Wiktionary:Tea room

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Tea house party in Japan (not tea ceremony)-J. M. W. Silver.jpg

A place to ask for help on finding quotations, etymologies, or other information about particular words. The Tea room is named to accompany the Beer parlour.

For questions about the technical operation of Wiktionary use the Beer parlour. For questions about specific content, you're in the right place.

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Contents

March 2018

pitén

Hey all. Is there a word in English for an informal game of baseball? Something like a kickabout, but with baseball. --Otra cuenta105 (talk) 12:31, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Pick-up game, maybe? - -sche (discuss) 15:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
@Otra cuenta105@-sche In NW Spain we call the "amateur football" kickabout pachanga, which has coincidentally also a Cuban meaning. DRAE confirms. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 11:17, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I knew about pachanga. It was my favourite word for a while. I woudl put it as a synonym, but I haven't really done synonyms in my 10+ years here. --Otra cuenta105 (talk) 21:42, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

woodchuck

Could someone transcribe this (Wonderfool's) tongue twister:

  • (file)

and possibly upload a new audiofile for woodchuck? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:09, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

"How much wood would a woodchuck chuck if woodchuck could chuck wood. Just as much wood as a woodchuck would chuch if woodchuck could chuck wood." Crom daba (talk) 10:41, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Oh dear, I forgot about those audios. Now you know what Wonderfool sounds like and where he lives, I'm assuming it can be easy to find who he his. That's disturbing. --Otra cuenta105 (talk) 14:56, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

How did this happen?

Why is there an "s" on the verb when single but not on plural? Examples:

  • Bob directs traffic.
  • Bob and Sue direct traffic.

I don't know what this is called, how it evolved, etc. Sorry I don't know how to better phrase the title question. Thanks in advance. ~ JasonCarswell (talk)

It's called agreement, and it's a characteristic of Indo-European languages like English (and in fact a whole lot of non-Indo-European languages too) that verbs take different endings depending on whether the subject is singular or plural. "Bob" is a singular subject, so it takes singular agreement on the verb, and in English -s marks the singular form of a verb (in the third person of the present tense). "Bob and Sue" is a plural subject, so it takes plural agreement on the verb, and in English the plural form of a verb in the present tense has the same shape as the infinitive (except for the verb be, for which the present-tense plural form is are. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:11, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Which is why directs is described as the third-person singular present indicative form. DonnanZ (talk) 16:50, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the info. In my 47 year(s) I had never before questioned adding "S" to indicate singular(s) and removing "S" for multiple(s). It's standard, but upon my first inspection(s) seems bassackward(s). ~ JasonCarswell (talk)
It may seem backwards, but the -s of the verb is not the same -s as the plural of nouns. It's a coincidental similarity. Leasnam (talk) 20:22, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
It's a profoundly remarkable inverted "coincidence". How did it evolve to be here? Why "S" and not "Z"? Why not any of the vowel sounds or "ed" or "ing" or "tion" or "urp"? I'm so blown away I'd never noticed this before. ~ JasonCarswell (talk)
One letter is less of a coincidence than a whole chain like ing would be. For details, read the etymology in our -s entries. Equinox 10:37, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Joking around
I teach my people to get used to it with "the fly flies" and "the flies fly"... Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 11:01, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
I figure it's like E=mC2 in physics, where there's the rule about the conservation of energy and mass: energy can convert into mass or the other way around, but the total amount of both in the universe is (broadly speaking, and theoretically) constant.
In the above example of English, the fly flies can become the flies fly as we "conserve" the s. Similarly in the spoken language, we "pahk the cah" in New England -- which might look like a loss of r, until we expand our scope and realize that the missing r from New England simply migrated to Texas, where we "warsh the car" instead.
<...ba-dum.../> ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 21:44, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr: That first sentence is not unworthy of Rhymeinreason... --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:48, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
He's being silly... but I bet some people, maybe even the OP, will get confused. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:51, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Oh, dear -- I tried to make it clear that this was a joke by adding the <...ba-dum.../> tag. Was that still too ambiguous? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 22:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Guys, I'm not that thick! My use of "..." is apparently {{lb|nonstandard}}. Basically, I use it when I'm attempting a witty (ahem) retort --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:17, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
@Eirikr: LOL at the bit about the "r"! - -sche (discuss) 00:58, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

preferential treatment, traitement de faveur

SOP? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 16:06, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Citations:Linkshänder-Fänger-Handschuh

Posted in TR as Citations talk:Linkshänder-Fänger-Handschuh doesn't work.

-84.161.32.222 16:37, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

It's spelled with a capital B in this online version (ctrl-f to find the sentence). And "Ruggen" isn't in Duden. I think it's safe to assume that they're both typos. – Gormflaith (talk) 19:28, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

opulence

In the quotations (which need reformatting, by the way) there is an unfamiliar character used (4 times). Is it a poor apology for an old-fashioned S? DonnanZ (talk) 16:44, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

It's ſ (long s), and the text seems to me to be cited correctly. -84.161.32.222 16:55, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
It doesn't look even remotely like the real thing. DonnanZ (talk) 17:02, 1 March 2018 (UTC)
The font in the book gives it a subtle horizontal stroke, but other than that it renders the same to me.__Gamren (talk) 12:24, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Wikimedia is not sending pictures, it's sending character codes, and that's the proper character code for the long s. If your system is rendering it in a way that you're unhappy with, you need to change which fonts you're using or edit the fonts if you want to be happy with the way it is rendering it.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:02, 20 April 2018 (UTC)

mineola

Something seems wrong here: how can a cross between a tangerine and a grapefruit yield an orange? Furthermore, some Google Books results suggest it's actually Minneola (capital M, double n) and that it's a cross between a tangelo and an orange! Equinox 17:42, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

Yeah, I think it is Minneola, and not considered an orange. This source from UF/IFAS says that it is a tangelo, being a cross between a grapefruit and a tangerine. Also described as "quite handsome and a genuine pleasure to eat." This study describes Minneolas as Citrus reticulata × Citrus paradisi (mandarin orange/grapefruit), as does this one and this one. – Gormflaith (talk) 19:49, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

sechs

The Pronunciation clip at Luxembourgish sechs sounds as though it belongs to Luxembourgish sechst (sixth) (which it does). Can this please be corrected ? Leasnam (talk) 18:55, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

An anon has fixed it quite simply. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 22:57, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Great. I wasn't aware that a file for sechs already existed. I'll try that next time first. Leasnam (talk) 03:29, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

Geä̂der

I translated the definition from German: sehnige Teile des Fleisches (the sinewy parts of meat). It seems pretty awkward; can someone give a better translation? Or, even better, is there a word for this in English? – Gormflaith (talk) 19:17, 1 March 2018 (UTC)

forbidden fruit is the sweetest

Defined as "Forbidden things have more worthwhile short-term consequences." Is that really what this means? Other references seem to think it's more like "Forbidden things seem more appealing", where the consequences (e.g. of sleeping with a best friend's spouse) might well still be disastrous. - -sche (discuss) 08:49, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Your def seems more accurate, yes. Equinox 10:32, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
Me too. DCDuring (talk) 13:58, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
I've changed the definition. - -sche (discuss) 23:22, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

abjunction

Are the pronunciations okay? Would have thought the /dz/ should be /dʒ/, but I'm not familiar with that slur notation. Equinox 13:44, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

Fixed. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:59, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

chillen

I was an exchange student in Bad Bergzabern last year. Among teenagers, chillen was used almost exclusively as it is in sense 7 of English chill (to smoke marijuana). It's mentioned in this article, but everything else I've found seems to be in the context of "to chill out by smoking marijuana". Is this sense ("to smoke marijuana") in widespread use in German-speaking countries? – Gormflaith (talk) 15:39, 2 March 2018 (UTC)

I've only ever heard it in the sense of "relax, chill out" without any reference to marijuana at all, but I have almost no contact with teenagers, and what little contact I have never involves talking about drugs. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:04, 2 March 2018 (UTC)
"Almost exclusively" is due to sociolect. The examples for "to chill" 6. ("hang out") and 7. are interchangeable, likewise "chillen" is an unspecific umbrella term, simply by association of activities. It might be used specifically as a cover-up because of taboo, I guess, and then invariably shift in meaning. There's also chillig and I don't know any adjective that would fit sense 7 literally. A funnier variant I heard is schimmeln. Rhyminreason (talk) 01:05, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
"Chill" means "smoke weed"? Dang, and I thought I was hep and with it for knowing what "Netflix and chill" meant. Equinox 21:57, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Strategetic

Strategetic is marked as "archaic" in its entry. I dispute this specifically on the grounds that it seems to have emerged as a rare illiterism for "strategic" in the early mid-nineteenth century, and to have propagated for less than a century before dwindling to negligibility about the time of WWII.

Now, some of us seem to hold the opinion that lexicography has no business deciding what is "right" or "wrong" about language usages, and certainly many practically universal modern usages originated as what amounted to illiterisms or even misprints in their day, and were scorned and railed at accordingly. That I accept to a great extent, but add that the lexicographer wields great power and accordingly bears great responsibility; what appears in the dictionary commonly leads or misleads generations of people, and to dismiss that power either abjectly or airily is ethically dubious at best.

For example, when a word answers no need apart from temporary convenience to an author who does not know the existing (and especially superior) word and perpetrates a barbarism to fill the gap, it does not mean we should dignify it with automatic acceptance, nor with the compliment of calling it an archaism, when all it really amounts to is a usage derived from a blunder and that fell out of use in favour of a more generally acepted and superior word (compare "strategic" with "strategetic" for example).

Accordingly I think we should be more specific about qualifications such as "archaic" and "nonstandard". For example 'adventitious, apparently ignorant usage instead of "strategic", mainly 1850-1950'.

Of course, I may be overlooking some standard guidelines that cover this sort of thing adequately, in which case I apologise, but would be grateful for comments and explanations. (I at least, am no lexicographer.) JonRichfield (talk) 07:28, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

  • There seems no justification in calling a word used by Anthony Trollope and The Economist (among others) "ignorant". Are you really suggesting that these people did not know that the word "strategic" existed? That's obviously ridiculous. Adding the suffix -etic is a perfectly valid, er, strategy for creating words in English – as it is in other languages, like French, which has stratégétique – and if lots of people use it then it's our job to record it, not pass judgement on it. Ƿidsiþ 07:56, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
As for passing judgement, I already have covered that. Passing judgement is fully justifiable where it is justifiable, otherwise, how dare we judge a word as "archaic"? Recording a usage is one thing; calling it "archaic" as opposed to "ignorant", "whimsical", "redundant", "ephemeral" or whichever cap fits, is dubious at best. This usage goes back only about 1.5 centuries, and practically petered out about a century later, if as much as that. At all times in its history it was used so rarely in comparison to "strategic" that it barely shows on the chart.
As for Trollope as an authority on English, he does nothing to alter the case. I can only find one instance of his using either word, and there is nothing in his usage to suggest whether he knew "strategy" or not, so he is irrelevant. The OED would be a more persuasive authority,but it omits the word. Interestingly, under strategetics I found the status given as "dated", which is so much more appropriate than archaic (and in a sense more dismissive) that I'll change strategetic to dated and leave it at that. Its status certainly does not match the appendix glossary entry for "archaic".
As for the strategetics of the expedientics of redundential agglutinatics of suffixionary syllabilliary affixitivity, feel welcome to any validatetics that satisfy you, but forgive my reservetics in the matter. JonRichfield (talk) 12:10, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm afraid you're wrong – it is in the OED (that was the first place I looked). They added it in December 2016. Ƿidsiþ 15:34, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Oh no, I am totally right. I looked in older copies dating back to when folks still could spell. But please tell us, Ƿidsiþ, what did the new Barbie OED say strategetic was, obsolete? Dated? Jazzed-up? It is one of the books my family won't let me buy... (too grown-up! ) JonRichfield (talk) 19:48, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Really? Ƿidsiþ 08:53, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Close enough for jazz — or the tearoom :D JonRichfield (talk) 10:03, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Hmm, reminds me of technicology, which I bumped into again yesterday... Equinox 14:16, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
Gosh, I wish you were joking Equinox, but various searches convinced me that you might not be... I had hoped that it might be a misspelling of technistologicity. <snnfff...> JonRichfield (talk) 19:38, 3 March 2018 (UTC)
It seems to have seen the most use between 1830 and 1930; in its heyday of 1830 to 1900, it was ~1/50th as common as "strategic". It's now very rare. However, it was used by too many educated writers to be dismissed by any descriptivists as "illiterate" or "ignorant", and it appears in period dictionaries, too (which were often prescriptivist). Century even claims it has an Ancient Greek etymon στρατηγητικός (stratēgētikós) (this copy of the works of Demosthenes mentions, in the footnotes of a certain line on page 86: "στρατηγικόν ] στρατηγητικόν S. στρατιωτικόν codex unus Morelli"). "Archaic" probably isn't the right label if it (probably) isn't used today to "sound old" (but perhaps it is used to sound stilted). "Now rare" or even just "rare" is an appropriate label. - -sche (discuss) 10:33, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
Sounds accurate. Sooner "rare" than "archaic" anyway. The Greek connection is not very persuasive, given that it didn't very closely match the modern semantics. From that point of view I prefer Ƿidsiþ's stratégétique JonRichfield (talk) 10:40, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
You seem to be conflating the two strata (if you'll excuse the pun). Perhaps they simply have separate meaning, like "energic" and "energetic", where one is technical jargon. The french seems to conflate the two, too, so perhaps that is a hint that it is not in fact the sole source. (that was an uneducated guess, I don't actually know). Rhyminreason (talk) 21:24, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Adverbial use of Swedish för

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/f%C3%B6r#Swedish

My Swedish friend told me that the adverb use of "för" is never by itself but used with other words, such as "för mycket (too much)". Could we confirm this? And add some examples of "för" as an adverb? Jclu (talk) 09:44, 3 March 2018 (UTC)

home delivery = homebirth?

Assumed it's really used that way (it sounds funny to me), isn't it SOP? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 18:19, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I have added one cite for each sense. You could argue that both senses are SoP. Maybe the fact that two SoP senses exist is some kind of (weak) argument for having an entry at all. Equinox 18:26, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

ecclesiast, ecclesiastic

Look at the citations I just added to ecclesiast, which clearly aren't of sense 1 (member of the Athenian Ecclesia). We seem to be missing one or more senses. Some dictionaries think this means ecclesiastic#Noun, but we define that as "one who adheres to a church-based philosophy", which is too vague for me to make sense of, and also seems inadequate to cover all the citations that can be found. Some citations seem to mean "member of an ecclesia (church)", which I added, but others refer to Jewish people, so it seems like there's still some other sense missing. Other dictionaries suggest "theologian" and "one who addresses the church or assembly of the faithful; a preacher or sacred orator" as senses. - -sche (discuss) 18:23, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

I have added a new sense (with help from the OED) which seems to cover the remaining cites well, although 2016 is so poorly written that I can't be sure. I think sense 2 is actually an uncommon mistake, so I will RFV it if nothing more turns up. Note also Ecclesiast. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:35, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't know, the "ecclesiast like Torquemada" and "ecclesiast [like] the fiery and passionate Dupanloup, Bishop of Orleans" do seem like they might not mean "administrator of a church" but rather something more in line with ecclesiastic's weird definition, like "church ideologue" or something. And if the citations about Jewish people are to be subsumed under the "administrator" sense, presumably "church" should be expanded to "church or other religious gathering". - -sche (discuss) 18:42, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
That definition is terribly wrong, though; I have replaced it with "cleric". Dupanloup certainly works in context, but I share your misgivings about the Torquemada one. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:46, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
The parallel structure in 1918 is actually very odd, as it sets a "Hebrew" vs a "Christian" vs an "ecclesiast" vs a "Brigham Young". Perhaps from a Mormon perspective at that time, they really all were rather separate sorts of religious figures. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:52, 4 March 2018 (UTC)
The issues I raised have been mostly resolved. If either of these words can be "theologian" (as some dictionaries say) that sense is still missing, but in general "ecclesiastic" is more sensibly defined now and "ecclesiast" has a "clergy member" sense that covers most of the non-Athens-related uses. I also broadened the other sense of "member of any ecclesia". - -sche (discuss) 00:54, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

percent

A user removed the adjective sense, making the frankly plausible argument that the ostensible uses of it just seem like uses of the noun. Indeed, I'm not sure it meets grammar/syntax-based tests of unambiguous adjectivity, though perhaps it might pass a "jiffy"-like "Talk:aliquot test". But other dictionaries do have an adjective section and sometimes an adverb section, too, for usage in cases where it could be an adjective/adverb (but it just could also be a noun). @DCDuring and others with an interest in grammar. - -sche (discuss) 18:59, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Hmmm. As we are, among other things, a historical dictionary intended to help users decode works that use terms that are dated, archaic, or obsolete, it could be argued that we should include the term as the PoS in which it first entered the language. Online Etymology Dictionary shows it as having entered English around 1560 as an abbreviation. Century 1911 (Supplement) showed it as per cent. or per ct., only as an abbreviation of Latin per centum ("by the hundred")". Webster is similar, but offering "in/by the hundred" as definitions. Even now per can be used in the applicable sense with ordinary English words ("per foot"). So, perhaps it was originally thought of as a prepositional phrase. If so, one would have forced into the procrustean bed of traditional parts of speech as an adverb or adjective. In any event, it didn't enter English as a noun, though it has became one.
As a noun, percent is often synonymous with percentage, clearly a noun and not an adjective by the usual tests, though bother are used attributively. Percent (and not percentage) occurs in the phrase of a percent ("3 tenths of a percent"), where it seems to be a noun. In an expression like "ten percent commission", formerly it might have been analyzed with ten being the head of an adjective phrase, modified by percent. Now we would have percent being the head, modified by ten.
A weasely resolution that I like would be putting all the old grammar into the etymology and the current attributive use into a usage label or a usage note, with only the noun PoS remaining. DCDuring (talk) 22:05, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

little old

Is definition two really restricted to the Southern United States? I agree that "little old me" and the like are largely Southern dialect, but I do hear people say little old man (meaning 'sweet, harmless, unjaded and endearing old man') plenty, and I'm from the Northeast.

Alternatively, if it is truly restricted to the South, is it possible that little old man is unrelated to the adjective little old?

I ask this because definition one looks at first glance to be what I am referring to, yet I can't find any definition of "little" in that sense that seems to fit what I am talking about. On the other hand, "[e]mphatically, affectionately, ... little; ordinary or harmless" seems to fit with what I am describing. Tharthan (talk) 23:14, 4 March 2018 (UTC)

Not restricted to Southern United States. See also good old. ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:02, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
(And big old.) Yeah, I guess we should drop that part of the label. If Southern US English uses these terms noticeably more often than other dialects, or in more constructions, that could go in a usage note. - -sche (discuss) 16:17, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Alright, I'll make the change then. Tharthan (talk) 16:44, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Teochew

You can search Teochew Peng'im pronunciation to be put into zh-pron at https://www.mogher.com . It is the best source I can find. --Octahedron80 (talk) 02:18, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

@Octahedron80: I think http://www.czyzd.com/ is a better one for single characters, since most entries have definitions corresponding to pronunciations. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:12, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
What Justin said. Also, there is this Japanese site that has correspondences between multiple dialects. —suzukaze (tc) 03:19, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Mogher does also give definitions per pronunciation, more detail than czyzd. Try search . --Octahedron80 (talk) 03:37, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
It really depends on the entry. Try for example. I find czyzd is more reliable because Mogher sometimes just shows generic Chinese definitions for entries they haven't polished, like . — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 03:45, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

mortality rate

Should mortality rate be considered "sum of parts" (the rate of mortality) or not? If not, related terms used in the insurance industry for transitions from one policy state to another include divorce rate, lapse rate, morbidity rate, PUP rate, recovery rate, remarriage rate, retirement rate, surrender rate; should all these be included as separate entries as well? -Stelio (talk) 16:45, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

I think that mortality rate is SOP and I will RFD it. I also think the others should not be created. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:45, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
Sounds good to me. Thanks @Metaknowledge! -Stelio (talk) 20:38, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
See mortality rate at OneLook Dictionary Search. DCDuring (talk) 02:42, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
What about the confusion between the atmospheric lapse rate and the insurance policy lapse rate? Why is one more definition-worthy than the other? DCDuring (talk) 02:56, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Organization that provides 'useless' jobs

Portuguese has a word cabide de empregos for "an organisation that exists primarily to provide useless jobs" (our definition) or "organization or entity with the main purpose of guaranteeing positions to political patrons, employing several people without need for administration" (pt.Wikt's definition). This seems like a candidate for Appendix:Terms considered difficult or impossible to translate into English, if there isn't an English word for it. Is there? Certainly the English-speaking world has companies that provide useless jobs. A company that featherbeds (see Featherbedding#Brazil)? - -sche (discuss) 21:02, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

The position is a sinecure; I don't know a word for the organisation. Equinox 21:05, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
"sinecure shop", "sinecure factory" and "sinecure mill" have a handful of google hits together, and "sinecure factory" has one hit on Google Books. Crom daba (talk) 21:54, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
"Sinecure business" might actually be attested in this sense (idiomaticity is a different matter), though so rarely that I am not sure I'd be comfortable considering "cabide de empregos" to be translatable just because of it. "Sincecure company" also gets a couple hits. - -sche (discuss) 21:55, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Also make-work, but again I don't know of a word for the organization. DTLHS (talk) 22:00, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Rube Goldberg machine, Heath Robinson machine, bureaucracy. That's not really what you're looking for, but sorta. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:04, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

diploma mill... Not really either. Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:07, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
gravy train? Or is it simply a synonym of sinecure? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:15, 5 March 2018 (UTC)
If featherbedding is the practice, then maybe featherbed is attested with the sense we want. — Ungoliant (falai) 01:58, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
  • If I were translating this, I would probably say "job mill", and when I search for that term I do see a little usage. "The county appears to be a patronage job mill for the criminal sons of some politicians" (The Trentonian, 2017); "the idea of a university as a place where students can explore and express ideas, rather than be run through a very expensive job mill" (Alphr, 2015). At the moment it doesn't seem to be a set phrase in English, though. The Portuguese term is rather great. Ƿidsiþ 08:11, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Nonsense color

In the way eleventeen is a nonsense number, does English have a nonsense color? Not a one-off like bank butt, but a word or phrase (I see a book titled "a sky the color of chaos", but that doesn't seem to be a set phrase) you use as a made-up color, and/or if a color you actually see is unnameable. Is grue or sky-blue pink used that broadly? Or are any of Wikipedia's List of fictional colors attestably used that way? I see we define "sky-blue pink" that way, but it actually seems to be a real color the sky turns; see Citations:sky-blue pink.
This is another question inspired by vetting "untranslatable" terms; several languages call such a color "the color of a donkey/dog that flees".
- -sche (discuss) 23:29, 5 March 2018 (UTC)

Two standard impossible colours in English are reddish green and bluish yellow (possibly also dark white and pale black). Reddish green is the most commonly attested.
In my experience, sky-blue pink is indeed used as a real colour: the colour of pink clouds in a blue sky as the sun sets. -Stelio (talk) 08:02, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
There is a fictional magical colour called "octarine"; this is best known from the Discworld comic novels, but seems to appear in a few magickal/occult texts too, so perhaps it's an older word. Equinox 09:43, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't see any citations of "octarine" before 1983's The Colour of Magic, other than as a name or OCR error (Google Books). -Stelio (talk) 11:07, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
tiver (a pigment) is cognate to Zauber ("magic"), certainly related, but not a non-sense color as far as I can see. --Rhyminreason (talk) 14:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

reassurance

reassurance has the sense "reinsurance" which is labelled as "legal, dated". While it may be dated in legal circles, it's still a current term in the insurance industry. How should that best be indicated in the labels? -Stelio (talk) 13:24, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

Perhaps {{lb|en|legal|dated|_|except in the insurance industry}}? —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:27, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Removed dated. Maybe I was wrong about that. Equinox 19:33, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Resolved with that; thank you very much! -Stelio (talk) 10:41, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

How to reverse the entry of a word and it's alternate spelling? (pu'er & pu'erh)

Hi, How appropriate this is called the Tea Room. Let's talk about tea!

There is a problem with the Wiktionary entry for the word "pu'er" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pu%27er

In this entry, "pu'er" is listed as an alternate for "pu'erh" https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Pu-erh

However, these should be the other way around. "Pu'er" is the correct, standard pinyin for the Chinese word 普洱 (pǔ'ěr). Pu'erh (with an added "h") is an "alternate" spelling. The character for "er", 洱, has its own entry here https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E6%B4%B1

As this requires more than a simple edit/correction, and I'm not a master-wiki-editor, thought to post this here for advice, or to see if someone else wants to make this change for me.

Thank you. —This unsigned comment was added by Mlondon (talkcontribs) at 19:09, 6 March 2018 (UTC).

While Pu'er is the correct pinyin for 普洱, Pu-erh (derived from the Wade-Giles romanization) seems to be the more common form of the word in English. See Google ngrams. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 19:21, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

repine

In the entry repine, have I updated {{en-verb}} correctly to reflect the archaic forms repinest and repineth? — SGconlaw (talk) 20:16, 6 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't agree with showing them at all. DTLHS (talk) 20:23, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
Ditto. It is incredibly cluttered. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:28, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
I agree these shouldn't go in the headword line. (There have been a few discussions before about excluding obsolete forms from the headword line, like "low" as a form of "laugh".) I think we should make more use of conjugation tables (which should include these forms), as at abandon#Conjugation. - -sche (discuss) 20:46, 6 March 2018 (UTC)
OK, will look into using a conjugation table, though I'll need help with this as I'm not a linguist. — SGconlaw (talk) 12:25, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

electroshock

Added a reference which only shows it as an adjective (which isn't included in the entry). DonnanZ (talk) 01:03, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't think that's adjectival, but rather attributive usage. "Tractor" isn't an adjective just because you can have "tractor parts". Equinox 01:23, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Hmm-yeah, both Collins and Merriam Webster say it's a noun. One thing leads to another, I was working on a translation of elektrosjokkvåpen (electroshock weapon) in a quote I added, and elektrosjokk is regarded as a noun in Norwegian. DonnanZ (talk) 11:55, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

-t

  1. Don't we have a category for verb participles couples like dreamt/-ed and learnt used (written and oral) differently in BrEN/AmEN? Aren't burnt, spelt and wept also a pair of this?
  2. Is the Usage note for dreamt also true for learn/learnt?
  3. Should spelt be in category:English irregular past participles as misspelt is?
  4. How comes that 4 out of 5 examples in -t (=-th, section 12) are not in the list? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 11:44, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Not forgetting spilt, and earnt which is highly irregular, but I use it. DonnanZ (talk) 12:04, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Anarhynchus

I wonder if Greek script in the etymology can be entered here, and other cases added by User:Pseudomugil, Cheers. DonnanZ (talk) 14:13, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Also the ref-no-references tags need sorting out. DonnanZ (talk) 14:15, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Done. Could you leave a message on his talk page to explain the usual deal (no {{etyl}}, Greek terms shouldn't be entered in the first parameter/the Latin alphabet, etc.)? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 14:23, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. I've done that, you can add to it if you want. DonnanZ (talk) 15:04, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

matchstick

If this refers specifically to the wooden part of the match, there are several wrong translations. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 16:41, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

Such as? In some languages both match and matchstick could be the same, vis tändsticka, fyrstikk, Streichholz and Zündholz. DonnanZ (talk) 17:43, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

I, l as "disguise letters"

These two letters look extremely similar in many fonts, and are sometimes used to disguise themselves as one another. For instance, if a forum user had the username "generalluigiT", if someone ELSE wants to make an impersonating alt-account pretending to be this user, they might create an account called "generaIIuigiT". Or maybe a username on a site was taken and never used, and it happened to be called "TheInvincible", so another user who actually wanted the username and didn't want to waste it might angrily make the account "Thelnvincible" or "ThelnvincibIe". In many fonts, the two usernames in both instances would look exactly the same. Does this merit a sense in the Translingual definitions of these two characters? (IMO I've only seen this used informally on the Internet in situations like these, so as for its attestedness I'm not too sure...) PseudoSkull (talk) 20:07, 7 March 2018 (UTC)

The reason I say it should go to Translingual is because this phenomenon shouldn't really apply to one particular language AFAIK. It could be used in any Latin-based language or on any string of words that uses these Latin-script letters. PseudoSkull (talk) 20:11, 7 March 2018 (UTC)
  • My gut feeling is that "disguise letters" are not in our purview. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 06:37, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
    Yeah, it doesn't seem like lexical information that should go in a sense; it seems font-/display-dependent; if the forum used a font where the characters were obviously distinct, someone would probably only make such a username as a gag reference to the letters' usual indistinctness. I would just link them via either {{also}} or our cop-out catch-all section, "See also". Particularly egregious cases might merit mention in usage notes as something "not to be confused". - -sche (discuss) 08:06, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

семисотпятидесятипятиугольник

Shouldn't that be a heptakishecatonpentakontakaipentagon rather than a circle? It does not have enough sides to be the latter I would think.

Aside from the word being a probable protologism in Russian? Jcwf (talk) 02:09, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Presumably, though I imagine one could use it humorously in reference to circles. Maybe WT:BJAODN material if it is a protologism (which it looks to be). — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 02:36, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

open the batting

Apart from the cricketing sense, I think it can be used figuratively, e.g. for someone who makes the first move. Any thoughts? DonnanZ (talk) 13:12, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, I agree: to commence proceedings. -Stelio (talk) 11:22, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
@Donnanz, I've added this as an idiomatic sense to the entry now. -Stelio (talk) 10:44, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
@Stelio: Thanks, that's a good def, I think. DonnanZ (talk) 10:56, 16 March 2018 (UTC)'

Lowing

As per the modern spelling of the term in the Christmas carol "Away in a manger".

I recall receiving a transcript in primary school, during the late 1950's or very early 1960's of this Christmas carol in which the term was spelled Lewing. It sticks in mind as it caused many questions amongst the other students and some discussion which, among other things, confirmed that the spelling was correct at the time.

Does anybody have confirmation of this or any etymology for the word and the older, possibly original, spelling? It has had a renewed interest for me as I have recently moved into Lewers Street and having subsequently, quite by accident, met a person with the surname Lewers who, confirmed the pronunciation to be Lowers.

Does anyone have information regarding this apparent change? Is this yet another victim of the "spellchecker"?

  • The OED has citations of the verb low back as far as the 16th century with no alternative spelling. It has nothing related in the "lew" verb. SemperBlotto (talk) 05:59, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
    • I've also never seen lew for any sense of low, though of course shew for show was quite common until the early 20th century. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 08:33, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
I remember seeing shewn in the 1950s, in a map key if I remember correctly. DonnanZ (talk) 11:01, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Definition of pendlovky

The original definition of pendlovky was "pendulum clock in a long glassed case", but Metaknowledge pointed out that the word glassed is uncommon in English and does not sound natural in this context, and for this reason it was changed for a "glass case". However, the long case is not completely made of glass, there is just a glass at the bottom of the front wall of the case so that the pendulum is visible, as can be seen in the picture. The word "glazed" was rejected too. May I ask for some more suggestions to find a better description? Thanks. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 09:41, 10 March 2018 (UTC)

"pendulum clock in a long case and featuring a glass window through which the pendulum is visible"? —suzukaze (tc) 09:45, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
I was thinking about something shorter, but if nothing like that is found, ... why not, thanks. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 09:50, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
"glassed case"→"windowed case"? —suzukaze (tc) 09:52, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Hm, sounds good to me. --Jan Kameníček (talk) 09:59, 10 March 2018 (UTC)
Care to add a translation to grandfather clock? and match the descriptions? I'm asking because "-ky" is a diminuitive, so "wall mount, smaller version of ..." could work. "short longcase clock" is an oxymoron, but the current "long case" works. Rhyminreason (talk) 13:57, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Not every use of the diminutive is literal. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:41, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

IPA containing symbols not in the pronunciation appendix

http://www.chaosreigns.com/wiktionary/badipa.html

This is a list of 228 English pages with IPA pronunciations that contain characters that are not in the wiktionary pronunciation appendix: https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:English_pronunciation

"work" /wɜɹk/ - there's no "ɜ" in the appendix. "cow" /kaʊ̯/ - there is a "ʊ" in the appendix, but no "ʊ̯".

I think these should all be changed, or have the symbols added to the appendix?

If there's a General American IPA, I'm checking that. If not, enPR. If not, whatever's left. And I'm only currently checking the first, if there are multiple.

Darxus (talk) 17:22, 11 March 2018 (UTC)

They should be changed to meet our standards. Your examples should be written as /wɝk/ and /kaʊ/ respectively. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:26, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
Also note Category:IPA pronunciations with invalid IPA characters. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 17:38, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
I changed all instances of /ʊ̯/ to /ʊ/ (cow hello co-op sauro- Latin@ go ham), and all instances of /ɜɹ/ to /ɝ/ (work turkey bird preservation furry durst myrtle Aaron's beard Cerberus frigatebird ursid above stairs). I believe these were appropriate? Anybody want to suggest other simple changes to make? How do I figure out what they should be? The most common first characters of unmatched IPA symbols are "ɜ" and "e".
Darxus (talk) 19:10, 11 March 2018 (UTC)
[aʊ̯] is proper IPA and useful (maybe cp. en:w:International Phonetic Alphabet#Diacritics and prosodic notation), [ɜ] is proper IPA too (maybe cp. en:w:Open-mid central unrounded vowel) though whether it's part of a correct English IPA transcription is another thing. -80.133.98.137 00:50, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
We are not talking about what "proper" IPA usage is. We are talking about Wiktionary standards for representing IPA for English in broad transcription. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm working on a table of symbol suggestions for these cases. I'd love feedback. —Darxus (talk) 22:56, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

The problem is that no one agrees on what the proper symbols for English should be, and despite repeated discussions here there still isn't much consensus on it. Ƿidsiþ 08:50, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

fuck as adverb

I think this is wrong. "Fuck no" etc. is just the interjection, isn't it? Equinox 00:17, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

He was fuck running when the clock ran out. Meh. It works, but not with the provided sense. - Amgine/ t·e 00:22, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
I would hardly say that works. I would vote in favour of that use of being an interjection. Tradereddy (talk) 00:44, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
"What the fuck are you doing" is using it adverbially, isn't it? --Rhyminreason (talk) 02:37, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
No, you can never place "the" before an adverb like that. It's like "the house" or "the dog". Equinox 02:40, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
So it should be analyzed as "doing the fuck", like "leaving the house", not as "what are you the fuck / fucking doing", where "fucking" is clearly a adverb, but the fuck moves to the front to highlight the importance of it, as is "fucking who do you think you are?". Either way there recently was discussion concluding that nouns used adverbially are not to be added as adverbs, if I remember correctly now that I think about it, can't find it though. Also: the hell is marked adverb. --Rhyminreason (talk) 03:23, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Etymology inconsistency with floss and floccus

I appologize if this approaches spamming, but I've added to the talk pages of both Talk:floss and Talk:floccus the following:

Currently, the etymology reads as follows:

1750, from French floche (“tuft of wool”), from floc, from Old French flosche (“down, velvet”), from Latin floccus (“piece of wool”), probably from Frankish *flokko (“down, wool, flock”), from Proto-Germanic *flukkōn-, *flukkan-, *fluksōn- (“down, flock”), from Proto-Indo-European *plAwək- (“hair, fibres, tuft”). Cognate with Old High German flocko (“down”), Middle Dutch vlocke (“flock”), Norwegian dialectal flugsa (“snowflake”), Dutch flos (“plush”) (tr=17c.). Related to fleece.

The issue, however, is that under the page 'Floccus' the Latin etymology points towards the following:

Possibly from Proto-Indo-European *bʰlok-, related to Old High German blaha, Old Swedish blan, bla, both from Proto-Germanic *blahwo (“tuft”), and Old Norse blæja, which is from Proto-Germanic *blahjon (“flock of wool”).

With a citation: Szemerenyi, Scripta minora: selected essays in Indo-European, Greek, and Latin, Volume 2, p. 714

The Online Etymological Dictionary has the following entry:

"rough silk," 1759, of uncertain origin, perhaps from French floche "tuft of wool" (16c.), from Old French floc "tuft, lock," from Latin floccus "tuft of wool," a word of unknown origin. Or from a dialectal survival of an unrecorded Old English or Old Norse word from the root of fleece (n.). Compare the surname Flossmonger, attested 1314, which might represent a direct borrowing from Scandinavian or Low German. In "The Mill on the Floss" the word is the proper name of a fictitious river in the English Midlands. Meaning "fine silk thread" is from 1871, short for floss silk (1759). Dental floss is from 1872; the verb floss in reference to use of it is from 1909. Related: Flossed; flossing.

This article allows adds this alternate explanation:

Walter Skeat, however, argues floss came directly from the Italian floscia seta, “sleave silk,” ultimately from the Latin flux, “flowing.” He considers soie floche the French borrowing of the same Italian phrase.

I was wondering if anyone had an expertise, interest, or ability to follow this issue further. Tradereddy (talk) 00:38, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

The abstemious

I'm seeing uses of abstemious in an apparent noun sense in the form "the abstemious". Should I add "Preceded by the: abstemious people as a group", or is this actually still an adjective sense? (For example, what is meant is "the abstemious [people]", but the word people is never added.) It occurs to me that this could apply to any number of adjectives: "the clever", "the thin", and so on. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:17, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

See Wt:Beer parlour/2015/October#Nominalized Adjectives for a prior discussion, with links to relevant RFDs. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 03:24, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Great, thanks. Hmmm, there doesn't seem to be a consensus on this. — SGconlaw (talk) 03:30, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
But as a practical matter, what language learner would fail to decode it and, having seen some of the more common nominalized adjectives ("the rich/poor/needy/indigent/good/sceptical/ignorant/intelligent"), wouldn't be able to encode reasonably well? DCDuring (talk) 04:23, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
Indeed. Should w have a vote on this and make it a rule? — SGconlaw (talk) 13:04, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Brelundin

Some person Geddess (talkcontribs) wants to add this word to the database. It's defined as follows: a main meal taken once in the day to replace breakfast, lunch and dinner. The term Brelundin is an abbreviation and stands for Bre (Breakfast), Lun (Lunch), Din (Dinner). It is used as a means of dieting for people who are busy throughout their day. The one meal tends to be had in the evening but it is up to the individuals preference. The term was created by Stephen Geddes due to an extremely busy schedule.

I'm not sure what to think of this lede, whom I have blocked for a week. Any suggestions? --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 04:41, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

I'm taking the silence on this as approval of adding the term to WT:BJAODN. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:37, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
It's just another made-up word ("protologism"). I don't see why it's particularly funny or clever. Equinox 05:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
The definition may not sound nonsensical, but at least the term sounds funny to me. --Lo Ximiendo (talk) 05:52, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
I think I did add lupper at some point (and "linner" seems to be used once or twice; might not meet CFI). Equinox 15:44, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm surprised about linner, which is part of my idiolect, at least. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:41, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

Demure

Demure has some gender binding as its used that needs to be noted. -Inowen (talk) 04:51, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

diff, Yes check.svg Done. (Is it "usually" or can we safely say "always"?) —suzukaze (tc) 04:53, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
google books:"demure man" (and a few relevant ones to be found at google books:"his demure", along with several irrelevant hits for "his demure [woman]", and misc other search phrases like "demure young lad|man") show that it's not always used of women; indeed, I can find some cases where it's used of animals; so "usually" or "chiefly" seems right. - -sche (discuss) 05:00, 12 March 2018 (UTC)
google books:"demure young man" gets even more hits, and google books:"demure boy" gets almost as many as "demure man". (And doing a Google Images search for "demure boy" definitely reveals the effeminacy associated with demureness.) —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:05, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

English cornual

@Wyang: Did you mean to post this in the GP? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:43, 13 March 2018 (UTC)
Sorry, moved. Wyang (talk) 04:45, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

Current definition and example: (anatomy) Located near, or relating to, an animal's horns. the cornual branch of the zygomaticotemporal nerve.

