, it is a real saying used by real people. If someone hears it and wants to know what it means, they need somewhere to find out. Keep it. No citation - just 50 yrs of real life experience with the saying. A real Australian. 23:28, 23 Jul 2008 (UTC)

meeting room

Meaning unexceptionable, that is, SoP. Do we keep it anyway? What is the rationale? Is that really clear in WT:CFI? DCDuring TALK 12:01, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep, if only for the translations section which needs to be written. To my knowledge there is often a more or less fancy compound used to refer to such rooms. -- Gauss 10:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep per dining room. Not sure about rationale. It's just what the place is called. When you're looking for a new apartment, you ask for the leasing office. It doesn't matter if that's what they call it or not, that's still what it is. DAVilla 06:33, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment. I'd call it a conference room. Meeting room sounds slightly stilted, but I knew what it meant. (And that means it's SoP, no?)—msh210℠ 22:34, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

B. splendens

This is illustrative of a type of abbreviation common in botany and zoology. It is a context-dependent abbreviation. The meaning of B. would vary according to what genus was being discussed. I would assume that such entries should be deleted on sight or moved to the spelled-out entry name if it does not already exist. Please advise on any better course of action. DCDuring TALK 16:07, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

• Weak don't know. E. coli should be acceptable though, and several more widely used ones. SemperBlotto 16:12, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

  Thanks for reminding me. I wouldn't have deleted that one - almost no matter what was said here. DCDuring TALK 18:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Agree with SB. There are a few which we should keep. E. coli is one and C. elegans is another, but that's all I can think of. No one says (nor writes) H. sapiens or M. musculus, and Drosophila always just goes by its genus for some reason. I think anything besides the above two should be shot on sight. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:44, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

OK. If I come across any marginal cases, I'll check b.g.c. for use outside of technical literature or bring them here. DCDuring TALK 18:25, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

My experience is that the abbreviations are only used routinely for model organisms whose genus name is long and hard to spell. So, you'll see E. coli and C. elegans instead of Escherichia coli and Caenorhabditis elegans. But each of these is ambiguous, since there is an Entamoeba coli (gut parasite of some note) and Calochortus elegans (a flower). For Drosophila and Arabidopsis, the genus name is used instead. And, as Atelaes has noted, no one bothers to abbreviate Homo or Mus, perhaps because the names are so short anyway. Likewise Zea mays isn't abbreviated.

There is at least one other model organism whose name is regularly abbreviated, and that is S. cereviciae (Saccharomyces cereviciae), or "brewer's yeast". It's abbreviated name deserves an entry as well. --EncycloPetey 19:56, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Disagree with Atelaes. Check each for cites without context and keep. (A valid cite, imo, would be, e.g., a journal article entitled "Bright red B. splendens", even if its text/abstract starts "Betta splendens...".)—msh210℠ 19:20, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, that's the trick. Quite frankly, you could probably cite just about any such abbreviation. That does not mean that anyone except for the twenty or so people working on the species actually understand it. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:16, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I hope I don't correctly understand what you are saying. As I understand it, an implication would be that we should have a sense of "fish" that corresponds to each genus, species, and subspecies of fish for which we could find a use of the word fish that was referring to that type of fish.

This is not idle or facetious. I would expect that I could find a few senses each for "A. palmata", "A. palmatus", "A. palmatum", "B. palmata", etc. I'm certainly not going to cite them myself and would be inclined to RfV each instance. I was trying to make our lives easier, not harder. DCDuring TALK 20:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that the test should be if the abbreviation is used in non-technical publications without expansion on several occasions spanning at least a year; news articles would be good sources of these I suspect. Off the top of my head I'd say that E. coli and C. difficile should have entries, as should the latter's even more abbreviated form C. diff. Thryduulf 20:19, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Semi-relevant newbie question, are the things findable through http://scholar.google.com "durably archived"? Conrad.Irwin 19:29, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

As durably archived as it gets. Now, that's not to say that they necessarily meet CFI; that's a whole nother conversation. But, yes, very durably archived. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 19:52, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We seem to deem them to be. IMHO, the hard part is getting access if not affiliated with a subscribing institution. In practice, I rarely find useful material-in-context from Scholar, much more from b.g.c. DCDuring TALK 20:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

I suppose that, in order to avoid misleading the user, we should include all the possible senses of each abbreviation. Thus, based solely on the woefully incomplete coverage of Wikispecies, we should have at least one sense each for Buchnera, Buchanania, and Beaufortia, as well as for Betta. DCDuring TALK 20:35, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

We run into the problem then of all the taxonomic synonyms, obsolete combinations, and nomina nuda that have ever appeared in publications. This is a door best left closed. Having the entry on Wiktionary would add nothing that couldn't be better handled by a good search on Wikispecies. --EncycloPetey 21:34, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Hear, hear. Or even a search for splendens on Wiktionary. DCDuring TALK 21:42, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

Turkish loanwords from Serbian

jelek; Turkish yelek (vest, waist, waistcoat); originally that word came from Serbo-Slavic obleka (cloth; Gon-bel-Gon basis; i.e. heblek => jeblek = jelek); cf. jagluk from (h)oglavak, a maiden scarf.

kavez; Kavez (Tur. kafese) comes from the Gon-Bel basis; Serbo-Slavic okov (fetter), hvatanje (catch), gvožđe/gvozd (iron), uvezati (fasten); Serbian syntagma "baciti u gvožđa" (to shackle); cf. Serbian gvozd and Hephaistos Ἡφαιστος; Serb. gvožđe (iron) => zvezda (star), gvožđara (iron shop) => zvezdara (the place full of stars) and Gr. εσεσιδηρωτο (overlaid with iron), also Gr. σεσιδηρω-μενοι; Lat. sidereus starry).

kašika; Turkish kaşık (spoon) is not Turkish inherited word. Serbo-Slavic kašika (spoon) is clearly related to the verb 'kvašenje' (wetting, soaking) and to the Serbo-Slavic word 'kaša' (soup; from kvašenica). It is the reason why we have the forms kašika and kovšika (Russ. ковшик) as Slavic spoon).

jastuk; Turkish yastık (Turkmen ÿassyk) could be compared to OE hassuc (coarse grass); maybe it is related to English husk (Serb. ljuska). Nevertheless, there is a more reliable possibility that Serbian jastuk (pillow) is derived from the verb uzdignuti (lift up) or 'istaknuti' (jut, prominent, protrude) and we all know that jastuk (pillow) is a part of bed that is bulged out from the bed surface.

dusek; The Russian word подушка/poduška (pillow) explains the Serbo-Slavic word dušek (mattress), because poduška is derived from Serbo-Salvic podloga (substratum, pillow, background, backing, bedding, basis, floor, bottom), Serb. podloška (pillow, groundwork, pad, bed); it means that 'dušek' (mattress) is an apheresis of the Serb-Slavic word 'po-dloška' (bed). Turkish döşek (bed, mattress) is a clear-cut borrowing from Serbo-Slavic.

butina; Butina (thigh) is also related to above-mentioned Serbo-Salvic podloga (base); the same compund word from which English foot and leg were derived; cf. Ice. fótleggur.

kobasica; Kobasica appeared be related to Sanskrit gopas (shepherd), but it came from the above-mentioned Serbian okov (fetter) and verbs okivati (shackle, band) and očuvati (keep, preserve, beware). Logically, nothing can be preserved if it is not "fettered" or "fastned" or put into a shackles (cage); therefrom, kobasica is a food that can be preserved from decaying for a long period (shepherd's food); cf. Serbian čoban (shepherd), čuvanje (keeping), okivanje (shackling).

odaja; Turkish oda (room; Turkmen otag) is probably related to Serbian odaja (room); but Serbian odaja is just one of the forms of the words as odeljenje (section, department; cf. Ger. Teil, Eng. deal) or odeljak (Ger. Abteil); from the Serbo-Slavic deliti (devide, separate).

vampir; Vampir (vampire) is the only word that allegedly was borrowed from Serbian although that word seems to be more related to Latin vapor (steam); yes, it could also come from Serbo-Slavic upariti (to steam; para steam); cf. Old Russian упирь (vampire); here it would be interesting to mention that English spirit (from Lat. spiritus soul) sounds almost the same as Serbian ispariti (steam out) and ispiriti (to exhale, expire!!).

kutija; Serbian kutija (box) is related to Serbian words kut (ugao), ćošak (ugao), kocka (cube; cf. Serb. ćoškast = kockast /cubelike/), kuća (house).

leš; Leš (corpse) is probably related to Serbian verb 'ležati' (lie down); cf. Serb. syntagma "leži mrtav" (he lies dead)

kovrdžav; Kovrdža (curl) comes from kvrga (bump, nub), kvržica (a small nub), kurgan; cf. Serb. kvrgast knotty (from krug /circle/); opposite to kvrga is jaruga/jarak (ditch, furrow, harrow, Lat. corrugo -are).

čelik; Čelik (steel; kako se kalio čelik; Ostrovsky's novel "How the Steel Was Tempered"); from Serbo-Slavic kaliti (to steel; Russ. за-каляю); Czech ocel (steel); Serb. očeličiti (to steel, harden); okaliti/ prekaliti (harden, steel).

budala; Budala (fool); metathesis from Serbian poludeti (mad, madden, craze), bludeti (wanton); bludeo - poludeo - budala; hence the Serbian adverb podlo (meanly); podlost (baseness).

kapija; Kapija (gate) is from Serbian poklopac (cover, lid), oklapati, za- klapati (to cover, close); Serb. "za-klopi kapiju" (close the gate!; oklop /shell/ => klapija => kapija).

sapun; Sapun (soap); related to Serbian 'sipanje' (pour) and za-peniti (to foam); cf. Serb. sapunati (to soap).

barut; Barut (gunpowder); from Serbo-Slavic prah/porah (dust; Russ. порох); from Serb. prsnuti (burst, break, explode, spray; Lat. aspergo spray); cf. Serb. brašno (flour; Ukr. борошно), Russ. порошок; Arabic barud; Greek πυρίτιδα, μπαρούτι; Aramaic b@rwt, ˁaprā dust; Akkadian eperu (dust; cf. Serbian pra' dust, gunpowder). According to Xurbelanum HSF formula the basis of all the above words is Bel-Hor-Gon (Latin pulvereus!)

džep; Džep (pocket; Arabic jaib); also gajba (cage); cf. Serb. kavez; Ita. gabbia (cage); from the Gon-Bel basis, kibla, kabal, kabao, kofa; from Serbian kupilo (bucket, cupel), okupljati (to gather together); English gap

sat; Sat (Turkish saat; Turkmen sagat; Hebrew sha`ah /hour/)... Aramaic šāˁtā (moment of time) could be compared to the Serbian adverb 'sada' (now); Serb. vreme sadašnje (present tense); Russ. сегодня/ sevodnya (today); South-Serbian секогаш/sekogaš (ever, forever); svaki all, ever; zauvek forever; Latin secunda... I hope, now you are able to understand that the word sat (hour) is a clear cut IE word that cannot be explained neither in Turkish nor Semitic languages.

dželat; Dželat (executioner; Turkish cellat); cf. gallows; OE galga is related to Serbian kolac (pole; cf. Turkish golcü executioner); In this case, dželat (executioner) is the Turkish loanword in Serbian but this word originally started from Serbian 'kolac' (pole, pale). We all know that impaling was the most favorite punishment in Dark Ages. Serb. kolac (pole) => Tur. golcü (executioner) => cellat/dželat (executioner).

tavan; Turkish tavan (ceiling) and Serbian tavan (attic, loft) are very imteresting words because they seem to be related to Serbian adjective 'tavno/tavan' (dark); Aramaic ṭellālā (shade, ceiling; Arabic zallal dark) might be in connection with Serbian/Turkish/Arabic tavan. Serbo- Slavic tamno (Russ. темный/temniy; Czech temný, tma, tajemný, tmavý, temno; Serb. tmina darkness, po-tamnilo darkened) is derived from Gon- Bel-Gon basis similar to the other Serbian words as dubina (deepness), tamnica/tavnica (prison, jail). In case of the Serbian words tavan/ taman (dark) the b=>m sound change is clearly visible. Serbian tavan (loft) and tavanica (ceiling) are clearly related to Serbian tavnica/ tamnica (prison, jail). In reality, ancient man realized that as you go deeper (Serbian dubina) under the ground the environment is getting more and more dark (Serb. tavno/tamno); it means that prison is a dark space as well as it is the space above the ceiling - Serb. tavan (loft, attic).

Finally, if we compare English ceiling and cellar/cell (German Keller basement; from Latin celare con-cealing covering, hiding) we will be able to understand the logic of the development of Serbo-Slavic words tavan (loft), tavanica, tavnica (ceiling), tavnica/tamnica (prison) and tavan/taman (dark; tmina darkness).

Ko je ovaj moj tekst prosledio ovde? Slučajno naleteh. Imam utisak da neko o tome raspravlja kao da je on autor tog teksta. U svakom slučaju, hteo bih to da raščistim. Zar se ovde može postirati i inkognito?

Who posted this article? I have impression that this guy is pretending to be me. Weird, isn't it?

Dušan Vukotić

Ha, now I see. Everyone can write/post here whatever he likes. Wonderful!

Or you are pretending to be him, or both of you are pretending to be someone else, or you are the same person operating an anonymous sock puppet. Regardless, all edits are logged in the page history, so it is possible to verify which account was used to make any given edit. --EncycloPetey 22:00, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

Why would I be pretending to be someone else? I found this web page a few days ago and I was surprized seing that my name has been mentioned here as if I was a regular Wiki visitor/contributor! Yesterday I registered myself as - Vukotic; I thought (wrongly, of course) it would be necessary...

All of these words have been wrongly placed as having a Turkish origin. Could you please provide the correct etymology for a change for both the Slavic and the Turkish words - which is unmistakably Slavic.

Thank you.

I reverted your edits- I don't know anything about Slavic languages, but I figured that it should be discussed before deleting it. Nadando 03:40, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

You have shown some word similarities, but that does not demonstrate the direction of the borrowing. If there are similar words in two languages, that does not tell us which was the originating language. Appealing to German, Arabic, and Latin does not demonstrate a Slavic origin either. --EncycloPetey 03:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

These are not similarities but rather explanations of the origin of the words in question and to other words they are related. By giving you German and Latin cognates I am providing you with further proof that they are part of the Indo-European language family which proves that they aren't derived from a Turkish word as Turkish isn't an IE language. Also all of these words cannot be explained using any of the words in the Turkish vocabulary.

But Arabic and Aramaic are not Indo-European; they are Semitic languages. I repeat: you have listed some words you think are similar; other people may disagree that they are similar, especially since in several cases the meaning is quite different between the supposedly related words. Etymology is not based on similarity. It is based on change through time. You must demonstrate that each word existed in Serbian before it existed in Turkish. At the least you must cite a reliable source. --EncycloPetey 04:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Are you familiar with any of the Slavic languages? If you are you would clearly see the relation of the words. They are related and thus of the same origin; leš comes from lež[ati]. It's absurd to even question the relation of these words. I don't think that whoever has placed these words as Turkish ('kašika' for example) has provided any proof of any kind as to how it is a Turkish word. All of the examples are clearly cognates to words I have provided. I don't have the time nor the patience to give you a linguistics lecture here. If this site is supposed to help people and provide them with factual information than its clearly far from it. Max Vasmer provides proof on this.

You asked if I was familiar with them, then seem to assume I am not. I have studied some Croatian, Polish, and Czech. I have regularly used medieval Polish records in doing research. I have also done the same for Hungarian, so I am well-aware of the interchange of words between languages in the Balkans. You need not give a linguistics lecture, since your knowledge of comparative linguistics seems dated. It is clear you are only interested in pushing your point of view through handwaving arguments. --EncycloPetey 05:07, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

Gon-bel-Gon :))) ? Oh dear, it's Dušan Vukotić with his brain-damaged "human speech formula" theories. Here is his blog which illuminates some of his naive semantic correspondence theories, and also you might wanna look him up on sci.lang where he's been getting on people's nerves for months (usually he's being ignored/mocked). Just block him the next time he comes reversing widely accepted etymologies and starts to provide his "theories"; discussing with him is pointless waste of time.

(_{PS, for those interested, his "Gon-Bel-Gon" theory is that all of IE is somehow derivable from about four syllables, two of which are BEL and GON. It's a bizarre mixture of mysticism, unsystematic and very vague sound similarities, and free association of ideas. You can get an idea from these posts: [13] (yes, that's cybalist!) [14]}) --Ivan Štambuk 06:51, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

This is ridiculous. To the ip user, please do not remove etymologies already in place as you clearly do not know what youre doing. Thanks for the info Ivan. --Dijan 10:20, 11 May 2008 (UTC)

꿈을

Noun + particle. We're still down on these, right? -- Visviva 12:07, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

We keep declined forms in other languages. I say keep. —Stephen 14:59, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

But as I'm sure you know, nouns don't technically decline in Korean, any more than they do in Japanese; they simply take a range of particles. Just as English has no possessive case, Korean has no accusative case. -- Visviva 15:39, 13 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete if I understand correctly that the particle attaches to a noun phrase or other nominal, and not necessarily to an individual noun. (Otherwise no vote: I see no obvious benefit to such entries, but no obvious harm in them, either, and am happy to let y'all sort it out at Wiktionary:About Korean.) —Ruakh_TALK 00:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Japanese, like Chinese, Thai, and Khmer, does not use word spaces, so it is debatable whether the postpositions and particles are suffixes or separate words. Most authorities treat them as separate words. In Korean, they are suffixes, exactly like the case endings in Turkish, Mongolian, and Finnish. If it were not for the traditional parsing of Japanese as noun+postposition, these Korean words would probably be considered noun cases. And while having terms such as 꿈을 does no harm, on the other hand they are useful because they yield a useful result when you search for them. If you don’t know Korean and search for 꿈을, and if the only entries are for 꿈 and 을, you would not know what the word meant. —Stephen 15:27, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

This last is a valid point; I've been vaguely thinking that we should have a standard usage note (or sidebar, or something) that notes the more frequent (and semi-irregular) particles, so that the 꿈 entry would also appear prominently in searches for 꿈이, 꿈을, 꿈과, etc. On the one hand, AFAIK Korean grammarians are unanimous in regarding particles (조사) as separate words. The standard South Korean orthography (한글맞춤법) specifically notes particles as an exception to the principle of words being separated by spaces. Samuel Elmo Martin and others even write them as separate words; thus in Yale, this would be transliterated as kkwum ul. So for us to treat something like 꿈을 as a word would be a serious exercise in OR. On the other hand, our target audience cannot be assumed to be familiar with the finer points of Korean grammar, so a templated usage note seems to me like the best approach. -- Visviva 09:45, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete. We treat Korean particles as separate words, consistent with standard Korean grammar, so this is just a multiple word phrase with no linguistic value beyond the sum of its parts. Rod (A. Smith) 20:21, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I hate you people. If it looks like a word it should be treated like a word. It's just mean to say "Oh sorry, technically it's not one word according to standard Korean grammar, come back to wiktionary after you've learned it". It's even worse than screwing people on English possessives, at least the 's gives a visual clue. Kappa 10:19, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

It's bad to be mean, but it's also bad to be wrong. Ideally we can find a way to be neither. To this end, I've created {{ko-usage-particles}} and added it to 꿈. Does this address your concerns?

FWIW, I was once of the same opinion regarding the major Korean particles (see the early revisions of Template:ko-noun), but was eventually persuaded of the error of my ways. -- Visviva 10:24, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

A search for 꿈을 only finds that page, it does not find the 꿈 page. The only way to get to 꿈 from "꿈을", if 꿈을 is deleted, is if you know enough about Korean and Korean grammar to try dropping the last syllable when searching. This puts Korean generally out of reach to most Americans. —Stephen 00:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Here's my input. As someone who knows nothing about Korean, I have to say that the difference between 꿈을 and 꿈, or rather the lack thereof, is thoroughly confusing. When does one use a particle, and when not? How many particles are there, and how many attach to this word? (Abstain of course.) DAVilla 05:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Jesuses

Note: see also Wiktionary:Votes/pl-2008-06/Plurals of proper nouns.