This is ... related to an animal's horns, but only very distantly. Point to cornu (which has many senses) instead in the def? Wyang (talk) 04:41, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

... and all the anatomical senses of cornu are missing. Wyang (talk) 07:15, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

English handlanger

In Dutch this word has (gained? today?) a very negative connotation: an accomplice in crime. Period. In Afrikaans it is far more positive: a helper, assistant. As the page is now the content is very confusing on that point, e.g. it says that in Dutch it can also be used in a positive sense. I'm tempted to scrap that. (nl.wikt does not have it), An article written in 1899 in WNT does mention more positive interpretations, but also mentions that the word is mostly used in the sense of accomplice ("een verachtelijke benaming": a contemptuous term).WNT. So perhaps the second meaning should simply be labeled obsolete. The etymology of the South-African English lemma should imho refer to Afrikaans rather than Dutch. Jcwf (talk) 14:32, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

I've given the Dutch sense a label and updated the English term's etymology, but the positive sense is still present in Surinam and Zeeland, so obsolete wouldn't really be accurate. ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:57, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

ea

The symbol ea is quite common in Korean as in 5ea입 (“5 items included”) and 10ea씩 (“10 items each”) which is clearly an equivalent of the general counter (gae), not “each”. I have a discussion in ko:사용자토론:Nuevo Paso#ea with two native Korean speakers and they say it is an English counter, not Korean. In fact ea seems to be used commonly in invoices ([1]) and in some game communities ([2], [3]). I would like to know:

  1. whether English speakers actually write ice burner 5ea instead of 5 ice burners in game communities
  2. how to pronounce ice burner 5ea if it is actually used
  3. whether we should have a Korean entry (personally I think we should because of the Korean pronunciation)

Thanks in advance. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:14, 13 March 2018 (UTC)

(The second discussion for "game communities" is about a Korean game :P —suzukaze (tc) 19:01, 13 March 2018 (UTC))
Yes, the use of ea in online games seems to me rather Korean-influenced English. You just can’t read ice burner 5ea in English. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:26, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
It seems common in cooking:
2012, Al Meyer, The Working Garde Manger, p. 31:
  • GARNISH FOR GASPACHO PAILLETTES (CHEESE STICKS)
    […]
    1 ea. egg yolk
    ½ oz. whole milk
    1 ea. puff pastry sheet
    2 oz. Parmesan cheese
    tt Hungarian paprika
Seeing this, we need to add an English counter. If it meant “each”, the author would have written ½ oz. ea. but that’s not the case. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 10:07, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I am certain that "ea." in those cookbooks is the English word "each" and not derived from Korean in any way. Compare google books:"1 pc. egg" and google books:"1 each egg". Ingredients lists in recipes sometimes have an odd "grammar". (This may or may not deserve an entry/sense-line, but it's not derived from Korean.) - -sche (discuss) 18:05, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I would certainly agree that this usage of ea. is odd.
That said, it certainly derives from native English usage, and not from Korean. The oddness is simply that "each" is more commonly used when parceling things out. Reading ea. in the context of the linked recipe, at first glance, it sounds like the author means to use one whole egg yolk per serving -- but the fuller context and the long-form directions make it clear that this cannot be the case, and the author is instead simply intending that amount for the whole recipe. I'm more used to seeing the number with no unit afterwards, if the intention is to use that number of the ingredient (for discrete things like egg yolks). The author Al Meyer appears to be a native of California, judging from his biography on his website, and is likely a native speaker of Californian English. I wonder then if this usage of ea. is a term of art for high-end cooking? ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 20:17, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it's even particular to high-end cooking. In my experience, the tendency to have something (like a unit of measure, or something indicating singularity) after numbers/measures of ingredients, leads for whatever reason to "1 each egg", "1 ea. egg", "1 pc. egg", "1 piece egg" etc. In some cases this seems to be caused by cooking-website-input-formats and/or authors dividing the ingredients list into three columns, "number", "unit", and "item being measured", where "unit" gets filled with "each" or "piece" for something like an egg that is just a single thing. For example, that seems to be why Mediterranean Diet Cookbook: 70 Top Mediterranean Diet Recipes calls for "1   piece   Egg (large, beaten lightly)". Looking at the Google Books hits for those phrases, I see cookbooks all across the spectrum, from pop-culture-y ones to ones that might be intended to be high-end. - -sche (discuss) 21:59, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
That's the kind of idiotically unthinking linguistic abuse that makes me want to flog cookbook editors with lasagna noodles whilst, and at the same time, bludgeoning them with a conveniently sized halibut.
Yech. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 00:28, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Heh. I can even find: Tony Bednarowski, Get Your Lean On: A Simple, Sensible yet Scientific Weight Loss Solution (2013, →ISBN):
 » 2 T. onion, chopped
 » 1 count egg
 » 1 T. canola oil
 » 4 slices Canadian bacon
 » 2 c. cabbage, thinly sliced
- -sche (discuss) 01:22, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Ugh. My wife informed me that a couple different recipe websites she's used suffer from badly implemented data validation, where ingredient entry lines require something in each field -- much as you suggested above, only enforced by naive-developer fiat.
I feel like there's a research paper in there somewhere -- the broader linguistic impacts of poor database design decisions. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:39, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I know the Korean ea is from the English ea. I just thought that it only means “each” in English and the general counter sense was a Korean invention. Now it is clear that the latter is also from English. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:54, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Sense added: ea.TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:08, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

"X Time"

There are a lot of cultures that have stereotypes of being late to everything. I'm curious how best to lemmatise and define these. Right now, we have African time with a rather poorly worded definition, and CP Time is claimed to be the equivalent (although in my experience, it's pejorative and somewhat dated, unlike African time). We also have Caribbean time given as a synonym, although it's different in that it refers to Caribbean people. How do we approach this? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:34, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Coordinate terms IMO. DTLHS (talk) 02:36, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Hard to coordinate when there are so many — we probably need a thesaurus, but I don't know what to call it. Some other attested times (sometimes with capitalised Time) include: Indian time, Jewish Standard Time, Hawaiian time, island time, Fiji time. The antonym, punctuality, is also attested, including: White People's Time, haole time, mzungu time. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 02:41, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
As long as it's linked from entries I don't think the name of a thesaurus page matters that much- call it "Thesaurus:X time" if you want. DTLHS (talk) 02:48, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Thesaurus:lateness or Thesaurus:tardiness? — SGconlaw (talk) 03:03, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Thesaurus:tardy time, perhaps? Or, if a thesaurus entry is not desired, just put all the coordinate terms in one entry (say, the most common, or the alphabetically first) and have all the other terms say "see list in X". - -sche (discuss) 04:38, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Not sure the Thesaurus page name needs to be that specific, IMHO. — SGconlaw (talk) 06:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@-sche, since you tend to be better at this to me, think you could reword the def at African time, so I can use it as a template? —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 04:40, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
OK, I've taken a stab at writing definitions for both CP Time (mentioning that it is sometimes treated like a notional time zone) and African time (mentioning the positive aspects WP says it has). If "African time" is not so derogatory, or has stronger positive connotations, please edit the definition further to reflect that. The definitions could be shortened by moving the "who uses it how" bits into usage notes. In my experience, some African Americans still use "CPT" / "Colored People Time" in a sort of self-deprecating humorous way among themselves (off the top of my head I recall writer Ijeoma Oluo mentioning her mother using it recently), but use by even well-meaning white people is rather fraught, as the Wikipedia article mentions. - -sche (discuss) 05:24, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I think it's pretty good; it's hard to judge how derogatory something is, but my experience is that Africans, at least, use "African time" in a fairly neutral, descriptive way, so "sometimes derogatory" seems better for the label. Another issue is that it's difficult to expand this to an entry like island time, which references a place rather than people. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 05:48, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Using the definition of African time as a base, what about changing "...Africans..." to "...the [inhabitants|natives] of [certain] islands [line Hawai'i and Fiji]..."? - -sche (discuss) 21:49, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

Lines lacuna

Pick up a ruler. What are those lines on the ruler called? Well, that article says both graduations and then less pleasingly markings.

For this purpose, graduation's definition

3. (sciences) A marking (i.e. on a container) indicating a measurement.

rather misses the sense of lots and lots of equally-spaced lines dividing the length.

And marking's definition really misses

2. a mark

I'd been wondering about ruling, similar to the sense as used when describing the ruling lines that together inscribe a diffraction grating, but that article here has no idea what I'm talking about, although w:Diffraction_grating does know about 'rulings'. (w:Grating says they are 'grooves'. Groovy) "Century Dictionary" has "2. The act of making ruled lines; also, such lines collectively." And ruled has a hint of those ruler markings.

So, graduation clearly is deficient, as is ruling, and I still feel there is a better definition or better word that better fits "those lines on a ruler". Shenme (talk) 06:36, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I've extended the definition a bit at graduation. As for marking, that's a hard one; I wouldn't say it misses, but it could use to be more exact. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 18:15, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

satisfied

Can this also mean "certain/sure"? "but I am satisfied that it" @ Google Books. —suzukaze (tc) 07:31, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not quite that strong: more like convinced or persuaded, or willing to accept because one's standard of proof has been met. The focus is on the subjective decision to believe rather than on objective certainty. Chuck Entz (talk) 09:06, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

i need words that start or end with gragh

saffron

I would like to propose a possible etymology of "saffron" from Median farnah-, Avestan xᵛarənah-, Sanskrit suvarṇa (सुवर्ण), all with the meaning of yellow, golden, yellow ochre, turmeric and, through a small semantic shift, glory, aura, fortune. 84.18.132.44 13:48, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

fo'c'sle, fo'c's'le, fo'c'stle: contractions?

What do we mean by "contraction"? Is the criterion visual or auditive?

By the way, I'm not terribly fond of having things like antimonselite or astrogate listed as "contractions" alongside isn't or he'd've. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 19:30, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

In this case it's both, so it doesn't matter. I would call antimonselite and astrogate blends rather than contractions, since they are intentional coinages. --WikiTiki89 19:35, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Wikitiki89: Ok, let's take a more obvious example. fo'c'sle is said to be a double contraction, fo'c's'le a triple contraction. Shouldn't these be labeled as simple contractions? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:43, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Why "simple" contractions? In terms of pronunciation they are both "double" contractions. But what do we call spellings like ask'd? Are they contractions, even though they are pronounced the same as the full spelling? Perhaps historically they were spoken contractions before the standard pronunciation dropped the sound in question as well. Anyway, I think we should generally go by pronunciation, and call purely written contractions "written contractions". After all, gonna is a contraction even though there is no apostrophe. --WikiTiki89 20:52, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I too would prefer we disambiguate and speak of "written contractions".
I'm confused by forecastle to be honest. What's the standard pronunciation? If it's /ˈfoʊkˌsəl/ or /ˈfəʊksəl/ or /ˈfɒksəl/, then how are the apostrophe versions (pronunciation) contractions at all? They're just written contractions. And if /ˌfɔːˈkɑː.səl/ exists, is it the historical pronunciation, or a spelling pronunciation, or both? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:18, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Well then the question is again, what came first, the contracted spellings, or the loss of the uncontracted pronunciation? If a few decades from now, the pronunciation /ˈaɪ ˈæm/ for "I am", completely falls out of use, does I'm suddenly cease to be a contraction? --WikiTiki89 21:44, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Regarding these being listed as "double" or "triple" contractions: we perennially have problems with unaware users adding things to those categorized based only on the number of apostrophes in the word, and I revert them. (fo'c'sle is not, AFAICT, said to be a double contraction, because I undid the last editor who listed it as such last year.) To be a double contraction, as I understand it, it needs to have two instances of contraction (like "y'all'd": contract "you all" to "y'all", and then contract "y'all would" to "y'all'd"). AFAICT, "fo'c'sle" is one word that was shortened (in one swoop). - -sche (discuss) 21:45, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
How do you know it was in one swoop, and not first forec'sle and then fo'c'sle? --WikiTiki89 21:49, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Shout it a few dozen times in a very windy place so people upwind and down can understand you. - Amgine/ t·e 23:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't mean this in a bad way, but I honestly don't get what point you're trying to make. I wasn't questioning the cause of the contraction. --WikiTiki89 14:40, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
It is very difficult to shout "forecastle" clearly and understandably. Stop and think about the context of the word: part of a vessel which requires (and desires) to operate in high wind/wave. More specifically, a vessel with an abnormally high number of crew - a military vessel. An order given near the helm is passed forward by many crew shouting it sequentially, and it is answered by repeating it back through the same chain of communication with an affirmative append. "Fo'c'sle Away!" "Fo'c'sle Away Aye!" And it has to be *perfect* going forward and aft again. I suspect it would be impossible for any game of 'telephone' in those circumstances to not result in fo'c'sle in a single pass. - Amgine/ t·e 02:15, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

contraction of I'm gonna

How do you spell the /ˈaimənə/ contraction? I'm'na? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:38, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I've been wondering this for years. In real life, I usually spell it I'm gonna. Incidentally, in my idiolect it's pronounced /ˈʌmənə/, or rarely /ˈʌɪ̯mənə/. --WikiTiki89 20:55, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
I'mma is what you want. Sadly ATM it is a redirect to Imma. --Otra cuenta105 (talk) 21:25, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@Otra cuenta105: I'mma is a more contracted contraction pronounced /ˈa(ɪ)mə/, not the one we're talking about pronounced /ˈa(ɪ)mənə/. --WikiTiki89 21:38, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
"I'm 'onna" is attested (Citations:I'm 'onna). Searching for that also revealed that some people "contract" on a to the longer spelling onna. - -sche (discuss) 21:36, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
on a roll > onna roll? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:40, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Well, what I ran into was more "I'm onna bus". - -sche (discuss) 21:46, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
That's beautiful. I'm 'onna try and use it onna regular basis. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:52, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
@-sche: Are you sure onna isn't on the (pronounced /ˈɒn̪n̪ə/)? --WikiTiki89 21:57, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Good point. That seems more plausible. We'll have to look for shortened set phrases that originally had "a" or "the", like the one Per utramque cavernam mentions. - -sche (discuss) 22:05, 14 March 2018 (UTC)
Ima 'mindeda da erly Rolling Stones: "Ima gonna tell ya how its gonna be". DCDuring (talk) 03:32, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

smoothing

I think we're missing a phonetic sense (synonym or hyponym of monophthongization?). --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:24, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

bulldog clip

According to the entry it's a genericized trademark from 1944, however, there are some uses in the 19th and early 20th century (before 1944). Is this a separate sense or is the note in the etymology inaccurate? DTLHS (talk) 22:11, 14 March 2018 (UTC)

I can't see any part of the first source at all, but since it is the Dictionary of Practical Surgery, perhaps that is a completely different sense (some surgical instrument?). As for the second source, I can't see enough of the text to get a clear sense of what is meant. Perhaps try looking at Archive.org or the Hathi Trust Digital Library to see if you can find full-text versions of these and other sources? — SGconlaw (talk) 03:46, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
I've added some actual cites to the entry. DTLHS (talk) 03:53, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Thanks, and I see that @Kiwima has kindly supplied an image and a definition. Any idea what the etymology might be? A reference to the surgical clip gripping strongly like a bulldog's bite, perhaps? — SGconlaw (talk) 10:51, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
That would be my guess, or perhaps the serration or even the shape, in addition to the grip, was vaguely/fancifully likened to a bulldog's jaw. But I haven't spotted actual evidence of that. A 1914 Colliery Engineer mentions yet another type of "bulldog clip"/"bulldog grip", with illustrations... - -sche (discuss) 16:57, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

yesterday night

The usage notes a missing something: "Based on a review of Google News (which allows specification of location):

  • Last night occurs about 1,000 times more often in the US, UK, Canada, and Australia,
  • Last night occurs about 100 times more often in Singapore, India, and South Africa."

More often ... than some other phrase? Than this phrase occurs in some other place? What? - -sche (discuss) 17:05, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

"last night" occurs more often than "yesterday night". --WikiTiki89 17:41, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Oh, duh... I need more sleep, apparently! - -sche (discuss) 21:54, 15 March 2018 (UTC)
Dumb search for "last night" versus "yesterday night" may not be very meaningful as a comparison since "last night" would also pick up "final night" uses ("the last night of the holidays", "my last night as a single man" , etc.) Mihia (talk) 22:01, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
@Mihia: When it means "final", it is nearly always preceded by "the". Since "last night" still occurs about 200-300 times more often without the "the" than with the "the", the possibility of it meaning "final" does not skew the results very much. --WikiTiki89 15:57, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

republic (small-r)

  • I don't think a "republic" should be defined in terms of sovereignty. There are multiple interpretations as to the nature of sovereignty and if applied to the word "republic" could lead to conflicting meanings. I recommend replacing number 1 with following:

republic = describes a form of government which is not a monarchy, is kingless, and has no hereditary nobility. -- Calif.DonTracy (talk) 22:58, 15 March 2018 (UTC)

Contribs of User:70.52.10.192

A little suspicious about the hockey obsession: e.g. latest inline sledge hockey is barely in Google Books. Equinox 05:40, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

He's adding lots of French terms too; I don't want to look into it because it's probably going to piss me off. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 14:08, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
It's not specific to hockey. This is the same person who's been systematically going through a variety of subjects and strip-mining them for entry ideas. They're responsible for the flood of sports-team abbreviations, and with the start of the Winter Olympics they switched to winter sports.
The worrisome part is that they geolocate the same as Fête (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks)/Phung Wilson (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks)/À la 雞 (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks)/Fête Phung (talkcontribsglobal account infodeleted contribsnukeedit filter logpage movesblockblock logactive blocks) , a non-native English- and French-speaker in the Montreal area who added a lot of weirdness to entries in both those languages (especially pronunciation), as well as being a general nuisance at times. Montreal is a big city, though, so we can't be sure (the checkuser tool can't be used on old edits). Even if it is Fête, he was pretty young back then, so he might be growing out of the worst of his problems. Still, there's an an element of cluelessness about this editor that bears watching. Chuck Entz (talk) 01:36, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Related terms

Why bone head in boner#Related terms? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 13:44, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

@Sobreira: I've removed the whole section, it was useless there. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 14:08, 16 March 2018 (UTC)
OTOH, we are missing more than a half dozen derived terms that would be blue links. DCDuring (talk) 17:42, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

golden number

Is there a missing sense related to the golden ratio? Ultimateria (talk) 20:07, 16 March 2018 (UTC)

colsidium ??

Is there any such word or is it made up? I want to translate a quote I added to gullbarre of kolsidiumnitratfosfat, which I suspect is itself a work of fiction, only one hit on Google from the book. DonnanZ (talk) 11:27, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I have assumed that it's fictitious when doing the translation. DonnanZ (talk) 16:03, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

priority to the right, give way to the right, yield to the right

Are these entry-worthy? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 12:31, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

eye dialect

Defined as:

  1. (uncountable) Nonstandard spellings that indicate a standard pronunciation, deliberately used by an author to indicate that the speaker uses a nonstandard or dialectal speech.

Indicates "standard pronunciation", yet the speaker uses "nonstandard or dialectal speech"? Isn't this a contradiction? Mihia (talk) 14:10, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

No; the point is that the speaker uses nonstandard or dialectal speech elsewhere. Consider for example this "Snuffy Smith" cartoon: in the last panel Lukey is shown as saying ennyway instead of anyway. Now /ˈɛniweɪ/ is the standard pronunciation of anyway (outside of Ireland at any rate), but the cartoonist used the eye dialect spelling ennyway to reinforce the character's nonstandard dialect shown by other words like fergit (representing /fɚˈɡɪt/ for standard /fɚˈɡɛt/). I suppose th’ for the is eye dialect too, since th’ can hardly represent anything (at least before a consonant) other than standard /ðə/. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:03, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
OK, thanks, but the "elsewhere" aspect is not made particularly clear in the present definition. It reads pretty much like a contradiction. The speaker uses standard pronunciation but nonstandard or dialect speech. Mihia (talk) 17:51, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
The speaker uses a standard pronunciation but the author is using a nonstandard spelling to indicate the speaker is speaking dialect. That's not a contradiction; that's just bad writing on the part of the author.--Prosfilaes (talk) 03:04, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
My opinion remains very much that the present definition is confusing. It may be a definition that seems to make sense to those who already know what the term means, but confuses those who don't. Unfortunately I am not sure how to best fix it. Mihia (talk) 04:24, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

'arf

Said to be "eye dialect", which, in turn, is defined as "Nonstandard spellings that indicate a standard pronunciation". However, 'arf doesn't indicate a standard pronunciation. That's the whole point. I believe this may have been discussed before, but I just want to be sure that I am doing the right thing if I remove the "eye dialect" tag from this and all similar entries (where nonstandard spelling indicates nonstandard or dialect pronunciation). Mihia (talk) 14:15, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

I wouldn't simply remove the "eye dialect" tag; I'd change it to {{nonstandard form of}} or something. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 15:04, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Indeed. Mihia (talk) 17:51, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

semiestelar

Hey all wrestling fans. Do we have a word for semiestelar in boxing, wrestling etc. It refers to, I'm pretty sure, the second most important fight on a fight night. sub-top-bill? under-top-bill? --Otra cuenta105 (talk) 16:43, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

A Google Books search suggests this may have a broader meaning, btw. But for the meaning you speak of, the phrase "second-billed [fight]" seems to be attested. - -sche (discuss) 16:54, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

evilworker

Is this word archaic or obsolete? I can't tell, but the only dictionaries that I have found it in thus far are A Critical Pronouncing Dictionary and Expositor of the English Language by John Walker and Noah Webster's American Dictionary of the English Language (1828). Tharthan (talk) 20:04, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

umpence

Does anyone know this word? I have heard it in the UK. I think it may be some northern England dialect. I thought it just meant "money", but from some of the few uses that I can find on Google search, I wonder if people use it more to mean "a small amount of money". Because of the small number of relevant search results, I'm wondering also if I have spelled it correctly. Mihia (talk) 20:29, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

It must be related to flumpence but other than that I know not
Citations:umpence. Only found 2 uses. DTLHS (talk) 20:40, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
The form reminds me of umpteen and umpty. Those words use it for an unspecified (probably large) amount. Curious that it can be tracked back to a dash in morse code. In accounting you would use a dash to represent nothing, so looking at e.g. a payroll / paycheque / whatever and seeing dashes, you could interpret that as "umpence" (ie no pence or thereabouts). Just speculation Moogsi (talk) 22:39, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
I mean that you would have 6 | 5 | — in your ledger or 6 pounds, 5 shillings (and umpence). Moogsi (talk) 22:47, 17 March 2018 (UTC)
Isn't it a bit weird that Citations:umpence exists but not umpence? Is that normal/allowed? It's like it's been orphaned or something. Mihia (talk) 00:06, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
No it's not weird. See Category:English citations of undefined terms. DTLHS (talk) 00:07, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

haram police

The citations are of poor quality (using different capitalizations or different terms, or having no clear meaning), but is this idiomatic, anyway? The definition in the entry now is not necessarily obvious, but the general construction is, since one can also find google books:"kosher police", google books:"morals police", google books:"sharia police". OTOH, "fashion police" exists. But I don't want to RFD it if other people think it just needs cleanup. - -sche (discuss) 23:06, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

This certainly fits Pass a Method's MO of taking common phrases and substituting allegedly equivalent items from a context they want to promote. If things really work the way PaM assumes they do in this case it would probably be SOP, since that would mean the part substituted is interchangeable and the rest could be defined to work in both phrases. Of course, any resemblance between PaM's understanding and reality is strictly coincidental, so it would help to know what actual usage says it means. Chuck Entz (talk) 00:11, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

Quranize

The definition doesn't seem to match the citations. - -sche (discuss) 23:46, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

cuatro gatos

What's the English equivalent of this, i.e. the opposite of everybody and their dog? Some references say "nobody [here] but [us] chickens", but it's not obvious that that's attested in a relevant sense. - -sche (discuss) 00:07, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

One man and his dog? Mihia (talk) 03:04, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, is the opposite of everybody and their dog. Is not 'nobody', is 'a small quantity of people', 'very few people', as properly attested in the entry's definition and usage example, but I'll add a shorter and translated example anyway. 194.182.74.203 17:17, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
We're looking for an analog to smell of an oily rag, once in a blue moon, etc, I think. DCDuring (talk) 16:16, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
In BrE (at least), it does mean "very few people", but I see this has already been dealt with below. Mihia (talk) 23:01, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
If anyone comes up with a translation, remind me to add it to gato pingado. — Ungoliant (falai) 16:32, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
I don't think I have an idiom for this, at least not in my idiolect. I'd just say it literally: "hardly anyone", "almost no one", that sort of thing. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:34, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Just/but us chickens seems close, but is situationally limited to cases where the speaker is present. DCDuring (talk) 17:11, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
My bad, I didn't realize at first you were asking for a translation, not an explanation. The closest unmentioned thing I can come up with is hardly a soul. Also, there were tumbleweeds may apply, albeit that expression can imply that there was no one, thus becoming not a synonym of cuatro gatos. 194.182.74.203 17:17, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Related, but by no means equivalent, is Kilkenny cats ("Two cats which, according to legend, fought until only their tails remained.").
I think we need a special summons of Australian and Irish contributors. DCDuring (talk) 18:44, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Well, I think @PalkiaX50 is from/in Ireland and @Tooironic knows Australian/NZ English... do either of you know of an idiomatic expression for when there's hardly any people present, that would be comparable to the Spanish saying there were only "four cats" present? - -sche (discuss) 20:48, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

trois pelés et un tondu (fr) in French, with various alternative forms (I myself use deux pelés trois tondus) --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:50, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

This French website gives bunch of nobodies as an English translation, which seems wrong to me (i.e. "bunch of nobodies" doesn't mean that), as well as two men and a dog? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:55, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
Amid quite a few literal uses, "one man and his dog" seems to be attested in a sense like this; I've created an entry. Thanks, all! Quite a few of the quotes are specifically British, so it might be dialectally/ regionally restricted. Variants like "two men and a dog" and maybe "one man and a dog" are probably attested, but hard to search for because so many instances are literal. - -sche (discuss) 21:51, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

cordon bleu

How is it that we don't have a French entry for this common term? ---> Tooironic (talk) 03:22, 18 March 2018 (UTC)

  • Added. It might also mean the food item (slices of breaded veal &c). SemperBlotto (talk) 09:22, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
    Thanks! ---> Tooironic (talk) 12:16, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
    Is the food item really only American? The dish certainly exists in Germany with the name Cordon bleu, but maybe it's called something else in the rest of the English-speaking world. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 16:38, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
    Yes, and searching thetimes.co.uk for "cordon bleu recipe" turns up many instances of that phrase, and google books:"chicken cordon bleu" "flavour" gets hits, which suggests cordon bleu and chicken cordon bleu are at least sometimes used in the UK. Whether other names are also used, or the dish is seen as particularly American, I don't know. The →ISBN edition of the Oxford English Dictionary does have it as a postpositive adjective for a dish made up of the food we have as the noun sense. They also have a noun sense we lack, for a "cordon-bleu finch", an African waxbill (Uraeginthus). - -sche (discuss) 21:01, 18 March 2018 (UTC)
    We do have that sense, at cordon-bleu. If it's spelled without the hyphen sometimes, then an "alternate form of" definition coulld be added. Andrew Sheedy (talk) 04:17, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

top to tail

Is this a legit entry? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 10:26, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

bunk

In summer sleepaway camps (at least in the US), bunk can mean one of two things: a cabin in which a group of campers sleep, a group of campers assigned to a particular cabin. In day camps, bunk can still refer to an assigned group of campers, even though there is no longer any connection to an actual sleeping space. We currently don't cover either of these definitions. But in order to make this as general as possible, does anyone know if these meanings are used outside of summer camps? --WikiTiki89 14:46, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

on the pretext, under the pretext, on the pretense, under the pretense (that)

Are (some of) these entry-worthy? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 16:47, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

Why those specific nouns? Lots of other words do this ("condition", "assumption", "proviso", "understanding"...). Perhaps the correct preposition to use belongs in an appendix, or usage notes. Equinox 21:07, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
Probably because I'm thinking of French sous prétexte que, which I feel is lexicalised/grammaticalised. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 21:21, 19 March 2018 (UTC)
MWOnline has an entry on one pretext or another. Using OneLook's wildcard search, I didn't find another MWE using pretext, except a single legal one.
MWOnline also has entries for abandon all pretense at/drop all pretense at and on the pretense of/under the pretense of.
OneLook's wildcard search can provide useful lemming information on MWEs. We should use it.
Nevertheless, I don't find the MWOnline entries very satisfying as they seem to imply that other verbs, determiners, nouns, and prepositions are somehow less idiomatic than the one or ones selected for inclusion. on this or that pretext/on this pretext or that/on some pretext/on some lame pretext would work for MW's definition for on one pretext or another. You wouldn't have to work too hard to find others. DCDuring (talk) 23:39, 19 March 2018 (UTC)

tensor

There's an adjective sense at tensor, but is it just an attributively used noun? ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 13:48, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

@Lingo Bingo Dingo, yes it looks like attributive use of a noun to me. -Stelio (talk) 11:56, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

open-ended question

We have yes-no question; should we have this? Are they terms of art? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 19:59, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

And if it's not entry-worthy per se, should we have it anyway as a translation hub? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:06, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

blue-gray

Many languages have words for "blue-gray", see User:-sche/blue-gray. English also has several words, including clair de lune ("pale bluish-gray"), Copenhagen blue ("greyish blue"), slate / slate blue / slate gray ("[dark] bluish-grey/gray color of slate"; confusingly, "slate" defines the other two as synonyms but they have different color swatches and translations), and Wedgwood blue (defined, apparently correctly, as "pale grey-blue", but with a dark color swatch). However, none of those are as common as "blue-gray" and all seem a bit narrower. Should [[blue-gray]] be created as a translation hub or should one of those entries (maybe "slate"?) be picked to host the (more general) translations? - -sche (discuss) 02:15, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

I don’t find any problem in making blue-gray, which is only slightly less common than the existing yellow-green: [4]. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 11:36, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
  • It's in the OED. Dates and early citations are particularly interesting for terms like this. Ƿidsiþ 11:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

(Notifying Wyang, TAKASUGI Shinji, HappyMidnight): , also @Eirikr:

Is (dae) also a quoting particle, similar to the Japanese って (tte)? Can they be cognates? See example here with a question about 떴대 (tteotdae). 떴다 + 대? I'm more interested in a definition, the etymology may not be easy. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:09, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

It's from the well-known "Boys Over Flowers" @about 6:30. Korean and English simultaneous subtitles can be enabled in options. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 13:13, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: In functionality, yes, exactly, but etymologically it has nothing to do with the Japanese って. It is a contraction of -다 해. Its forms depend on a word class and tense it follows. It might be confusing with a euphemistic form (equivalent of Japanese and けど) for beginners.
Declarative Declarative Hearsay Euphemistic
Formal Informal Formal Informal Informal
Non polite Polite Non polite Polite Non polite Polite Non polite Polite Non polite Polite
한다 합니다 해요 한단다 한답니다 한대 한대요 하는데 하는데요
먹는다 먹습니다 먹어 먹어요 먹는단다 먹는답니다 먹는대 먹는대요 먹는데 먹는데요
있다 있습니다 있어 있어요 있단다 있답니다 있대 있대요 있는데 있는데요
했다 했습니다 했어 했어요 했단다 했답니다 했대 했대요 했는데 했는데요
좋다 좋습니다 좋아 좋아요 좋단다 좋답니다 좋대 좋대요 좋은데 좋은데요
책이다 책입니다 책이야 책이에요 책이란다 책이랍니다 책이래 책이래요 책인데 책인데요
할 거다 할 겁니다 할 거야 할 거예요/거에요 할 거란다 할 거랍니다 할 거래 할 거래요 할 건데 할 건데요
The pink cells are homophones (verbs whose radical ends with a consonant). — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 14:36, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
There are also the imperative hearsay -래 and the hortative hearsay -재. The interrogative hearsay -냬 exists but is not common. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:03, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
FWIW, I've fixed the etym at って (tte). ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 18:51, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: Great table, thank you! Is there anything worth adding in terms of a definition at (dae) as an example? --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:30, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
@Atitarev: Dictionaries often has four separate entries for informal non-polite register: -ㄴ대 (vowel-ending verbs), -는대 (neundae) (consonant-ending verbs), - (dae) (adjectives, existentials, past forms), - (rae) (copula), four for formal non-polite register, and four for fomal polite registers, with or without four for informal polite register. Korean has a lot of verb endings and we shouldn’t hesitate to include all of them. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 04:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

radeln

I just created the page for the German verb radeln. Could someone check over it please? Also I'm not sure if the verb is colloquial or not. Cheers Zumley (talk) 16:21, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

I think so, and de-wikt says so. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 19:26, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Yep. Looks good now. - -sche (discuss) 03:30, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
I think the "l" is forming a diminutive, so that the surface analysis should be Radel+n. But the noun (dialectical "Radel" perhaps, cf. Rädelchen, Radler). could be derived from the verb, so I am not sure. Not that it matters, just wondering because -eln is a red link, so while we are at it ... anyone have a clue? Doesn't it sound a bit yiddish, e.g. kabbeln, brabbeln, schmulen, schuseln ... Rhyminreason (talk) 02:57, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Indeed, there is רעדל‎ (redl‎) at ראָד (rod, wheel). Rhyminreason (talk) 00:16, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

knowledgable

According to knowledgable, it is a misspelling; according to knowledgeable, it is an alternative form. Which is it? To me, it looks like a misspelling, but some other dictionaries list it as legit. One source suggests that it is a US variant (I am British). Mihia (talk) 23:09, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

See -able#Usage notes. We should not judge correctness if the two are used, but data shows that the use of knowledgable is 50 times rarer and decreasing ([5]), which indicates it is considered a misspelling. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:54, 21 March 2018 (UTC)
Is that 50x thing a specific Wiktionary policy or just, you think, a reasonable conclusion to draw? Mihia (talk) 00:22, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Just my thought. When in doubt, define it as an alternate spelling rather than a misspelling. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 01:45, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
See knowledgable at OneLook Dictionary Search. Some have it as an alternative spelling; some have redirects; many don't include it. DCDuring (talk) 12:05, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
  • On the basis that at least two dictionaries (Oxford + M-W) list it as a legitimate variant, I have changed the label at knowledgable to "Alternative form of". On the basis that 'Ngrams' shows it to be 50 times less common, I have also added the label "rare". Mihia (talk) 18:50, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
I've had trouble with the use of rare in such cases. Hapax legomena are rare. Something that requires our best citation talent to get three cites for might be rare. This is just much less frequent. A usage note or some label after the form could indicate how much less frequent than the main form. The rare label seems unwarranted. DCDuring (talk) 01:07, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The suffix on the suffix...

How best to write etymologies for worserer, worsererer, worserererer, bestestestest, bestestestestest, and bestestestestestest? What sort of etys does the OED have for these, say? ("Empty not then the vials of scorn upon it. / Nor, since we're on the subject, should you scorn / The sonnet on the sonnet on the sonnet.") Equinox 05:52, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

What about, for example, "best + five repetitions of -est"? (Is that last word even verifiable?) — SGconlaw (talk) 07:01, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Erm, some of these should be redirects per WT:REPEATING. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 07:11, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
I'd put, "Alteration of best with reduplication of suffix." Ƿidsiþ 11:44, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

Body/Mind relationship

I have asked my doctor for a word that describes the relationship a person has with his body, as I have noticed that some people take great care of their body and its health while others abuse their bodies with drugs, both prescription and recreational. "Psychosomatic" does not fit. My doctor either did not understand what I was searching for, or did not know such a word. —This unsigned comment was added by LShecut2nd (talkcontribs).

Consciousness? Rhyminreason (talk) 02:19, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
There's body image. Can you give a sample sentence with a blank where the word should go? Equinox 12:17, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

squaw winter

Some books I've stumbled onto in the process of citing blackberry winter and its synonyms think that this can refer, in parts of Canada and perhaps elsewhere, to a cold snap in spring (like blackberry winter / blackthorn winter). Is anyone familiar with this usage? - -sche (discuss) 20:52, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

"my goodness" as an idiomatic expression

Hello! According to this page, "my goodness" is idiomatic. Why? The Sackinator (talk) 22:53, 22 March 2018 (UTC)

Why not? When you say “oh my goodness” you are not talking about your goodness. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 23:34, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Because people overuse {{lb|en|idiomatic}}, but I see it's been removed now. - -sche (discuss) 23:37, 22 March 2018 (UTC)
Is e.g. rhyming slang not idiomatic? Surely this was in the strict sense an idiom of those who do not dare use their lord's name in vain. It is still easily recognizable as such. Maybe people simply use a lot of idioms. Rhyminreason (talk) 02:46, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

thild

There appears to be no trace of the phrase "to have (no, little, much) thild" (or even of the existence of the lexeme "thild" in modern English after 1500), even "fossilised", or even just in dictionaries, anywhere on the internet, including google books, i.e. covering the past 400 years of the history of print. You would expect there to be the possibility of at least one example of the lexeme in actual use (alternatively, the lexeme would have to be moved out of "English" into "Old English" entirely). --Dbachmann (talk) 08:10, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

  • Well, Middle English. But yeah, it doesn't seem to have made it past the 13th century. Ƿidsiþ 11:16, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
    I've RFVed it. - -sche (discuss) 21:12, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

be quick about it, quick about it; be quick about, quick about

Is one of these entry worthy? There's “be quick slow about it” (US) / “be quick slow about it” (UK) in Macmillan Dictionary, but I dunno. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 11:12, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Usage of whom

I've just noticed that the usage notes of whom err too much on the side of making whom look too prevalent, speaking as a native English speaker who would never use whom, even in the most formal of situations, and has never heard it being used in my (admittedly imperfect) memory. Google Ngram Viewer shows that whom is pretty consistently only used one-tenth as much as who, which would be unexpected if it was consistently used in the objective case. Overall, I feel for me and for many native speakers of English like me, whom seems archaic and outmoded, or at least extremely/excessively formal, and the entry gives the mistaken impression that it plays a role in English that it doesn't. Additionally, the entry for who should display the objective case as "who or whom" (or maybe "whom or who") to better reflect the reality of some speakers.

Hazarasp (talk) 12:07, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

Overall usage of who vs. whom is irrelevant. What matters is usage of who vs. whom in an actual object position. See this Ngram, for example. --WikiTiki89 19:10, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
And even more strikingly, this one. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 19:46, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
@Mahagaja: I think that's more because of word order differences. If you use whom, you'd say "With whom did he go?" and "The people with whom he went.", while if you use who, you'd be more likely to say "Who did he go with?" and "The people he went with.", whereas "Whom did you see?" and "Who did you see?" have the same order. --WikiTiki89 20:15, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
That still shows that who is being used more than it the entries for who and whom imply; especially including whom as the only objective case in the entry for whom is misleading, especially for the spoken language. Hazarasp (talk) 01:49, 24 March 2018 (UTC)
  • I agree that the usage notes are poorly organised. Mihia (talk) 04:34, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

game adjective, sense 1

The quotation doesn't seem particularly illustrative of usage to me, and the synonyms are confusing me ("courageous"? "valiant"?). I was expecting things like down, up for, etc. Am I missing something? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 13:22, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

The courageous/valiant synonyms presumably intend the idea of soldiering gamely on in the face of adversity, i.e. being willing to continue despite setbacks. Equinox 15:44, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

orthotic

What does it mean to be of Greek type? DTLHS (talk) 20:29, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

I think it means the adjective is used of (regarding) Greek typography/print. Equinox 20:38, 23 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes, that must be it thanks. DTLHS (talk) 20:55, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

feel, feels

Regarding "feels": Is the 1809 line by King George III of England really the same sense as the modern internet-slang-y "my feels were hurt"? To me, "Dr. Pope confirms my feels that the side is no better & the tenderness to the feel as great as when he was last here" seems like that could also be the plural of a sense "a (vague, mental) impression" or "an act of feeling (fondling)".
Regarding "feel": is "a vague mental impression: you should get a feel of the area before moving in" really a different sense from "a vague understanding: I'm getting a feel for what you mean"?
- -sche (discuss) 21:12, 23 March 2018 (UTC)

I see a difference, but not in verbiage. There would be a notable difference, if you would want to categorize every kind of feeling imaginable, but that does not seem to be in our scope. "Feeling" et al are underspecific, so there is no reason to be specific here. "feels" is a simple plural of n. feel, so it doesn't merit its own page at all, in my humble opinion. Rhyminreason (talk) 19:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Radical of .

Hi! Now the character (chapter/article/movement) is classified under the radical like "" as Kangxi Dictionary did. But Kangxi said, its etymology is "ten (十) pieces of music (音) become one movement". Morden dictronaries - includes Revised Dictrionary of Ministry of Education (Taiwan), Xinhua Zidian (Mainland China) (11th ed. index page 111), and the Chinese Wiktionary - followed its etymology and classified it under the radical "". So which one is preferred? --Muhebbet (talk) 14:45, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

Radicals are there to search characters rather than to explain etymology. There are some characters whose etymology and radical don’t match.
Character Etymology Kangxi
Radical
Don’t you think it is easier to search and with the radical than and with the counterintuitive radicals? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:56, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
@TAKASUGI Shinji: I agreed. But said by Kangxi, radical of 章 is 立, and said by morden Chinese dictionaries, the correct radical of 章 is 音 (but 立 is error-toleranced) - they are both sourced. I mean do we just follow the the Kangxi dictionary? Or Japanese dictionaries never classify it under 音? --Muhebbet (talk) 16:56, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
@Muhebbet: I prefer multiple categorization if possible. Many Japanese kanji dictionaries have redirects. In this case they may have a redirect in 音 and a main entry in 立. — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 05:18, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

Neuter nouns in Hindi

I'm a little baffled by this Category:Hindi neuter nouns. Afaik Hindi only has two genders, masculine and feminine and the emptiness of this category seems to confirm that. So, why the category? Jcwf (talk) 19:59, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

@Jcwf: Good catch, deleted. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 23:50, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

expressive (noun sense)

I've added a noun section, but I've had trouble defining it because references vary in whether they consider it a synonym, a hypernym or a hyponym of ideophone. (For some examples of expressives, see here.) - -sche (discuss) 20:37, 24 March 2018 (UTC)

'Have' as a noun in NZ English

I put this on the discussion page for 'have' but per the suggestion decided to mention it here as well. 'Have' has a noun form in NZ English not mentioned on the page's definition. It means roughly something is a lie or a con or something illegitimate somehow, especially in the sense of justification. Mostly you hear it in the form of the understatement "is/it's a bit of a have". for example I might say "Steam deals can be a bit of a have. Some publishers will put their prices up before the sales start to inflate the discount percentages."

It's a spoken English thing so it mostly turns up on the net in transcribed quotes. An example from November 2017 on the stuff.co.nz article 'Go with the flow in Abel Tasman National Park': "Open your eyes" is the company's tagline and part of its mission is to wake us up to the area's history, to the fact that New Zealand's '100% pure' marketing is a bit of a have, as well as to share the encouraging conservation efforts under way."

Possibly from have on? If you're having someone on, you are trying to deceive them. Equinox 20:28, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
@Kiwima Maybe you've heard this? DTLHS (talk) 20:30, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
No, I haven't heard this specific one, but it seems very plausible to me - New Zealand English does this sort of thing a lot. Kiwima (talk) 20:33, 25 March 2018 (UTC)
  • Yeah it's from have on. You get it in Oz as well. Ƿidsiþ 08:19, 26 March 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done Created a noun at have (etymology 2). Please expand and cite. Equinox 20:47, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

reading comprehension, listening comprehension

reading comprehension” in the Collins English Dictionary, Glasgow: HarperCollins Publishers.. The definition ("a text that students use to help them improve their reading skills") makes me think this is somewhat idiomatic; or perhaps we should simply add a sense at comprehension. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:07, 26 March 2018 (UTC)

  • I don't think they are correct. As I understand it, reading comprehension is the act of reading and understanding such a text, not the text itself. SemperBlotto (talk) 06:26, 27 March 2018 (UTC)
I'm fairly sure in my English class in folkeskolen there were also set phrases for "the ability to express oneself verbally" and "the ability to express oneself in writing" in addition to the above, but I can't remember what they were.

lenite#English

Is the Celtic languages label here really appropriate? Lenition as a phonotactical phenomenon is not limited to this language family; indeed, lenition also occurs in Navajo and Japanese, among other places. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 17:41, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

@Eirikr: Seeing as lenition made no mention of Celtic languages specifically, I took the liberty of removing that from lenite. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:06, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

Passim

The word PASSIM appears in Microsoft Word, In the Table Of Authorities dialog box, as one of the options: The checkbox says "Use passim" without an explanation.