OK User:EncycloPetey is pulling all kinds of bullshit excuses to try to keep this deleted without discussion. If the community intends to screw over its readership let's have some real debate to show them. Kappa 23:17, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you look at my talk page, you'll see there was discussion. It is you who insisted on overturning a deletion without discussion or indeed even looking at the discussion that had happened. Your attitude and language are very unbecoming. Please play nice. I have started a formal discussion below. --EncycloPetey 23:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

OK I'm sorry I didn't realize you were having a secret discussion, perhaps because it wasn't advertised. Kappa 23:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

This is a WIKI. Discussions posted on pages are not secret. The problem is that you didn't look, jumped to conclusions, and proceded to make accusations and use profanity. At what point in this process did I cause you to go astray? --EncycloPetey 23:40, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

... where was I supposed to look? Kappa 23:43, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

If you knew I deleted it, then why not see my talk page? --EncycloPetey 23:48, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

I have waited on this to let my anger subside. Why was it OK to delete this outside of RfD/RfV? I do not believe that a discussion which someone is supposed to find if they happen to notice the deletion is in any way a substitute for the public one. DCDuring TALK 19:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Administrators have to do this all the time. Not everything which is deleted is brought to rfv/d, nor could it be. If it were, the pages would cease to function, being overwhelmed with junk. People who make a habit of patrolling (as EP does), have to rely on their own judgment to decide what is obvious crap and what is more controversial. There are many difficult decisions, but a good general rule is that if a word is in someway contrary to general convention (as Jesuses is), then it can be deleted on sight. Inclusion of this entry requires a large-scale change to how we do proper nouns on Wiktionary. I'm fairly ambivalent as to what happens, but it's certainly a change. EP was completely in the right on this one. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:05, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I know. I delete items that fall within the various categories that we have for expeditious deletion. Anything that I think might be controversial I put on RfV/RfD. I try to not substitute my own prejudices and preferences no matter how superior they may be by dint of my credentials, training, experience, and expertise. I strongly disagree that "someway contrary to general convention" is adequate if it leads to this result. Obviously we have numerous problems with conflict among rules. Our "unwritten rules" ought to have little force. If we cannot write a specific rule that gains community acceptance, then there is no community acceptance and more general rules, principles and process apply. An entry such as this that can be readily cited and is a word but conflicts with some "unwritten rule" which contradicts the capabilities of the applicable template (pl parameter) and WT:CFI. It is precisely because the judgment of even our most veteran contributors is not to be trusted that we need to respect the process. The substitution of insider judgment for a more transparent process is what puts Wiktionary in a questionable position in its handling of newbie contributions. DCDuring TALK 20:51, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If we do not allow our veteran contributors to use their judgment, then patrolling becomes an impossible task. It is not perfect, as we often like to overturn previous conventions, but it is the best method we've got so far. For every deleted entry that perhaps should have been left, a hundred that should not waste the community's time get deleted (without wasting the community's time). Without the judgment of veteran contributors, we become Urban Dictionary. I think it a bad idea to criticize an admin for engaging in the difficult and arduous task of patrolling, and failing to conceive of every possible consideration for an entry. If we want to keep edits patrolled, we need to be a bit more forgiving of those rare individuals who actually do so (like EP and SB). Because I'll be honest, I hate patrolling, and while I force myself to do it on occasion, I certainly don't do enough of it to keep our incoming edits under control. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:11, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Indulging one's prejudices should not be a reward for patrolling. Frankly, I believe that letting a few arguable cases through is not a waste of time for those who do not patrol. I believe that I have detected a greater tendency to submit some such cases to RfD/RfV and I appreciate that. DCDuring TALK 22:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

For the record, there are no rewards for patrolling, only aches and pains. --EncycloPetey 23:30, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Like this, I assume. Patrolling is just supposed to keep the vandals under control, not necessarily enforce unenforceably complex rules. DCDuring TALK 23:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Patrolling is supposed to make Wiktionary better. Mostly it does consist of deleting ten "Haha, lolzzZZZ" pages in a row, sometimes in consist of purging protologisms, blatant or otherwise, other times it is just a case of keeping things neat and tidy. Anyone has the right to act to improve Wiktionary. If there is no community decision on an issue, then anyone can make up the rules as they go along (otherwise we'd be overwhelmed with borderline cases). If people disagree with your decisions then the rules come under discussion and get changed, otherwise the made up rules get adopted by others and a consensus is formed. You may disagree with people's decision (that's fine, if everyone agrees then boredom ensues) but you have to give everyone the chance to decide for themselves. Conrad.Irwin 00:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

OK there seems to be support for the idea that borderline, controversial cases should be deleted without public discussion instead of brought to a forum such as this one. I would like it explained to me (1) why someone on the receiving end of this kind of behavior would not simply leave the project or become a vandal. Why would this not be an entirely appropriate response? and (2) why should the rest of the community not get a chance to voice their opinion? Kappa 18:00, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Not at all, borderline cases should be brought for discussion. The problem lies in distinguishing borderline from not-borderline. i.e. the borderline borderline cases. (1) If they disagree they can (and, from experience, do) ask about it. (2) The rest of the community does get the chance to voice their opinion, hence this extensive discussion. As our patrollers in general do a very good job, for no reward except being moaned at by disgruntled spammers, or picked on by outraged Wiktionarians, I don't think there is any problem in the way things are done. Yes, people have different opinions; No, that isn't a problem. Conrad.Irwin 18:20, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

AEL Jesuses

---

You can say "There were two Julius Caesars, a public Julius Caesar and a private Julius Caesar." When you do this, you "split" the proper noun into two common noun aspects. This means that you are no longer using a proper noun, so the grammar of a proper noun is gone. Normally, a proper noun like Julius Caesar cannot take an article like (deprecated template usage) a, but you can see in the hypothetical situation above, the indefinite article is used. This phenomenon applies to all proper nouns (except those that have an inherently plural form like Alps). The examples I listed above all return citations from Google Books: "A student of Ireland can find three different Irelands..."[15]; "The Three Romes"[16]; etc.

I propose we forbid all "plurals" of proper nouns. This includes "plurals" of countries like Englands, Irelands, Chinas; of cities like Romes, Berlins, Londons; of personal names like Jorges, Anitas, Pauls; and all other such "plurals". I feel the arguments run along the same lines as those we used to forbid the inclusion of all the possessives. Including these should not be allowed any more than the possessive forms, which we specifically voted to exclude.

The alternative is madness. For every Proper noun, we would have a new common Noun section with a definition like this: Rome - Any hypothetical aspect of the city of Rome, whether regional, historical, or cultural. Does the commmunity would want to add a whole section under a Noun header to each and every English Proper noun in the language? --EncycloPetey 23:29, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

We do it for all plural forms of all other nouns, why make an exception for proper nouns? Conrad.Irwin 23:31, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Re-read the discussion above. (1) Proper nouns don't have plurals. (2) Every singular of these "plurals" will have identical definitions. (3) See the discussion on excluding possessives. For (3), note especially the comments about how the -'s attaches to a phrase, which is true of the "plurals" of proper nouns as well. (e.g. Trinidad and Tobagos) --EncycloPetey 23:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

You might as well say it's madness to include plurals of common nouns! Personally it's never been my understanding of proper nouns that they cannot have plural forms. But even if that is the case, that is a problem with our classification system rather than with the words themselves. Manifestly, Jesuses and other similar plurals are in use, and therefore clearly we should have entries for them if they are attested. Why on earth not? All the entries need is a simple {{plural of}}. Widsith 23:35, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Proper nouns don't have plurals; only the common noun aspect of a proper noun has a plural. The plural is never a proper noun because it is not a name but a class. Further, all the possessives would need is a "possessive of", right? Yet, we voted to eclude those; we should do the same here. --EncycloPetey 23:36, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The word exists. Whether you call it proper or common is neither here nor there. Widsith 23:38, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The problem is that it is both here and there. If we have entries all over Wiktionary identifying words as "plural of" something else, and the something else is marked as a different part of speech, the general internet community will think we're nuts (OK, they probably think that already, but why add fuel to the fire). If we add these "plurals", then logically we also need to go through and add all the common Noun snese of these words. Consider: "There's not a London like that anymore." We don't have an entry with a definition that will fit this sentence, because we don't deal in the common noun aspect of Proper nouns. All proper nouns have such an aspect, and it's part of standard English grammar that they can be used hypothetically like this. Any entry and definition would have to have extensive Usage notes and examples to keep people from becoming hopelessly confused.

Further, lots of words exist that we exclude. Existence of a word does not mean we will include it. We exclude protologisms, possessives, many brand names, names of specific individuals, and many more besides. --EncycloPetey 23:41, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

Prolotogisms aren't words. The justification for deleting English possessives is that they are not actually words, but words plus a clitic. We have a test for whether or not a brand name can be considered part of the language. Kappa 23:47, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

The thread of this particular line is that we do exclude some words. Can you agree that existence of a word is not automatic cause for inclusion? That is the point I was making just above.

If you note in the other thread above, the "plurals" of proper nouns are formed exactly as the possessives. A suffix is added to a complete phrase functioning as a proper noun. --EncycloPetey 23:49, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

suffix != clitic. Thryduulf 00:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Wiktionary aims to be descriptive not prescriptive, so why not just say that proper nouns can be used uncountably to describe a specific person, place or thing, or countably in the singular or plural to describe aspects of a specific person, place or thing or multiple specific people, places or things with the same name? Why must we be hidebound by traditional grammars if they do not describe what we observe? Thryduulf 00:33, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Because that would be misleading rather than descriptive. "Proper noun" implies a number of grammatical properties of a word. The "plural" of a proper noun never exhibits those properties; it exibits the properties of a common noun. More importantly, the singular of that plural is also a common noun. If I say "The apostles of Christ included two Jameses, I do not mean that there were two "male given names". I mean there were two "people bearing the name James". This is akin to the use-mention distinction. When James is used to refer to a specific individual, it is a proper noun. However, when it refers not to a specific individual, but to one of a class of such items, then it is a common noun, as in: "Is there a James here?" Notice that in this example, we have an indefinite article preceding the word James, which is contrary to use as a proper noun. It also does not refer to a specific individual, but one of a class, much as: "Is there a doctor here?" If we include the "plurals" of proper nouns, then we have to include, for every given name, the common noun sense of "an individual bearing this name". --EncycloPetey 00:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Are we really sure that we want an across-the-board prohibition? Also, would we not want to provide some indication of how a plural might be formed for an entry we call a "Proper noun", especially if it is not by mere addition of "s". For surnames, for example, the plural is very natural and common: "Let's invite the Smiths over for dinner." How would you say that for the "Jones" or "Johns" family? Because we do not have a very effective and accessible presentation of the grammatical "rules" of English, I don't really see how we can rely on those "rules" to make up for entries that are not present or information not present in the entries. It is not as if all grammar texts have identical definitions of "proper nouns". It is even less likely that the senses in the entries we have characterized as "Proper noun" would really meet many of the definitions of "Proper noun". DCDuring TALK 00:39, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

We went through this same discussion for the possessives and decided not to include them. I have begun an appendix explaining grammar of English proper nouns, but it will need much more work before it is complete. I have not had a suitably long block of time to focus on writing it, since, as you have noted, it is a difficult topic and most grammars I've examined casually skim over the subject without addressing it. --EncycloPetey 00:41, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I gotta say EP, that's pretty phat. I look forward to seeing it in the appendix namespace. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I think something which should be borne in mind here is the frequency. Common nouns are commonly used in the plural, while proper nouns are only rarely used in plural, and in an obscure function. I see zero difference between this and the possessive forms. It is still a bound morpheme attached by normal rules. You can argue 'til you're blue in the face that this is a clitic or whatever, but it's still a suffix of some type which attaches to nouns (and phrases) in a determined fashion. Now, I don't have much of a problem with including possessive forms, nor do I have a problem with including these common plural forms of proper nouns. However, as EP duly notes, this is a lot of work for little gain. Also, I think that each such form should be subject to rfv, as it is an odd form. Additionally, DCDuring makes an excellent point that we lack good grammar appendices, certainly a current shortcoming of our project. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 00:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Comment. EP raises good points, but I'm not convinced. Since indeed every proper noun can be used as a common noun, I don't think it's necessary to include a separate "Noun" section at every proper-noun entry, because an English-speaking reader will see the "Proper noun" section and know what do make of it; however, plurals are different, since you can't visit [[Chinas]] and see a "Proper noun" section. However, I'm not going to vote "keep", because I think that neither (deprecated template usage) Jesus nor (deprecated template usage) Jesuses meets WT:CFI#Names, and while I don't really mind making a few exceptions, I certainly won't vote to. —Ruakh_TALK 02:45, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The word obviously exists. We aim to include ALL words. Therefore we should keep it. I notice the in Mary, for example, it is defined as a Proper noun, then {{en-noun}} is used to generate the headword. That seems a reasonable compromise to me. SemperBlotto 06:57, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

So, you want to label it on the entry as a "Poper noun", but categorize it as a common noun? Or are you proposing dual categorization for every proper noun? --EncycloPetey 13:40, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

The last time I looked {{en-proper noun}} allowed a pl= parameter. DCDuring TALK 18:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

It also allows uncountable, but I cannot think of a single Proper noun that is uncountable. For the typical proper noun, the count is "one". --EncycloPetey 21:44, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

delete - and writing a grammar appendix is a very good idea. Hekaheka 17:22, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

keep as it is commonly used in such usages as "The square in front of the shrine had many vendors selling plastic Jesuses." not so rare, as can be seen from this b.g.c. search. I also agree with Ruakh's point about the need to maintain access via entry of the plural.

Also:

The plural needs to be indicated in the lemma entry.

Further, I would suggest that the RfV process is the means for removing spurious plurals, when as and if they occur.

Most of the "rare" plural forms of proper nouns are much less rare than many of our other entries, including many not marked with rare tags.

The existence of rules that we can effectively render comprehensible and accessible for our normal users, which would truly substitute for the plural entries, has not been established. DCDuring TALK 18:37, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Simplest would be to apply the normal CFI, three independent durably archived citations spanning three years. Jesuses meets this trivially, as do many people's names. Some town and city names do not meet this, and it seems dependent on the size of such places - seems to me to be a reasonable metric. Conrad.Irwin 18:43, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

If we apply "the normal CFI", as you call them, to (deprecated template usage) Jesuses, but the actual CFI to (deprecated template usage) Jesus, then we'd keep only the former. Are you sure that's a good idea? —Ruakh_TALK 19:16, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

As I haven't read through the CFI in a long time, I just remember the "three independent durably archived three year-spanning cites", If we are looking for that then there is no question that Jesuses would be includable (see google books). But, if there's something else that I've forgotten please correct me. Conrad.Irwin 19:24, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps we should also be considering uncountable nouns like alfalfa. These follow a similar pattern, whereby they normally do not take a plural, but can in certain contexts. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:48, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

One of my personal hobby horses is uncountability. "alfalfas" would be readily attestable in agricultural literature. DCDuring TALK 22:46, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, definitely. I wasn't saying anything to the contrary. However, we really ought to come up with a nice way of noting such things. Because nearly every common noun could have a sense of "a type of xxxx", and yet it seems a bit redundant to note that in every single definition, just as it seems kind of dumb to include an abstract common noun sense for each and every single proper noun. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 22:50, 15 May 2008 (UTC)

I wonder whether the default views of Wiktionary for non-registered users shouldn't have with all kinds of grammar lessons and extensive display of the obvious through templated text and links. Registered users should get a choice of views that reflect what they think they know. Adepts could get a more fine-grained choice like WT:PREFS. Getting rid of the obvious would be a reward for registering and signing in. I don't know what the software prospects are for that degree of control, but a good number of our presentation concerns derive from the broad range of capabilities of our users. I don't entirely believe that Simple is going to fully address the needs of a very broad range of users, as useful as their efforts seem to be. If we had some sense for the realistic time-frame for that degree of customization, we could resolve many of these disputes much more easily. If there is no time-frame, then the disputes are essentially about who the target user is and what capabilities we can assume, all in the absence of any real facts. The current situation gives personal tastes of contributors excessive weight relative to the needs of users. I don't know to what extent this leads us to have something like 1/60th the visits that WP has, but I'd be surprised if it didn't make a contribution. DCDuring TALK 00:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

• Just a couple of extra comments for this already huge debate. 1 – Users shouldn't be expected to know that "proper nouns can't have plurals" – they see a word like this, they're entitled to look it up. How we classify it is our own, secondary, problem. 2 – I totally understand EP's position and I take the point about similarity with possessives. For me the simple difference is that the apostrophe in possessives makes it more obvious that we are dealing with two distinct lexemes, whereas with plurals there's no obvious clue. However, if it came to it I'd rather keep both than exclude this. 3 – Even if in general such plurals are discouraged, arguably Jesuses (and some others) is a special case, because "Jesus" = "artistic representation of Jesus" is so incredibly common in art contexts. Widsith 09:33, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

AEL Jesuses again

• Keep with full support for each comment of Widsith right above. --Gauss 10:07, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Admirably said Widsith, but the question remains: How do we format it? Do we make {{en-proper noun}} identical to {{en-noun}}, so that all proper nouns have plurals? Cuz that seems at least a little silly (but perhaps necessary). Do proper nouns only get plurals on a case by case basis? The burden is really on those in support to figure out how this will work, because hasn't anyone thought that it might be just a bit misleading to our readers if our proper nouns have plurals? Cuz proper nouns don't have plurals......largely. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 14:28, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Seems clear that these should not be linked from the PN inflection line (though I expect that at some point we will need to hash out more thoroughly whether names are always PNs or not). If they exist, they should either be one-way links (Jesuses -> Jesus but not vice versa), or linked only from a usage note in the lemma entry. -- Visviva 14:45, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I disagree with Visviva on this. There are cases where knowing how to form the plural of an item we present as a proper noun is useful. The cases include all of those that form the plural other than by adding "-s" or "-es" or where it is not 100% obvious whether -s or -es is correct and taxons and other words (where Latin or non-English rules apply). It might also be useful to indicate whether (or when) a proper noun takes a plural verb (eg, mountain ranges). To me it seems that how to form a plural is a dictionary question and whether one should use a plural is a question of grammar. Grammar has not been our strong suit and, evidently, does not fit very well into our entry structure. Perhaps we ought to use our entry structure to do well what it can do and not try to make it do what it is not especially well suited to do.

As to Atelaes' question, frankly, the print-dictionary approach (inserting a "-s" or "-es" after nouns that form plurals simply and only spelling out plurals that are "irregular" or where there are alternative forms) devotes about the right amount of space to the task. I also see no reason to show red-links for missing plurals, though blue links for plurals that are entries can show that there might be more to be learned from the plural entry. DCDuring TALK 17:14, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

Ugh, this section is getting too long. I have to scroll up for a half hour just to find an edit button. Anyway, I absolutely agree with Visviva. While some of these plurals might not be a bad idea to have, if we have them, they should be linked to from the lemma in a usage note, or not at all. Anything else would be, in my opinion, misleading to our readers. As to the regularity of pluralization......I don't know if that is really relevant. We certainly don't make a distinction between regular and irregular plurals in our common nouns. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 17:27, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I guess if our users don't know how to form a plural of a proper noun, we shouldn't tell them because they might use plurals more often than we think they should.

We certainly waste our users' attention with red-linked, spelled-out regular plurals for our ordinary nouns. DCDuring TALK 17:35, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to assume from the apparent tone of the above response that it was intended to be facetious. So, the reason we're saying that the "plural" of the Proper noun should not be linked from the Proper noun inflection line, is that it's not actually a plural of the Proper noun. Rather, Jesuses is a plural of a common noun definition of Jesus. If we link the "plural" from the inflection line, it will positively mislead our readers. Think of it this way: we don't list adverb "forms" of verbs on the Verb inflection line; we don't like hyphenated adjective forms of compound nouns on the Noun inflection line; and so on. When the part of speech is different, because of different grammar, we create a new section or even a new entry (in cases where the spelling is different). Logically then, we shouldn't like to a plural common noun from a proper noun section's inflection line. --EncycloPetey 17:46, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

The first comment was facetious, but it reflected my reading of the direction of the discussion. The second comment on redlinked plurals was not facetious at all.

I had not appreciated until this extended discussion why it is that most dictionaries don't have proper nouns as entries (excepting taxonomic names and abbreviations of proper nouns). Their presentation is almost inconsistent with the manner of presentation of other kinds of words. Part of the problem I have been having is with denigrating the common-noun use of the entries we label as proper nouns. Then, by assumption, we don't need to bother with plurals. I think even the most obtuse of our users would not mistakenly pluralize a word we present as a proper noun, used as such. But a user might want to know how to refer to the Joneses (or is that Jones or Jones's) in writing or whether (or when) it should be "the Andes is" or "the Andes are". If calling something a proper noun leads to us being unable to present useful information, then we should not call it a proper noun. Perhaps it would be better to call them nouns and limit the label proper noun to the senses that are the true proper noun senses (or, less plausibly, show the plural only at the common-noun senses). If I thought that users would find such information in usage notes when our entry layout has trained them to look a the inflection line for a plural, then I could simply have accepted that suggestion without further discussion. I would be disappointed if we could not address this kind of usage question consistent with our overall manner of presentation. DCDuring TALK 18:47, 16 May 2008 (UTC)

As I read this discussion, there seems to be - at least partly - an issue on how to format the Proper Nouns such that the reader gets the information that *plural can exist, but *only exist in very few cases. The template {{en-proper noun}} has already been mentioned: thus I wonder why it doesn't include a "plural" point with the explicit remark "for use as common noun only" (or better formulated)? The plural entries could have a "Noun" header, and the inflection template explains to the user why the PoS's (PoS'es?) seem to differ. I have, however, no comment on whether they *should* be given or not... Just that the issue IMHO *could* be solved. \Mike 18:50, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

That seems reasonable enough. Perhaps we could work a link in there to an explanation of what's happening, when and why proper nouns have plurals, etc. I could live with that, as long as there's a note of caution screaming at the user, I have no qualms about putting it into the inflection line. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:58, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Pending the arrival of the Perfect Solution, that seems like a good approach. Something brief like (rarely plural), with "rarely" a bluelink to a appropriate section in the Proper Nouns appendix, one of the much-anticipated magnum opi from EP. If that is too terse, the (plural for common noun only), with "common noun" bluelinked to the same (not to common noun) would be OK. Perhaps a "plc=" parameter to optionally generate the text on provision of the plural form. DCDuring TALK 19:31, 17 May 2008 (UTC)

Something like this sounds great imo.—msh210℠ 17:33, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Delete. --Connel MacKenzie 10:12, 18 May 2008 (UTC)

Keep Obviously, this is a no-brainer. It's the plural of a non-proper noun word "Jesus" which can be seen for example in the lyrics of Depeche Mode's "Personal Jesus", or in numerous examples listed above. I've gone ahead and added this to the Jesus entry. I got too restless to cite the artistic representation sense, someone else cite that. Language Lover 21:47, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - at least two pertinent senses. People named "Jesus" (of which there are many) and competing conceptions of the Biblical "Jesus" (of which there are also many, as cited). bd2412 T 13:49, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

  Consider, in fact:

  Multiple conceptions of the Biblical figure: 2005, Richard A. Burridge, Four Gospels, One Jesus?: A Symbolic Reading, p. 165:

  Four portraits or four Jesuses? The first question concerns whether there are four gospels and one Jesus, or four Jesuses.

  Multiple figurines or other physical objects constituting depictions of the Biblical figure: 1996, Rick Reilly, Missing Links, p. 59:

  One Christmas, he talked me into going around town stealing all the baby Jesuses out of creche scenes.

  Multiple people who happen to share the name, "Jesus": 2003, J. P. Mendum, D. M. Bennett, Revelations of Antichrist Concerning Christ and Christianity, p. 42:

  We may perhaps accept the Talmud as authority for the existence of a distinguished Professor Jesus and his pupil James ; but what feature has either of them in common with the Jesus or the Jameses of the Gospels, that would not apply as well to almost any other of the numerous Jesuses or Jameses of the first century ?

  bd2412 T 14:07, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Ruakh again has wheel-warred this entry, removing all meaningful warnings. Nothing I said in my edit was incorrect, nor did I remove any of the citations provided. However, this entry, as it exists now, is purposefully misleading. It promotes a particular point of view with the explicit intent of offending more than a billion people, by its misrepresentation. IF the entry is to be kept, it needs to say why and how the term is offensive. It is not neutral to promote this term as a ordinary correct English term - it simply is not. Since the entry can't seem to exist without meaningful warnings, it should instead be deleted again. --Connel MacKenzie 19:36, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Once again, you find yourself lying transparently on a widely-read page. Doesn't bother you that most editors realize within a few days here that they can't trust anything you write? —Ruakh_TALK 00:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Raukh, what lies? You made this edit to the entry, so you cannot claim that it was not edited by you as you stated [17]. Connel is correct that many Christians are offended by the mere concept of more than one Jesus, just as many Moslems are offended by images of Mohammed, and it is an official and historic heresy. You are splitting hairs in saying that this does not apply to the word that is used to communicate that concept, and are being rude in your response to Connel. --EncycloPetey 01:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

EP, thanks for your comment. :-)   Connel says "Ruakh again has wheel-warred this entry". Seeing as I've edited that entry exactly once, he can't even claim that I've wheel-warred (except by a very loose definition that construes a single revert as "wheel-warring"), much less that I've "again wheel-warred". I understand that many (even most) Christians would be offended by the concept of more than one Jesus; but most Christians have enough brain cells to rub together and figure out that the word (deprecated template usage) Jesuses does not, in and of itself, imply such a thing. Connel's edit described the word itself as "intentionally incorrect" and a "violent misconstruction", and said that its use must "purposefully offend[]" Christians. Nonsense; none of that is true, and he knows it, and that makes him a liar; and everyone else here knows it, too, which makes his lies very transparent. As I said on his talk page, he can help craft a useful context tag and/or usage note; but lying his ass off and POV-pushing won't get him anywhere, especially since I suspect (but admittedly cannot prove) that he's trying to abuse religious sensitivity to push his usual prescriptivist this-​sounds-​wrong-​to-​me-​so-​Wiktionary-​must-​lambaste-​it-​in-​the-​harshest-​terms POV. (BTW, this isn't a big deal, but I didn't "claim that it was not edited by" me; I stated — correctly — that I hadn't edited it, meaning that I hadn't edited it by the time Connel made his over-the-top edits to it.) Thanks again for your comment; it's good for me to be aware that not everyone sees through Connel's shit. :-/   —Ruakh_TALK 12:31, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Ruakh, our definition of wheel war says nothing about multiple edits. Granted, Connel made a mistake in saying that you had "again wheel-warred this entry" as you had not edited that particular entry before. However, your choice of words ascribes malicious motive to Connel's statement, and your latest response broadens the insult to other users here. Using profanity repeatedly in an attempt to vent frustration will not endear you to anyone. --EncycloPetey 05:52, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

EP, our definition of wheel war says nothing about anything like my edit. However, I'm sorry that I insulted you; you didn't deserve the insult, and certainly I was wrong to characterize your bold assumption of good faith as failure to see through an editor's lies. (I can't share your bold assumption in this case — I did my best and failed — but that doesn't give me the right to criticize you for your success.) You're also right about the use of profanity, and thanks for that important reminder. —Ruakh_TALK 17:58, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Упячка

slogans

buried treasure

Treasure which has been buried; sum of parts, not obviously idiomatic. What was this doing on Wiktionary:project-wanted articles anyway? Is there another meaning? -- Visviva 03:47, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

By my lights, a figuratively buried figurative treasure wouldn't warrant an entry, but perhaps someone thinks so. DCDuring TALK 03:56, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I added the term. It has both a literal set phrase sense and a figurative sense. The literal concept of buried treasure evokes images of pirates and piracy, and of treasure chests. This connotation is not inherent in the sum of "buried" + "treasure". The figurative sense shows up in sources like these: [18], [19], [20], [21], [22], [23], [24]. --EncycloPetey 04:34, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Buried treasure has at least two idiomatic meanings. 1) A reference specifically to pirate treasure, even out of context—as in, treasure specifically buried by a stereotypical (mythical) pirate, and found with a treasure map (!), as popularized by Treasure Island and probably all pirate fiction since. 2) Like treasure trove, "buried treasure" is also used to refer to any valuable find, uncoviering something that was hidden, buried or not, as in "The best place to look for buried treasure is the library." [25] Dmcdevit·t 04:58, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, buried#Adjective can also have the meaning "hidden, concealed." So the figurative sense doesn't seem obviously non-compositional to me. And I have to dispute the association with pirates; a cursory check of b.g.c. shows all sorts of references to buried treasure in pirate-free locations like New Mexico, Oklahoma, and the Sri Lankan interior. (I was rather surprised to find that w:Buried treasure focuses on pirates, as I would have expected more general coverage of the topic.) Seems like this can be (and is) used pretty freely in any relevant sense of "buried" or "treasure."

IMO those who write of "the buried treasure of Jean Lafitte" and "the buried treasure of the Kandyan kings" are using this collocation in exactly the same way. But I could be persuaded otherwise -- is this ever used out of context to refer to specifically to pirates -- that is, where it is not obvious in context that the treasure would have been buried by pirates? -- Visviva 05:15, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't care if you delete the article. However, "treasure" has so many different connotations (treasure can mean something different to each person - i.e. gold/goal/knowledge/etc.) Yet, with this definition, I used the common type relating to pirate, and have included a reference to Wikipedia since I retrieved the idea for the definition from there. miranda 05:39, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you for your work. I don't mean to disparage this contribution in any way (although I realize it probably seems that way). The entry was quite well-composed, and you are to be commended for filling an open request.

To respond to your point, I guess it's the very fact that "buried" and "treasure" can have so many meanings that bothers me -- as far as I can tell, looking at the various uses on Google Books, "buried treasure" can have any of those meanings. That would seem to make it non-idiomatic. -- Visviva 12:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, the stuff between the lines makes it worth keeping. DAVilla 06:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

OK, I realize that there is a connection between pirates and buried treasure. But is there a connection between the word "buried treasure" and pirates? I wouldn't normally make the connection myself, unless I happened to be on a seacoast somewhere. For example, if my cousin were searching for buried treasure in Indiana, I would assume that an outlaw or a miser was involved, not a pirate. -- Visviva 12:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

But in that case, you've added context information by specifying geography. In the absence of other context, I think first of the stereotypical image of a pirate's chest. --EncycloPetey 13:54, 19 May 2008 (UTC)

he is n

Not a set phrase; arguably a way of saying something. Was this type of entry discussed here? --Connel MacKenzie 18:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

Yes, at Wiktionary:Beer parlour#Gaps in entry titles.. With no resolution, but some forward motion. We don't have anyway of presenting constructions that seems likely to work for non-expert users. Even "one's", "something", "somebody" don't work very well for search though they seem to be deemed adequate as far as they go. DCDuring TALK 19:27, 22 May 2008 (UTC)

The is merely a use of (deprecated template usage) be, just as (deprecated template usage) tener is used for this in Spanish. The only part of this construction that is constant is the presence of some form of the verb (deprecated template usage) be. The pronoun "he" may be replaced by any other pronoun, a proper noun, or a noun phrase. The "n" can be replaced by any reasonable integer value or by and integral number of years plus subdivision of a year. The entry as it is currently structured is practically useless, and the content should be moved to (deprecated template usage) be. --EncycloPetey 00:16, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Actually, even (deprecated template usage) be isn't a constant part of it: google books:"looked twelve". (By the way, the number of years doesn't have to be integral: google books:"she's two and a half".) I think this falls into the category of things that would be great to have, but that just don't fit into our framework of word-indexed entries. Perhaps an appendix of some sort? I don't have a good name to suggest, though. :-/   —Ruakh_TALK 00:38, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

But "looked" twelve doesn't mean the parson "is" twelve! Gary Coleman "looked" twelve long after he was much older, so changing the verb does change the meaning. And yes, I know about the "and a half", which is why I said "plus subdivision of a year" (which was intentionally vague to cover a variety of things). We keep proposing appendices, but the name is less important than the writing. Once it's written, we'll have a clearer idea of what's included and can pick a suitable name. Right now it's entirely hypothetical. --EncycloPetey 01:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: "changing the verb does change the meaning": Seeing as changing the subject also changes the meaning, as does changing the number, can you offer a less arbitrary explanation of why (deprecated template usage) be, specifically, is the essential part of this construction? —Ruakh_TALK 01:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Please don't be deliberately dense. "X is Y", where X is a specific person or object, and where Y is a numerical value, indicates the measured age of X. That isn't true when you use "looks". When you say "X looks Y" under the previous definition of X & Y, you are indicating an apparent age, not an actual or measured age. --EncycloPetey 02:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't think I'm being dense, and if I am, it's certainly not deliberate. I maintain that (deprecated template usage) be is not an essential part of this construction; there's a general pattern that ages can be given simply as a number that indicates a certain number of years — for example, by sixteen he means “by sixteen years old, he” — and (deprecated template usage) be is relevant only insofar as we tend to indicate ages using (deprecated template usage) be in English. If you think be should have a sense line pertaining to ages, I might agree; but I think you're being dense if you think that "be twelve" represents a completely separate use of be from "be twelve years old". —Ruakh_TALK 02:48, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

I make no such distinction. Phrases like "years old", "days old", "months old", et.c may be added to the expression, but "years old" is frequently omitted in casual speech. --EncycloPetey 02:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

delete. Everyone seems to agree that the entry is pretty useless, and this entry will be deleted per process. He is twelve always means He is twelve [years old], so a main namespace sense of (deprecated template usage) be seems in order, perhaps something like this:

1. (deprecated template usage) to be [some number] of years old

   He is twelve. (meaning, “He is twelve [years old].”)

Coolio? Rod (A. Smith) 02:10, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh, yeah. Similarly at the other English copula verbs ((deprecated template usage) look, (deprecated template usage) seem, (deprecated template usage) appear, (deprecated template usage) act, etc.):

1. (deprecated template usage) to look [some number] of years old

   He looks twelve. (meaning, “He looks twelve [years old].”)

2. (deprecated template usage) to seem [some number] of years old

   He seems twelve. (meaning, “He seems twelve [years old].”)

3. (deprecated template usage) to act [some number] of years old

   He acts twelve. (meaning, “He acts twelve [years old].”)

Hmm, maybe an appendix is in order, after all. Rod (A. Smith) 02:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

As a definition under the entry (deprecated template usage) be, that looks good. --EncycloPetey 02:14, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Most children over the age of 5 manage this construction without the use of a dictionary. The appendix might be instructive for us - no small consideration - but probably not so much for our users. DCDuring TALK 02:21, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

What about adults who have not learned English as their primary language? Many languages do not use the equivalent of the verb (deprecated template usage) be to indicate age. Spanish uses (deprecated template usage) tener, which primarily means "to have, hold". --EncycloPetey 02:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

They could ask a child. It would be much easier than finding it here. We can't necessarily address every usage question from a dictionary format. DCDuring TALK 02:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

In addition to the entry at (deprecated template usage) be, should we make something like Appendix:English copula to detail the interesting senses, collocations, and grammar of the various English copula? Rod (A. Smith) 02:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

For consistency, that probably ought to be Appendix:English copulas, since there is more than one such word in English. --EncycloPetey 02:58, 23 May 2008 (UTC)

Per others, I think that this should be deleted, and there should eb no sense for thsi s.v. be (or n or numbers). An appendix on copulas sounds nice, but we can delete this meanwhile imo.—msh210℠ 21:10, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm okay with deleting this. DAVilla 06:24, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I was about to delete this, but is anything salvageable (movable) from among the translations?—msh210℠ 19:25, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

yadda

Entry only says "See yada yada yada". There is no definition and no support as an independent word in the entry. It is not even splled the same as the target entry. --EncycloPetey 15:18, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

It's clear from b.g.c that both "yadda yadda yadda" and "yada yada yada" are amply attested. It doesn't need support as an independent word, if it did then all our "alternative spellings" entries would be bad. It's common sense, that if someone is wondering what "yadda yadda yadda" means, there's a good chance they'll look up just "yadda". As for whether yadda redirects to "yada yada yada" or "yadda yadda yadda", that's academic. Probably the only reason the entry wasn't just an auto-redirect, is the good possibility "yadda" could mean something in another language. Language Lover 18:28, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

But the entry for yadda is labelled "Interjection". It is not an interjection, and it is not a word. --EncycloPetey 21:01, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Ok I went and rewrote it to be self-contained. If it's not an interjection, is it a particle? In any event, it's most definitely a word. Language Lover 05:48, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Which definition of (deprecated template usage) word applies here then? None of our current definitions apply to this item. It doesn't work as a particle, either, because particles are typically appended to an existing word, phrase, or clause, rather than strung together to assemble a "word". And let me make it clear that I am not being facetious in pursuing this case, but am taking it quite seriously. I believe that it will make a nice reference point for other such situations, so good discussion is to be valued. I know where I stood at the beginning of this discussion, but do not know yet where I will stand at its conclusion. --EncycloPetey 17:34, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Um, the one labelled 'linguistics' applies perfectly well. Maybe it's a US thing and you're UK or Australia or something? Language Lover 18:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Nope, I'm US. (see blow) --EncycloPetey 17:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, it doesn't quite fit that sense, because it doesn't "have a particular meaning"; it's part of a larger phrase that has meaning, but on its own it seems that it doesn't. (That's kind of an iffy criterion; does (deprecated template usage) a have a particular meaning in “Veo a ella”? Words don't always have meanings, per se, and sometimes just have grammatical roles. But either way, (deprecated template usage) yadda doesn't seem to have either one.) —Ruakh_TALK 21:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

As Ruakh has pointed out, either we have a problem calling this a word, or our current definition of (deprecated template usage) word is inadequate. --EncycloPetey 17:50, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

When we first wrote this back in early 2006, there was a question about punctuation as well as about how many yadas. It was decided then to put the main entry at yada yada yada and to add redirects from some of the common permutations such as yada yada. —Stephen 06:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Not sure if three is any more correct. Two yaddas gets a good number of hits. One yadda? Send to RFV. DAVilla 05:27, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep somehow. I agree that this needs to be done better, but it looks like a word, and even a native English speaker would assume it was a word if (s)he didn't know better. Incidentally, however we decide to format this non-word-that-warrants-inclusion-anyway, we might want to use the same approach for misspellings. —Ruakh_TALK 21:09, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Not to spoil this as a test case, but yaddas are not always found in sequence. I've added some cites illustrating this, based on which I believe we should keep the entry. Also added another POS, but that might be dispensed with; it seems that, much like certain expletives, this can fill pretty much any grammatical role. Maybe we need a ===Placeholder=== POS. -- Visviva 17:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

کله کیر

It has been at requests for verification before but does not appear to be verified. The English definition has been removed by 64.62.138.100 (talk) but I reverted and decided to nominate it for deletion, unless it can be verified it should be deleted. 86.152.210.92 01:30, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

The fundamental meaning is correct, but the question is the semantic level. Literally it says "prick head", but I don’t know if it is used only in a vulgar sense or also in medical jargon. —Stephen 06:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

trundle along

From WT:RFC:

Is this a sum of parts, as in the example sentence given? Or is the example sentence wrong?—msh210℠ 20:54, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Both. A proper example would omit "the path" from the sentence, but then it's still just use of along as an adverb. You can "travel along (singing a song)", and do many other actions along. The only one of these that I can think of to call idiomatic is run along, which is often used as a mild command to "go away". --EncycloPetey 14:01, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay; thanks. Moving to RFD.—msh210℠ 15:39, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Please continue discussion here.—msh210℠ 15:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

delete - mere sum of parts. --EncycloPetey 17:28, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. b.g.c. is crazy bad at counting, but trying a few searches, it seems like (deprecated template usage) trundle tends to be used with (deprecated template usage) along, making this a fixed expression. —Ruakh_TALK 23:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I get the same number of returns on b.g.c. whether I search for "trundle along", "trundle out" or "trundle in". --EncycloPetey 01:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• delete Widsith 14:54, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Strong keep It is a phrasal verb. Try using trundle without along and see what you get. -- Algrif 18:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Googled "trundle along to the" and just to give the first of hundreds:- I worked in Northampton in the mid 1980's and so I used quite regularly trundle along to the County Ground. -- Algrif 18:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Well, EP has already said above that "trundle in" and "trundle out" are equally valid. Widsith 21:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

• Big Delete. "Trundle", as a verb, is mainly transitive. But even when intransitive, most historical usages (in OED and in literary searches) come up without an "along". Consider the following:

The Wheels of Chance by H.G. Wells, Chapter 27,

...Might trundle back there in an hour

May-Day and Other Pieces by Ralph Waldo Emerson, Una,

But if upon the seas I sail,

Or trundle on the glowing rail...

The Weavers by Gilbert Parker, Chapter 23,

She watched the grotesque thing trundle away

-- WikiPedant 06:23, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Sorry to disagree in a big way. But I don't think they used to wheel themselves to the County Ground. Remove or change the adverb, and you change the meaning. This is the whole point about phrasal verbs. This quote (and it is easy to find thousands more) shows trundle along to mean to go somewhere at a leisurely pace which is a far cry from the meaning of trundle, which has to do with wheels, BTW. -- Algrif 10:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

While I think there is some validity to this point, I note that the OED has "trundle" meaning go/walk with cites back to 1680, including for example Congreve's The Way of the World ("They are gone, Sir, in great anger." "Enough, let 'em trundle.") Methinks we should have a comparable sense at trundle, and that it should have a usage note indicating that this usually collocates with "along" in contemporary English. -- Visviva 16:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Still a delete. The intransitive "trundle" can mean to move by rolling (on wheels or otherwise) or to walk in a halting, rolling, or leisurely way and both of these senses can be accompanied by a range of modifiers, such as "in," "out," "up," "down," "over," "under," "away," or "toward." In each case, the resulting expression is just SOP. "Along" is not a special case, and I seriously doubt that it is even correct to concede that the intransitive verb "trundle" usually collocates with "along". -- WikiPedant 17:57, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I can only agree with these arguments IF, and only if, trundle can be shown to also mean move in a leisurely pace with any reasonable preposition / adverb, and not specific to wheels, which is a very important point. It will have to fit with the quotes (easily found) about ships, yachts, and boats that trundle along to a port or cove, etc. Though I must say, I've never heard of a boat trundling to a port. Another point is that I have to reject any argument about literal meanings. Most phrasal verbs also have literal meanings, which does not detract from their status as phrasal verbs. I also reject the arguments that because the verb can be found with other prepositions it is not phrasal with along, for the same reasoning. But the argument that trundle is very commonly found with along is in fact a supporing case for this very probably being a phrasal construction. As things stand at the moment, anyone trying to understand We trundled along to John's house by looking up trundle is going to end up being worse off than when he started. -- Algrif 11:49, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

No, the point that it is commonly found with along does not argue that it is phrasal because (as I pointed out above) it is equally common to find the adverb in or out used following trundle. It is also very commonly found as "trundle over" and "trundle back". No one adverb stands out as most common, which is, in fact, a strong argument that it is not a phrasal verb.

As to your entrenched stance and demand for proof, I personally doubt that sea turtles "wheel" themselves onto the beach, or that a memorandum is moved along this way, or that one exits one's car by means of wheels:

• 2005 — Kim Grant, Kimberly Grant, Glenda Bendure, Lonely Planet Publications (Firm), Ned Friary, Michael Clark, Conner Gorry, Hawaii, p286

  Nowadays it's famous mainly for green sea turtles that trundle out from the sea to bask in the sun after gorging on limu (seaweed).

• 1995 — Ged Martin, Britain and the Origins of Canadian Confederation, 1837-67, p107

  When Edmund Head offered to trundle out his favourite weapon, the memorandum...

• 2006 — Dave Van Ronk, Elijah Wald, Lawrence Block, The Mayor of Macdougal Street, p110

  So from time to time we would pull over to the side of the road, and I would trundle out, ice scraper in hand, to peel ten pounds of bird porridge off the windshield.

It's a shame you didn't take the proactive approach to look for these, because they were very easy to find. The problem is only that we need to amend the entry for (deprecated template usage) trundle. --EncycloPetey 13:29, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I did, in fact, take the time to look for these kind of examples too, EP. I agree entirely that trundle needs additional definitions. But that does not stop trundle along from being a phrasal verb, as well as being used literally. You are possibly being equally entrenched in saying that it isn't. What about examples such as-

• Many of us trundle along through life until we reach a tipping point for our energy systems.

Trundle along through ?? Sorry, but this really is a phrasal verb in these sort of examples. It's a shame you didn't check these typically phrasal structures out. ;-) -- Algrif 15:21, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

What about "Many of us trundle happily through life." Does that make trundle happily a phrasal verb? No. This is a case of (deprecated template usage) along used as an adverb, and I did check these "typically phrasal structures" out. My comments above show that I did (see "trundle out from the sea" & co.), so it's a shame you weren't reading my comments carefully. I chose that example deliberately.

I humored you in your demand for proof, even though (logically) the null hypothesis in a situation like this is that your claim is false, and so the burden of proof properly lies in demonstrating that trundle along is a phrasal verb. You have not proven that it is, and I have provided ample evidence that it isn't. Your criticisms have been answered, and you are alone in maintaining your position this is a phrasal verb. Everyone else disagrees with you in this matter. I consider the discussion settled, even if not unanimously. --EncycloPetey 18:04, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

I don't need humoring, nor condescension. Trundle along is a phrasal verb. This is RFD by the way, which is why the burden of proof is on YOU to demonstrate why it should be deleted. I'm with you all the way on most of the comments, including the fact that the example in the entry is not an example of the phrasal verb. But there are literally hundreds of quickly citeable examples, even though (for some obscure reason) you don't accept them as such.

• Not-so-wealthy souls can only hope that someone will trundle along to the funeral with a few nice words.
• Trundle along to February 2005.
• ...as we trundle along in the trade winds.
• Civilizations trundle along through many imagined crises but this time we are facing challenges that will absolutely end our way of life within decades.
• OK, well I'll trundle along down with Nick and a late picnic lunch.

I think it is a big mistake to remove a perfectly good, citeable phrasal verb from the dictionary, while continuing to seriously consider some really stupid (and I know what this word means) entries. You will find some just a few lines below this discussion.

It really is NOT a case of whether you can say "trundle (in, down, null) to the funeral", "Trundle (in, down, null) to February 2005", "...as we trundle (in, down, null) in the trade winds." etc (Although they all sound very odd, particularly the trade winds one). If it were just that, then we could happily eliminate write down, fill up, close down, wander around etc. The point is that these are all used as phrasal verbs in everyday writing and speech. And so is trundle along. Still, have it your own way. Close your eyes to the evidence. I'll be bringing up (oops. Not a phrasal. Silly me) I'll be bringing write down, fill up, close down, etc. to RFD shortly. -- Algrif 13:07, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

You've misunderstood. I'm not saying that other adverbs/proepositions can be substituted to say the same thing; I am saying that numerical "proof" of a verb as phrasal is meaningless. Yes, "trundle" is frequently followed by "along", but no more so than by other adverbs of position or motion. The only argument that has been offered for this item being a phrasal verb is that the combination has some unspecified frequency. My point is that just because two words often occur next to each other does not mean that the combination deserves a dictionary entry.