The MOS 2013 Study Guide - Microsoft Word Expert says, "Keep this check box selected if you want to use the term passim to indicate that information the citation refers to is scattered throughout the source. Clear this check box to list specific pages for each citation."

See passim. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 20:08, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

treason / high treason

Isn't there a difference between the two? I'm a bit surprised by our definition of treason, which seems overly specific.

Or maybe betrayal is the more general term? But its translation table is a redirect to that of treason too. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:57, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

See what other dictionaries do with treason and high treason and, for that matter, petit treason at OneLook Dictionary Search or petty treason at OneLook Dictionary Search. Our definition of high treason isn't too bad considering that absence of citations, labels, etc. Our entry for treason needs work, including the relationship to high and petit/petty treason. Legal definitions differ between US and UK. Probably most other English-speaking countries follow the UK's legal definition. DCDuring (talk) 21:12, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

take possession or take possession of

Does this merit an entry? --WikiTiki89 20:07, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

I don't know. Like the French prendre possession (de) (which does exist on fr.wikt), it sounds more like a common collocation than a real unit to me.
By the way, there's also come into possession. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 20:45, 29 March 2018 (UTC)
See take possession at OneLook Dictionary Search and take possession of at OneLook Dictionary Search. DCDuring (talk) 20:49, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

Category:en:Alcoholic beverages

Should terms like fall off the wagon (verb) be in Category:en:Alcoholic beverages? I'd think not but there are quite a few in there. Equinox 03:15, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I think it's OK if they are arranged at the beginning of the category using a space as the first character of the sorting key (e.g., "[[en:Alcoholic beverages| beer o'clock]]"). In that way, they are not listed in the alphabetical part of the category as a type of alcoholic beverage, which shows they are only allied terms. — SGconlaw (talk) 02:17, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
There are already a score of terms getting the treatment SGconlaw recommends and many more might be added: fifth, pint, shot, postprandial, etc. When there are so many, IMO we should use some other means to link the category to other terms, generally under a "See also" header. If [[fall off the wagon]] were in a relevant category we could link to that. In this case Thesaurus:drunk would work, whether or not fall off the wagon appeared in it, as it does not at present. If there is no suitable Thesaurus or Category page and a list of words merits ready availability from the category page, they could appear under a show-hide bar hidden by default. DCDuring (talk) 15:19, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Happy to go along with whatever the consensus is. — SGconlaw (talk) 07:59, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

The octopus in Crimean Tatar

I do not know much about Crimean Tatar, except that Wikipedia can't really decide whether it is mutually intelligible with Tatar (about which I also know nothing). But meanwhile, I was looking at blekksprut, the Norwegian for octopus, puzzling over its origin, until I spotted that "blekk" must be "black" (ink), so "sprut" must be something like "squirt". Then of course I noticed the Etymology, confirming "ink", but taking me to sprut.

  • Mystery 1: Is it plausible that sprut is the Crimean Tatar for octopus? This is one of many entries added by a contributor with reference to a genuine-looking dictionary; but how likely is it that this classic Germanic vowel cluster would just happen to make the CT identical to the end of the Norwegian name? Norwegian fishing boats in the Black Sea? I tried searching a list of Tatar words for 'spr' (actually in Cyrillic, спр) and found only "ekspres" (or similar). Seems fishy, or at least marine invertebratorial, to me.
  • Mystery 2: A web search on "sprut" (or "spruter", the present tense verb form) throws up pages of 50% dictionaries, 50% "erotik...", but this should surely be the very sprute as at Det Norske Akademis ordbok. I really don't know enough about Norwegian to make a new entry, and am not even quite sure how/why the stem form is "sprute".

Imaginatorium (talk) 07:21, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

@Imaginatorium: The mutual intelligibility with Tatar has nothing to do with the topic in question, does it? Both Crimean Tatar and Tatar are Turkic languages and they are similar as much as other Turkic languages are similar to each other. Crimean Tatar is closer to Turkish and (Volga) Tatar is closer to Bashkir and Bashkir Kyrgyz and both are heavily influenced by Russian. sprut is apparently a borrowing from Russian спрут (sprut) but I don't have access to the Crimean Tatar dictionary at the moment, so I can't confirm and I'm not 100% sure where the Russian term came from but it's not a native Russian word, obviously. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 07:44, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't think it can be a native Turkic word either, since I'm pretty sure those don't allow s + consonant clusters at the beginning of a word. But contact between the Varangians and the speakers of Crimean Tatar is not improbable. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 07:56, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks - that solves mystery 1, since a loan from Russian is obviously plausible. But mystery 2: I will change the etymology to point to a redlink "sprute", then hope someone can take it from there, or maybe I will have a go. Imaginatorium (talk) 03:24, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
My sources say the Crimean Tatar term is sekizayaq. The Crimean Tatar-Ukrainian dictionary mentioned in the reference says sprut=спрут. "спрут" is a large octopus in Russian or Ukrainian. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:23, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
The link pointed to sprut#Norwegian_Bokmål before the recent edit, so the whole question about Crimean Tatar is negligence on your part, which is understandable considering the misguidance that are blue color links to an nonexistent section, paired with the surprisingly fitting sense given at the top of the page. There might not be a lot of difference between sprut and sprute, but I'm curious.
Pinging @Donnanz Rhyminreason (talk) 02:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I wasn't responsible for the Crimean Tatar entry (entered before my time), however Einar Haugen (Norwegian English Dictionary) says sprut can be a squid, Ommastrephes sagittatus, which is an apparently outdated reference to Todarodes sagittatus, usually called akkar in Norwegian. Sprut is apparently an alternative name for the akkar. DonnanZ (talk) 09:08, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm almost certain that Crimean Tatar term was borrowed from Russian спрут (sprut) but I can't find anything about the etymology of the Russian term. Vladimir Dal defines the term in 1863-66 with alternative forms спруд (sprud), скрут (skrut), which make it sound native Slavic but I can't confirm it. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 11:39, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

April 2018

Syllables of whitening

The word whiten has a syllabic nasal at the end: /ˈwaɪt.n̩/ (“white-n”). Dictionary.com shows the pronunciation of whitening as /ˈwaɪt.n̩.ɪŋ/ (“white-n-ing”) having three syllables with a syllabic nasal in the middle, but that seems to be different from the audio file there. Isn’t it rather /ˈwaɪt.nɪŋ/ (“white-ning”) having two syllables? Similarly, isn’t whitener pronounced /ˈwaɪt.nɚ/ (“white-ner”) rather than /ˈwaɪt.n̩.ɚ/ (“white-n-er”)? — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 15:31, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

The two-syllable pronunciation is much more common in normal (rather than careful) speech. In normal speech there is sometimes a need to distinguish between terms like lightening and lightning. But in the more general case, is that kind of syllable-dropping lexical information rather than a general phenomenon of speech? DCDuring (talk) 15:45, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, it can vary from dialect to dialect. For example, I pronounce settler in three syllables with the /t/ realized as a flap: [ˈsɛɾl̩ɚ] and was quite astonished as a teenager when I heard someone from a different part of the States pronounce it in two syllables with the /t/ realized as a glottal stop: [ˈsɛʔlɚ]. This contrasts with butler, which both of us pronounced in two syllables with a glottal stop: [ˈbʌʔlɚ]. So it's not lexical in the sense that it's something specific to the word whitening, but it's still lexicographically relevant as it's not automatically predictable in all accents. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 17:04, 2 April 2018 (UTC)
As another datapoint, I have settler with two syllables but whitening and the like as invariably trisyllabic in my dialect (or at least idiolect (?)). It might be very difficult to pin down which pronunciations are normal in which dialects without finding academic research on the subject. — Vorziblix (talk · contribs) 21:17, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you guys. There seems no consensus among native speakers… — TAKASUGI Shinji (talk) 07:40, 5 April 2018 (UTC)
That is correct, and I can guarantee that in this matter you will find unconscious variability in pronunciation that most speakers and listeners will not notice, quite apart from regional and family-to-family variation. I strongly recommend specifying both pronunciations as valid alternatives. JonRichfield (talk) 03:49, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
I noticed that most American TV anchors pronounce [[meddling]] as three syllables. (I heard quite a few time when there's talk about 2016 election meddling). In Australia, I'm pretty sure, it's two syllables. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 04:18, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Italicising "especially" in sense lines

Italicising "especially" in sense lines is a practice that I dislike and sometimes undo. Example: person might be "any living creature, especially a human being". If you remove the italics, the line still makes perfect sense, and looks less prissy. The apparent distinction is that the italicised text should be interpreted on a "meta" level, i.e. X is defined as Y but is especially defined as Z; however, there is almost never any real difference between saying this and saying that X is defined as "Y, especially Z". I can't imagine us italicising thus: "any small dog, but never a poodle"; it also looks sillier the shorter the entry is. (Would you want italics on the "especially" in alevin?) Policy issue? Equinox 02:16, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Bonus argument: putting a word in italics isn't semantically useful either (it's not safe for automated tools to interpret those italics as a gloss etc., because italics inside a sense line could be a genus or anything), so if we are going to do this then we need some kind of template. Equinox 02:23, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
@Equinox so "if we are going ....", very funny. Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
I don't particularly like the italics, but see the "meta" distinction. Surely it is very common in dictionaries to abbreviate this to "esp.", and this distinctive abbreviation needs no italics to be distinguished from the word "especially" if it occurs in a definition. Why not use "esp." here? Imaginatorium (talk) 09:30, 3 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for the input; however, (i) "esp." and "especially" shouldn't be semantically different (even if they have historically been different in dictionaries); (ii) any actual difference is clearly based on the fact that paper dictionaries needed to save space for print purposes; for an Internet dictionary, saving the letters "-ecially" makes no difference (and would force a few users to look up "esp." to see what it means). Equinox 02:34, 5 April 2018 (UTC)

averceli

Can we give a direct translation or example, so we can understand something like "Questo utente ha imparato a programmare su uno ZX Spectrum 48k e a distanza di più di trent'anni si ritrova a programmare per lavoro dispositivi che non arrivano a 8kB di ram. Averceli 48kB!"? (Taken from here) Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:09, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

QAnon, The Storm

These proper nouns related to a conspiracy theory are citable under hot word criteria, but I'm not convinced that their inclusion is desirable and would appreciate some opinions on this. (For reference, "QAnon" or "Q" is an anonymous 4chan user and Trump supporter who purports to have Q-clearance and has originated "The Storm". "The Storm" or "Follow(ing) the White Rabbit" is a conspiracy theory among Trump supporters that postulates that the Mueller investigation is a "deep-state" effort to support Trump and round up a satanic paedophile ring supposedly operated by several prominent politicians.) ←₰-→ Lingo Bingo Dingo (talk) 10:50, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

Eastern Armenian: Feminine Ending for Nationalities

I'm working through Pimsleur's ten only-audio lessons in Eastern Armenian. Pimsleur always teaches you how to say "I am an American." along with how to say the L2 country's nationality. The male form is ամերիկացի - amerikats’i. The female form sounds like "amerikoohee" 1. How is that spelled in the Armenian alphabet? 2. Could that be added to the entry for ամերիկացի? With the corresponding Armenian words հայ, հայուհի (hay, hayuhi) the feminine form is listed under "derived term"

My guess is ամերիկուհի. Google translates from Armenian to English as "American woman" without any "did you mean ..." corrections.

(It can be very difficult to get Google to reveal feminine and formal 2nd-person plural forms where English is ambivalent.)

@Vahagn PetrosyanΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 17:16, 4 April 2018 (UTC)
What you heard on the audio is ամերիկուհի (amerikuhi). But use ամերիկացի (amerikacʿi) for both genders. The forms in -ուհի (-uhi) are linguistically marked. Using them is similar to using authoress for a female author. --Vahag (talk) 19:43, 4 April 2018 (UTC)

interrogative lemma and IPA

Are there interrogative lemmata? What is acceptable: to be, or not to be? or, to be, or not to be?
And please, could someone help: what IPA symbol would i use for an interrogative /ˈti ˈðeon ʝeˈnesθe?/ (for τι δέον γενέσθαι) Thank you sarri.greek (talk) 13:00, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

@Sarri.greek There are several here. The page title doesn’t get a ?, but you can add it to the head= (as in who's 'she', the cat's mother).
IPA has characters for intonation if Greek questions are marked with that, but I have never seen these characters used in Wiktionary. — Ungoliant (falai) 13:30, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Thank you @Ungoliant MMDCCLXIV: sarri.greek (talk) 13:42, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

amoret, bandon, delightous, etc.

I've been adding some quotes to words in Category:Requests for quotation/The Romaunt of the Rose. The text uses alternate spellings (e.g. baundon, delitous); I added them under alternative forms. Should these forms found in The Romaunt of the Rose be Middle English rather than English? Chaucer was certainly writing in Middle English. – Gormflaith (talk) 13:38, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes please. Webster 1913 did not clearly distinguish ME (or OE) from ModE; I should have entered them as ME in most cases. Equinox 13:39, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Alright, will do. Thanks. – Gormflaith (talk) 13:51, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

social pattern

This may or may not be a legitimate entry but the definition seems barely meaningful: "The systems of control mechanisms to dominate these entities of the organization to achieve a defined goal." Equinox 17:00, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

cubalibre etymology

It mentions a battle cry (i.e. "free Cuba!") but Rum and Coke says that the libre is an adjective, not a verb. Who's right? Equinox 18:01, 6 April 2018 (UTC)

"free Cuba" = "a Cuba that is free", it is not an imperative. DTLHS (talk) 18:03, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
Spanish has a word order that's the reverse of English's for adjectival modifiers, but not for verbs. If libre were a verb, the only way to say this as two words would be "Libre Cuba!". There's nothing wrong with a battle cry being a bare noun phrase- it's actually quite rare for them to be complete sentences. Chuck Entz (talk) 21:33, 6 April 2018 (UTC)
In fact, libre is an imperative verb form, corresponding to the subject usted, so ¡Libre Cuba! does mean "Free Cuba!" as an imperative, speaking formally to one person. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 05:47, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
But it's not "libre Cuba", it's "Cuba libre". DTLHS (talk) 05:59, 7 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, I know; I was responding to Chuck's sentence "If libre were a verb, the only way to say this as two words would be 'Libre Cuba!'"; I was pointing out that that sentence needn't be a hypothetical. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 06:58, 7 April 2018 (UTC)

pirog, pierogi

Should we merge these two pages into a singe main entry? DTLHS (talk) 05:43, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

My first answer is no. The etymologies are similar but not the same and they are different types of dishes, which is a confusion not only in the recipient languages but in the source languages as well, to some extent. Basically, these are mostly pies vs dumplings. Less confusion in Polish dumplings and Russian pies, more confusion in Ukrainian pies and dumplings. Care should be taken in English about which dish they are talking about and whose cuisine. --Anatoli T. (обсудить/вклад) 05:52, 8 April 2018 (UTC)
If you think about it, the main difference between a Russian пиро́г (piróg) and a Polish pieróg is the type of dough. --WikiTiki89 17:16, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

tailgut

There seems to be something called a 'tailgut cyst', so there must be another meaning of 'tailgut' which I didn't put when I started the entry, but I can't find its meaning on its own. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 18:01, 8 April 2018 (UTC)

(It seems to be mentioned in Daniel John Cunningham's Text-book of Anatomy. —Suzukaze-c 00:17, 9 April 2018 (UTC))
I see plenty of uses in a medical sense and also in a music sense. Alternative spellings tail gut and tail-gut seem attestable, possibly in both senses. DCDuring (talk) 02:40, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Suzukaze-c: Thank you, for some reason that is not accessible in my location. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 00:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
@DCDuring: Thanks, the music sense is the only one I knew. I can't add the other sense of 'tailgut', though. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 00:05, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks for adding that sense. Kaixinguo~enwiktionary (talk) 19:45, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Definition of burn missing sense of nuclear fusion

The definition of "burn" does mention the sense in which the term os used here, for example: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxygen-burning_process

"The oxygen-burning process is a set of nuclear fusion reactions that take place in massive stars that have used up the lighter elements in their cores. Oxygen-burning is preceded by the neon-burning process and succeeded by the silicon-burning process.”

There are also hydrogen burning, helium burning and carbon burning processes.

罣礙/挂碍 (guà'ài/ke(i)ge/ga-ae)

Term found in the Heart Sutra, appears to be translation of Sanskrit आवरण (āvaraṇa, covering, or other meanings in this link). Is there a modern term for this in any of the three major East Asian languages? You can check the usage examples at 菩提薩埵.

Also, can this be allowed to be added by CFI? Likely archaic/obsolete term in my view. ~ POKéTalker (ŦC) 04:24, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

@Poketalker: This term is still used in modern Chinese, but it's now more often written as 掛礙挂碍 (guà'ài). Even if it were archaic, I don't see why it would not be allowed by CFI, unless you're talking about a specific Buddhist sense different from the ones listed in the entry. From the translation at 菩提薩埵, it seems to translate to "obstruction", which is easily attestable in Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 05:23, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@Justinrleung:, thanks. Thought was an obsolete variant for /. Still, in traditional and non-Chinese texts, the sutra uses 罣. Interesting... ~ POKéTalker (ŦC) 04:02, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
@Poketalker: No, 罣 is not obsolete, just rare in simplified Chinese and a bit uncommon in traditional Chinese. — justin(r)leung (t...) | c=› } 04:06, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

taruf, tarruf, teruf, terf

See Citations:terf: taruf, tarruf, teruf and terf seem to be one or more lexemes for a unit of land in India. Are any of them citable in English? What is the etymon and specific meaning? (Pinging @AryamanA, Mahagaja as users who might know or know how to look it up in Sanskrit or Hindi dictionaries.) - -sche (discuss) 17:26, 9 April 2018 (UTC)

Sanskrit doesn't have an /f/ sound; if this word exists in Hindi it's probably a borrowing from Persian and/or Arabic. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 19:00, 9 April 2018 (UTC)
@-sche: It's तरफ़ (taraf, side, face; direction) judging by the first quote, but I haven't heard of any relation to units of land for it. (I'm also not a farmer though) I'll check my dictionaries and see if anything can be cited. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 01:17, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
I found Bengali তরফ (tôrôph, revenue-collection area) (source). It is cognate to the Hindi word, and judging by this Hindi dictionary's "Mughal glossary" it meant the same thing in Hindi-Urdu during Mughal rule. I'll add the definitions to the Hindi entry. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 01:22, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks. I've created an entry for taraf. It's not common, but I think that's just because tarafs are not often mentioned (rather than that taraf is a rare word for a concept often referred to using another word), so I haven't labelled it "rare" or "uncommon". - -sche (discuss) 15:51, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Term shoefie / quotations

How to add / correct quotations? Just came across your definition of this term and noticed the earliest dated quotations are from 2015. However, I have invented this term back in 2014 for our Photoresk art expo in Brussels when I introduced the first automatic shoefie machine. Here is still the web-site of the expo https://disclosure.photoresk.com/shoefies/ How can I have this information amended? Thank you. Claus Siebeneicher claus@photoresk.com

I expect that this dialog will appear on the entry's talk page. Generally we only show citations from "durably archived" sources, which excludes sites only archived on archival sites that may themselves not be durable. DCDuring (talk) 14:24, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

Just curiosity

Is it "As continue conveys the sense of progression, it is pleonastic to follow it with on" equals to the following?

  • ..., it is pleonastic following it with on
  • ..., following it with on is pleonastic

Is one of the ways more formal or diachronically/diatopically marked? Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 13:09, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

"it is pleonastic to follow it with on" and "following it with on is pleonastic" are both fine (I'm not sure if there is a difference in formality). But "it is pleonastic following it with on" is wrong, although if you insert a comma "it is pleonastic, following it with on" then it sounds very colloquial or as though the clarification is an afterthought, meaning you meant to just say "it is pleonastic" and then realized you need to add "following it with on". --WikiTiki89 15:41, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
The former it is not fine because it contains "it" twice with different meaning in it. Rhyminreason (talk) 20:48, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
That's not the reason. --WikiTiki89 20:51, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

wazoo, up the wazoo, out the wazoo

Are these in fact vulgar, as currently labelled? I thought they were euphemistic/bowdlerized words, somewhat like hoo-ha. - -sche (discuss) 16:19, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

These are euphemistic and about as mild as hoo-ha, like you say. Also, it might be worth mentioning that "wazoo" doesn't really exist outside of these two phrases. Ultimateria (talk) 18:15, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
By vulgar we mean "Language considered distasteful or obscene." per Appendix:Glossary. I wouldn't call these obscene and don't think most others would either. If they were truly distasteful E*Trade wouldn't have used "out the wazoo" in their award-winning ad. I suppose they are just informal. DCDuring (talk) 18:23, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Thanks; I relabelled them as "colloquial". - -sche (discuss) 16:40, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

heraldry term?

I can't find a translation of the Catalan adjective caironat, but I can translate the definition as "In heraldry, that rests on one of its angles, applied to square coats of arms". What is the English term? Ultimateria (talk) 18:13, 10 April 2018 (UTC)

I don't know, but maybe you can find it if you browse http://www.apl385.com/gilling/herldref.htm. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 18:30, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
Es diu cantoned. Bona nit! 猛犸象牙 (talk) 22:04, 10 April 2018 (UTC)
er no. — If I needed such a term I'd probably say lozengewise or bendwise. —Tamfang (talk) 05:55, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Yeah, a couple years ago I spent ages trying to find a translation for caironat too. Never got one. --Cien pies 6 (talk) 12:44, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, I've at least added the definition given above (confirmed by Wikimedia Common's category of "Caironat shields"). Probably "(of a square) lozengewise" or "...diamondwise" would cover it. - -sche (discuss) 16:39, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Pornocracy

I made a change in the page Pornocracy, translating Sæculum as Century. It was translated as age and someone undone my translation just because in the Wikipedia page is translated as age but in Latin, Sæculum means century, not age, epoch or whatever. Latin for age is aetate. Someone can help me?

That's a different sense of age. Here is the entry in the dictionary nearest to my hand (Smith & Lockwood):
saeculum (poet. saeclum), ī, n. I. the period of one generation (i.e. 33⅓ years), a generation. 1. Lit. a. Prop.: Cic., Verg., Liv., etc. b. More vaguely: aureum, Cic.; Pyrrhae, Hor. 2. Transf. a. the people living at a particular time, a generation : Pl., Lucr., Cic., Verg., etc. b. In pl.  : successive generations, races : Lucr. c. the spirit of the age, the times : nec corrumpere et corrumpi saeculum vocatur. Tac. II. the full period of a man's life, a period of a hundred years, a century. a. Prop.: Varr., Cic., Hor. b. More vaguely : an age : Cic. [It secolo ; Fr. siècle.]
Tamfang (talk) 06:08, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

righteous among the nations

Is this really plural only? And are there alternative capitalisations? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 12:37, 11 April 2018 (UTC)

Really the English phrase is an adjective. The Hebrew phrase is plural (but perhaps it can be used in the singular as well). On a separate note, this is the name of an award, is it really dictionary-worthy? --WikiTiki89 16:32, 11 April 2018 (UTC)
There's some singular use: "[name] was honored as a Righteous Among the Nations in [year]" (with a it's singular and a noun). But is there enough for attestation? The adjectival use, e.g. "the Righteous among the Nations award", could also be a noun in an English spaced semi-compound, but in this case it's no title. As a title, if that exists, it could be a noun too like Lord is a title and a noun. -80.133.99.58 10:12, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
The ordinary use is adjectival "he was recognized as Righteous Among the Nations". Without the "a", it's adjectival. I didn't say that a title can't be a noun. Not all titles are the same. --WikiTiki89 14:15, 12 April 2018 (UTC)
Recently, there was an interesting discussion about (the) use of (the) articles at Wiktionary:Information_desk#that's_the_wrong_direction. Grammar is complicated and apparently arbitrary. Rhyminreason (talk) 21:06, 12 April 2018 (UTC)

en-

These definitions are...pretty bad. Is this the page to find volunteers for rewriting definitions? I'm terrible at lexicography and I don't know where to ask. Ultimateria (talk) 00:45, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Can you point out what you are dinding badly written? The ety is complicated, the definitions seem straight forward.
No, this is not the page for a request like that. At least you need to be more specific. Rhyminreason (talk) 08:04, 13 April 2018 (UTC)
The definitions are incredibly vague. "Covered" how? How does "caused" apply to a prefix? At the very least, each sense needs an example. Ultimateria (talk) 22:31, 15 April 2018 (UTC)
@Ultimateria: Just ignore him. You're right, this entry needs work. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 22:34, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

onomatophobia

Found at Category:English entries that don't exist

  1. pathological fear of hearing a specific word or name.
    A classic case of onomatophobia is the actors' superstition for the word “Macbeth”‎; they never utter it, but use euphemisms instead: “The Scottish Play”‎, “MacBee”‎.

sarri.greek (talk) 19:49, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

It had two citations already; I've managed to find at least one more. Ten years after Conrad's comment that it'd be nice if someone could find a third citation, it's finally citable! So I've resurrected the entry. :)
A miracle! Two...! How nice of you @-sche:. Your citations, always inspiring, especially for us, non-anglophones. Thanks sarri.greek (talk) 21:19, 13 April 2018 (UTC)

Kakistocracy etymology appears to be wrong -- please help

Hi,

I don't the time right now learn how to contribute (but I would like to do so).

Problem: The word "kakistocracy" is topical in the current political environment re Trump, but the entry in Wiktionary has an apparently wrong attribution in its Etymology.

Specifically, the current Etymology states that "The word was coined by the English author Thomas Love Peacock (1785–1866) in his 1829 novella The Misfortunes of Elphin as the opposite of aristocracy (see the quotation)."

However, there is a credible citation to a much earlier (1829-1644=185) use of the word:

1644, Paul Gosnold, "A SERMON preached at the PUBLIQUE FAST the ninth day of Aug. 1644 at St. Maries, OXFORD, BEFORE the honorable Members of the two Houses of PARLIAMENT, There assembled. By PAUL GOSNOLD Master of Arts. And published by authority.", OXFORD, Printed Henry Hall. Cover+30 pages. Early English Books Online-Text Creation Partnership (EEBO-TCP Phase 1) Ann Arbor, MI (USA); Oxford (UK), 2008-09 URL: https://quod.lib.umich.edu/e/eebo/a41582.0001.001/21:A41582.0001.001?page=root;size=125;vid=94937;view=text

"Therefore we need not make any scruple of praying against such: [...] against those tempests of the State, those restlesse spirits who can no longer live, then be stickling and medling; who are stung with a perpetuall itch of changing and innovating, transforming our old Hierarchy into a new Presbytery, and this againe into a newer Independency; and our well-temperd Monarchy into a mad kinde of Kakistocracy." (pages 17-18)

So, someone, please check this out and perhaps edit the entry accordingly.

DLAnderson

  • Seems legit. I've amended the entry accordingly. Thanks. Ƿidsiþ 13:55, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

How'd Chell survive sleeping without waking up for anything, for 5 million years?

Also, what's the word for the definition "1 million years"? Please answer both questions. - I is American English.

mega-annum or megayear. The Chell question isn't relevant to a dictionary; try asking at Wikipedia. Equinox 00:00, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

It's a Portal 2 question. It's about a game. Let someone from Game Theory answer that one. Also, I thought I was on Wikipedia. - I is American English.

Hylax

Anyone have an idea where the name of the wolf-like dog in Lessing's fable has it's name from, what it means? These are closely modeled after Aesop's fables. "Hylax" looks foreign enough to be from Greek, as the less mysterious Lykodes from the same story, while the well known Meister Lampe seems to be a pun on french lapin (rabbit) and Lampe (lamp). Is it related to hyena (which has a surprising etymology)? Also a play on words? Here's the reference at Deutsches Textarchiv. --Rhyminreason (talk) 02:42, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

See LSJ for some Greek words that seem to have the same root. The stem seems to be a verb meaning "bark, howl". L&S has an entry for Hylax, the proper name of some dog, glossed as Barker. DCDuring (talk) 03:33, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

å#Norwegian_Bokmål

Hello,

Is there any particular reason there are two sections « Letter » for this entry—perhaps could they be merged? — Automatik (talk) 10:53, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes check.svg Done (formatting of the first letter section was obvy not correct: definition about head, missing definition in the definition section). -84.161.4.90 23:56, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Please advise how to add the word "citadel" as a reference to a Salvation Army place of worship

I would like add the word "citadel" (a Salvation Army place of worship but there doesn't seem to be a "wizard" tool to assist people in adding content to wiktionary. A google search for:

"citadel definition Salvation Army"

turned up the following results:

www.thefreedictionary.com www.thefreedictionary.com%2FSalvation%2BArmy&usg=AOvVaw1zQvNFW1XtNBCNHZgR8s9K

en.oxforddictionaries.com en.oxforddictionaries.com%2Fdefinition%2Fcitadel&usg=AOvVaw3qdipkGXdyPgQ6qEbbuW0t

www.bbc.co.uk www.bbc.co.uk%2Fnorfolk%2Fcontent%2Farticles%2F2007%2F08%2F20%2Ffaith_salvation_army_20070820_feature.shtml&usg=AOvVaw2Csd_-zhJkE-QWGQ4oYgjm

www.sheffieldcitadel.co.uk www.sheffieldcitadel.co.uk%2Falpha%2F&usg=AOvVaw1dfWbnaFedZAif43tfUCJq

Please help. Adrian816 (talk) 14:14, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

spin alley, spin row

WP gives these as synonyms of spin room. Is that correct? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:19, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

single-issue

As in "single-issue politics", "single-issue party". Is this lexicalised? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 15:24, 15 April 2018 (UTC)

treasure chest

"The chest that held the royal treasury." What royal treasury does this refer to specifically? ---> Tooironic (talk) 02:35, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

“Sugar beet” in Persian

In “Lauferica” (1987, Orient), Eiichi Imoto writes:

On the streets of Iran boiled sugar beets sell well. The sugar beet (Beta vulgaris) is called labū or lapū in Persian. Pers. labū or lapū is derived from Pahl. *lapūy, *lapūg or *lapūk. Pahl. *lapūk is derived from O Pers. *lā̆pūka-.

Can these Persian words be confirmed, and what are their native-script forms? @ZxxZxxZ Could you help? Hayyim has:

لبو (laboo) Noun Boiled beet.

And Steingass:

لبلبو lablabū, Beet boiled and eaten with whey and garlic.

Asking because these words bear an interesting resemblance to Chinese 蘿蔔 (and variants, < Old Chinese *rabuk ?).

Also, could the Persian be borrowed from Akkadian 𒇻𒊬 (laptu, liptu, turnip) (~ Hebrew לֶפֶת (lefet, turnip), Classical Syriac ܠܰܦܬܳܐ (laftā, turnip), Arabic لِفْت (lift, turnip)), like proposed in TURNIP in Encyclopædia Iranica? Is the -ūka an explainable element?

Thanks in advance! Wyang (talk) 13:26, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

There are lots of interesting resemblances when it comes to words for turnips: there are cognates or borrowings to the Akkadian word in Arabic and Hebrew, Latin has rāpum and nāpus, and Greek has νᾶπῠ (nâpu) (said to be a possible borrowing from Egytian). My impression is that there's a very old word for turnip and related plants (see Ancient Greek σῐ́νᾱπῐ (sínāpi), for instance) that's been wandering around the Middle East and elsewhere for thousands of years, perhaps as long as there have been domesticated turnips. Sugar beets, on the other hand, are only a couple of centuries old. New things tend to receive variations of existing names for similar things, so this is what one would expect. Chuck Entz (talk) 14:06, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
Don't forget Ancient Greek ῥάπυς (rhápus), which corresponds to the Iranic cognate most closely. Crom daba (talk) 00:33, 17 April 2018 (UTC)
The sense "boiled beet" is correct for لبو (labu) and لبلبو (lablabu), but regarding لبلبو (lablabu) in particular, it is less common in Iran, and I can't confirm that particular sense based on dictionaries other than Steingass. لبلبو (lablabu) also has other senses in some dialects of Iran, including "blackberry" in Persian of Gorgan. --Z 09:41, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
@ZxxZxxZ Thank you! Any luck with the Middle and Old Persian forms? They look like they were taken from somewhere, though it is not clear what the source for them was. Wyang (talk) 09:50, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
No problem. We can derive it from Middle Persian because the suffix ـو (-u) (from Middle Persian suffix [Term?] (/-ūg/)) which forms adjectives from nouns (if I'm not mistaken) is not a productive suffix in Persian, though I know it is a productive suffix in some other modern Iranian dialects, beside Middle Iranian languages. The first component could be لب (lab, lip). --Z 15:46, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

OED sex and gender

The last OED update included a load of revisions and additions to terms related to sex and gender – there's a very interesting summary of it here which I think even non-subscribers can access. Since this is an area we've struggled with a bit, and which attracts a lot of attention, it might be a useful read. Ƿidsiþ 07:47, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Their update pages are visible to non-subscribers and can be an interesting source of information and ideas, or at least an interesting read.--Prosfilaes (talk) 20:30, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

underneath

Can someone clean up underneath? The quotes for the adverb use the word below instead of underneath, and I'm not convinced that her underneath is an adverb. It should be a noun, fitting that definition well. Danielklein (talk) 09:05, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Good catch. Looks like someone had a thinko. — Ungoliant (falai) 12:36, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

schmule

seems to require a proper definition. Equinox 09:08, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Seems, shmeems. DCDuring (talk) 19:27, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
Memes. —Suzukaze-c 02:01, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Note: This was deleted without RFD. Rhyminreason (talk) 03:35, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
By the entry's creator and sole contributor. DCDuring (talk) 03:41, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

RFV: sweep for English natives

Did I write this "# An expanse or a swath, a strip of land." taken from swath right?

In other words: are swath, expanse, sweep, spread, stretch all synonyms?

Sobreira ►〓 (parlez) 09:39, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Yes. Swath might be dated; sweep might be 'literary'. There are probably other slight differences in usage, but not much in definition, IMO. DCDuring (talk) 19:16, 18 April 2018 (UTC)
I'm English and "swath" doesn't work for me. But "swathe" does. A vast swathe of southern England.
I learned it as swath (noun), as in "a broad swath of the population", and swathe (verb), as in "the forest was swathed in fog". Similar to breath (noun) + breathe (verb), or loath (adjective) and loathe (verb), where the verb forms have voiced final consonants. ‑‑ Eiríkr Útlendi │Tala við mig 04:01, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

Serbo-Croatian budemo/будемо

@Crom daba, Demilux, Dijan, Maria Sieglinda von Nudeldorf, Vorziblix and anyone else who knows Serbo-Croatian: an anon just created budemo/будемо and called it a pronoun meaning "we". Is that right? I thought it was a verb form, but I don't know Serbo-Croatian. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 19:32, 18 April 2018 (UTC)

Now cleaned up by Per utramque cavernam. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 11:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Night of Broken Glass

WP gives this as a translation of German Kristallnacht, but the evidence of GB looks pretty scarce. Is it actually used? --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 09:50, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

Google Books makes it pretty clear it's a translation of Kristallnacht. HathiTrust offers at least this cite for a use; there seems to be a lot more if we accept versions in quotes.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:59, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Well, it's not a proper translation of Kristallnacht; at best it's a semi-calque (Nacht = night; Kristall = crystal – broken glass) or explanation.
"quotes" as in usages with quotation marks (AKA quotes) around it, or as in citations? If it's the second, there could be a proper non-quote usage (only "could", as there are exceptions like the quote not being a proper quote but a translation). -84.161.4.90 23:53, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

брегова

So, I'm creating entries in Bulgarian now apparently. I figure брегова means coastal, but is probably not the lemma. Then I get no further, as I suck at Bulgarian. Can someone check the entry? --Cien pies 6 (talk) 13:45, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

If you suck at Bulgarian, maybe you should leave the creation of Bulgarian entries to people who don't. —Mahāgaja (formerly Angr) · talk 13:55, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
I totally agree with you! --Cien pies 6 (talk) 17:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)
Yes check.svg Done --WikiTiki89 16:09, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

hogging

Sense 2 of the noun ("Taking up too much of something so others cannot use it"). Is that not just the present participle of hog? – Gormflaith (talk) 21:51, 19 April 2018 (UTC)

-cast suffix entry?

Should we have one? It seems to have developed its own life and personality beyond the parent broadcast. Possible candidates might include blogcast, multicast, nowcast, peercast, podcast, unicast, videocast, vodcast. Equinox 07:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

That would be a normal development. The uses in peercast, singlecast, and unicast, in particular, seem to contrast with the meaning in broadcast. And it doesn't seem like a return to cast#Verb. DCDuring (talk) 23:32, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

exuvi-um-a-ae

I am doing a bit of editing and encountered Wikipedia's [6] in which they say, mostly believably (to me anyway, Latin always was Greek to me)
"The Latin word exuviae, meaning "things stripped from a body", is found only in the plural. Exuvia is a derived singular usage that is becoming more common, but in fact this is incorrect. Only a single work by Propertius uses the term Exuvium as a singular form"
In the Wiktionary entry OTOH, we have a whole table of Latin inflections, singular and plural, and ploughing through Ainsworth, I don't see where the author of that table got her/his authority from. I am tempted to edit the item in line with WP's entry, but could I first beg a bit of input at this end.

I must admit that exuvia/e always did set my teeth on edge, just as virus/i did (as I am sure it used to set true-blue Romans' on edge, who never failed to say "viruses" whenever they desired the plural), but let that wait till we have these exuviuses settled.

Cheers JonRichfield (talk) 11:51, 21 April 2018 (UTCT)

The Cassell's New Latin Dictionary gives only "exuviae, -arum". All the examples given are in the plural. Caeruleancentaur (talk) 19:07, 21 April 2018 (UTC)
Georges' dict gives "exuvium, iī, n. (exuo), Nbf. v. exuviae (w. s.), Prop. 4, 10, 6." and "Sing. exuvia, ae, f., Augustin. serm. 59, 1 Mai (nova bibl. patr. 1. p. 118).". In later ML and (early) NL, exuvia could have become more common than in antique Latin and early ML. It's possible that the "is becoming more common" properly is "is becoming more common IN ENGLISH". -84.161.5.181 22:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

question

hi why very words in wiktionary not reference in bodem of word

Maybe doesn't properly answer the question, but English Wiktionary has WT:CFI (rules for inclusion) and WT:RFV (for verification if a term really exists by Wiktionary's inclusion rules). Reference material, like dictionaries, can have invented terms which English wiktionary doesn't accept. -84.161.5.181 22:09, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

Borinquen

So, I'm creating entries in Taíno now apparently. I figure Borinquen means Puerto Rico, but it is probably missing something. I get no further, as I suck at Taíno. Can someone check the entry? --Cien pies 6 (talk) 18:29, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

No way this is attested, right? @Victar, -scheΜετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 21:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

ανάμεσα

This is a preposition, not an adverb, right? Caeruleancentaur (talk) 19:03, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

No, I think it's an adverb indeed; it's always used (as far as I know) with σε (se), which is the real preposition. --Per utramque cavernam (talk) 19:16, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

estage

This seems like some kind of restaurant term:

2017 November 26, Natange Smith, “How To Cook Like A Bajan with Chef Rhea Gilkes”, in Nation News[7]:
It was at The Cliff restaurant where I did estage for six months, I was then hired by Sandy Lane Hotel.

Also [8], "I am definitely planning on returning to the Fat Duck for another estage, don’t get me wrong it’s no summer camp, it is very (very!) hard work from the early hours of the morning until late into the night."

What does it mean? DTLHS (talk) 23:34, 21 April 2018 (UTC)

  • I believe that it is an internship - where the person works for (next to) nothing but gets experience. With luck he gets offered a job at the end. SemperBlotto (talk) 10:31, 22 April 2018 (UTC)

odegracie

So, I'm creating entries in Polish again apparently. I figure odegracie is a form of odegrać, going by what grać says. A couple of dictionaries say it's role-play, but what do I know? I suck at Polsih. Can someone check the entry? --Cien pies 6 (talk) 07:29, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

ashiyu

Is this Japanese term (in Wikipedia) common enough in English? DonnanZ (talk) 14:55, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Autarchy/autarky

The article autarchy claims autarky as a synonym. It is not! It is a homophone with an entirely different meaning. I tried to correct it but was reverted and referred to this page to discuss. Is there a convincing reason to permit this error to persist? --88.97.11.54 15:01, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Following the advice at template:rfv, I had a look at Google books and found this, which reports the OED as saying that the terms have been used interchangeably. So I guess the article has to reflect reality, even if reality is wrong[!]. But it matters: North Korea is both an autarchy and an autarky whereas the Irish Free State was the latter but definitely not the former. So surely there ought to be indicator that caution is advised? --88.97.11.54 15:15, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
If there is a reliable source stating that the words are not equal, you could add a usage note with the source as reference. -80.133.104.193 23:00, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Hindi

So, apparently I'm editing i Hindi now. I took a stab at तालियों. --Cien pies 6 (talk) 20:48, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

I'm so sorry, @AryamanA. —Μετάknowledgediscuss/deeds 20:59, 23 April 2018 (UTC)
@Cien pies 6, Metaknowledge: It's good. I'll try to add the WT:ACCEL entry creation shortcuts for the inflection tables at some point. —AryamanA (मुझसे बात करेंयोगदान) 21:44, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Please do not edit section titles as this breaks links on talk pages and in other discussion fora.