You're missing another important point. For write down, fill up, etc. the phrasal verb is idiomatic. The verb write down down not mean from the top to the bottom of the page. To fill up something does not necessarily mean that it is filled in an upwards direction. These combinations are themselves idiomatic in a way that trundle along is not. --EncycloPetey 00:33, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not missing any point here at all. 1. I don't think I ever mentioned numbers, did I? If you refer to the "thousands of easily found examples", it does not mean that I think statistics have anything to do with whether a verb is a phrasal verb or not. 2.To be a phrasal verb construction does not necessarily mean there is any strictly idiomatic meaning. This is why I mention write down and fill up as examples of readily accepted phrasal verbs with a non-idiomatic meaning. fill up = fill. Write down = write. But there are certain characteristics of phrasal verbs which show indivisibility of meaning. Examples such as

• ...as we trundle along in the trade winds.
• I'll trundle along down with Nick later.

demonstrate that this construction is phrasal, and is in use. It is well known that even the most respected authorities argue constantly about these borderline cases. My opinion is that Wikt generally includes this kind of thing rather than eliminates. I propose taking this over to BP to try to hammer out some guidelines for phrasal verbs vs. SoP. I will write a discussion start for BP asap (work commitments allowing). I would just like to add one aside:- When I started on Wikt a year and a bit ago, there were only 22 entries in Category:English phrasal verbs. There are now well over 800. Thanks to all the interested collaborators. There are are considered to be something over 3,000 phrasal verbs in the English language in general use, so we still have plenty of work to do. -- Algrif 10:59, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

(1) Look back at your arguments to refresh your memory. You've pointed at the big numbers more than once in your arguments. (2) You've missed part my last post completely. The phrasal verb write down is idiomatic by virtue of a change in the meaning of "down". Where are you writing it? Down. Obviously that doesn't make sense, because "down" is part of the phrasal verb and not an adverb. The phrasal verb fill up is also idiomatic since a balloon filled "up" is not filled in an upwards direction. How is it filled? Up. Again, it doesn't make sense to ask that because "up" is a directional word, and the filling does not necessarily happen in the direction indicated, not is "up" functioning as an adverb. With trundle along, this does not happen. Where did he trundle? Along. The word "along" fuliflls the function of an adverb and answers the quesiton of an adverb. Your latest supporting examples still do not demonstrate that we have a phrasal verb here. Consider:

• ...as we sail along in the trade winds. ...as we toss along in the trade winds. ...as we drift along in the trade winds. ...as we [verb of motion] along in the trade winds.
• I'll stroll along down with Nick later. I'll mosey along down with Nick later. I'll saunter along down with Nick later. I'll ease along down with Nick later.

In none of these examples do we see any of the behavior of a phrasal verb. And, BTW. the discussion in the BP already started. --EncycloPetey 02:35, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Strong keep - trundle should perhaps be a soft redirect to the common form (the only form I've ever heard, in fact) trundle along. If someone said "I will just trundle." or "I'm going to the beach to trundle." they would not (or rather, should not) expect to be understood. While sail, toss, drift, stroll, mosey, saunter and ease are used in English without along, the word trundle (almost without exception) is only used with along. To suggest otherwise, would be seriously misleading our readers. --Connel MacKenzie 23:51, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Weak delete. It seems the arguments would have us keep a lot of stuff with "along", but I'm willing to reconsider. DAVilla 05:22, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Strong delete. First of all, the entry as it stands is bad: the definition is arguably for "trundle" alone, and the example given is not for "trundle" + adverb but for "trundle" + preposition, which is definitely not Wiktionary material as constructions of the form verb + preposition cannot exist independently of a noun or pronoun (whether after or before).

But here's the real reason this has to be go. There are a bunch of verbs in English that can be followed by an adverb of place that have the sense of "go in a particular manner/direction". For example, "pop", in the sense of "go quickly", can be found as "pop out to the shops", "pop downstairs to see who is at the door", "pop round to my grandmother's house", "pop it through the hole", etc. Dictionary entries for these sorts of verbs are always for the verb alone; each of the adverbs just qualifies how the verb is being done (mainly, the direction of motion). In all of these cases, "pop" can be replaced with "go" (for the intransitive uses) or "put" (for the transitive uses), and "go downstairs", "put ... through", etc, are neither idiomatic not phrasal verbs for the same reason.

In the case of "trundle", there are plenty of adverbs that can be placed after it: here are some examples from Google (note however that "trundle" is sometimes a proper or common noun or something else in many of these hits, and the adverb is sometimes a preposition, so the numbers of hits are only a guide):

• trundle around (8260 hits): [26]
• trundle away (1460 hits): [27]
• trundle in (26,900 hits): [28] (requires log-in to Google Books)
• trundle off (11,700 hits): [29]
• trundle out (6430 hits): [30]

So "trundle along" is by no means a special case of "trundle" + adverb, neither is it a phrasal verb (as it has no meaning beyond "trundle" + "along") and so it certainly should be deleted. — Paul G 12:42, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Comment. B.g.c. searches for phrases like "trundling along toward" and "trundling along by" pull up some hits that suggest to me that for some speakers, (deprecated template usage) trundle along is a fixed expression meaning what (deprecated template usage) trundle alone means for others. (Please click through and see if they suggest the same to you.) Connel's comment above suggests that he belongs to the former group; and I think I belong to it as well (this isn't a word I use myself, but when I hear (deprecated template usage) trundle I definitely expect the next word to be (deprecated template usage) along). If I'm right about this, then I think we should keep [[trundle along]] and seek information about what sort of variation (regional?) is at work here. —Ruakh_TALK 18:03, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

scene kid

Is this SoP? Basically a "kid" participating in a popular cultural "scene". DCDuring TALK 22:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Doesn't feel sum of parts to me, though I'm not sure why. In any case, this would be sense 10 out of 9 for scene; no definition specific to music is present in that entry currently. -- Visviva 17:02, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think this is pretty much accurate...— This unsigned comment was added by 91.106.12.38 (talk) at 18:22, 14 July 2008.

-ostomy

I think the proper suffix is -stomy (making a hole). The "-o-" is added for euphony. Should we have this as a full entry, redirect, not at all, or what? DCDuring TALK 01:44, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Oh no, not this again. I get a headache just looking at that discussion. Agree that this should be a soft redirect to -stomy; -ostomy may (or may) not be a "real" suffix, but we cannot assume that either users or contributors will be aware of this. -- Visviva 16:58, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

-o- is incidental. The real problem to me was that the more correct suffix -stomy wasn't an entry. I don't want to waste folks' time on this. I suppose having an extra "erroneous" suffix really doesn't matter much since suffix entries are rarely used to support or validate usage (which would be new word coinage). The words will be coined by influence of past practice and, now, the emergence of the word ostomy.

MW online has -stomy, not -ostomy. I'd expect the same from most dictionaries that have suffixes. DCDuring TALK 17:49, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think it would be useful to have this as a misspelling of/misconstruction of -stomy entry with a usage note explaining the -o-. Thryduulf+

Likewise for the OED, but the OED has both -logy and -ology, which seems like an identical situation. Similarly for the Collins Concise I have at hand at the moment. Since the business of infixation is opaque even to most native speakers, including many contributors here, I'd say we should have both such forms for every suffix (though the -o- form should preferably be a soft redirect with usage note, per Thryduulf). -- Visviva 06:26, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

on me

As in "I'm paying". SoP if we have the right sense of on, which would take any noun phrase in this sense. Or am I missing something? DCDuring TALK 01:22, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

It’s a common idiom. If you didn’t already know what it meant, you wouldn’t guess the meaning from on + me. The beer is on me sounds logically as though I’m wearing the beer. —Stephen 02:59, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Definitely a useful expression for a non-native speaker, adds value, SoP or not. --Hekaheka 03:40, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

But the phrase is not "on me". It is "on NP", where NP could be "me, "you", "him", "them", "us", "Uncle Sam", "the house", "the company", "my wife's family", any personal name, etc. How many of the forms would we need as either headwords or usage examples to capture enough of the searches? On the house should make it on its own merits. I have entered the relevant sense of on. DCDuring TALK 04:18, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

In which case I think this should be treated as an idiom and redirected to on somebody.

I don't object. All the pronouns should redirect to on someone or on somebody. (Do we prefer "someone" over "somebody") The same effect is accomplished by including all the different likely forms (all those using pronouns) as alternates, usage examples, or citations (in principal namespace). And that still doesn't fully address all the forms. I suppose that if someone searches for a term that has a space in it, we could generate some kind of help screen that informs them of our someone/body/thing lemma format for such entries. DCDuring TALK 15:58, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Are we obliged to included some reference to all the non-idiomatic possible meanings of "on someone" in the entry to "reduce confusion" by showing the contrasts? Is this really an idiom ? To me it is just a meaning of on that is not necessarily in a language learner's experience. DCDuring TALK 16:09, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

• Delete, but it would be nice to have a Phrasebook entry for it's on me. -- Visviva 06:00, 31 May 2008 (UTC)
• Delete SoP. If we keep, then move to on someone with redirects from on me et al.—msh210℠ 17:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)
• Keep, probably as a redirect to on somebody (or on something?). Conrad.Irwin 17:10, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete The financial responsibility sense of "on" is a modest extension of the the general responsibility sense of "on", which is, in turn, a reasonable figurative extension (along the lines of "burden of responsibility") of the more physical senses of "on". How many senses of "on" would we want reflected in the "on somebody" and "on something" entries? We would need to make sure that a user didn't think that the financial responsibility sense was the only one that could connect "on" and a person (or other financially responsible entity) That would essentially mean duplicating much of on. I don't see how we can include this without being compelled to include almost any slightly unusual or regionally restricted figurative use of any preposition with its object. Why should we bother having the preposition entries themselves? DCDuring TALK 18:13, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep as a set phrase, but determine the most common form (on the house, on him, on her, on their tab, on someone, etc.) and soft-link the others to it (probably this one, as on the house is distinct.) --Connel MacKenzie 01:00, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

• Move to be on someone/body. DAVilla 05:03, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

• Yuk, nasty. In that case, we could have "be in something", etc. In any case, "be on someone/somebody" excludes the possibility of phrases like "this is on the company" ( = the company is paying for this). This is just a special sense of the preposition "on", which is where this sense belongs — something like "to be paid for by (the person, people, organisation, etc, following "on") as a treat, rather than by someone else or jointly". Not my best attempt at a definition, but it's something like that. "On the house" is good to keep ("house" has a special meaning here, so this is idiomatic), but on + pronoun needs to be deleted. — Paul G 12:52, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The last sense of on#Preposition is currently:

1. Paid for by.

   The drinks are on me tonight, boys.

   The meal is on the house.

Does this need improvement? Or an extra sense? The more general meaning is something like "burdening". For example, "the responsibility for cleaning up the mess in on her." Note the usage examples include the most common objects. on the house is fairly idiomatic though. If we can make "on" good enough, perhaps we can get this to a delete consensus. DCDuring TALK 15:08, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. The entry at on is quite clearly sufficient. BUT, the Phrasebook argument is strong enough for this entry to be kept for that purpose alone. IMHO. -- Algrif 15:36, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Added Phrasebook category. Category has fewer than 100 English entries. DCDuring TALK 16:03, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

wait for

(From RFV)

---

I can see nothing but a sum of parts, wait and for Goldenrowley 03:53, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

---

We don't have that sense of for, and I'm not sure how it would be written. Waiting for someone does not necessarily mean to wait on that person's behalf; you might even be waiting for someone on someone else's behalf ("my boss asked me to wait for his daughter.") -- Visviva 06:10, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

---

I am not sure I understand the comment, two of the definitions of "for" apply after "wait":

1. for =Supporting (opposite of against).

   I wait for you to love me

2. for = Because of.

   I wait for love

Goldenrowley 19:09, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Abstain. I believe that the relevant sense of (deprecated template usage) for is one that we don't yet have — something like this:

1. Used to construe various verbs.

   Don't wait for an answer.

   What did he ask you for?

   He was convicted for murder. (We currently have this as an example for the “Because of.” sense, but that can't be right, as “He was wrongly convicted for a murder that never happened” is perfectly standard.)

   I'm looking for my friend.

— but that's no reason to keep wait for. On the other hand, in my experience we're pretty arbitrary about which verbs we take as phrasal and define on their own, and which ones we define at the main verb entry; if we expect our readers to be able to predict this, we might as well give up now on ever having readers. —Ruakh_TALK 19:58, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

An experienced Wiktionary user will try multiple approaches, knowing by experience that we are often inconsistent. A new user is more likely to type in "wait for" (or "wait") than "for", IMO. I am not yet certain that we have fully and accurately defined the senses of "wait for". DCDuring TALK 20:24, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

[edit conflict]

IMO those are not the right senses of "for".

1. In the first example the emotional content has introduced the idea of support, but that is not common and not relevant to the meaning at hand. For example, in the sentence "I am waiting for the other shoe to drop." the "support" notion does not apply in any way.
2. In ordinary language "cause" usually doesn't refer to a goal or an event in the future, but rather something from the past. "I am waiting for my hanging for my love." shows two sense of "for", the first is the sense that had been missing and the second is the cause sense.

"Wait for" is roughly synonymous with "await". MW3 shows 10 major senses and 18 subsenses of "for". There are obvious parallels among the senses, derived from a basic spatial metaphor applied in various ways, but they are distinguishable. DCDuring TALK 20:06, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree delete. This is just sum of parts, with (deprecated template usage) for leading off a prepositional phrase in the examples above. --EncycloPetey 20:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• I think keep, myself. How would you know how to translate it? wait for is a single transitive verb in many (most?) languages. Widsith 20:52, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I am afraid if we go down the route to say we cannot define "for", then we will have to make entries for things like "hold for", "stop for", etc. I think the word "for" is a word that links the word "wait" with the reason for waiting.. just as it links many other words to their reasons. Goldenrowley 22:29, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I disagree. To me, wait for sounds obviously more idiomatic than "stop for". The point is that, despite having a transitive verb await, the natural way to express the idea in English is to use an intransitive verb (wait) with a preposition. This is quite unlike the situation in other languages. It is not a matter of "not being able" to define for, but rather that it is more appropriate and helpful to consider this to be a compound verb. Widsith 08:53, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

For me that's not the issue. We ought to have both the appropriate senses for "for" and whatever phrasal verbs or idiomatic expressions use "for". In gray-area cases I favor being nice to naive users by including more likely-to-be-searched terms both as headwords and elsewhere, in alternative forms, usage examples, and usage notes. DCDuring TALK 23:36, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Weak delete, and wait on too. If we delete, we need a usage note s.v. wait.—msh210℠ 17:46, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• Delete, and improve the definition of for. My rule of thumb on deciding whether something is a phrasal verb or just a verb followed by a preposition is whether it can be felicitously passivized. In this way, wait for is very different from, say wait on, which is definitely a phrasal verb. "Yesterday I was waited on by a very good-looking waiter" is perfectly grammatical, but ???"Yesterday I was waited for by a very good-looking customer" sounds quite odd. (It's still better than *"The store was gone to", though, so maybe it's slightly more phrasal than go to, which is definitely SOP.) Angr 17:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• wait for cannot be translated by looking up wait and for, because the two words are translated by a single word in most other languages. Using two words is idiomatic English, not to mentiona a common set phrase. Why not have it? Widsith 20:32, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• I don't know if I agree with your premise. The correct way to translate (deprecated template usage) wait for is to look up (deprecated template usage) wait, find its translation, and see what preposition the translation is construed with. For example, the Hebrew translation of (deprecated template usage) wait is (deprecated template usage) חיכה (khiká), so you'd look that up, and find that in the relevant sense, it's construed with (deprecated template usage) ל־ (l'-). Problem solved. Unless you're saying that most languages use different words for (deprecated template usage) wait for as for bare (deprecated template usage) wait; but I don't think you are, and if you were, then it seems like we'd need the translation of (deprecated template usage) wait for at wait in order to prevent confusion. —Ruakh_TALK 22:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

• Er...I'm not sure, until that Hebrew page is created, how clear that will be. From what you are saying, though, I think that case is less confusing than translations which do not take any preposition at all. The French word attendre for instance — to me the defs wait (intransitive) and wait for (transitive) would ideally be on separate lines and link to separate English entries. The English word wait can be used with different prepositions – for, until, about, around, on, up — all of which effectively create very different "indirect" verbs, some transitive and others in-. Now while this can be dealt with through good preposition information at wait (the current entry is nowhere near, btw), I don't see why it's not more helpful to make common collocations such as wait for pages in their own right. As well, if not instead. Widsith 17:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• While I appreciate Widsith's valient efforts to find a perfect translation of words from other languages into English, the primary purpose of English Wikipedia is to define English words and phrases, not to fit what other languages have (that we do not) or to force the translations into English. For example we load English idioms here, we do not load English translations of French idioms (just because they can be translated). That having been said, "wait" implies we are waiting "for" something, in most cases. I never hear anyone "wait from" anything. Goldenrowley 03:57, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

  I don't see how anything I've suggested interferes with this "primary purpose" you are talking about. But whatever, I'm done. Widsith 06:29, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete with explanation at wait, and possibly splitting translations (if we still do that). DAVilla 06:44, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I was about to delete this, but is there anything salvageable (movable) among the translations?—msh210℠ 19:28, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

June 2008

number 2 pencil

Is this dictionary stuff? --Hekaheka 19:43, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Let's not be too hasty. I wouldn't be too surprised if we decided to keep it. It has some special associations with test-taking and bureaucracy. It gets some 200+ hits on b.g.c. for fiction. OTOH, I'm not sure. DCDuring TALK 20:01, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep; there's something that we need to say here, that we currently don't, but the current entry is a start. —Ruakh_TALK 20:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

On what grounds would you have it deleted? It's certainly not sum-of-parts. Language Lover 21:12, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Would you include grade A eggs, rated R movie, schedule II drug, or class A misdemeanor? Those all mean more than the sums of their respective parts only because of external-to-the-word knowledge we have about how classification of eggs, movies, drugs, and misdemeanors is done. That's encyclopedic information, not a definition. I want to say the same is true here, but DCDuring might have a point about "special associations".—msh210℠ 21:25, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

Taking your hypothetical question literally, I'd include grade A eggs but not rated R movie (I'm not familiar enough with law to judge the others without research). The difference is that rated R is itself very specific, but grade A is too broad and ethereal. So "rated R movie" is sum of parts (consider "rated R horror", "rated R comedy", "rated R film", etc), but "grade A eggs" is not. The "grade A" in "grade A eggs" has a very different meaning than in "grade A asshole" or "grade A book report". Similarly with "number 2 pencil", it does not mean the 2nd best pencil or the 2nd-in-command of pencils or anything like that. We could try to get this extremely obscure sense of "number" into number, but I think it would be out of place there, and it wouldn't be very helpful anyway. Language Lover 08:35, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Somehow, people have to have a way of finding out what a schedule II drug (etc) is. Perhaps we are the place to look. Anyway, w:pencil describes the European pencil classification - so I suppose we ought to have entries for 9H through 9B (via F and HB). SemperBlotto 21:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

The WP article eventually gets around to the US system. 21:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

To me the question is whether the associations are both sharp enough and strong enough to warrant an entry. Otherwise I would expect pencil and w:pencil to carry the load. To me it is associated with automatically scored multiple-choice and true/false tests, especially the SATs, civil service exams, but any test scored by a scantron or similar device. The technology limits this to some 50-100 years of human history. The institutional factors limit it a bit geographically within the English-speaking world. Perhaps the memories are strong because of the stress associated with these occasions of use of the term in the way.

Many of the fiction mentions seem to really just be about "pencil", with "number 2" thrown in for concreteness or "ordinariness". There are at least a few that seem to have the associations mentioned as meanings contributed by the phrase. Perhaps this could go to RfV to determine whether the term carried enough meaning in three citations, something like the way we handle brand names. DCDuring TALK 21:54, 5 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm surprised. There actually seems to be something special about #2 pencil. I did a set of Google searches for "number N pen" and here are the results:

1. 576
2. 94500
3. 297
4. 119
5. 8
6. 24
7. 8

And so on with max 10 hits until #18, after which there were zero hits. However I still think that the current definition does not catch the reason why it should be kept. I don't think there should be an entry for every possible value in every possible numbering system. --Hekaheka 04:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

It's special because lots of forms require you to fill them out with a number 2 pencil. Actually, I think the requirement is mostly fake, in fact I routinely fill such forms out in pen. But the documents SAY they require number 2 pencil, and the term gains traction accordingly. DCDuring pointed out fictional uses where the "number 2" is strictly for flavor, and there we see its specialness again, compare: "i set out with just five bucks and a number 2 pencil", to, "i set out with just five bucks and a number 3 pencil". The latter sounds weird and would confuse readers, the former is fine. I *wanted* to create an entry for "#2 pencil" but that's physically impossible with the wikimedia code. Language Lover 08:22, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

You can make a page for #. I think the #2 pencil requirement for filling out forms comes from the early days of OCR, when the readers could not detect # 3 pencil or various colors and densities of ink. Nowadays, blue or black ink will work just fine, although red ink is likely to be unreadable. —Stephen 10:36, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

That would seem to further limit the period of time for and generational relevance of the possible test-taking/authority sense to perhaps 1955-1995? and the Baby Boom generation. DCDuring TALK 10:50, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

No, they still say "use a number 2 pencil" to this day. Just because it's no longer actually needed doesn't mean people KNOW that. Anyway, it doesn't even matter. CFI says nothing about generational relevance. Language Lover 18:54, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I was only interested in justifying this to those who do not experience the resonance of the term. DCDuring TALK 19:04, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete.see below The only argument I see being offered for keeping this term is its significance, and significance has never been a criterion for keeping an entry. The "number 2" merely describes the hardness of the lead, and it just happens that number 2 was the particular hardness chosen by people who developed the form-scanning technology. It has the same arbitrary value as "yellow taxicab" and does not have the idiomacy of whole milk, red light, or fasten your seatbelts. --EncycloPetey 02:26, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

The historical accident is the basis for the additional meaning. This would need an additional sense, not yet provided, to warrant keeping. The literal meaning is the basis for whatever derived meaning there is and would need to remain. Samuel Johnson could have come up with a suitable definition for this. The other European-originated (?) hardness-indication is gaining currency in the US. DCDuring TALK 13:04, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

It's printed on the pencils, but I've only ever heard the European system used (in America) by artists. The general US population uses the numbered system. I hadn't realized there even was a difference between the US and UK systems, although that's not surprising. In light of this, I change my opinion to keep/move since this might be better placed at number 2. --EncycloPetey 15:38, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep, I hadn't heard the phrase before this RFD (I'd use HB pencil to describe a similar thing) and so Id've needed the entry to find out what it meant (I initially assumed that Number 2 was towards the extremities of the scale, however it seems to be in the middle). Conrad.Irwin 08:19, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I added a new sense which captures the term's usage to convey the standardness of the pencil. The "number 2" is often added just to distinguish the pencil from colored pencils, mechanical pencils, giant novelty toy pencils, etc., for applications where in fact any reasonable "number N" pencil would suffice. Language Lover 20:43, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep. sewnmouthsecret 19:28, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Keep because it may be generic per Language Lover and because of the culture surrounding it. That is, it has significance beyond its shade of grey. No. 1 / No. 3 etc. do not warrant inclusion. DAVilla 06:18, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 19:29, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

chugokugo

Bad redirect, speedy delete. Teh Rote 22:46, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Until we have a better solution (which has been written, just not finalised and installed) we tend to permit redirects to terms with diacritics. Conrad.Irwin 23:25, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Really? I've never seen anyone doing so except for Japanese/Chinese folks (that IP address that regularly adds Pinyin entries with and without tone marks). chūgokugo would show up as one of the search results for chugokugo. This just clutters mainspace with unnecessary misspellings, which don't pass CFI by themselves. --Ivan Štambuk 23:40, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, delete. (Maybe the template {{delete}} should have been used.) -- Gauss 23:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete; we don't include redirects for words with/without diacritics. The relevant policy page is Wiktionary:Redirections, but it does not explicitly address the case of diacritics, so this situation falls under the general rule of thumb given at the top of the page. --EncycloPetey 18:25, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

cosmocrat

Five redundant definitions, to my mind. What does anyone else think? Conrad.Irwin 23:25, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

IMO, rfv for each sense, given the long history. Either it's truly citable or the senses need to be merged so that there are enough cites to cover the overlapping senses. So far there are some uses, but the citation effort seems to have been misdirected. Perhaps the OED is citing some obscure theological sources that have not been scanned and are not readily available to us. DCDuring TALK 00:34, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

The OED Online gives only two cites for (deprecated template usage) cosmocrat proper — this one from 1820, which capitalizes it, and this one from 1870, which does not (though the OED Online transcribes the latter cite a bit differently from what you see on b.g.c. — it omits the word (deprecated template usage) just — so there may be more to the story). Also, in the same entry, it gives one cite each for (deprecated template usage) cosmocratic, (deprecated template usage) Cosmocratores, and (deprecated template usage) cosmocrators. —Ruakh_TALK 02:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a rather different mix of citations of uses in "modern" histories that use the word in closely related, mostly non-divine ways. One sense is something like cosmopolitan bureaucrat, another is the B-School "masters of the universe" sense, another is ancient imperial divine king (Nero, Augustus, Pompeii), and a more divine sense, which gets its citations as much from Tantra as Christianity, though they may be separable. Some are a bit mention-y, but not purely so. The senses certainly show a lot of relatedness. DCDuring TALK 03:40, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete/Merge. The senses listed for "Deletion" look redundant to me. I don't see anything in any of the supplied citations to warrant these additional "senses". --EncycloPetey 19:06, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

• Keep - each definition adds meaning and depth to the word. The definitions are individually different and each is correct. None of the definitions should not be deleted or merged. WritersCramp 02:06, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

• Move to RfV. Probably not possible to cite all, but worth a shot. DCDuring TALK 02:19, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

WritersCramp has done some merging. It looks good to me now, but if someone wants to, the citations page can be rearranged to match. DAVilla 06:34, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Nazi architecture

I don't see here anything but Nazi + architecture. There's no doubt about the existence of it as is the case with e.g. Roman architecture, renaissance architecture, Inca architecture, Soviet architecture, etc, but they are equally SOP's.--Hekaheka 09:58, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

Not if it describes a particular architectural style that is copied elsewhere. That is, is there more to Nazi architecture that simply that it is architecture that was built by Nazis? If it has certain consistent and recognizable design elements and is found built by non-Nazis, then it isn't SOP and we have a case for keeping it. I'm not knowledgebale enough about architectural styles to say whether this entry qualifies, but that's the criterion I'd use to make the decision. --EncycloPetey 15:53, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

• KEEP - This definition is about an architectural style during a defined period of time. See the Wikipedia article for an indepth acknowledgment of it's occurrence Nazi architecture. WritersCramp 02:01, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I read the Wikipedia article already before placing the tag, and there's nothing that would indicate it being anything but architecture built by the Nazis. Sure, it has recognizable design elements, but with the exception of swastika similar elements are found in the architecture of almost any dictatorship. In the article there are no references to eventual occurrence of specific Nazi architecture outside the Third Reich. I keep my delete. --Hekaheka 09:18, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: Obviously, you did not read the Wikipedia article, Nazi architecture is clearly a style of architecture, certainly much much more than a swastika on a building. WritersCramp 09:25, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

You did not read my original statement. I never denied it being an architectural phenomenon, I questioned its value as an entry in a dictionary. Victorian architecture is another distinctive style of architecture, but it does not add value as an indpendent entry, and it has been dealt with rather nicely under Victorian. --Hekaheka 12:53, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete.—msh210℠ 19:56, 23 June 2008 (UTC)

Comment: WritersCramp has a point there. -- Gauss 23:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete given all the examples we don't have. If it's more than sum of parts I'd like to see arguments for the others first. Otherwise, it seems the correct discussion to have is whether Nazi should have a definition line that refers to architecture. I doubt that, but if anyone supports it that's a question for RFV anyway. DAVilla 05:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Benedict Arnold company

SoP relic of 2004 US presidential campaign. DCDuring TALK 17:57, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

There are five raw Google Books hits (as I see it now). The first and fifth are not this term. The second is a quotation in a dictionary definition for "Benedict Arnold", so a SoP use. The third and fourth (both of which are books jointly by Boone and Kurtz) are quoting John Kerry (2004). So we have, so far, one cite: John Kerry, 2004. No Google Groups hits. Scholar has two hits, one of which is not this term; the other has "'Benedict Arnold' company", with "Henedict Arnold" in quotation marks, again indicating it's a SoP. Delete.—msh210℠ 20:12, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

How is the sum of parts if it can be any company, not necessarily related to Benedict Arnold, whoever that was? And if you don't know, what difference does putting in in quotation marks make? It's not a company that ever belonged to this guy, and the quotes help point that out, but the quotes don't tell you want the term does mean. Move to RFV. DAVilla 06:52, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't say sum of atoms. SoP. Part 1 = (deprecated template usage) Benedict Arnold + (deprecated template usage) company. I don't doubt that we could find a few citations. DCDuring TALK 12:32, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

I see. I'm not quite agreeing with the delete, since I've never known of a company to be a "traitor", but make my vote weak. DAVilla 10:09, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete as SoP. -- Gauss 23:52, 29 June 2008 (UTC)

Move to RFV or delete. In the Kerry quote itself, this seems to be SoP — it seems that he meant simply “traitorous company”, and was using the term to describe such companies — but Google pulls up statements like, "When asked for the definition of a 'Benedict Arnold' company or CEO, Stephanie Cutter, Kerry's spokeswoman, said: 'Companies that take advantage of tax loopholes to set up bank accounts or move jobs abroad simply to avoid taxes.'"^[31] google books:"benedict arnold companies" gets several hits, and they're not all half bad. —Ruakh_TALK 14:12, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Aren't occurrences in quotes considered mentions, not usage? DCDuring TALK 16:13, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Not necessarily; it depends what the quotation marks mean. By my understanding, if I write, "John is very short, and he's jealous of and dislikes any 'tall person' (seemingly anyone over 5'5")", that's a use — I'm using the phrase (deprecated template usage) tall person to mean anyone that John considers tall, and setting it off in quotes to indicate that I'm using his phrase, not my own. But if I write, "John is very tall, and he often gets called a 'giant'. He really hates 'giant', and prefers 'tall person'", that's a mention — I'm mentioning the phrase (deprecated template usage) tall person as an alternative to the term (deprecated template usage) giant. That doesn't mean the first example is ideal for attestation — for one thing, it's obviously not independent of a quote from John where he himself uses the term that way — but if I'm not mistaken, it's not inherently a mention. —Ruakh_TALK 16:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually, on second thought, I'm not sure about this; the first one might be kind of blurring the distinction. (The second one is definitely a pure mention, though.) —Ruakh_TALK 16:37, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, I shouldn't have overgeneralized either. To me the quotation marks are a kind of neologism warning in many applications. Here, in one b.g.c. hit, the collocation is quoted and referred to as a phrase: clearly a mention. A few of the others put the quotes around Benedict Arnold, which, I would argue, supports the SoP claim.

I have an intense dislike of political neologisms, especially partisan ones. I view them as a kind of spam, distributed by spinmeisters through allies in the news media. But that's just me. DCDuring TALK 16:50, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

zorb

Looks like spam, but might not be. NZ? DCDuring TALK 19:08, 19 June 2008 (UTC)

I think the Concise Oxford English Dictionary has now accepted the noun zorbing (since 2002). —Stephen 17:43, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

We've had it since '06. Maybe zorb just needs cleanup by someone who knows or cares. DCDuring TALK 00:26, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

The existence of the noun "zorbing" does not automatically imply the existence of the back-formation "zorb", if that is what it is supposed to be. — Paul G 11:57, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

presumptive nominee

A topical current collocation, but SoP. DCDuring TALK 14:57, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, delete --EncycloPetey 15:23, 20 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete. And if we do keep it, we need to fix the definition, which is wrong. —Ruakh_TALK 15:11, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

If the current definition is wrong, then maybe we should keep this entry (but corrected). —Stephen 17:39, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'd argue, but I decided it's simpler to fix the entry and see if you still think it's worth keeping. :-P —Ruakh_TALK 21:25, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think it looks pretty good. And as we have seen, not everybody knows the definition. Keep. —Stephen 22:00, 21 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm questioning my nomination of this term for deletion. There may be something the matter with CFI if it leads us to remove terms that are as topical as this one is. Google trends shows this as being searched some 200 times more lately than historic average. It is used in news articles about every four years !!! Only twice as much this year as four years ago. "Presumptive" is up 150% or so. Google trends does not allow a direct comparison of these terms, BTW. If this is what inquiring minds want to know, why should we not try to help? Admittedly it lacks the staying power of "MILF". DCDuring TALK 00:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

keep, when I read the SoP argument above, I assumed that presumptive nominee meant someone who presumed that they would be nominated, not someone who was presumed to be going to be noiminated (what tense is that even supposed to be...) . Even though you guys think it's topical, I'd never heard of it (possibly because I don't pay much attention to current affairs, and live in a different place) Conrad.Irwin 00:34, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Google Trends showed only US searches for the terms. Topical and common here. Not surprising that it has virtually no impact in RoW. DCDuring TALK 01:30, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Conrad, have you read the definition of presumptive? It's still SoP. --EncycloPetey 01:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, our definition of presumptive is not how I would define it at all. Someone who is presumptive is (or so I've always thought) someone who presumes, not someone who others presume about. Is this a misunderstanding on my part, a second definition of the word, or a regional difference? I would (as a SoP term) use "the presumed nominee" to refer to the one who is presumed to be nominated.) Conrad.Irwin 15:49, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Ok, according to several people on chat my notion of the meaning of this word is wrong, however google throws up some usage, so looks like the SoP argument might win it, but we also need to update presumptive. See google:"being presumptive".

I have inserted a usage example at presumptive including "presumptive nominee", which is what MWOnline has done, BTW. DCDuring TALK 16:39, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

I have inserted my definition at presumptive (with an example). Conrad.Irwin 18:22, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Is your sense of presumptive the same as presumptuous? I can see usage like that in books, mostly in contemporary fiction. DCDuring TALK 18:33, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I'd not considered presumptuous before, maybe it should be marked as a "common mistake" - though it does seem to be used reasonably frequently. Conrad.Irwin 18:36, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

delete as sum of parts. Thryduulf 11:45, 22 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete as sum of parts.—msh210℠ 21:15, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Delete by the end of the Democratic convention. Restore in about 3.5 years. |;-) DCDuring TALK 21:22, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: I've now seen "presumptive democratic nominee" and "presumptive republican nominee" used. This demonstrates that we do not have a fixed collocation. --EncycloPetey 16:50, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Same as "presumed nominee". Doesn't seem entrenched, and I'd guess it takes more than 3-5 years to be so. Delete. DAVilla 05:39, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Deleted.—msh210℠ 19:35, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

CL

rfd-sense Prefix for Canadair aircraft models. We have government aircraft prefixes, but not DC, as in DC-3, for the fabled twin-prop. DCDuring TALK 20:47, 26 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm clueless about the topic, so please bear with me. By "we" do you mean Wiktionary? Can you give some examples of "government aircraft prefixes" that we include? What are CL and DC instead? (Canadair used to be nationalized; would that make its prefix a government one, at least during that time period?) Why does this distinction bear on inclusion here? (I'm not saying that it doesn't, I'm just really clueless about this). —Ruakh_TALK 00:28, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

The Imperial Wiktionary we, yes. Both are arguably "private". If government enterprises are exempt from our rules on things like trademarks and such, do we have to keep track of shareholdings to know whether an item should be included? How much government ownership would get an entity over the hump? I really hope that government ownership will be a red canard.

DC stood for the Douglas Commercial, Douglas being Douglas Aircraft, the leading commercial aircraft company until Boeing came from their second position at the onset of the jet age. DC-3 through D-10 were their model numbers. The MD-80 is a descendant of the DC-9. US military prefixes are abundant. There are many, many naval ones, ranging from USS, to CVN, similarly for armored vehicles and helicopters. Surprisingly the Air Force hasn't gotten very many of their designations in. I don;t know about the government equipment designating prefixes. Our standards for abbreviations might allow them. The manufacturers' designations seem different to me. Mind you, I'd think we'd be better to have more trademarks, place names, etc. in Wiktionary, but rules is rules. DCDuring TALK 00:57, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

So are "CL", "DC", etc. assigned by some external authority, or is it just something the manufacturers do? If the former, I'm inclined to think of it as a meaningful and neutral unit that may be worth defining here; if the latter, I'm inclined to think of it as low-grade spam — not a big deal, but not something we'd want to encourage. —Ruakh_TALK 02:59, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

And, thanks for explaining so patiently. :-) —Ruakh_TALK 03:04, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

Manufacturers. The manufacturer's don't care enough to spam us. But there are plenty of fans for all kinds of boys' toys, especially "heavy metal". I have not been immune to the fascination of some of this. The two-letter airline codes (now augmented by additional codes), the three-letter airport codes, military equipment designations, .... Lists galore. The idea that we limit ourselves to product and brand names that convey more meaning than what they directly designate seems like a good idea, if we are going to exclude brands and company names. I'm not so clear whether we have drawn the line in the same place for abbreviations. It probably warrants some clarification of how our existing standards apply to determine if we need more. I see a lot of low-quality material in abbreviations. Not every government program and agency really merits inclusion of its abbreviation. I haven't seen terribly many RfV challenges to it. I don't find most of the abbreviations on Ullman's not-counted list to be worth fixing. I also don't think we should swamp the RfV/RfD with challenges without clarifying CFI for abbreviations. DCDuring TALK 04:19, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

artificial_grammar

rfc hasn't elicited good def in one year. DCDuring TALK 09:09, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

The only usage I know of means "bit of made-up language" (a severely reduced, ad hoc construction as opposed to a complete constructed language such as Esperanto or Ido). Made-up language tests are sometimes used to test language-learning ability. The U.S. Government used to use these tests to qualify applicants to the Defense Language Institute. See w:Artificial grammar learning. —Stephen 14:21, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Looking at th WP stub article and the first 2 pages of the 600+ raw b.g.c. hits, it seems SoP to me, but similar phrases have passed RfD. DCDuring TALK 15:54, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I've replaced the definition and removed rfc, but it still looks SoP to me. DCDuring TALK 16:18, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't see this as SoP any more than artificial intelligence. Since it is used attributively in artificial grammar learning, it should satisfy CFI. I'll try to find a more thorough explanation, since the current definition seems somehow lacking, but I can't articulate quite why I think that. --EncycloPetey 16:37, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, the current definition simply defines grammar. artificial grammar means "small bit of made-up language, used for testing language-learning ability". —Stephen 17:05, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

July 2008

pike

We now have two senses, Any carnivorous freshwater fish of the genus Esox and (UK) northern pike, Esox lucius. They seem the same, but I didn't want to remove it in case it is a different fish or if the translations were different.--Dmol 20:26, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know the facts, but it is often the case that one species takes the unmodified vernacular name of the genus, with other species having compound vernacular names. Other uses may use the same word to refer to more than one species, all or part of the same taxonomic group. In this case, there seems to be a regional difference. DCDuring TALK 20:48, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The common names of animals and plants are usually truly ambiguous. One species may have several names, which vary by region and sometimes one word may refer to different species in different regions. It is also common that the species belonging to one genus have a group name - in this case pike - and the best known species is commonly referred to with this same word. Luckily, the taxonomic names are less confusing. Here, we have a genus Esox, and all its species are may be referred to as "pike". One of the species, Esox lucius inhabits the lakes and rivers throughout North America, Europe and Northern Asia, and consequently has several common names, e.g. American pike (US), common pike (US), Great Lakes pike (US), great northern pike (Canada), great northern pickerel (US and Canada), jack (US and Canada), jackfish (US and Canada), northern pike (US, UK and Canada), pickerel (US and Canada), pike (Canada and UK), snake (US) and wolf (US). Obviously, there are other Esox species called X-pike, such as Allegheny River pike, Esox masquinongy and Amur pike Esox reichertii. To make it even more confusing, there are fishes in other genera that are also called pikes, such as African pike Hepsetus odoe and asp-pike Aspiolucius esocinus. There are many more to come, as I did not even complete the initial letter "A". Also the taxonomic family Esocidae is called pikes in English. As a conclusion, the two senses are separate, as the word pike may refer generally to any fish in the genus Esox or specifically to the species Esox lucius. Instead of deleting one of the existing two senses there might be a point for adding two more senses, one for the taxonomic family and one for those fish that are called pikes without actually being them from the taxonomic point of view. --Hekaheka 21:57, 1 July 2008 (UTC), --Hekaheka 07:38, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no reason to add a separate definitions for "fish belonging to the family Esocidae", since Esox is the only genus in that family. The current definition includes all members of that family. Also, I would merge the two existing definitions as "Any carnivorous freshwater fish of the genus Esox, especially from the species Esox lucius." The only reason that the UK definition is given as specific is that Esox lucius (by chance) happens to be the only species native to Europe. It is not that UK usage of the word pike is distinguishing their pike from American ones; it's merely that they don't have any others to call pike. --EncycloPetey 05:57, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Fine for me. What, if anything, should we write of those fishes that have the word "pike" in their common name, but do not belong to Esox? --Hekaheka 08:45, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

I've no strong opinions on that, as I don't know whether "African pike" is simply refered to in English as a "pike", or whether that's true for "asp-pike" or any others. I think I'd rather just start then off as Derived terms, and then make a decision once the list is fleshed out so that we have a basis for researching the issue. If some of these other fish are indeed referred to by just the word "pike", without a qualifier, than we could have another definition sense along the lines of "Any of several similar but unrelated freshwater carnivorous fish." --EncycloPetey 09:15, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Transwiki:Glossary_of_psychiatry

Same content, different formatting, as Appendix:Glossary of psychiatry.--Daniel Polansky 09:35, 2 July 2008 (UTC)

drift

rfd-sense: "The material left behind by the retreat of continental glaciers. It buries former river valleys and creates young river valleys. The Driftless Area, a geographical area of North America, was unglaciated for the past 510 million years. Mass noun." Should this be a new entry or is it too encyclopedic? DCDuring TALK 23:39, 4 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep it, but remove that part about the Driftless Area (which does make the definition sound a bit encyclopedic). There's no need for a new entry.--♠TBC♠ 02:42, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

well-ordered set

SoP: a set that's well-ordered.—msh210℠ 22:19, 10 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete DCDuring TALK 15:43, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom. —Ruakh_TALK 05:59, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Also, delete real number. I suspect that our association with Wikipedia generates a desire to create entries for names of concepts: "well-ordered" and "real" aren't concepts, but "well-ordered set" and "real number" are. This, however, is unproductive in a dictionary; "real number" is using a perfectly ordinary sense of "real", the same one you get in "real solution", "real root", "real coefficient", etc. in a mathematical context. —Ruakh_TALK 14:19, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep per real number. DAVilla 05:54, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete; This isn't the same as real number, since "the reals" has become a contracted form, the primary meaning of real is not being used in that word, and "number" has more than one meaning even in a mathematical context. For well-ordered, there is a single precise definition in mathematics and even the everyday use is not far different. In math, you can also have a "well-ordered group", "well-ordered ring", "well-ordered field", etc., so it isn't even a case of a single-paired use like real number. --EncycloPetey 20:54, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

On the last point, there's a real line and you can also have a real matrix or the real part (of a complex number or function). It doesn't matter that the primary meaning is used, only the one reasoned pragmatically. Sure, the case may not be strong here, but it's not exactly strong for real number either. Real has only a single definition in mathematics, and number leads you to the correct idea even without that.

We're slicing hairs, and I can understand your logic, how one should be in and the other out. I think the idea that anything well-ordered is necessarily a set is compelling enough to consider this as well, just as I would have kept oblique leaf and others. So I would misrepresent my vote to only say that it were per that example. DAVilla 10:01, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Your discussion has made me conscious of something I was thinking only unconsciouly before. The term "real number" is different because mathematicians view the plural form as a weak proper noun, i.e. they say "the real numbers" to refer to a particular entity. This doesn't happen with "well-ordered set", which is a generic noun in both its singular and plural forms. I think this is why I believe real number merits an entry in a way that the other examples discussed do not. --EncycloPetey 20:45, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Deleted.—msh210℠ 19:42, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I see your point

Not an idiom, as the meaning can be deduced by the literal definition of each word (point can mean view or opinion, as in, "I agree with him. He has a point.")--♠TBC♠ 04:55, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Hard to consider this anything but sum of parts.--Dmol 12:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. An easy case. DCDuring TALK 15:27, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. This particular phrase is only used sarcastically, as the example illustrates. --Connel MacKenzie 21:24, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I dispute that it is only used sarcastically. I have heard it used mostly in the straight, SoP, sense. Sarcasm alone doesn't give an expression its own meaning. It depends for its force on the inherent straight meaning. DCDuring TALK 21:37, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Virtually any phrase like the one nominated can be said sarcastically (I understand you, I know what you mean), but that doesn't really add to the meaning of the term.--♠TBC♠ 23:50, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Sarcastic only might be legitimate grounds in my view, but I agree that this isn't true of this phrase. We all have our own set expressions, and if Connel claims to only use it sarcastically himself then I have no reason to doubt him, but in general I think the sarcastic use is less common. DAVilla 05:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep - only applicable to one of the umpteen sense of point. bd2412 T 01:13, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

How does that merit inclusion? Irregardless of how many senses point has, the phrase still uses a literal definition of the word, and as such, the phrase is not an idiom.--♠TBC♠ 03:49, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Ok, how about this, the particular kind of point to which the phrase refers is one that can not actually be "seen". It's an abstract philosophical concept, so to "see" one's point means something other than to "see" a "point".