Translations of the week
1 cow
3 weasel


Collaboration of the week
{{rft}}s

snitch
coffee
vive la différence
seal
toss around
seven-up
arduous
famously
last
in bed
Manchurian
affluent
hump
beaujolais
fuddle
rare
shortcut
squared
drove
drawl
morna
collating
Twi
texted
geeminy
sumti tcita
husbando
stanchion
ya
mura
time
dzesinu
widdershins
disenchant
chiause
chaoosh
kaka
if
camouflage
attention
みょうが
goatfucker
electrocute
times
Advaita
aio
Koxinga
texed
Kajkavian

if I had a nickel for every time
regnbuefamilie
mango

alt-left
scallop

over skyerne er himlen altid blå


malloot
ten to


then
dog hunter

to death
theme



-tion
reset
Ullans
scrit

Somalian
缿

thild

November 2007

biphasic note

I extracted this from biphasic. Is it music or acoustics or ?. DCDuring 19:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

--I think biphasic always can't be treated as music.It can be taken as acoustics. This approach is also supported by physics. --Etymologist 14:18, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

mooses

Just searching for the heck of it, it looks like mooses was at one time used as plural of moose. [9] the 4th entry down shows usage in John/Abigail Adams' letter(s). Should this be listed as rare, dated, archaic? I am unsure. sewnmouthsecret 21:17, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

What language are you referring to?—msh210 21:37, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
English, apparently; see <http://books.google.com/books?id=wkgMY68hQ2oC&pg=PA272&dq=mooses>. —RuakhTALK 21:55, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I thought John Adams would have given it away. :) Anyway, English. sewnmouthsecret 23:44, 1 November 2007 (UTC)

impact

The question I have here is what labels should be applied to the figurative definitions of the word "impact". Currently the noun is labelled "colloquial" and the verb "nonstandard"; in my opinion neither term is accurate. At best the usage should be described as "disputed".

I guess part of the problem is that I'm not sure what these terms mean other than that they're intended to be negative. According to the Merriam Webster's Concise Dictionary of English Usage (p 406), the figurative verb usgae first appeared in literary contexts such as Christopher Morley and the Times Literary Supplement. Although it later became associated with politics, the usage is very widespread. Google News returns 200,000+ hits for the term, and the majority of them are the figurative use. The label "colloquial" thus seems wrong to me, and I don't see how something that is used that widely in the copy-edited prose of newspapers can be considered "nonstandard". No print dictionary I looked at gave any special label to the figurative senses, although they attached usage notes discussing the controversy.

The usage notes are generally in favor of the usage; the Random House says "Although recent, the new uses are entirely standard and most likely to occur in formal speech and writing."

—This unsigned comment was added by 68.180.45.200 (talk) at 23:46, 1 November 2007 (UTC).

Agreed. —RuakhTALK 23:59, 1 November 2007 (UTC)
I couldn't quite follow this. What has been proposed? What has been agreed?
  • Is the noun sense "A significant or strong influence. An effect. (Disputed)" to remain "Disputed" or to be considered standard?
  • Is the verb sense "(nonstandard) To influence; to affect; to have an impact on" to remain "nonstandard" or become "Disputed"?
  • What is the appropriate placement and capitalization for these indicators?
I interpret "nonstandard" to be more strongly negative about a usage, suggested some kind of consensus among relevant experts and "disputed" as meaning lack of such consensus. I had the general impression that the figurative usage of the verb "impact" was more negatively viewed than the figurative noun usage. Is that impression correct? If it is, I would have thought that the noun sense has become standard, but could be considered "disputed", but that the verb sense might remain in "dispute", but can no longer be viewed as nonstandard. DCDuring 01:35, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm agreeing that this word is neither colloquial nor nonstandard. (Some contributors — none of our regulars, I don't think, but mostly anons who drop in once and make a few tweaks — appear to think that "colloquial" means "this is technically wrong, but it's so common that I guess it's O.K. in colloquial speech". They are mistaken. Also, some contributors appear to think that "nonstandard" means "I don't like this usage" or perhaps "widely used and widely reviled"; this is an iffier point, but I'd say that they're mistaken as well.) {{proscribed}} might be O.K., though. —RuakhTALK 16:15, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
I have inserted "proscribed" for the verb use of "impact" and removed "colloquial" from the "effect" sense of the noun, based on the above. DCDuring 18:37, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

irregardless

Another hot button topic, but the labels and usage note on the "irregardless" page seem out of sync with the quotations. There are five quotations given, spanning 130 years. Three are academic publications from university presses, and one was written by a judge in a court opinion. Given those citations, labels like "nonstandard", "illiteracy", "usually inappropriate in formal contexts" and "jocular" seem odd. I think what probably needs to be done is to expand the quotations list to show more informal uses of the term, and perhaps expand the usage note as well, but I'm not completely sure how this should be done. —This comment was unsigned.

That's because the labels and usage note were written by "anti" editors, and the quotations were added by "pro" editors. Personally, I think the usage note is actually quite fine; it looks like an accurate description of the word's status. The labels should probably be replaced with {{proscribed}}, which is our catch-all "this exists, but not everyone's happy about it" label (c/o Rodasmith). —RuakhTALK 16:09, 2 November 2007 (UTC)
Inserted proscribed, left in mainly US and jocular. DCDuring 18:54, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I think we've dealt with this one pretty well, on balance. Widsith 11:56, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

due course

I am not sure that due course is or was an idiom. It might have just been SoP until the last two or three centuries. "In due course" would seem to be an idiom, especially if "due course" alone is not. I have 4 usage examples, but am not happy with my third attempt to define it. DCDuring 23:27, 2 November 2007 (UTC)

I would put the entry as in due course with label Category:English prepositional phrases Algrif 14:00, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

loyal to a fault

what does it mean?
loyal to a fault
—This comment was unsigned.

It means “so loyal that it could be considered a fault”; perhaps the person being described is loyal even when the object of his loyalty is shown not to deserve it. —RuakhTALK 22:06, 3 November 2007 (UTC)

Clinton uses the word "speeded"

Clinton used the word "speeded" when talking about how the campaign "will be" in the next couple of months. Isn't "speeded" a pst tense form of the word "speed?" —This comment was unsigned.

Yes, past tense and past participle. American adults only use it for speed's transitive sense ("We speeded it up", "It was speeded up"), and even then it's only questionably standard; our entry suggests that the British might use it more freely. —RuakhTALK 21:56, 3 November 2007 (UTC)
Definitely not in my experience. It’s sped that’s used in all cases (bar by the ridiculed ineducated).  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh, come to think of it, “he was speeded to his destination” is standard…  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:16, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm.... Seems that sped is used when the subject is acting intransitively ("The car sped up", "He sped home"), but that speeded is often used when the subject is acting transitively on another object ("We speeded up the process"), and regularly used when the subject is passive ("He was speeded to his destination"). Not, of course, that use is universally divided for transitive/intransitive (as Dorem. points out). --EncycloPetey 14:15, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

Halacha

60+ cites of "Halachas" as plural on b.g.c. Don't know how to do transliteration to compare the transliterated Hebrew plural, DCDuring 01:52, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I don’t know what you mean when you talk of transliteration. Note these other statistics:
  1. 654 Google Book Search hits for halachot;
  2. 642 GBS hits for halachoth; and,
  3. 407 GBS hits for halachos.
The plural forms already given are far more common than halachas.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 23:14, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Good guess!!! That's what I wanted to know. DCDuring 23:17, 4 November 2007 (UTC)
Ruakh would be the one to ask really, but I’ve noticed that this class of Hebrew words have singular forms ending in -a and/or -ah and plural forms ending in -ot and/or -oth — whence your -os -terminal form came is unknown to me. BTW, are you sure that the ‘+s’ plural can be considered standard?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:25, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
I'd say that -oth, -ot, -os, and -s are all acceptable. (-os reflects the Ashkenazim's traditional pronunciation, something like /ɔs/ or /əs/, which many still use, and which is also — no coincidence — the Yiddish pronunciation. Indeed, this word — like many en:Hebrew derivations — can equally be considered an en:Yiddish derivation.) —RuakhTALK 03:02, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

Caps?—msh210 21:04, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Cheerios

Shouldn't the entry be capitalized as Cheerios? That is how it seems to appear in the hundreds of fiction b.g.c. hits. DCDuring 21:23, 4 November 2007 (UTC)

I moved it. A bot had moved it in 2005, presumably without checking usage frequency. Can it be protected from bot capitalization changes, if the capitalization is agreed as appropriate ? DCDuring 18:05, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. And, not to worry: that was a single-run bot. (Previously Wiktionary was like Wikipedia, in that article titles automatically started with capital letters. When this was changed to allow lowercase entry titles, that bot moved all existing entries to their lowercase forms.) —RuakhTALK 18:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)
Since it was all visible, I didn't think I'd attract too much hostility. Visible one-entry boldness shouldn't be bad for Wiktionary. DCDuring 20:51, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added the New Zealand definition (a cocktail sausage), with a reference. Just to confuse New Zealanders, the cereal was introduced there in 2006 58.28.159.85 03:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Bardolino

1st sense is the town (proper noun); 2nd sense is the wine variety, now shown as a noun and uses "en-noun" The only visible difference in the entry is the display of the (red) plural. Of course, the putatively unique town called "Bardolino" might turn out not to be unique or a philosopher wishing to use Bardolino to illustrate the problems of the concept of uniqueness might wonder how to make its plural. But seriously, folks, isn't Bardolino in the wine sense a proper noun? Many proper names have plural forms. (Is that "Clancys" or "Clancies"?) Why mess up PoS to show plurals? DCDuring 23:12, 5 November 2007 (UTC)

The names of wines are a parennial problem. SemperBlotto could tell tyou about his many researches, and others here have done investigating as well. They do not function as proper nouns, so you can say "I tasted three different Chardonnays.". Oddly some wine names are occasionally capitalized, but this does not seem to be consistent. So, I would say the wine name is not a proper noun and a plural is possible.
As for the town name, it is a proper noun. Yes, it's true that many English proper nouns can be used in a plural form in unusual circumstances, those are usually statements where the referent is not to a specific entity, so it isn't really being used as a proper noun. If you talk about "All the Parises of the world." then you are not referring to a specific location, so you are not using Paris as a proper noun. This is possible for most proper nouns in English, but is a highly unusual construction, and not a normal part of the grammar of proper nouns as proper nouns. --EncycloPetey 00:12, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
When I taught, I needed to keep track of how many Johns and Sergeis I had in the class to make sure that I didn't call on one for something and get an answer from the other. In Wikipedia, DAB pages are often about multiple instances of things with the same proper names. It doesn't seem all that exceptional to me. It is an old exercise in US geography to name all the states that have Springfields. When doing Wiktionary work, I have to check both my Websters (Merriam-Websters (Collegiate and 3rd unabridged)) and both of my Fowlers. And let's not get started on my library, e.g., with a couple of Principles of Psychologys and Getting Things Dones. DCDuring 00:54, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Can I rely on Wiktionary's definition of "proper noun"? "The name of a particular person, place, organization or other individual entity; it is normally written with an initial capital letter". If so, the entry for "Smith" is wrong because it says "Smith" is a proper noun, but refers to not to a specific Smith, but to all members the class of all persons with the name Smith. In any event, "Smith" case has parallels to the case situation of "Bardolino", the wine. It doesn't seem like there is a clear bright line between a proper noun, defined as (possibly non-unique) identifiers of unique individuals, and "capitalized-nouns-which-are-not-proper-nouns". DCDuring 01:13, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Please wait for me to finish the Appendix on English Proper nouns. You can see the very crude draft here, but it needs lots of work before it's complete. I may work on it over Thanksgiving or Christmas holiday. I don't want to have to rewrite all of this each time the question arises, which it has been doing with some regularity of late.
Smith is a proper noun because it usually is used in a way that refers to a particular person named "Smith". When someone says "Have you seen Smith?" they are not referring to all members of the class of persons with the name Smith. The part of speech is dependent on usage, not on abstractions. Yes, the line between common and proper noun is fuzzy as times. Suffice it to say the best discussions of what makes a noun "proper" are by Locke and John Stuart Mill, and they were more concerned with the underlying concept the specifics and practicalities. --EncycloPetey 02:33, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I will certainly wait for you with bated breath, but unfortunately I'm like a dog with a bone with a subject like this.
It seems as if you are saying that the words we lable in Wiktionary as "proper nouns" are not, in fact, in and of themselves "proper nouns". E.g., "Milton" does not uniquely identify any unique person, but is used principally to identify persons, whom we specifically treat as unique. By this emerging definition of proper noun, the Properness of a noun is ultimately connected to instances of use. Is "Wiktionary properness" ("WikP") something with quantitative empirical criteria? Probably not. It is more likely that we will be identifying and formalizing the social conventions that say that require that every Tom, Dick and Harry, pets, human assemblages, and places of human importance be granted eligibility for proper nouns, whereas IP addresses; street addresses; non-pet animals, trees, and rocks (except very big ones) are not. Planets, stars, comets, galaxies yes? Certain periods of time. Trademarks. There would seem to be at least two kinds of proper names in Wiktionary:
  • Type 1: names that, practically speaking, uniquely identify in the speech of some group of humans unique objects deemed worthy of having a proper name: the "Foreign Minister", "Jimbo Wales", the Pentagon, Sol, Sadie Hawkins' Day, "Spot", Halley's Comet.
  • Type 2: words nearly exclusively used to constitute names of the first type. Sadie, Jimbo, Hawkins, Wales; but not day, spot, comet, pentagon, foreign, minister. This would boil down to given names and surnames (and corresponding entities in other naming systems).
Type 1 might not warrant including plurals. But Type 2 would. That they are used in multiple instances to make up names would certainly require the ability to make plural forms of "Henry", "Clancy", "Jimbo", "Hawkins". DCDuring 03:53, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
The Cambridge Grammar of the English Language makes a big to do about this distinction, in a way that most sane people never bother with and which we don't worry about here on Wiktionary. They call individual proper elements "proper nouns" and the labels (either of one word or more) that name a specific item "proper names". But we don't make that distinction here. --EncycloPetey 05:44, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I have put up another version of the page that treats "Bardolino" as if it were a proper name like a trademark, many of which have plurals. This requires using "en-noun" under the "Proper noun" heading, manually inserting the "English proper nouns" category, and labelling the senses as countable and countable, as appropriate. It seems barbaric in appearance and likely to complicate bot design and operations. Another approach would have two "Proper noun" headers, one with "en-noun", the other with "en-proper". Also, we could deem all trademarks and trademark-like names to be nouns, not proper nouns. Or we could allow the proper name template to have plurals, defaulting to non-plural, of course, and not displaying "uncountable". DCDuring 04:16, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Actually, {{en-proper noun}} will work for that as well; it accepts plural and uncountable markers. However, did you notice that the page we're discussing is marked Italian? It should have an Italian inflectional template, category, and should follow Italian plural forms. --EncycloPetey 05:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. I hadn't noticed, probably because it didn't have all the usual accoutrements of a non-English entry. And thank you for the info on the options of the proper noun template. DCDuring 15:40, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I have split this into English and Italian sections - the Italian plural is shown in the De Mauro dictionary. I am concerned that it uses lowercase though (may just be their typographical convention). I take the English plural to mean either different versions of the wine, or more than one glass of it. SemperBlotto 08:28, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
I have read a little and realize more about the issues having to do with proper nouns. I would hazard a guess that many would-be contributors to Wiktionary are as uninformed as I was about the true def. of proper noun and with the same misplaced confidence in their ignorance. There are many Beer Parlor issues in this. DCDuring 15:52, 6 November 2007 (UTC)
Indeed. The various proper noun discussions we had last summer were the impetus behind my researching and drafting the (forthcoming) Appendix on English proper nouns. --EncycloPetey 03:36, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

hoi palloi

Is this an alternative spelling of the far more common hoi polloi (GBS: hoi polloi–hoi palloi = 835:11), or is it just a fairly uncommon (but just about verifiable) misspelling? As what (if anything) is it listed in other dictionaries?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 13:18, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, this is primarily a typo/misspelling and not a valid spelling. It certainly doesn't make sense as a transliteration from Greek. I've not seen it listed in any other dictionary. --EncycloPetey 03:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
OK. Shall we list it as a {{rare}} {{misspelling of|hoi polloi}} or just delete it?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 03:37, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
(If we do the former, we’ll have to do something clever with the template to omit the “common” part of it.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 03:39, 7 November 2007 (UTC))

countercounterpoint

Here's a neat word I recently ran into. countercounterpoint. It has three hits at bgc, all from the same document it looks like. And 22 hits at usenet. So it could scrape past requirements for inclusion. I dunno though, I don't think it's very common in practice. Who here has heard/used this interesting word in their everyday lives? It's a cool word and whether or not we include it today, I'll definitely keep an eye on it since it could be useful. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Language Lover (talkcontribs) 22:41, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

I would try "counter-counterpoint". There are a few Google Books hits. DCDuring 00:33, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

If you don’t think it’ll satisfy the CFI, you can add all the citations you can find to Citations:countercounterpoint; if more are found in future, an entry with a definition can then be created.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:08, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
BTW, wiktionary has "counter-" (with the hyphen, as prefix) and "counterpoint". DCDuring 17:07, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

"Rebrebate" is it a word an if so, what does it mean?

"reprebate" is a word that i've heard a few times used to describe someones character. Was wondering what the true meaning of it is. Or is it just a slang word? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 99.246.11.122 (talkcontribs) 23:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

rebrobate or reprobate ? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by DCDuring (talkcontribs) 23:43, 6 November 2007 (UTC)


--The actual word used much for describing character is reprobate not reprebate. Usually people use this word for the person who is of no worth,generally.--Etymologist 13:52, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

Rebrobate is another old term, used in Christian religious contexts, apparently with about the same meaning as reprobate, appeared in print while reprobate was also in use. "Rebrebate" could easily have been a scanno for rebrobate. DCDuring 15:39, 8 November 2007 (UTC)

cinematography question

What do you call the mark placed on a film near the end of a reel that flashes on the screen to tell the projectionist to switch reels? In Italian it is segnalatore di passaggio. SemperBlotto 14:31, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

A cue mark. —RuakhTALK 20:21, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. SemperBlotto 22:32, 7 November 2007 (UTC)
According to the movie "Fight Club it is know in the film industry as a "cigarette burn", which may have some currency if you wanted to look into it. - [The]DaveRoss 22:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
And according to en:wp's article on cue marks, the term "cigarette burn" was invented for said movie. \Mike 22:32, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

creations

It looks like a bit of bot gone astray on a template. I tried to fix it but was unsuccessful. Makearney 22:12, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

dinna

Would dinna be classed as Scots or English? --Keene 01:15, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

It's marked as "Geordie", which is regarded as a dialect of English. However, it might also exist in Scots. --EncycloPetey 03:30, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Sadly for lexicographers, the dialect boundary does not equate to the border between England and Scotland. Many (most?) Scots words are also found in Northern English dialects, especially Geordie which has held on to a lot of unqiue bits of vocab etc. Widsith 07:53, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

climb

There are other past and past participles of "climb" in dialectical use, but it's hard to know which ones should be included and with what comments. A google search brings up hits for clim, clom, clum, clombed, clumbed, clambed, clomb, clumb, clamb, and climb. I don't know which of these are misspellings, or get enough hits to count as "real" uses. Any comments?

I don't know about the others, but I understand that the ordinary past tense used to be clomb. RSvK 14:16, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
Are they all from modern w:English? Post c. 1500, I think. Middle English is also fine, but sep L2 header. I think that they all could be in Usage notes for "climb" until the research is done. The search engine would find them at least once they were indexed. Normal CFI applies, but the "well-known work" rule might help speed things up. DCDuring TALK 17:34, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

boiloff

what does "boiloff" mean? (in "liquid oxygen" article)

quote from "liquid oxygen" article:

"LOX was also used in some early ICBMs, although more modern ICBMs do not use LOX because its cryogenic properties and need for regular replenishment to replace BOILOFF make it harder to maintain and launch quickly."

boiloff = boil off = evaporation DCDuring 10:10, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

found it it's in "vacuum flask" article quote:

"the leakage of heat into the extremely cold interior of the bottle results in a slow "boiling-off" of the liquid"

Thanks for asking. Missing word. DCDuring 10:18, 9 November 2007 (UTC)

you-know-who

"You-know-who" has singular the same as plural. The entry gives two senses, one for the singular, one for the plural, that formerly were almost exactly parallel and are now exactly parallel, with pari passu adjustments for number. I found that I felt compelled to read both carefully to understand why two senses were being given. Is it really necessary to have two senses, either to:

  • draw the reader's attention to the identical spelling of singular and plural or
  • simplify the wording of the definition? DCDuring 15:48, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
No. Widsith 15:49, 9 November 2007 (UTC)
Shouldn't it be "You-know-whom"? Alan162 19:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
We're not prescriptive. I'm sure you could find grammarians who could make an argument for the appropriateness of this form. It is used in all kinds of writings (except perhaps the most formal ones). A search of Google books shows it is a common usage, much more than "you-know-whom".
If we were talking about the collocated words "you know who" and "you know whom", it would depend on how they were being used in a sentence. The "who"/"whom" might be taking its case from its role in a following clause.
  • "Do you know who that was?"
  • "Do you know whom you were talking to?"
Because English speakers have so little need for case distinctions, the "you-know-who" phrase seems to have simply taken the most common form and used the whole as a noun that has no case ending. DCDuring TALK 21:09, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

stiff

The two senses seem identical to me, and I was going to merge them but they appear to have different translations in Kurdish. Am I missing something? Widsith 09:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

No idea about Kurdish, but there are two definitions that need to be entered more clearly. 1) unbendable applied to a thing 2) inflexible applied to a person. Translators will just have to sort it out later. Algrif 13:36, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
I took a stab at 3 senses for the adjective. I also noted that there are RfVs for two verb senses, which I began to verify, but noted no discussion heading. I'm not sure that all three senses don't come down to "cheated of money". There may also missing senses: one relating to "breaking an appointment or similar social obligation" and another like "stonewall", but of broader application than just with respect to answering a question. Another possible sense is something like punch or, more specificly, cold cock. DCDuring 15:28, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Nice. I added another adj sense. There is also "stiff drink" which seems to be an idiomatic collocation of its own. Widsith 15:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
Doh! Forgot that sense. Not much of a drinker, myself. DCDuring 17:03, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
And I've added "stiff muscles". - Algrif 16:36, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

les dim up

French speakers! Came across this one in a book recently . . . was completely new to me. I think I worked out the meaning OK.. But is there any other word for these, or would you just use this proprietary name, which is what it seems to be? Widsith 19:17, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

I'm not a "French speaker" any more than you are — and I'm not even good with the English terms for such things — but searching Google for explicit explanations of what they are (trying things like "dim up ce" and so on), it seems that there's no other general name for these; rather, people use "les dim up" as a generic name, and when pressed to explain it use full sentences. Personally, I think autocollant (sticker) would have been cleverer (collant being “tights”), but what can you do? :-P   Incidentally, it might be worth linking to w:fr:Dim (lingerie), which is a fr.wiki article on the company that introduced them. —RuakhTALK 21:40, 10 November 2007 (UTC)
OK, well I'm still pleased - I always wondered how to say this in French. Not that I get the chance very often, but it's nice to think one'll be prepared. Widsith 21:43, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

let freedom ring

As what PoS should a phrase like this be presented. It IS a phrase, but it is a verbal phrase, following the inflection of let. "Freedom" is not inflected. What is the role of the Phrasebook in this? My own preference would be to present it as a Verb, use the idiom template, categorize it as a verb, but NOT have all of the inflections appear. That means NOT using the en-verb template. I can't find a policy on this. Has it been discussed? DCDuring 23:31, 10 November 2007 (UTC)

Personally, I think {{en-verb}} should have a nolinks=1 parameter or something; the inflections would then still appear, but they wouldn't be links. We can use it for idioms like this, where links wouldn't be helpful because the linked pages should just be redirects to the main entry. —RuakhTALK 00:28, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
You're saying they should appear without the inflected forms having links, but presumable with "inf=let freedom ring". Why couldn't those links be automatic? DCDuring 01:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm sorry, I don't understand your question. :-/ —RuakhTALK 01:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I don't know that inflected forms of this have any currency, though. Isn't this more of a fixed, set-phrase? --Connel MacKenzie 01:12, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
This phrase may become passe, apearing only in historical works by conservative writers harkening back to the old days when Reagan "let freedom ring" (past), if they can't talk about how some future Repubican president is "letting freedom ring" can (present participle). Whether it is worth displaying them is a separate question, but they can be readily exemplified and perhaps verified (at least if you don't make me find three for each form). DCDuring 01:40, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, good point … properly speaking, I guess it's actually a full clause, in the imperative mood but not intended as a true imperative; it has the same structure as "let's talk" or "let me ask around", where you're not really instructing the listener to "let" something. (I think this sort of meaning is properly called "jussive" or something like that, though I've also heard it described as a "third-person imperative".) I don't know what part of speech that would be under our system; an idiom or interjection, I guess. That said, google books:"(lets OR letting) freedom ring" gets 21 hits, and google books:"(have OR having) let freedom ring" gets seven, so the entry might warrant a genuine verb sense that formed by extension. Regardless, my suggestion about {{en-verb}} was not intended just for this entry, but for many other such. I mean, does "given up" really need its own entry just because we have give up? —RuakhTALK 01:53, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
I would fully support that intiative. As you know, I add a lot of phrasal verbs and idiomatic verbal phrases. At the moment I am obliged to put the individual words in brackets and add category:English verbs at the end. Not very satisfactory. nolinks=1 would be a great solution. As for the original question; I would opt for Phrase: let freedom ring. Any future searcher checking for letting freedom ring would, as a normal course, search the infinitive phrase anyway. Algrif 14:16, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
The recommendation to make the PoS = "Phrase" leaves the user to wonder whether the phrase is inflected as well as how. I've changed my mind about NOT having the inflections appear. I still don't like all the red links and having to type all of the inflected forms in. DCDuring 19:25, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Besides having all those (long) red-links, there is another problem with that technique: you might end up inventing unused variations. --Connel MacKenzie 20:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC) you also would be giving undue weight to some very rare forms. --Connel MacKenzie 20:06, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Not at all. If each separate word is bracketted, it links directly to the base page showing all the inflections. A long phrase or idiom or proverb (whatever you prefer) would only bracket the important words. That's what I was taught when I started working here, anyway. And it still makes good sense to me IMHO ;-) Algrif 12:28, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure how you got that impression - that is the Wikipedia convention (AFAIK,) but on Wiktionary, all the component words are supposed to be wikified. --Connel MacKenzie 20:03, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
No prob. I just checked damned if you do and damned if you don't and see that all the words are wikified even though repeated. I understood that words like conjunctions and prepositions didn't need to be wikified in long phrases. There are many entries that do not follow this convention. I'll change them whenever I see them. Algrif 13:53, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
There is a problem with highlighting each component and expecting the phrasal inflection to be inferrable from that. To wit, only one word in a phrase like "let freedom ring" can be inflected while retaining the meaning given. "Freedom" can't be plural and "ring" isn't inflected either (although for a more grammatical reason). I think we are trying to get more out of the wikilinks than they can unambiguously communicate. DCDuring 15:15, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
letting freedoms ring gets 8 google hits... all to the same source. But it can be found with both let and freedom inflected.
Connel's points above are over-riding "all those (long) red-links" and "inventing unused variations." It is why I asked for guidance on this when I started. Firstly, someone looking the phrase up might well need to know what a component word means. Secondly, they might need to know how to inflect it, even if it is only to "inventing unused variation" for creative purposes. Algrif 15:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I got 2 blog hits for "let freedoms ring", too. We will always have creative extension of the language, but a dictionary is not primarily a guide for poets and bloggers trying to attract hits. WT documents the standard language; they play around with it. What I would think we would want is to point users to the main inflection explcitly and allow the wikilinks to be a kind of first-cut etymology and analysis tool, which supports creative writing and other uses. DCDuring 16:05, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Right - the convention on en.wikt is to send people to the component word pages for inflections. That practice doesn't jive well with other conventions that advocate duplication. It also is not followed (probably 20% of the time - presumably with good reason, for individual exceptions) all of the time. While I agree it is better to not list out inflections of set-phrases, some idioms might require proper inflection. I think that was the original question about this term - which I still do not know how to answer. Comparative web-hits show the standard form to have an overwhelming lead - perhaps it should just be left alone? --Connel MacKenzie 07:24, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I knew I had it somewhere. From your good self on my talk page, I quote: Please don't use full inflection for verb phrases. For all multi-word entries, the component terms only are supposed to have inflection. Please take a look at how I split jack it in from jack in. Thanks for your neat contributions! --Connel MacKenzie 17:35, 17 July 2007 (UTC) -- ;-) -- Algrif 15:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
So, not too bad to keep specific inflection for this one because "freedom" is rarely inflected. If it were never inflected, it might be a more clear-cut case.
To summarize the more general case, to avoid unrewarding proliferation of phrasal entries, the idea would be to refer the user to the component words for inflection, by making sure that we were using the "inf=", "pos=", and "sg=" template options. Exceptions would be allowed where there was a good reason, such as not all possible inflections being legitimate (or to allow a link to a particularly common participle form ?). This is not a policy or a guideline, but might eventually become one. Is that a good summary? DCDuring 16:27, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

warna

Hi. I joined Wiktionary about a month back with the intention of beefing up the Malay vocabulary here. At the time, colour was one of the Translations of the Week, so I thought that I would start there. I have finally managed to put together an article for User:Nestum82/warna at my User Page, and I was wondering if I could get some feedback before appending it to warna. Nestum82 10:21, 11 November 2007 (UTC)

Looks great! One minor thing, the English word varna is not a cognate - it hasn't descended from Sanskrit in the same way but was borrowed wholesale into the language. You need to say something like compare English varna. Widsith 10:38, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the warning! Gawd. I was under the impression that any two words with a common ancestor could be considered cognates. D'oh! Am I right in assuming that the compare English varna goes under the Etymology header?
Another thing that I should probably draw attention to is the Pronounciations. AFAIK, the major dictionaries do not give IPA pronounciations. Kamus Dewan only goes as far as using an é to differentiate IPA(No language code specified.): /e/ from IPA(No language code specified.): /ɘ/. So the pronounciations that I have given are both based on what comes out of my own mouth. Does this fall under original research? (Actually, I should put this question in the Talk Page. I've already got one lengthy postscript in there.) Nestum82 19:19, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Please, feel free to give your own pronunciations. Heck, we have a guideline or policy page somewhere that tells people they can write things like "KON-takt" if they don't know any formal transcription system. So, home-rolled IPA is really A-OK. :-) —RuakhTALK 22:44, 11 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for all the pointers. I've finally gotten round to tacking the entry on to warna.
Ruakh: Now that you mention it, it does say that more or less in the ELE. Can't believe I forgot about that. Nestum82 17:37, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

the hungarian christian name : Ibolya

I think this means Violet in english. Would anybody be able to confirm that ? thanks

john

Well yes and no. There is a Hungarian word ibolya that does mean violet (both the flower and the color), and there is a Hungarian masculine feminine name Ibolya that apparently derives from the name of the flower. However, it would be misleading to say that the feminine name means "violet", just as it would be misleading to say that the English girl's name Heather means "a low growing plant in the Ericaceae". They both share a spelling and an etymological origin, but not a current meaning. --EncycloPetey 04:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)
Ibolya is definitely a feminine given name. But Viola and Violetta are also Hungarian names, so you cannot talk about translations, rather about variants of a theme.--Makaokalani 11:01, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I have rechecked my book on Hungarian names; thanks for the correction. --EncycloPetey 17:14, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

pwn

I have a feeling the current definitions don’t accurately cover the usage found in this hilarious comic: http://xkcd.com/341/. Could a native speaker add a definition, and maybe the quote? H. (talk) 16:00, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

It seems to me that it is a usage of the "defeat" sense, "You just got defeated pretty thoroughly, maybe you should sit down" might be a rephrasing. - [The]DaveRoss 21:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Template:fr-conj-er

Looking in Template:fr-conj-er, I've noticed the "surcomposed past" been put in. Do other publications call it the surcomposed past? In French it's known as the passé fr:surcomposé, and is rarely used. As a holder of a degree in French, I've been made aware of it, but the teachers generally told me never to use it, as it's a kind of dialectic thing. Is it worth it being included in Template:fr-conj-er? Or is it too obscure? I suppose there's no harm in having it. Still, an entry for surcomposed could be needed. --Haunted wigwam 12:33, 13 November 2007 (UTC) (Yes, is blatantly Wonderfool, am leaving this account after this comment)

(1) I don't think there is a standard English name for it; Google Books suggests that most English texts just stick to the French name, but I don't think we can consider surcomposé to be a real loanword into English. (2) I don't think the surcomposé is a "dialectic" thing; my impression is that it's just an odd blend of literary French (where a distinction is drawn between the passé antérieur and the plus-que-parfait) and non-literary French (where the passé simple is systematically replaced with the passé composé). In true literary French you'd say « dès qu'il eut fait […] », and in normal French you'd say « dès qu'il avait fait […] », but in surcomposé-accepting French you'd say « dès qu'il a eu fait […] » (all meaning "once he'd done […]"). —RuakhTALK 17:56, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
My Collins-Robert French Dictionary translates surcomposé as "double-compound", though I don't know whether anyone uses that in grammatical contexts. --EncycloPetey 18:42, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I hadn't heard that before, but searching b.g.c., it looks like that is indeed the most popular name (at least of those I knew to look for). —RuakhTALK 19:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
I have to say, I've lived in France and in Morocco, and I don't think I've ever seen the surcomposé used in real life! Widsith 09:19, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

Responsible to or responsible for?

I run into what I believe to be the misuse of the word responsible fairly frequently when reviewing Standard Operating Procedures. Each SOP has a section that specifies who is accountable for performing the procedure. I frequently see something like "The Manager of Customer Service is responsible to initiate customer complaint..." and it doesn't seem right. Is this correct? Should this not be "... is responsible for initiating customer..."? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by MTLer (talkcontribs) 15:04, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

You are correct. One is responsible for carrying out a duty. I often hear responsible to used in the same sense as accountable to and answerable to.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 15:13, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
While "is responsible to initiate" is stilted, I'd not say it's wrong. Parse it as "is responsible" + "to initiate" (not as ... + "responsible to" + ...), and it has in the end the same meaning as "is responsible for initiating". As I say, though, it is stilted.—msh210 15:38, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
As usual, there is no Academy of English. But normal usage is: Responsible for a duty / department / etc.; and responsible to the head of dept. or similar person or dept above you (although you can be responsible to your clients, etc, also). Algrif 15:44, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
If we talk about the standard English ,then "responsible for" is the correct use,if we look for the preposition usage.In various countries where English is taught as subject, usage of responsible with 'to' is usually considered as common error or gramatically wrong.However, I think this flexibility to use 'responsible to' instead of 'responsibility for' is making its place in nowadays English speakers.--Etymologist 17:45, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
'responsible to + gerund' seems to find frequent use in non-American newspapers, judging from Google News. —This unsigned comment was added by 68.180.45.200 (talk) at 00:23, 14 November 2007 (UTC).

comparative of polite

Is the comparative of polite politer or more polite, (or both)? RJFJR 21:27, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

Google Books supports both, with some preference for the latter. I, however, am less tolerant: "politer" sounds incredibly wrong to me. :-P   —RuakhTALK 22:08, 13 November 2007 (UTC)
Sums up my opinion rather well. Currently polite lists 'more polite' but I find politer in my paper dictionary. I'm going to change it, but it sounds like it needs a usage note on how it sounds wrong to some people. Any suggestions on wording? RJFJR 02:47, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
What my experience tells as i have gone through many English writings ,both forms are supported.In daily use i've seen people talking as ,"She should say this in politer way."So i think you need not to change it.Rather politer and superlative degree being politest sounds better than 'more polite' and 'most polite'.But what standard English suggests ,i am bit doubtful about it ,not really ,but to some extent.--Etymologist 13:08, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Politer and politest both both [sic] sound and look wrong to me (the comparative form more so than the superlative form); however, since they both exist, they ought to be listed, with a usage note added to the entry fo polite and links pointing thither added to the entries for politer and politest.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 14:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
As a native speaker of American English (midwest), I see nothing wrong with politer or politest; I use both myself. —This unsigned comment was added by 68.180.45.200 (talk) at 23:45, 14 November 2007 (UTC).
RJFJR, FYI: the {en-adj} template handles this case, see entry. I concur in thinking "more polite" and "most polite" look and sound much more familiar than "politer" and "politest", which both look odd ;-) Robert Ullmann 14:44, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanx. I've also updated bitter - Algrif 13:50, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I read in grammars for foreign students of English that the use of -er in comparative adjectives is only valid in monosyllabic words, with the exception of those ending in -y, which form with -ier.

You won't go wrong the positive part of the rule. You can always make a good comparative with a polysyllabic adjective with "more". The prohibititive part of the recommendation would keep you from saying "yellower", for example. DCDuring TALK 23:56, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

How much is it

I was thinking this should be moved to how much is it, due to caps. If anyone disagrees, please let me know; if I don't hear otherwise I will go ahead and move it. sewnmouthsecret 21:54, 13 November 2007 (UTC)

set versus put

Possibly stupid question (I blame my non-nativity), but: when you place something somewhere, is there any difference between "setting" it there, and "putting" it there? \Mike 11:02, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

None whatsoever. You can put, put it down, place, set, set it down, there. As you wish. Algrif 13:43, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Although. To my ear set seems of a slightly more formal register. There is also often a connotation of placing something more deliberately in a specific place, which is more obvious in phrases like "the diamond was set in precious stones" or something like that. I think put is slightly more neutral, slightly more casual. Widsith 13:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, i strongly agree with 'widsith' explanation.To put,just mean to just put something orderly or un-arranged but when we talk about ,'setting it',this reflects a sense of arrangement or order.And secondly,not think your questions stupid,just ask and remove your ambiguity related to any word.--Etymologist 14:48, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Definitely not stupid. Answering these questions forces native speakers to be explicit about rules they may well have no conscious awareness of. Sometimes when we try to state the rules that we actually follow flawlessly, we make mistakes in trying to articulate them. I certainly use "set" only in contexts where the "putting" is supposed to be more careful in relationship to other objects. In more abstract applications, compare "putting that behind you" to "setting that aside for the moment". Perhaps the second is more specific, setting something aside for use in a short time, rather than forgetting it entirely. DCDuring 15:31, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks for the help - most dictionaries I've seen (English that is) simply explain "set" (in this sense) with "put" (more or less) and vice versa. And then I compare to Swedish which uses three different verbs for that notion, and they are only rarely interchangeable... :P (Yes, I had hoped there were some minor difference I could benefit from when trying to define the words lägga, sätta and ställa, respectively, a bit more clearly - in how they differ). \Mike 19:51, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
  • The word "lay" physically means placing or setting a longish object on a flat surface or in a containing space. Is that like lägga?
  • To "stand" something physically means to place or set an object in an upright or erect position. Is that like ställa?
Sometimes the physical meanings provide a good place to start. I don't know that I've gotten the English exactly right, but you can check me. DCDuring 20:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Yes, the physical orientation constitutes a very good first approximation :) But then there is sätta (literally, to put in a sitting position) which confuses things, sometimes synonymous with "lägga", sometimes with "ställa" and sometimes the only option. Hmm...., I think I was too concentrated on which nouns to use with which verb, there... I think it should be possible to get something decent out of it (at least I think I've managed to include most variations of lägga by now). But thanks for your help! :) \Mike 21:04, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
Hmm, no, it is never(?) quite synonymous with lägga, at least.... just need to make a fine cut to separate them ;) \M

help yourself

Should this be listed under help#Verb, meaning 1? It seems to me to be slightly different- but I can't pinpoint why. Conrad.Irwin 22:12, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

I also find that reflexives(?) like this give me pause, even though the definitions do seem to include them. It's even worse that it is easy to focus on the imperative form. Unfortunately the WT solution would probably be "help oneself", which would not be likely to be found by an ordinary user groping for help. DCDuring 22:26, 14 November 2007 (UTC)
I think help oneself would be a correct entry. But also help yourself as a phrase book entry. Algrif 11:37, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

What I meant to ask was, is this a correct usage of the first meaning of help - or is it completely different? Conrad.Irwin 16:52, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

The first entry is really in the sense God helps those who help themselves. I think help yourself to some food is not the sense nº1. IMHO. Algrif 20:25, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

incomparable

"Incomparable" is shown in our entry as having no comparative form.

  • Oscar Wilde, Collected Works of Oscar Wilde (1997), page 1096
    I know of nothing in all drama more incomparable from the point of view of art, nothing more suggestive in its subtlety of observation, than Shakespeare's […].

Was Oscar Wilde jesting or are we wrong? DCDuring 23:54, 14 November 2007 (UTC)

On the face of it I see no reason why there can't be gradations of comparability... Widsith 09:31, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
Our editors seem to suffer from lapses of imagination with respect to countability for nouns and comparability for adjectives and adverbs. I understand how easy it is to succumb to it, but it leaves a lot of cleanup. DCDuring 10:13, 15 November 2007 (UTC)
The editors do not suffer from lapses of imagination; we are describing the norm in the inflection lines rather than the exceptions (which are many in English). Please apologize for this personal attack. --EncycloPetey 04:02, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
It is perhaps not so much lack of imagination, but a long-cherished superstition within prescriptive grammar of the "absolute adjectives" that cannot be compared. It is a long-settled issue in linguistics that a form like "more incomparable" means "being closer to incomparable" or "having more of the quality of incomparable", but the prescriptionists continue to claim this is somehow imprecise, unclear, or illiterate. —This comment was unsigned.
Not simply superstition, but an understanding of what the words mean. The word incomparable means "not comparable"; it can't be compared. The word not is a binary operator. It isn't logically feasible to say that something is "more not comparable" or "most not comparable", just as it isn't logically feasible to say that something is "more dead", "more frozen", or "more omnipotent". Each of the base terms is binary, without gradations. That doesn't mean that such forms aren't used by people, just that they do not make logical sense. --EncycloPetey 03:58, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
One could argue that that's a superstitious application of logical formalisms to an informal and illogical language. Two things can be roughly comparable — apples and oranges, say — or fairly incomparable — oranges and toothbrushes, say. But oranges and love are even more incomparable than these, because you can't even apply market prices to compare them. Technically, any two things can be compared, and when we say "incomparable", we do not in fact mean that comparison is simply impossible. Likewise, "more omnipotent" can be meaningful in discussing solutions to the Omnipotence paradox. That said, I agree with you that it's not a big deal to label an adjective absolute if its comparative and superlative forms are rare and nonce-y. —RuakhTALK 04:32, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I have taken to checking for the actual occurences of instances of use of comparable forms before changing indications of non-comparability. That's what lead me to the Oscar Wilde quote above. Given his notorious wit, I wanted to check whether I had not gotten a joke he was playing on his readers. I doubt if anyone will use a comparable form of something when it doesn't make sense because we say that an adjective is comparable in one of its senses. The trouble with the incomparability marker is that it applies to all senses (including those added after the non-comparability marker is added) and all contexts. It also seems much more proscriptive than Wiktionary philosophically seems to be. DCDuring 23:50, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Listing an exotic example is one thing, intentionally misleading readers is quite another. Anyhow, for the sense you added, how could something in a literal sense be "more not comparable" anyway? I've been bold, as this was apparently lost in the shuffle. The discussion edits had left it in a terrible state. --Connel MacKenzie 08:22, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It is clear that Wilde's usage, as well as other instances of "more incomparable" and "most incomparable" are using the word simply in a sense of "great to an extent of having no equal". It is a word that grew beyond its roots, and in this sense is no longer a meaningful prefix+root word combination. Discussions of actual "comparisons" (oranges and toothbrushes) is quite erroneous to this sense. It's an adjective borne out of the notion of being matchless, peerless, unrivaled — but is an independent, self-sustaining description, like "magnificent". It connotates comparison, but does not refer directly to it. Casting off any active (verb) sense of comparison, the new, independent, etymologically created word is pronounced in-COMP-arable. For the senses you've been discussing, the better term is "not comparable".
That said, I think listing the comparative and superlative at incomparable is excessive. The truth is that the word lacks a comparative form, thus the necessary use of the word more. Listing such is wholly unnecessary and cluttered. -- Thisis0 21:57, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Would that not apply to all adjectives which form their comparatives with "more"? -- Visviva 12:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Not to those for which the "more, most" comparative is common. That bears mention. But to those where the potential comparative is rare, awkward, nonce-y, controversial, and confusing -- it should be left out of the headword space, at least. -- Thisis0 16:58, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Some quick-and-dirty comparisons on b.g.c. suggest that "incomparable" (238.3) is a great deal less comparable than ordinary adjectives like "outstanding" (75.0), but more comparable than really incomparable adjectives like "impossible" (326.76). The numbers are the number of hits for the headword per hit for "more headword than." Not sure where we intend to draw the line here, and of course we all know that Google's hit counts are fiendishly unreliable, so further research is needed. It would be interesting to learn if any real corpus linguists have developed a workable algorithm to evaluate comparability. (probably not... it doesn't strike me as the sort of question a real corpus linguist would be interested in, unfortunately.) -- Visviva 12:17, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

With the heat of the words exchanged and the lack of non-literary uses shown, it would seem "more incomparable" is somewhat of a nonce term that nonetheless is readily interpreted as "less comparable". "coldness" is not a strictly physical quantity like "heat", yet we find it just as tangible. I think most people would feel the Pyramids of Giza are "more priceless" than an early Picasso sketch and that cycling instructions for fish are more worthless than an 8-track casette player. In mathematics, even infinities/infinitesimals come in different degrees. "-less" is normally such a binary form, but "more priceless" is readily interpreted as "more valuable (worth more)" and "more worthless" is readily interpreted as "less valuable (worth less)". Technically, such terms aren't very logical but they still carry information with intrinsic value. I see no reason, however to list any of these terms , including "more incredible" (which we do have) in definitions because they have much more capacity to confuse than to help. Comparative and superlative forms are usually just there to guide users if or how "-er" & "-est" should be applied in normal use. That's a big reason why we don't include "believabler" or "incredibler".

BTW, if you cross the right pond/continent, I'm sure you'll find different pronunciations for "incomparable" and we should reflect that. --Thecurran 07:25, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

"What a bitter sweet irony of it"

What does it really mean?How many meanings it carries,both in negative and positive sense?Anyone??--Etymologist 18:00, 15 November 2007 (UTC)

comparative of negative terms

When forming the comparative of a negative term (a word formed from a prefix such as un- in- a- etc) it seems to me that while I could put more before the negative I'm more likely to put less before the positive form. e.g. for inappropriate it sounds better to use less appropriate than more inappropriate. Does this seem like a general rule? Should anything be noted in the entry for negative terms? RJFJR 02:44, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me to be a good example of a Usage notes entry. - Algrif 11:33, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
But less appropriate doesn't mean the same thing as more inappropriate. At a black-tie event, a shirt with button cuffs is less appropriate than cufflinks, but still appropriate, not inappropriate. Jeans would be more inappropriate than a business suit, both are inappropriate. Robert Ullmann 11:43, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Very good point, and good examples. Hmmmm... - Algrif 20:17, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Fathometer

We have an entry for the trademark Fathometer and not for fathometer. I haven't counted, but there seem to be more uses of the uncapitalized generic form. How should this be presented? I would argue for both entries cross-referenced, but a redirect from one to the other with both trademark and generic uses could work. If the latter which one is the redirect? DCDuring 15:49, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

We do not use redirects. Use two entries, like Apple. DAVilla 06:41, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I propose that at Fathometer the gloss only reads "A trade mark". We do not know what else Fathometer produces or especially what it will produce, therefore it is not necessary to say anything about what is possibly being produced under the brand. A separate entry fathometer then explains what the gadget is about. I do not know whether fathometers are called fathometers because of Fathometer or vice versa. Without further research I would not write anything about the relationship in the etymology -section. In fact, I did these changes already. Hekaheka 21:12, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Actually we should just delete the trade mark just as at least for the time being is the solution with Bobcat, which is being discussed somewhat further below. Hekaheka 21:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

atop

The adverb was listed as not having a comparative form. I found two quotes that seem to illustrate otherwise, but are otherwise interpretable. Any thoughts. DCDuring 19:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)

Try searching using further and furthest atop. You'll find stacks of quotes. Algrif 20:15, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Does "further" count as making a "real" comparative form. In my mind, only "more" could make a comparative. Are there other such words that make "real" comparatives. DCDuring 21:40, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
And younger is then not a "real" comparative? Better? \Mike 21:47, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
I meant that I thought that "more" was the only full word that could make a comparative.
I was interested in whether there was a comparative form (and a superlative one as well) for the adverb "atop". I found two quotes for "more atop". The suggestion of "further atop" raised the question in my mind as to what the meaning of "comparative" form really was. Is "more" the only adverb that makes a "real" comparative form for those adjectives and adverbs that don't form the comparative "morphologically", like by adding "-er", as "young" does? "Further atop" (surprisingly, no real hits for "farther atop") and "more atop" seem to mean about the same thing.
"Farther" and "further" seem to work like "more" for many adverbs that have to do with spatial relationships, possibly figurative ones. "Farther" "up/down"; "in/out"; "over/under"; "ahead/behind"; "on", "across", "back", "east", etc.; "left/right"; "forward/backward"; "away/anear"; "above/below"; "overhead", "beneath", "alee", "abaft", "afore". DCDuring 22:26, 16 November 2007 (UTC)
Further' does seem to be preferred to farther for comparative forms. No idea why, tho. A tangential aside... I've often thought it might be good to appendix all adj / adv that can take further as comparative. You missed a few. upstairs, downstairs, uphill, downhill, ahead, around, round, and I'm certain there are more. Algrif 16:19, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

There are other words besides more than can be used to form the comparative, especially less. Comparatives can either increase or decrease the relative degree in the comparison. However, I'm not convinced that further atop is an extension of the pattern. This looks to me like a case of the adverb further modifying the adverb atop, just as you could say further in, further on, or further out. I can't find this addressed in the books I have on English grammar. --EncycloPetey 03:49, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

I remain very uncertain about this: "She rested more atop him."

"More" would seem to be modifying the prepositional phrase "atop him". Therefore "atop" is, in fact, not comparable. This leaves me needing some kind of good usage example or quote for the adverbial usage of "atop", which is actually what got me started on all this. DCDuring 04:06, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

In that example atop is a preposition, not an adverb. The adverb more is modifying the adverbial phrase atop him. The original question applies to adverbial situations like "Clicking on this option will place the window further atop." I can't imagine "more atop" being used this way. --EncycloPetey 04:38, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I think I see the error of my ways about the comparative form of the adverb. My question now is for a good example of the adverbial use.
  • "He placed it atop." doesn't seem right, except in very unusual circumstances. Perhaps: "She placed hers next to the pillow; he placed his atop {hers or the pillow]." DCDuring 16:36, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
No, I would call that a preposition still, with an understood implied object because of the parallelism. A better example might be "The scout went atop to look along the cliffs." The adverbial use will sound strange because it's not common in modern English. --EncycloPetey 18:46, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Adverbially it's almost archaic now. In older books, you will regularly see sentences along the lines of, "The castle was black and forbidding, with a tattered flag flying atop." It used to be written as two words which is making it hard for me to find good results on b.google. Widsith 13:33, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Does it merit an indicator of its not-current usage? What is the canonical format for such an indicator? "dated"? "archaic"? "obsolete"? DCDuring 14:41, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Maybe Lua error in Module:labels/templates at line 32: The parameter "lang" is required....? Widsith 16:10, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

I've added a couple of cites and the context tags. Widsith 17:29, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I feel much better now. -- And the entry is vastly better. DCDuring 17:56, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

word of faith

The phrase "word of faith" is fairly common in Christian writings and is apparently SoP, non-idiomatic. There is a "Word of Faith" movement, not an organization, for which the phrase has a particular meaning, which most users of the phrase "word of faith" may not be aware of, would not accept, and might strongly disagree with. The entry, though uncapitalized, is about "Word of Faith" as a belief, presumably of those in the "Word of Faith" movement.

  • Should the entry be capitalized?
  • How should the meanings separate from those of the movement be handled?
  • Should the context be "religion" or "Word of Faith"?
  • Does it belong in Wiktionary?
Although there might well be a BP discussion in this, the concrete case might provide a more focussed discussion, if anyone is interested. DCDuring 00:04, 17 November 2007 (UTC)


pilmanie

does anybody know the correct spelling of a soup called(pilmanie) and its possible origin? 15:21 17 November 2007 (UTC) 75.41.123.55

  • This morning I walked down the street to see what I could see, and happened upon an Uzbekistani restaurant, where I had breakfast.
Couldn't read a single thing on the menu, because it was written in Russian. So I just told the guy to bring me something he thought I'd like.
It was terrific. Something called Pelmani, which included beef dumpling soup, some sort of egg and ham salad, plus bread and yogurt with an interesting tang. An excellent choice next time you stay at the Diplomat Hotel in Dubai.[10] DCDuring 22:33, 17 November 2007 (UTC)
Best spelling for finding more would probably be pelmeni. DCDuring 22:46, 17 November 2007 (UTC)

What is a beehive fireplace?

What is a beehive fireplace?

See picture here.
A traditional beehive is kind of dome shaped (as in beehive hairdo, etc). A beehive fireplace is a masonry or stone dome enclosure over the fire forming a sort of oven. RJFJR 04:29, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

unmade

The entry claims to have a citation supporting "more unmade" as the comparative, but I think this is parsed incorrectly. I believe the quote is not "(more unmade) and remade" but rather "more (unmade and remade)". That is, I think more is being used in its adverbial sense to modify an adjective phrase rather than in its analytical sense to form the comparative. --EncycloPetey 04:08, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

By George, I think you're right. I added a couple of other quotes that seem to support the comparative/superlatives, but I may have misread them too. Please take a look. DCDuring 13:22, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
All but the 1984 quote, which is comparing aunmade versus made, and not forming a comparative of unmade. I'd argue that the original quote from the page and the 1984 one should be removed. --EncycloPetey 15:39, 18 November 2007 (UTC)
I've implemented your suggestions. Formation of plurals and comparatives is way more complicated than I had realized. -- And I still have trouble slowing down enough to parse things correctly. DCDuring 16:20, 18 November 2007 (UTC)

New word or another language

I'm really struggling to find any meaning for the word "Absolom". Is this a new word created by the masters of Hollywood or A word in another minor language they've found and used. —This unsigned comment was added by Pagey (talkcontribs).

See Wikipedia: w:Absalom. Mike Dillon 03:40, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

Random addendum: Robertson Davies used to use his own coinage absalonism to describe habitual rebellion against one's father. Widsith 12:10, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

get down with the kids

Should this instead be at get down with or possibly even get down?—msh210 21:49, 19 November 2007 (UTC)

"get down" doesn't cover it. There's another idiom (AAVE?) down with, I think, too, possibly related. DCDuring 22:53, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
We may need additional sense(s) of down to provide the building block(s) for these phrases. DCDuring 22:59, 19 November 2007 (UTC)
Plenty of examples of get down with + other noun groups being used as a phrasal verb in Google and bgc. This seems to be quite new, as it is not a dictionary entry that I can find (yet), but there appears to be durability. So I vote for get down with as the entry. Algrif 12:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
If you want an entry for it, I'm down with it. DCDuring 12:45, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
If you're happy with my entry at get down with, which seems to have at least two citeable meanings, then that makes get down with the kids SoP. - Algrif 12:55, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm down[=OK] with the entry, but I wish I could think of a good search to capture some quotes using "get down" not in the senses given there, but more like the sense in get down with. Can it be used with any other prepositions? My homeys don't talk like that and the people who do wouldn't talk that way in front of me. DCDuring 14:57, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your Q, but perhaps you want get down among ? - Algrif 16:22, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
What I'm trying to say is that I'm not happy that the two senses in "get down" really capture one or more ways the phrase is used. To get it right I would need to look at a few examples. I can't think how to do a good search that doesn't yield thousands of hits I don't want. If "with" is not the only additional preposition the phrase is used with, then there is a good case for adding an additional sense to "get down". But "get down" without another preposition also may have another sense, for which the one-preposition-at-a-time strategy that you imply would be ineffective. DCDuring 16:44, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah! I thought so. I misunderstood your Q.
I don't do anything sophisticated. Just search and wade through the results. I often find that newspaper searches help to support and clarify gbc searches. Using this method, I came out with the 2 definitions given. There might be more, but I haven't come across any yet.
The definitions at get down with do not coincide with any definition of get down nor get down + with. So I believe get down with is a clear phrasal verb with clear definitions. If you find any more, please feel free to add (It's Wiki policy, after all ;-)) - Algrif 17:35, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

-illo

I was just wondering how best to enter Spanish suffix -illo -illa meaning little. As in mercado - mercadillo, mentira - mentirilla, etc. Is there a specific format for this? Algrif 15:57, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

You could use -ito as an example. It looks pretty solid. Mike Dillon 16:03, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I'm onto it now. Algrif 16:06, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

template:irregular plural of

Template:irregular plural of is a "form-of" template that puts "Irregular plural form of [foo]" on the definition line and adds the page to Category:English irregular plurals. While I think that the category is great, I think the definition line should just say "Plural form of", for the following reason. Someone who doesn't know what "irregular plural" means might well think that "Irregular plural form of" means "Uncommon plural form of" (i.e., that there is another, more common, plural). What think you all?—msh210 19:29, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

Another option is to have "irregular" link to Appendix:Glossary, where it can be explained in detail. If that's not enough, maybe a tooltip could offer a brief explanation. Rod (A. Smith) 19:59, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
Ideally, we'd have an Appendix:English nouns with a section on regular and irregular plurals, and the template would like to that. --EncycloPetey 20:34, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
I like any presentation that is kind to an ordinary user, while remaining accurate. The word "irregular" at the beginning of a definition line has the potential to confuse (especially native speakers). If it would be valuable for some users to know that a given plural is irregular without having to look at the categories, perhaps the definition line could read "plural form (irr.) of". To prevent the ordinary user from wasting too much time "irr." could be wiki-linked to a helpful section of a page that explained what "irregular" meant in this context. Putting a wiki-linked "irregular" at the beginning of the line may lead to many users hitting a link that won't tell them anything they want to know. DCDuring 20:51, 20 November 2007 (UTC)
That sounds good.—msh210 17:41, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with msh210; that message just seems pointless. Anyone who knows English will know, given a plural noun and its corresponding lemma, whether they'd consider it irregular; I don't see the benefit in imposing our definition of "irregular" into our definitions of all irregular plurals. (Obviously we need our own definition of "irregular" for the sake of categorization, but I don't see that it's useful for much more than that.) —RuakhTALK 01:11, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I admit that the current entry for women seems unenlightening for readers who don't already know the plural of woman. Of course, this ties into the lack of consensus we have regarding whether to show such inflection details in the headword/inflection line or in definition lines. In any event, this conversation probably belongs at WT:BP, right? Rod (A. Smith) 01:36, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I agree with both Msh210 and Ruakh: The category is useful, the preset definition is unhelpfully misleading.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 02:38, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I also agree. When you see women defined as "irregular plural of woman", the immediate reaction is to think "So what the hell is the regular plural?" Widsith 12:06, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Shall we change the definition to be identical with the one provided {{plural of}}, but retaining the auto-catting?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 12:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
  • I see a few problems:
    1. Most dictionaries don't include entries for regular "form of"s but do for irregulars. So while they typically don't use the word "irregular" in their definitions they make these terms stand out by their mere inclusion. Wiktionary now has no way to make these stand out yet they are very much more important than regular "form of" entries.
    2. Categories are useful but they apply to an entire page and thus do not stand out on a page such as men which has nine entries and sixteen categories.
    3. The argument about confusing words in definitions is a bit of a red herring considering we have more confusing words such as infinitive, tense, participle, and uncountable in very many "form of" definitions.
  • Why not treat irregularity in a consistent manner as with other "attributes" of words such as countability, transitivity, archaic, obsolete, pejorative, etc:
    men
    1. (irregular) Plural of man.

Hippietrail 00:58, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

That still (to me at least) implies that there exists a valid regular version. Widsith 14:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Me, too.—msh210 20:35, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
And what about when dictionaries list regular plural forms? –The COED, if my memory serves me correctly, explicitly lists prospectuses as the plural form of prospectus.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 20:21, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

To enfishen?

Do we have a word in English for the French empoissonner, meaning to populate or stock with fish? enfish, fishify, enfishen, or just "add fish to"? There should be a word for it, like when fisherman overfish and there's not much fish left in the sea so they need to wait a while until the sea become more enfished? --Rural Legend 14:22, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't think there's a word for it, or if there is most people ignore it in favour of saying "replenish fish stocks" or something. You could always coin an English word empoisson or impescate... Widsith 14:32, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Indeed, the next time I write a novel I shall talk about how fisherman need to reimpescate the oceans after the depescation. Hell, I'll name character after you too. --Rural Legend 15:10, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
Great, I'll keep an eye out for The Sockpuppet Years. Widsith 15:14, 21 November 2007 (UTC)
No precise word, but restock is the word typically used and the context usually makes a modifier unnecessary. DCDuring 15:16, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

cup

cup's English etymology section says it comes from Old English, earlier from Latin, earlier from Hebrew, earlier from PIE. Since when does Hebrew derive from PIE, or Latin from Hebrew (unless, for the latter, it's a loan, in which case it should say so)?—msh210 20:45, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

I've commented out that bit for now. It appears to be random weirdness. Widsith 10:14, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

interoperability

Meaning 3 appears to me to be a specific instance of meaning 2. Can I just delete meaning 3? What's the protocol? - dougher 23:20, 21 November 2007 (UTC)

To be cautious: insert rfd-sense template (which I just did). But that sense def. is so bad that probably no-one would have minded it you would have deleted it. DCDuring 00:16, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

zinc

Can someone add a correct {{en-verb}} inflection for zinc#Verb, it seems that it has a couple of possible inflections - zinckig/zincing/zincked/zinced...I'd coin a new past tenses for zinc at zanc and zunc if I could. --Rural Legend 11:05, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

I thought the verb was galvanize - Algrif 17:12, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Less-used synonym. DCDuring 17:25, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Which is less used? The word we know how to inflect correctly: to galvanize, or the word which does not seem to have any clear inflection: to zinc (??) BTW, I do not have zinc as a verb in any of my dictionaries, but then I don't have that many, I'm afraid. - Algrif 17:43, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
My MW3 gives the "ck" inflections (not zanc amd zunc) as well as the "c" ones. I have never seen of read "zinc" as a verb, though I don't doubt that it is in usage. I don't like the look of the "ck" spellings, but they do avoid the pronunciation confusion of the "c" versions. Let me look up the en-verb template to see how to do it. DCDuring 18:50, 22 November 2007 (UTC)
Thinking about how we treat this problem with other metals.. The most common procedure is to add -plate to the metal noun. Some few metals have special verbs, such as zinc - galvanise, and gold - guild. Some make verbs directly, such as to lead, and to tin. Silver and chrome seem to be used as verbs at times also, but -plate is preferred. I think it will be difficult (but not impossible tho) to find anything verifyable for zinc as a verb. Zinc-plate and galvanise are by far and away the most obvious solutions. Good luck in finding verificatons for the inflections. - Algrif 13:02, 23 November 2007 (UTC) I just noticed. That should read gild! .. Doh.. Algrif 17:15, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
The only one I wasn't able to find on Google Books was zincs. --Ptcamn 19:31, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Which makes me wonder whether the -ed forms are simply adjectival, and the -ing forms nouns or adjectives, in the examples you have found. Handle with care !! - Algrif 17:23, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

street market

I am considering adding this item, but is it a SoP? Reasons in favour of the entry would include the fact that souq, mercadillo, and mercatino all mean street market. Opinions? - Algrif 17:24, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't we want to make this a matter of policy? If it works under existing policy, then it's in. If it doesn't, then it might be an opportunity to review the policy for the newbies like me. I remember that in a recent discussion the translation-from-a-single-word rationale was said not to be policy.
This looks SoP and is not in MW3. But maybe there is more to it. Does a street market necessarily involve closing a street to some classes of traffic, for example? In NY area, we have "farmers' markets" (fresh produce and other food products, not necessarily farmers, sometimes held in parking areas or other public spaces), "street fairs" (more than a market, closes the street), "sidewalk sales" (store-owners allowed to partially obstruct the sidewalk in front of their store), "street vendors", (licensed or unlicensed merchant without premises, selling from sidewalk). We have a few special-purpose buildings for "markets", both wholesale, retail, and mixed, as well as arcades; in these, the mechants can have stores or stalls. We also have "flea markets", typically weekend-only markets for all sorts of goods. Not too many folks from here would think of the phrase "steet market" when looking for meaning. DCDuring 17:52, 22 November 2007 (UTC)

To me it's a set phrase. I totally think it deserves an entry. Widsith 07:58, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

It does seem to be more of a UK thing than US, judging from DCDuring's comment. But I'm leaning more towards a real entry, because both the above comments made me realise that in UK a street market can be found in a car park or other non-street location. The meaning is a temporary market not located in a fixed market building. (More or less!). If I can justify this meaning with cites, then I will enter it. Any help in finding quotes would be appreciated. - Algrif 12:51, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
If someone here said "street market" we would have some expectations about what it was, but I would argue that here it is fundamentally SoP.
There are abundant quotations in travel, geography, history, and sociology. I'm not sure how to find the ones that illustrate the 'setness' of the phrase. Here's an interesting cite from a history book:
  • 1956-2000, H. P. R. Finberg, Joan Thirsk, Edith H. Whetham, Stuart Piggott, H. E. Hallam, Edward Miller, G. E. Mingay, E. J. T. Collins, The agrarian history of England and Wales, page 992
    It was not the custom of London consumers to walk any distance for their food, or any other goods. As a result of this and the inability of the London County Council to establish a single authority to regulate existng markets and establish properly regulated new ones when the need arose, the irregular street market set up in densely populated districts was a feature of the capital. In 1891 there were 112, all unauthorised, and containing 5,292 stalls, of which 65 percent were set aside for the sale of perishable commodities.
There's lots more in this mammoth multi-volume source about markets elsewhere in England and Wales. DCDuring 14:25, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
OK Great. Thanks. I've put another couple of good quotes and entered it with a 'pedia link. - Algrif 16:49, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

how do i create my avatar?

Tea room i am at a loss i can't seem to do anything,how can i start to have fun, i need to make a avatar to chat

eye dialect

This definition bothers me a bit because of the put-down of the speakers of the dialects transliterated this way. I am not saying that the definition is not often accurate. I am saying that not all transliterations of dialect are done to mock the speaker. AAVE is arguably a species of eye dialect that has some effective PR agents and lobbyists. I had wanted to add entries for some New York area eye-dialect (dey, dem, dose, dese, dat for starters, but all of Damon Runyon and Finley Peter Dunne [and others] awaits) and was bothered by the implication of the definition that such entries were not appropriate. Are they? Is it only the usual CFI standards that apply? DCDuring 12:33, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for the definition rewrite. I would guess that Wiktionary would want to have as many eye-dialect entries as possible, especially cited. It is a kind of documentation of popular English that is not readily available by other means and fits with the need of users reading dialog in dialect. DCDuring 00:37, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

Whoever is rewriting this, you may wish also to rewrite Category:Eye dialect and Appendix:Glossary#E.—msh210 17:14, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

jacquetta

Can anyone tell me the meaning of this name. The tribe that it can from was around Preg Oklahoma. I was named after a girl that went to school there.

Thank you

stockingfeet

in one's stockinged feet is listed as an adverb; I was hoping to place stockingfeet as a term of its own, but am unsure what part of speech it would be or how best to define it. It appears in L. Frank Baum's The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, among many other books at b.g.c. Any ideas? sewnmouthsecret 15:48, 23 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, it's a noun. Though I usually see it as two words, or hyphenated. Widsith 15:52, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
I was thinking it was a noun, but in trying to define it, I keep thinking stockinged feet, which is an adjective. b.g.c. has many print cites with it as one word. sewnmouthsecret 16:08, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
No, "stockinged feet" is a compound noun too – a noun phrase if you like, but no one likes that term here. And the singular stocking-foot seems to exist also, by the way. Widsith 16:53, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
We do have stockinged, the past participle of the verb "stocking", which is used as an adjective in both phrases: "in one's stockinged feet" and "stockinged feet". The entire first phrase is adverbial. Both "one's stockinged feet" and "stockinged feet" are noun phrases. At least, I think that's all correct. DCDuring 17:01, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
"Stocking-foot" doesn't seem to usually refer to a foot with a stocking in it. A "stocking-foot wader" is a wader that has a stocking-like foot, which is worn inside socks (for abrasion protection) and an oversized shoe. It contrasts with a "boot-foot wader" which makes direct contact with the rocks and grit of a stream. A "stocking-foot" also seems to refer to the foot part of a stocking. It makes me think that one reason that the somewhat awkward "stockinged feet" has survived is to differentiate "stocking-feet" from "stockinged feet". We could try to preserve the distinction by marking stockingfeet in the sense of "stockinged feet" in some way as a common misspelling (or something) or just note distinct senses. DCDuring 17:17, 23 November 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I think it's the other way round. stocking-foot is the part of a stocking that goes round the foot, ie the bottom bit. "In your stocking-feet" was just a way of saying that you had no shoes on over them (first attested 1802), but as the term got less common, people started hearing it as "stockinged feet" (first attested 1862). Widsith 16:38, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

humbug

I was wanting to add the well known quote from A Christmas Carol from Wikiquotes [11] to the Interjection. But I'm not sure how to do it. - Algrif 12:05, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

What I mean is, is there a special template or approved format to link to wikiquotes? - Algrif 16:19, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
What I need to know is nothing difficult. w: takes a link to wikipedia. s: takes a link to wikisource. What is the way to link to wikiquotes, please? Thanks. - Algrif 12:59, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Ah, gotcha. q:Charles_Dickens#A_Christmas_Carol. Widsith 13:49, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Many thanx. My fault for not being clear in the first place! ;-) - Algrif 17:19, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Bobcat

I've been trying to find the meaning of Bobcat that i found in a leadership book, but it seems like it's nowhere to find. The book speaks about a landscaping company and how they run their business. As I quote here, it says, "Their equipment - including trucks, trailers, and 'Bobcat'". Can someone help me here, please? —This unsigned comment was added by 61.94.126.30 (talk).

Seems like they're a digging-machinery company. See w:Bobcat Company. Widsith 12:13, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
It's a good example of the trademaker's craft. Common word, play on bob- as in "bobbed" and "Cat", short for "Caterpillar", now being defended against genericization of the term bobcat, sense 2. DCDuring 14:32, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
Oh, yea. They make small-scale earth-moving equipment, often used by contractors who need to work in small spaces around existing structures. DCDuring 15:29, 24 November 2007 (UTC)
I added cat as the commonly used abbreviation or both Bobcat and Caterpillar tractors. —This unsigned comment was added by 71.74.216.39 (talk) at 21:35, 3 February 2008 (UTC).

help me ...

There's this sentence that says: "The new President imposed much-needed organization and order on the fledgling company." Can somebody help me to re-phrase it, please?

Pice, is it a coin or a currency?

I notice the word pice has a definition of "A small copper coin of the East Indies, worth less than a cent". But is this correct, as I thought pice or more correctly paisa is a currency rather than an actual coin. Obviously it can be both like cent, but I'm also sure that pice is plural, which makes it unlikely that it means a particular coin. Help appreciated.--Dmol 23:09, 24 November 2007 (UTC)

knows

How should the slang/dialect/illiterate(?) inflection of the verb "know" and the results of the inflection be presented? It certainly seems like a complete separate inflection of the same infinitive lemma: I/you/he/we/they knows, knowing (knowin'???), knowed, knowed. This kind of thing must have been discussed before. DCDuring 15:25, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

Knowed seems to handled adequately. I willhave done something similar for knows. How is it to be handled on the page for know? DCDuring 15:34, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
I did something ,if fine,it's good,otherwise it will be removed.--Etymologist 18:08, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

against time

Is this an idiom? It can be used adjectivally and adverbially. It is part of set phrases like a "race against time". DCDuring 16:57, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

It is a prepositional phrase. It just needs to have Category:English prepositional phrases added. - Algrif 17:47, 25 November 2007 (UTC) p.s. Not sure about it being an adjective though?? Algrif 17:49, 25 November 2007 (UTC)
It is used with nouns describing actions, usually vigorous actions. I often find the semantics renders the grammatical structure invisible to me. Somehow against didn't look like a preposition for a while. DCDuring 18:01, 25 November 2007 (UTC)

the world is your oyster

This doesn't conform with our other entry names. Standard would be world be one's oyster or the world be one's oyster, but those are terrible. Not sure what to do about this. Maybe just leave it where it is. In any event, there should be redirects from the world is his oyster, world is my oyster, the world was her oyster, etc., I suppose.—msh210 17:21, 26 November 2007 (UTC)

Sadly enough, world be one's oyster is correct. DAVilla 08:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Fortunately we can salt the entry with examples that have all the most common phrases in actual use so that the search button will find it for the user. DCDuring 23:13, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

you hear it. you thuoght it, you have done it / see

does this make you reconize the simplcity of actions

Category:Filmology

If it was up to me, I would move this to Category:cinematography and update all the entries to use a proper context tag. Does anyone agree or disagree? SemperBlotto 10:07, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

Yes. I agree. Widsith 10:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
Capitalized.—msh210 23:22, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
No. SemperBlotto 10:57, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Aren't all the topic categories' names capitalized? (I'm referring to the first letter only, of course.)—msh210 05:38, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Disagree Yes, all categories on Wiktionary have their first letter capitalized, though I'm unsure whether the software requires it and some templates we use require this. However, "cinematography" is too narrow a term to cover the category. Filmology exists as a word because cinematography refers to the art of making motion pictures, specifically to aspects of lighting and camera choices. It does not cover other aspects of filmmaking. If another name must be used, I would choose Category:Filmmaking. --EncycloPetey 01:51, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

secret

I think we're missing a sense:

    • 1981, P. L. Travers, Mary Poppins, revised edition, chapter 10,
      Jane and Michael watched the dance, the Hamarynd secret and still between them.

I'm not sure what secret means here. (Note that the Hamarynd was not hiding or, as far as I can tell, obscured from sight.)—msh210 21:43, 27 November 2007 (UTC)

What's a Hamarynd? Is it physical? MW3 has some 9 adj. senses for secret, all them involving hiding, stealth, mystery in one way or another. DCDuring 22:54, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
In the book the Hamarynd seemed to be some kind of snake-god. Physical, yes: having the form of a snake.—msh210 23:21, 27 November 2007 (UTC)
So, a smart snake, then. There's a sense of secret: secretive. By being/holding itself still, the snake seems to be playing an active role. A divine or magical snake may not be all that physical. I doubt if we can do much better than guess at a more precise meaning other than the emotional content of something esoteric and powerful shared by Jane and Michael. DCDuring 00:12, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
Hm, okay. Thanks.—msh210 05:39, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

power processor

I want to ask what is the difference between power processors and micro processors.

One possibility is that "power processor" refers to w:IBM POWER, a particular architecture of microprocessors developed by IBM. Another possibility is that is slang of jargon for a microprocessor that is considered particularly powerful (as opposed to a small and simple processor that is intended more to be cheap than powerful). Can you put the question in conhtext? RJFJR 14:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

just as well

I'm struggling to make a good entry for this phrase. I think just as well or perhaps be just as well, as in It's just as well you came when you did! and similar expressions. In Spanish it would translate as menos mal (if that helps at all). But how to define it well? Any input, ideas, etc would be most appreciated. - Algrif 13:20, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

I think I would drop the "be" because the SoP adverbial phrase "just as well" ("He did it just as well as she did.") serves as the virtual etymology of the more idiomatic-seeming other ways of using the phrase. "Just as well" can be used as an expression of agreement. "They took her driver's license away." "Just as well." for: "Just as well they did." for: "It is just as well that they did." DCDuring 15:28, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
The second sense in the entry for as well nearly captures the meaning for the "as well" part, I think. "might as well", "may as well" are other collocations that come to mind. We should consider adding a sense to "as well" in the course of the "just as well" effort. DCDuring 15:44, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
There are a number of nuances which I find hard to define and categorise in all these phrases. I agree that they probably should be melded in some way to avoid having a whole heap of minor entries which are hard to find. As usual, I tend to put myself in the position of a hypothetical English L2 speaker trying to understand a paragraph which includes one of the above phrases. How would he find it? What should be in the entry so that he can understand it. I'm finding this phrase surprisingly difficult to pin down. Sense 2 in as well is just about OK for the phrase might as well, but gets nowhere near the positive/negative idea of fortunate + or else contained in the exchange I did my homework - It's just as well! or I have a spanner in the car. - It's just as well! and so on. - Algrif 12:45, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Acca Dacca

Can anyone help verify and date this nickname? I can only find one example in Google Books, but there's a number of news hits, all of which are from the 21st century. Would anyone be able to find some attestations from the 70s or 80s? --Ptcamn 22:46, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

It just looks like the name of an Australian-based AC/DC tribute band, as you must have suspected. DCDuring 23:09, 28 November 2007 (UTC)
So does this rock band deserve a dictionary entry? --EncycloPetey 01:46, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
We don't have the band sense for AC/DC. Until we do, I can't see the point of having an entry for a mere w:tribute band. Nor would I care if w:AC/DC never made Wiktionary. I am aware of them, but not really familiar with them or their work. There are other proper name efforts I would much rather engage in. Sorry I couldn't be more help. DCDuring 02:02, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
RfD'd. bd2412 T 02:10, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
It was (and is) a nickname for the original band before the tribute band took it as its name. --Ptcamn 16:26, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Even so, not dictionary material. bd2412 T 16:50, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Why not? --Ptcamn 22:04, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
It could be if it is used to describe AC/DC electrical devices. I'd be surprised if it weren't in at least limited actual usage in Oz, though I couldn't find any cites. DCDuring 17:49, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Mobile Directory Number

What is it?