That might support keeping this as see one's point, but would not favor keeping the entry under the current name. --EncycloPetey 22:40, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I'd support moving it to see one's point. bd2412 T 23:19, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Seeing does not always refer to physically seeing something. "To understand" is also a sense for "see". As in, "I see what he means", "I see his rationale", "I see why he did this".--TBC 09:21, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Sum of (deprecated template usage) I + (deprecated template usage) see someone's point (with (deprecated template usage) someone = (deprecated template usage) you), and AFAICT usually not used sarcastically (pace Connel). Further, though Jmabel (talk • contribs) is correct in writing, "this phrase is often used as a polite preface to disagreement" (on Talk:I see your point), this is also true of other equivalent phrases with the same basic meaning ((deprecated template usage) I see what you're saying, (deprecated template usage) I get your point, (deprecated template usage) I take your point; even (deprecated template usage) that's true and (deprecated template usage) I agree). —Ruakh_TALK 05:55, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom. (Not only sarcastic.)—msh210℠ 17:18, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom; there is not set phrase since multiple pronouns could be substituted here, and the verb may be inflected: She saw my point; Do you see our point?; We can't see their point; etc. --EncycloPetey 18:14, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. SoP. -- WikiPedant 20:27, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep as phrasebook entry at least. Highly unusual in that "see" and "point" are not the most common words for the selected meanings, while the phrase is so common as to qualify as a speech act. I don't think moving is a good idea because the latter does not apply in any other frame. ("He saw your point"?) Thus the score isn't too bad on either the never mind test or the "mind was crossed" test. Also, compare to "I get the point." There's an admission of concession inherent in this phrase which is more than a sum of its parts. DAVilla 05:44, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

I tell a lie

Not an idiom, as the meaning can be deduced by the literal definition of each word. In other words, it means exactly what it says: to tell a lie.--♠TBC♠ 05:00, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep as set phrase. (I've taken off the rare tag as I hear this frequently) This is idiomatic, as the person saying it has not told a lie, merely admitted an error.--Dmol 12:35, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. Conceivably (but not in my opinion) tell a lie, but certainly not this form. DCDuring TALK 15:15, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I would like to see verification for this meaning if this survives RfD. I've never heard this. Even if we can document that the real meaning is different than the literal meaning, there may be scores of ways to using words meaning "deception" to mean "mistaken". This seems like pragmatics, use-in-social-context. I don't think most meanings-derived-from-pragmatics based on some kind of distance from the ordinary, literal meaning belong in a dictionary. Perhaps there is a name for the rhetorical device, which could be exemplified somewhere. We can't find a good home even for grammatical rules, which are much more invariant across situations than pragmatics-style alteration of meaning. DCDuring TALK 15:26, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I've only heard this conversationally from people who don't speak English as their first language. Since it would be correct to say "Oops, I told a lie" or "Oops, I didn't say that correctly" this is sort-of idiomatic - but pointedly incorrect (presumably because it sounds cute.) Weak delete. --Connel MacKenzie 21:20, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep, slightly idiomatic as above. I've added some cites. Conrad.Irwin 22:11, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Can only be used in "I" form? DCDuring TALK 23:49, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

In the sense that I've cited, yes. Conrad.Irwin 00:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Honestly, the phrase sounds more like Engrish than an idiom (as mentioned above, conversationally it should be told a lie, not tell).--♠TBC♠ 23:57, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

That's why I think it is idiomatic. It's certainly in use by professional authors, as shown on the citations page. Conrad.Irwin 00:12, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

But it's not used as Engrish in the examples you've cited. Since the three quotes come from passages written in first person, "I tell a lie" would be grammatically appropriate, thus the phrase isn't an idiom (at least, not in that context).--♠TBC♠ 00:20, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Idiomatic, keep. "I tell a lie" has a different meaning from "I told a lie" or "I lied" or "I’ve told a lie". Actually, it’s closer to "I lied", but, unlike "I lied", is entirely without guile. I think it’s much more common in the UK, but I hear it in the U.S. from time to time. —Stephen 17:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

The dominant word here is lie, which is listed as An intentionally false statement; a falsehood. In this term, there is nothing false, merely an admission that an error was made. Therefore it is idiomatic.--Dmol 19:20, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

But lie can also refer to "conveying a false image or impression", which seems to be the sense of lie used in this phrase.--TBC 20:23, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep - in the UK this is used in conversation to correct a spoken statement that the speaker immediately realizes is wrong. "I went to the barbers last Tuesday. No, I tell a lie, it was last Monday." SemperBlotto 21:21, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep with {{mainly|UK}} tag. I may have heard "I lie" used in this manner a few times over the decades in the US and Canada, but I don't think "I tell a lie" qualifies as a set phrase on this side of the pond. -- WikiPedant 03:58, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Also, add [[I lie]], which definitely exists in the U.S. —Ruakh_TALK 20:01, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Strong Delete - This is just a assembly of English words that are already defined elsewhere. In traditional dictionaries, this would simply be a usage entry under the verb to lie - it wouldn't have its own entry. I see no difference between this expression and "correct me if I'm wrong", "on second thought" or "what I meant to say was". Should all of these have their own dictionary-style entries? not if anyone is ever to take Wiktionary seriously as a reference source. M0thr4 09:21, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

The word lie, as used in this expression (as a noun), is NOT defined. There is no intention to deceive, rather an admission of error. That is the basis of this being idiomatic. The other examples you give are literal. As for it being a set phrase, compare "I tell a lie"'s 38,000 web hits with barely a 100 for "I tell a fib" of "I tell an untruth".--Dmol 09:36, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

On second thought is a shoo-in. Seriously, who counts thoughts?

Not sure about the other two. DAVilla 09:29, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Weak keep. Seems to be a speech act (not one that I've heard but one that's cited and others attest to). Otherwise, DCDuring's argument of pragmatics makes some sense. DAVilla 05:28, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Strong Keep. SemperB has nailed it exactly. It is a very UK English expression, much more common in spoken usage than written, as it refers to an immediately recognised spoken error. It is a set phrase, and idiomatic, as the sense of lie (unintentional error) is not, and cannot be, included in lie. -- Algrif 12:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard this as a set phrase myself, but I trust the Rightpondians and say keep.—msh210℠ 22:28, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Semper. This is an idiomatic expression in the UK with common enough use that I've heard it on the telly in the US. --EncycloPetey 20:49, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Like SemperBlotto says, this does not mean "I am lying", but rather, "I am mistaken", and is certainly idiomatic. — Paul G 11:53, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 19:44, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

dominant image

SoP, dominant + image. The image most dominant out of a group of images.--♠TBC♠ 12:06, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete as sum of parts.--Dmol 12:44, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete unless someone can find attestable non-SoP meaning quickly. DCDuring TALK 15:29, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep; not sum of parts. This is not an image that is dominant, but a portion of an image that is most prominent, and not always a visible image. --EncycloPetey 10:10, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep per EP. DAVilla 03:36, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Cursorily, I'm not seeing hits for this, but as far as RFD goes, I'll say keep per EP.—msh210℠ 22:32, 23 July 2008 (UTC)

If that's true, then we might move this to RFV after this discussion. If it can't be cited, then it doesn't matter, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility of use in books on psychology or the arts. --EncycloPetey 20:46, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Kept (no consensus after a month) and sent to RFV.—msh210℠ 19:48, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

epicaricacy

This has previously failed with several spelling variations in the past. Resubmitted again without citations, this is a shoot on sight, still, right? Perhaps if more admins paid attention to it... --Connel MacKenzie 21:17, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

See also Wiktionary:Tea_room#epicaricacy. delete This hasn't yet been shown to meet CFI, despite considerable efforts by several people. We should keep the citations page though, as it does contain useful information. Conrad.Irwin 21:30, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

• I am ambivalent about this one, but to be fair it's not true to say that it is "without citations". They are on the Citations:epicaricacy space. Widsith 12:45, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It has three cites. It certainly can't be shoot-on-sight. How are the cites unsatisfactory? Groups is going to make many of these words rarely (never?) used in print more likely to find some real usage in durably cited media. DCDuring TALK 20:36, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Red Baron

Both senses listed can be applied to any famous person associated with a certain field. For example, "he's the da Vinci of our time" can refer to a talented painter, "he's the Bill Gates of the microprocessor industry" can refer to a talented entrepreneur, and so on.--♠TBC♠ 00:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete per nom.--Dmol 09:01, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment - I'm undecided about this one. If "Red Baron" was a person's full name, I would support the delete, but this isn't a person's full name, it's a nickname. Someone may find context-free quotes that would support keeping this item. --EncycloPetey 10:08, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

But regardless of whether the name is real or a nickname, it's still a case of comparison to a single actual person. The name Red Baron (to the best of my knowledge) is not indicitive of anything. BTW, I've read the book written by the Red Baron, and other books about him, so I'm sure I would have spotted this use over time. Cite or delete.--Dmol 10:50, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Real person he may have been, but that doesn't mean he hasn't been mythologized. Some real people are so remember for their deeds (either good or bad) that they become mythic figures. I agree though, this might be better suited for a discussion at RfV, where it can either be cited or deleted. If it can't be cited, then the whole issue is moot. --EncycloPetey 18:10, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete - Nicknames, no matter how famous, really belong in an encyclopedia. This entry shows exactly why, as the definitions are rather contrived, contain no citations and are entirely idiomatic. That last point suggests that the only dictionary this belongs in is a dictionary of idioms (although the current "Oxford English Dictionary of Idioms" does not have an entry for "Red Baron"). M0thr4 09:14, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Strong keep. Not his real name, first off, and it's so obviously well-known that an RFV is almost pointless. Does anyone doubt figurative use exists? Rewrite the definition to say who he was, but also what's significant about him so that the analogies can be understood. DAVilla 04:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

• Keep, a bgc search for "the red baron of" -Richthofen clearly shows figurative use. Thryduulf 14:36, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

the rain in Spain falls mainly in the plain

Not idiomatic.—msh210℠ 21:48, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Comment. Discussion at Talk:park the car in Harvard Yard may be relevant. (It was never listed here so far as I know, but it did pass RFV, and some of the discussion there was RFD-ish.) Also, if it matters, a more common version is (deprecated template usage) the rain in Spain falls mainly on the plain. —Ruakh_TALK 00:40, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Long-term widespread use. Arguements made for "park the car...etc" could also apply here. It's not a matter of it being idiomatic or not.--Dmol 20:42, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

PS, maybe should be a redirect to "... on the plain", as this is far more common.--Dmol 15:05, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. This is a set phrase that I could imagine an English learner being confused by and wanting to look up. --EncycloPetey 20:40, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Well-known and absolutely non-harmning for our dictionary. If people by accident or by searching should come over it, I reckon they would be delighted to see that it is included. It also gives relevant information that isn't a given. --Eivind (t) 07:24, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Atomic, has meaning beyond its literal meaning, therefore it's idiomatic. DAVilla 09:11, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Inasmuch as I'm a hardcore deletionist, I think this entry has distinct merit for the reasons already stated. While atypical to be sure, I think this is something people may want to look up, and I can't see how allowing it to remain will open the doors for a bunch of stuff we don't want. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 09:22, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Kept.—msh210℠ 19:52, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

posthumous execution

There was previously an RFD request on this, but it was withdrawn. I'd like to restore the request, as I think the term is SOP: for example, google books:"posthumous public execution" also gets a few hits, and google books:"execution of his corpse" gets one, and the related google books:"executed posthumously" gets a good number. Also, the current definition makes it sound like this has nothing to do with the normal senses of (deprecated template usage) execution, but as w:Posthumous execution makes clear, the term is used specifically when the body is "executed" in a way that would actually be used for execution — hanging, beheading, crucifixion, shooting, etc. All told, I think this is simply a less-common sense of (deprecated template usage) execute and (deprecated template usage) execution that's missing from those entries, together with a clarifying adjective, and not a phrase unto itself warranting inclusion in a dictionary. (I'm open to contrary opinions, however.) —Ruakh_TALK 14:58, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

How strange. Ammended execution. DAVilla 06:27, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Pokemons

The correct plural is Pokemon (or the official spelling, Pokémon), no? Teh Rote 21:20, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect, but still quite common. Weak keep as a mis-spelling or non-standard spelling.--Dmol 21:27, 19 July 2008 (UTC)

From what I gather, Pokemons is a tongue-in-cheek "Engrish" way of referring to Pokemon. Not sure whether or not that merits inclusion, though.--TBC 21:35, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Dmol. Circeus 23:41, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

management turnover

Seems to be tosh.—msh210℠ 21:03, 24 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete But, it could be a euphemism, of the kind we sometimes keep when appearing in more congenial and familiar contexts. This illustrates a slippery slope problem with ascribing meanings deeper than surface, IMO. DCDuring TALK 20:15, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

DAB

Translingual section (transliteration of a cuneiform sign). If I remember correctly, we don't do transliterations unless native speakers use them. Could be wrong, but I think all the native speakers died well before Latin characters were invented, so..... -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 06:40, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Not sure. I seem to remember a discussion about extinct languages regularly written in transcription in scholarly works. I think it was a discussion about Egyptian hieroglyphics or perhaps Coptic, but I can't locate it. Anyone else remember something of this that might help locate the discussion? --EncycloPetey 08:09, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if this is relevant, but we're currently using transliterations for a number of ancient languages whose scripts are not yet unicode supported, such as hieroglyphics and the Tocharians. However, it is my understanding that this is a temporary measure, until those scripts become supported. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 08:14, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep Yes, it is typical for Akkadian, or Assyro-Babylonian cuneiform signs to be Latinised and I doubt strongly that the questionmark appearing as ("the Cuneiform sign ? ") could ever be comprehensive for anyone. There are transition rules and lists with original and Latinised signs, but in none of the two or three I had seen were the cuneiform signs digitalised, but instead rendered with the help of images, which are the only sensible way (hitherto) for Akkadian, Ugaritic and Eblaite and since original cuneiform signs are absent from Unicode (now and in foreseeable future) and the Latin correspondence is the only wise to reach the original source (in digitalised texts, printing books is another matter) besides .png, .tiff or whatsoever images, I oppose the deletion. Bogorm 22:31, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete Cuneiform is present in Unicode, in all it's glorious varieties of signs as they evolved merged to the same code points which should in theory be handled at the font-level (imagine Phoenician and Greek alpha and Latin 'a' all to be handled at font-display level!!) But it will take a lots of time until all the switches inside the {{Xsux}} get proper font support. Ugaritic is also present at unicode (see Appendix:Ugaritic abjad). The policy is to write languges in original script, and creating dozens of ===Transliteration=== redirects for every phonetic transcription of 𒁳 that was reconstructed to be used for writing languages in 3 different families (IE, Semitic and Sumerian which is language isolate) would not be reasonable, as the 𒁳 is already reachable by using usual search on DAB [32] --Ivan Štambuk 23:16, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

I do not know about which Unicode you are talking, but my OS based on UTF-16 is displaying but questionmarks and I do not dare to know what happens to the users with OS relying on UTF-8, but if you speak of some imaginary UTF-256, yes, perchance the Akkadian and Eblaite cuneiforms may be included there. As for now, leaving the reader with the questionmarks alone and with not image represantation would be too merciless. In addition, Burmese alphabet, wherever I come across it in Wikipedia, is too rendered as questionmarks and I am sure that if Unicode does not comprise a living language spoken by 40 000 000, one should be far more cautious in what concerns ancient ones. Bogorm 08:40, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Bogorm, you have already established on numerous occasions that you cannot see (or cannot see properly) a great number of scripts that others can. Thus, I think that the fact that you cannot see something is not great evidence that no one can see it. However, with the pending discussion concerning transliterations, I think we should hold off on deleting this. Inasmuch as I would very much like to see this entry go away, if the community decides that transliteration entries are something we want........then I have no power to stop them......much to my chagrin. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 09:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I am using a quite modern operating system(from the current decade), live in a European Union state and cannot see this rare, advanced and complicated scripts. Have you ever thought that readers of Wiktionary with even older software should not be repelled from Wiktionary, that in India and Africa there are innumerable users of Windows 98 or Windows 95, when no Unicode was in question at all and that they deserve at least a little bit of mercy from self-conceit users from developped countries (not all of them are such, hopefully you neither) ? Transliteration entries for languages outside Unicode (UTF-8) should at any cost be preserved in order to show understanding for the mentioned users and because one ought not to embrace any innovation and to impose it on others. Bogorm 09:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I can only pity users of Win9x and other non-Unicode OSes. There are several free and Unicode compliant cuneiform fonts available on the Web, one trivial search query away, for anybody to use. There should probably be some kind of appendix discussing these "obscure fonts", where to get them and how to install them, on language-specific basis, and this was already partially discussed in BP for some Old Persian entries. One special problem with cuneiform is that it cannot be really "transliterated" as one sign had lots of (reconstructed) phonetic values in various languages it was used, so what gives DAB more prominence than DIB, not to mention akkadian sequence of dib, dip, dab, dap, tib, tip, ṭib, ṭip listed in the entry? Search on transliteration cupled with the keyword of "cuneiform" or "sumerian" yields proper-script entry immediately, usually as the first search result, so it shouldn't be out of reach of anyone willing to utilize his brain cells instead of figuring out how to copy/paste Akkadian.otf to his %WINDIR%\Fonts folder.. --Ivan Štambuk 10:37, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

drug addict

SOP? -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 15:33, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete. —Ruakh_TALK 16:10, 27 July 2008 (UTC)

On second thought, abstain. Per DAVilla, this is pronounced with word-stress (like a three-syllable word with stress on the first syllable), which suggests it's a fixed expression; but the same is true of "heroin addict", "cocaine addict", "sugar addict", and so on. All told, I don't know what to make of it. It's almost as though "addict" were a combining form. —Ruakh_TALK 20:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep tightly bound compound noun. DAVilla 06:19, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep, per DAVilla.--Dmol 07:55, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep, mostly because translations of the noun into other languages would be interesting. --Eivind (t) 08:06, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

People can be addicted to legal or illegal drugs. Does drug addict imply the latter, or does it apply equally to either? If it implies addiction to illegal drugs, I'd say keep as idiomatic.—msh210℠ 17:30, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Good point. I added "especially to illegal drugs" to the defn, since I believe this is the more usual connotation. Assuming this is correct, I'd say keep. -- WikiPedant 19:25, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

I think it applies equally to both; looking through google books:"prescription drug addict", google books:"drug addict" pain, etc., I find plenty of instances where it's applied to legal drugs. —Ruakh_TALK 20:20, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

You're right that such usages exist, Ruakh, but I've got my doubts about "equally", although it would take prodigious analysis of the usage of this widely-used term to prove the point conclusively. However, we don't ordinarily refer to alcoholics or smokers as drug addicts, even if they are addicted to the legal toxin of their choice. Also, the fact that some writers see fit to use the qualifier "prescription" in the term "prescription drug addict" suggests that they see "drug addict" by itself as requiring qualification when legal drugs are at issue (while I doubt that one would feel an equal need to say "banned drug addict"). I also suspect that "prescription drug addicts" sometimes (not infrequently) procure their supply illictly (unless they are wealthy and have compliant doctors, as Elvis did). Considering all of this, maybe I'll be bold and try tweaking the defn a little more. -- WikiPedant 15:14, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, to clarify, I think there's a general tendency for "drug(s)" to mean "illegal drug(s)", but insofar as "drugs" can mean "prescription drugs a person might be addicted to", "drug addict" can mean "a person addicted to prescription drugs". I don't think it's a lexical property of "drug addict" that the drugs in question tend to be illegal. (For your example: it's true that alcoholics and smokers aren't considered "drug addicts", but if I say "he takes drugs", or "he was transporting drugs across state lines", or "he had an open container of drugs", you'd be very surprised to learn I meant alcohol — even though two of those only really make sense for alcohol.) —Ruakh_TALK 16:01, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

evil laugh

Seems Sop to me. DCDuring TALK 02:36, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Not to me. Villains can be evil, but a laugh can't be by any of the usual definitions. It is a laugh uttered evily, and so does not follow the expected construction. --EncycloPetey 02:38, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

That's absurd. There are all sorts of things which are "evil" in that sense: an evil look, an evil smile; or how about a relieved sigh. This is a standard construction, whereby an action is not the adjective itself, but betrays it in the actor in some way. Delete as SOP. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 02:51, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's called (deprecated template usage) hypallage. Still, it seems like (deprecated template usage) evil laugh is a fairly specific kind of laugh; a laugh can be evil-sounding, or driven by evil, without being an evil laugh per se. (I'd say the same of (deprecated template usage) evil look, BTW, which I think means roughly the same as (deprecated template usage) dirty look, just more intense.) —Ruakh_TALK 10:45, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

It seems as if, to avoid the entry being merely SoP, the headword was given only a very specific meaning. It lacks the appropriate context tags and evidence that it is actually used in the way defined. Does this need to be RfVed ? DCDuring TALK 16:22, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete per others.—msh210℠ 17:32, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete as SoP.--Dmol 17:40, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete as SoP. Improve the definition at evil. Otherwise we open the door to evil X. -- Algrif 18:04, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Delete per above. Very different from dirty look, which relies on a particularly unintuitive sense of "dirty". bd2412 T 22:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Keep. I believe this to be an idiomatic term. It is being used extensively in online chat communications interchangably with muahaha (*evil laugh*). I'm not sure it would be easy to find find good quotations for this, but nevertheless, I do believe this term has merit and should be kept. __meco 22:46, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

It ought to be citable in Groups if it has the merit you suggest. Citations illustrating that kind of use would pretty much eliminate any grounds for deletion. DCDuring TALK 23:14, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

This search confirms it. __meco 08:23, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Once the sense is cited this matter can be put to rest. DCDuring TALK 11:04, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

I added citations for the newly created interjection section. __meco 18:42, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

So the entry and the interjection look good. What about the noun? Anyone? The rationale has to be that it means something more than an evil-sounding laugh, because the individual words combined mean that. Do folks actually refer to the "mwahaha" laugh as "evil laugh"? Do sound editors say "I inserted evil laugh over the fade." DCDuring TALK 19:39, 3 August 2008 (UTC)

Not quite idiomatic, but certainly something that would go in "Coordinate terms", a little used header. Circeus 23:40, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete - neological slang without any literary background. Bogorm 22:15, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Our criteria for inclusion at WT:CFI do not exclude slang or words "without any literary background." I have amended the rfd to rfd-sense because the interjection sense seems to be cited and not SoP as cited. The noun still seems SoP to me, but there may be a non-SoP sense to be provided and cited. DCDuring TALK 00:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I think we must reset this discussion. I assume now that there is only a motion to delete the noun sense. Could you set up a demarcation and open a separate vote on it? (Actually, the interjection section was created after this phrase was nominated for deletion) __meco 09:27, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually the substance of the original rfd remains the issue. The tag is different to make it clearer to reader and the admin closing our the discussion what is being questioned. I doubt that the discussion will be closed out imminently. DCDuring TALK 11:33, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I have cited it and redefined it in line with the citations, deleting the usage example. Both the original definition and the usage example still seem SoP to me. If they are reinstated. they should be challenged. The sole justificaton for keeping an SoP sense would be to contrast the CFI-meeting sense with the SoP sense to avoid confusion in the user. I don't know that it is a concern in this case. DCDuring TALK 12:05, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

point of the compass

I'm not really into what goes as "sum of parts" and not, but for me this really looks like a noun being the sum of its parts. --Eivind (t) 15:55, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Huh? It's not a literal sharp point on a drawing compass; it's one of the 16 cardinal directions marked on a navigational compass. The definition could certainly be improved, but it's not merely SoP. --EncycloPetey 16:44, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