Contraction 'ns

Can anyone tell me what the contraction 'ns means (or could mean) in Southern American English? I came across this in utterance "That'ns cut!" but for the love of God I cannot figure out what it could mean, exactly. --130.209.6.42 14:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

Being from London I'm just guessing, but I would interpret it as "that one is cut", whatever that may mean. Widsith 14:14, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
Sounds right to me. I would have expected it to be written "that un's cut" with un's being a slurred pronounciation of one's, the contraction for one is. RJFJR 14:17, 29 November 2007 (UTC)
You'ns got that right or 'most right. I wonder how to write double contractions: "that'n's"? Or is that spelling the possessive singular? Wiktionary ought to have uns and either 'ns or -'ns or something to capture this. What should it be? DCDuring 16:10, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

epilogue 3rd sense

The current third sense of epilogue is 3 A brief oration or script at the end of a literary piece; an afterword. Is oration the correct term to describe something in a literary piece? I think of oration as something spoken while a piece of literature as soemthing read. RJFJR 14:27, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

It looks to me as if all the senses given in epilogue were intended to include both orally delivered pieces and those in writing. Maybe the phrase "literary piece" should be replaced with "oral or written work" or "work". "Literary" seems to exclude oral performances, even of written works. In any event, it can mislead people as it does in the def. under discussion, I think. DCDuring 16:24, 29 November 2007 (UTC)

December 2007

Double contractions

Just to keep this separate from that'un's above, although closely related.
It seems to be unconfirmed policy, or something like that, to avoid double contractions. I wonder if this can be clarified? What exactly is wrong with can't've, that'll've, and other doubles that an Eng L2 might come across in a text? - Algrif 10:40, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

If in print, I don't see any problem with double contractions. See 'tisn't, 'twasn't, 'tweren't, I'd've, it'sn't, shouldn't've, and wouldn't've. Why would they be avoided if in use, no matter how much people may dislike them? I'm sure there are many more. sewnmouthsecret 04:53, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Are there any more of these that could be added to Category:English double contractions?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 14:19, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Of course there are. You don't even have fo'c'sle yet! Robert Ullmann 14:33, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Now added. Feel free to add any others you can think of to the category.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 17:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
'Tisn't hard to find them. Make a game of it. The young'uns'll find plenty that we old'uns've already forgotten. The real question is whether they deserve the be entered here if they are eye-dialect. You for'em or 'gin'em? Gotta go now. Be back in an hour if my car'll get me there'n'back. If mine won't, maybe my neighbor's'll do the trick. DCDuring 17:13, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
If they’re attested, they should be listed. BTW, most of the examples you gave are not double contractions, being instead for ‛em (minus the space), ‛gin ‛em (ditto), there ‛n’ back (same again), and neighbo(u)r’s’ll (where the ’s is not a contraction, but rather the English possessive enclitic).  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 18:05, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I'm just an impatient amateur. Thanks for the feedback. DCDuring 18:40, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmmm... why are you using the opening quotation mark instead of an apostrophe? DAVilla 11:38, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I’m not — «  » is the leading apostrophe, whereas «  » is the opening quotation mark — both are distinct from «  », the apostrophe-cum-closing quotation mark.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 16:00, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
What about triple contractions? fo'c's'le Cynewulf 00:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Hmm… Thinking about it, I’m not sure that fo’c’sle and fo’c’s’le count as double contractions, being as they’re both single words, simply split in two/three places. All the others listed in Category:English double contractions contain contractions of two words as clitics (it‛t; notn’t; would or should’d; have’ve; is’s; and, will or shall’ll).  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 15:16, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Depends how you define "contraction". If "contraction" means that the "'" indicates missing letter(s), then fo’c’sle is a double contraction of forecastle. Algrif 11:50, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
I defined a double contraction in Category:English double contractions; whereatop is written “Double contractions are those words which contain two contractional clitics, such as n’t and ’ve. Both contractions are marked with apostrophes.” — under that definition, fo’c’sle is a contraction, but not a double contraction.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 13:52, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Where d'you get that definition from? fo'c'sle is contracted twice - it's a double contraction. The OED defines the relevant sense of contraction as shortening "by omitting or combining some elements". fo'c'le is shortened in this way twice. The amount of actual words involved is not relevant (or how do you view o'clock which cuts an entire word out of "of the clock"?). PS, I'm pretty sure whereatop isn't a word, but if it is I suspect you're the first person in 200 years to try and get away with it! Widsith 14:25, 6 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, I did some checking: both hereatop and whereatop are vanishingly rare (though I did find one person who’s used whereatop — not two centuries ago, but only last year), whereas, bizarrely enough, thereatop is rather common (in patents no less). BTW, I should be genuinely interested to hear on what grounds you state whether something is or is not a word…  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 22:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that if fo'c'sle is neither a single nor a double contraction, then what is it? A multiple contraction? But that would be pointless hair-splitting IMHO. I've put bo's'n in catagory double contraction, and I think fo'c'sle and fo'c's'le should be there also. - Algrif 10:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
The OED’s pertinent definition of contraction doesn’t actually conflict with the one I gave — it says nowhere that the “omitt[ed] or combin[ed] … elements” must be adjacent. However, perhaps that really would be hair-splitting. I’m unsure what to call o’clock — perhaps it is indeed a double contraction. To twist the “rules” a bit — bo’s’n could be viewed as “boatbo’* ” + “swains’n* ”, whilst fo’c’sle and fo’c’s’le could be viewed as “forefo’* ” + “castlec’sle* or c’s’le* ”. Otherwise, we’d need Category:English triple contractions just for fo’c’s’le (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 22:58, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm trying to think of any more examples of o' = of the apart from o'clock and jack o'lantern. Also, are there any other examples where the apostrophe indicates the loss of an entire word? - Algrif 12:41, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

chaos

I am looking for information on the word tohubohu. I was told that it means chaos. If there is any info out there in the great wide web, please send it out. tohubohu sounds like something sad or crying;I know that it is more than what it sounds like, I find myself thinking about what it could mean.

boohoo sounds more like some one is crying or sad... and thus one is easily mislead into thinking that tohubohu could mean that aswell... but it is not, it comes from Hebrew tohu wa-bhohu, from tohu (formlessness) and bhohu (emptiness), so a formless emptiness. Reference: New York Times Letter to the Editor March 26, 1995 --BigBadBen 21:17, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
For what it's worth, the Hebrew is תהו ובהו(tohu vavohu), from the second verse in Genesis. It means "תהו(tohu) and בהו(bohu)", but what those are beats me. If I recall correctly, major classical Bible commentators differ about them.—msh210 20:22, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Shinola

I have often wondered about how one should pronounce the word "Shinola", which was as though carved in stone when the famous slang/colloquial phrase appeared and spread.))) Not for use in my speech, personally, but just for knowing, because eventually I have to read it aloud from books. Is the shoe-polish named [ʃɪ`nəʊlə]? [`ʃɪnələ]? [ʃaɪ`nəʊlə]? Eate 15:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

I don't know the notation, but first syllable rhymes with "shine", accent is on second syllable, as I've heard it. The commercial logic of the rhyme with "shine" would make me willing to bet a lot of money at long odds that that part of the pronunciation was encouraged by the manufacturer as well. I'm not as sure about the accent. DCDuring 15:24, 30 November 2007 (UTC)
Aha...So it is probably "Shy-NO-la". The analogy with the slang word "payola", which I know to bear stress on the second syllable, encourages me to think that the stress falls indeed on the second one. The slang suffix "-ola" is generally stressed in words that include it. Thanks. Eate 16:20, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

яблочко от яблоньки недалеко падает

Is currently categorised as English idioms and English proverbs. Can s/o who knows change to the correct cats, please? - Algrif 16:16, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

It's now in Category:Russian idioms and Category:Russian proverbs. To change the {{idiom}} template, you had to add |lang=ru : {{idiom|lang=ru}}. — Beobach972 00:09, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

cumberbund

Anyone know where the conversation for this went? This should be listed as an alternative spelling, not a misspelling, right? --Connel MacKenzie 00:30, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

I think of it as a Freudian misspelling. It reflects the deep-seated hostility of many of those forced to encumber themselves with such "monkey suits". MW3 doesn't include this spelling. DCDuring 00:54, 1 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I do recall it being discussed previously, but I can't seem to find which spelling variant it was WT:TR listed under. --Connel MacKenzie 06:00, 2 December 2007 (UTC)
Wiktionary:Tea room/Archive 2006#cumberbund Robert Ullmann 07:37, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Thank you. Rats. I didn't realize that conversation died out before it began. (I wasn't asking what the OED says...I was asking for confirmation of the American pronunciation that I've always used. Do other Americans share that experience, or have I simply mispronounced (and misheard it) all my life?) --Connel MacKenzie 15:59, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Totally common mispronunciation and misspelling. I just answered someone last month in "real life" who was wondering which was which. But indeed, completely an outright mispronunciation and misspelling. An older actual spelling variant in use was kummerbund. The commonness of cumberbund, i believe, is influenced phonetically by Cumberland and cumbersome (by phonetics, not Freudian hostility, DC) :) -- Thisis0 19:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Not having seen the word in writing often (ever?), I didn't have strong expectatons about its spelling. "Cumberbund" didn't strike me as obviously wrong when I saw it. Because (1) I associate formal dress with England, (2) the English have the habit of not pronouncing certain consonants and syllables, and (3) I was not aware of the Asian etymology, I might have writen "cumberbund" if asked. DCDuring 20:04, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Serbian translation change

An anon recently changed the Serbian translation of thither from Lua error in Module:links/templates at line 63: The language code "sr" is not valid. to Lua error in Module:links/templates at line 63: The language code "sr" is not valid.. Though Serbian can be written in both the Cyrillic script and the Latin script, these two translations are not transliterations of each other. Is this correction, vandalism, POV-pushing, or what?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 16:33, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

The same user has made many similar edits to other pages, including blanking some pages. Ivan and Dijan ought to have a look at the contributions form this user. --EncycloPetey 01:43, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Basic word list ALMOST done

The basic word list of 18,000 words is all but done. There are less than 100 words left, all beginning with 'N' (in fact, they all begin 'non'.) If we all grab a couple of words we can have this DONE. The remaining few words are at Wiktionary:Requested_articles:English/DictList/N. RJFJR 02:25, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Precisely sixty-five remain.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 15:22, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
They have all now been added. The last word on the list to be added was nonstriking.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 17:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Done. I probably missed the point of nonredeemable and some other law-related words, and there's an atomic physics sense of nonsecular I can't figure out (which may just belong on secular), so I'd appreciate additional viewpoints here. Cynewulf 17:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Well done everyone. As for nonsecular, it seems to be used as non-secular more often, and I can't get a handle on the mathematical meaning (nothing in Mathworld). SemperBlotto 17:52, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Secular in econometrics always refers to longer-term, usually non-cyclical phenomena, contrary to the RfVd sense of secular as meaning short-term. I'd be amazed if any of the sciences used the word too differently, although what constitutes longer term is always relative to the context, which, in physics, could be femtoseconds. DCDuring 18:05, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The OED has (in a long entry) the following - 7. In scientific use, of processes of change: Having a period of enormous length; continuing through long ages. a. Astr. Chiefly of changes in the orbits or the periods of revolution of the planets, as in secular acceleration, equation, inequality, variation. The terms secular acceleration, secular variation were formerly also used (with reference to the sense ‘century’ of L. sæculum) for the amount of change per 100 years; similarly secular precession (see quot. 1812). secular equation is also used more widely to designate any equation of the form |aij-bij| = 0 (i,j = 1,2, . . ., n), in which the left-hand side is a determinant and which arises in quantum mechanics. SemperBlotto 18:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Now that the basic list is complete - maybe it would be a good idea to rebuild Index:English. Kipmaster automated this well over a year ago, but is too busy in the real world to repeat the process. SemperBlotto 18:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, he resurfaced on IRC this week... --Connel MacKenzie 15:56, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

X of Xes

What's the proper place, if any, to note this pattern in English? as in "Lord of lords", "code of codes", "lie of lies", etc. DAVilla 11:28, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know - but there is a similar (just as troublesome) pattern - as in "cricketer's cricketer", "editor's editor", "pianist's pianist" - i.e. a professional admired by his peers. SemperBlotto 11:31, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Are these a form of reduplication? (And should we have entries for food food, car car, and house house?) DAVilla 11:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Which of those have sufficient use (e.g. b.g.c.) to merit entries? --Connel MacKenzie 16:03, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Also man's man, and gentleman's gentleman, which don't quite fit that pattern. (of professional admired by peers) Robert Ullmann 12:11, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
What about reduplication across part of speech? I think of the forms "X y an X" or "X y no Xes". "[F]ind me a find, catch me a catch" from Fiddler on the Roof. "Joke us no jokes". "Riddle me a riddle, riddler." It doesn't seem to work at the WT entry level. WP? DCDuring 16:41, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
I made a theme entry on this at Wikiquote:X me no X's quite a while ago. If a list of quotes containing such themes can be generated with proper citation, it can go there. Cheers! bd2412 T 16:58, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Cool. Well, name me a name. Construct me a construct. Are there names for these constructions? The "X me no Xes" construction is referred to in Pinker (2007), The Stuff of Thought. DCDuring 17:48, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The word you are looking for is snowclone. bd2412 T 16:40, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I think having pattern entries is unwarranted. If you are trying to describe reduplication then link reduplication. If you'd like to make an entry for Lord of Lords then make that entry - the list is not infinite. --Connel MacKenzie 16:02, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
There could be a nice appendix, though. Perhaps only if there were good specific terms (Sorry, BD, not snowclone) for the constructs so that someone might actually find them. Maybe it is more for Wikipedia? DCDuring 19:15, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Not forgetting tautological phrases such as folks are folks, life is life, sure as eggs is eggs, and any other that might warrant an entry. - Algrif 10:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

working

S.v. working, adjective, we have the following definitions, inter alia:

  1. That suffices but requires additional work.
    a working copy of the script
  2. Enough to allow one to use something.
    a working knowledge of computers

The first of these is not how I understand the phrase "working copy of the script" (or "working script"). I have always understood that phrase to mean "a copy of the script that we will accept for the sake of [something: [[for the sake of argument|argument], peacemaking, whatever] (even though it's not ideal)". That is, the stress on "requires additional work", which seems to relate this definition to the headword, seems misplaced: working means, the way I understand it, "that works (suffices) well enough to be used". (Whether I'm right or the current entry is, the same sense of working is found in "working hypothesis" and "working definition".) What think you all?—msh210 17:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Also, if I'm right, then is the second sense I quoted to be merged with the first? They both seem to mean "sufficient to be used".—msh210 17:22, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't combine senses.
  • One sense (2) seems to mean that further efforts are not required, that the knowledge or the voting margin is enough for practical purposes, for some other project, or perhaps that the means are sufficient to accomplish ends.
  • The other sense (1) seems to suggest that the prototype or draft is sufficient in some aspect(s) to allow further work on other aspect(s) of the same project.
This vocabulary of work has never struck me as having been very well done in dictionaries. So I'm not so sure that you will find very precise help from other dictionaries. I looked at MW3. They have 2 senses.
  • Is there a third sense, that just means functional, or is that the same as sense 1 or is that the present participle of the verb (which needs no definition)? DCDuring 19:53, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
That (your reason not to combine) seems eminently reasonable to me. Since you asked, there are other senses, yes, including the one you mention; I didn't quote them all. My main question, incidentally, which you did not really address, was whether the first sense I quoted needs rewriting, though.—msh210 20:14, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it does. I think it refers to a thing which maintains its identity but itself needs successive and/or parallel work. The thing being worked in is an "end". That does not come across. The other sense implies that the thing does not itself need work, it functions well enough to be used as a tool, a "means". DCDuring 20:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)
Neither do I see any definition like working temperature, working speed etc. - Algrif 10:44, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

ablings

I was researcing a requested new entry "ablings" and came upon the following:

The New English - Page 15 by T[homas] L[aurence] Kington Oliphant - English language - 1886 There is the curious Scotch adverb ablings, aiblins (fortasse) ; compounded of able to be, and the adverbial ending ling.

I do not know my way around these parts and would offer this for others to complete. DCDuring 20:30, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

I know that as a Scot - Google finds "aiblins" in Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary.--195.137.93.171 12:59, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

man up

Can you guys help me comprehend all the senses of man up. It has a verb sense, as in... "A lot of people are expecting me to provide for them, I'd better man up". And I have a vague notion it has an interjection sense in sports ("Man up!") or something. Looking at b.g.c. it's difficult to research. A little easier to research "manning up" but that confuses me more because it seems to have LOTS of distinct unrelated meanings. Language Lover 09:05, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Sounds more like an oblique figurative use, not a set phrase, to me. --Connel MacKenzie 19:13, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It is a set phrase, attributive verb use of the word "man", as in "doing the things a good man is traditionally expected to do". In use since at least the 50's, often in military circles. Search BGC "have to man up" for some examples. Used with influence from "own up" and "buck up" (for the want of a stronger emphatic) in situations such as this: one who impregnates a girl out of wedlock will be told to "man up" and marry the girl or otherwise provide for her; one can "man up" and finally confront his abusive coach or employer; one can "man up" and quit crying about a particular tragedy. To "be a man about it". I'll try to find some good cites for the entry. -- Thisis0 00:38, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Also I should note the team-sports, macro-economics/staffing, and procedural-military uses:
    (Am. football, basketball, etc.; rare) Man up! -- "Get on your man!" (Each of you, guard the opponent to whom you were assigned and stay on him vigorously.)
    (of personnel - industrial, etc.) to man up -- to staff adequately; to staff up; to successfully fill all needed labor positions.
    -...it will become even more difficult to man up industrial occupations to which outmoded conceptions of status...[12]
    -To man up the last batch of capital goods produced, entrepreneurs are scraping up the remnants of the reserve of unemployed labour...[13]
    -...it will be impossible to find the labour to man up all the available capital equipment for productive use. [14]
    (of military personnel in a unit) to man up -- to assemble, each person manning (attending to) his station, prepared for departure of an aircraft, ship, etc. [15] [16]
  • It is now my opinion that other uses arose from the military-assembling use. The sports use is rare, and most players would more readily recognize "Get on your man!". If a player is told to Man up! on the field, in context it may be, for example, a hunched-over out-of-breath player being told to "buck up", "stay in the game", "be a man" -- precisely the first sense we discussed. Further, the staffing use has become outdated, while politically correct society no longer favors referring to "manpower", "manning" a position, etc. -- Thisis0 18:34, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

throw-down

“A big row or argument.” –That is how I interpreted this word when it was used in the episode of Heroes I recently watched. I’m unfamiliar with this term, so I’d like some confirmation or correction. The quotation can be read in the entry, and the original programme can be watched here.  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 20:09, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

While we’re discussing this, the verb throw down could also use a little attention. The definition seems incompatible with the use in the phrase throw down the gauntlet (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 20:13, 6 December 2007 (UTC)

Does the verb throw down look a bit better now? - Algrif 17:48, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
I've only said it/heard it as an invitation/threat to fight, e.g. "Yo, I'll throw down, right now!" but I assume that form is not hyphenated. The literal definition really doesn't help much. The idiomatic sense is of dropping whatever you are doing/holding, to engage violently (no holds barred.) I've never heard it said so mildly/sweetly, as in that TV show. So anyhow, yes, I can confirm that I've heard/used that meaning, but don't have any idea what other confirmation you're looking for. --Connel MacKenzie 19:08, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Defining it as "A big row or argument" has certain problems. First, Americans don't usually say "row", plus that's a awfully nice sideline commentary for what a "throw-down", "throw down", or "throwdown" implies. I believe the modern term did evolve from the idiom throw down the gauntlet, and implies that an unrestricted violent clash is possible, with one's honor at stake. Because of the fear in such a "you don't know how far I'm willing to take this" animalistic clash, the usage of the term doesn't always necessarily result in such actual violence, but is often an effective form of puffing the mane or fanning the tail feathers. The Heroes use was in hyperbole to this violent possibility -- not saying "Well, we'll discuss this when I get back," but rather, "Even though I'm forced to leave right now, when I can address this, you should know I view your transgression with ultimate seriousness, and you should sit here and be anxious for my return when I will visit my wrath upon you." -- Thisis0 20:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Can anyone identify this word?

The word is in some song lyrics which go like this: "Hold up, hold up, check my linguistics, let me break it down to you ______________" It sounds like "abalistic" but that doesn't seem to be a word.

You can hear the lyrics in question starting at 0:48 at this video: [17] Language Lover 02:30, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I would have guessed cannabalistic or catabolistic, but lyrics.com says it's "Afrolistic". [tumbleweed moment] --EncycloPetey 02:55, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

From the artist's own lyric page, it's "afrolistic". (You might have to click on "Give Me All Your Love"; their HTML is buggy). There is at least one other rap artist who goes by "Afrolistic", and Run-D.M.C. once used the word in their 1990 song Party Time. The Run-D.M.C. sense (adjective) seems to be something like "psychedelically funky and hip-hop infused", but the unrelated Afrolistic Barber Shop may be combining "Afro" with "holistic" -- (only a guess). I can't really get A.K.-S.W.I.F.T.'s adverb use (Let me break it down to you afrolistically?), though lyrics.com seems to think it's more of an interjection. If I were forced to analyze, I would say the most encompassing definition would be "in a black way" or "reflecting the self-celebrated aspects of black art, worldview, and lifestyle". -- Thisis0 21:01, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

That makes sense, it's an interesting word and I appreciate your analysis. I've found that some rappers are incredibly brilliant linguists, their command of practical English is sublime. Language Lover 21:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

it's on the tip of my toungue

what's the word for a period of time where you work. I really need to know. —This unsigned comment was added by 220.240.161.105 (talk) at 22:37, 7 December 2007.

In some types of occupations, shift (or the dialectical variant trick, as in I'm tired lately because I'm working third trick.) describes the period of time when someone works in a particular position. Is that the word you seek? Rod (A. Smith) 22:52, 7 December 2007 (UTC)
Possibly tenure?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 23:47, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

catachresis + -phobia = ?

I need a word meaning “fear of the misuse of words”; I assume that the word and suffix linked in the title would do the trick. If so, how would they combine? The COED states that the adjectival form is catachrestic, and that the noun derives from Latin, from (Ancient?) Greek katakhrēsis, from Lua error in Module:links/templates at line 44: The parameter "4" is not used by this template. — if any of that helps. I can’t figure it out — maybe catachresophobia, or catachrestophobia, or catachretophobia perhaps?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 00:16, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

further as comparative

Following from part of the discussion above in atop: the question was never resolved of whether further and furthest can be classified equally as more / most and less / least to form comparative and superlatives of certain adjectives and adverbs with a particularly spacial frame of reference. For instance there is quite a long list in the section above at atop.
My personal point of view is that an adverb such as upstairs is a better entry stating a comparative form as further upstairs than stating (not comparable), particularly as this is plainly not true. Comments invited. - Algrif 16:32, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

U-usage notes. Def'nally u-u-usage notes. -- Thisis0 17:22, 8 December 2007 (UTC)
Can the en-adv template be forced to display "See Usage notes." without messing up anything else? DCDuring 18:00, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
If this is needed in only a scant few (read: one) entries, why mess with templates? Just write it in. -- Thisis0 19:40, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
One reason would be in order to allow it to show up inside the parentheses that are generated by the template. Mike Dillon 20:22, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
It's not just a single entry. This applies to dozens of adverbs derived from (or related to) prepositions of place, incuding afield, along, apart, away, down, in, left, out, right, up... So it would be very useful to be able to set the template to show further/furthest instead of more/most. --EncycloPetey 21:47, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Ok, I'm sold. I get it now. How do we do it? -- Thisis0 21:55, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I've modified the template entry at upstairs. If everyone agrees, perhaps we could draw up a list and I'll go through them modifying them as appropriate similarly. - Algrif 13:26, 12 December 2007 (UTC)
I think it would be nice to have a parameter option akin to the "|er" that would do this. Is that an easy adjustment to the template, or a difficult adjustment to the template? In any case, that format doesn't match the norm, which would put further and furthest in bold as part of the form. --EncycloPetey 15:00, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

katus

Please see Citations:katus. Anyone know what this word means? Or are the quotations simply of someone’s name and a scanno, respectively?  (u):Raifʻhār (t):Doremítzwr﴿ 17:43, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about the second, but the first appears to be a surname, since the same source has: "Mr. Katus was duly qualified, and entered on the discharge of his duties as a judge or inspector of election, and continued so to act until the poll closed." --EncycloPetey 21:52, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

Noun or adjective

I stumbled upon a Wikipedia category, the name of which doesn't sound quite right in my ears. Category:Municipal owned companies of Norway. Shouldn't it be municipality here? __meco 21:53, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

Either that, "municipal-owned", or municipally. --EncycloPetey 22:23, 8 December 2007 (UTC)

plural proper nouns

Names can be pluralised, right? It is clear they can because saying "there are three Davids in my class, two Samanthas, a couple of Simpsons and five Joneses." If that's the case all entries in Category:Given names should take the template {{en-proper noun|s|-}} or {{en-proper noun|s|-}}. Firstly; this is grammatically correct, right? Secondly; could a bot, like our Cheatbot, be adapted to auto-add entries such as {{plural of|Simpson}}, {{plural of|David}}? I'm beginning to appreciate 'bot work a lot more. --Keene 16:20, 9 December 2007 (UTC)

No, proper nouns cannot be made plural. A proper noun in its "plural" form is no longer a proper noun (in most cases, that is; Alps is an exception). So, a proper noun changes its part of speech to a common noun when it's pluralized. We're not at all equipped to handle or explain this phenomenon on Wiktionary, and we certainly should not go around adding plural forms to all the proper nouns. Please wait for me to finish Appendix:English proper nouns so that I don't have to give all this explanation over and over. (This is, I think, the fifth or sixth time this issue has come up this year.) I would rather we simply link all English proper nouns to the Appendix when it's completed. --EncycloPetey 16:43, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
I was unaware of previous discussions on this subject. Could you point them out? As for plurals, I'm aware they become common nouns in the pluralised form, but it would make sense to link e.g. Simpsons from Simpson. As for this proper nouns appendix, what do you have in mind for it. Maybe I'll help out with the appendix. --Keene 16:56, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Having a proper noun linked to a common noun, and vice versa doesn't make sense in the usual ways that we handle it. Every user will think it's a mistake and try to "fix" it unless we come up with an alternative way to handle it. I'd point you to the discussions, but they've occurred over several months under several names in multiple locations. I haven't tried to keep track of all of them, though I do know that one concerned the word multiverse, so you might follow the "what links here" to find a very metaphysical (and lengthy) conversation on what constitutes a proper noun. As I say, I don't recall where the others are located. They involved the days of the week, names of games, wines, awards, and I forget what else.
While I would like help with the Appendix, it's not feasible yet to coordinate that. I have several pages of notes in tiny cramped handwriting which have not yet been entered. What I do have typed is in an incomplete draft of just the introductory material, not the evidence and patern description. My aim is to make a go at finishing the first draft over my Christmas holiday, so if you check back around the end of December, I might be ready to have the second mind and pair of eyes help with the missing information and necessary polishing. --EncycloPetey 17:12, 9 December 2007 (UTC)
Just so you know; I've added Potteries as another real plural proper noun. - Algrif 14:23, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

hmph

I have entered hmph as an interjection, which seems OK. G.b.c. has revealed usage of "hmphs" as noun and as verb. I would expect "hmphing" and "hmphed". "ah" and "ahem", as well as other onomatopoietic [sp?] entries would have the same usage. Should these be accepted as entries if attestable? If these are all accepted, what should be done with variants with repetitions of the constituent letters: "hmmph", "aaaahhhh", etc. Keep the basic ones and put everything else in usage notes for the related entry? DCDuring 16:37, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

See ah and aah, which actually aren't synonymous. --EncycloPetey 17:12, 10 December 2007 (UTC)

Guilty as charged

can anyone help me with the meaning of "Guilty as charged", please? —This unsigned comment was added by 61.94.124.138 (talk) at 02:48, 12 December 2007 (UTC).

See guilty and charge verb sense 3 (To formally accuse of a crime.) . as often means exactly equal. So the whole phrase means guilty of the exact crime one was accused of. Ciao - Algrif 13:13, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

דבר / לדבר / מדבר

At first glace דבר means "thing", לדבר means "to speak", and מדבר means "desert".

At a closer look מדבר can also be the masculine singular present of "to speak".

How about מדבר as "of/from the thing" and לדבר as "to/for the thing"? — Hippietrail 03:29, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

דבר is davar, "thing", and is one way of spelling diber, "he spoke", the third-person, masc., sing., past tense of "speak", which Ruakh will tell you is the lemma form.
לדבר is l'daber, "to speak", infinitive form of that same verb. Yes, it's also ladavar, "to the thing", which is davar plus prefixes. I suppose it can also be l'davar, "to a thing", again davar plus a prefix.
מדבר is m'daber, "he speaks/is speaking", the masc., sing., present tense of that same verb again. It's also (seemingly unrelatedly) midbar, "desert", noun, barren area. And I suppose it can also be midavar, "from a thing", again davar plus a prefix.
But "from the thing" would have to be mehadavar, מהדבר.
There's an old paal-construction verb davar, "speak", too, though, which would open uo possibilities for other meanings of all three words.
And in Talmudic Aramaic, at least, דבר is a way of writing di bar, "who/that the son of" (as in John, di bar William ihu,, "John, who is the son of William,"), or "that the son of" (as in kevan di bar William ihu, "because he is the son of William"). (The Hebrew counterpart incidentally is sheben, שבן.) But Aramaic, of course, is a whole other story.
I hope that this helps.—msh210 05:53, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I might just add that it's not at all unusual (though I have no stats) to find homographs in Hebrew when one ignores vowels.—msh210 06:01, 14 December 2007 (UTC)
I think you're splitting hairs about מהדבר (meihaddavar, from the thing), since מדבר (middavár, from (a) thing) and מדבר (midd'vár, from (a/the) thing of) both exist. —RuakhTALK 05:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't know what you mean. All I said was that מהדבר was a word, and that it's the way to say "from the thing".—msh210 03:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
He was making a point about identically spelled words/phrases; you're right that he slightly mistranslated one of said phrases, but that didn't really diminish his point at all. —RuakhTALK 06:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I might also add some forms I left out. Ruakh mentioned d'var, "thing of", which is also spelled דבר, but with yet different vowelization; it, too can take the prefixes that make it לדבר or מדבר. And in Aramaic, the same word di bar can also mean "that outside" or "that besides"; the Hebrew counterpart is שחוץ.msh210 03:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
Oh, and another: dever, "plague" and "plague of", each of which also can become לדבר or מדבר.—msh210 19:57, 17 December 2007 (UTC)
This is a thorny issue. From a syntactic standpoint, לדבר (laddavár, to the thing) is really two words in traditional Hebrew, and perhaps two-and-a-half in ordinary modern Hebrew. The French Wiktionary does attempt to include such compounds (and does a bad job of it, but don't tell it I said so), but I don't know if we should. One of the most annoying things about looking up Hebrew words in a paper dictionary is trying to figure out what letter the lemma starts with; we aim to avoid this issue by including pages for non-lemmata (and as y'all know by now, I advocate having non-lemma pages link to lemmata so that our readers can actually learn something instead of being completely dependent on the crumbs we give them), but if we don't include these clitic compounds, we haven't completely solved the problem (though granted, it's a lot easier for a Wiktionary reader to try both the with- and without-clitic versions to see which is right than it would be for a paper-dictionary reader). On the other hand, are we really going to include a separate entry for each series of words where all but the last is a one-letter word? Would the phrase ושמהפה (v'shemmeihappéh, and that from the mouth) get an entry? I think that for now we should bar such entries (except in the case of idioms and fixed expressions, obviously, just as we'd do if the phrases were written with spaces as in English), but perhaps we should revisit this question once we have decent coverage of actual words. (That said, things like הפה (happéh, the mouth) are probably worth allowing even now, since while in one sense they're sum-of-parts, in another sense they're words in their own right, at least in traditional Hebrew.) —RuakhTALK 05:36, 15 December 2007 (UTC)
What do you mean by being two (or 2.5) words syntactically?—msh210 03:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I mean just that: syntactically, it's the preposition ל- (l'-, to, for) plus the nominal הדבר (haddavár, the thing). (The .5 thing is because it's kind of debatable whether ה- (ha-, the) is syntactically a word or an affix in Modern Hebrew. In colloquial Hebrew it's very word-y, e.g. in always going at the beginning of the noun phrase or adjective phrase it's attached to, but formal Hebrew still obeys the traditional rule that mandates e.g. בית הספר (beit hasséfer, the school), so it seems to be a bit blurry, depending on register and whatnot.) —RuakhTALK 06:19, 16 December 2007 (UTC)
I must disagree with barring entries such as ושמהפה for now. (As most people can't read that, let me explain that it consists of the two-letter word meaning mouth, preceded by four one-letter prefixes.) I think such entries, while clearly far from being a priority, are words, and, as we seek to include all words in all languages, should be included if someone has the (admittedly odd) urge to add them. Certainly we should not delete them. (But I know I differ with Ruakh on this. He, for example, has taken Tbot-created Hebrew infinitive verb entries, moved them to the lemma form, rewritten them, and deleted the redirect. I would never do that. I might or might not add the lemma form, but would not delete the infinitive. It is a word, after all.) What do you all think?—msh210 19:55, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
I disagree with your explanation: in Modern Hebrew it's a two-letter word "mouth", preceded by four clitics — one-letter words, really — two conjunctions, a preposition, and the definite article. (In older forms of Hebrew, I guess it's a three-letter word "the mouth" and three clitics.) Hence, until we expand our mandate to "all strings of characters in all languages", I don't think it warrants inclusion. ;-)   (To see that it's not a word, consider Template:Hebr "and that out from his mouth came a lie", which is Template:Hebr): the five words, though written together without spaces, don't even form a constituent in the larger structure of the sentence.) I certainly agree with you that to-infinitives should have some sort of entry, but the redirects are bad, because they're essentially redlinks, but aren't instantly recognizable as such. —RuakhTALK 20:27, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
Maybe a linguist would consider each of those one-letter prefixes "words", but your typical person looking up a Hebrew word in the English Wiktionary will consider a word to end with whitespace. (Or a hyphen, perhaps, but whatever.) That's why we need these entries. Here's an experiment you can try at home: open a fairly simple Hebrew book (say, a book for little kids), and ask your favorite seven-year-old who can read Hebrew — or, for that matter, your favorite thirty-year-old who can read Hebrew and has never read any linguistics — to count the number of words on a given page.—msh210 06:02, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

Subjunctive after estimate (verb)?

Does estimate take a subjunctive in the subordinate clause? Would it be "I estimate that the target arrive ..." or "I estimate that the target arrives ..."? I know that the latter is allowed since subjunctives are optional in English, but would the former be valid usage? --MathiasRav 17:50, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Opinion verbs, such as think, reckon, guess, suppose, etc, including estimate, normally take a modal such as will, might, could, etc. No hard and fast rules (as usual in English) but the suggested subjunctive form above sounds odd to me. I don't remember using it or seeing it. (Which doesn't mean it can't be found, of course.) - Algrif 18:56, 12 December 2007 (UTC)

Stroke count for

Hello,

Reference page: http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E5%BE%A1

By my understanding, the stroke count for this word (at least in Japanese) is 12, not 11 as listed on Wiktionary.

Does anyone else agree?

Character: 御

Kind regards, Kevin —This unsigned comment was added by Kevinarpe (talkcontribs).

Indeed, fixed. The different stroke count was not in the Unihan database 4 years ago, and still is not! Robert Ullmann 03:40, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

that is to say

I was about to add this phrase, but I'm not sure of the POS. Is it an adverb? - Algrif 15:19, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

By analogy: "namely" is deemed an adverb. The phrase functions almost identically, like for example, that is, to wit. We're better off to have it entered and get it corrected. Isn't this adverb month? DCDuring 16:18, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. That was my reasoning exactly for asking if adverb was a correct assessment. Perhaps you might be able to improve the basic entry I've made. - Algrif 17:05, 13 December 2007 (UTC)
Looks good. A usage example is always nice, even when it seems trivial. Maybe I'll put in a basic usage note. DCDuring 18:04, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

A name used to sign documents?

What is the word to describe the special name that certain dignitaries use to sign documents instead of their actual name? e.g. The Bishop of Durham signs as Dunelm (or Dunelmensis). nom de plume or pen name don't seem right. SemperBlotto 23:13, 13 December 2007 (UTC)

"Latin signature" would seem to do fine, that's what these usually are. Robert Ullmann 10:43, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

phonoaudiologist or phonotherapist

As a matter of fact, I just want to know whether people have seen or heard one of the above written words or, if not, they have the proper word to define the matter.

Perhaps "speech language pathologist" is what you are looking for?

Similes and idioms

Could similes be categorised as idioms? I've just made the category Category:Similes and wondered if it should be asubcategory of Category:Idioms. I assume so, because e.g. blind as a bat doesn't mean blind as a bat. Also, lpease take a look at Template:simile, which should probably be tweaked. --Keene 13:56, 15 December 2007 (UTC)

I've often thought about adding this cat. My personal thought is that it should be a sub of Category:Idioms. I'm all for using this database in as many constructive ways as possible. I think this is a useful addition. - Algrif 11:26, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

erica

I would like to see how you spell erica in Greek

Έρικα —SaltmarshTalk 09:59, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Indonesian translations of hair

I was doing the Translations of the Week when I noticed that the Indonesian translations for hair looked a bit off. In Malay, rambut refers to hair from the human head; whereas bulu is from anywhere else on the human body, as well as animals, plants and anything else. The Indonesian translations seem to be in reverse.

I've learnt from experience that I'm not qualified to meddle in Indonesian affairs, so could somebody take a look at this? Nestum82 18:50, 16 December 2007 (UTC)

[18] & [19] say bulu = feather. [20] says rambut = hair (head/facial/body). Here are some others thrown in for good measure. [21] & [22] say botak = bald. [23] says tanduk = horn. [24] & [25] say kuku = claw (nail). [26] & [27] say kulit = hide (skin, leather). [28] says gigi = tooth. A Rambutan is a "hairy" fruit. I can't find my Indo dictionary & I'm not a native speaker so I can't explain why it's different from Malaysian. --Thecurran 06:32, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Security Clearance

The initials SAR stand for what in reference to a secret security clearance?

Special Access Required; e.g. the information is compartmented, and only available if someone is "read into" a SAP (Special Access Program), it is more specific than levels 5-6-7 etc. (this is all in reference to the U.S. DoD). Robert Ullmann 10:12, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Himself

I defined it as "The reflexive pronoun for God." but this could be tweaked. Any suggestions? --Keene 10:49, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

just in case

See talk:just in case. --Connel MacKenzie 20:11, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Comments posted. --EncycloPetey 01:56, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

what is a free verse

help what is a free verse!?

See free verse and w:Free verse. --EncycloPetey 01:48, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

Oaxacaner

How is this a plural (plus Oaxacan says that it is not countable...)? Nadando 02:31, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

My template-substitution emulator had a bug. I've added code to skip {{en-adj|-}} (which replaced {{en-adj|-|-}} some time ago.) --Connel MacKenzie 04:01, 18 December 2007 (UTC)
Note that the heading ===Noun===, (not the result of the template substitution,) seems to have caused the bot confusion. --Connel MacKenzie 04:06, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

equivalate

I'd never heard of this, and would have put it down to slang or ignorance if I'd seen it somewhere. But there are plenty of reputable-looking b.google hits, so is this acceptable in the States or should we mark it as {{slang}} or what? It's not in any of my dictionaries either... Widsith 18:39, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Judging by the nature of the g.b.c. hits it can't be slang. It has too wide a range of usage to be jargon. It's not informal, looking at the kind of hits. I don't think it's very common in spoken English in the US. It's also not in MW3, a good source for US usage. If it means someting different from equate (and it might), it might just be a not-too-common word with increasing usage. Equate may imply a more exact correspondence of multiple attributes, where equivalate implies some kind of single all-encompassing dimension of value on which things are equal despite lack of equality on various attributes. Are there other single words that have this meaning. The first cite I found was art historian/critic Bernard Berenson in 1954, but I wasn't looking that hard. DCDuring 15:32, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
It's in MW Online. We might want to think through the five senses we have and see whether they all would pass RfV. DCDuring 15:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

kurundu

Kurundu is a sinhalese ( main language of the sri lankans)term for cinnamon

Synonym for bathroom attendant?

The guys who hang out in the restrooms at fancy restaurants and country clubs with hand towels and the like, is there another word or name for that profession? Even tho we don't yet have an entry for it, Wikipedia has it .- [The]DaveRoss 00:04, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Standard name in the US is restroom attendant. "bathroom" (usually) isn't standard, unless it is an athletics club. Is amusing to watch tourists from the US ask in a restaurant "where is the bathroom"? (you want to take a bath?) They are afraid apparently of the word "toilet". (and "napkin" is even funnier! You want WHAT?!) Oh, and I really like "bog troll". Robert Ullmann 14:16, 21 December 2007 (UTC)
Are you saying that "bathroom" isn't standard in the US? That's news to me. In my experience, the room is called a "bathroom" (and "restroom" is slightly more polite). The "toilet" is the thing you do your business on; I've never heard an American call the room a "toilet", unless it's a portable toilet (more commonly called a portapotty). Mike Dillon 21:16, 24 December 2007 (UTC)
From England: standard term would be cloakroom attendant, both bathroom~ and restroom~ would be rarities here. —SaltmarshTalk 10:05, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
Not "loo lurker"? Pity! LeadSongDog 23:41, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

quay

I would like to merge the two definitions. Although Collins (2005) seeks to differentiate quay as parallel to water's edge (cf pier), others (SOED, Webster, Chambers) do not. —SaltmarshTalk 10:10, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

Go ahead, this is (yet another) case of user CORNELIUSSEON adding in a definition from a US military text, entirely ignoring the fact that the definition is already there. Look at the last version < CORNELIUSSEON's edits. Robert Ullmann 10:16, 23 December 2007 (UTC)
done —SaltmarshTalk 11:45, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

will

This entry seems to need at the very least a sense that does not require intent on an entity's part. As it is, it is guilty of POV: animism. The application of the a word derived from the idea of intent to futurity is possibly an indication of our animist past. In any event, I couldn't find simple futurity without actor and intent. Perhaps I'm missing something. The entry looks like it could stand a look in general. It is too basic a word for me to trust myself to do it properly. DCDuring 12:30, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

It's on my "to do" list. The modal verb form is in fact much more complex than the entry currently given. Also I'm dubious about the willing entry nº2. Is that really from the verb root? We are lacking such items as "moment of decision", "promise", "future event that is beyond one's control", and much more besides. I'll (promise) get a round tuit soon. - Algrif 21:41, 23 December 2007 (UTC)

posh git

I read the term Posh Git in a book. What does it mean? —This comment was unsigned.

Did you consider looking at the definitions for posh and git? SemperBlotto 15:05, 24 December 2007 (UTC)

Tibeaten word

Dzogchen should be added.

meaning: the natural great perfection

Entitled. Most dictionaries, including this one, define "entitled" as the past tense of "entitle," which means "to own, demand or receive something," or, alternatively, "to give a title to."

Titled is defined as the past tense of the word "title," which has a definition of "the name of a book, movie, etc."

I do not think the word "entitled" is synonymous with the word "titled." Yet most speakers and writers seem to use them as if they are synonymous.

For example, I think the sentence, "Mark Twain is the author of a book entitled 'Tom Sawyer,'" is more correctly, "Mark Twain is the author of a book titled 'Tom Sawyer.'"

Which is correct?

entitle also means to give a title to a book, film, play, etc.. I shall add that definition now. Thanks for pointing out the omission. - Algrif 11:13, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

bullcrap

Marked {{US|UK}}. Is that correct? Not elsewhere?—msh210 22:50, 27 December 2007 (UTC)

  • I have never even heard it in the UK - bullshit (or just bull) is quite common. SemperBlotto 23:01, 27 December 2007 (UTC)
  • I've heard it in the UK, but mainly from Americans. Maybe change to {{mostly|US}} --Keene 19:52, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

common misuse of the word "at"

Can someone describe the technical reason why use of the preposition at is incorrect and redundant in a sentence such as "where is he at?" I find that more and more Americans are using this syntax, which sounds so very wrong. Thank you. Diane

I thought that using a preposition at the end of a sentence was incorrect, but when I tried to find that rule in a book on English grammar, I just couldn't. My English teacher, however, did say that it's incorrect to say "Where is he at", but I don't remember if she gave the reason. — [ ric ] opiaterein — 16:39, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
There are no technical reasons why any particular usage is "wrong". Language is continually evolving and any syntactical structure is valid if it communicates what the user means to say. Specifically, Wiktionary is supposed to be descriptive rather than prescriptive, so this may not be the place to ask. SemperBlotto 16:44, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
This is the kind of error up with which I will not put. - To quote Churchill. There is no rule as such. In fact nearly all preposition containing quetions in English place the preposition at the end. E.g. Where are you going to? rather than To where are you going? The Churchill quote was really about breaking up phrasal verbs incorrectly. Personally, I see no problem at all with "where is he at?" - Algrif 16:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
IMHO, it depends on whom you are talking with or writing for. "Where is he at?" is not a part of high-class, "educated" English. It would often be disadvantageous to say in class at school, in many job interviews, in court, and in writing. One very useful thing to learn is how to communicate in the way appropriate to the situation you are in. Because there are many habitual elements of speech, it can be risky to establish a habit of using "Where is he at?" if you hope to operate in the world where people look down on such a trun of phrase. Some people are very good at switching in and out of such different styles of speech. DCDuring 17:09, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Diane's point is not that the preposition is stranded, but that it's redundant. Since He is where? is more proper than *He is at where?, the preposition in *Where is he at? is unnecessary, leaving Where is he? as the proper form of the question. We should probably add a usage note to at or where to explain that the commonly used collocation *where ... at is inappropriate in contexts requiring proper English. Rod (A. Smith) 18:04, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Sorry. I assumed this was a standard US usage. In UK it would be an informal question, not about physical position, rather something like What is he thinking about?. As DCDuring points out, certainly not to be used in a formal situation. - Algrif 18:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)
Interesting. The "what are you thinking" sense was common in the 60s and 70s in the US, has certianly declined, and may be "dated" here now. Knowing that makes me feel old: that's where I'm at. DCDuring 22:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)
In the U.S. also, "where is he at?" can be metaphorical, like in "where is he at in the process?" or "where is he at in the book?". The "what is he thinking about?" sense is news to me, but I'm only 23, so given DCDuring's comment, I guess it just predates me. :-) —RuakhTALK 00:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm not sure it's redundant, per se, since "where" doesn't always imply "at". In modern-day English, "where" can mean "[at] where" ("where is he?"), "[to] where" ("where is he going?"), or neither ("where is he from?"), and for speakers without the "where … at" and "where … to" constructions, it's entirely up to context to distinguish. I'll grant that context is usually sufficient, but there are plenty of constructions where it's so-called "proper English" that objects to context-based determination (e.g. mandating "Are you new here?" instead of "You new here?"); we can hardly pretend that the rules of "proper English" are determined by logic. I do think we should have a usage note, but I think it should be more neutral than what you describe, essentially saying that many speakers have one or both of these constructions, but that many others find them objectionable, considering the prepositions redundant or unnecessary. —RuakhTALK 00:26, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
In slang, "Where's he?" allows for a vague answer: "He gone.". "Where he at?" is more insistent on a specific location. DCDuring 01:19, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
In traditional Newfoundland English usage we find the delightful phrase "Stay where yer to, I'll where yer at" LeadSongDog 23:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

them

  1. Are the two senses really different?
  2. The last example contains "they" not "them". Does this example belong here?

Panda10 21:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

I would say (1) yes (2) no. --EncycloPetey 23:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

Galápagos

Do we prefer Galápagos or Galapagos? Wikipedia likes Galápagos, others dicitonaire prefer the latter to the former.

I would prefer the accent for Spanish, but without for English. Wikipedia tends to preserve original language spelling of proper nouns, whenever possible. --EncycloPetey 20:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)

mought

Can anyone add any history of the word mought. A past tense of may perhaps, or just archaic might? --Keene 02:10, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It seems to be an archaic or dialectical form of might:
--EncycloPetey 02:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I suspect this is eye-dialect rather than archaic. Then again, it could be both. You can still hear this in the north-west UK. - Algrif 13:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It's a past-tense of may (which also makes it a form of might). Interestingly the OED tags it as "now only US dialect". Widsith 19:36, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

manoeuvre and maneuver

There is an instruction in manoeuvre that if you edit this page, add the same modifications to maneuver to keep the two in sync. Can we just point one to the other without duplicating the work? Panda10 03:08, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Not really, no. There is an ongoing debate about how best to handle this, but must editors here agree that we can't simply redirect one to the other, and there are many reasons for this, including the fact that usage of one spelling may be regional, the quotes will be different, etc. --EncycloPetey 03:32, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

brusque

Citations in this entry point to a different page. Is this a current standard? Panda10 13:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

It is, as I understand it, a possible placement of citations. It seems to be almost essential in some of the really long pages where citing multiple senses could really make the page hard to use. I suppose that in some cases the only available citations for RfV don't provide very good usage examples, too. In this particular case, I would argue for bringing the citations back to the main page because the above considerations don't apply. DCDuring 14:24, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
To add to what DCDuring has said: see Wiktionary:Quotations#Subpages. —RuakhTALK 15:45, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
We have recently voted for a new namespace Citations:, and the plan is to shift to a new system of citations placement. This changeover has stalled, but the general idea is that all citations should appear on the related citations subpage, with selected examples remaining on the main entry. However, there should always be a Quotations section header on the main entry, and not just a link as on the brusque page. See parrot for an example that is well-formatted under the old way of doing things. The only change that will need to happen is shifting the Citations page into the new namespace (which needs to happen to all such pages). --EncycloPetey 16:28, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. I noticed you added the Quotations section. Another thing: it seems that the brusque/Citations page cannot be edited. If I compare it to parrot/Citations, there should be another edit button for the subsection. Panda10 17:00, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I don't have that problem. Could it be something in your preferences, or caching? DCDuring 17:43, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Not sure. I have not really changed the default preferences. When I click the edit link that is on the same level as the head word "Citations of brusque", I get this: "No such section. You tried to edit a section that doesn't exist. Since there is no section 1, there's no place to save your edit. Return to Template:Citation". Panda10 17:53, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Yeah, we need to fix that. (It's a consequence of putting the header in a template: the edit-link tries to edit the template, and finds the template doesn't actually have sections.) —RuakhTALK 17:59, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

apparent

I don't really see a difference between the first two senses at apparent; at least, I can't imagine a use of apparent in the first sense that's not also in the second sense.

Also, I just added a usage note; input/corrections/tweaks/whatnot would be nice, if anyone has any. :-)

RuakhTALK 17:57, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

The first sense is "physically or tangibly visible", the second sense is "figuratively apparent, perceivable by the mind". A motive can be "apparent" in the second sense without being physically seen by the eye. --EncycloPetey 19:18, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
O.K., I think I see what you're saying, thanks. But then, the Milton quote seems to be mis-sorted, as it's the mind that perceives the moon to be queen. (I don't think Milton is trying to say, "Oh yeah, and the moon? A queen. And not invisible. Imagine that!") I'm not sure it's actually worth separating the two senses. —RuakhTALK 19:41, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
The Milton quote is iffy. He could mean that the moon is currently visible (sense 1) or is obvious ruler (sense 2). It's always worthwhile to sort a literal sense from a figurative one, sense those will often have different synonyms or translations, and will mean different things to English learners. --EncycloPetey 19:47, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Perhaps I should RFV sense 1? If we can find any quotes that clearly belong to sense 1 and not sense 2, perhaps those quotes will make the situation more clear. —RuakhTALK 20:37, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I've added a quote from the Encyclopaedia Brittanica for sense 1. - Algrif 13:40, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, but that's actually a cite for sense 3. :-/ —RuakhTALK 14:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
How about something like It became more apparent to everyone that he was crying. ? - Algrif 12:46, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Reading Roman numerals

How does one read Roman numerals? As for example Henry VIII - is he Henry the Eighth or Henry Eight? Is the rule always the same or does it depend? It would be nice, if someone found the time to write a usage note about this e.g. in the article Roman numeral. Hekaheka 21:44, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

No, there isn't a standard way to read them, because sometimes they stand for a cardinal number like 2007 (A.D. MMVII) or 17 (page xvii), and other times they represent an ordinal number like eighth (Henry VIII) or second (John Paul II). --EncycloPetey 21:58, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Compare primus versus unum. LeadSongDog 23:48, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Lombard rate

There are 165 g.b.c. hits for Lombard rates in the plural. I have been instructed that this is a proper noun and that there are no plurals. How should I interpret that mass of evidence? "The Lombard rate" is the single rate that is quoted at any one point in time, but authors compare them. DCDuring 23:02, 30 December 2007 (UTC)

Can you give examples of its use in the plural? The definition will need to be changed if this is not a proper noun, because the current definition is suitable only for a proper noun. --EncycloPetey 23:05, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
I have changed the def. to reflect its being a generic term for the rate charged on loans to banks backed by approved collateral. The German rate might deserve special mention because of its influence. I find it hard to swallow that any such rates deserve to be deemed proper nouns. They may be capitalized by convention, but they are discussed in the plural regularly, esp. by economists and financial writers. The capital L in Lombard is only attributable to the historical importance of an Italian banking family in the Renaissance, just as the capital F in Fed funds rate is atributable the US Federal Reserve Bank. One thing I thought I had learned here is the weak connection between something being capitalized and being used as a proper noun. I will pursue what other references say about the term in current financial practice. DCDuring 23:39, 30 December 2007 (UTC)
Did some research and edited the article accordingly adding specific reference to Bundesbank and noting that the rate has been discontinued after introduction of euro and Bundesbank becoming a branch of the European Central Bank. I did not (at least yet) have the energy to find out the names of corresponding central bank rates in UK and US. The existence of plural seems evident to me. Other languages do not capitalize Lombard as it seems to be derived from the Italian province of Lombardia and not from a single banking family. Hekaheka 06:15, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I haven't checked, but surely one can compare the Lombard rates between different months or years, etc. - Algrif 14:07, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Ah, but there you're comparing temporally, and all bets are off that a plural implies anything. You can talk about all the Vaticans through the ages, but that doesn't mean Vatican isn't a proper noun. The existence of a possible plural form doesn't tell you whether or not a noun is proper; though the lack or rarity can be a tantalizing hint. --EncycloPetey 17:03, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yes, of course. "Lombard rates" yields almost 4000 Google hits, relevant-looking stuff. Hekaheka 14:37, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
That's what some of the books on g.b.c. do. They also mention broad trends that involved multiple central banks all raising their Lombard rates. To me it seems obvious that such a thing would be countable, even if there were only one rate at a particular point in time.
I'm also not sure that the singular Bundesbank Lombard rate ever could have been characterized as a proper noun, even if it might have been entirely capitalized in a Bundesbank press release. But the question of plurals of proper names is only a matter of degree. I also think it would be useful if Wiktionary could inform people how to pluralize names {Cathys or Cathies?, Marys or Maries?). As with ordinary noun plurals, it is really only important where the plural can be irregular. DCDuring 14:51, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I think that is best handled through an Appendix (already in progress), since the "plural" of a proper noun (1) is relatively rare, and (2) isn't itself a proper noun. --EncycloPetey 17:05, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I'm stil not too clear about these assertions. If I make a Google map search for London, USA I get 9 Londons. Should this read "9 londons" then? - Algrif 14:10, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure I understand your question, but you could say that "I searched on Google and found nine Londons." This does not mean that "Londons" should be given as the "plural" on the London entry. Especially since London is a proper noun, but in the sentence above "Londons" is a plural common noun. Proper nouns typically do not have plurals that are proper nouns, and the plural form is typically rare as well. The reason for suggestion an Appendix, then, is to avoid having this kind of confusion on every single entry page for a proper noun, with constant questions from people who've found a "plural" proper noun and can't quite figure it out. Making proper nouns "plural" is a general phenomenon in English, but a relatively rare and grammatically odd phenomenon. --EncycloPetey 16:11, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, EP. You understood me correctly. OK, so this is a grammatical nomenclature problem. In that case, I'm all for the appendix if it will help to avoid confusion on main entry pages. - Algrif 13:26, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

FYI: Lombard rate is just another name for a "short-term lending rate applied by a central bank to other financial institutions". Some central banks have used it, and the best known of them was the Bundesbank. Other central banks have chosen to use other names. Currently at least the Swiss and Czech still use the term Lombard rate. IMHO, in this context Lombard is like "French" in "French kiss". French kiss is not a proper noun and there are French kisses, aren't there? Hekaheka 17:02, 9 January 2008 (UTC) PS. I just noticed that french kiss is not capitalized in Wiktionary although in many other dictionaries it is. Maybe we should decapitalize lombard? Hekaheka 17:07, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

bad

Etymology 2 reads: "Intentionally incorrect". I was not aware of intention being part of etymology. Beneath are:

  1. Noun: "fault", as in "sorry, my bad." This seems to me to be a simple use of an adj as a noun within the same general sense as the basic adjective "bad".
  2. Adj: "slang; fantastic", i.e., very good. The conversion of the meaning of a word to its opposite in slang isn't all that unusual, is it? Is there a name for this phenomenon?

The noun seems to belong in Etymology 1. I would have thought that the slang adj does too. Is there anything marker used for that kind of reversal of sense? DCDuring 12:19, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

It's fun when you see an etymology and instantly know which editor wrote it. :-)   I think "Intentionally incorrect" could be part of an etymology — e.g. at O.K. — but I don't know if it applies here. (The editor did not supply any evidence or references for his claim.) Even if these are in fact "[originally] intentionally incorrect" usages, though, I think they warrant separate etymology sections, as they're clearly separate incorrections. —RuakhTALK 16:35, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Because our format for "Etymology 2" (and 3...) puts potentially common senses so far down the page, I wish we would avoid separating them unless absolutely necessary. These senses could clearly be worked in under the first Etymology, and if needed, an extra couple words added to accomodate any new information. Similar reconstituting needs to happen at cracker and font (etym. 3), among others. -- Thisis0 14:34, 2 January 2008 (UTC)
So the idea would be reflect the "branching" from the original ety of "bad" as a separate ety, presumably referring to the original unknown ety of "bad". Is there a name for the reversal of meaning from "bad" (std., bad) to "bad" (slang, very good)? It certainly isn't irony. It seems to reflect a deliberate attempt to create a way of communicating that doesn't allow members of the white and/or adult culture to understand. This can't be the only instance of it. Is there a name for the use of an adjective as a noun? That would seem also seem a fairly likely occurence. DCDuring 17:49, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Arab

This entry contains a Hungarian section which is not correct. The word is written with small case in Hungarian (arab). I would like to start a new entry for that. I discovered this when I tried to add the new hu-adj and hu-noun templates to Arab, but that immediately displayed the words with a capital. --Panda10 16:42, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

  • Try it again under arab (was an old redirect). SemperBlotto 16:45, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
I have just created arab for the Hungarian entry. It did not exist before even after your change. How can I delete the Hungarian section from Arab? Also, maybe a redirect should be added to arab pointing to Arab. I've seen that in other entries. I don't think I can add redirects. --Panda10 16:54, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
We just add the {{see}} template to the top of the page, and list it in the translations. The Hungarian section of Arab should simply de deleted with an edit summary of "content moved to arab". --EncycloPetey 16:59, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Done it already. SemperBlotto 17:08, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

perspicacious

Are these two senses really distinct?

  1. Having the power of seeing or understanding clearly; quick-sighted; sharp-sighted.
  2. (figuratively) Of acute discernment; keen; mentally perceptive.

I can't perceive any real difference betwen them. --EncycloPetey 21:12, 31 December 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps "or understanding" was a late addition to the 1st sense. If so, it might have once been sense 1 relating to vision, sense to relating to figurative vision or understanding. That would be a nice way of expressing a possible drift in meaning from literal to figurative meaning, though that might have already happened in Old French or in Latin. DCDuring 22:38, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Yup, 2.3 years old edit made just that change. I will correct it. DCDuring 23:36, 31 December 2007 (UTC)
Thanks. --EncycloPetey 17:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

January 2008

how do u use the word naive in a sentence?

do any of ya'll noe how to use the word naive in a sentence? -- unsigned

Here's where a combination of Google and Wikisource can help out. Click on this link for lots of non-copyrighted example sentences. -- A-cai 10:23, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

right as rain

This phrase functions as an adjective and an adverb. It did not show any comparative or superlative. The phrase "righter than rain" would appear to be functionally equivalent to the missing comparative and has 19 raw g.b.c. hits. Should it be presented as such in the inflection line? I do not think that there is a superlative. This phenomenon would, I think, characterize almost all adjectival phrases that are similes. A scan of the cat list for similes and quick g.b.c. check suggests that such forms occur in the wild. DCDuring 16:46, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

No superlative that I can find, and the comparative is so utterly rare, it might be better to refer it to a Usage notes section. Certainly a comment about the rarity of the comparative is worthwhile, at a minimum. I'd be curious to see this used as an adverb, since I can't think of an example sentence. Do you have a quotation? --EncycloPetey 17:02, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
Off the top of my head, I remember something like: "Next morning, he came right as rain."
I have found that many comparatives and superlatives and plurals are not common, but attestable. 19 g.b.c hits is a lot more than many of our entries get. If rarity were a criterion, then we should alter the en-adj template to facilitate the suppression of superlatives, which seem to be quite rate for many adjectives.
User:Keene suggested presentation under "Related terms" on the grounds that it is not a true comparative form. The rule for transforming the phrase into the phrase that functions as comparative is certainly more elaborate than adding merely -er or more, but broadly applicable. What makes a functional comparative form a "true" comparative form? DCDuring 17:35, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I hear it in things like:
You've been under the weather lately, but now you look right as rain.
I'm righter than rain! I just won the contest! I'm rich!
Or somesuch... Regards, —Celestianpower háblame 17:43, 1 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't think "righter than rain" is a comparative of "right as rain", since *"John and Mary were both right as rain, but John was righter than rain than Mary" does not strike me as even remotely plausible. And google:"righter than rain than" seems to agree with me. —RuakhTALK 00:42, 3 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, if you put it that way, sure. I don't even need Google to see the error of my ways. I neglected the fairly obvious need to compare to something to have a valid comparative. I often get confused with phrases. Which is an instance of why the Phrase header is best replaced with something that clarifies! Thanks for the tea. DCDuring 00:52, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

pickle

What does the word pickle mean?

Did you look at the page for pickle? --EncycloPetey 20:09, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Relationship of Declunus/declunus to Delancey/DeLancey/Delancy/DeLancy

I in wonder and ofcourse some research of this topic words and or names are Declunus a God and a Goddess Decluna my wonder is the Language of it ,could it be in relation to DeLancey, as sometimes letters are silent in such would be perhaps the c in declunus in variant portions of time and literature and when as far back as the period of the fourth king or rular of roman peoples this is in the time of the 3rd or fourth hundred B.C. the sound of the u is manufactured as is today though sounding differently as the first u perhaps is different from the second u, i shall continue at another time Thank You,2:44 p.m. David George DeLancey 2:37 P.M. E.S.T. 1-2-2008 Happy New Year.

I don't think we have entries for the proper names or Celtic deities, though we probably should. Perhaps we have something at Declan. DCDuring 20:24, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

nonology

Several nonce words formed by analogy with trilogy have their own entries at Wiktionary (like duology and tetralogy). The problem with nonology is that an incorrect number-suffix has been used. Unlike these other entries, this suffix has a Latin rather than a Greek origin. If the word with the form and meaning desired by the author existed, it would be something like ennealogy. As far as I can tell "nonology" is a figment of someone's imagination - certainly I can find no precedent from Google or Google Books - but I'm not really sure what happens in such situations. --81.105.65.138 21:03, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Usually the procedure is to bring up at WT:RFV for discussion any entry you think has none of what you call precedent.—msh210 23:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

Assembly language

Should this be moved to Assembly Language?—msh210 23:39, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I think it is assembly language except when it refers to the assembly language of a specific processor in which case it might be (e.g.) 8086 Assembly Language (however, since assembly langauges are NOT unique to each processor but rather to each assembler it might not even be capitalized in that case). RJFJR 13:40, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

alarum'd

Macbeth Act II, Scene I

Now o'er the one half-world Nature seems dead, and wicked dreams abuse The curtain'd sleep; witchcraft celebrates Pale Hecate's offerings; and wither'd Murther, Alarum'd by his sentinel, the wolf, Whose howl's his watch, thus with his stealthy pace, With Tarquin's ravishing strides, towards his design Moves like a ghost.

Is that a use of alarum as a verb? RJFJR 01:09, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah. Alarum is just an old spelling of alarm (as a noun or a verb), which has stayed around for some reason as a deliberate archaism. Widsith 22:46, 4 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it certainly is. Robert Ullmann 22:50, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

Should the noun be marked archaic or something and the verb added with templates for archaic and maybe also rare? RJFJR 19:08, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

That sounds perfectly reasonable. --Thecurran 02:00, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Tour de force

It is strange and interesting how foreign expressions may have different meanings in different languages by which they have been adopted. "Tour de force" is a French expression meaning "feat of strength", and in English it means more or less the same as in French. It is a positive connotation of something if it is a tour de force (it manifests strength, brilliancy etc.). However in Italian "tour de force" means something very different: a tour de force is an endeavour (a job, a travel, a visit, a walk for Christmas' shopping...) which proves or is expected to prove particularly stressful, because it involves doing many things or one difficult thing in a short amount of time. Something of the French meaning is preserved: it takes strength to accomplish such a thing. But the implication is that, were it possible, a tour de force is something to be avoided. Nor is there anything necessarily admirable in a tour de force, as when (e.g.) a tour de force is made necessary by our failure to schedule appropriately. Nor, again, is a tour de force necessarily coronated by success. It is to be wondered about how the Italian meaning came to be what it is. I also wonder whether my understanding is only partial, and other Italians actually give the expression a meaning similar to the French or the English one.

leishminiasis.

I ran across this word, I think it some type of disease because the references I found included disease vectors from Golden Hamsters (1986) and a news article about a 2 year old boy being treated for "jungle borne leishminiasis."

Thanks! —This unsigned comment was added by 198.88.216.101 (talk).

You probably mean leishmaniasis. Widsith 22:39, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

killfilter

Is this the same as a kill file? Or is it a verb? SemperBlotto 22:54, 4 January 2008 (UTC)

It seems to be a noun, and yes, it seems to be the same as a kill file. —RuakhTALK 03:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)
Our definition for kill file reads "A file in which individual users of newsgroups can ignore postings by certain other users, or that match certain criteria". Huh? I can ignore postings in a file? So this obviously needs a touch-up. But I'm not sure what to change it to. I would have changed it to something like "A file containing data about e-mail senders and/or Usenet posters, used with a filtering program to prevent a user from seeing those senders' and posters' messages". But now I'm not sure, since you say it's the same as killfilter, which I would have guessed (not familiar with it) means "A filtering program used in conjunction with a kill file to prevent a user from seeing certain senders' e-mail messages and/or Usenet posts". But you say that the two nouns mean the same thing: which meaning do they have, then?—msh210 17:31, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

convention

The first definition at convention is

  1. The gerund (verbal noun) of to convene; a meeting or a gathering.

Should this be split into two senses or otherwise clarified? RJFJR 14:54, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes. That first portion should be placed in the etymology, the definition could certainly be written more clearly. --EncycloPetey 15:51, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

short

The second sense of the Adjective section contains this example: “Tater” is short for “potato”. Is "short" in this sentence really an adjective? --Panda10 12:54, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

If you take the position of looking at the individual words as separate, then yes. The word short would be a predicable adjective (one that occurs in the predicate, after the verb, but modifies the subject). On the other hand, you could argue that be short for is a compound verb. --EncycloPetey 15:23, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

police

I am thinking of adding military police, mounted police, and riot police. Question is... would they be considered to be SoP's? I would be interested to hear opinions before adding them. - Algrif 15:03, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

Mounted police is certainly O.K. I'd also say military police is probably O.K., since if you didn't know what it meant you might assume it referred to a group that doubled as both military and police in some respect (e.g., soldiers acting as peace-keepers or something). I'm really not sure about riot police; to me it seems quite straightforward, but perhaps not? —RuakhTALK 15:18, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
They seem idiomatic to me, both on simple introspection and because they are more than SoP, describing certain dedicated kinds of officers rather than attributes of a police officer at a particular moment.
  • Military police are not just police who happen to be in the military; the conscripts who handle traffic and crowd control in Korea, for instance, are definitely not military police.
  • If a riot breaks out unexpectedly, the police on the scene will not become riot police; instead they will probably call in the riot police.
  • A police officer who commandeers a horse in order to catch a criminal does not become a member of the mounted police by so doing, although he will soon wish that he had been trained as one.
Anyway that's how I see it... but I could also see each of these leading to yet another pitched battle on RfD. I'm afraid we haven't found the magic pill for that yet. -- Visviva 15:22, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Sound reasoning. Unlike traffic police, who would be just any old policeman assigned to traffic duty. I think I'll add them and put your comments into the talk pages. Thanks - Algrif 16:17, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
They would certainly belong. We already have Water Police and I'm sure there are others.--Dmol 16:35, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, and shore patrol which is clearly not SoP. Robert Ullmann 17:11, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
Should these be capitalised, as Water Police is. I had listed it as a proper noun, being the name of that department, but others seem to be in lower case. --Dmol 18:57, 6 January 2008 (UTC)
No. Lower case. I've moved the capped page to water police. - Algrif 19:02, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

gun

Is the Dutch pronunciation correct? IPA is given as /xyn/ --Keene 18:29, 6 January 2008 (UTC)

It's close, and possible correct. Dutch g is a guttural gargling sound. Dutch has gone through several spelling reforms designed to restructure spelling to match pronunciation, so each letter (or letter cluster) usually represents a particular sound. If the Dutch phonology page on Wikipedia is accurate, then the Dutch word gun should be pronounced IPA(No language code specified.): ɣʏn, which isn't far off what appears in the page now. The notes in the 'pedia article suggest that IPA(No language code specified.): xʏn would be correct for the dialect of Amsterdam, which is ever closer. --EncycloPetey 03:41, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Gerard recorded his pronunciation and uploaded it to commons:, (now linked) if that helps. --Connel MacKenzie 18:20, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, it does. I've adjusted the page to IPA(No language code specified.): ɣʏn accordingly. --EncycloPetey 02:58, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

disassociate

To beat a dead horse...

This form is pretty universally proscribed in deference to dissociate, right? But it clearly meets our CFI. What's the best way (in the current atmosphere) of indicating this?

--Connel MacKenzie 17:17, 7 January 2008 (UTC)

If this is used for all senses of dissociate, and proscribed for all of them, then I'd say to use # {{proscribed}} {{form of|Form|dissociate}} or # {{misspelling of|dissociate}}.—msh210 17:53, 7 January 2008 (UTC)
It's not proscribed at all, just less common. Widsith 09:54, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
The OED has disassociate as a synonym of dissociate, without even a frown! dbfirs 00:42, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
MW3 has a weak implied negative take on disassociate. At "disassociate" they offer "dissociate" as a synonym, but don't have the much longer entry for "dissociate" return the favor. They also offer fewer relatives for "disassociate" than for "dissociate". All this without any explicit proscription. DCDuring 01:12, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

You could have knocked me down with a feather

Yes. Another one of those entries. What is the general opinion:-

  1. Interjection, with the sentence as written?
  2. Phrase, with the sentence as written?
  3. Verb, with knock one down with a feather? (Yuk!!) - Algrif 12:25, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
Sum of parts meaning exactly what it says (using exaggeration, of course, but so what?). Don't create. That said, if it is to be created, then: It can't be under knock one down with a feather, as only common use (that I know of) concerns the ability to knock, the act of knocking. Yet be able to knock someone down with a feather also seems (very) wrong. (I hate to criticize suggestions without offering one, but I haven't got one, assuming this deserves some entry.)—msh210 21:05, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
"... assuming this deserves some entry" - I know what you mean, however the problem is that you only find it as an idiomatic way of saying, I was overwhelmingly surprised. If someone who does not know that comes across it, it would be difficult to guess from the parts. Context might not always be very helpful. What happens in most examples is that it appears as a kind of interjection. So when he told me he was getting married, well, you could have knocked me down with a feather. - Algrif 13:11, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
Very well.—msh210 17:09, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

shirr

From User talk:SemperBlotto:

You wrote: to bake eggs in their shells. Are you sure? A quick web search seems to disagree (although Web pages disagree with one another also). Perhaps there's more than one definition?—msh210 17:56, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

  • Ah - The American Heritage Dictionary says "To cook (unshelled eggs) by baking until set.". Perhaps we disagree on what unshelled means: I take it to mean "not shelled", but perhaps they mean "with the shells removed"! The OED says "To poach (eggs) in cream instead of water". Feel free to modify/correct as you see fit (especially if you are American). SemperBlotto 18:03, 8 January 2008 (UTC)
    • I am American but have never seen shirred eggs, nor heard the word. I only know it from books and and from Googling it in connection with the instant discussion. Any objection if I copy-paste this discussion to the TR?—msh210 18:12, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

End of quotation from User talk:SemperBlotto.

        • By "unshelled eggs", the AHD means eggs removed from the shells. Synonyms include baked eggs and eggs en cocotte. They are similar to poached eggs. You pour the eggs into ramekins and bake at about 350°F for 8 to 10 minutes. —Stephen 00:15, 9 January 2008 (UTC)
          But you forget, then you put them on spinach, and cover with Mornay sauce. (The very first serious dish I was taught to cook. ;-) Can sometimes mean poached. Robert Ullmann 12:51, 10 January 2008 (UTC)

Just an aside: the OED gives both of these meanings of "unshelled" (as the past tense and past participle of the verb "to unshell", meaning "to remove the shell(s) from", and as an adjective meaning "not shelled"). Such words are called "auto-antonyms" (or "Janus words", or "contronyms", among other names) and Wikipedia has an article on them and a list of such words. — Paul G 21:16, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

I've added "unshelled" to Wikipedia's list. — Paul G 21:26, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

German prost, Swedish prosit

The etymologies in both articles are worded in a say that makes it look like two Latin words were borrowed individually into each language where a new word was then created. It seems much more likely that there was already a Latin phrase which was borrowed as a unit. — Hippietrail 02:14, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

bonus/bonum

Just about the only Latin I know is through reading etymologies in dictionaries, so I'm not up on when the various cases need to be used. I know that the nominative is used for the subject and the accusative for the object, but does this apply when the verb is "to be"? In Modern Greek it is not — the subject and object are both in the nominative when the verb is "to be", so I am wondering whether the same is true of Latin.

Specifically, I want to know how to translate the phrase "God is good" into Latin for a project I'm working on — is it "Deus est bonum" or "Deus est bonus"? Further, I believe that word order is not important in Latin because subject and object can be deduced from their declensions, but if the cases are the same, how can this be done, and does this mean that the word order must be restricted to subject, verb, object when the verb is "to be"? I ask because I would really like to be able to put "est" at the end of the sentence.

Incidentally, all of these phrases appear on the web, with "Deus est bonum" getting the most Google hits, so I would imagine that "Deus bonum est" is OK.

Thanks for any help. — Paul G 20:51, 9 January 2008 (UTC)

The sentence is grammatically correct for Latin, as you have guessed. The issue here is not whether you should use the nominative or accusative (nominative is correct), but whether you are using deus as a masculine or neuter noun. The sentence Deus bonum est. is using a neuter subject. If you are referring to the Christian deity, you want Deus bonus est. to have a masculine subject. --EncycloPetey 02:12, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for that, EncycloPetey. I am referring to the Christian deity ("God") rather than any old deity ("god"), so masculine it is. — 217.46.147.13 18:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

worth

As what PoS is "worth" being used in an expression like "more worth having"? DCDuring 01:31, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Probably adjective, but Ican't be certain from the incomplete example you've given. --EncycloPetey 02:08, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm guessing he means something like "Friendshipi is more worth having ___i than money [is]", i.e. roughly "If forced to choose, I'd rather have friendship than money." I agree that it's an adjective, but it's an interesting one in that it takes a directly construed nominal as an obligatory complement (as in "worth + nominal"); I can't think of any other English adjectives that do that. —RuakhTALK 02:58, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Didn't mean to be so ter. yes to above. Maybe I can think of another similar word. I was interested to correctly putting in PoS for its comparability. 15-20% of adjs. deemed comparable have proven not to be. end of. DCDuring 03:15, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
According to dictionary.com, it is a preposition, "having" being a verbal noun (or gerund, if you prefer). "Worth" is not comparable; that is, you can't put "more" in front of it, so "Friendship is more worth having than money" is not grammatically correct. You need to rephrase your sentence as either "Having friendship is worth more than having money" or "It is worth more to have friendship than to have money." — Paul G 18:30, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
Hm, I hadn't read the usage notes at worth. If it is an adjective, then it should be comparable as described, but this gives the difficulties Ruakh has identified. Should we be saying it as a preposition after all? — Paul G 18:28, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I am aware that the bard is no authority on grammar, but:
  • The Winter's Tale, Page 157, 1887 ed.
    Fore your Queen died, she was more worth such gazes / Than what you look on now.
Other authors using the construction include Lord Chesterfield, Fielding, Walpole, Browning, Chesterton, Barrie, Emerson, Pound, Sherwood Anderson. I think we need to find the grammar that justifies this widespread use in many well-known works.
Fowler spends 2.5 columns on this, mostly on the need for exactly one "object", including: "The important fact is that the adjective worth requires what is most easily described as an object." He explicit mentions the non-incorrectness of using the construction with a gerund, but prefers the infinitive. DCDuring 19:11, 11 January 2008 (UTC)
I can't see any reason to believe it is functioning as a preposition in any of the examples above, in part because there is no other preposition that I can find to replace it yet retain a grammatical sentence. My Webster's says that worth is a noun, adjective, and auxiliary verb. I'm not sure, but this could be an auxiliary verb usage (which actually has a separate etymology for the noun/adjective). --EncycloPetey 01:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
Here is something old interesting in support of the notion of worth as a preposition. Also MW3 calls it a preposition and labels both of worth's adjectival senses as archaic. The Internet Grammar includes "worth" in its class of "marginal prepositions" with "minus", "granted", and a few other words derived from verbs. I have not net found any authority that deals with the awkward fact of fairly common usage of the comparative "more worth [present participle] than ....".
Judging from all this, I can see that I am unlikely to come up with any other word that is quite like "worth".
EP: I see what you mean about the auxilary verb, but it doesn't seem to have the "value" meaning and still doesn't explain the comparative. "More" doesn't seem to modify the participle, it seems to modify "worth". "worth [present participle]" seems to form an adjective without obvious restrictions on the nature of the participle. Any verb that reflects anything that consumes time or resources can be more or less "worthy". DCDuring 04:46, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
The OED is unequivocal: as well as being a noun and a verb, "worth" is an adjective, not a preposition. The OED's lexicographers know their stuff, so I think we are safe to go with their view. — Paul G 09:56, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I finally found the CGEL coverage of this issue. It's in a footnote on page 1407. Apparently, they too find no other words that function as worth does in this capacity. This is in the section on extraposition, and has the examples:
  • In discussing the future it is also worth considering the impact on Antarctica...
  • It was stupid telling my parents.
  • It was stupid to tell my parents.
The point they make is that worth is the only word in English that requires use of the gerund/participial in this construction, while other words may take an infinitive instead. The portion following worth (or stupid in the example above) is a clause/phrase functioning as the subject of the sentence. Extraposition places the subject in a somewhat unusual location, but it is still the subject of the sentence. --EncycloPetey 17:30, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
This unique construction is worth analysing without including complications like the use of "it", as in the cases CGEL provides. In the immediately preceding sentence, for example, the participle does not seem to be the subject. I'd love to find a comment on the comparative uses, too! I think someone has written an article about characterizing worthy as a preposition, but I couldn't suss out their conclusion from reading the one teaser page I had access to. DCDuring 18:16, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Not the subject? Depends on how you read it. In the sentence: "This unique construction is worth analysing", I see analysing as the subject participle, with an object of "this unique contruction", then a predicate linking verb and adjective. Extraposition puts the elements in a non-standard order. That's not the only way this could be interpreted (as you have noted another way yourself), but that's the way I would personally interpret the grammar. In any case, "worth" is uniquely weird. --EncycloPetey 02:04, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
How do you finish the analysis, then? "Analysing this unique construction is worth[X]" "Worth" still wants something. Possibilities include: "-y", "-while", " the effort", " the time", etc.. From the discussions here, I am under the impression that the old grammarian's ploy of saying that there is something "understood", but omitted, is no longer considered to be playing fair or modern or post-modern or .... Conceptually or metaphorically, the idea of worth implies a kind of balancing of labor and/or time against the value gained by the costly activity reflected in the verb. But the grammar shouldn't be so dependent on the semantic content, should it? DCDuring 02:24, 18 January 2008 (UTC)

cast

This can have casted as a past. I figure that some meanings use cast as past, others use casted and I assume others can use either as past. How best to show this? --Keene 12:14, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

I would tend to favor usage notes, although marking individual definitions is also an option. From a cursory look at b.g.c., disregarding a handful of transparent errors, casted seems to be used only where a physical cast is involved -- i.e. in medicine, metallurgy, and construction. These seem like they ought to be etymologically separate from the "throw" meanings, in which case there would be no problem, but apparently that is not the case.
BTW, note that casted is also an adjective from caste. -- Visviva 14:53, 12 January 2008 (UTC)
I think you need:
  1. an indication on each sense line that can use the "casted" form for the past and past participle
  2. the variants in the inflection line and
  3. an explanation of anything else in the usage note.
I don't know that I have ever seen a really attractive example of how to do this and can't even remember any particular example of anything similar being done other than pluralization, which doesn't usually need (or, rather, get) the usage note. It would be a little easier if we had groupings and hierarchies of senses. DCDuring 15:25, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

fallen

Noun. "The fallen". There are two senses that I am not familiar with, but don't seem too much of a stretch semantically, but do grammatically:

  1. "the Devil". I could successfully imagine "the fallen one", but not "the fallen" for this.
  2. "an evil spirit". I can imagine this as referring to all of the evil spirits who have fallen, but not one at a time.
I think that the fallen is really "plurale tantum", but these senses have stopped me. I have added two senses for casualties, which might be combinable. DCDuring 21:01, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

walk-on

I extended this a bit, but I am unsure of my wording, please someone have a look at it. H. (talk) 17:03, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

Not bad, IMHO. I'm less happy with the pre-existing college athlete sense, because it happens in professional sports too and may generalize to settings beyond sports and entertainment. Using Google Books to find the range of uses can be fun. DCDuring 17:42, 13 January 2008 (UTC)
Walk-on has an adjective sense too - he had a walk-on part in the movie.. --Keene 14:29, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
This reminds me of a recent part-of-speech discussion where editors were trying to determine whether these "borrowed" and "attributive use" words really became the part of speech they appeared to function as. "A walk-on part" may seem adjectival, but it really just creates a noun phrase. Try adding another adjective and you'll see what I mean. "A memorable walk-on part." You can't say "A walk-on memorable part," nor can you say "His part was both memorable and walk-on." This word is linked inseperably as part of a noun phrase. Take a lesson from German language. They would make one word out of it: "Hiz memorabl valkonpart." Final thought - my trusty old encyclopedia dictionary defines walk-on n. A performer having a very small part; also, the part. -- It seems they understand this is somehow a noun sense. (side note: See how "encyclopedia" in "trusty old encyclopedia dictionary" seems like an adjective? In this similar case, it may be easier to see how it is indeed not an adjective.) However, determining how to properly label this common type of language effectively is surely one of our current wikt-enigmas. -- Thisis0 19:05, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I think I agree with you. I am loath to create an adj PoS just to cover noun-as-adjective usage. My personal rule has been to enter the Adjective PoS if the adjectival use can be made comparative.
It doesn't have to be able to be made comparative - we have loads of uncomparable adjectives. Here walk-on behaves just like dairy. There are noun and adjectival meanings. --Keene 19:30, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Yes, just like dairy. The phrases "dairy plant", "dairy products", and "dairy cow" have no real adjectives. "Large dairy plant", "tainted dairy products", and "black-and-white dairy cow", however, do. Just try flipping any of those words; they do not function the same. Dairy, like so many others, is listed here with adjective (and sometimes adverb) senses because that's currently the best way to make sense out of this usage. A better way is what is up for debate. -- Thisis0 20:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I just find that adjectival meanings for entries that also have related noun PoS very often seem to me to be derived from the noun senses. I can slice noun senses very finely, but have trouble seeing adjective senses DCDuring 19:55, 15 January 2008 (UTC).
As to the word-sequence argument, however, I am not sure that I would agree with you. We can say "pretty, red rose" much more easily than "red, pretty rose". [OK, you might say, red could be a noun.] We can say "tall, leafless tree" more easily than "leafless, tall tree" or "interesting, technical book" more easily than "technical, interesting book". That doesn't make "leafless" or "technical" nouns. DCDuring 19:23, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
You have to slow down a bit. You are arguing a preference for word order, while I am giving examples of words that seem to function as adjectives, but are not. Though a writer may have a clear preference, there is no impossibility with "leafless, tall tree" or "red, pretty rose". Red does not become part of a noun phrase in "pretty, red rose" like it does in "delicious red wine", "loud red alert", "tasty red beans and rice", and "several red blood cells". Those are examples where 'red' joins the noun phrase and is inseperably linked. Try flipping any of those; you'll see. As far as "technical", it could be either depending on context. Remains adjective: "It's an interesting, technical book." further example, adjective Becomes part of noun phrase: "That was the most interesting technical book I've ever read." further example, noun phrase -- Thisis0 20:42, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I was only addressing one clause in one sentence: your argument from word order about "memorable walk-on part" being preferred to "walk-on memorable part". You provided only two tests for the characterization of a noun-noun collocation as making a unit noun phrase. I don't buy this first as conclusive. As to the second, I have heard it used either humorously to good effect or clumsily to bad. Accordingly, the second would be the test I would run on my "ear". My analytical skills in this area aren't very good, so my "ear", research, and reference are what I need to rely on. It seems to me that you are also relying on a further analysis that seems to depend a great deal on the possible semantics of a subset of the meanings of walk-on. I am more interested in whether there are simple, reliable, arguement-stopping tests that do not depend as much on the semantics. If not, then we will have to have more tea-room discussions about specific words. DCDuring 22:40, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
I understand your desire for a proper "test" or definition. When I demonstrated an inseparable word order, it wasn't meant as an "ear test" -- judging by it "sounding right" -- but rather, it's a simple demonstration of how these particular words cannot be separated from the noun like adjectives. What they truly are, instead of adjectives, are noun adjuncts, forming part of a compound noun. From Wikipedia: "While the notion of compound has been very important, clear definitions that work even within one language (much less across languages) have not been articulated. The study of compounds in English, for example, often includes expressions that are written as two words. This lack of precision and agreement has hampered the cross-linguistic study of compounds and even a good study within English." As you see, the issue needs some exposure, which I hoped to garner here by addressing it when it came up. Since it's obviously a confusing issue even for linguists, don't be frustrated as you try and grasp the subtleties.
What's funny is that walk-on is already attributive use of a verb to form a noun. And then, that precarious noun is being used as a noun adjunct in phrases like "walk-on part" or "walk-on role", dipping into what seems like adjective territory. Oh, English! All I wish to demonstrate right now is that in a case like "walk-on part", "dairy cow", "car park", or "chicken soup" these are noun adjuncts and don't work like other adjectives you could apply. -- Thisis0 23:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
At a practical level concerning WT entries, anything that could be done to reduce the number of pointless adjective PoS sections for nouns would be nice. Some kind of simple notation that simply mentioned that a noun could be and was used as an adjective and allowed a location for corresponding usage examples would be nice. For me the adj inflection line is warranted only if the comparative is possible. A separate adj. PoS section is certainly warranted if there is any new meaning for the adj. not present in the noun. OTOH, I have also noted that sometimes it is hard to quickly and clearly derive an adjectival sense corresponding to a noun sense. Anyway, thanks for the education. DCDuring 00:27, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

whyever

I am confused by this word. What PoS is it in all its various uses? I have entered it as an adverb. It apparently does not appear in many dictionaries despite its fairly frequent use (much in bodice-rippers, potboilers, and ripping yarns). It is very often used in questions where "Why ever" could be substituted. DCDuring 19:47, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's an adverb. I had always thought it should be two words; it's in the OED though, with the earliest quote being from 1891. Widsith 09:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. OED support always makes me feel more comfortable. Someone online had said they didn't have it. End of. DCDuring 12:58, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

hot wind

Media:Example.ogg

could

There's more that could be added to this entry - "Simple past of can" is the only definition we have - there are nuances of politeness here (i.e. "could you help me out" v. "can you help me out"), and there's no mention of its purpose as an auxiliary verb. An etymology too, maybe. s--Keene 14:20, 15 January 2008 (UTC)

Moving to Talk:could. --Keene 14:33, 15 January 2008 (UTC)
(Note to self---must et my finger out and finish that appendix modal verbs that you started some while back.) OK I'll (will=promise) see what I can do in the short term. Yes. All the need to be pulled together into one big, but succinct usage appendix. My backburner project. -- Algrif 13:30, 22 January 2008 (UTC)

word usage

The butterflies loiter around the flower. Is loiter the right word? —This unsigned comment was added by 203.192.59.150 (talk).