I would agree .... except that we already have compass point. How about a redirect, if you don't want to delete? -- Algrif 16:48, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Well, no-one said "point" is a "sharp point". "Compass point" is one of the definitons for "point", therefore I reckoned "point of the compass" must be the sum of its parts. --Eivind (t) 16:57, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Once one is talking about a compass, then isn't the specific sense of "point" obvious and, therefore, isn't it SoP? DCDuring TALK 17:19, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

Either keep as is or redirect to compass point. You can’t translate point of the compass into other languages simply by the individual words, you have to look up the specific phrase (or compass point). —Stephen 17:27, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

To answer DCDuring's "point". :-) It is useful to distinguish the various meanings of N,S,E, and W. They can be geographical, magnetic, or compass points(for instance). So, although your argument is thought provokingly good, the term compass point is still needed, as there are situations where the compass has not been mentioned. However, I am behind you all the way if we are talking about point of the compass -- Algrif 18:00, 29 July 2008 (UTC)

• delete or redirect (it's not a set phrase in the way that compass point is). Ƿidsiþ 12:49, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

Ɂ

Not an IPA letter, but used in some Canadian languages. There's already an article at the correct title ʔ. -- Prince Kassad 19:26, 30 July 2008 (UTC)

My list calls this a "capital letter glottal stop". If it is used in some languages, it certainly should be kept and explained. Or at the very least, redirect it to ʔ. —Stephen 17:14, 31 July 2008 (UTC)

It's discussed at w:Glottal stop (letter), which confirms it is a valid glyph. Other IPA letter with capital variant are ɛ (Ɛ, Latin epsilon), ɑ (Ɑ, Latin alpha) and ə (Ə or Ǝ, the schwa). Circeus

August 2008

claret-coloured

I'm willing to stretch the sum-of-part when appropriate, but this is just ridiculous. Circeus 21:05, 4 August 2008 (UTC)

There are large number of such compound color words that appear as redlinks in Chinese entries. Should the brackets be removed? DCDuring TALK 15:29, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

(having not found any in a minute or so of looking ;-) but since that is likely to be a one-word definition, they should be linked; e.g. [[claret]]-[[coloured]] yes? Robert Ullmann 15:53, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I can't find what I thought I recollected. I will let you know if I rediscover what I was {mis-?)remembering. DCDuring TALK 17:32, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

On the issue itself: most people would not think of "claret" as a colour name, (given that they know what claret is at all ..), and it does occur with some frequency. We wouldn't delete rose-coloured would we? That, or course being a bit different, roses come in a wide range of colours, but "rose-coloured" means a specific one. And it has a derived meaning. We do have rose-coloured glasses. No? Oh dear, and that is certainly idiomatic. Robert Ullmann 16:02, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete SoP. There must be quite a few cases similar to rose-coloured. E.g. biscuit-coloured Biscuits also come in many types and colours, but the expression refers to one colour. The problem with claret is that it is just one colour, which makes claret-coloured SoP, I think.
(Aside: yes we should have rose-coloured glasses and a mention of rose-tinted glasses too, perhaps?) -- Algrif 17:11, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

But the problem is that there are many, many "-coloured" terms where the suffix has been tacked onto a noun. I don't think that we can use the specificity of the term to argue for keeping it. It may merit keeping on some other grounds, but not on the basis of specificity, otherwise we would keep asphalt-coloured, wood-coloured, copper-coloured, and any other "-coloured" term where the noun exhibits some degree of variation in shade. BTW, I've never heard the term "biscuit-coloured", so I assume it's a UK expression only (regardless of spelling). --EncycloPetey 01:00, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

You have a valid point, so a cut-off might be needed. However, most can be decided quickly. For example copper noun sense 3, like claret is already used to define a particular colour / color. :-) so both claret-colo(u)red and copper-colo(u)red are SoP. Asphalt-coloured would need to be RFV'd, I think. Wood-coloured would probably pass RFV, and as wood can be anything from black to white, passing through various shades of brown, I think it makes it past SoP, as the actual colour most people think of would be a light brown to dark beige kind of colour. I think they would be useful entries, if treated properly, even if there are quite a few possibilities to be considered. -- Algrif 15:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete this one at least, and deal with others per the comments above.—msh210℠ 20:55, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

having eaten one's fill

SoP, even after being put in lemma form. DCDuring TALK 15:26, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

I agree. Delete. -- Algrif 17:00, 5 August 2008 (UTC)

Idiomatic. Move to eat one's fill. —Stephen 15:06, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

If the following is a sense of "fill", how is this an idiom?

fill: 1. A sufficient or more than sufficient amount.

Don't feed him anymore, he's had his fill.

There may be some unstated criterion that we should have for idioms, but I don't get what exisying criterion would include this term. DCDuring TALK 15:53, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

I think it’s unusual and idiomatic. There are a number of expressions where you can use "one’s fill" this way, but not many. To translate it into another language, you really need to look up the complete term. If you translate eat + one’s + fill into any language that I know, you’ll get nonsense. German would be sich satt essen or abfressen. Russian would be наедаться (where на- gives the sense of satiety). In Portuguese, I’d say comer o que quiser. In Spanish, I think I’d say comer bien or hartarse. In French, it would be manger tout son content. The only one that comes close to the same construction as the English is the German [sich satt essen]] (to eat oneself sated), but translating the individual English words as though they were SoP will always give a bad result. —Stephen 18:02, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

Maybe we need to formalize a translation-target criterion in some way and vote it in. SGB certainly brings it up often enough ;-)) Multiple languages from a single family or uber-family or at least 2 uber-families or 3 families ? DCDuring TALK 19:58, 6 August 2008 (UTC)

be bound to

bound to

Both of these seem to be direct consequences of the adjective senses of bound#Etymology 1 and possibly misconstructions. Should they be redirects to the section of bound? DCDuring TALK 18:31, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

They need entries, as previously discussed (somewhere), because of the use as an alternative to must in the sense of logical conclusion, where there could be ambiguity with must meaning obligation. The phrase is always in a form of be + bound + to followed by the bare infinitive. It forms part of the modal series. -- Algrif 16:55, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

What I viscerally dislike is the incorporation of what I have learned is a part of the infinitive ("to") into this entry. I find it OK to occasionally split an infinitive in usage, but not to so do in a headword. To me, this is a bit different from phrasal verbs because the prepositions are not part of a PoS as to is part of the infinitive. Without the "to", neither entry would have value, unless we start adding entries for passives (if that is a valid way of interpreting "be bound").

I have an old idioms book that shows "bound to" and "be bound to" at "bound", but I vastly prefer the way Longman's DCE presents it at "bound" with context-like notation indicating the required infinitive, something like what we now have at bound#Adjective. I can't see any reason not to have that at "bound", whatever is decided about these entries. If we help 2 users per entry per year, I'm down with it. DCDuring TALK 17:33, 8 August 2008 (UTC)

I wouldn't rely too much on gut reactions. Modal verbs, which is what we are considering here, are normally followed by the bare infinitive. (Example at the start of this paragraph.) So, just as ought to = should and both are followed by the bare infinitive, this is a case of be bound to = must also followed by a bare infinitive. A typical modal structure. The example given at bound Adjective is particularly good one to demonstrate why we need to use be bound to (unique sense; logical conclusion) to avoid the confusion with must (sense; obligation)

I suspect my gut reaction reflects the response of many users. I offer my gut in lieu of any other evidence about user response. My gut is not much cluttered with linguistic knowledge, therefore more qualified in its ignorance to speak for our purported anon user (if that is our target user). ;-) DCDuring TALK 12:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• They are bound to come into conflict eventually. cf: They must come into conflict eventually.
  I have no problem with leaving the entry at bound Adjective, but to eliminate be bound to is to eliminate the most probable search entry, and leave a verb usage of bound hidden away as an adjective, where it is difficult to find, even when you know it is there.
  To summarise; 1) bound is not a modal verb and as a verb it does not mean must. 2) Bound to is not a modal form, it means tied up with rope to a chair, or stuck to something with glue, and does not necessarily mean must (logical conclusion). But the entry is as it is as the result of a previous discussion about this. I disagree with the result, but that's life on the Wikt! The only way to show bound as meaning logical conclusion, equivalent to a disambiguation of must is the entry be bound to. I refer you to any decent grammar book you care to chose on this one. -- Algrif 12:26, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• I don't think users can be assumed to convert to lemma form for search. Usage examples including the forms of "[be] bound to" would very substantially address the need for users to find the correct entry for "bound" (or the other entries - at least if our search worked a little better. What about "seemed bound to" and its synonyms? I offered Collins DCE's approach precisely because they are a dictionary (albeit a grammatically sophisticated one) rather than a reference grammar book. I think that we need to find ways of presenting sophisticated ideas that represent the best understanding of language and present it so that it is useful for the target user. These entries seemed to me to be a waste. I suppose they might help someone, but they led to neglect of providing useful information at bound. We may just need to have multiple locations for the information and hope that search will find one of them for a user. DCDuring TALK 12:56, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

  PS, I am unable to locate the previous discussion of this. DCDuring TALK 13:00, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Can't find it either, even though I participated. It was probably a sub discussion. I'll try to find it for you later. I think the entry be bound to should stay, and is useful, for all the reasons I've mentioned. I do not agree that looking up bound is going to get anyone anywhere near the correct meaning of the phrase be bound to = logical conclusion, unless there is is a link from one to the other, of course. And I must question the idea that these entries are "a waste". A waste of what? On that basis, we can have a spree with be able to, have to, ought to, going to, etc. That aside, I am working (using the term very loosely ;-)) on a Modal appendix. The term will be there also, along with some other similar phrases that are used modally. I believe modals are such an important part of English. Native speakers take them for granted, forgetting that they express so much more than just the surface. -- Algrif 14:05, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

"Waste" was my initial reaction. I appreciate the points made, including Widsith's below. I will work to make sure that the component words also contain clues about the phrasal senses, but will be much more selective in my challenges for less usual, long-standing phrasal usages like this. I wouldn't have done so if there were a discussion or a link to a discussion on the entry talk page. Our search engine doesn't even support our needs, let alone our users.

Also, would it make sense to include an explicit etymology section in such entries pointing to the best section of the main component words' entries? I find the logic of language evolution more economical of thought and memory than grammar rules. DCDuring TALK 14:36, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• The fact that it includes "part of the infinitive" is just a reflection of the way it is used, ie often with the following verb only implied. Consider "Do you think she'll come tonight?" "Oh yes, she's bound to." Ƿidsiþ 14:13, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• But consider also "She's bound". The usage, whether you care to think of it as "bound" + "to infinitive", or "bound to" + "bare infinitive" is a modal use of the word which is only apparent in that exact structure. It is much clearer if the term "bound to" is considered as what it is, a modal, and as such, is followed by the bare infinitive. Grammar is "invented after the fact" in an attempt to put order to something that is basically disordered. So this is just the kind of rule that has less exceptions if you consider the phrase + bare infinitive to be a typically modal construction. And from experience working with learners of English, the expectation is just this. Learners check out phrases such as ought to rather than ought. going to rather than going. And so on. -- Algrif 15:04, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

• My view is that we should delete the content at bound to but keep the page and refer people to the appropriate section of bound. To me it seems weird to have "bound to" listed as an "adjective". What about "delighted to", "happy to", "obliged to" etc.? Are these all adjectives? Where does it end? Matt 20:31, 12 August 2008 (UTC).

Which is why, in the end, the preferred entry is be bound to, because it is a verbal entry representing a modal verb usage. This entry has nothing in common with the standard "adjective + to inf", because of it's modal sense. -- Algrif 12:41, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I definitely see where you're coming from, but since "seem|seems|seeming|seemed bound to", "look|looks|looking|looked bound to", etc. are so well attested, I don't think that's ideal. (Not the end of the world — we could create redirects to [[be bound to]], with appropriate usage notes — but not ideal.) —Ruakh_TALK 15:44, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

I forget the correct term for these state verbs that can substitute be. Later edit. linking verbs. But that argument applies to nearly all the be + something entries. seems (etc) able to, seem (etc) as cool as a cucumber, and so on. I have often wondered what, if anything, could be done about that. -- Algrif 16:28, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Having an entry for verbal "be bound to" makes more sense to me than calling "bound to" an adjective. I confess I didn't notice that "be bound to" was also listed as a part of this deletion request. But is there a fundamental difference between "be bound to" and "be delighted to", "be obliged to" etc.? Or should there (ideally) be separate entries for all these? Matt 20:57, 14 August 2008 (UTC)~.

There is a fundamental difference, yes. I am delighted to attend is a simple SoP statement. I am bound to attend does NOT mean that I have been tied up before attending, nor does it mean that I have made any promise, or any of the other meanings of bound. It means that MY OPINION is that IT IS LOGICAL that I will not miss the function. In other words, it is a modal verb in effect (similar to must), and as such, is not "adjective + to infinitive" and therefore is not SoP. -- ALGRIF talk 09:51, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, indeed, it doesn't mean "tied up"! But I don't have any problem parsing "I am bound to..." with "bound" as an adjective meaning something similar to "sure" (a seemingly reasonable extension of its literal meaning). In fact, both Collins and M-W online dictionaries explain the "bound to" usage under adjective "bound". I agree, though, that there doesn't seem to be any other way to use "bound" with exactly this adjectival meaning. Matt 20:43, 17 August 2008 (UTC).

Personally speaking, I don't even think that this adjectival definition is valid. One day (not now) I will argue the case more forcefully. For the moment, just worth noting that "a bound noun" and "this noun is bound" never have the sense under discussion. The same goes for "a bound to noun" and "this noun is bound to" (where the "to" becomes a preposition, doesn't it?, if we are talking about entry "bound to"). It would be interesting to compare how these other dictionaries deal with be able to, by the way. -- ALGRIF talk 11:07, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

nah

We don't do ISO 639 language codes as entries, do we. Or would they have to be rfv'd? DCDuring TALK 19:48, 7 August 2008 (UTC)

We do, see for example de or en -- Prince Kassad 18:38, 10 August 2008 (UTC)

mozy

Just a misspelling of mosey. A OneLook search comes up with no hits for this sense. I don't think it even qualifies as nonstandard. -- WikiPedant 05:27, 11 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete. google books:"mozy|mozying|mozies|mozied along" gets only 3 hits, compared to 665 for google books:"mosey|moseying|moseys|moseyed along". —Ruakh_TALK 17:56, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete - we can not afford wasting resources for misspellings made by uneducated people. And the misspelling of a slang word goes forsooth too far. Bogorm 22:38, 15 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Is it in use? Yes. Is it citable? Yes (see Ruakh's link above). Is it rare? Yes. But 574 Google web hits, ~ 100 blog hits, and ~ 15 group hits show me that it certainly exists. sewnmouthsecret 20:11, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

We don't include rare misspellings. —Ruakh_TALK 23:14, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

It's not that I want or don't want to keep this term; I just want things to make sense logically. Per CFI, this term is OK to keep as long as it is cited. There is nothing that states we do not include rare misspellings. A term should be included if it's likely that someone would run across it and want to know what it means. People may run across it. It is attested and used in permanently recorded media.

Furthermore, when searching b.g.c. for "mozy", it yields 688 hits.

The first 6 pages of hits alone allow one to expand to 5 different adjective senses on top of the verb sense (which I shall add).

Point is, one can't pick and choose which words stay or go because one feels a word is a misspelling, especially when CFI says nothing about it. sewnmouthsecret 15:57, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

There are four spellings: mosey, mozey, mosy, mozy, approximately in that order of frequency on bgc. We should be relieved that mosie and mozie aren't also in use in bgc material. "Mozy" might (barely) be attestable basede on bgc hits, but most hits are not for the verb or anything else that we are likely to feel compelled to have an entry for. "Mosy" is sometimes a last name or a nickname or a scanno. If we don't have explicit standards for what makes something a misspelling or an alternative spelling, the four forms would seem to have equal standing under our policies. "Mosey" is the only one of these that is in the OneLook dictionaries, suggesting that other dictionaries can find a rationale for excluding such forms. At least one "z" form would be good inclusion, because a user might well type "moz" in searching for the word as heard in a movie or speech. "moz" would yield mozey if we troubled to enter that more attestable form. DCDuring TALK 16:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Our standards are CFI, which don't spell out how to handle rare spellings that may or may not be misspellings. As far as a word's standing, that's why we have tags such as {{rare}} and {{archaic}}, among others. As is often stated, we are not other dictionaries. We can include anything that meets our criteria, which, per CFI, this term does. sewnmouthsecret 17:06, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I'm confused. Your comments seem to be at variance with Wiktionary:Criteria for inclusion#Misspellings, common misspellings and variant spellings. —Ruakh_TALK 18:39, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

I think these criteria are fine as far as they go (not far, IMHO). It would be helpful if we had explicit criteria for when something was definitely an alternative spelling or definitely a common misspelling (or even just definitely common or definitely a misspelling). We could still leave a big gray area for what is not so definite. DCDuring TALK 19:37, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Some of the adjectival senses just added to the entry by Sewnmouthsecret seem OK albeit obscure, although I wish s/he had provided a supporting quotation for each. But to suggest that this is a valid alternative spelling of the verb mosey is not credible for me and I still think that we should delete the verb sense. (Pet peeve: Except for slang bordering on nonstandard and words of very recent vintage, I think that it is inappropriate to rely solely or even heavily on g.b.c. hits or blogs. We should rely on writers and sources which are credible exemplars of English usage, which is why I'm biased toward recognized literary sources, academic journals, and prominent news outlets with good standards like Time magazine or the NYT.) -- WikiPedant 21:42, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

My issue here is this: it seems to me that this is a valid alt spelling of mosey. To say it is not credible for you is to say your opinion is to delete it. I would support deleting it if there was no evidence of use, but there is, no matter how obscure. Opinion should not dictate keeping or deleting a term. To be biased towards any given publication is an unnecessary bias, as new terms, alternate meanings, etc. show up in less recognized sources and are often the bastions of language transformation. I will add supporting quotations for all adjective senses, and I will add quotations for the verb sense as well, as the quotations were already linked to above. sewnmouthsecret 20:38, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

The citations Sewnmouthsecret has added for the verb are probably adequate to justify retaining that sense, for now. But I wonder whether this rather thin set of citations may be the result of sporadic misspellings or typesetting errors by the authors or printers. (Such things do happen, and they do not really constitute legitimate alt spellings.) I'd particularly like to get my hands on a couple editions of that Zane Grey novel to see if they all really say "mozy". -- WikiPedant 01:21, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

hasn't one

Over at WT:RFC#hastn't one, user:86.134.55.120 has suggested this be deleted. I have no strong opinion either way, but I've brought it here anyway. Thryduulf 00:07, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Eek, tag questions! While these are limited in number (they are all of the form auxiliary verb + ["not"|"n't" +] pronoun) there are still a huge number of these, and I'm not convinced they belong in Wiktionary. — Paul G 11:36, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

Idiomatic, keep. Useful and interesting once it gets cleaned up. —Stephen 01:19, 13 August 2008 (UTC)

In what way is this idiomatic? It is a simple negative question, tagged onto a statement, asking for someones personal opinion. In other words, a simple question. We might as well put ¿O no? as an idiom in Spanish, mightn't we? (He asked, using a tag question) -- Algrif 12:37, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

If it were not idiomatic, then you should be able to translate it directly into other languages, such as Spanish "¿no ha uno?". And it’s use is not so simple for someone learning English as a second language. I believe the article mentions this in regard to "doesn’t one". —Stephen 15:22, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

Somewhere round about lesson 9, Eng L2 learners are taught tag questions. They are questions tagged on to a statement. To allow this entry means that all the following are also OK. am I , aren't I , are you , aren't you , is he , isn't he, are we , aren't we, are they , aren't they , followed by all the positive and negative combinations with do , have , can , could , shall , should , ought , will , would , may , might , must , need , dare. This is a grammar entry, isn't it?. Make an appendix by all means. It would be a good idea, wouldn't it? But we don't really need all those entries, do we? And anyway they should be followed by a question mark, shouldn't they? -- ALGRIF talk 17:52, 14 August 2008 (UTC)

goating

"Present participle of 'goat'", says the page, but there is no verb listed at goat.

However, "goating" is a noun (a participial noun, to be precise) according to this page. It's not listed in FOLDOC, where you might expect to find it, and [http::/onelook.com onelook] only lists the entry in Witkionary. Anyone have any independent citations? — Paul G 11:33, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I believe that there are two senses to the verb to "goat": "to scapegoat" and "to allow goats to feed on". I'd be appreciative of a verification from the OED. I have seen lots of hits on b.g.c. for "goated" and "goating" but need to make sure that the apparent participles aren't really noun and adjective (which they may additionally be). DCDuring TALK 12:21, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

I have cited a noun sense of goating. DCDuring TALK 12:58, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

The definitions can be improved. The sense of "goating" at the link above seems to relate to the "hazing", "roasting", "pranking" sense recorded in fraternity periodicals. DCDuring TALK 13:02, 12 August 2008 (UTC)

For the record, the OED (2nd ed., 1989) has no entry for "goating" nor does it list "goat" as a verb.

By the way, is it possible that the 1918 verb sense added at goat is a scanno for "go at"? "Goat" seems to fit, but is that correct? — Paul G 07:58, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The OED's varied readers don't seem to have been reading enough boring technical literature and fraternity newletters. I found other quotations that have this verb sense. This one provided, I thought, more context that would reduce ambiguity. Perhaps I was wrong. DCDuring TALK 10:38, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

servabo fidem

This is sum of parts in Latin, and seems to have been added principally because it is a motto used by a US military regiment. This does not strike me as being worthy of inclusion in a dictionary. --EncycloPetey 03:00, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

For someone who is not versed in Latin grammar, it would probably be very difficult to divine the meaning of servabo fidem from servabo and fidem. If we delete servabo fidem, then we need to put real definitions in servabo and fidem, not just a technical grammatical description and link to the lemma. —Stephen 19:58, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

How will adding such definitions help? The form servabo has mutliple meanings, just as the lemma form does. Drowning the entry for servabo with all the possible definitions will not make translation any clearer for someone not versed in Latin grammar. This information would be better included on Wikiquote or Wikipedia. --EncycloPetey 20:26, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

That is why it is better to keep servabo fidem. —Stephen 21:12, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

By your reasoning, we should have an entry for every sentence and phrase found in the corpus of Latin literature. Reductio ad absurdum --EncycloPetey 21:54, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Every common or important phrase. My reasoning does not envelope every sentence and phrase, it only includes those phrases that you think are SoP. SoP only works in a language that you know how to put together. servabo fidem is SoP for people who know Latin or at least know another language with similar grammar, but it is not SoP for most Americans. Therefore, if the only reason for deleting it is SoP, then keep it, because for most people it’s not. —Stephen 01:36, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

But that reasoning would argue for every sentence/phrase. In order to understand any of them, you might need to know some basic things about Latin. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 05:32, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

So you think that every common or important phrase includes not only e pluribus unum, but also "I prefer to add a little extra salt to my broccoli when my mother comes for a visit"? If that’s what you think, then you don’t understand what I’m saying. —Stephen 12:23, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

When you say, "For someone who is not versed in Latin grammar, it would probably be very difficult to divine the meaning of...", that applies to nearly every sentences or phrase. The bit about only important phrases and sentences may have merit. There will certainly be people who want to know what e pluribus unum means without having to figure out Latin grammar. But, I am hesitant to accept such a thing, as I don't think a clear boundary can be set. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 20:01, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete. SOP. The meaning seems fairly discernible from the parts. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:48, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Coming in to this discussion not knowing what the phrase meant, I first looked up servabo and then fidem. Although the basic idea comes across fine, someone wanting to know what it meant would not be able to get an actual translation without including the phrase. sewnmouthsecret 19:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

So, would that mean you'd want to have entry for Cuius ducit filiam? --EncycloPetey 02:27, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, after looking up cuius, ducit, and filiam, I gather it means who/what/which X daughter, X being ducit. So, for right now, I would say include it. sewnmouthsecret 13:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. I don't know how I feel about the "common or important phrase" criterion, and I don't know how common or important this really is (~150 b.g.c. hits); so, I'm erring on the side of keep. —Ruakh_TALK 02:15, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

This phrase isn't idiomatic in the slightest. It's (deprecated template usage) servabo + (deprecated template usage) faith. It's no more idiomatic than comedes pavonem. --EncycloPetey 02:34, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

When I look up servabo, it has watch over, maintain, protect, keep, guard, save, preserve, and store for meanings. When I look up fidem, it has faith, belief, reliance, confidence, and trust. So, if I were looking up the phrase word-by-word, I could conjecture that it could mean I maintain confidence, or I watch over trust, or I guard confidence. That, to me, is idiomatic. sewnmouthsecret 13:58, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I caught that, thanks. :-)   —Ruakh_TALK 02:36, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

...and you noticed that the b.g.c. hits were all of the form "the motto of X is..." and not one of the b.g.c. hits I saw was in a Latin context? They were all books in English, and the vast majority then immediately told the translation. Such citations are usually deemed not to meet the requirements of CFI. --EncycloPetey 02:53, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

The fact that they're used in an English context is a major reason I didn't vote delete. Certainly a phrase found only in Latin texts will only be understood by people who understand Latin grammar; but this has been the motto of various groups and persons in English-speaking countries, and contrary to your experience, I found many examples on b.g.c. that used/mentioned the phrase without providing translation. Relevant specialized dictionaries (dictionaries of mottoes, and dictionaries of classical quotations) do include the phrase, and while I realize that their considerations are in one regard different from ours (since they don't have entries for the constituents), they're also in one regard the same (since they're directed at English-speaking readers who would have difficulty assembling the constituents anyway). —Ruakh_TALK 10:49, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

as for reductio ad absurdum, see also decus et tutamen nemo me impune lacessit and wth all sorts of other mottos like non inultus premor and w:Category:State mottos of the United States & fluctuat nec mergitur & labor omnia vincit & semper fidelis & non pro nobis laboramus & de oppresso liber & so on and so on and so on... 128.252.121.54 18:05, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

jest at

Most unlike me to challenge a possible phrasal verb. But I think this is in fact SoP. -- ALGRIF talk 11:34, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Policing the category definitely increases its legitimacy! DCDuring TALK 12:09, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete; I agree that this does not seem to be a phrasal verb. --EncycloPetey 18:51, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

I guess then you can also talk about scoff at, sneer at and take the mickey out of right away, they have been created in the same run by User:130.226.70.192 / User:All_you_need_is_love. Mutante 18:59, 16 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete all. SemperBlotto 07:29, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

air sport

"any recreational activity performed in the atmosphere" Appears in no OneLook reference word except Wiktionary and Wikipedia. Seems SoP to me unless there is another definition. DCDuring TALK 23:56, 17 August 2008 (UTC)

This needs redefinition, not deletion. All terrestrial sports are performed "in the atmosphere". Basketball is not an "air sport" even though players' bodies may lose contact with the ground. Shooting ducks is not an "air sport" even though the bullet may hit the duck in the air. To my understanding, air sports are those that involve some means of human-powered flight, either as the sport in itself (stunt flying, balloon racing) or as a platform from which to perform (skyboarding or skysurfing, group skydiving). bd2412 T 01:41, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Your understanding would fit with the WP stub article, but also with what one might expect the words to mean, just as we don;t think of an airplane as merely a plane (surface) in the air. Give it your best shot. That other dictionaries don't have makes it more important that we do a good job. It might be a valid category, but I wonder whether it is often used and whether anyone wouldn't instantly guess the meaning. DCDuring TALK 03:33, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Consider, for example, someone who doesn't speak English. Might be easy for you to guess, but for everyone? I'll work on it - at some point. bd2412 T 03:42, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, we do have watersport (I don't know about defn. 2. But since SemperB put it there, I assume it is correct.) -- ALGRIF talk 10:56, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't see a second definition. Single words (former compounds that are spelled solid, like "watersport") are thereby not subject to challenge as SoP. I believe that compelling an English learner to construct the possible meaning of such a collocation is reasonable. It is misleading to treat it as if this were a true idiom. It is the kind of term that is most useful for someone who runs a business serving those who enjoy these activities, such as the apparent spammer w:Airways Airsports. Perhaps it would be useful to put this through RfV to get the cites that would support a meaning, which could then be assessed as to whether it was SoP or not. DCDuring TALK 11:59, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

Re: your last sentence: Unfortunately, this never happens. Citing is a fair bit of effort, and editors aren't always motivated to do it in the best of cases, let alone cases of the form, "Let's see if we can get someone to add three quotations for this. Once we've done that, we can decide whether to delete those quotations. Afterward, we can come up with other ways to waste editors' time." :-P   —Ruakh_TALK 13:25, 18 August 2008 (UTC)

hazah

I think (s)he means huzzah -- ALGRIF talk 18:02, 19 August 2008 (UTC)

aspenglow

Mis-spelling of alpenglow, despite Mr. Denver's song title. - Amgine/^talk 04:10, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Eurochauvinism? Easily citable. Obviously the etymology is from alpenglow, but, what with the Rockies not being Alps and having plenty of aspen to lend color in the Fall, a new word has emerged. DCDuring TALK 00:43, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like an RFV issue. If "easily citable", please do. Cheers! bd2412 T 01:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

I don't like to spend time citing something if there is a non-RfV issue advanced. Since we have no particular rules as to what makes something a misspelling, I am loath to spend time on it until the RfD is resolved. DCDuring TALK 01:24, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

But your defense is that this is a "new word", which guts the premise of the RfD, and makes it an RfV issue. I looked for citations, and found many for "aspen glow" (with the SOP meaning) but not enough as a single word to meet the CFI. bd2412 T 18:56, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Cited. News. Belonged at RfV from the gitgo. I don't like the short fuse of RfD items. DCDuring TALK 19:22, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep per DCDuring's citations. —Ruakh_TALK 16:09, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Ruakh. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 18:35, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Atelaes. bd2412 T 19:03, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

easy target

Sum of parts, no? Teh Rote 21:07, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Not quite. It is not the target itself that is easy, but rather that the target is easy to hit, and it's not always a literal shooting at the target. This seems worth keeping along with easy mark and sitting duck. --EncycloPetey 21:13, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

Our current definition says "easy to be made fun of", which is not the only sense of "easy target"; bgc shows, in its first twenty hits, maybe one or two in that sense. (Note that "an easy target for barbs" in a quotation is not a citations for the sense we have: if "for barbs" is added, then "an easy target" alone doesn't mean "easy to be made fun of".) I think we should delete as SoP the sense EP seems to be referring to above ("an easily hit target"). I also think we should delete as SoP the sense we have, as the "for barbs" part is implied by context rather than being part of the meaning of "easy target".—msh210℠ 21:27, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

I deleted it a bit fast. I have now added it again, but with my own definition. Feel free to improve. SemperBlotto 21:32, 20 August 2008 (UTC)

short cut

rfd-sense: A very short rendition, or snippets, of a film or play, as used in a coming attraction or promotional video.

IOW, (deprecated template usage) short + (deprecated template usage) cut. DCDuring TALK 10:34, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

wikillectual

neologism. --Dilated pupils 20:03, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

also no content, deleted. - [The]DaveRoss 20:04, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Also, not usage, just 2 mentions, only 219 web hits, many based on urban dictionary. DCDuring TALK 21:46, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Category:Sinhala language

There are 2 separately named categories for this language- Category:Sinhala language and Category:Sinhalese language. The first has no content, so it should be deleted to avoid confusion, or move everything into the other category. Nadando 21:38, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete --EncycloPetey 21:39, 21 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep, and rather delete Category:Sinhalese language or change {{sin}} to "Sinhalese." I'm undecided as to which is better. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 21:27, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

This language has a 2-letter ISO code of si, for which we have the template {{si}}. The templates should certainly match, but currently they do not. Template {{si}} says "Sinhalese" while {{sin}} says "Sinhala". --EncycloPetey 22:34, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

damakzevki

Definition poor. Seems like spam for a Turkish domain. DCDuring TALK 21:12, 22 August 2008 (UTC)

arcuate-decurrent

Describes mushroom gills that are in the shape of an arc (arcuate) and run down the stem (decurrent). Couldn't be much more SoP, IMO, but some seem to take that as a dare. DCDuring TALK 00:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

areolate-cracked

Having a pattern of block-like areas areolate similar to cracked dried mud. cracked SoP DCDuring TALK 00:21, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Special:WhatLinksHere/precrire, Special:WhatLinksHere/enregister, Special:WhatLinksHere/pliier

Apparently, a bot gone wrong. --Jackofclubs 12:28, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Also [33] and [34] which look dead to me. --Jackofclubs 12:29, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

• Yes - these are all Wonderfool's bot errors - but he's no longer a sysop, so somebody else will have to delete them. SemperBlotto 21:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

deleted all three sets. - [The]DaveRoss 01:22, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

heavilly

Is this really a "common" misspelling of heavily? Ƿidsiþ 12:50, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

And our standard for commonness would be ... ? DCDuring TALK 13:13, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's a subjective value-judgement. Hence why I was asking for opinion. Ƿidsiþ 13:15, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

I should resist the urge to sieze every opportunity to beat my drums, I suppose. DCDuring TALK 13:42, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

A misspelling, yes. A common one to anyone with more than a basic grasp of the English language, no. Deleted. — This unsigned comment was added by Paul G (talk • contribs) at 07:46, 25 August 2008 (UTC).

veepa

Nothing of note in BGC. nothing of note in BC corpus, nothing in groups...Where did this come from? - [The]DaveRoss 17:12, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete. It must come from veep + -a. Where the "humor" comes from I don't know. Perhaps some kind of pun. There are Web posters by that name, included someone detained during the Republican convention in New York. In Telegu it is a spelling of a word referring to the w:Neem tree. It also seems to have been used in the 19th century to refer to a genus of stinging insects. IOW, who knows? DCDuring TALK 19:44, 23 August 2008 (UTC)

Dodge

I think the noun section has been added mistakenly — the word is "doge", for which we already have an entry. — Paul G 07:43, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

• Removed. SemperBlotto 07:45, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

-manship

No. There is no such suffix. The combining forms listed here are from ...man + ship, not from ... + manship. — Paul G 08:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

By what criteria does one evaluate the "existence" or, more importantly, includability in Wiktionary of a suffix? DCDuring TALK 10:59, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Good question. Do we have criteria for this? The question is also begged by entries such as workmanship or craftsmanship. Are they derived from + -man + -ship or from + -manship? A craftswoman, or craftsperson displays good craftsmanship. But this does not give rise to craftswomanship or craftspersonship. -- ALGRIF talk 12:25, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

The words evolved from adding "-ship" to (deprecated template usage) craftsman etc. The word appeared and stabilized before there was a regular word (deprecated template usage) craftswoman in English. I think a good avenue for exploring this is the word (deprecated template usage) sportsmanship, since the hypothetical root (deprecated template usage) sportsman is not a common English word. --EncycloPetey 23:42, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Actually, both (deprecated template usage) craftswomanship and (deprecated template usage) craftspersonship do exist. Also, (deprecated template usage) sportsman is, in fact, nearly four times more common than (deprecated template usage) sportsmanship (also consider (deprecated template usage) (un)(deprecated template usage) sportsmanly &c.). I believe an essential criterion for the inclusion of an affix ought to be (by analogy with the “idiomaticity” criterion that we have for words) that its meaning cannot be reduced — in a sum-of-its-parts fashion — to its constituent affixes; in the case of (deprecated template usage) -manship, unless it can be shown that there exist at least three words ending in (deprecated template usage) -manship whose (deprecated template usage) -man æquivalents do not exist, then I believe it should be deleted. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 23:14, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

• Easily done: gamesman, one-upman, brinkman (but gamesmanship, one-upmanship, brinkmanship). Keep. Cheers! bd2412 T 00:27, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• gamesman;
• one-upman (though this is probably by back-formation); and,
• Google Books, unfortunately, refuses to recognise (deprecated template usage) brinkman as anything other than a surname; “a brinkman” yields results chiefly for people named “A. Brinkman” and technical terms named after people bearing that surname (e.g., a (deprecated template usage) Brinkman medium); the world book dictionary lists it, but the results page is blank; nevertheless:

  «Threatening to sue unless something is repaired is a brinkman’s move, as lawsuits hurt everyone involved — except the lawyers. On the seller’s part, the willingness to risk “no sale” can be a brinkman’s move.» — [35];

  «His record shows he is a brinkman. I think he should clearly understand now he is at the brink and he must now seek a settlement.» — [36]; and,

  «But this doesn’t make Galileo a martyr, only a brinkman. When it came to actually dying for ideas, Galileo wasn’t having any.» — [37].

• † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:54, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• Also, not easy to get a citation for a freestanding suffix, but:
  • 1996, Steven H. Gale, Encyclopedia of British Humorists: Geoffrey Chaucer to John Cleese, p. 874:

    Summary Stephen Potter is best known for his gamesmanship theory, a cunning, psychological tactic used to best a competitor, on or off the field. His basic "-manship" principle was later incorporate to include many everyday events.

• And, there is no "exams-man", but :
  • 2004, Jonathan Silverman, Suzanne M. Kurtz, Juliet Draper, Skills for Communicating with Patients, p. 102:

    This exams-manship history is decidedly different from the focused history that we are talking about in this chapter...

• Cheers again! bd2412 T 00:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

(deprecated template usage) Examsmanship is valid, considering [38], [39], and [40]. The citation for (deprecated template usage) -manship alone is rather interesting; it should be added to the entry. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:05, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep per Algrif and BD2412. All of BD2412's (deprecated template usage) -shipless examples do seem to meet the CFI, but they're certainly far less common than their (deprecated template usage) -shipped counterparts, and IMHO seem to be backformations. google books:"her chairmanship" makes google books:"her chairship|chairwomanship|chairpersonship" look like Taíno, even though google books:"she was chairman" is not far ahead of google books:"she was chair|chairwoman|chairperson". Also, it seems to be a fixed expression, so to speak: (deprecated template usage) -manhood, (deprecated template usage) -manity, and (deprecated template usage) -manness are all almost nonexistent. —Ruakh_TALK 00:47, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Regarding this last point of yours: That doesn’t prove that (deprecated template usage) -manship is one suffix. Due to the esoteric (descriptive) rules of English morphology, certain morphemes are simply naturally prædisposed to be affixed by this or that affix; for example, the (deprecated template usage) en- -en words, as far as I know, form nouns exclusively by the suffixation of (deprecated template usage) -ment, whereas the (deprecated template usage) -less words are almost always suffixed with (deprecated template usage) -ness when nominalised — this doesn’t mean that (deprecated template usage) en- -enment* and (deprecated template usage) -lessness* are English affixes. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:46, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

That's true, but it's an additional reason to keep the entry, just as we keep fixed series of words. (I won't argue that all such fixed sets of suffixes should be included — for one thing, they're not constituents — but taken together with the other arguments, I think it makes a stronger case. Or maybe not.) —Ruakh_TALK 03:07, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• One more note, the 2002 World Book Dictionary entries on brinkmanship and conmanship present the respective etymologies of the words as "brink + -manship" and "con + -manship". Although this is a citation to a dictionary, it is not to the dictionary's definition of the word, but to the use of -manship as a suffix. bd2412 T 00:53, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

  “(deprecated template usage) Brink + (deprecated template usage) -manship” I can believe, but I reckon they’re wrong with (deprecated template usage) conmanship (which is far more likely to be “(deprecated template usage) conman + (deprecated template usage) -ship”). I get your point though; however, it is not absurd to argue that they’re wrong in according suffixship (  ;-) ) to (deprecated template usage) -manship. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:16, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Here’s the deal: I don’t personally object to this entry’s existence. Nevertheless, I believe the principle I outlined above is a good one; what do you all say? As for the entry, I think (deprecated template usage) examsmanship and the direct use count as two of the requisite three citations, so I’m sure we can find another (deprecated template usage) -manship word that lacks a (deprecated template usage) -man æquivalent; perhaps in one of these three lists… † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:22, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

• I think the fact that another dictionary uses it as a word-forming suffix should at least count for a citation. bd2412 T 01:41, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

  I disagree (although I’d be open to debate on that, if it is explained to me their reasoning for specifying those etymologies); we don’t consider as citations the fact that a word is listed as a headword in a dictionary. Neither do I think that appearance in an etymology counts as a “use”. † ﴾^(u):Raifʻhār ^(t):Doremítzwr﴿ 01:50, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep. Whether it's its own indecomposable suffix or a combination of two suffices is academic, subjective and irrelevant. When two separate words are put together to form a new one, the new word warrants an entry; why should suffices be any different? Language Lover 03:09, 27 August 2008 (UTC)

f**k

1. Entry originally created by WF.
2. Bad entry title: only in very extreme cases is the asterix allowed as a page title character. Two has no possible justification, except perhaps to break tools that follow different wildcard syntax (besides the MediaWiki search syntax.)
   1. Some wildcard algorithms treat "**" as line-break wildcard search, while others treat it as pass-through wildcard notation, while others threat it as multi-word wildcard syntax.
   2. Other stream-oriented problems could arise from double character reduction.
3. Entry currently suggests this is a primary sanitized spelling; in truth it is rare (at best.) No comparative evidence is given to show its relation to, say, "@$#&" or "@#$&" (also bad entry titles.)

--Connel MacKenzie 22:08, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep for now.

#1 is a good reason to doubt the accuracy of an entry, but not a good reason to delete one once confirmed, and certainly not a good reason to ban future entry creation by other editors. And to clarify, I don't mean that taken on its own, it's not a good reason; I mean that it's not a good reason, period.

#2 is suggestive, but if a tool is applying wildcard algorithms to entry titles, then properly speaking, the problem is with the tool, not with the title. Depending on the tool, on the problem, and on the feasibility of fixing it, we might decide that the benefits the tool offers outweigh the costs of arbitrarily excluding certain character-strings from entry titles; and similarly, if there were a lot of such tools, we might make a similar decision even if no specific one of them, taken alone, would be worth it. But since you're not actually naming any such tools, nor describing the problem(s) that this entry title causes them, you're not letting us make that decision. (By the way, keep in mind that nothing is set in stone; we can decide to keep this entry for now, and then delete it in the future if and when we discover a problem.)

#3 is an interesting point. I see "bowdlerized spelling of" and infer an "a", but I definitely see how someone else might see it and infer a "the". But, that's not an argument for deletion; it's an argument for cleanup/tweaking/rephrasing/etc. This is a wiki, after all. :-)

—Ruakh_TALK 23:15, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep Concur with Ruakh on all points. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:35, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Move to an Appendix - Bowdlerized forms are highly variable and potentially endless. I think it would make more sense to have these in an appendix than in the main namespace. --EncycloPetey 23:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Redirect to fuck, there's no need to include all of these as seperate entries. However this should be documented somehow - an extensive usage note at Appendix:Bowdlerisation linked to from words commonly mutilated in this manner would be ideal - but it'll probably end up being a Usage note in an entry. I have no sympathy with the technology arguments, correctly-written software knows the difference between data and search patterns. Conrad.Irwin 23:54, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

I have no problem with an appendix or usage note or some such. The variety of censored forms is admittedly rather vast. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:57, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, agreed. And the MediaWiki software now allows targeted-redirects (using JScript/JavaScript), so if we want, we can redirect [[f**k]] to the specifically relevant part of an entry or appendix. —Ruakh_TALK 00:05, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Authorship is not inherently an indication of poor quality. As has been discussed before, we should not be technically bound from making valid entries. That some old-fashioned search tools may come a cropper on some input might be a reason to give some time for such problems to be resolved, not for an indefinite hold on a class of potentially valid entries. If the definitions said "A bowdlerized spelling", then the last of the original objections would be addressed.

I assume that attestable bowdlerizations would be included in principal namespace, just like any other attestable entry using special characters. I doubt that we would have more than a score of attestable bowdlerizations in a year. I haven't noticed many of them coming up on, say, usenet. Conrad's only-in redirects address the hard-to-attest forms. I suppose that the "only-in" redirect could have a good brief explanation and refer to a full appendix. If internet gambling were not illegal and were it not for "moral hazard", I'd run a betting pool on the number of attestable bowdlerizations we would have. DCDuring TALK 00:43, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep if sources for this word can be located via Google Books or print sources. I believe this spelling does appear quite often in the English language. It would be interesting (as we should do for all entries) to find some of the earliest appearances in print of this word. 24.29.228.33 01:48, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep per others' arguments. --Bequw → ¢ • τ 02:58, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep since it's obviously a fairly common [41] bowdlerization and no severe technical problems have yet been demonstrated. Rod (A. Smith) 03:15, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Keep, possibly as an appendix "Bowdlerizations of X". Circeus 13:30, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

Μέγα Ετυμολογικόν Λεξικόν

Certainly merits a 'pedia article, but I really don't think it belongs here, as the name of a specific entity. -Atelaes λάλει ἐμοί 23:32, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

Delete --EncycloPetey 23:37, 25 August 2008 (UTC)

graph cycle

SOP, and not even particularly common. ("Cycle of a graph" actually gets almost as many Google hits as "graph cycle".) —Ruakh_TALK 00:50, 26 August 2008 (UTC)

side wall

back wall

front wall

Someone had marked these for speedy deletion, obviously inappropriate. I'm listing them here, although I personally do not see why they should be deleted. __meco 12:49, 26 August 2008 (UTC)