Not wrong, but a bit peculiar. Loiter implies wasting time, being lazy....and because of the legal phrase loiter with intent, it has slightly antisocial overtones. Widsith 10:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
There is also the term "loiter time" used by the military, meaning the time that an aircraft can remain close to a ground target but allowing fuel for the return trip. This is closer to the quote above.--Dmol 17:11, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I'm not sure it isn't the first sense that is meant in the quote. Unlike a bee that would be interpreted as busy (making honey, etc), people perceive butterflies as just lazing about. RJFJR 17:17, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

mixed countable/uncountable

Sense 2 of tolerance is countable (e.g. "tolerances stack"). How do we format this? RJFJR 16:43, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

  • See latest version - feel free to correct any other senses that are countable. SemperBlotto 16:52, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. I'll use that format when it comes up in the future now that I've seen it. RJFJR 17:15, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

craftsman

craftsman is defined as "a male craftsperson". While that may be a modern use I believe that historically it could be used non-genderly (what ever the term is for applying to either gender). Even if craftsperson is now preferred by the politically correct, shouldn't we include a note that historically it could be used as a synonym for craftsperson? RJFJR 17:14, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

It certainly needs some kind of note. But can we make the note substantive? I wonder how long the use of the term craftsman to cover all practicioners of a craft was operative. Was that just a brief transition as women left the home and entered some of the crafts, but before they exercised their influence to change some language use? With the amount of attention devoted to women's studies these days, there ought to be some relevant reearch. DCDuring 18:02, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
I just defined a toymaker as a "craftsman who makes toys". (Note term craftsmanship, meaning quality, is still used). I'm not sure where to get the information on historical trends. RJFJR 19:06, 16 January 2008 (UTC)
b.g.c. searches for "woman craftsman", "she was a craftsman", and so on, all pull up relevant hits, over quite a wide date range; so, I think our current definition is simply wrong. Further, "craftsman" gets many more hits than "craftsperson", so I think we should define the latter in terms of the former, not the other way 'round. —RuakhTALK 00:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
How have similar words borne out on WT:BP? My mum was among the first female professional firefighters in the US and there the word, "firefighter", came into common acceptance quite quickly & I saw it in children's books in the 80's. The same kind of books from the UK still showed fireman, postman, & policeman this century though. I don't think I've even heard policeman or fireman from an Australian. I'm not gonna harp on about how much PC is too much or too little but for words that are undergoing transition like Secretaries' Day -> Administrative Professionals' Day or Nigra -> Negro -> Colored -> Black -> African-American, there must be some way to show that both are accepted but one is more/less common and one is on the ascent/descent, right? B} --Thecurran 01:20, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

screwed

Hi, I would appreciate some serious wordsmiths taking a look at the entry screwed. Quite some time ago, I added a quotation that shows 1641 usage of the word by an English merchant, using the word in its sense of "in a lot of trouble" or "beset with unfortunate circumstances that seem difficult or impossible to overcome; in imminent danger." I'm not much of a wordsmith myself so I don't believe I added anything to the definitions, just the example of usage.

This sense has recently been labeled "vulgar/slang" and I am not sure that is correct. Clearly their is a common usage today that is vulgar, and I don't know if slang is also true but maybe so; not for me to say. But I don't really think that the use of the term in the 1641 quotation was either.

So my question is: is this sense of the word labelled properly? Should another sense (or two) be added? Thanks. N2e 04:05, 17 January 2008 (UTC)

Is the quote still on the page? Which one is it? Can you direct me to a copy so we could get more context? DCDuring 04:37, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Assuming it was the uncited quote, I tried Google books to search for it and failed to find it. DCDuring 04:39, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you for taking a look DCDuring. Yes, the quote is still on the screwed page, and it is most definitely fully cited on that page. Here it is, repeated, for your reference: "merchants are in no part of the world so screwed as in England. In Turkey, they have more encouragement." Richard Chambers (merchant), 1641. (Taylor, Hannis, The Origin and Growth of the English Constitution, part II, Houghton Mifflin:Boston, 1898, quoted in
Ekelund, Robert B., Jr. and Hébert, Robert F. (1997) A history of economic theory and method, 4th edition, ISBN 1-57766-381-0, page 58)"
I have the Ekelund and Hébert book on my bookshelf for work I do in Economic History. A somewhat longer quotation, for context, would be: "The episode in question involves Charles I and his battle with Parliament over customs duties. King Charles claimed an "ancient right" to customs, but Parliament ultimately seized the exclusive power to set these duties in 1641. While Parliamenet was dissolved, the King reasserted his claim of absolute authority to levy taxes. However, merchant importers refused, in their own interests, to pay customs to the king, obeying instead Parliament's decree to refuse to pay any dutires not authorized by itself. The King retaliated by seizing the merchants' goods, whereupon several of them resisted and were brought befroe the Privy Council. Merchant Richard Chambers brazenly declared that 'merchants are in no part of the world so screwed as in England. In Turkey, they have more encouragement' (Taylor, Hannis, Origin and Growth of the English Constitution, p. 274)." (In other words, the Ekelund and Hébert book (1997) quotes secondary material from Taylor (1898) which quotes the record of the merchant Chambers' speech before the Privy Council (1641).
I do not know if I have correctly referenced all of this in the Wiktionary entry according to the proper Wiktionary style. I do believe that the 1641 very early usage of this word is, in fact, quite useful to Wiktionary entry, which is why I took the time to add it in two years ago. Cheers, N2e 17:13, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
Let's not woory about the details of format too much. Your citation is a good one. It seems to reflect the sense of "putting pressure on somoeone", {"putting the (thumb-)screws to or on someone"), in this case with the Crown (screwer) doing the screwing of the merchants (screwees). I'll bet that the expression is put in the passive without the screwer being named because to accuse the Crown directly would have been an "impoliteness" that risked the further wrath of the King and his Privy Council. As a result we have an expression that reads just like our use of "screwed" as an adjective, which use requires no particular "screwer" be identified. I like the quote because it illustrates the transition of past participle and passive forms of verbs to adjectives, a fairly frequent occurence, it seems. I am a rank amateur at this, but perhaps one of the true mavens will take a look also.
I don't know when screw got the meaning of copulation. But I don't think it is derived metaphorically from this sense of screw. In any event screwed now carries the sense of "fucked", which makes it hard to use in formal settings and usually gets titters in an undergraduate class.
I'll have to see whether the Privy Council proceedings are now available on-line for the direct quote. If not yours will be fine. Wikitionarians like the sources available on-line because they can readily get more context and can verify. Thanks. DCDuring 18:16, 17 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't know when "screw" came to mean "copulate", but I'm pretty sure swive (related to "swivel") had a copulation sense a long time ago. We currently only have that sense, but I think the original meaning was something like "turn" or "rotate", similar to "screw". Mike Dillon 03:17, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Screw=copulate goes back to at least the 18th century where it appears in some early slang dictionaries. swive has always meant copulate in Middle and modern English, though the OE source swīfan only seems to have meant "move quickly, progress". Widsith 17:30, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
As for the vulgarity - I personally would just tag this slang. It's not quite vulgar by my standards. --Keene 17:35, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks for the opinion on the 'vulgar' tag, Keene. That was my original question. It appears that several folks have edited the article now, and someone has removed the 'vulgar' tag from this one particular sense of the word. Furthermore, since several wordsmiths have looked it over, I will assume the 1641 quotation is now in appropriately handled as far as placemet, format, heading title, etc. N2e 19:18, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
I don't believe that the quote supports the particular use of screwed in the modern sense, even though it reads as if it did. I would defer to the judgment of those with who have more familiarity with Early Modern English than I. DCDuring 19:28, 18 January 2008 (UTC)
On Australian public television in 2006/07, an ad not limited to late night asked if you were being screwed by your mortgage/real estate agent and was accompanied by an image of a screwdriver in action, with a human body replacing the screw. That kind of mainstream usage that I've also heard from politicians makes me believe that it is not universally vulgar. :) --Thecurran 01:04, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

exemplative?

Is there a word (which I'm possibly misspelling) exemplative, an adjective meaning that it makes a good example? RJFJR 21:09, 20 January 2008 (UTC)

600+ raw g.b.c. hits, but not in MW3. It looks like it means what you say. Seems often used in ref. to moral examples. DCDuring 22:37, 20 January 2008 (UTC)
Try, "exemplary". It's definitely a word and it has the right connotation. :) --Thecurran 00:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Need help with Cherokee translation

Need some help we have a black stallion that we want to name black warrior in Cherokee hope you can help wado tee tee —This unsigned comment was added by Hawkstt (talkcontribs) at 23:31, 20 January 2008 (UTC).

gv-na-ge-i a-ya-wis-gi (the "v" is a vowel that is pronounced "uh", as in "but"). —Stephen 00:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Broken Skin

What is this a euphemism for; open wounds, healing wounds, freshly healed wounds, scratches, abrasions, grazes, rashes, hives, itches, eczema, bedsores, heat rashes, hives, inflamed skin, scar tissue, acne, pock marks, keloid scarring, swollen skin, puffy skin, boils, corns, warts, cold sore, leprosied skin, herpetic skin, splinters, or something else? I usually see it on bathroom products in the phrase, "Do not apply to broken skin." and I find it too ambiguous. :) --Thecurran 00:51, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I'll bet it applies to most of the things you say, but a dictionary is not a substitute for medical advice from a professional. A break in the protective membrane seems to be what they are referring to, which would exclude inflammed skin, scar tissue, swellings, rashes. But many conditions could lead to dry skin and cracking which might lead to a break in the skin or a crevice in which, say, an acidic compound could do damage, given enough time. DCDuring 01:02, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

SoP

Can somone, pls, put this in WT:GL#S or SoP? You guys aren't using the one I know and use in Australia, "Standard of Practice". I'm sure I'm not the only one confused here. I'm glad that, "PoS", made it on to PoS, because the Aussie, "POS", means, "point of sale", as in ePos like so many "e-"s or EFTPOS, which means, "electronic funds tranfer [at] POS", and is spoken in every store with any card payment facilities and even most that don't ("Sorry, no EftPOS/EFTPOS"). --Thecurran 01:45, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Sum of Parts - comes up in discussions of idiomaticity of phrases. DCDuring 02:06, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. --Thecurran 07:27, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

g.b.c.

Is this a typo of b.g.c or a new term for WT:GL? --Thecurran 01:54, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

I think I did it. It was supposed to be for Google books. mea culpa. my bad. DCDuring 02:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think it's a blend of "GBS" ("Google Book Search") and "b.g.c" ("books dot google dot com"). —RuakhTALK 02:09, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

+

Is sense 2 really translingual? If so, is there a decent way to indicate that it's informal in English, but not necessarily in other languages? Also, is there a decent way to include English-specific derived terms (such as +ve)? —RuakhTALK 02:03, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

hostage

I am curious as to how to use word "hostage", only in singular or in plural too in such prases as "to hold smb (as a)hostage, to take smb hostage? in Oxford Advanced Learner's Dictionary there are given examples: "Three children were taken hostage during the bank robbery"; "He was held hostage for almost a year". According to these examples, should i conclude that "hostage" can be used only in singular in this (I suppose, fixed expressions)? what does it depend on? Thank you.

I could say: "I took the hostages hostage". It is as if I were saying "I took the hostages into the state of being hostage." or "I took the hostages as hostage." The noun hostage is being used in two senses, one referring to the individual hostages, which can have a plural, another referring to the state of "hostage", which would very rarely be plural (only in some kind of rarified discussion of distinct types of being a hostage}. DCDuring 02:12, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I agree with DCDuring, except that I think it's actually an adjective in those examples. (Compare "he was hostage to …", "the hostage children", etc.) I don't know why we don't list an adjective sense in our entry. —RuakhTALK 02:16, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
MW3 says that the "state of a person given or kept as pledge against performance of an agreement, demand or treaty" sense is "obsolete". But the obsolete sense is pretty close the word's meaning in the "keep/give/hold/take hostage" constructions. DCDuring 02:40, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I would interpret it as a compound verb take hostage, as separate from the noun hostage which is wholly countable. I don't recognise it as an adjective at all, in any of Ruakh's examples - though "hostage children" is attributive. Widsith 18:05, 21 January 2008 (UTC)
I think take hostage merits an entry. It is a nice way to interpret it current usage, whereever it came from. DCDuring TALK 14:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

social work

can someone explain the difference between direct vs indirect social work prcatices ?

to me a direct approach means that you are physically managing a situation. The indirect approach, requires a more administrative or clerical effort. —This unsigned comment was added by 74.94.254.133 (talk).

pantavila/pantavilo

could someone help find the meaning/translation of the word pantavila/pantavilo: a russian woman calls me this whenever we have friction in our relationship; and, she refuses to give me the real meaning/translation, instead, she tells me to look it up!

DESIOER ATA

THIS IS THE HEADING OF A PHILOSPHY WRITTEN ENTIRELY IN OLD ENLISH TEXT. THE WRITING DESCRIBES AN OPEN MINDED OUTLOOK ON LIFE IN GENERAL, YET THE DEFINITION OF THIS HEADING CANNOT BE FOUND. THE REST OF THE PAGE IS WRITTEN CLEARLY BUT THE HEADING IS NOT, CAN YOU HELP ME FIND THE DEFINITION?

  • And it's not old English. It was written only a few decades ago.--Dmol 17:47, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
  • Thank you soo much and please excuse the all caps. Yes it is , desiderata , and it was a gift that my father had given to my mother and she gave to me, many years ago. I never knew where it came from as far as the author, but the message is very profound. Thank you!!!

oblatum

I've added Webster 1913's definition, but there seems to be another: Some academic journals' papers have the word "Oblatum" on them (in the headmatter), followed by a date. (Here's an example, but it's some 800 KB. The word appears just above the abstract on the first page.) Any idea what this is?—msh210 19:05, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

Could it mean "submitted"? The publication date could be well after the date an article was completed. The springerlink protects the text of the article you suggested as an example so I can't tell whether my notion is consistent with the facts of even that article. I would expect that the date after "oblatum" would always be prior to the publication date, but rarely by more than two years, probably varying by discipline. DCDuring TALK 22:43, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I didn't realize it wasn't accessible. The article reads:
Oblatum 20-III-2002 & 30-IX-2002
Published online: 18 December 2002
So you may well be right about its being "submitted", but I really don't know. I suspected it might mean "received", which is not the same thing. (Note that math articles, at least — though I suspect the same is true in other disciplines — get resubmitted after the referee's recommendations are taken care of. (The paper linked to above is a math paper.))—msh210 23:01, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
I should have mentioned that oblatum is past participle of Latin offrere (to offer). An oblate is someone who has offered/dedicated their life to God. The only real possibilities for a publication were "dedicated" or "submitted". DCDuring TALK 23:42, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
Oh, well, then, you (or someone else who knows enough Latin) can add that L2 section, and we have a winner for the other English sense, I think. Thanks.—msh210 05:57, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
The etymologies for oblate and oblatum, referring to a flattened sphere can't be the same as for the sense having to do with offering, submission. Could they come from ob "in front" and the root verb ferro meaning carry in the sense of "pregnant"? DCDuring TALK 12:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I think there is some confusion here. Classical Latin oblatus is a form of the verb offero (offer) and is the source of the English oblation. But English oblate (in the sense of a flattened sphere) doesn't seem to come from this word. The OED gives it as a medieval or modern Latin coinage from ob- + lātus (broad, wide), an hence "spread(ing) out, widening out", which makes much more sense anyway. I see that this has already been corrected in the entry. --EncycloPetey 00:32, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

lap

lap#Etymology_3: to slurp up (a liquid) as a dog. And slurp is defined as: to eat/drink (something) noisily. Is this what lap means? I thought it meant to lick something (and hence, usually, eat it). Consider

    • 2000, Robert B. Parker, Hugger Mugger, chapter 1,
      "I was at Claiborne Farms once and actually met Secretariat," I said. "He gave me a large lap."
      He smiled a painted smile. Horse people, I have noticed, are not inclined to think of horses in terms of how, or even if, they kiss.

msh210 22:15, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I would have defined it the way the entry reads, pretty much. Connected to liquids, ice cream, and, perhaps, pate and kibble. I wouldn't have gone for "lick" as a sense, although the meaning of contact from the animal's tongue in the quote is consistent with my understanding of the word. But, then, I have a dog. DCDuring TALK 22:31, 23 January 2008 (UTC)
My understanding agrees with the entry. I remember a Bible stories book I had as a kid describing a battle before which, among other things, H' instructed the men to drink water from a river, and only a small portion of the men did so by lapping up water like dogs instead of by cupping their hands and bringing water to their mouths. It definitely used the word lap. —RuakhTALK 02:42, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
But that can mean lick, no?—msh210 17:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I think maybe the reason it seems confusing is because it's always used with up, which could make you think that in itself it just means "lick" - because you could equally say "lick up water" or whatever. But the primary sense of lap, with or without "up", always had the sense of getting liquid into your mouth by use of your tongue. Widsith 09:50, 25 January 2008 (UTC)

lackadaisical

I'm a little surprised that this one hasn't seen more controversy; perhaps the alternate pronunciation is regional?

I've never heard this pronounced the way the audio file currently on it, sounds. For some reason, when I saw this as a Word-of-the-day, I was shocked that we could have such a grotesque misspelling of laxsidaysical on our main page. (Then I looked it up. Ouch.) While lacksidaisical gets enough b.g.c. hits to probably merit an entry, that particular pronunciation-spelling lacks the lax prefix that I was convinced was etymologically related, somehow.

Anyone able to identify what regions the "lac" + sibilant + "idaisical" pronunciation is specific to? Furthermore, do we want the alternate spelling entered as an entry? If so, how should it be listed/described? Is the connotation with lax completely ephemeral, or is there a reference about it that I didn't find? Thanks in advance,

--Connel MacKenzie 06:03, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

It's just a mistake – a common one – based on assimilation with lax, and is not limited to any one region. This is what we call an eggcorn. Perhaps laxadaisical warrants a {{misspelling of}} entry, it's certainly common enough. Widsith 09:14, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Thank you. Yes, I did see "Common Errors in English Usage" come up on one of my searches. What I'm talking about here seems to be original research, so I hesitate to add anything about it to actual entries. Sorry if it seems like I'm suggesting new entries: I'm really not, I'd just like to satisfy my curiosity. My earlier point, is that that particular assimilation with lax has forced the proscribed pronunciation to be primary in some regions (at least where I grew up.) So my questions grow now: why is the variation proscribed? The assimilation itself is reasonable. Being descriptive do we assert only the prescribed variant, or should there be mention of the proscribed pronunciation (and if so, what description fits?) Also, is it only assimilation with lax, as I thought at first, or borne from the natural elision of the full-stopping "K-uh" transformed into a "zih" sound? About the eggcorn assertion: are you saying the "lacsidasical" pronunciation is common in the UK too? The more I look at the variants that are out there, the more my curiosity about this grows. --Connel MacKenzie 17:32, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
It's proscribed just because in prescriptive terms it's simply "wrong" and is not a real word found in any printed dictionaries. As a descriptive site though we should definitely have it - yes it's common in the UK as well. But I think a "common misspelling" entry is more appropriate than a "alternative spelling" only because if you use this in an essay or job application you wouldn't last long! Widsith 09:48, 25 January 2008 (UTC)
I must admit I had never heard it any other way than "laxidaisical." It wasn't until Connel put it in the Tea Room that I noticed there was no x or ks, etc. How odd. Seems to me that it might be worthwhile to provide an alternative pronunciation within the current spelling. Atelaes 09:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
I've always heard [ks] said but seen <ck> written. However, laxadaisical does get a number of uses on b.g.c., as do various other spellings that attempt to reflect the [ks]. —RuakhTALK 13:20, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
For what it's worth, I've heard both, but more often /k/ alone, which is what I say, too. I've only ever (as far as I recall) seen <ck>.—msh210 17:18, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

beingness

The state or quality of being being? What's that meant to mean?--Keene 15:41, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

As opposed for example to the state or quality of being doing, or doingness; also the state or quality of being nothing, or nothingness. Did this word exist in English before the first translations interpretations of Hegel, I wonder. -- Visviva 15:44, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
By all appearances, it did not. [29] It would seem that we have Stirling's Secret of Hegel to thank for this. (although it might have cropped up independently in translations of Rosmini's work.) This is basically a translation of Seiendheit, I believe (not to be confused with Seiendsein, or "being-a-being"). In the Hegelian system this has a particular significance related to the emergence of being-there from the interaction of being and not-being; not sure how best to express that in a definition though. -- Visviva 15:54, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

wingspan

wingspan is listed as uncountable. Is it sometimes countable as wingspans? RJFJR 17:00, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

I'd think so, e.g. "I was comparing the wingspans of the two planes" sounds right to me --Keene 17:02, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Adding {{context|usually in singular}} seems reasonable. --Connel MacKenzie 17:35, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Any Surfers out there who know surf jargon?

{{}}Hello I wish to add a word to the wiktionary: bitchen. It is a surf term meaning really neat, groovey, outtasite etc. It is the ultimate in desireable............

I think it's spelled bitchin', which we should have, agreed. We do have bitching, note.—msh210 21:06, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
We have a few surfing terms and wouldn't mind a few more. Put in any suggestions here (for now) and in Requested entries. DCDuring TALK 21:17, 24 January 2008 (UTC)
Even better, put what you know into Appendix:Glossary_of_surfing_terms. There are some 200-300 terms in there. Most of them are already in the main dictionary and most (not all) of what we have is in there. Bitchin/bitchen/bitchin's/bitching isn't in there because it is not, strictly speaking, about surfing and is used by a larger subculture. DCDuring TALK 15:28, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

dinnae

See the talk page.—msh210 21:21, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Now fixed.—msh210 17:23, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

In contrast to / By contrast

Can someone explain the difference in usage between 'by contrast' and 'in contrast'. In past I have used 'In contrast, we assumed ... ' or 'In contrast to our assumption...' (not necessarily to mean the same thing). A search of Wiktionary past archives only turns up the expression 'by contrast' once.

What is heat resistance certificate of copper busbar ?

what is heat resistance certificate of copper busbar ? —This unsigned comment was added by 213.42.21.153 (talk).

You'd probably have better luck at Wikipedia with such a question, for example here. This is a dictionary. Atelaes 08:34, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Ka

Is it possible to create an entry at "Ka" (without using the <sub>a</sub> formatting, that is)? This is a scientific symbol used to denote an acid dissociation constant, and should have an entry if that is technically possible. Cheers! bd2412 T 08:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

You could use the Unicode character for subscript-a, viz. . (does that display correctly in your browser? mine neither.) But an entry at Ka with an appropriate note might be more suitable (and searchable). -- Visviva 10:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Hmmm. Searchability is a good point. I'll do that. bd2412 T 10:34, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
We do have the entry Ka with that sense. It is typeable, searchable and simple;.however, it might deserve a usage note about often being Ka. RJFJR 14:55, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Actually, I just checked and it's at Ka but the headword beneath the part of speech is written as Ka. Might still warrant a note saying this since it can be overlooked (I did). RJFJR 14:57, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
That's because bd2412 just created it. :-)   I've now added the usage note. —RuakhTALK 16:48, 27 January 2008 (UTC)
Of interest may be T2.—msh210 17:11, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks, but I'm not a Schwarzenegger fan. DAVilla 01:22, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Polyspast

I would very much like to discuss this word. On the page, I have written the various forms which have come up as translations in dictionaries on GoogleBooks. But they are still translations to be checked - I don't know if this word has died in any of those languages. To what extent is this exactly the same as block and tackle? I'm also confused because interwikis on wikipedia take you to all sorts of different pages, obviously a lot of languages express this machine in different ways. If anybody has any information or can check the translations, that would be appreciated. Harris Morgan 00:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC).

skiddlydoo

Todays' word is skedaddle. I didn't knot that one. However, I think I have heard an American-English word, or interjection rather, which has a similar sound. I tried to google skiddlydoo but got just a handful of hits. Google suggested I try skullydoo instead. Are there any Americans who can tell me what my word is? __meco 10:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Possibly w:23 skidoo? -- Visviva 14:26, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
Or w:skidamarink?—msh210 17:09, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
I think we are in the general ballpark, but I hope we can get a bit closer still. __meco 19:29, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

statism

The only definition given (English noun) is: "A belief in the importance of the power of the state over an individual, used to describe more extreme views." I'm okay with the first part of the definition, but am unsure about the correctness of the last part. As I see the word used in the social science literature (principally economics and sociology), I don't find it implying extreme views. In other words, I think it definitely has a use in vernacular English today of implying only "A belief in the importance of the power of the state over an individual." -- with no sense of the extreme-ness of the view. N2e 19:17, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Maybe put the "extreme views" bit under "Usage notes" with "sometimes used to ..." I would have trouble proving such usage, but I've heard it. Putting an "-ism" on something is a little like putting "scare quotes" around it. DCDuring TALK 19:40, 28 January 2008 (UTC)
On a side note, shouldn't Category:English nouns ending in -ism be at Category:English nouns ending in "-ism" for the sake of consistency? bd2412 T 19:49, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

Hmm, I have always called this étatisme. Widsith 15:12, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Okay, I edited the page along the lines of the discussion above, and added a comment to the talk page. Feel free to look it over, modify, and/or remove the rft if appropriate. I don't know what the culture is for leaving the rft on a word for a certain amount of time, or not. N2e 14:39, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

information search

Looking for information and location of BUSCHOLT GERMANY

Try an atlas or maps website. Maybe a Gazetteer. You are currently on a dictionary website, which is not a good place to look for this information. --EncycloPetey 02:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

E. & O. E

E. & O. E? I'm looking for the terminology "E. & O. E." mention in International Commercial Invoices. I tried looking for it but could not find anything helpful. Can anyone help me get to the right source of information. —This unsigned comment was added by Shootingstar77 (talkcontribs).

If you could add a bit of context, it may help. Atelaes 05:54, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
  • It means "exceptions (or errors) and omissions excluded (or excepted)" and is normally written E&OE. SemperBlotto 12:03, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

be successful

I'm hesitating about making this entry. Reasons for: translation is difficult. In Spanish it would be a verb form tener exito or dar resultado. Other languages the same? OTOH it would be just SoP in English, wouldn't it? Comments please. -- Algrif 11:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Isn't "to be successful" just the same as "to succeed"? I would translate the Italian riuscire as either just as well. SemperBlotto 12:01, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Doesn't "be successful" refer more to a durable state than succeed does? It does seem very SoP to me in English, but many distinctions elude me. What are you trying to capture by entering it? DCDuring TALK 12:18, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
It's possibly more than SoP because by default it means more than having success in a particular area, it means having success in life. But then, succeed can mean that too, so I'm not really supporting its creation.
Looking at translations isn't going to tell you whether an expression is idiomatic though. Tener exito is also SoP, just like tener calor, which failed an RFD. There's the same problem with tener hambre = be hungry. Could this be handled with usage notes on both the English and the Spanish side? DAVilla 00:58, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
That's why I brought it here first. OK I think usage notes is probably the best way to go with this one. Thanks. -- Algrif 12:34, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Proper nouns following articles

Is there a word that describes proper nouns that follow articles, e.g. the United Kingdom (I live in the United Kingdom v. I live in United Kingdom); United Arab Emirates; Golden Gate Bridge; Soviet Union; White House. Forgive me if this discussion's arisen before. --Keene 17:35, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

United Kingdon and United Arab Emirates and Soviet Union take the because they are plural or collective. Every proper noun that's plural or collective does so; another is Netherlands. Certain other proper nouns do, too, such as Ukraine (dated), Congo (dated), Sudan (dated), all oceans, and many (all?) rivers. This topic comes up periodically on the Usenet newsgroup alt.usage.english, which you can search at Google Groups; here's one sample thread on this topic and here's another post (whose thread you might also wish to check out).—msh210 18:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I should note that as a general rule, AUE is a good resource for questions on English usage. It's populated by users of English, not (for the most part) linguists, though some have some training. Google Groups makes its archives accessible.—msh210 18:30, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Don't most nouns require an article? I play "a" cello or "the" cello, not so much "I play cello". I mean, you can say it, but it's less literate. bd2412 T 21:14, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
Sure, but that's not true for proper nouns. While on my boat, Secretariat, on Lake Superior, I spoke to John about going to New York to see Gracie Mansion.msh210 22:33, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
I believe the Cambridge Grammar of the English Language calls these “weak” proper nouns (as opposed to “strong” proper nouns, which can stand alone), but I don't know if that's widespread usage. If you want to be fancy, I suppose you could describe them as “arthrous”. :-) —RuakhTALK 00:31, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

walk into

I'm a teacher of English (but not native speaker) and I can't solve this question: Two people collide in the street and we say: "Tom walked into that teenager". Or we could say "That teenager walked into Tom", but is it possible for both to walk into one another? What verb should we use instead? : Bumped into? Ran into? Thanks —This comment was unsigned.

I would say "Tom and the teenager bumped into each other." However, this could mean "met" rather than "collided". SemperBlotto 22:50, 29 January 2008 (UTC)
"Walk into" = collide; "bumped into" and "ran into" imply accidental meeting. Ignore the impossible geometry. We could actually say "Jack and Jill walked into each other", implying that the collision was not Jack's fault more than Jill's. DCDuring TALK 22:56, 29 January 2008 (UTC)

Is this a phrasal verb? DAVilla 00:47, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Yes, it is. Added. -- Algrif 12:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Dutch courage pejorative

Following the comment at Talk:Dutch courage, can this be pejorative - I had always assumed not, but then again there are those who can find anything derogatory. Conrad.Irwin 00:45, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Almost any of the ethnic/racial/religious/gender/sex-pref/hair-color/nationalisty/disability-based labels of supposed behavior or attibutes could be viewed as insulting and are sometimes intended that way. Maybe we need boilerplate language for Usage notes that could be modified to suit individual entries. I think the term "pejorative" means that the sense labelled is insulting to the person addressed or described. If so, that tag doesn't do the job. DCDuring TALK 03:04, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
Created {{offensive to}} and took it for a test drive in Dutch courage#Usage notes. Improvements welcome. -- Visviva 07:24, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
It's a good idea, but I wonder what proportion of "offensive-to" terms fall into the "may be considered" category instead of the "is sometimes considered" or "is often considered" or "is usually considered" or "used to be considered" categories? "May be considered" is probably a good default, but maybe it would be nice to support other values? —RuakhTALK 13:07, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
You're saying add another parameter that takes value of (-,sometimes (default), often, usually, formerly) and generates a smooth sentence. DCDuring TALK 14:56, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Thanks. I had more elaborate thoughts in mind, but what you've done is better for entries. Perhaps it would be nice if we had a link to some WP article or WT entry or appendix on the subject of offensive language, that helps folks intellectualize the perceived insult, understand WT's descriptiveness, see that it might be jocularly intended, etc. Actually, I doubt that an ordinary WT entry is good enough. I think it needs a paragraph (or more). I'll search later. Does anyone know of such material? DCDuring TALK 13:18, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
If this is even necessary, which I'm hesitant to agree with, might I suggest a simpler form than the present? Anything more than the following could be written out afterwards:
{{offensive to}} {{offensive to|}} {{offensive to|-}}
This term may be considered offensive.
{{offensive to|...}}
This term is considered offensive to ....
An additional option of offendee= is not a parameter that would see use elsewhere, so is somewhat superfluous. DAVilla 16:08, 31 January 2008 (UTC)
Well, the "offendee" parameter can certainly be dropped (I can't think of any reason this would need to take advantage of MediaWiki's differences in handling numbered vs. named params, I've just gotten in the habit of allowing for both). But I think the primary application of this is to words which may specifically be considered offensive to someone other than the person actually described or addressed; more ordinary cases are already handled by {{pejorative}}, {{vulgar}}, et al. Because of this I don't see much use for a version which does not specify the offendee in some way. -- Visviva 17:09, 31 January 2008 (UTC)

Mother-in-law

Help!

What is the possessive form of "Mother-in-Law?"

Is it "Mother's-in-Law" or "Mother-in-Law's?" —This unsigned comment was added by FolkExplorer (talkcontribs) at 19:42, 29 January 2008.

The latter: mother-in-law's. Atelaes 01:44, 30 January 2008 (UTC)
English nouns don't really have possessive forms; instead, we just tack -'s onto the end of the phrases they head. —RuakhTALK 01:55, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

resolve

On this page: http://linguistlist.org/issues/18/18-3770.html, the word ‘resolve’ is used as a noun. Could someone please add the noun sense, with the appropriate quote? H. (talk) 10:52, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Good catch. I added "# Determination, will power." RJFJR 12:06, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

February 2008

Roman a clef

How is this phrase pronounced? It appears to be a style employed by Hugo, among others. Are there well known examples of this style in English writings? —This unsigned comment was added by Kare (talkcontribs) at 03:17, 1 February 2008 (UTC).

In French, it's spelled roman à clef and pronounced /rɔmɑ̃ a kle/ (that's an IPA representation of the pronunciation); I've never heard it in English, but I'd assume it's pronounced roughly "roe-MAHN ah CLAY". As for your second question, you've come to the wrong place: this is a dictionary. You might fare better at our sister project Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia. —RuakhTALK 11:55, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

right of way

google books:"pedestrians always have the right of way" disagrees with our current definition for sense #1, but I don't know quite how to phrase it properly. —RuakhTALK 12:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

It should say something like "the right of one user of a road, path etc. to temporarily halt the passage of another during his own use of it". (It's used on golf courses as well as the public highway) SemperBlotto 12:39, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

Do the air and marine worlds use this term this way also? Does the word "priority" help? DCDuring TALK 14:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
They do; I added an illustrative cite for this. Think the definition is a bit clearer now, but still not quite ideal. -- Visviva 16:02, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
If perhaps not ideal, certainly excellent. DCDuring TALK 16:21, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
  • Since we're having tea here anyway, does anyone have thoughts on whether the sense "land on which a right of way exists" is meaningfully distinct from the sense "area cleared and modified for passage, such as for a railway or canal"? For example, when we read that two people "crept along the subway right-of-way with their weapons drawn," ([30], self-published but never mind that) does this really mean that they crept "along the area on which a subway right of way had been designated"? Or is the roadway/railway/canalway sense distinct? I keep disagreeing with myself on this one, need an outside opinion. :-) -- Visviva 17:05, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Your case involves action in the world outside conference rooms and courtrooms, which warrants a sense. The physical and legal senses overlap, but are distinct, even in the properties referred to. From my knowledge of railroad history, there are numerous cases of "rights-of-way" being obtained (legal sense) (including by outright purchase, option, easement, and all the other means of devise that lawyers have devised) without there being any physical modification or use of it for an actual railroad. In any event there is a transition period and the courts sometimes don't care about the physical modification bit. I wonder whether the two legal senses should be combined into one that includes implicitly all possible means of acquiring sufficient rights. Finally, "The [old] right of way was completely overgrown before the County built the bikepath." illustrates that there may be no remaining "clearance", no remaining legal right of way and still the word could be used, though I wouldn't think we need a sense for that. DCDuring TALK 17:36, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

lamelle

What are these things called in English? Referrring to the strips of material hanging by the window. shutters?--Keene 13:34, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

In the U.S., blinds or window blinds, or more specifically, vertical blinds or track blinds. Dunno about usage elsewhere. —RuakhTALK 13:47, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

apheticism

apheticism - what does it mean? I first ran across it in the article for twit: 'Originally twite, an apheticism of atwite.' When I googled it, there were a few other Wiki pages where it had been used, but I can't find a definition anywhere. I also tried my Oxford Dictionary, but no luck. I would guess it means something like 'a gradual corruption of a word', but does anyone know more? Thanks. —This unsigned comment was added by 84.67.228.109 (talk) at 13:51, 1 February 2008 (UTC).

Presumably it's an erroneous or rare variant of aphesis. —RuakhTALK 14:26, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

grammar

ecdysiast (today's WOTD) is currently defined as "An erotic dancer who removes their clothes as a form of entertainment; a stripper. " The problem is that "An...who" is singular but "their" is plural. Should "their" be changed to "his or her" (or is there a better way of recasting this sentence?) RJFJR 13:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

See their (pronoun, sense 2). Is used in singular for a person of unknown gender. Yes it sounds a bit odd, but is standard usage. Robert Ullmann 14:35, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Interesting. It's certainly acceptable at many levels of discourse to the extent of barely being noticed. WT's own English seems to me to migrate toward a style that is sometimes almost formal, sometimes academic, or more often comparable to the "better" newspapers and the newsweeklies like Time. What would they do? (hard to research on Google, though) The desire to be brief and avoid diverting people's attention from what they are looking for would argue (weakly) against "his or her". Perhaps we can think of an alternative working in our copious free time. DCDuring TALK 14:56, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
I didn't really like "his or her" but felt we should aspire to ecellence in grammar as well as vocabulary. How about "An erotic dancer who undresses as a form of entertainment; a stripper." That avoids the whole problem (but undresses may introduce slight differences of meaning). RJFJR 17:52, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
Agree that "their" is awful and should be shot on sight; not all usages that merit inclusion are suitable to be followed. I also agree that "his or her" is not ideal, but don't see any alternative... "undresses" by itself leaves the reader in doubt as to who is being undressed. -- Visviva 15:10, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps surpisingly, The Chicago Manual of Style appears to be silent on this issue. --EncycloPetey 05:23, 2 February 2008 (UTC)
Perhaps we could put the definition under ecdysiasts and make ecdysiast "singular form of ecdysiasts". &;)) DCDuring TALK 16:52, 2 February 2008 (UTC)

épépiner

Do we have a word for "to remove pips from a fruit"? depip/unpip maybe? --Keene 14:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

For a stone fruit: pit (verb). For others: seed (verb) remove seeds from; a sense we don't have but should. Robert Ullmann 14:29, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The second sense is deseed according to the OED. SemperBlotto 17:10, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

go, get or come out of tune

Hello, I am a french contributor to the french Wiktionary. I rod in your page out of tune : the violin go out of tune .... I know one can say also to get ... or to come and I would like to know if there is a best practice. A first check on internet did not really help me making up my mind. Could anybody tell me if one form is better than the other ? Thanks in advance, Eric Rogliano

I would always say "it goes out of tune" - Though, possibly things can also "become out of tune". Hope that helps Conrad.Irwin 19:25, 1 February 2008 (UTC)
The actual quote he was citing was "Violins go out of tune" (They go out of tune). RJFJR 20:59, 1 February 2008 (UTC)

"The violin is getting/going out of tune" seem OK. "The violin is out of tune". "The violin is coming out of tune" doesn't sound right at all. "The violin is becoming out of tune" also seems OK, but somehow doesn't seem as good, though I can't say why. DCDuring TALK 04:49, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

Nonstandard "i"?

Can anyone post a nonstandard "i"? See User Talk:Language Lover/nonstandard digits to see what I mean. Language Lover 04:31, 3 February 2008 (UTC)

There are some nonstandard "i" characters in the math-related Unicode blocks, but they all have very specific font-requirements and they're in the extended Unicode range (SMP) and have very limited font support. This search finds a lot of them, mostly in the "Mathematical Alphanumeric Symbols" block. Mike Dillon 03:37, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
Here's another search for the same.msh210 17:45, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

aphetized

Does the word aphetize exist, at the level necessary for Wiktionary inclusion? I came to the annoying conclusion that it does not, based on b.g.c. hits; however, aphetized certainly does. It appears that it may have an OED entry, however. What would be the optimal way for us to cover this sort of lexicographical singularity? Or are the necessary citations lurking out there somewhere? -- Visviva 08:05, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

No help yet with the cites, but MW3 also has an entry for "aphetize". DCDuring TALK 12:22, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
One cite is available on b.g.c. for "aphetise". DCDuring TALK 12:30, 4 February 2008 (UTC)
All I can see is a dictionary of anagrams and something in German. -- Visviva 01:28, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Sorry, thought I saw something more menaingful. My mind must have played a trick on me. wishful thinking DCDuring TALK 01:46, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
The OED does have an entry for aphetize, but its quotations both use the -ed form (one in an ordinary eventive passive construction, and one as a modifier for a following noun, either as a reduced resultative passive, or as a participial adjective). —RuakhTALK 00:26, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
Hmm... well, this is annoying. I mean, this isn't a defective verb in the usual sense; someone could come along and use "aphetizing" in a sentence tomorrow and no one would think twice about it. But because it is so infrequently used, only one form is actually attested. On top of this, it seems that story of this term's entry into the OED might be interesting fodder for a "Dictionary notes" section. So are we better off compromising our principles by having an entry at aphetize (and aphetise), or compromising our comprehensiveness by having none? It's a pity Goedel wasn't a lexicographer... -- Visviva 14:50, 5 February 2008 (UTC)
I had a related experience with spectacled. The problem also seems to come up more in the heavily inflected historical languages where there are plenty of unattested forms including the ones usually considered the lemma forms. To a lesser extent the problem even comes up in English for rare plurals, rare comparatives, and, especially, rare superlatives. I would argue for formalizing weaker attestation for inflected forms. Unattested lemma forms are a little tougher, but if past and present participles are attested in English, you would think that should make it much easier to buy off on the infinitive and 3rd p sing. Also, you would think that alternative spellings (UK and US; hyphenated, spaced, and unspaced; u.c. and l.c.) would provide evidence about inflected forms. Unfortunately, none of the generalized rule easings I have in mind would help "aphetize/ise" because there seems to be no use of the infinitive or 3rd p singular or present participle in the convenient media accepted for attestation. That makes it seem more like "spectacled". DCDuring TALK 15:23, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

Request

give me a word which means a person is interested in a particular field —This unsigned comment was added by Sahaana (talkcontribs).

    • example: "He’s a history buff." (note, I'd take it to imply an ameteur in the field of interest) RJFJR 16:41, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

past of belay

Is the past of belay belaid or belayed? RJFJR 04:30, 5 February 2008 (UTC)

"belayed" "rope" gets 10 times the hits of "belaid" "rope" on b.g.c. DCDuring TALK 11:22, 5 February 2008 (UTC)